1 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:11,200 Speaker 1: I am so excited everyone. My guest today is someone 2 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: I've really wanted to talk to in depth for a 3 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:19,760 Speaker 1: long long time. She is the extraordinary Annie Liebowitz, an 4 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:23,440 Speaker 1: artist whose fame rightly reflects her talent and her output. 5 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: I have known Annie for many years. I am amongst 6 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: the lucky people who have been the subject of her lens. 7 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: Annie and I have a few things in common. Several actually. 8 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:38,199 Speaker 1: We have both just published a new version of a 9 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:42,479 Speaker 1: classic book. We come from large families, and our fathers 10 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: were influential in our careers. We share a love of photography. 11 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: Some might say we're obsessive in our pursuits and our work. 12 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: We've even had the same assistant at one point. It's 13 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: my great pleasure to have Annie as my guest today. 14 00:00:57,560 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to my podcast. 15 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 2: Annie Leebowitz talked me into it. This is the very 16 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 2: first podcast I've ever done. I'm sort of like, you know, 17 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 2: I admire and respect you so much, and you know, 18 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 2: you've always come through every time I've. 19 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 3: Said let's work together. And I just said, let's okay, 20 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 3: I'm going to jump in. 21 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:17,040 Speaker 2: And also, we have this wonderful reissuing of the women's 22 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 2: book from nineteen ninety nine. 23 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 1: And in which I have a page or two pages. 24 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,119 Speaker 1: It was such a beautiful, beautiful picture. I just look 25 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:27,119 Speaker 1: at it every now and then when I'm plumbing through 26 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 1: your book. Your books are out in my house, and 27 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: this new volume is so fabulous. Two volumes in a slipcase, 28 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 1: very heavy, just came out, just came out, and you're 29 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 1: starting a book tour. 30 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 2: You are the very first person I'm stopping off to see. 31 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 2: So it's interesting. There are a couple people who are 32 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 2: in the first volume and then in the second volume. 33 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 2: But the first volume, which was done in nineteen ninety nine, 34 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 2: was Susan Sontag's idea to do this, a book of 35 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 2: portraits of women. I wasn't too it was a good 36 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 2: idea because the subject was too big and too broad. 37 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 2: But we did it, and you were looking at us 38 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 2: women for the first I mean, you could see what 39 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 2: we sort of looked like. 40 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:12,920 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, we had no idea. 41 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 2: It was a big surprise to us to see what 42 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:17,360 Speaker 2: we looked like. So you're in that first volume, and 43 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 2: I just what I do remember about that picture is 44 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:23,519 Speaker 2: that you were at the pinnacle of everything you were doing, 45 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 2: and you took me out in your truck, you know, 46 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 2: driving Fairfield property. Yeah, and there was this moment where 47 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 2: you paused. You were in the back of the truck 48 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 2: and you kind of leaned on the truck. And it 49 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,920 Speaker 2: was such an unusual picture for you at that time 50 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 2: because you're usually smiling in every picture and you're, you know, 51 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 2: very robust, and it was just this moment that was 52 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 2: a kind of an off moment, more of a meditative moment, 53 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:56,079 Speaker 2: because you know, you are a very serious person as 54 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 2: well as everything else you do. I ended up really 55 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 2: loving that picture. I'm putting that in. 56 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: I love that picture. But that wasn't the first time 57 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 1: that I posed for your camera. First time was nineteen 58 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 1: ninety six when I got a call. There was a 59 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:16,239 Speaker 1: campaign that was in every single magazine everywhere called Milk, 60 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 1: and it was encouraging people to drink milk. And you 61 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 1: had a milk mustache, which was applied with a Q tip. 62 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 1: By the way, they had a special thick milk to 63 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: put it was like soud formula. Yeah, it was sour 64 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: cream and a few other yogurt. Not untasty, it was okay, 65 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: but we had it put on our lip, our upper lip, 66 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 1: so that we looked like We had a milk mustache, 67 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: and I posed with Clover the cow, a beautiful big 68 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: Holstein cow. And after the shoot, you know, the farmer 69 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: called me and asked me if I wanted Clover. He 70 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: wanted me to adopt her. Oh, no, I did, and 71 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 1: I didn't. At that time. I didn't have a place 72 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: for a cow. I do now, but that time I 73 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 1: did not have a place for a cow. And I 74 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: think she made her way into McDonald's Hamburger's. 75 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 2: We did over one hundred and fifty milk had you know, 76 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 2: I was just thinking about the roster. Everyone you know 77 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 2: did them, and we had to create a mustache that 78 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 2: if you licked. If you ended up licking your lips, 79 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 2: you didn't, you were to get you were going to 80 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 2: kill over and die. And it wasn't made out of 81 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 2: you know, paint or toxic or I think it seemed 82 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 2: like the right idea to go to the source for milk. 83 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 3: You were great. That was great. It's actually one of 84 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:34,280 Speaker 3: my favorite ones. 85 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: Oh and I was not afraid of Clover. I mean, 86 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 1: I'm sure some of your subjects might not have liked 87 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 1: standing so close to a giant cow who weighed a 88 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 1: couple of thousand pounds, but she was lovely. So you 89 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 1: publish your original volume of women in nineteen ninety nine, 90 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: and now you have published this new volume with photos 91 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 1: from the past few decades. 92 00:04:55,440 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 2: I had no thought about reissuing the original book. Boo. 93 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 2: Hillary Clinton had come to me and said it'd be 94 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:07,160 Speaker 2: nice to commemorate the original book. It was out of print, 95 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 2: and it was her suggestion that we reprinted. And I 96 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 2: sat and looked through the book. It really felt timeless, 97 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:15,359 Speaker 2: you know, on some level it. 98 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 1: Was very timeless. 99 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 3: It really holds up well. 100 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 2: And I thought, you know, it's been twenty five years 101 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:26,159 Speaker 2: since that book, and I have photographs such great women 102 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 2: since that time, incredible women. When you read the bios 103 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 2: in the second volume and realize who those women are, 104 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 2: it's like it's so powerful. The bio read is better 105 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,919 Speaker 2: than looking at the pictures. I made a decision to 106 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 2: look through the work from nineteen ninety nine on photographs 107 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 2: of women that I had done and make an edit. 108 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 2: So the second book is really different than the first book. 109 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 2: The second book really has not only photographs that I love, 110 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 2: but also women that I admire. It's not like the 111 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 2: first book, which it was very, very focused on trying 112 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 2: to see women from all walks of life. 113 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 1: Right, So these are women that you have admired. Name 114 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: somebody who was just all inspiring that in this new 115 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: volume for you to photograph. You have such power to 116 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 1: be able to go and photograph the most incredible people 117 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 1: everywhere who is so inspiring for you in this book. 118 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 2: That's really hard to pick, you know, one over the other, 119 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:28,159 Speaker 2: because it's my favorite is a powerful well Jane Goodall. 120 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 3: You know for sure you're right Nextagen Goodall, and she 121 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 3: just passed away. 122 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 1: I loved that lady, yeah, so much. 123 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:35,720 Speaker 3: She was amazing. 124 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:38,479 Speaker 2: And first of all, I really really wished I could 125 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 2: have done her in the native habitat of. 126 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 3: You know, you know, Rwanda, or in the jungle or 127 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 3: you know, with her with her animals. 128 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:49,600 Speaker 2: But I sort of sufficed with photographing her on her 129 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 2: own because you know, I had the opportunity and it 130 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:54,359 Speaker 2: was a very quick shoot and I didn't think I 131 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 2: got anything at all. And I got back to the 132 00:06:57,320 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 2: office into the studio and started to go through the 133 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 2: work and I looked at her face. She's looking at me. 134 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:07,719 Speaker 2: It's why she has that communication ability without having to talk, 135 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 2: you know. Her face was so warm and beautiful and 136 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 2: kind of understanding. 137 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 3: It was. It's just a remarkable, remarkable look. 138 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: It was a remarkable human being. And her teaching and anthropology. 139 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: I mean this was I studied a lot of anthropology 140 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: at college at Barnard, and then when I met Jane, 141 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 1: it all came around and I realized that that's what 142 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 1: it takes to be an anthropologist. I had had a 143 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: couple classes with Margaret Meade, who was a similar really yes, 144 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: oh my god kind of person, and then, oh my god, 145 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: that has been so amazing, so amazing, And I read 146 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: all her works, read everything that she ever wrote about 147 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: her explorations down in New Guinea and all those other places, 148 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 1: and then to meet that beautiful, beautiful chimp expert. It 149 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 1: was just Jane goodall. May she rest in peace because 150 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 1: she did a lot for humanity, a lot, and also 151 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 1: for conservation. So when you set out to photograph a subject, 152 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: whether an official portrait of Queen Elizabeth or Billie Eilish. 153 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 1: My granddaughter's idol is Billy Eilish. What are fabulous pictures 154 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 1: you've taken of her? 155 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 2: No? Thank you? 156 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 1: So what is your process when you met Billy for 157 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 1: the first time? 158 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 2: Would you think, well, everyone is surprised that, you know, 159 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 2: I do research, you know, but that can't take those 160 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:33,559 Speaker 2: pictures without doing research, exactly, Sonot, you are thorough exactly. 161 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 2: So it's amazing all the film making that she and 162 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 2: her brother made while they were making their music, and 163 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 2: those were some of the best, most telling pieces of 164 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 2: information that you could use. But I was just thinking 165 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:50,200 Speaker 2: about other people in this book, you know, obviously Justice Jackson, 166 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 2: who's like a heroine. 167 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 3: The photograph was done for Vogue. It was her idea. 168 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 2: She wanted to stand at the Lincoln Memorial, a very 169 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 2: poignant moment because she was Lincoln's words off the wall. 170 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 2: And I took the picture and she's amazing. Michelle Obama 171 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 2: who agreed to sit for the book. I should say 172 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 2: she stood for the book. She stood for she stood 173 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:12,440 Speaker 2: for the bok. 174 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: That new picture of hers a little wild for a 175 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 1: first lady. 176 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 2: Her assistant was standing next to me and as we 177 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 2: were shooting, and she said, that's my first lady. 178 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: Oh boy, the way do you see this picture of 179 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: Michelle Obama in blue je You know, Yeah, she's emerging, 180 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: she's growing into herself after having been confined in the 181 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: White House. Yes, she and I think she really did 182 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 1: feel terribly confined in the White House. But Michelle, as 183 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 1: you say, is verry liberated in your new portrait. 184 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 2: She was funny because we got a call from her 185 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 2: office and said, okay, well Michelle will do it, but. 186 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 3: Can she wear jeans? 187 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 2: I said sure, you know because I photographed her three 188 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 2: or four times for covers of you know, during during 189 00:09:57,640 --> 00:09:58,560 Speaker 2: her tenure. 190 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:00,680 Speaker 1: Old gorgeous covers. By the way, no. 191 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 3: Thank you, she was, she was gorgeous. 192 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 2: President Obama, you know, I worked with him when he 193 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 2: was when he was just running for Senate. I spent 194 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:11,479 Speaker 2: a lot of time with him, and and he just said. 195 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:13,959 Speaker 3: Just make her beautiful. Just make her beautiful like. 196 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 1: He loves her. 197 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 3: He loved her. 198 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: You didn't. You didn't have to make her beautiful. 199 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:18,079 Speaker 3: He didn't have to make her beautiful. 200 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: It is beautiful, but but you make her, you make 201 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:32,839 Speaker 1: her exciting. It said that your interest in photography began 202 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: in your teenage years. Let's go back, let's go back. 203 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: You were born where? 204 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 2: Oh well, I was born in Connecticut, believe it or not, Waterbury, Connecticut, but. 205 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: I passed through Waterbury whenever I go to Maine, very 206 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:47,679 Speaker 1: industrial town. It is an industrial town that had a 207 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:49,559 Speaker 1: lot of mills. Didn't it have fabric mills? 208 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 3: My father worked in the mills. 209 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: He did. You were inspired by Life magazine and it's 210 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 1: powerful photojournalistic galleries. 211 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:59,079 Speaker 3: I was inspired by everything. Yeah, it wasn't just like 212 00:10:59,360 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 3: I mean it was. 213 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 2: I was actually inspired by I'm inspired by their picture. 214 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 3: Stories, you know, like the country doctor Eugene Smith. 215 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 1: But were you always focused on human beings with your lens? 216 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: Pretty much so of all the photographers before and after you, 217 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: whose words you look at for inspiration any any other thing. 218 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 3: I'm such a fan of photography. I drink it all up. 219 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 2: I basically learned on Cardiaprason and Robert Frank I mean, 220 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 2: you know, just reportage, and that was personal repetage. So 221 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:34,479 Speaker 2: it wasn't necessarily journalism. And I tried to do journalism, 222 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 2: but I was rotten at it because I really like 223 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:38,680 Speaker 2: having a point of that you take your time. 224 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 3: I wish I took more time. 225 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: You do. 226 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:42,719 Speaker 3: You take your time much. 227 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 2: I'm glad you're saying that, because I want to come 228 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 2: back to photograph photographing you, because I wanted to tell 229 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 2: you that I don't like the picture I did of 230 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 2: you for the book. 231 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 1: We will get back together again. I want, I want, 232 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 1: I want you to photograph you with Jude, my granddaughter. 233 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 1: Oh that would be beautiful, beautiful, you know girl, fourteen 234 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 1: year old who's so pure and beautiful. You would you 235 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: would like her? 236 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 2: Do you know? 237 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 1: This is what's And she's a good photographer. 238 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 2: What's coming full circle for me is that I do 239 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 2: think my best photographs are my family pictures and they 240 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 2: mean them, They mean the most to me. And then 241 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 2: I really do love doing family pictures for people. 242 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 3: And I think I told you that. 243 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 1: I really want to do that with my grandson, my daughter, 244 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: and my and my granddaughter. 245 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 3: Okay, so do that, So done deal. 246 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 1: That's okay? Shake. What's your favorite camera at present? 247 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:39,839 Speaker 2: I really believe it's about content and you shouldn't worry 248 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 2: about what you're using. I actually use three or four 249 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 2: different cameras. I use them for different reasons. I have 250 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:49,680 Speaker 2: a fugi, I have an icon, you know, I have Alika, 251 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:51,960 Speaker 2: I have a canon for when I want to do 252 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 2: fast repetage movement. But the camera I use all the 253 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 2: time is my camera phone, your iPhone. 254 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:01,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, I saw you taking a picture. 255 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 2: Just look, you know, you know why I think somewhere 256 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:06,319 Speaker 2: along the line, I wish I could have just had 257 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 2: a camera built inside, you know, my forehead or something, 258 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 2: so I could just shoot when I don't think about 259 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 2: you've gotten a pair of those yet, No, Oh they're good. 260 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 2: You shouldn't have to think about it. You really shouldn't. 261 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 2: I mean, you should be able to enjoy photographing. You 262 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 2: know what's in front of you? How many pictures do 263 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 2: you have in your phone right now? I mean, I'm 264 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 2: so bad about that. I mean it's like, I go, 265 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 2: I have two hundred thousands. Oh my god, I'm sure, 266 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 2: I know. And I love taking pictures. 267 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:35,440 Speaker 1: I love well. 268 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 2: Someone asked me for they want to see some some 269 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:39,439 Speaker 2: photographs of my pond upstate. 270 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 3: It's like, you know, fifteen thousand pictures come up. 271 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:46,200 Speaker 1: How do you feel when somebody calls you a portraitist. 272 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:48,560 Speaker 3: I'm fine with that. 273 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:52,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm fine with it because it's the best way 274 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 2: to sort of be able to wander and dabble through 275 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,439 Speaker 2: many different forms of photography and not worry about it. 276 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 3: I know I'm not a photojournalist. 277 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 2: And also I feel really responsible to the portraiture at 278 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 2: this point. 279 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 1: I mean the subject. 280 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 3: I mean, this is the subject. 281 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 2: The fact that we have been doing this for over 282 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,680 Speaker 2: fifty years and when you look at our time, it's amazing. 283 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 3: I was just thinking, I. 284 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 2: Brought in these pictures of Diane Keaton, you know, to 285 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 2: show you because I hassed a way a couple of 286 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 2: days ago. 287 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, she gave so much joy to so many people 288 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 1: in her films. 289 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 3: But she was you know she. 290 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 2: I knew her really because I photographed her very like 291 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 2: in the eighties with Woody, not with Woody, but just 292 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 2: she was really an artist and she was a photographer. 293 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 3: She loved photography, she loved books. 294 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 2: So when we would work together, it definitely was inspiring 295 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 2: to me to get out of the genre of what 296 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 2: you think is a typical portrait. She always wanted to 297 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 2: sort of hide herself and she would come to the 298 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 2: shoot with ideas, very serious with me, and she did 299 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 2: hide herself in her costumes, didn't she She did, But 300 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 2: I mean she had a great, great style. 301 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 3: She had a great, great style. 302 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 2: I remember doing a photograph of her, I think it 303 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 2: was for Vanny Fair and the stylist was in tears 304 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 2: because she wouldn't wear any clothes both because she basically, 305 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 2: how can you dress iron King, she's going to dress herself. 306 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: Of course. Gradon Carter said on my podcast sitting right 307 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 1: where you're sitting, that you are one of the few 308 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 1: people he knows who works harder than I work. But 309 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 1: you do work so hard, and you have worked for 310 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: a very very long time at just mastering and perfecting 311 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 1: and enlarging your craft. Where did your drive come from? 312 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 3: I think I love my work. 313 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 2: I don't know, it's as simple when you take a 314 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 2: good photograph, it feels so great. And then also this 315 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 2: other idea that when we talked about portraiture, where the 316 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 2: body of work takes over, you know, where you realize 317 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 2: that it's a really interesting And I'm in a unique 318 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 2: position in that respect to look at all of this 319 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 2: work from all this period of time. And in fact, 320 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 2: I'm going to work on like a four volume set 321 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 2: of books next for the archives. 322 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 1: Where is your archive? 323 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 3: My archive? 324 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 2: Actually, I mean I have the I own the copyright 325 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 2: and everything to all my work. But I mean right 326 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 2: now it's still in New York, but it will go 327 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 2: to Luma. Maya Hoffmann, Oh great, Yeah, it's actually comforting 328 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 2: to know that there's a place to house all that work. 329 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, Mayah Hoffman is such a visionary too, isn't she. 330 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 3: She's amazing. 331 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. Really, she used to visit her down in a mystique. Yeah, 332 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 1: and then she was building her museum in the south 333 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 1: of France, and what an extraordinary woman. 334 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 2: She let me do this edit of my early work 335 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 2: from nineteen seventy nineteen eighty three, and we took over 336 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 2: our whole warehouse. It was like a river of photographs. 337 00:16:57,200 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 2: It was so amazing to get that initial work edited. 338 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 1: How do you keep your work? I mean, do you 339 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: keep prints, do you keep negatives? Do you keep everything? 340 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 2: Early on we had prints, but now it's all digital. 341 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 2: But I still work in paper. I love to print, 342 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 2: and I'm a big fan of the xerox. I mean, 343 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:15,199 Speaker 2: I love xeroxes. Yeah, I think they're great. You know, 344 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 2: they look great. 345 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 1: What about just the home printer? 346 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 3: No, sure, I mean you can get a little better one. 347 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I have some good printers now. And I 348 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:25,920 Speaker 1: love printing pictures. 349 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. 350 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 1: No, it's glossy paper or someemi glossy paper. 351 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:31,640 Speaker 3: Yeah. Fun. Totally. 352 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 1: You can hang those on your wall, you know, just totally. 353 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 2: I you know, I had incredible refrigerator. When I see 354 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:40,119 Speaker 2: a picture of the girls or something that I really like. 355 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 2: Just print it up and stick it on the refrigerator. 356 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 3: It's great. 357 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: Is it harder to photograph a famous person, a well 358 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,679 Speaker 1: known person, or a unknown person? 359 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 3: They all come with the different ways to approach. 360 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:06,679 Speaker 1: Well, you've got John Lennon to undress and curl up. 361 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 2: Come on, John Lennon addressed, and there he. 362 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:16,479 Speaker 1: Is, just lying on his side, nuzzled into his lovely wife, 363 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 1: Yoko Ono, and which became one of the most incredibly 364 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:23,399 Speaker 1: famous pictures ever ever ever taken. 365 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 2: Well, you know, at the time, you know the story 366 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 2: about that photograph where he was killed the same day 367 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 2: the photograph was taken, and I was sent by Rolling Stone, 368 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:37,120 Speaker 2: and Rolling Stone said to me, we don't want to 369 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 2: put John and Yoko on the cover. 370 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 3: We just want to put John on the cover. 371 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 2: So I knew, I knew John, and so I said 372 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:46,879 Speaker 2: to John, and he really wanted to put yoga on 373 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:47,160 Speaker 2: the cover. 374 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 3: I said, okay, well, we're going to have to do 375 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 3: something really weird, really good, you know. 376 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 2: And we just did a few frames and you know, 377 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 2: we looked at a polaroid and he loved it and 378 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 2: he said, this is our this is us. 379 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 1: And then he gets shot down in his right in 380 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 1: the front door of the Dakota. That was a very 381 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,239 Speaker 1: sad day for so many of us, poor Yoko, and 382 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 1: I mean the whole thing that was a crazy day. 383 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 3: Again was interesting. 384 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 2: And now me getting older and us getting older and us, 385 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 2: you know, and just thinking like Diane Keaton, you know, 386 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 2: dying at seventy nine, which that's not a bad life 387 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:25,359 Speaker 2: as a good life, but it's not so old. 388 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 3: But it's not. It doesn't not. I feel the same way. 389 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 3: I feel it's not. 390 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: So because we're all talking about longevity. Yeah, we're all 391 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 1: talking about healthy aging. We are all talking about what 392 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:39,479 Speaker 1: can we do to prolong our good lives? What are 393 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:41,399 Speaker 1: you doing it? You prolong your life? You look great 394 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:43,120 Speaker 1: by the way. 395 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:44,199 Speaker 3: I refuse to be lazy. 396 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:46,159 Speaker 2: I will just get up and go up the stairs 397 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:47,880 Speaker 2: and go get something and bring it back down. 398 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 3: I just keep moving. 399 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 1: You worked out all Jamike. You go to the gym, 400 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 1: I know, I don't. 401 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 3: I can't stand gyms. 402 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 1: Oh no, yeah, no. I love the outside so well. 403 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 2: I think that's what Upstate is for for me, is 404 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 2: to get out and walk and we have a pond 405 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 2: and I I literally we just now it's like really cold, 406 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 2: but I swim in it. You know, you came to 407 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 2: swim house up in Maine. Do you remember, Oh yeah, no, 408 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 2: we took care. Yes, you took Roseanne. 409 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 1: She remembers that I had that giant, giant guest book 410 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 1: that I especially made for the magazine. This is a 411 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:25,439 Speaker 1: book that's like four feet by three feet and on 412 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: beautiful and beautiful paper. And Annie Leebu, it's put her 413 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 1: foot on inkpads. And you printed your foot in my book. 414 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 3: Well, it's easier than having to write something, Yeah. 415 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,199 Speaker 1: It's your foot, you're and what size foot do you have? 416 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:40,120 Speaker 1: Like a size ten? 417 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 3: No, it's twelve. 418 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 1: Oh, a size twelve blue foot in my guest book, 419 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 1: which I am only. 420 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 3: One foot, just one too. 421 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:51,440 Speaker 1: You just did one foot. Interesting, I have to come 422 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 1: back and I'm going, yes, you have to come back 423 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 1: and do the other foot. And I'm going to frame 424 00:20:55,840 --> 00:21:00,080 Speaker 1: it because I have that book in a very prominent. 425 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 3: Place, such a great place. And I love Maine. 426 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:05,359 Speaker 1: Oh I do too, God, I love that place so much. 427 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 1: It is a it's a RESTful place. It's incredible, and 428 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 1: it's a and it's a good place to hike and 429 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 1: to think and to do you know stuff? So you 430 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 1: have to come back to Maine. It was so funny. 431 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 1: So what's what is your preference? Is it the studio 432 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: or is it out in the field. 433 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 3: I don't even have a place to shoot. 434 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 2: I used to have the most incredible which I you 435 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 2: know that those buildings on twenties. 436 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 3: I've been into incredible studios. 437 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: Oh yeah. 438 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 2: And part of letting that all go was I wanted 439 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 2: to force myself to be on location. 440 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,400 Speaker 1: But that was that was your really greatest studio. 441 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 3: It was great, but I had made the decision when 442 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:40,360 Speaker 3: I sold it. 443 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 2: I was moving downtown into some houses which I loved, 444 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:44,719 Speaker 2: and I thought it was gonna be in forever. 445 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 3: But then, I mean, Upstate has really become home now. 446 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 3: It's so interesting. 447 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 1: I come and see it sometimes. 448 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 3: Oh I would love for you too, Are you really? 449 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 3: I really would like you swim across the pond? Yeah? 450 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 1: Whatever, not in the winter. I'm not going to swim. 451 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 1: You connect with your subject, you really do. I mean 452 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 1: you can see it in their faces, you can see 453 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,479 Speaker 1: it in their expressions. What makes you so good at that? 454 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 3: I don't know what I'm doing, quite honestly. 455 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 2: When I first started this work, the photograph is the 456 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:14,400 Speaker 2: most important. 457 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 3: Thing to me. Left the people of the dust. 458 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 2: You know, it didn't matter, it was like But I 459 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 2: think as you get older, I really want to take 460 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 2: a photograph that they like as well. I don't have 461 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 2: any other agenda. I want the subject to like themselves 462 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 2: and see themselves in the photograph, and that interests me. 463 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 3: You know a great deal. 464 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 1: Who photographs you? What's your favorite picture of you? 465 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 3: Maplethorpe took a good picture, he did. 466 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: Well. 467 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 3: Do you remember Dwayne Michaels. 468 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 1: Oh, yes, I know Dwayne Michaels. 469 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 2: And his work is very surreal and you see through 470 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 2: the bodies and things like that. 471 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:50,399 Speaker 1: He took some pictures of me fashion pictures for Mademoiselle magazine. 472 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 2: We've known each other a long time, you know, because 473 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 2: do you remember when we met out out on Long 474 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:59,399 Speaker 2: Island in the Hamptons. You were nobody yet, you know, 475 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 2: and if everyone knew you were going somewhere. 476 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 3: Oh they did, they did, and you knew you were 477 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 3: going somewhere. 478 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 1: Those early days in East Tampton when I first bought 479 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 1: my house out there. I loved that. 480 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 3: I loved you. You haven't changed, You really haven't changed. 481 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 3: You are that person. 482 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 1: I thank you, thank you. I want to be I 483 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:18,439 Speaker 1: want to be the original. 484 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:19,720 Speaker 3: There you are. 485 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:22,920 Speaker 2: We were talking about Dwayne Michaels and who photographed me, 486 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 2: because he came to photographing at twenty sixth Street Studio 487 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 2: and he ran around and he took all these pictures 488 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:33,479 Speaker 2: and then he left and then he called me up 489 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 2: and he said, Annie, I forgot to put film in 490 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 2: the camera. 491 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 3: Oh, come on, I'm not kidding. And it was like 492 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 3: I just laughed so hard. 493 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:43,880 Speaker 1: You ever forget to do that? 494 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 3: No, No, that that never happened. What did happen? 495 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,679 Speaker 2: I was once photographing Barbara Streisand in the seventies, and 496 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:54,400 Speaker 2: I had a motor drive camera, and you know, she 497 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 2: didn't have much time, and I ran around the house 498 00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 2: and took all these pictures and I kept thinking, this 499 00:23:58,760 --> 00:23:59,439 Speaker 2: is really strange. 500 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 3: This seems like the endless role, you know. 501 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 2: But what happened was is this brockets got torn in 502 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 2: the motor drive, which you know, you should never use 503 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 2: a motor drive camera. You've got no pictures, And so 504 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 2: I had some, but I didn't, you know, I was 505 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:15,440 Speaker 2: like too embarrassed to ever tell her. 506 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 3: You can tell if that there's film in a camera. 507 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: Oh, it's something you can feel it. I had to 508 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 1: fire a couple of photographers working on my magazine that 509 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: made technical errors like that, which were so bad, and 510 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 1: it said, come back in five years when you learn 511 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:31,679 Speaker 1: how to use a camera. I would say that. And 512 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 1: now some of them are fantastic photographers doing really good work. 513 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 1: And they remember, they remember when I told them to 514 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 1: go away. You have to work with so many image makers. Oh, yes, 515 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:43,880 Speaker 1: you know, but I love that. 516 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 3: I have learned, but you're directing. You pretty learned telling a. 517 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:52,679 Speaker 1: Lot about photography, working with great photographers. But it's all 518 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: about light. But you're it is light. It is about 519 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 1: especially for. 520 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 3: Food, I mean, and any actually anything is about light. 521 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:00,639 Speaker 2: Well, faces to you were so funny because when I 522 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:04,160 Speaker 2: was coming to your house this time, you said, Okay, 523 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 2: what time of day do you want and which light 524 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 2: do you want? Like you know, and I never could 525 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 2: find the light in the house. 526 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 3: And light is so important to me. 527 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 2: It really teaches me exactly what you know, I'm going 528 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 2: to work with the light, whatever it is. 529 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 3: And I couldn't find the light that day. Maybe that 530 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:21,400 Speaker 3: was the problem. 531 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 1: Maybe it was just a dark day. It was a 532 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: dark day. 533 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, because I was forcing it to happen. It was 534 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 4: it was the middle of the day, and that the 535 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 4: room where you is a western facing room, and it 536 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 4: would have had much more light later on. 537 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 3: It was stupid on my part. You should fire me. 538 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 1: I'm not. I'm never going to fire any. 539 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,160 Speaker 3: They can fire me. I shouldn't be fired. I shouldn't 540 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 3: put put that. How would you like to be remembered? Answer? 541 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:51,920 Speaker 1: As a documentarian, No, No. 542 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 3: As a portraitist, well, I'm really proud of the work. 543 00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:58,919 Speaker 3: There's no two ways. There's no two ways about that. 544 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 2: I can actually stand out side of the work and 545 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,240 Speaker 2: look at it and go, I just can't believe this 546 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 2: that you see that youth, that kind of insanity of 547 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,880 Speaker 2: just you know, working, you know, shooting every single. 548 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:14,159 Speaker 1: Day, and we're capturing imagery that nobody else would have 549 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 1: ever captured. 550 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:20,880 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, you know, photography has just an incredible 551 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 2: lineage of great photographers to sort of and be inspired by, 552 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 2: and I feel. 553 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 3: Like I sort of absorbed them all. I mean like 554 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,120 Speaker 3: I ate them up. They were just like so powerful. 555 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 1: To the depth of your photography is quite amazing. I 556 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 1: mean there's so much in all ages. I mean, you 557 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 1: have been photographing, what you said, fifty years publishing publishing photographs. 558 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 1: That's a long time in a long career, but it's 559 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:53,919 Speaker 1: kind of almost identifiable, which is so incredibly fabulous. I 560 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: mean I've worked with like Avid On, I mean, oh 561 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: my god, well he was and it was very total 562 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,360 Speaker 1: genius and it was more expected it was so it 563 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:08,399 Speaker 1: was so well lit. It's almost all studio, you know, 564 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:09,479 Speaker 1: and nobody was brilliant. 565 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 2: I mean I walked into that studio, you know, after 566 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,639 Speaker 2: he died, he could light with one light in it, 567 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,639 Speaker 2: the way he structured the walls and how they be, 568 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 2: and he's. 569 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:24,439 Speaker 1: Going to put you down in a little hole in 570 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: the ground in the studio. Do you know that? I 571 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,680 Speaker 1: had to go downstairs into a little square and look 572 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 1: up at him. 573 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 3: Seriously. 574 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was so interesting. I paid attention to all 575 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 1: of that and the resulting pictures. And I was not 576 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 1: a top model. I was like a medium model. But 577 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,680 Speaker 1: it was so interesting to watch all these guys and 578 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 1: how they. 579 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 3: Worked and what do you think of photographers? 580 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:47,920 Speaker 2: Do why? 581 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,480 Speaker 1: I mean, for I have had a very nice relationship 582 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,680 Speaker 1: with almost every single photographer I've ever worked with, both 583 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:59,639 Speaker 1: professionally as an editor, and also as a model. I 584 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:04,400 Speaker 1: enjoyed being photographed, and I also enjoy watching somebody photograph 585 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 1: because I like to see. 586 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 3: I think that is true. 587 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 2: I think, you know, I think when we have worked, 588 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,880 Speaker 2: I mean it's yeah, I really enjoy it. I mean 589 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 2: like you sort of you sort of give yourself over 590 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 2: to the process. I think that's really interesting. I like 591 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 2: a lot of people are still holding on to to themselves. 592 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: But but it's so much fun to watch. And you're 593 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 1: you are busy when you're photographing. I you know, the 594 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 1: last photo shoot, you were busy thinking, thinking, thinking, who 595 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 1: does the retouching on your pictures? 596 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 2: I have this extraordinary Actually, there's two people in my studio. 597 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 2: One is very kind of old fashioned retoucher, but he'll 598 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 2: take too much away from from a photograph. The other 599 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 2: one is really an artist and I love working with them. 600 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 2: And he's shown me because I don't really know how 601 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 2: to use the computer, and I'll sit behind him with 602 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 2: a little stick and kind of hit him on the 603 00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 2: back of his endpoint and direct. It's interesting to vote. Yeah, 604 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 2: do you have the final picture? You make the final picture. 605 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 2: I make the final picture, and then you know, we 606 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 2: have a cover on Vogue this December, and it's definitely 607 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 2: you know, composited, and you'll see your. 608 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 1: Vanity Fair covers, those multiple people covers, which I always 609 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 1: loved so much because you had what was the greatest 610 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: number of people you ever had in one photograph. 611 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 2: Oh definitely. I would kind of fight that all the time. 612 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 2: I wanted to go back to single, single people or whatever. 613 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:34,479 Speaker 2: But basically, you know, you know who taught me how 614 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 2: to shoot like those large groups is David Hockney. When 615 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 2: you look at his work and you saw that like 616 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 2: it was done in pieces, I started to shoot it 617 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 2: in pieces. And that's how how we talked. 618 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 1: Did you see the thing that he did of the 619 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 1: Grand Canyon, that giant picture that was in the lou 620 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 1: in Paris, I mean I've seen it, It's made it 621 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: six hundred different photographs. 622 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 2: He's incredible and he made me. He brought me down down. 623 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 2: I mean talking about people inspired me. It got me 624 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 2: down to my knees when I first saw all that 625 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 2: collage work and I realized that's how the I sees 626 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 2: that is, you know, and you want to throw away 627 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 2: the camera because the camera was keeping you within the 628 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 2: rectangle or the square or whatever format. You were using, 629 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 2: and I was taught to use the rectangle. You know, 630 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 2: Cardi bra Zan or Robert Frank they composed within that rectangle. 631 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 3: They you know, you that's how you shot. 632 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 2: And then Hockney said throw it away. You know, it's 633 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 2: like it's and and he really you know, to this day, 634 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 2: you know, if I can't fit something in the rectangle, 635 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 2: I'll just move left and right and and put it together. 636 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: And put it together. 637 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 3: It's really not a problem. 638 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 1: I love that. And I think with good editing now 639 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 1: you can do that too. 640 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 3: Oh. 641 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And there's no reason why not. It's not it's 642 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 2: not real life. I'm not doing journalism. No reason why doing. 643 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 1: That's a you can't pat you are painting with a 644 00:30:57,600 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 1: picture with pictures. 645 00:30:59,200 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 3: Totally. 646 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is incredible. So do you have favorite pictures 647 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 1: that you've taken? I mean, can you have three favorite 648 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 1: pictures that we could think about? 649 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 2: Okay, it's an old, old story. It's in the first 650 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 2: Women's Book. I photographed my mother for the Women's Book. 651 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 2: She was nervous, she was in her she was my age, 652 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 2: you know, middle seventies. I photographed her up state, you know, 653 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 2: in open shade, and she was nervous, and she says 654 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,080 Speaker 2: she was afraid of looking old. And you know, she 655 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 2: grew up her her generation. You know that everyone was 656 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 2: supposed to smile for photographs. So I didn't trust the 657 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 2: smile completely and I wanted to show I didn't really 658 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 2: want her to smile, so but I didn't say that. 659 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 2: But so the photograph is un is probably my favorite photograph. 660 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 2: When you look at the photograph of her, it's as 661 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 2: if the camera's not there. 662 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 3: She's just looking at me. 663 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 2: There's no camera. That is another thing to obtain when 664 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 2: you take a photograph, as you don't want to feel 665 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 2: the camera. You want to just go right into what 666 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 2: the content, what's in. 667 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 1: I encourage everyone to get the two volume set of 668 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 1: Women by Annie Lebowitz. It is a beautiful book. I 669 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 1: think it's ninety nine dollars in ninety No, No, it's 670 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,959 Speaker 1: fifty dollars a book, you know. I that's an expensive 671 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,720 Speaker 1: it's beautifully printed. No, Annie, congratulations, it's a it's a 672 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 1: beautiful accomplishment. And it just what it does is just 673 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 1: extend your importance so into the far far future, because 674 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,240 Speaker 1: you have been not only a student, you've been a 675 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 1: learner and a teacher and now an icon of photography. 676 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. 677 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 3: Thank you Mark I, thank you this is It wasn't 678 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 3: so hard. 679 00:32:47,440 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 1: At it wasn't getting better. See