1 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 1: Hi. 2 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 2: I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, 3 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 2: and speaker. 4 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:19,240 Speaker 3: And I'm Sarah hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer, 5 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 3: and course creator. We are two working parents who love 6 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:24,080 Speaker 3: our careers and our families. 7 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 2: Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about 8 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 2: how real women manage work, family, and time for fun. 9 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 2: From figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals. 10 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 2: We want you to get the most out of life. 11 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. This 12 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:44,959 Speaker 1: episode is. 13 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 2: Airing at the end of May of twenty twenty four. 14 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:50,839 Speaker 2: Sarah is going to be interviewing Ellen Golinski, whose new 15 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 2: book is about All Things adolescents. So, Sarah, maybe you 16 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 2: can tell us a little bit about that. 17 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, this book is well. Actually, I'm going to mention 18 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 3: first that Ellen Golenski is amazing. She's had just such 19 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 3: a long career of writing about things that she has 20 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 3: found interesting, and a lot of times those things have 21 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 3: kind of mirrored different experiences in her life. She's written 22 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 3: about young children, she's written about working parenthood. I'm actually 23 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:17,479 Speaker 3: surprised we haven't talked to her about that. Specifically, as 24 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 3: she is very much in favor of women having choices 25 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 3: about what they do and how that children can thrive 26 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:27,680 Speaker 3: under different types of circumstances. But more recently she's focused 27 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 3: on the teen years and wrote a very comprehensive book 28 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:33,959 Speaker 3: called The Breakthrough Years, putting together her own kind of 29 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 3: unique style of research and findings and a lot of 30 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 3: kind of primary source material from teens themselves. She went 31 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 3: right to the real source here, which I think is 32 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 3: refreshing and really really cool. So definitely a fun book 33 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 3: to check out. But Laura, you're a teen expert too 34 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 3: at this point, I feel like when you. 35 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 2: Say yes, so yeah, I now have a seventeen year 36 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 2: old and a fourteen year old and a twelve year 37 00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 2: old in addition to my younger kids. So we've been 38 00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 2: in the teen years for several years now, have several 39 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 2: more years to go in it. 40 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 1: But I'm actually really really liking them. I don't know. 41 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 2: I mean, you hear various horror stories about teenagerhood or whatever, 42 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:16,959 Speaker 2: but it seems good. I mean, I guess you don't 43 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:20,920 Speaker 2: quite have teens yet. You're getting there, No, I don't. 44 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 3: But I love listening to you chat about the things 45 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 3: that you do with your teens, the different trips you take, 46 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 3: the one on one time you spend together, and at 47 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 3: least for my observation of your stories, I feel like 48 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 3: you've really enjoyed those times and enjoyed these years a lot. 49 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 3: So I'm more excited about it than I am scared 50 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 3: at this point. 51 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think I don't know that I 52 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 2: have any particular advice or expertise because every kid is 53 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:48,639 Speaker 2: so different, But I think one thing that's been very 54 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 2: helpful for me, because you know, so I'm just passing 55 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 2: this along as a tip, is just to you know, 56 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,800 Speaker 2: if your kid annoys you about something they have done that's, 57 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 2: you know, within the realm of normal adolescent behavior, you 58 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 2: might just remind yourself of how much. 59 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: Worse it could be. 60 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 2: So if there are, for instance, I don't know, food 61 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:13,079 Speaker 2: wrappers all over the car that the child borrowed, or 62 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 2: if there's dirty laundry in the hall, or I don't know, 63 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 2: I mean, those aren't particularly things that we've had problem with, 64 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:20,800 Speaker 2: but I'm just saying those as hypotheticals. 65 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:24,959 Speaker 1: Here. You could tell yourself, like I mean, your. 66 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 2: Kid could be addicted to drugs, your kid could be 67 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 2: in trouble with the law. I mean, there's so many 68 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 2: worse things that could happen. And if those things were 69 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 2: the case, and you were offered the choice of like, hey, 70 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 2: you could have that, or you could have dirty laundry 71 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 2: in the hall, what would you like? 72 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: You'd be like, oh, dirty laundry. Give me the dirty laundry. 73 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: I'm thrilled about the dirty laundry. And so maybe it 74 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: just helps to have that as your mindset to begin with. 75 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 3: I love it. Do you feel like teens of today 76 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 3: And I don't know I'm going out on a limb 77 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 3: here with this one, but do you feel like teens 78 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 3: are more interested in hanging out with their parents compared 79 00:03:57,720 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 3: to when we were teens? 80 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 1: I think they're There is some evidence that that is 81 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: the case. 82 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 2: That people are not as it can be viewed positively 83 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 2: or negatively. I mean, there's something to be said about 84 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 2: adolescents and establishing your own independence, and people complain about 85 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 2: young people needing their parents to intervene in all sorts 86 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:21,279 Speaker 2: of college decisions or even in job applications, which seems 87 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 2: crazy because those are of course markers of adulthood. But 88 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 2: on the other hand, like it's not a bad thing 89 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:30,720 Speaker 2: that your young adult child wants to have a relationship 90 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,280 Speaker 2: with you. That's actually pretty awesome. And so if that 91 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 2: is a development over time, I'm here for it. Like 92 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 2: if my kids want to hang out with me, I 93 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 2: am very excited about that and flattered that that might 94 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:42,239 Speaker 2: be the case. 95 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:43,480 Speaker 1: I love it. 96 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 3: Well. I'm excited for everyone to listen to this interview 97 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 3: because I learned so much from Ellen, and I'm sure 98 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 3: you will too well. I am so excited to welcome 99 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 3: author and researcher extraordinaire Ellen Golinski to the podcast. She 100 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 3: recently released a book called The Breakthrough Years, which you 101 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 3: are going to talk about, but she's had an incredible 102 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 3: career even before that as well. So Ellen, welcome. Can 103 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:07,679 Speaker 3: you introduce yourself a little bit to our listeners. 104 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 4: I think of myself as a research adventurer because I've 105 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 4: spent my whole life following questions, questions that I don't 106 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 4: really know the answers to, and questions that I think matter. 107 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 4: And it's an extraordinary way to live a life. It 108 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,280 Speaker 4: really is, because you can wander into all kinds of 109 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:30,280 Speaker 4: places and talk to all kinds of people when you're 110 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 4: following your questions and finding things that then you try 111 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 4: to translate into action. So started when I was a teacher. 112 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 4: Actually I was a teacher of young children, and I 113 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 4: know what we thought we were teaching them, but I 114 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 4: didn't know what they were actually learning. So they were 115 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 4: preschool kids. So I made a model classroom and asked 116 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 4: them to pretend to be at school. And their visions 117 00:05:56,120 --> 00:06:00,279 Speaker 4: of school were so different than the actual experiences that 118 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 4: we thought we were giving them. It was shocking. You know. 119 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 4: They had the very cultural This was a school where 120 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:11,480 Speaker 4: the kids chose activities, They had a lot of hands 121 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 4: on experience. The schools that they made these little children were, 122 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 4: you know, little rows of desks and raise your hand, 123 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 4: and the culture what a school is was so strongly 124 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 4: influencing them. Even then, I have found in throughout the 125 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 4: years that the answers are not what we would expect. 126 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 4: It's just a very exciting life. When I had a 127 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 4: first child, I wondered about how we as a culture 128 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 4: helped people transition into parenthood, and then wrote a book 129 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:48,280 Speaker 4: about that. Sometimes I start with the idea of a book, 130 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 4: sometimes I don't, but that began a book that just 131 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:54,720 Speaker 4: was in me, that was bursting out. I just had, 132 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 4: I had to write that one, and then I got 133 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 4: interested in how parents grow, and there wasn't very much literature, 134 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 4: so I had to actually do an exploratory study, and 135 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 4: that became a book, and I started to do series 136 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 4: of studies. After doing research on wrote a book about childcare. 137 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 4: In the United States, childcare was seen as very evil 138 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 4: at the time, stranger danger. You know, you wouldn't why 139 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 4: shouldn't you just stay at home and take care of 140 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 4: your children? But increasingly that wasn't the reality of most 141 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 4: people's lives, and so I wanted to find good childcare 142 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 4: around the country and look at what made it work, 143 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 4: and that became a book. And then in listening to 144 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 4: those the stories of parents and the stories of families. 145 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 4: When we were interviewing and doing the research for the 146 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 4: book on childcare, I began to see that there was 147 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 4: the secret thing that people had. It didn't even have 148 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 4: a name, but it was managing work in family life. 149 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 4: So we're talking a while ago. But it wasn't cold 150 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 4: work in family life. It wasn't cold work life. If 151 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 4: it wasn't called any of those sorts of things. Then 152 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 4: then I started an organization and did a series of 153 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 4: studies and in the course of doing those studies, I 154 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 4: wanted to interview not only the spouse of the employee, 155 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 4: because we were doing studies about the employees, I wanted 156 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 4: to also interview the kids. And I found that kids 157 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 4: it was like the image that I had was that 158 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 4: parents and children were looking through the same picture window, 159 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 4: but they were seeing different scenery, a whole different vista, 160 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 4: very different. And so that led me into what became 161 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 4: a book called Ask the Children, which is how kids 162 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 4: feel about their working parents and so on. You know, 163 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 4: some of the books are intentional, some of them aren't. 164 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 4: But often when I feel like I have enough to 165 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 4: say and people don't know it, and it's often about 166 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 4: bursting the miss you know, the assumptions that we make, 167 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 4: then it becomes a book. 168 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 3: Well, I'm actually shocked that we haven't had you on previously, 169 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 3: just because this podcast is so focus. I mean, our 170 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 3: tagline is making work and life fit together, and we 171 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 3: hope to empower women who are choosing. We respect anybody 172 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 3: who makes either decision, but we felt like there just 173 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:12,679 Speaker 3: wasn't enough out there for women who do really enjoy 174 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:16,599 Speaker 3: their careers and want to experience that and have a 175 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 3: wonderful family life as well. So I feel like we're 176 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 3: long overdue and we may have to have you on again. 177 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 3: I get back into those childcare issues and the issues 178 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 3: you just mentioned, because that is just so near and 179 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 3: dear to our hearts and the hearts of our audience. 180 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 3: So that is super cool and I love that. So 181 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 3: at the same time, you have had a little bit 182 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 3: of a recent pivot, not really, because actually there's clearly 183 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 3: a common thread, which is that A you like to 184 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 3: do your own research, and B you like to go 185 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 3: straight to the source, not necessarily the adult source. But 186 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:51,320 Speaker 3: can you talk a little bit about how you have 187 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:56,200 Speaker 3: kind of focused in on teens and adolescents over the 188 00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 3: recent past with your new work. 189 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 4: I've practiced a form of reach church called civic science. 190 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 4: And what civic science means is that you go to 191 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 4: the source. Your way of saying it is beautiful. I 192 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 4: don't make assumptions about people. I find out what's on 193 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:16,199 Speaker 4: their minds. So for thirty years I did the largest 194 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 4: nationally representative study of the US workforce and the largest 195 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 4: nationally representative study of the US workplace. And my studies 196 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 4: were in the news all the time. And why it's 197 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 4: not that I'm so brilliant. It's that I know how 198 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:33,679 Speaker 4: to listen, you know, I just I would ask employers 199 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 4: what keeps you up at night? What are you worrying about? 200 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 4: And then put it into the study. I would ask 201 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:42,319 Speaker 4: employees the same question, put it into the study. And 202 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 4: so it's always breaking new grounds. Civic science is and 203 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 4: I'm thankful for you for doing a podcast on it, 204 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 4: because there wasn't enough discussion then and there still isn't 205 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 4: enough discussion now. 206 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 3: I love that. But what brought you to the current 207 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 3: focus on teens? Because I have been through your book, 208 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 3: not with a fine tooth cam yet, like I want 209 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 3: to go through it again in even more detail. But 210 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 3: I am fascinated at the level of individuality captured of 211 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 3: some of the voices in the book, as well as 212 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 3: with some of the takeaways, which are kind of a 213 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 3: mix of some of the things you'd expect and then 214 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 3: also some things that are a little bit different. 215 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 4: Yes, I think often getting upset, getting angry, getting annoyed, 216 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 4: getting thinking they don't get it, they don't get it, 217 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:32,839 Speaker 4: leads me to the next project. And in this case, 218 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 4: I was really tired of people in the early childhood 219 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 4: years saying that if they just had one year of preschool, 220 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 4: all would be good for the rest of their lives. 221 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 4: You know. Some people didn't do that, but there was 222 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:48,959 Speaker 4: the sense of it's the foundation and if you screw 223 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:51,439 Speaker 4: it up, it's too late. And people felt that way 224 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 4: about my book Mind and the Making, and I was like, no, no, no, no, no, 225 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 4: we have to carry it through. Foundations are critical, you know, 226 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 4: they're the house of on a foundation, but you still 227 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 4: building the architecture upwards, and we need to pay attention 228 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 4: to the older years or we're not going to really 229 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 4: help kids grow and learn and thrive. And all of 230 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 4: my work has been around helping families learn and thrive. 231 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 4: I mean, there's the common theme in it. But I 232 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 4: started out civic science by going to young people themselves 233 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 4: and saying, what do you want to know about your 234 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 4: own development? What should I ask the researchers who study 235 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:34,959 Speaker 4: people your age if you had one wish to improve 236 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,199 Speaker 4: the lives of people your age, what would that wish be? 237 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 4: Or what questions do you have about yourself? And what 238 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 4: don't you understand about yourself? Just a lot of open 239 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 4: ended questions, which you can do when you're starting something, 240 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:49,559 Speaker 4: and it took me in a completely different direction than 241 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 4: I thought I was going. If you just read the 242 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 4: research on adolescents, you would go in one direction, but 243 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 4: if you talk to them, you go in a completely 244 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 4: different direction. And they're what they say. Said to me 245 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 4: that we talked to thirty eight fourteen to eighteen year 246 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 4: olds from around the country, even from other parts of 247 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 4: the world, and they said, why don't people like teenagers? 248 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:13,839 Speaker 4: That's simple, like, look at us, We're not the stereotypic teenagers. 249 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 4: Who is you know? That got me to look into 250 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 4: what is our societal conception of teenagers of adolescents? And 251 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 4: they wanted, you know, I asked the question in the 252 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 4: eventual nationally representative study that I did, I ask what 253 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:37,680 Speaker 4: do you want to tell adults about people your age? 254 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:41,680 Speaker 4: And they wanted it to be comprehensive. So it is 255 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 4: a comprehensive book. It is, you know, most books are 256 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 4: here's you know, here's my point, and you know, I'm 257 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 4: going to tell you what I'm going to tell you, 258 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 4: and now I'm telling you, and now I told you 259 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 4: kind of a thing. They wanted a comprehensive story. That's 260 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 4: why they're five messages from young people about what they 261 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 4: want us to know, and it actually aligned with the research, 262 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 4: the new research. I call it the breakthrough years because 263 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 4: these are breakthrough years for kids, but also researchers have 264 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 4: had so many breakthroughs in how they understand adolescens, so 265 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 4: breakthrough on both sides. 266 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 3: I love that we're going to take a quick break 267 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 3: and then get into some specifics. All right, we are 268 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 3: back and we are going to delve into the breakthrough 269 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 3: years a little bit. But one thing I loved, loved 270 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 3: right off the bat was that you opened I don't 271 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 3: know if you opened or closed, but I read it 272 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 3: in your book where you mentioned the just you wait 273 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 3: kind of prophecy. That's like Laura and I's least favorite phrase, 274 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 3: just in general, like just you wait, because often we 275 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 3: find that either it's not true and that it potentially 276 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 3: causes a lot of unnecessary angst. So I would love 277 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 3: you to delve in to kind of how you addressed 278 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 3: this particular sentiment I think, especially around teenagers, and how 279 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 3: it might actually do some damage. 280 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 4: Yes, I mean when young people said to me, why 281 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 4: don't people like teenagers? That took me right back to 282 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 4: the birth of my first child. So I opened the 283 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 4: book with that because he was premature. He was in 284 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 4: the hospital for a while. He didn't come home right away. 285 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 4: He was in the hospital for five weeks before he 286 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 4: was big enough to come home. He was perfectly healthy, 287 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 4: just small, and he had to gain enough weight for 288 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 4: them to let him out of the hospital. And I 289 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 4: brought him home, and you know, there he was my 290 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 4: perfect little person. You know. Now he was big. It 291 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 4: was all of almost five pounds. He had ten little 292 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 4: fingers and ten little toes. And I just was thrilled 293 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 4: to this little person now who was finally in my house. 294 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 4: And a neighbor came home over to see him, to 295 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 4: welcome him to the world, and she said, just wait 296 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 4: to lease a teenager. And it was like, what, you know, 297 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 4: I just am feeling so much joy and I've been 298 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 4: through such agony over you know, would he be healthy, 299 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 4: would he survive? You know, with foreign prematurely, that's scary. 300 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 4: And now I've got this jail like since hanging over 301 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 4: my head for the next ten years or something. Uh 302 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 4: So I asked that in the study, I ask how 303 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 4: many people have had heard just wait, And sixty one 304 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 4: percent of parents in a nationally representative group have heard 305 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 4: just wait until they're teenagers. Interestingly, to me, parents did 306 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 4: something else, which is I'd say I'd start the in 307 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 4: person interviews that I did in between the two national studies. 308 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 4: I'd start the in person interviews saying, like, if I 309 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 4: were someone from another country, tell me what it's like 310 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 4: to be the parent of a child your age, and 311 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 4: they would to a person, they would say, I'm lucky, 312 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 4: my kid's okay, my kid isn't this terrible person. So 313 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 4: it's just the consent options of what adolescents are supposed 314 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:05,719 Speaker 4: to be, Like, they're so embedded in us that there 315 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 4: were the opening gambit to every conversation I had with parents. 316 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 3: Like, even though I'm the exception to the rule, i 317 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 3: still believe this trope because it's just been what people say. 318 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,159 Speaker 3: And you said something interesting on another podcast was that 319 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 3: there's actually some data that like expecting badness may make 320 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 3: it more likely to happen. I found that fascinating. I 321 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 3: also wonder if it applies in other realms of life. 322 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 3: But can you share a little bit about that well? 323 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 4: I wanted to understand when we ask the question and 324 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 4: what you want to tell the adults about people your age. 325 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 4: We found that twenty one percent of young people say 326 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 4: understand us, understand our development. And who hasn't had a 327 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 4: teenager say that to you? You know, you understand us, 328 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:51,679 Speaker 4: you don't understand us, you know, And it can be 329 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 4: sort of something that we brush off. But in fact 330 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:58,360 Speaker 4: I ask a question that got it that I ask 331 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 4: adults what they're conceptions of the team brain were. I 332 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 4: came out of sitting at a conference on neuroscience with 333 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:10,360 Speaker 4: neuroscientists where they were debating what public thought about teenagers, 334 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 4: and I thought, well, I'll just ask, and so I did, 335 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:16,919 Speaker 4: and we don't understand them. What I found is that 336 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:21,400 Speaker 4: only fourteen percent of parents use positive words, twenty seven 337 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:25,199 Speaker 4: percent use neutral words, fifty nine percent use negative words. 338 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 4: The most frequent negative word, by eleven percent, was immature, 339 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 4: and then another eight percent. So almost one in five 340 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 4: of us think of our adolescence as deficit adults, and 341 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 4: we don't understand that they're acting the way that they're 342 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 4: programmed to act. Their brain is priming them to be exploratory, 343 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 4: to have strong emotional reactions to things as they figure 344 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 4: out how to move out into the world and to 345 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 4: become whom they want to be or to be whom 346 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 4: they want to be. So it's it's normal, it's developmentally completely, 347 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 4: it's development necessary for them to be this way, and 348 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 4: yet we don't you know, a lot of us don't 349 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 4: understand that. So that I think was a very important 350 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 4: finding that we actually our adult perspectives. It's called the 351 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 4: curse of knowledge in cognitive science, where we now know something, 352 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 4: then we don't remember not knowing it. We can't see 353 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 4: the world without knowing it. I think that part of 354 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:27,199 Speaker 4: that is true in how we think about teenagers. 355 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 3: Interesting, Yeah, you can't really strike anything from the record, 356 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:33,919 Speaker 3: and then you're maybe handicapped by that. Very interesting. You 357 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:39,400 Speaker 3: also talk about how it is very developmentally appropriate for 358 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 3: teens to have heightened emotions and how we react to 359 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:48,120 Speaker 3: that as parents can either be helpful or perhaps very 360 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 3: hurtful if it's not done right. And it seems like 361 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 3: that was a common theme that came out. Can you 362 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 3: talk a little bit about that. 363 00:19:55,320 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 4: Yes, I just love I mean, young people are so articulate. 364 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 4: You know, young people wrote down the things that they 365 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,360 Speaker 4: didn't like that adults said to them, like stop being 366 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 4: such a teenager. Well, they are a teenager, you know, 367 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 4: they're supposed to be a teenager. That's what they are, 368 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 4: and or you're you know, hormonal mess or oh my god, 369 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 4: puberty or you know all of the things like that. 370 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:23,159 Speaker 4: And so we need to understand that they're supposed to 371 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 4: have these very heightened feelings. They're like emotional detectors. I 372 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:30,920 Speaker 4: thought of it like a Geiger counter. If anyone remembers 373 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 4: what they are. You know, where you go around and 374 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 4: you can find metal in the soil. They're supposed to 375 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 4: be able to be sensitive to emotions. How else will 376 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 4: they know who are the people that they want to 377 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 4: be with, Who are the people who make them feel 378 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,880 Speaker 4: safe as they move further from the home. I don't 379 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 4: believe that there's sort of something called independence that they 380 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 4: separate and are never connected to us. Again, you know 381 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 4: that we're always interdependent. In my book The Six Stages 382 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:58,919 Speaker 4: of Parenthood, I called it the stage of interdependence. But 383 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 4: they're moving out far, they're into the world, and they 384 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:04,920 Speaker 4: need that ability to be an emotional detector. 385 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, and how about our response to those emotions? What 386 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,160 Speaker 3: are they looking for? It sounds like a big theme 387 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:16,400 Speaker 3: was to be listened to and not have their feelings 388 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 3: be discounted. But can you go into more depth? As 389 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 3: how we can be supportive as parents even in the moment. 390 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:27,159 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's where I found civic science so helpful, because 391 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 4: they can tell you exactly what works and what doesn't work. 392 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 4: They want to be talked with, not at one child 393 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 4: I call them. Joshua, who is twelve years old from California, said, 394 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 4: listen with when I was a child's mind, not just 395 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:43,640 Speaker 4: now I'm an adult mind. So try to take their 396 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:47,679 Speaker 4: perspectives and understand how it feels to be a teenager 397 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 4: or how it felt once. But don't say, oh, I 398 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 4: was your agent and I got over it. You know 399 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 4: you'll get over it. Explain that they're supposed to have 400 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 4: those feelings. If they I mean, they really want to 401 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 4: understand it, they will say, oh, I didn't know that 402 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 4: was normal. I didn't know we were supposed to feel 403 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 4: this way. So listen, listen more than you talk, they said, 404 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 4: Listen with an understanding of their development. And then I 405 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:15,399 Speaker 4: think also help them learn to solve problems. I ask 406 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 4: young people for three you know, the most important parenting 407 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 4: or teaching skills, and they said, listen more than you talk. 408 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 4: Listen with when I was a child's mind as well 409 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:26,919 Speaker 4: as now I'm an adult mind, So take their perspective 410 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,439 Speaker 4: and then if we're the problem, then we need to 411 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 4: be part of the solution. Using young people's words here, 412 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 4: but they need to develop the ability to solve problems 413 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,959 Speaker 4: for themselves. So using autonomy supportive practices or I call 414 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 4: them skill building practices, is a way to help them 415 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,719 Speaker 4: learn the skills to manage the world rather than fixing 416 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:48,880 Speaker 4: things for them. 417 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 3: Well, speaking of skills to manage the world, you go off. 418 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 3: I don't know if it's a tangent or sort of 419 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 3: a subtopic, but executive function comes up a lot in 420 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,919 Speaker 3: this book, I guess because that's one area that's really 421 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 3: developing and just impacts a lot of how kids and 422 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 3: teens experience daily life. So how what does that mean? 423 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,399 Speaker 3: And how can we support our kids, even those who 424 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 3: might be struggling to develop that executive function as I 425 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 3: know many adults still struggle with that as well. 426 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:22,120 Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely, it's actually a culmination. It's the fifth message 427 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 4: because it's to me ties so much together. If we 428 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 4: help young people and ourselves develop executive function skills, we're 429 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:34,880 Speaker 4: going to learn better, We're going to thrive better. It 430 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 4: kind of pulls it all together, I think it's the 431 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 4: biggest secret. You know, there's always a gap between research 432 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 4: getting to practice. The research on executive function skills is 433 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 4: maybe twenty or so years old by that name anyway, 434 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 4: And yet if you walk into a classroom a group 435 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 4: of I'm working with the ASAY, which is the school 436 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 4: Superintendent organization, and they're always saying, if you walk into 437 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 4: a group of superintendents and you asked them to hold 438 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,640 Speaker 4: up their hand if they've heard executive function, not many 439 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 4: people will raise their hand. And if they do, they'll 440 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,119 Speaker 4: think it has to do with problems with executive function, 441 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:15,880 Speaker 4: which is ADHD or other learning problems, or it has 442 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 4: to do with organizing, or it has to do you know, 443 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 4: making tabs in your notebooks, or it has to do 444 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 4: with being able to sit still and be compliant and 445 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 4: listen to the teacher, and those are all parts of it, 446 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,400 Speaker 4: but it is these are the skills of learning. These 447 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,360 Speaker 4: are how we learn. They are the most important skills. 448 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 4: And so I think that we need to you ask 449 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,199 Speaker 4: what we should do. And I think it's helping children 450 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 4: become aware of how they learn, not just what they learn. 451 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 4: We focus a lot on what they learn, but how 452 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 4: they learn. So when did you figure out You know, 453 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,360 Speaker 4: you struggled with getting your homework done, but this time 454 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 4: you did it and it wasn't such a struggle. What 455 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 4: was different? How did you manage that? What did you 456 00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 4: learn from that? Or you're doing some project on the river, 457 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,959 Speaker 4: let's say, or you know science that looks at how 458 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 4: rivers develop, in the function of rivers in society, making 459 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 4: it up, but not just what did you learn about rivers? 460 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 4: But how did you learn best? What helped you learn something? 461 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,639 Speaker 4: How does your memory work? So executive function is an 462 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 4: umbrella concept. It's not us thing. It's a set of 463 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,439 Speaker 4: sub skills. There are four sub skills that I think 464 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,879 Speaker 4: are important. They are working memory, which means using what 465 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 4: you know. It's not enough to memorize something, you have 466 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 4: to be able to use it put it to action. 467 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,879 Speaker 4: It is being able to think flexibly. Because the world 468 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:44,360 Speaker 4: changes and we need to change with it. We need 469 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,360 Speaker 4: to understand other people's point of view. That's just one 470 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:51,680 Speaker 4: example of thinking flexibly. That everybody doesn't think the way 471 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 4: we do, and understanding different perspectives is really critically important 472 00:25:55,800 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 4: to surviving in society. It's reflecting that isn't often seen 473 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:05,680 Speaker 4: as an executive function skill. These are attention regulation skills. 474 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 4: The attention when we reflect is internal intention attention, not 475 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 4: just external attention. We're paying attention to ourselves, we're pausing, 476 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,200 Speaker 4: we're stepping back. It does take place in a different 477 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 4: part of the brain than default mode network, but it 478 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,680 Speaker 4: is highly linked to executive function skills, so I put 479 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,679 Speaker 4: it in there. And then finally self control, which is 480 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 4: doing what you need to do, not going on automatic, 481 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 4: but doing what you need to do to achieve a goal. 482 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:32,919 Speaker 4: So these are the core skills, and they're the building 483 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,160 Speaker 4: blocks of things that we know are important, like setting 484 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 4: goals or perspective taking or communicating or collaborating or problem 485 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,120 Speaker 4: solving or taking on challenges. Those are the five skills 486 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 4: that I outline that are very important, and each of 487 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 4: them has sub skills that go along with it. 488 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 3: Awesome, We're going to take another quick break and then 489 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 3: I want to ask you a little bit about your 490 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 3: I don't know how you might have applied this to 491 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:13,119 Speaker 3: your younger self. We'll be right back. So it seems 492 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 3: like we've gotten some things right about the teen years, 493 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 3: but maybe historically we got a lot of things a 494 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 3: little off base. So was there anything you discovered while 495 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:25,400 Speaker 3: you were doing this research that you might have done 496 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 3: differently yourself, or you kind of like have seen being 497 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:30,680 Speaker 3: done that you wish could turn around. 498 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,199 Speaker 4: Yes, this research helped me understand some things that I 499 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 4: did that worked, and it helped me figure out what 500 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,200 Speaker 4: I did do that didn't work as well. My mother 501 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 4: was wonderful at listening to us, and particularly if we 502 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 4: thought that she was doing something that she could do 503 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 4: better as a parent. She really took our if you 504 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:58,479 Speaker 4: want to call it criticism or advice, very seriously. I 505 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 4: didn't realize how absolutely exceptional that was until I started 506 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 4: spending the night with other kids and saw that there 507 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 4: you know, that would have been seen as back talk. 508 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 4: We had to be very polite if we told mother 509 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 4: that we didn't agree with the decision she made, but 510 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 4: we could say it, and very often she would listen. 511 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 4: Not always she was the boss, but that was something 512 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 4: that I just did with my children. And when I 513 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 4: asked my children the question that you just asked me, 514 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,199 Speaker 4: because I figured that someone was going to ask me 515 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,640 Speaker 4: that what should I do differently? They said I made 516 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 4: a lot of mistakes, but the thing that I always 517 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:36,239 Speaker 4: did was listen to them and do something, you know, 518 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 4: really listen very hard and try to change if something 519 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 4: wasn't working very well. So I did that. And they 520 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:49,959 Speaker 4: also said my son said that I didn't prejudge his friends, 521 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 4: that they could be from really different backgrounds. They were 522 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 4: always welcome. I wasn't prejudiced against some people. He really 523 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 4: valued that because he saw a lot a lot of 524 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 4: parents who had preseid ideas, you don't hang out with 525 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 4: these kids. You do hang out with these kids. And 526 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 4: my son also said that I really valued his pursuing 527 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 4: his interests. He is a musician. He played the drum. 528 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 4: Other parents could find that annoying, I assume, but I 529 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 4: found it wonderful that he brought music into our lives. 530 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 4: And you know now as his doctorate in music and 531 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 4: just got selected today as the you know in New 532 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 4: York State is the artist's the best artistic contribution as 533 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 4: an entrepreneur in the state. I mean, that's like, wow, 534 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 4: that's pretty amazing. He would say that it's because if 535 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:41,800 Speaker 4: that's what he always wanted to do, and he always 536 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 4: wanted to do music, that I was like helping him 537 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 4: resident saying, you know, why don't you be a lawyer 538 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 4: or something. I think the thing that I would do 539 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 4: differently is to pause more, not to react as quickly, 540 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 4: the importance of reflection, of stepping back and not just reacting, 541 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 4: so that learn from looking at the research. For sure. 542 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 3: Oh that's awesome, and I can imagine that's something that 543 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 3: requires practice, But I myself will try to keep that 544 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 3: in mind as a fairly impatient kind of person who 545 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 3: probably needs to work on that. 546 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 1: So that's awesome. 547 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 3: I love hearing it. I guess one more question because 548 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 3: it keeps coming up in other venues in discussions on teens, 549 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 3: and I'm sure you get it a lot, but there's 550 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 3: a lot in the cultural zeitgeist about how we've ruined 551 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 3: the entire generation. 552 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 1: Because of phones. How can we, I don't know. 553 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 3: Address that since they are certainly part of our current 554 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 3: landscape and reality, and we're not going to be able to, 555 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 3: as Laura and I say, make it nineteen ninety five again. 556 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 4: Phones are the kid currency up today, and we're not 557 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 4: going back to nineteen ninety five or a world without pundes. 558 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 4: We're just not. And so we have to figure out 559 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 4: how to use them the best way and how to 560 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 4: change what's not working about them. I think that We 561 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 4: always look for a bad guy in the culture, and 562 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 4: phones have been our recent bad guy, you know, the 563 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 4: easiest thing to blame. We see mental health going up, 564 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 4: problems with mental health rising, and phone use parallels that. 565 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 4: So people say, oh, it's causal. The latest science shows 566 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 4: that it's not causal. Phones can be harmful for some 567 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 4: kids if they're used too much, or if the kids 568 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,719 Speaker 4: are already struggling with certain issues. They were not designed 569 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 4: for children. They need to be designed for adolescents and 570 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 4: for younger children. The endless scroll, the likes, the figures 571 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 4: that are perfect when you feel so imperfect. All of 572 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 4: those things aren't particularly healthy. We need ways of making 573 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 4: phones better, but we also need to appreciate that they 574 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,720 Speaker 4: open up the world of possibilities to young people. I've 575 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 4: been on a task force in consulting with a federal 576 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,840 Speaker 4: government that is looking at the whole issue of kids 577 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 4: online health and safety, and we're very careful to state 578 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 4: the benefits as well as the potential harms. The potential benefits. 579 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 4: The best review of the literature out there for people 580 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 4: who really want to look at the literature besides my chapter, 581 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 4: which I'm still pretty proud of, is there's a whole 582 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,960 Speaker 4: section in the book on the Digital World is The 583 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 4: National Academy of Sciences released a report in December that 584 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 4: summarizes the research on what we know now and what 585 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 4: we need to know about phones, and the American Psychological 586 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 4: Association just a few days ago came out with another advisory. 587 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 4: So the world is trying to catch up with the 588 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 4: latest bad guy. We've had bad guys before. I've seen 589 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 4: them come and go, so we have to put it 590 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 4: in perspective. I think two other thoughts about phones. One 591 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 4: is that it's a really great place for us to 592 00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 4: help kids learn self control. They are meant their designed 593 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 4: to be addictive. They want you to do that endless scroll. 594 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,040 Speaker 4: They're rewarding, you know, if you get likes, you want 595 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 4: to see how you stay in. Of course, the imaginary 596 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 4: audience for teenagers becomes a real audience. You can see 597 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:17,720 Speaker 4: how people react to what you post, and so we 598 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 4: need to help them learn how to manage this. And 599 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 4: if we can help them learn that, just think of 600 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 4: all of the things that feel addictive in life can 601 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 4: be well managed if we give them that foundational skill. 602 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:35,360 Speaker 4: And then I think we need to worry about what 603 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 4: phones are displacing. If they're displacing being outside and running, 604 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 4: that's a time for creativity. It's a time to feel 605 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 4: more centered, it's a time to be physically active. We 606 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 4: need that. If they're replacing sleep, I'd love the research 607 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 4: in the book that Rick hugen Ar that I report 608 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:57,800 Speaker 4: on from Rick Hugenar at the John Hopkins where he's 609 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:03,240 Speaker 4: discovered that memories getsolidated during sleep, so they're essential to learning. 610 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,479 Speaker 4: They're not just being rested and rest in recovery. They 611 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 4: are really essential to learning. So we need to manage 612 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,320 Speaker 4: phone use but not freak out about it. And it hasn't. 613 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:15,720 Speaker 4: Has the kids told me and know in certain terms 614 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:17,759 Speaker 4: the internet is not going to be the death of 615 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 4: the whole generation. 616 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,719 Speaker 3: Well, that is reassuring. I think we both agree and 617 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,799 Speaker 3: I love that perspective. Well, let's end on our love 618 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:28,960 Speaker 3: of the week. I did give you a warning, so 619 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:31,680 Speaker 3: I will let you go first. What is your love 620 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 3: of the week this week? 621 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 4: Well, this week was my birthday yesterday, Happy birthday. And 622 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 4: my grandson who usually he's eleven, doesn't usually do things 623 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 4: on school nights because his mom is really careful about 624 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,840 Speaker 4: making sure he gets enough sleep. We live about fifteen 625 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 4: minutes away, and he decided to come and he worked 626 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,400 Speaker 4: really hard at finding a present for me for my birthday. 627 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:57,919 Speaker 4: So what he brought me and I know you can't 628 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 4: see it on the podcast, but I'm home it now, 629 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:07,759 Speaker 4: so imagine it is. It's called living Animal. It's a labradoodle. 630 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 4: He knows how much I love my two dogs, and 631 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:13,560 Speaker 4: he wanted to give me another dog, but instead he 632 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,440 Speaker 4: gave me a stuffed animal that is big, white and 633 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:20,799 Speaker 4: fluffy labradoodle and it is just adorable and I'm very 634 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,440 Speaker 4: much in love with him and with this labradoodle that 635 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:23,920 Speaker 4: I now have. 636 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:26,240 Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, that is so sweet and it sounds 637 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,719 Speaker 3: like he absolutely nailed it, so that is awesome. Mine 638 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,880 Speaker 3: is going to be a tech tip which is super basic, 639 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:38,319 Speaker 3: but if you ever are interviewing someone, or perhaps just 640 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 3: want a deep dive on someone's work, you can actually 641 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,799 Speaker 3: search for their name and Apple podcasts and then be 642 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 3: presented with a million places that they have done interviews previously. 643 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:51,919 Speaker 3: So not sharing my trade secrets here, but I did 644 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 3: it for Ellen, and I've done it for many guests 645 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 3: in the past, but I've also done it for other 646 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,239 Speaker 3: random people that I've become interested in, because then you 647 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 3: might expose you to some new podcas, new perspectives, et cetera. 648 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 3: And I don't think I realized you could do that 649 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 3: until recently. But yeah, you can search for the subject 650 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:09,239 Speaker 3: of the podcast, not just the title. So thank you 651 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:11,920 Speaker 3: so much for coming on. This was amazing and as 652 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 3: I said, can't wait to Delvin even deeper with a 653 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,600 Speaker 3: fine tooth calm. Just remind our listeners the full name 654 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:18,799 Speaker 3: of your book and of course where they can find you. 655 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 4: It's called the Breakthrough Years because I really would like 656 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,759 Speaker 4: us as a society to make these the breakthrough years 657 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 4: for adolescence. Help us see them as a time of possibility, 658 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 4: and there are so many resources in the book that 659 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,400 Speaker 4: can help us turn what is often seen as the 660 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,920 Speaker 4: time of storm and stress or a just wait time 661 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:45,360 Speaker 4: into a time where we can build on adolescence possibilities, 662 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,719 Speaker 4: a time of very sensitive brain development. The subtitle is 663 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:53,359 Speaker 4: a new scientific framework for raising thriving teens, and it 664 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:57,360 Speaker 4: really is a framework. It's comprehensive. Adolescents wanted us to 665 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 4: fully understand them, so the book takes the five messages 666 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,439 Speaker 4: that were most important to them and fully explores them. 667 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 3: Awesome well Thank you so much again for coming on 668 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:09,040 Speaker 3: my pleasure. 669 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:11,440 Speaker 1: All Right, we are back. 670 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,279 Speaker 3: That was so much fun to chat with Ellen Galinsky. 671 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,480 Speaker 3: Definitely check her book out. And now we have our 672 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:21,239 Speaker 3: Q and A segment. This one came in for Laura specifically. 673 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:24,120 Speaker 3: You'll see why in a second, and she writes, you 674 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,560 Speaker 3: all have talked about whether or not to have more kids, 675 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,160 Speaker 3: and this is usually it seems like going from two 676 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:32,280 Speaker 3: to three kids. But Laura, you have five kids. Maybe 677 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:34,680 Speaker 3: this episode exists, but I'd be interested in hearing more 678 00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,440 Speaker 3: about deciding to have kids number four and five. I 679 00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,319 Speaker 3: have three kids and I'm probably done, but maybe not. 680 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,080 Speaker 3: And I'm also interested in the logistics. Did you store 681 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,080 Speaker 3: all the baby stuff or give it away and buy 682 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 3: more later? 683 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:49,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the logistics of the baby stuff is 684 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:52,640 Speaker 2: the least fraught part of that, So it's sort of 685 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:54,880 Speaker 2: funny that that was in this question. I mean, you 686 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,880 Speaker 2: know there's so many people selling used baby items or 687 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,239 Speaker 2: you can easily buy things. I mean, we've certainly we 688 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:05,040 Speaker 2: had a great guest many years ago who was a 689 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 2: foster parent, and basically you can learn like overnight that 690 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:10,640 Speaker 2: you're going to have a baby in your house the 691 00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:14,040 Speaker 2: next day and she went out to Target and got 692 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,840 Speaker 2: everything she needed and it was fine. 693 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:17,879 Speaker 1: So I think you. 694 00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 2: Don't need to worry about any of that. Feel free 695 00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,080 Speaker 2: to give your stuff away to friends if you'd like, 696 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:24,719 Speaker 2: because they'll probably give it back to you if you 697 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,239 Speaker 2: get pregnant again, or you know you can purchase it, 698 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 2: or if you want to store it, go for it 699 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 2: if that makes thinking about the transition a little bit 700 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,120 Speaker 2: easier than you know. If you have the room in 701 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:35,960 Speaker 2: your house, then not a problem to put things in 702 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,320 Speaker 2: a closet for a few years while you make a decision. 703 00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:41,920 Speaker 2: But yeah, we don't really get the question of should 704 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:43,319 Speaker 2: I have a fourth kid or should I have a 705 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 2: fifth kid. 706 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:45,400 Speaker 1: We always get the question of should I have a 707 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 1: third kid. I guess that's just the more common question. 708 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:54,880 Speaker 2: But I think if you're feeling maybe not done Sarah 709 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,799 Speaker 2: and I have certainly discussed this with people in the 710 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,000 Speaker 2: past and certainly seen this with each other, that if 711 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:03,239 Speaker 2: you're feeling maybe not done, that may be a sign 712 00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 2: that you do want more, And if your partner is 713 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 2: open to it or maybe even actively hopeful about the idea, 714 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:14,439 Speaker 2: then you can maybe just sit with the idea for 715 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,960 Speaker 2: a month or two and see if you both feel 716 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:23,000 Speaker 2: excited about it, because you can always try for four 717 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:25,120 Speaker 2: without trying for five, Like you don't have to make 718 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,200 Speaker 2: that as a joint decision for you know how many 719 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,479 Speaker 2: more you're going for. You can simply say, well, maybe 720 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:32,440 Speaker 2: we're open to a fourth and have a fourth. And 721 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,279 Speaker 2: if you have a fourth and decide it's the most 722 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:36,880 Speaker 2: awesome thing in the world, and you want to have 723 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:38,839 Speaker 2: even more kids and you don't feel done, then you 724 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:41,960 Speaker 2: can go for a fifth. But maybe you will have 725 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:46,240 Speaker 2: that feeling after four like, Okay, that's plenty, my family 726 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:50,000 Speaker 2: is complete. I can tell everyone that I feel very 727 00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:54,399 Speaker 2: complete after five, which was not necessarily how I had felt, 728 00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:57,000 Speaker 2: for sure after number three or four. So I mean, 729 00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:58,920 Speaker 2: partly it's that I'm old, like I don't think we're 730 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:03,360 Speaker 2: having more kids at this point anyway, But I certainly 731 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:05,840 Speaker 2: have that feeling of my family feeling complete in a 732 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:09,800 Speaker 2: way that I didn't one hundred percent earlier. 733 00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 1: So I think that's something worth listening to. 734 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:15,440 Speaker 3: And I will say, just because you feel complete at 735 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:18,160 Speaker 3: one moment, you might change your mind in a year, 736 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:21,359 Speaker 3: or maybe the other way around, like sometimes when people 737 00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:23,680 Speaker 3: struggle to have kids, the gap gets longer, and then 738 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:25,920 Speaker 3: you become at peace with like not moving. 739 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:26,600 Speaker 1: Back to the baby stage. 740 00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:28,840 Speaker 3: So it's hard to sort of like plan ahead and 741 00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:31,960 Speaker 3: assume that you'll be stuck with a given goal or 742 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 3: mindset around having more kids, because also you can't count 743 00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:37,239 Speaker 3: on what's going to happen. But I will say what Laura. 744 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:38,800 Speaker 3: I agree with what Laura says, which is that like, 745 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,600 Speaker 3: if you're not sure if you're done, to me, that sort. 746 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:45,239 Speaker 2: Of suggests that maybe you're not, because you had that 747 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,400 Speaker 2: feeling right after too that you were not sure you 748 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:48,839 Speaker 2: were done. 749 00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:55,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean not instantaneously, but I was not like 750 00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:58,840 Speaker 3: totally sure, and then after three I was like and seeing, 751 00:40:59,120 --> 00:40:59,680 Speaker 3: we are good. 752 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 1: That's it, feeling like this is the family, this is good. 753 00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:07,120 Speaker 2: So yeah, all right, well this has been best of 754 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 2: both worlds. Sarah has been interviewing Ellen Golinski about her 755 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:14,200 Speaker 2: book The Breakthrough Years and All Things Adolescents. We will 756 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:16,239 Speaker 2: be back next week with more on making work and 757 00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:17,160 Speaker 2: life fit together. 758 00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:22,000 Speaker 3: Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the 759 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:26,400 Speaker 3: shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, 760 00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:27,440 Speaker 3: and you can. 761 00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:30,800 Speaker 2: Find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. 762 00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:33,799 Speaker 1: This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. 763 00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:36,960 Speaker 2: Please join us next time for more on making work 764 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:38,320 Speaker 2: and life work together.