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Speaker 1: Pushkin. When rent collector Thomas Boyer wraps on Mary jen

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Speaker 1: Kelly's door, he receives no answer. She's in arrears and

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Speaker 1: the slum landlord who owns this building has sent him

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Speaker 1: to settle the matter. Boyer spots a smashed window whose

5
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Speaker 1: jagged pane is stuffed with rags. I put my end

6
00:00:50,956 --> 00:00:54,836
Speaker 1: through the broken pane and lifted the curtain. I saw

7
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Speaker 1: two pieces of flesh lying on the table. Horrified, he

8
00:00:59,716 --> 00:01:04,116
Speaker 1: flees and returns to his boss. Another one, Jack the Ripper.

9
00:01:07,996 --> 00:01:11,356
Speaker 1: When police officers break down the door to the little room,

10
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Speaker 1: they are confronted by a dreadful scene. Mary Jane has

11
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Speaker 1: been horribly mutilated. Every part of her body has been defiled.

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Speaker 1: No one really knew Mary Jane in life and now

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Speaker 1: in death. It's almost as though her murderer sought to

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Speaker 1: obliterate her completely. But what happens next is curious. Mary

15
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Speaker 1: jen Kelly is somehow set apart from the other dead women.

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Speaker 1: Her youth, her mystery, her life as a quartersan, and

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Speaker 1: the grisliness of her death are used to fetishize and

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Speaker 1: sexualize her. A cult of Mary Jane Kelly emerges, and

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Speaker 1: its followers would even go as far as trying to

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Speaker 1: dig up her bones. I'm Hallie rubinhold you're listening to

21
00:02:09,276 --> 00:02:13,636
Speaker 1: bad women. The Ripper retold a series about the real

22
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Speaker 1: lives of the women killed by Jack the Ripper and

23
00:02:16,956 --> 00:02:24,716
Speaker 1: how we got their stories so wrong. One side, money

24
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Speaker 1: plenty and friends too by the score. Then fortune smilder

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Speaker 1: upon me. I now one pass my dome, aloney, and

26
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Speaker 1: not with her, seems to loney. I'm com fe walk.

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Speaker 1: We followed Mary gen Kelly to extravagant and decadent parties

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Speaker 1: in London's fashionable West End, and traced her route to Paris,

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Speaker 1: where she may have been cruelly tricked into confinement in

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Speaker 1: a state sanctioned brothel. Then we shadowed her as she

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Speaker 1: hid from her aggrieved traffickers in the heart of London's

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Speaker 1: grim East End. We left Mary Jane as she escaped

33
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Speaker 1: a volatile love affair with an ordinary working man. With

34
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Speaker 1: each of these moves, she was circling closer and closer

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Speaker 1: to notorious Whitechapel. And then, in March eighteen eighty seven,

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Speaker 1: another living arrangement presented itself. Mary Jane met twenty nine

37
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Speaker 1: year old Joseph Barnet, a blue eyed local man who

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Speaker 1: sported a fashionable mustache. Not forty eight hours after meeting

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Speaker 1: Mary Jane, he was in love. He quickly proposed that

40
00:04:04,476 --> 00:04:08,836
Speaker 1: they move in together, and Mary Jane agreed. Joe was

41
00:04:08,876 --> 00:04:11,436
Speaker 1: a quarter at a local fish market and earned a

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Speaker 1: good living. Nevertheless, the couple still struggled for money. Both

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Speaker 1: of them enjoyed a drink, and perhaps this is where

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Speaker 1: their troubles began. In the roughly eighteen months they were together,

45
00:04:25,356 --> 00:04:28,716
Speaker 1: Mary Jane and Joe Barnet moved a dress four times,

46
00:04:29,196 --> 00:04:33,636
Speaker 1: living in a series of cramped, shabby dwellings. At one

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Speaker 1: point they were evicted for drunkenness and for failing to

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Speaker 1: pay their rent. Eventually they settled in Miller's Court, in

49
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Speaker 1: a ten by twelve foot room at the end of

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Speaker 1: a dark alley. Here Mary Jane charmed her neighbors with

51
00:04:49,076 --> 00:04:52,956
Speaker 1: her humor and kindness. They claimed that she was a good, quiet,

52
00:04:53,196 --> 00:04:57,276
Speaker 1: pleasant girl who enjoyed singing. She would regale them with

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Speaker 1: her stories about her time in the West End and

54
00:05:00,356 --> 00:05:05,036
Speaker 1: rhapsodize about returning to her people in Ireland. What was

55
00:05:05,156 --> 00:05:09,876
Speaker 1: true and what was invented is now unknowable. In a

56
00:05:09,956 --> 00:05:13,556
Speaker 1: rare moment of openness. She spoke candidly to her neighbor,

57
00:05:13,956 --> 00:05:19,236
Speaker 1: twenty year old Lizzie Albrook. Lizzie seemed enchanted by her worldliness,

58
00:05:19,676 --> 00:05:23,276
Speaker 1: but Mary Jane warned her off embarking down a similar path.

59
00:05:23,676 --> 00:05:26,516
Speaker 1: She was heartily sick of the life she was laid in,

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00:05:27,996 --> 00:05:31,236
Speaker 1: and then, during the late summer of eighteen eighty eight,

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00:05:31,796 --> 00:05:35,836
Speaker 1: Joe lost his job. The couple again fell behind on

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00:05:35,916 --> 00:05:39,956
Speaker 1: their rent, and their debts began to mount. Perhaps it

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Speaker 1: was Mary Jane's landlord, a notoriously unscrupulous local business man,

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Speaker 1: who had a word with her about a return to soliciting.

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Speaker 1: After more than a year of sharing a bed with

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Speaker 1: only one familiar partner, she would hardly have embraced this

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Speaker 1: prospect willingly. For over a year, she had not needed

68
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Speaker 1: to inspect a strange man for signs of syphilis. She

69
00:06:03,396 --> 00:06:06,436
Speaker 1: had not stood on a corner in the rain without

70
00:06:06,476 --> 00:06:11,276
Speaker 1: a hat or a shawl, but having to smile. Nonetheless,

71
00:06:11,276 --> 00:06:13,876
Speaker 1: she had not had to consider what she might do

72
00:06:14,316 --> 00:06:17,996
Speaker 1: if the unwashed man she had just pleasured refused to

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00:06:17,996 --> 00:06:22,196
Speaker 1: pay her or made her pregnant. It was Joe Barnett

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Speaker 1: who said she needn't solicit while they lived together, and

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00:06:25,196 --> 00:06:28,396
Speaker 1: that he would provide for them. She must have resented

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00:06:28,476 --> 00:06:32,916
Speaker 1: him for failing on this promise. But however hard Joe tried,

77
00:06:33,316 --> 00:06:37,316
Speaker 1: he was unable to find any work beyond odd laboring jobs,

78
00:06:37,356 --> 00:06:39,836
Speaker 1: which did not even cover the cost of their rent.

79
00:06:41,156 --> 00:06:45,556
Speaker 1: The couple began to argue frequently and furiously. On one occasion,

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Speaker 1: while drunk, Mary Jane broke a pane of glass in

81
00:06:48,796 --> 00:06:52,276
Speaker 1: the window beside their door. In place of a proper repair,

82
00:06:52,956 --> 00:06:55,676
Speaker 1: she stuffed it full of rags to stop the draft.

83
00:06:57,196 --> 00:07:01,876
Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper's Killingsbury was terrorizing the district. During those

84
00:07:01,916 --> 00:07:05,676
Speaker 1: tense months, Joe and Mary Jane read the newspapers daily,

85
00:07:06,036 --> 00:07:08,836
Speaker 1: hoping to learn that the murderer had been caught. For

86
00:07:09,356 --> 00:07:12,356
Speaker 1: as long as the river remained at large, Mary Jane

87
00:07:12,436 --> 00:07:15,716
Speaker 1: offered sanctuary in their little room to friends and acquaintances

88
00:07:15,756 --> 00:07:20,796
Speaker 1: from the sex trade. After the fights and recriminations, these

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00:07:20,876 --> 00:07:25,356
Speaker 1: nocturnal guests were the final straw for Joseph Barnet. He

90
00:07:25,556 --> 00:07:29,556
Speaker 1: left Mary Jane on October thirtieth, though he said he

91
00:07:29,636 --> 00:07:34,316
Speaker 1: felt a great deal of remorse. Mary Jane stayed on

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00:07:34,476 --> 00:07:37,996
Speaker 1: at thirteen Millers Court, but if she felt its grubby,

93
00:07:38,156 --> 00:07:41,156
Speaker 1: peeling walls would offer a safe haven from a killer

94
00:07:41,236 --> 00:07:50,116
Speaker 1: still on the loose. She was awfully, tragically mistaken. In

95
00:07:50,236 --> 00:07:54,036
Speaker 1: spite of their difficulties, Joe obviously still cared for Mary

96
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Speaker 1: Jane and hoped they could be reconciled. He took a

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Speaker 1: bed at a local boarding house and made certain to

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00:08:00,156 --> 00:08:02,876
Speaker 1: look in on her as he continued to search for work.

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Speaker 1: Early on the evening of November eighth, he knocked on

100
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Speaker 1: her door. A candle was burning inside, and Barnet noted

101
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Speaker 1: that she was not alone. She'd been chatting with her

102
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Speaker 1: neighbor Lizzie, who then excused herself. Mary Jane had just

103
00:08:18,876 --> 00:08:21,596
Speaker 1: returned from drinking in the Ten Bells pub, though she

104
00:08:21,636 --> 00:08:26,036
Speaker 1: seemed perfectly sober. The couple were together for about an hour.

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Speaker 1: They may have conversed softly, or quarreled, or given into

106
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Speaker 1: their desires, but whatever occurred failed to shift their impasse.

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Speaker 1: In the end, Joe rose to leave, apologizing to Mary

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Speaker 1: Jane as he went. I told her that I had

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Speaker 1: no work and that had nothing to give her, for

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Speaker 1: which I was very sorry. One neighbor, Mary Ann Cox,

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00:08:54,516 --> 00:08:57,836
Speaker 1: believed Mary Jane then went out and returned her lodgings

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00:08:57,916 --> 00:09:01,036
Speaker 1: later with a man a last saw her alive on

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00:09:01,116 --> 00:09:06,276
Speaker 1: Thursday night at Court to twelve, very much intoxicated, yet

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00:09:06,316 --> 00:09:09,276
Speaker 1: none of the area's publicans claimed to have seen or

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00:09:09,356 --> 00:09:12,716
Speaker 1: served her. That night. Cox stated that Mary Jane and

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00:09:12,756 --> 00:09:16,236
Speaker 1: her company disappeared into her room, though not before she

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00:09:16,316 --> 00:09:20,156
Speaker 1: had uttered the words good night. I am going to

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00:09:20,196 --> 00:09:25,356
Speaker 1: have a song. Then the door bang shut, and a

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00:09:25,396 --> 00:09:28,396
Speaker 1: glimmer of light began to shine from behind her crudely

120
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Speaker 1: curtained window. After a moment or so of silence, Cox

121
00:09:33,356 --> 00:09:39,636
Speaker 1: heard Mary Jane's voice rise, scenes of my childhood, her

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Speaker 1: rise before my gaze, bringing wreck collections of by gone

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Speaker 1: happy days when down in the middle childhood, I would

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Speaker 1: a rome. No one's left to Jimmy. Now within that

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Speaker 1: good old home, Cox seemed certain that she heard her

126
00:10:04,956 --> 00:10:08,556
Speaker 1: neighbor singing until around one am at least, But as

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Speaker 1: with so many of the witness testimonies in the Ripper Murders,

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00:10:11,996 --> 00:10:17,876
Speaker 1: there are omissions, questions, and inconsistencies, And what precisely happened

129
00:10:17,876 --> 00:10:20,396
Speaker 1: to Mary Jane's male visitor in the course of this

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00:10:20,476 --> 00:10:24,956
Speaker 1: hour and fifteen minute concert is anyone's guess. The small

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00:10:25,156 --> 00:10:34,636
Speaker 1: wilt I plucked from mother's gray A woman who lived above.

132
00:10:34,756 --> 00:10:37,956
Speaker 1: Mary Jane claimed that she could hear most sounds clearly

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Speaker 1: through the thin walls and floor, and at one thirty

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00:10:41,156 --> 00:10:46,236
Speaker 1: am nothing stirred in her neighbor's room. At some point

135
00:10:46,556 --> 00:10:49,876
Speaker 1: in the very early hours of November ninth, Mary Jane

136
00:10:49,876 --> 00:10:52,876
Speaker 1: decided to bring an end to her day and retire

137
00:10:52,916 --> 00:10:56,996
Speaker 1: to sleep. She removed her clothes, piece by piece, a

138
00:10:57,076 --> 00:11:01,276
Speaker 1: few shabby items from a once resplendent wardrobe now diminished

139
00:11:01,276 --> 00:11:04,796
Speaker 1: by wear hems, dragged along the uneven pavements of white

140
00:11:04,876 --> 00:11:09,636
Speaker 1: chapel and fabric splashed with beer and gin all the same.

141
00:11:10,196 --> 00:11:13,636
Speaker 1: She folded each article neatly and placed them on her chair.

142
00:11:14,276 --> 00:11:17,356
Speaker 1: The flame of her only candle, which she had balanced

143
00:11:17,396 --> 00:11:21,916
Speaker 1: on a broken wineglass, would have gutted and bobbed until

144
00:11:22,076 --> 00:11:33,076
Speaker 1: snuffed out. The following day, police inspector Abeleine examined the

145
00:11:33,116 --> 00:11:36,676
Speaker 1: crime scene and took an inventory of the room. There

146
00:11:36,716 --> 00:11:40,076
Speaker 1: were traces of a large fire having been kept up

147
00:11:40,076 --> 00:11:43,156
Speaker 1: in the grate, so much so that it had melted

148
00:11:43,196 --> 00:11:45,676
Speaker 1: the spout of the ket love. It appeared as if

149
00:11:45,676 --> 00:11:49,196
Speaker 1: a large quantity of women's clothing had been burnt. I

150
00:11:49,236 --> 00:11:51,356
Speaker 1: could only imagine that it was to make a light

151
00:11:51,556 --> 00:11:54,596
Speaker 1: for the men to see what he was doing. The

152
00:11:54,716 --> 00:11:58,916
Speaker 1: ripper appeared to have spent considerable time inflicting Mary Jane's wounds.

153
00:11:59,636 --> 00:12:03,716
Speaker 1: Her injuries were extensive and elaborate, such that it would

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00:12:03,756 --> 00:12:06,116
Speaker 1: have been difficult for even those who knew her to

155
00:12:06,196 --> 00:12:11,236
Speaker 1: recognize her. Certain detail of the murder, deemed too horrific

156
00:12:11,316 --> 00:12:15,476
Speaker 1: for any audience, were suppressed from the coroner's inquest, though

157
00:12:15,516 --> 00:12:18,636
Speaker 1: many of them were printed by the press around the world.

158
00:12:19,356 --> 00:12:23,356
Speaker 1: Foul Fiend resumes his ghastly work in London. The city

159
00:12:23,396 --> 00:12:27,076
Speaker 1: has again stirred to its very center, and again mysterious

160
00:12:27,156 --> 00:12:31,996
Speaker 1: murder is the cause. And yet, despite the extensive coverage,

161
00:12:32,396 --> 00:12:35,556
Speaker 1: not one friend or relation from the past appears to

162
00:12:35,596 --> 00:12:38,596
Speaker 1: have recognized her name or any part of her story

163
00:12:38,876 --> 00:12:43,036
Speaker 1: enough to come forward and verify her history. Mary Jen

164
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Speaker 1: Kelly remained an enigma. Figures like Mary Jane raised questions

165
00:12:51,556 --> 00:12:56,236
Speaker 1: of historical responsibility. There are gaping voids in her life story,

166
00:12:56,636 --> 00:12:59,076
Speaker 1: and as a historian, I can use my knowledge of

167
00:12:59,076 --> 00:13:03,156
Speaker 1: the Victorian world to suggest likely scenarios to fill these gaps,

168
00:13:03,796 --> 00:13:08,516
Speaker 1: But without reliable sources names are birth certificates, passenger lists,

169
00:13:08,596 --> 00:13:12,756
Speaker 1: or rent b I simply cannot say anything concrete or

170
00:13:12,916 --> 00:13:17,876
Speaker 1: definitive that hasn't stopped others. Though writers and filmmakers have

171
00:13:17,996 --> 00:13:22,276
Speaker 1: fabricated all kinds of stories about Mary Jane, often presenting

172
00:13:22,316 --> 00:13:26,156
Speaker 1: them as fact. She's popular on the Ripper Ology forums too.

173
00:13:27,236 --> 00:13:30,396
Speaker 1: Threads about Mary Jane Kelly musing over her injuries and

174
00:13:30,556 --> 00:13:36,756
Speaker 1: identity vastly outnumber discussions on any of the other four victims. Crucially,

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Speaker 1: Mary Jane often receives special treatment. The nineteen sixty five

176
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Speaker 1: book Autumn of Terror is a case in point, says

177
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Speaker 1: expert on Ripper writings, Rebecca Frost. It calls the first

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00:13:48,396 --> 00:13:52,916
Speaker 1: four victims dregs of wretched humanity. It was among this

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00:13:53,116 --> 00:13:57,236
Speaker 1: flatsum that Mary Kelly drifted borne along by the tide,

180
00:13:57,396 --> 00:14:01,596
Speaker 1: yet remaining aloof as befits an Amazon queen. When some

181
00:14:01,636 --> 00:14:05,276
Speaker 1: women are called gliding queens while others are dismissed as

182
00:14:05,396 --> 00:14:09,996
Speaker 1: drifting trash, it's a certainty that something has gone very wrong.

183
00:14:12,036 --> 00:14:22,036
Speaker 1: But more on that. After this short break, all we

184
00:14:22,116 --> 00:14:25,636
Speaker 1: know about her is what she told to her boyfriends.

185
00:14:25,996 --> 00:14:30,316
Speaker 1: Rebecca Frost is correct. After Mary Jane's murder, Joseph Barnett

186
00:14:30,396 --> 00:14:33,956
Speaker 1: became the primary narrator of her life. Story. The little

187
00:14:33,996 --> 00:14:36,556
Speaker 1: we know of Mary Jane is thanks to his earnest

188
00:14:36,636 --> 00:14:41,156
Speaker 1: but fraught testimony stammered out before a judgmental coroner's jury.

189
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Speaker 1: Everyone else has multiple points of comparison, So you have

190
00:14:44,876 --> 00:14:47,476
Speaker 1: like Polly's husband can say this, her children can say this,

191
00:14:47,876 --> 00:14:50,636
Speaker 1: Kate's long term boyfriend says this, her daughter says this.

192
00:14:50,996 --> 00:14:54,236
Speaker 1: But Mary Jane Kelly exists only in the stories she

193
00:14:54,356 --> 00:14:57,396
Speaker 1: told about herself. As with the Ripper, a lack of

194
00:14:57,436 --> 00:15:00,996
Speaker 1: corroborated knowledge about Mary Jane has made her a blank

195
00:15:01,076 --> 00:15:05,316
Speaker 1: page on which to inscribe fanciful theories. Over the years,

196
00:15:05,756 --> 00:15:08,556
Speaker 1: it's been suggested that Mary Jane was the victim of

197
00:15:08,716 --> 00:15:12,996
Speaker 1: ritual religious sacrifice, or she fell prey to a deranged

198
00:15:13,036 --> 00:15:17,516
Speaker 1: abortionist Jill the Ripper. Others claim she faked her own death,

199
00:15:17,676 --> 00:15:21,396
Speaker 1: leaving a faceless corpse. Even in the earliest coverage of

200
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Speaker 1: the Ripper murders, there was something special about Mary Jane,

201
00:15:25,636 --> 00:15:29,276
Speaker 1: something different. She's already separated from the others because she

202
00:15:29,436 --> 00:15:32,756
Speaker 1: is younger, and she gets described as being beautiful. We

203
00:15:32,876 --> 00:15:35,076
Speaker 1: don't actually know what she looked like because all of

204
00:15:35,076 --> 00:15:38,036
Speaker 1: these descriptions says she's blonder, brunette, or she's got black hair,

205
00:15:38,116 --> 00:15:40,716
Speaker 1: or she's a righthead, but there's this idea that she

206
00:15:40,876 --> 00:15:45,196
Speaker 1: was absolutely young and gorgeous and truly attractive. The reading

207
00:15:45,236 --> 00:15:48,076
Speaker 1: public in the Victorian era would have been primed by

208
00:15:48,076 --> 00:15:52,156
Speaker 1: the conventions of Gothic literature to appreciate beauty and death

209
00:15:52,236 --> 00:15:56,476
Speaker 1: in combination, and to see the dead body as somehow

210
00:15:56,676 --> 00:16:00,276
Speaker 1: an object of desire. The death of a beautiful woman

211
00:16:00,756 --> 00:16:05,156
Speaker 1: is unquestionably the most poetical topic in the world a

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00:16:05,276 --> 00:16:09,836
Speaker 1: Girl and Poe had declared. One enterprising publisher even placed

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Speaker 1: newspaper adverts for pose novella Murders in the Room Morgue

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Speaker 1: beside coverage of Mary Jane's death, saying it would be

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Speaker 1: read with special interest at the present time. Mary Jane

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Speaker 1: was known to have been involved in the sex trade,

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Speaker 1: and she was the only victim to have the word

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Speaker 1: prostitute actually listed on her death certificate. In books and films,

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Speaker 1: she also tends to be the most overtly sexualized of

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Speaker 1: the Ripper's victims. She's often played by an attractive Hollywood

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Speaker 1: star and given a storyline that singles her out. Take

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Speaker 1: the two thousand and one movie from Hell, where Heather

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Speaker 1: Graham takes up the Mary Jane Kelly Mantle in this

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Speaker 1: particular ripper myth, Mary Jane and Inspector Abeline, an opium

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Speaker 1: addict played by Johnny Depp, are in love. In this fiction,

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Speaker 1: the doomed women are all friends, and they share the

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Speaker 1: screen in costumes that owe more to victorious secret than

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Speaker 1: Victorian poverty. That's not what they would have looked like,

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Speaker 1: That's not how they would have dressed. But if Johnny

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Speaker 1: Depp is going to be talking to them and spending

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Speaker 1: so much time concerned about them, we need to have

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Speaker 1: that sort of visual indication that these women are worthy

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Speaker 1: of that time and attention. Not unlike Gothic fiction, which

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Speaker 1: connected cruelty and pain with beauty and sexual desire from hell,

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Speaker 1: also links sex and violence. Julia Skelly, an art historian,

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Speaker 1: remembers watching the film as a teenager. Heather Graham had

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Speaker 1: this super artificial red hair. I remember that very clearly.

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Speaker 1: They tried to make it a love story between her

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Speaker 1: and Johnny Depth, an opium addicted detective, And what I

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Speaker 1: remember most from that movie was this moment that's supposed

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Speaker 1: to be sexually titillating, romantic, even God forbid, where Johnny

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Speaker 1: Depp pushes this woman up against the wall to kiss her.

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Speaker 1: In hindsight, very much part of this normalization of violence

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Speaker 1: towards women, where rape behavior on the part of male

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Speaker 1: subjects is supposed to be romantic. Billy Jensen, a journalist

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Speaker 1: who focuses on unsolved murders and missing persons, sees the

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Speaker 1: conflation of violence and sex crop up time and again

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Speaker 1: in the most popular crime coverage. When you look at

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Speaker 1: the biggest stories of true crime, the cases are all

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Speaker 1: about young, attractive females. And I've been in newsrooms and

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Speaker 1: I've been on TV shows where if the victim is

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Speaker 1: not up to a certain part, that story is only

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Speaker 1: going to get five minutes as opposed to thirty minutes.

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Speaker 1: And when you take a look at Mary Jane Kelly, yes,

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Speaker 1: she was quote unquote the last victim, and she was

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Speaker 1: brutalized more than the other women. But I also think

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Speaker 1: as well it is because of her youth and sexualization

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Speaker 1: of her. For some Mary Jane's murder also seems to

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Speaker 1: hold the unique promise of unlocking the entire Ripper mystery.

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Speaker 1: Mary Jane Kelly is last, and she is the most

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Speaker 1: brutally murdered, So therefore we want to look at the

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Speaker 1: question of motive. We want to explain why was she last.

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Speaker 1: Some authors and ripporologists have answered that question by stating

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Speaker 1: that Mary Jane must have been the true intended target

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Speaker 1: of the Ripper killings, and it's all censored around this

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Speaker 1: idea that Mary Jane Kelly had to deserve it because

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Speaker 1: she was the most mutilated, this idea that it was personal.

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Speaker 1: Back in nineteen twenty nine, Australian journalist Leonard Matters published

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Speaker 1: the first full length book investigating Jack the Ripper. In

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Speaker 1: Matters account of killing a physician he calls Doctor Stanley,

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Speaker 1: sets out to avenge the death of a son who

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00:19:54,236 --> 00:19:59,076
Speaker 1: fatally contracted syphilis from Mary Jane Kelly. He's going looking

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Speaker 1: for Mary Jane Kelly, and he's just killing anybody who

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Speaker 1: gives him any advice on it so that nobody can

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Speaker 1: trace his path. But Mary Jane Kelly is the person

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Speaker 1: he has a personal She's at fault because she didn't

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00:20:12,396 --> 00:20:17,036
Speaker 1: care that she was passing on this disease. The idea

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Speaker 1: that Mary Jane Kelly was somehow to blame for all

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00:20:19,596 --> 00:20:23,636
Speaker 1: the murders recurs again and again. Often it goes all

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Speaker 1: the way to the top Mary Jane meets her end

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00:20:26,636 --> 00:20:30,076
Speaker 1: because she's embroiled in some royal scandal. There are several

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Speaker 1: variations on this theme, which we've touched on before. One

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00:20:33,636 --> 00:20:38,276
Speaker 1: of my favorites because it's absolutely awful but super creative,

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00:20:38,596 --> 00:20:41,596
Speaker 1: says that Mary Jane Kelly was actually pregnant by the

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Speaker 1: Prince of Wales in John Wilding's nineteen ninety three book,

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00:20:45,196 --> 00:20:48,676
Speaker 1: The Prince's Friends go on a murderous rampage designed at

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Speaker 1: first to eliminate the secret of Mary Jane's pregnancy. We

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00:20:52,476 --> 00:20:54,956
Speaker 1: get to the point though, where Queen Victoria finds out

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Speaker 1: what is happening, and she does not want any possible

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00:20:58,116 --> 00:21:01,356
Speaker 1: descendant of her beloved Albert to be murdered, so it

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00:21:01,556 --> 00:21:04,876
Speaker 1: changes to we're going to keep murdering so we can

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00:21:04,916 --> 00:21:09,956
Speaker 1: fake Mary Jane Kelly's death. So she personally chooses Liz

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00:21:10,116 --> 00:21:14,276
Speaker 1: and Kate to die, and then she also puts somebody

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Speaker 1: in her room that night to be killed and mutilated

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00:21:17,356 --> 00:21:19,396
Speaker 1: to the point where nobody can tell it wasn't her.

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Speaker 1: She ends up participating in these murders so that she

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Speaker 1: can go on have her baby and level life of luxury.

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00:21:26,956 --> 00:21:29,836
Speaker 1: Of course, there's not a shred of evidence for any

299
00:21:29,836 --> 00:21:34,796
Speaker 1: of this. What others see in Mary Jane's disfigured and

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Speaker 1: outraged body is the chance to reveal the identity of

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Speaker 1: the killer from the knife marks left on her bones

302
00:21:41,276 --> 00:21:45,476
Speaker 1: during the hours he spent elaborately mutilating her. The ripper

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00:21:45,676 --> 00:21:49,436
Speaker 1: might just have left behind some key evidence, a unique

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00:21:49,436 --> 00:21:54,516
Speaker 1: part of himself that will expose him. Unlike the previous

305
00:21:54,596 --> 00:21:58,236
Speaker 1: Ripper victims, she was killed in a private room, were

306
00:21:58,236 --> 00:22:02,916
Speaker 1: her murderer lingered that enclosed space was a source of intrigue.

307
00:22:03,236 --> 00:22:07,156
Speaker 1: Even in the earliest coverage of the crime, newspapers published

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00:22:07,156 --> 00:22:10,356
Speaker 1: sketches of her room and its layout. The readers to

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00:22:10,596 --> 00:22:13,876
Speaker 1: pull over. You're supposed to be able to sort of

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Speaker 1: shut off the empathy part in your brain that acknowledges

311
00:22:16,996 --> 00:22:20,916
Speaker 1: this was a person and turn on that CSI laser

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00:22:20,956 --> 00:22:24,476
Speaker 1: eyesights that's going to show you all the clues. Seeing

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00:22:24,516 --> 00:22:27,196
Speaker 1: the crimes through the eyes of a detective can be thrilling,

314
00:22:27,836 --> 00:22:32,676
Speaker 1: but it can also be dehumanizing. Forensic photography, a relatively

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00:22:32,716 --> 00:22:36,116
Speaker 1: new practice at the time, was used to document the scene.

316
00:22:36,596 --> 00:22:41,116
Speaker 1: Mary Jane's lifeless and brutalized form was forever fixed in

317
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Speaker 1: two horrifying snapshots you're looking not at even the body

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Speaker 1: as a whole. You're looking at the wounds, at the injuries,

319
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Speaker 1: and you're already starting to tell yourself a story about them.

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Speaker 1: So if you start with the description of a woman

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Speaker 1: whose throat was slits, your mind is meant to already

322
00:22:57,916 --> 00:23:00,636
Speaker 1: go to was the killer left or right handed? What

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00:23:00,676 --> 00:23:03,396
Speaker 1: weapons did he use? Was it he or she? Can

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00:23:03,396 --> 00:23:06,156
Speaker 1: we tell how tall they were? Everything about that dead

325
00:23:06,196 --> 00:23:08,956
Speaker 1: woman is meant to be a signpost pointing you towards

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Speaker 1: the Mary Jane Kelly. The real flesh and blood woman

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00:23:13,556 --> 00:23:17,236
Speaker 1: has vanished, and the figure in her place belongs to

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00:23:17,276 --> 00:23:23,316
Speaker 1: the realm of make believe. Somehow, this Mary Jane manages

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00:23:23,356 --> 00:23:26,676
Speaker 1: to be both the archetype of youthful charm and beauty

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Speaker 1: to admire and desire, and simultaneously a defiled object at

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00:23:33,236 --> 00:23:39,196
Speaker 1: which to gork. The ripper retold would be back after

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Speaker 1: this short break. In the wake of Mary Jane's murder,

333
00:23:54,196 --> 00:23:58,316
Speaker 1: the police conducted house to house inquiries and searches, interviewing

334
00:23:58,356 --> 00:24:01,036
Speaker 1: possible witnesses about what they had seen and heard on

335
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Speaker 1: that fateful night, But nothing concrete or conclusive came of

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00:24:04,916 --> 00:24:08,756
Speaker 1: all these efforts. Doctor Thomas bond, who had conducted Mary

337
00:24:08,836 --> 00:24:12,556
Speaker 1: Jane's postmortem, theorized that all the victims must have been

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00:24:12,636 --> 00:24:15,956
Speaker 1: lying down when they were murdered, and profiled the offender

339
00:24:16,036 --> 00:24:19,636
Speaker 1: as a man of physical strength and of great coolness

340
00:24:19,716 --> 00:24:25,036
Speaker 1: and daring acquired inoffensive looking man, probably neatly and respectably dressed.

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00:24:25,756 --> 00:24:29,516
Speaker 1: Suspects were investigated, but no one was charged with any

342
00:24:29,556 --> 00:24:33,836
Speaker 1: of the murders. Yet again, the ripper had evaded captured.

343
00:24:34,556 --> 00:24:37,516
Speaker 1: The excitement in the neighborhood is intense, and some of

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00:24:37,556 --> 00:24:41,036
Speaker 1: the low women with whom that street abounds appear more

345
00:24:41,076 --> 00:24:47,276
Speaker 1: like fiends than human beings. Terror once more gripped Whitechapel, fermented,

346
00:24:47,276 --> 00:24:50,356
Speaker 1: of course by the press. Some parts of the murdered

347
00:24:50,396 --> 00:24:55,596
Speaker 1: bodies are missing. Why because this fiend has possessed himself

348
00:24:55,676 --> 00:24:59,716
Speaker 1: of as the Indian warrior did the scalps of his victims.

349
00:25:00,436 --> 00:25:04,036
Speaker 1: So great was the panic that reportedly the police struggled

350
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Speaker 1: to maintain law and order on the streets. At one point,

351
00:25:07,996 --> 00:25:11,676
Speaker 1: a mob threatened to lynch a suspicious looking man. It

352
00:25:11,796 --> 00:25:14,836
Speaker 1: turned out that this fellow fancied himself as a detective

353
00:25:15,196 --> 00:25:17,676
Speaker 1: and had been criss crossing the East End in various

354
00:25:17,716 --> 00:25:22,556
Speaker 1: disguises hoping to catch the ripper himself. Even Queen Victoria

355
00:25:22,716 --> 00:25:26,236
Speaker 1: intervened with a telegram to the Prime Minister. This new

356
00:25:26,316 --> 00:25:31,556
Speaker 1: ghastly murder shows the absolute necessity for some very decided action.

357
00:25:32,076 --> 00:25:34,996
Speaker 1: It seemed that the Queen had some theories of her own.

358
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Speaker 1: Is there sufficient surveillance at night? The murderer's clothes must

359
00:25:40,476 --> 00:25:44,596
Speaker 1: be a saturated with blood and kept somewhere. Has any

360
00:25:44,676 --> 00:25:47,676
Speaker 1: investigation been made as to the number of single men

361
00:25:47,836 --> 00:25:52,596
Speaker 1: occupying rooms to themselves? Half the cattle boats and passenger

362
00:25:52,636 --> 00:25:59,596
Speaker 1: boats being examined. But the Ripper's murderous campaign had apparently

363
00:25:59,676 --> 00:26:03,516
Speaker 1: come to an end. Impoverished women continued to be killed

364
00:26:03,556 --> 00:26:07,076
Speaker 1: in Whitechapel, but the police did not attribute these murders

365
00:26:07,116 --> 00:26:09,356
Speaker 1: to the culprit thought to have claimed the live of

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00:26:09,396 --> 00:26:13,996
Speaker 1: Polly Anny, Elizabeth Kate and Mary Jane. It was supposed

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Speaker 1: that the ripper stopped killing for various possible reasons. Perhaps

368
00:26:17,796 --> 00:26:21,396
Speaker 1: he had died or emigrated, perhaps he'd been locked away

369
00:26:21,436 --> 00:26:25,116
Speaker 1: in a lunatic asylum. While ripproology has ill served the

370
00:26:25,196 --> 00:26:29,796
Speaker 1: memories of Jack's victims, it ins introduced many other bystanders too.

371
00:26:30,196 --> 00:26:34,236
Speaker 1: When popular, albeit reductive vein of riproology is to accuse

372
00:26:34,356 --> 00:26:39,036
Speaker 1: Whitechapel locals from professions that employ blades and who also

373
00:26:39,276 --> 00:26:43,636
Speaker 1: had mental health problems, to demonstrate how idiotic, tasteless, and

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Speaker 1: hurtful this approach can be. In a later episode, I'll

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00:26:46,876 --> 00:26:50,356
Speaker 1: introduce you to Jacob Leavey, a Jewish butcher from Whitechapel

376
00:26:50,596 --> 00:26:53,556
Speaker 1: who struggled with mental illness and ended his days in

377
00:26:53,556 --> 00:26:57,756
Speaker 1: a nearby asylum, leaving a young widow, several children, and

378
00:26:57,836 --> 00:27:02,236
Speaker 1: a swirl of unsubstantiated claims that he was the Ripper.

379
00:27:04,276 --> 00:27:08,076
Speaker 1: In life, Mary Jane's identity have been whatever she wished

380
00:27:08,076 --> 00:27:10,796
Speaker 1: it to be, but in the wake for death she

381
00:27:10,876 --> 00:27:14,956
Speaker 1: became whatever Joseph Barnett wished to commemorate. It was he

382
00:27:15,036 --> 00:27:17,916
Speaker 1: who insisted that the name on her brass coffin plate

383
00:27:17,996 --> 00:27:21,996
Speaker 1: read Mary Jeannette Kelly, a moniker brimming with all the

384
00:27:22,076 --> 00:27:25,436
Speaker 1: flounts and flamboyance of a Saturday night in the West End.

385
00:27:26,556 --> 00:27:30,476
Speaker 1: In death, Mary Jane became something of a local heroine.

386
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Speaker 1: Her open hearse, two mourning carriages, and polished oak and

387
00:27:34,556 --> 00:27:38,196
Speaker 1: elm coffin, decorated with two floral wreaths and a cross

388
00:27:38,276 --> 00:27:42,076
Speaker 1: of heartseed, was as much a show of defiance against

389
00:27:42,116 --> 00:27:45,436
Speaker 1: the killer. As a mark of respect for Mary Jane.

390
00:27:46,036 --> 00:27:49,636
Speaker 1: This cortege attracted those wishing to gawk and drink and

391
00:27:49,796 --> 00:27:53,036
Speaker 1: exclaim at the carnival of mourning as it passed through

392
00:27:53,076 --> 00:27:57,276
Speaker 1: the streets, trailed by publicans and their best customers, as

393
00:27:57,276 --> 00:28:01,516
Speaker 1: well as the sorts of females that newspapers called unfortunates.

394
00:28:02,396 --> 00:28:05,476
Speaker 1: Women with infants on their hips watched from their doorsteps.

395
00:28:05,996 --> 00:28:10,036
Speaker 1: Men removed their hats as she passed. God forgive her,

396
00:28:10,076 --> 00:28:12,356
Speaker 1: they were said to have cried out through their sobs.

397
00:28:13,036 --> 00:28:19,116
Speaker 1: We will not forget her because she called herself Kelly,

398
00:28:19,436 --> 00:28:21,836
Speaker 1: and because she claimed to have been born in Ireland.

399
00:28:22,436 --> 00:28:26,156
Speaker 1: Mary Jane was interred at a Catholic cemetery in East London.

400
00:28:27,036 --> 00:28:30,076
Speaker 1: A headstone bearing her name can still be found here,

401
00:28:30,596 --> 00:28:34,636
Speaker 1: the product of a later campaign to honor her memory. Today,

402
00:28:34,836 --> 00:28:38,076
Speaker 1: visitors pay homage to Mary Jane at her supposed graveside,

403
00:28:38,596 --> 00:28:42,756
Speaker 1: leaving behind gifts of flowers, candles, and tiny bottles of gin.

404
00:28:43,716 --> 00:28:46,116
Speaker 1: But in the one hundred and thirty years since her burial,

405
00:28:46,836 --> 00:28:51,556
Speaker 1: Mary Jane hasn't entirely rested in peace. One of the

406
00:28:51,636 --> 00:28:55,396
Speaker 1: crowning affronts to Mary Jane's memory have been the attempts

407
00:28:55,396 --> 00:28:59,796
Speaker 1: to exhume her body. Her remains in particular are of

408
00:28:59,956 --> 00:29:03,676
Speaker 1: enormous interest because he spent more time with her body.

409
00:29:03,836 --> 00:29:07,356
Speaker 1: If we had a chance to find her remains. Are

410
00:29:07,396 --> 00:29:09,716
Speaker 1: their tool marks on it? Are there knife cuts on it?

411
00:29:10,196 --> 00:29:12,596
Speaker 1: What might we learn about what Jack the Ripper did

412
00:29:12,956 --> 00:29:15,396
Speaker 1: from looking at her? And what did they miss at

413
00:29:15,396 --> 00:29:18,196
Speaker 1: the time, which would have been a lot. A few

414
00:29:18,276 --> 00:29:21,476
Speaker 1: years ago, crime writer Patricia Cornwell reached out to my

415
00:29:21,556 --> 00:29:25,356
Speaker 1: friend doctor Torry King, a leading expert on genetics, who

416
00:29:25,356 --> 00:29:28,276
Speaker 1: had led a successful project to identify the remains of

417
00:29:28,356 --> 00:29:32,196
Speaker 1: English King Richard the Third, and she just said, look,

418
00:29:32,276 --> 00:29:35,436
Speaker 1: I am very interested in Jack the Ripper? Is this true?

419
00:29:35,556 --> 00:29:38,596
Speaker 1: Could we do this? The idea of exhuming Mary Jane's

420
00:29:38,636 --> 00:29:41,516
Speaker 1: body was on patricious radar because of a man named

421
00:29:41,556 --> 00:29:45,516
Speaker 1: Win Weston Davis, who claimed to be a descendant so

422
00:29:45,796 --> 00:29:49,756
Speaker 1: his great aunt, a woman called Elizabeth Weston Davies, who,

423
00:29:49,876 --> 00:29:51,596
Speaker 1: as far as we can tell from what he says,

424
00:29:51,716 --> 00:29:55,196
Speaker 1: does appear to have become a prostitute in London. She

425
00:29:55,356 --> 00:29:58,236
Speaker 1: doesn't appear to be in the eighteen ninety one census,

426
00:29:58,236 --> 00:30:01,596
Speaker 1: but that's not uncommon. People do disappear from censuses, and

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00:30:01,636 --> 00:30:03,556
Speaker 1: I understand that there was a family story that his

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00:30:03,836 --> 00:30:05,996
Speaker 1: great aunt had met sort of with a nasty end,

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00:30:05,996 --> 00:30:09,316
Speaker 1: and somewhere along the way this has gotten conflated with

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00:30:09,356 --> 00:30:15,756
Speaker 1: her being Mary Jane Kelly. I find it all incredibly tenuous. However,

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00:30:15,996 --> 00:30:19,316
Speaker 1: he was in the press claiming that if you could

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00:30:19,356 --> 00:30:21,436
Speaker 1: find a lab, he could get a license from the

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00:30:21,436 --> 00:30:24,916
Speaker 1: Ministry of Justice to exhume her remains. Patricia wanted to

434
00:30:24,956 --> 00:30:27,956
Speaker 1: know if they could analyze Mary Jane Kelly's DNA and

435
00:30:28,036 --> 00:30:31,076
Speaker 1: restore her real name. Yes, that's possible, we could do

436
00:30:31,156 --> 00:30:35,316
Speaker 1: genetic analysis. But what's really critical for this is that

437
00:30:35,356 --> 00:30:37,276
Speaker 1: you have to know that the remains that you are

438
00:30:37,356 --> 00:30:41,276
Speaker 1: looking at are those of Mary Jane Kelly. So that

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00:30:41,396 --> 00:30:43,676
Speaker 1: then brought us to the question of okay, so where

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00:30:43,676 --> 00:30:47,076
Speaker 1: are Mary Jane Kelly's remains. Mary Jane was buried in

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00:30:47,116 --> 00:30:50,436
Speaker 1: a communal grave that at the time was unmarked. She

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00:30:50,516 --> 00:30:52,916
Speaker 1: had a number of people who were buried below her,

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00:30:53,076 --> 00:30:56,836
Speaker 1: and then they put in graves with multiple people all

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00:30:56,836 --> 00:30:59,916
Speaker 1: around her. So this is an eighteen eighty eight years later,

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00:30:59,996 --> 00:31:03,396
Speaker 1: the land was reclaimed and a new burial system imposed,

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00:31:03,756 --> 00:31:07,156
Speaker 1: so her present day headstone probably has no relevance to

447
00:31:07,196 --> 00:31:10,836
Speaker 1: the actual location of her remain. You don't know how

448
00:31:10,876 --> 00:31:15,356
Speaker 1: the two different kind of grave row systems match with

449
00:31:15,516 --> 00:31:17,756
Speaker 1: one another. What you can do is you can kind

450
00:31:17,796 --> 00:31:23,596
Speaker 1: of go, Okay, she's likely to have been in this area. Well,

451
00:31:23,636 --> 00:31:26,316
Speaker 1: there could be around a thousand over a thousand people

452
00:31:26,316 --> 00:31:29,036
Speaker 1: in here. The chances of us being able to come

453
00:31:29,076 --> 00:31:33,636
Speaker 1: down on a coffin that says on it, Mary Jane

454
00:31:33,716 --> 00:31:39,716
Speaker 1: Kelly is so far out there and ethically so not

455
00:31:39,956 --> 00:31:43,236
Speaker 1: right to be potentially disturbing the remains of so many

456
00:31:43,396 --> 00:31:47,076
Speaker 1: people to do this, you just wouldn't even break ground

457
00:31:47,636 --> 00:31:51,916
Speaker 1: on this project. What was Patricia's response, I mean, she

458
00:31:52,036 --> 00:31:55,196
Speaker 1: was she reasonable completely. When we talked this through, we

459
00:31:55,236 --> 00:31:57,076
Speaker 1: sort of said, look, you know this is really important.

460
00:31:57,116 --> 00:31:59,276
Speaker 1: You have to know that you've actually got Mary Jane

461
00:31:59,356 --> 00:32:00,916
Speaker 1: Kelly in order to be able to do the DNA

462
00:32:00,916 --> 00:32:03,276
Speaker 1: and elsis to compare with her great nephew. And she

463
00:32:03,436 --> 00:32:08,196
Speaker 1: was completely completely on board with all of that. She's like, yep, okay, yeah, no,

464
00:32:08,316 --> 00:32:11,196
Speaker 1: coun't go down that, but I'm going to be able

465
00:32:11,236 --> 00:32:14,796
Speaker 1: to ask about all of this for myself. I've heard

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00:32:14,836 --> 00:32:19,116
Speaker 1: back from my agent and Patricia has agreed to talk

467
00:32:23,676 --> 00:32:27,476
Speaker 1: next time on Bad Women. It's nice to meet you,

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00:32:27,756 --> 00:32:32,556
Speaker 1: however distantly and virtually nice to meet you too. To

469
00:32:32,596 --> 00:32:35,156
Speaker 1: be honest, I've been a little bit nervous about it

470
00:32:35,196 --> 00:32:39,436
Speaker 1: as well. Jack the Ripper should make everybody nervous. First

471
00:32:39,436 --> 00:32:41,876
Speaker 1: of all, if you value your life and your sanity

472
00:32:41,876 --> 00:32:43,756
Speaker 1: and your well being, you'll stay as far away from

473
00:32:43,796 --> 00:32:46,916
Speaker 1: the subject as you possibly. You know, you may have

474
00:32:46,956 --> 00:32:49,876
Speaker 1: similar tales to tell, but it's quite a journey when

475
00:32:49,916 --> 00:33:04,236
Speaker 1: you get on it. Bad Women The Ripper Were Told

476
00:33:04,396 --> 00:33:06,876
Speaker 1: is brought to you by Pushkin Industries and Me Hallie

477
00:33:06,916 --> 00:33:09,316
Speaker 1: rubin Hold, and is based on my book The Five.

478
00:33:09,916 --> 00:33:12,156
Speaker 1: It was produced and co written by Ryan Dilley and

479
00:33:12,156 --> 00:33:15,836
Speaker 1: Alice Fines, with help from Pete Norton. Pascal Wise's Sound

480
00:33:15,876 --> 00:33:19,116
Speaker 1: designed and mixed the show and composed all the original music.

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00:33:19,916 --> 00:33:22,956
Speaker 1: You also heard the voice talents of Soul Boyer, Ben Crow,

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00:33:23,396 --> 00:33:27,756
Speaker 1: Sarah Bows, Melanie Gutridge, Gemma Saunders, and rufus Wright. The

483
00:33:27,836 --> 00:33:30,676
Speaker 1: show also wouldn't have been possible without the work of

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00:33:30,756 --> 00:33:35,836
Speaker 1: mir La Belle, Jacob Weisberg, Jenguera, Heather Fane, Carla mcgliori,

485
00:33:36,276 --> 00:33:41,876
Speaker 1: Maggie Taylor, Nicolemarino, Natal Mullard, Eric Sandler, and Daniella Lakhan

486
00:33:42,436 --> 00:33:45,476
Speaker 1: with special things to my agents Sarah Ballard and Ellie

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00:33:45,516 --> 00:33:45,836
Speaker 1: Karen