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Speaker 1: Rip Current is a production of iHeart Podcasts. The views

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Speaker 1: and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect thirds of the host,

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Speaker 1: producers or parent company. Listener discretion is it fines.

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Speaker 2: This is a rip Current bonus episode.

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Speaker 3: You don't need to listen to follow the rip Current storyline,

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Speaker 3: but it provides more information, context, and analysis to enhance

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Speaker 3: the main podcast.

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Speaker 2: Enjoy.

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Speaker 4: I want to start with a note about sources for

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Speaker 4: this bonus episode. Tribal Thumb was one of a number

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Speaker 4: of very small revolutionary groups in northern California in the

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Speaker 4: nineteen seventies. For the most part, they flew under the radar.

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Speaker 4: Because of this, there are not a lot of newspaper

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Speaker 4: or other media stories about Tribal Thumb or its leader,

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Speaker 4: Earl Satcher. There are some, though, chief among these is

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Speaker 4: a four part series.

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Speaker 2: Written by A.

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Speaker 4: Mili Cabral and Bill Wallace.

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Speaker 2: For the Berkeley Barb.

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Speaker 4: I was unable to track down either of the authors.

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Speaker 4: In that series, they raised the suspicion that Earl Satcher,

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Speaker 4: either knowingly or unknowingly, was aiding in co intel prose

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Speaker 4: campaign to disrupt revolutionary groups across the US and the

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Speaker 4: radical movement in general. I'll talk about those suspicions when

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Speaker 4: they come.

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Speaker 2: Up in the story.

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Speaker 4: One more note, I think, because some of these articles

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Speaker 4: were written well after the events they cover, there are

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Speaker 4: some contradictions and dates and even years in which things happened.

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Speaker 4: I've tried to work out the timeline from the totality

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Speaker 4: of the information available. Tribal Thumb was all but unknown

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Speaker 4: outside of revolutionary circles until they became the focus of

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Speaker 4: the investigation into the murder of Popeye Jackson. This incident

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Speaker 4: is covered in episodes nine to ten of Rip Current.

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Speaker 4: This murder began a period of activity that would end

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Speaker 4: roughly eighteen months later with Earl Satcher's death during a

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Speaker 4: shootout on a San Francisco street. Earl Satcher was born

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Speaker 4: in nineteen forty two. He apparently lived mostly in Long Beach, California,

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Speaker 4: where he began to accumulate a criminal record for auto

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Speaker 4: theft and armed robbery beginning when he was eighteen. By

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Speaker 4: the mid nineteen sixties, he'd become active in the Long

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Speaker 4: Beach Black Panthers and eventually rose to the rank of captain.

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Speaker 4: In nineteen sixty eight, Satcher was arrested for assaulting his

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Speaker 4: sister's boyfriend with a pistol. He was found guilty of

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Speaker 4: illegally possessing a firearm and spent three months in the

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Speaker 4: county jail before being released in January of sixty nine.

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Speaker 4: By October, according to an FBI letter, he was being

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Speaker 4: watched by law enforcement. Also in sixty nine, Sacher met

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Speaker 4: and joined forces with a white man named Benny Sargus. Sargus,

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Speaker 4: who was in his forties, was the physical opposite of

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Speaker 4: the powerful, imposing Satcher. Sargus was short and stocky, had

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Speaker 4: greasy hair and a scraggly beard and mustache. He claimed

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Speaker 4: to have been born into the mafia. The men hit

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Speaker 4: it off. They both liked guns, neither had qualms with

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Speaker 4: using violence. Satcher was back in prison in nineteen seventy

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Speaker 4: for parole violations. During this stint, he asserted himself as

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Speaker 4: a black militant leader within a prison group called the

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Speaker 4: Alternative Group. He also corresponded with staff members of a

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Speaker 4: radical magazine called Vocations for Social Change. On March fifth,

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Speaker 4: nineteen seventy one, the Los Angeles Free Press published a

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Speaker 4: number of letters from inmates at San Quentin, including two

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Speaker 4: from Earl Satcher. Before and after a confrontation with a

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Speaker 4: white supremacist inmate that had been set up by guards

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Speaker 4: with the apparent intention of killing Sacher. Today, the fourteenth

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Speaker 4: of September, and tomorrow the fifteenth, I will be released

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Speaker 4: into the exercise tier with an inmate who just three

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Speaker 4: days ago was hurling human feces and urine at me

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Speaker 4: and other brothers here on max Row. I am to

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Speaker 4: proceed to the tier with this said prisoner, even though

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Speaker 4: I'm with the knowledge that officials have armed the said

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Speaker 4: inmate in an effort to perpetrate my death. I have

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Speaker 4: faith in my ability to defend myself, and I shall

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Speaker 4: do so fully. Four days later, he wrote another letter,

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Speaker 4: a summation of what happened on the exercise tier. At

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Speaker 4: approximately eight fifteen, Officer Horton, the day Officer on max Row,

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Speaker 4: approached my cell, unlocked it and ordered me to prepare

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Speaker 4: to come onto the tier to work as a porter

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Speaker 4: with inmate A, a racist Neo American Nazi. In an

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Speaker 4: attempt to integrate max Row, Officer Horton opened both cell doors,

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Speaker 4: and after a brief wait, Inmate A left his cell.

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Speaker 4: Inmate A then proceeded up the tier towards me at

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Speaker 4: a distance of about three feet, he stopped and pulled

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Speaker 4: from his pocket a makeshift knife. At this display, I

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Speaker 4: settled into a Kung fu defensive stance and waited for

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Speaker 4: the said inmate to launch his attack. Inmate A was

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Speaker 4: apparently thrown off by this posture and tried to bait

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Speaker 4: Sacher with a shower of dehumanizing names common to the

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Speaker 4: racist mentality. Sacher stayed where he was, as in his

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Speaker 4: telling eight to ten officials watch from behind a locked gate.

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Speaker 4: According to Sacher's letter, this standoff lasted for about ten

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Speaker 4: minutes before officials realized that inmate A had lost his

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Speaker 4: enthusiasm for the fight and moved in.

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Speaker 2: Sacher was parolled.

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Speaker 4: In May of nineteen seventy two. The first public announcement

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Speaker 4: using the Tribal Thumb was in a notice for a

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Speaker 4: workshop to be held on August eighth, nineteen seventy three,

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Speaker 4: in Long Beach.

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Speaker 2: The event was.

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Speaker 4: Sponsored by the Tribal Thumb Community and the Peace and

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Speaker 4: Freedom Party, which was a communist political party. The announcement read,

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Speaker 4: in part, we are the Tribal Thumb community and about

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Speaker 4: creating progressive change in this society. Work, struggle and knowledge

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Speaker 4: together with living in unity is what we know to

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Speaker 4: be the foundation leading to a socio political victory over oppression. Clearly,

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Speaker 4: because governments and societies are made up of people, people

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Speaker 4: are made up of biological and social character structures, change

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Speaker 4: the character structure of people, and people will in turn

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Speaker 4: change the structure of societies and governments. A nineteen seventy

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Speaker 4: two parole report on Satcher mentions finding a full garden

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Speaker 4: of nine millimeters rounds and another garden with eight missing

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Speaker 4: shells in Sacher's car. It states that the holster and

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Speaker 4: revolutionary literature were found in his apartment. According to the

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Speaker 4: Berkeley barb despite the parole violations involving firearms, the FBI

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Speaker 4: asked the San Bernardino Sheriff's office not to use the

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Speaker 4: evidence to revoke Sacher's parole. They said they were investigating

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Speaker 4: Satcher and planned to charge him, but he was not

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Speaker 4: arrested or charged. The bar points to this as an

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Speaker 4: initial sign that he may have been working with the

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Speaker 4: FBI in some capacity. Either that or he could be

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Speaker 4: manipulated to the point where he might as well be

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Speaker 4: working for the FBI. In late nineteen seventy three, Satcher

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Speaker 4: and Sargeist moved Tribal thumbed north to the Bay Area.

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Speaker 4: There were rumors about Satcher's activities during nineteen seventy three,

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Speaker 4: that he was involved in running guns from Canada to

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Speaker 4: the US, that he formed links to Vince Ramos group

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Speaker 4: based in Palo Alto. In these early days up north,

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Speaker 4: Tribal Thumb acquired guns and focused on revolutionary rhetoric and

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Speaker 4: training for guerrilla warfare. One of the only contemporaneous insider

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Speaker 4: accounts of life in Tribal Thumb comes from a woman

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Speaker 4: named Hetty Sarney, the daughter of Romanian survivors of the Holocaust.

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Speaker 4: Her story came to light after she was arrested for

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Speaker 4: her part in a disastrous nineteen seventy three bank robbery.

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Speaker 4: She lived alone on Channing Street in Berkeley. The street was,

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Speaker 4: in her words, like a self contained community, like a

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Speaker 4: commune in many ways. She attended Grove Street College, a

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Speaker 4: radical school attended by, among others, future SLA members Joe

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Speaker 4: Ramiro and Patricia Missmoon Sultizic. Sarny came to know Saltiesk

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Speaker 4: along with Camilla Hall, another soon to be SLA member,

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Speaker 4: so she was already a member of one part of

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Speaker 4: the radical community. She met Earl Satcher at a bar

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Speaker 4: on October nineteenth, nineteen seventy three. Satcher invited her to

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Speaker 4: visit the Tribal Thumb home, which was a camper parked

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Speaker 4: in the driveway of a house they hoped to eventually buy.

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Speaker 4: Sarny was painting her apartment at the time, and Sacher

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Speaker 4: offered to help. While they worked, Sacher talked about the

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Speaker 4: eccentric doctor and psychoanalyst Wilhelm Reich more on him later.

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Speaker 4: By October twenty third, just four days after Sacher met

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Speaker 4: Hetty Sarney, Tribal Thumb members had moved into her apartment

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Speaker 4: and she was essentially a prisoner. They worked on indoctrinating

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Speaker 4: her into their revolutionary ideology. Sarny had grown up in

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Speaker 4: communists Romania, though, and was not inclined towards the political

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Speaker 4: side of revolutionary groups. Her ambition was to go to

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Speaker 4: medical school and open medical clinic in Mexico and Guatemala.

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Speaker 4: She became increasingly concerned the next day. According to her

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Speaker 4: deposition given for an appeal to her bank robbery conviction,

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Speaker 4: she stated then he said that they were going to

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Speaker 4: rob a bank in order to buy a house for

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Speaker 4: their commune.

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Speaker 2: In Berkeley.

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Speaker 4: I was stunned and didn't know what to say. The

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Speaker 4: next day was Tuesday, and I got up to go

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Speaker 4: to school. Earl stopped me. He said that school was

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Speaker 4: a waste of time and that I would learn what

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Speaker 4: I needed to know from them. I spent the whole

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Speaker 4: day walking around in a daze. They never left me

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Speaker 4: alone for a minute.

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Speaker 2: I felt like I was in prison.

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Speaker 4: Satcher was upset with Sarny's resistance to joining their revolutionary cause.

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Speaker 4: He called her a reactionary and began to beat her.

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Speaker 4: He called a tribal Thumb member named Joe Monico and

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Speaker 4: told him to come over and bring a gun. The

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Speaker 4: two men talked about killing Sarny, who knew too much.

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Speaker 4: They considered stabbing her to death and dumping her on

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Speaker 4: the street. There was a spade of murders committed by

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Speaker 4: someone known as the machete Man at the time, and

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Speaker 4: they figured her death would be added to his tally.

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Speaker 4: Then they thought she should write a suicide note, which

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Speaker 4: she refused to do.

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Speaker 2: They put a knife to.

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Speaker 4: Her throat, but she still refused. Then they wrapped her

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Speaker 4: in a blanket and set the blanket on fire. Again

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Speaker 4: from her deposition I was too frightened to move or

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Speaker 4: say a word. But they must have thought I was

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Speaker 4: very brave, because they put the fire out. A Tribal

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Speaker 4: Thumb member named Janet Hashemi embraced her and called her

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Speaker 4: a comrade. Sacher said he would stay with her, but

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Speaker 4: that at the end of the month, if she wanted

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Speaker 4: to leave, she could. Sarny from her deposition. On Friday,

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Speaker 4: November ninth, we robbed the Bank of America. The Tribal

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Speaker 4: Thumb considered themselves a well drilled guerrilla unit. The bank

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Speaker 4: robbery should have put an end to that. It was

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Speaker 4: a fiasco. The robbery took place at the Bank of

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Speaker 4: America in Berkeley, near the University of California campus. Several

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Speaker 4: members of Tribal Thumb entered the bank armed. Sarny was

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Speaker 4: with them unarmed. Her job was to get behind the

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Speaker 4: bank counter and fill bags with cash. Satra was driving

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Speaker 4: a getaway van. The robbers emerged from the bank with

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Speaker 4: sixteen thousand dollars worth of bills stuffed into bags, only

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Speaker 4: to find that the van was not there. They dispersed,

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Speaker 4: fleeing the scene and eventually finding the van blocks away

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Speaker 4: from the bank.

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Speaker 2: From Sarney's deposition.

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Speaker 4: After leaving the bank, I went back to the van

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Speaker 4: undressed and got under the covers. A few minutes later,

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Speaker 4: the police entered the van and arrested us. In all,

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Speaker 4: six Tribal Thumb members were rested, including Sacher. This was

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Speaker 4: the same day that the SLA sent its communica about

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Speaker 4: the murder of Oakland Schools Superintendent Marcus Foster. That moment,

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Speaker 4: when Earl Satcher, Hetty Sarney, and four others were in

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Speaker 4: jail in the wake of their failed bank robbery, became

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Speaker 4: very important in Tribal Thumb's trajectory because Benny Sargus contacted

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Speaker 4: the United Prisoners Union or UPU, the organization run by

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Speaker 4: Popeye Jackson, to see about getting help to fund Sacher's defense.

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Speaker 4: The funding didn't come through, but this was the critical

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Speaker 4: beginning of Tribal Thumb's relationship with the UPU. Sacher's defense

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Speaker 4: didn't require funding because of what may have been ludicrous

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Speaker 4: in competence by the FBI or further indication of Sacher

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Speaker 4: being an FBI asset. To put it succinctly, the FBI

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Speaker 4: lost most of the evidence before trial, including the bank,

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Speaker 4: while the other five were sentenced to some jail time. Satcher,

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Speaker 4: the leader, walked free soon after. In nineteen seventy four,

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Speaker 4: Tribal Thumb members began to attend UPU meetings, events and

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Speaker 4: Saturday study sessions. Among those attending were Benny Sargus and

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Speaker 4: a small time burglar and drug offender named Richard London

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Speaker 4: who went by Ricardo London. Tribal Thumb enjoyed good relations

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Speaker 4: with UPU during the People in Need.

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Speaker 2: Effort or PIN.

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Speaker 4: Remember, this was Randolph Hurst's attempt to respond to the

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Speaker 4: Symbionese Liberation Army's demands to feed the poor of California

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Speaker 4: as a requirement for Patty Hurst's release. It was around

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Speaker 4: this time that Sarah Jane Moore also became involved in

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Speaker 4: PIN and UPU. After People in Need ended, tension developed

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Speaker 4: between UPU and Tribal Thumb members. D Sargists had collected

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Speaker 4: money at some UPU benefits and was suspected of keeping

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Speaker 4: some of the proceeds. Popeye Jackson confronted Sargist about this

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Speaker 4: and things became heated. After that, Tribal Thumb no longer

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Speaker 4: associated with UPO. Sarah Jane Moore left it around the

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Speaker 4: same time and began associating to an unknown degree with

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Speaker 4: Tribal Thumb. Even in the context of radical and revolutionary groups,

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Speaker 4: Tribal Thumb had some strange beliefs and tenets. First among

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Speaker 4: them was their adherence to the teachings of Austrian doctor

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Speaker 4: and psychoanalyst Wilhelm Reich. SATR focused primarily on Reich's ideas

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Speaker 4: around orgone energy. Orgone was a word coined by Reich

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Speaker 4: that was a combination of organism and orgasm. He theorized

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Speaker 4: that orgone was an omnipresent and essential substance, and that

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Speaker 4: a lack of organ in the body could cause problems

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Speaker 4: ranging from neuroses to cancer. Sex was apparently the remedy

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Speaker 4: for this, and was encouraged and at times forced among

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Speaker 4: Tribal Thumb members. Monogamy was bourgeois. Tribal Thumb owned a

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Speaker 4: property called the Honeydew Ranch north of San Francisco in

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Speaker 4: Mendocino County, where they raised Arabian horses. Here, the activities

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Speaker 4: veered between the colt like and revolutionary. Like many radical groups,

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Speaker 4: Tribal Thumb performed a type of brutal group therapy that

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Speaker 4: could include browbeating, interrogation, isolation, sleep, deprivation, violence, and other

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Speaker 4: techniques often used by colts to instill competence in revolutionary action.

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Speaker 4: A Tribal Thumb member named Walter Hunsacker trained the group

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Speaker 4: in the use of firearms and allegedly arranged for the

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Speaker 4: purchase of guns as well. He taught techniques to make

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Speaker 4: guns untraceable. Huntsacker pushed the group towards action. He talked

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Speaker 4: about revolutionary subjects, and in January of nineteen seventy five,

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Speaker 4: was present when Benny Sargis told Ricardo London that Popeye

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Speaker 4: Jackson was a snitch and that they had to lean

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Speaker 4: on him. But Huntsacker was not a true believer. He

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Speaker 4: was an infiltrator working for the FBI, a provocateur, and

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Speaker 4: there are questions about whether he was the driving force

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Speaker 4: behind violent actions that would have fallen under the aims

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Speaker 4: of the FBI's co intel pro initiative, actions such as

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Speaker 4: the murder of Popeye Jackson. Sacher's strange political and philosophical

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Speaker 4: teachings alienated some followers, and Tribal Thumb evolved into a

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Speaker 4: small group dedicated to Sacher. The consequences for leaving the

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Speaker 4: group or not adhering to Sacher's beliefs were in Benny

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Speaker 4: Sargus's weird mafia speak to take their air. Here's an

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Speaker 4: example of Satri's bizarre activities. He brought several Tribal Thumb

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Speaker 4: members to an isolated house in Pacific Grove, a town

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Speaker 4: on the Monterey Peninsula south of San Francisco. The house

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Speaker 4: was owned by a single woman, and SATR thought it

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Speaker 4: could serve as a headquarters. Sacher apparently wanted to show

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Speaker 4: her how completely he controlled his followers. To do this,

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Speaker 4: he had a child dive off a table toward a

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Speaker 4: stone floor, making no attempt to break his own fall.

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Speaker 4: Sacher grabbed him just before he landed. There's no account

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Speaker 4: of the woman's reaction, but the group left when Sacher

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Speaker 4: saw just how many people regularly visited the house. It

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Speaker 4: didn't have the privacy that he'd anticipated. We cover the

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Speaker 4: Popeye Jackson assassination in the main podcast, so I won't

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Speaker 4: go into it again here other than to mention that

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Speaker 4: the Berkeley barb found plenty of reason to believe that

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Speaker 4: the FBI was at best indifferent to Popeye's murder. They

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Speaker 4: pointed to the fact that the only witness to the

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Speaker 4: crime described two people involved in the murder, but the

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Speaker 4: investigation essentially stopped with the arrest of a single person,

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Speaker 4: Ricardo London. Allegedly, thirty eight caliber bullets were found at

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Speaker 4: the assassination scene, in addition to the bullets from the

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Speaker 4: nine millimeter handgun used by Ricardo London. This was never explained,

295
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Speaker 4: and despite his dominant control over Tribal Thumb, Sacher was

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Speaker 4: only questioned once in association with Popeye's murder. The FBI

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Speaker 4: had not only placed Walter Huntsacker in Tribal Thumb, but

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Speaker 4: had another informant, Gary Johnson, in the group. Both were

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Speaker 4: in position to know about the plans to assassinate Popeye,

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Speaker 4: but they didn't try to stop it. Ricardo London gave

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Speaker 4: Huntsacker the nine millimeter pistol he used, minus the barrel

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Speaker 4: on July second, nineteen seventy five, less than a month

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Speaker 4: after the June seventh assassination. San Francisco police detective Frank

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Speaker 4: Falzan had found the gun's barrel on June eighth. Clearly,

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Speaker 4: the evidence that Huntsacker possessed the barrelless gun and his

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Speaker 4: knowledge from inside Tribal Thumb, could have led to an

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Speaker 4: early resolution of the investigation, but Falzon did not even

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Speaker 4: get that part of the gun until March of seventy six,

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Speaker 4: nine months later. Finally, Popeye's murder was in keeping with

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Speaker 4: the methods of co intel Pro, which had been officially

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Speaker 4: ended in nineteen seventy one, but whose tactics continued on

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Speaker 4: informally provoking. The murder of one revolutionary figure by a

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Speaker 4: separate revolutionary group was exactly the type of operation that

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Speaker 4: would have fallen under.

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Speaker 2: Co intel Pro.

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Speaker 4: This was, not, however, the only Tribal Thumb action that

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Speaker 4: appeared to the Berkeley Bar to be consistent with co

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Speaker 4: intel Pro methods. After the break, the next chapter in

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Speaker 4: the Tribal Thumb story involved moving into the food business.

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Speaker 4: This played out in two ways, one of which ended

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Speaker 4: up in disaster. The move that was not disastrous was

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Speaker 4: the takeover in August of nineteen seventy six of a

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Speaker 4: vegetarian restaurant called The Communion. The Communion was a unique place.

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Speaker 4: Conversation was forbidden, no music was played, the walls were bare.

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Speaker 4: The idea was that the food was the sole focus

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Speaker 4: of diners. Then Tribal Thumb arrived. According to the owner

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Speaker 4: at the time, he was promised lots of sex from

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Speaker 4: the women members of Tribal Thumb if he let the

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Speaker 4: group move in. He would later assert in Small Claims

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Speaker 4: Court that this abundant sex was not provided, but Tribal

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Speaker 4: Thumb had already moved in, changing the name of the

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Speaker 4: restaurant and eventually their group to the Well Springs Communion,

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Speaker 4: they made the building their headquarters. Among other changes, the

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Speaker 4: restaurant began to hold jazz concerts, including saxophone duets with Satcher,

335
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Speaker 4: who is considered a very accomplished saxophonist, and Sunny Stitt,

336
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Speaker 4: considered one of the great jazz saxophonists of his generation.

337
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Speaker 4: A restaurant review in nineteen seventy nine stead of Well

338
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Speaker 4: Springs Communion. It regards the restaurant as a service to

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Speaker 4: the community wholesome fare at bedrock cost, but it is

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Speaker 4: also a source of income for the group, whose primary

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Speaker 4: effort is to provide alternative patterns of work and life

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Speaker 4: for its members. The review is not great, emphasizing that

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Speaker 4: the food, usually curried, was generally cold. It concludes, given

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Speaker 4: hot food, I'm sure more would attend. It's not entirely

345
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Speaker 4: clear when Tribal Thumb began calling themselves the Well Springs Communion,

346
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Speaker 4: but I'll continue to refer to the group as Tribal

347
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Speaker 4: Thumb to keep things from getting confusing. The second move

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Speaker 4: they made was to infiltrate what was called the People's

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Speaker 4: Food System. This was a loose network of Bay Area

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Speaker 4: food co ops, households, and communes that banded together to

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Speaker 4: provide an alternative to the large grocery store chains. They

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Speaker 4: would pool money to purchase large amounts of organic foods

353
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Speaker 4: and then meet to divvy.

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Speaker 2: Up the supplies.

355
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Speaker 4: These meetings themselves became social and political events. The system

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Speaker 4: comprised a mix of ideologies. Among the system's members was

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Speaker 4: a Berkeley food co op called Ma Revolutions, which employed

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Speaker 4: a number of black activists, including a man named Willie Tait,

359
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Speaker 4: who was a close friend of George Jackson's and one

360
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Speaker 4: of the san Quentins six. Another system member was an

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Speaker 4: organic food distributor called the Veritable Vegetable. Two Tribal Thumb

362
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 4: members worked at the Veritable Vegetable. Benny Sargis, second only

363
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Speaker 4: to Sacher in the Tribal Thumb hierarchy, and a former

364
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Speaker 4: San quentin inmate known as Red, who may or may

365
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Speaker 4: not have been a member of the Aryan Brotherhood. It

366
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Speaker 4: was Tribal Thumb's association with the Veritable Vegetable that would

367
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Speaker 4: eventually lead.

368
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Speaker 2: To Earl Sacher's death.

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Speaker 4: There was a sense among some people, particularly those involved

370
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Speaker 4: with Ma revolutions, that Tribal Thumb was trying to take

371
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Speaker 4: over the people's food system. It does make some sense

372
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Speaker 4: from Tribal Thumb's perspective. It would provide a legitimate power

373
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Speaker 4: base for the group, having control over the distribution of

374
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Speaker 4: the communally purchased food. It would also be a place

375
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Speaker 4: where they could employ associates, especially ex cons who might

376
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 4: have trouble securing employment elsewhere, and it would supply a

377
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 4: stream of money for a group that was poor and

378
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:05,439
Speaker 4: were incompetent bank robbers. In the spring of nineteen seventy seven,

379
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:10,360
Speaker 4: suspicions arose that Sargus and Red were diverting goods from

380
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 4: the Veritable Vegetable to the Well.

381
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Speaker 2: Springs Communion restaurant. This crisis led.

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Speaker 4: To a meeting on April seventeenth with the aim of

383
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Speaker 4: discussing principles of unity for the network. The Veritable Vegetable

384
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 4: sent several observers, including Sacher. Sacher brought chaos he demanded

385
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Speaker 4: to be allowed to participate in the meeting. The chair

386
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,720
Speaker 4: refused him twice, but Sacher forced his.

387
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 2: Way into the proceedings.

388
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 4: When it was brought to a vote, the overwhelming majority

389
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Speaker 4: of workers present voted to expel the Veritable Vegetable Contingent

390
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 4: from the system meeting. An argument broke out between Sacher

391
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Speaker 4: and his group and the opposition, who had voted them out.

392
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 4: One worker, believing that Sacher and company were actually police

393
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 4: plants whose purpose was to disrupt the system's functioning, took photos.

394
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 4: Sacher confronted him, telling the photographer that he'd pay.

395
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 2: Him for the film.

396
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:11,639
Speaker 4: The man refused and was surrounded by Sacher's contingent. He

397
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 4: made a move toward the door, and a fight broke

398
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:17,159
Speaker 4: out between Tribal Thumb and the system workers at the meeting.

399
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 2: As Sacher tried.

400
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 4: To get the camera, The photographer passed the camera to

401
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 4: a female worker who tried to run away but was

402
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,959
Speaker 4: tackled by Red. Red pulled the film from the camera

403
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 4: and yelled to Earl that he had it. Upon hearing this,

404
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,679
Speaker 4: both sides stopped fighting, and the Veritable Vegetable Contingent left.

405
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 4: Four days later, on April twenty first, a vote of

406
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:46,680
Speaker 4: the People's Food System suspended Benny Sargus. The Veritable Vegetable

407
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 4: initially supported the decision, but then refused to cooperate with

408
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 4: the investigation. Five days later, on April twenty sixth, a

409
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 4: special representative body met at the People's Food System warehouse

410
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 4: one fifty five Barnevelt Street in San Francisco. The meeting

411
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 4: was to determine whether, in the wake of their refusal

412
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:11,680
Speaker 4: to cooperate with the Benny Sargents investigation, the Veritable Vegetable

413
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 4: would be expelled from the People's Food System. Earl Sacher

414
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 4: arrived uninvited with two leashed Dobermans. He wasn't allowed into

415
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 4: the meeting, but waited downstairs instead. Upstairs, the Veritable Vegetable

416
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 4: contingent tried to disrupt the proceedings, refusing to recognize the

417
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:36,879
Speaker 4: chair and generally making a formal meeting impossible. Eventually, a

418
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 4: break was called to give the Veritable Vegetable group a

419
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 4: chance to caucus and figure out their next steps.

420
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:45,159
Speaker 2: The Veritable Vegetable.

421
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 4: Group went downstairs to consult with Satcher. At this point,

422
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,880
Speaker 4: a Volkswagen Rabbit pulled up near the warehouse door. Willie

423
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 4: Tait and two other MA Revolutions workers, along with a

424
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 4: fourth person, approached the door. According to an account in

425
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 4: the Berkeley barb Satcher, seeing Tate, said what's happening, pulled

426
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 4: a gun and started shooting at Tate. Tate, unarmed, fell

427
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:16,120
Speaker 4: to the ground critically wounded. Satcher and an unidentified partner

428
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:20,400
Speaker 4: continued to fire. Shots came back at them from unknown shooters,

429
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 4: and there was briefly chaos. A witness named Frank Vlahovich

430
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 4: said that there were a couple of initial shots and

431
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 4: then they took a break, then another barrage. They were

432
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 4: just out to waste each other when the shooting stopped.

433
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 4: Tate was badly but not fatally injured. Sacher was dead.

434
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 4: His body was found between two cars. His twenty two

435
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 4: lay nearby, along with six spent shells. The unidentified partner

436
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 4: had fled with the shootout over A new kind of

437
00:28:55,040 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 4: chaos ensued. Benny Sargis attacked a system employee. Other Tribal

438
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 4: Thumb member ran upstairs to the meeting room waving a

439
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 4: gun in each hand. The outnumbered, Veritable Vegetable and Tribal

440
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 4: Thumb contingent were forced out of the building, and that

441
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 4: essentially was the end of the night and the beginning

442
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 4: of the end for the people's food system. In the

443
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 4: wake of the shootout, workers at Mob Revolutions issued a

444
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 4: statement that said, in part that Sacher and his people

445
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 4: had been known in the past to use violence and

446
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 4: intimidation against innocent people for personal and political gain. The

447
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 4: Black Guerrilla Family, who had earlier been asked to weigh

448
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 4: in on the murder of Popeye Jackson, also issued a

449
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 4: statement co signed by the Black Liberation Army, another underground

450
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 4: prison group. It began its analysis by stating that no

451
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 4: organization could use the threat of violence to force other

452
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 4: organizations to reject group decisions. It went on Earl Satcher did,

453
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 4: in fact violate these principles by threatening Willie Tait and

454
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 4: others a week before the fatal incident. Tribal Thumb did

455
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 4: in fact arrive at the meeting armed and with the

456
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 4: intention of a physical assault. It noted that Tribal Thumb

457
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 4: had threatened the lives of the people had identified as

458
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 4: being responsible for Sature's death. It then said, if you

459
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 4: think the co intel pro era has ended, look around you.

460
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 4: It concluded any attempted acts of revenge on the part

461
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 4: of Tribal Thumb for Sacher's death will be an unprincipled,

462
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 4: unpolitical act which will not be tolerated by the movement period.

463
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 4: And then the movement, in his attempt to unite around

464
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 4: a common strategy, is watching Tribal Thumb and his organizational affiliates.

465
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 4: Do you bury your vengeance and adhere to and respect

466
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 4: the principles of democratic centralism, or do you aid the

467
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 4: counterinsurgency machinery by unleashing forces which you cannot control. Willie

468
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 4: Tait recovered, but the People's Food System didn't. After the shootout,

469
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 4: law enforcement cracked down on the system. They hassled workers

470
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 4: and cited system members for health code violations. In just

471
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 4: a few months, Mob Revolutions was shuddered, the system diminished significantly.

472
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 4: Tribal Thumb two.

473
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 2: Struggled in the aftermath.

474
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 4: Benny Sargus went back to jail for parole violations. Without

475
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 4: Satcher to galvanize the group, some members drifted away.

476
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 2: From this point.

477
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 4: Tribal Thumb or Well Springs Communion only occasionally rises to

478
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 4: the notice of the media. One occasion was the story

479
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 4: of a man named Ardie Ray Baker, who had murdered

480
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 4: an elderly couple in their home when he was eighteen

481
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 4: sentenced to life in prison. He briefly escaped once and

482
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 4: then escaped the second time, remaining at.

483
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 2: Large for almost two years.

484
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 4: During this time, he and his wife were reportedly active

485
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 4: in Tribal Thumb. He was recaptured after killing a US

486
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 4: Customs officer when he was stopped at a border station

487
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 4: in northern Washington State. At Baker's trial, the prosecutor claimed

488
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 4: that Tribal Thumb supported themselves financially through burglaries and car thefts.

489
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 4: He claimed that Baker was recruited to provide weapons training

490
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 4: to members and had become a hitman for the group.

491
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 4: In October nineteen seventy nine, while Baker was being held

492
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 4: in the King County Jail in Seattle in connection with

493
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 4: the custom agent killing, Tribal Thumb provided support for yet

494
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 4: another escape. This was a bloody affair involving seven escapees

495
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 4: and no fewer than four separate shootouts. One escapee was

496
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 4: killed and three escapees and.

497
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 2: One officer wounded.

498
00:32:56,600 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 4: One of the escapees, a murderer named William desat Done,

499
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 4: gave his name as William Crest, and while the authorities

500
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 4: knew this wasn't his real name. They were unable to

501
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 4: identify him using fingerprints for several days because his hands

502
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 4: had been badly mangled by a police dog during his arrest.

503
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 4: The last major incident to be covered by the media

504
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 4: concerning Tribal Thumb, now known as Well Springs Communion, was

505
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 4: the murder of a former member named Roseanne Goston. Goston

506
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 4: and another woman had recently left the Honeydew Ranch commune,

507
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 4: and on June second, nineteen eighty had returned to collect

508
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 4: property that they considered theirs. Two women were sent to

509
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 4: the ranch to stop them. These events took place decades ago,

510
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 4: and the two women involved have established lives separate from

511
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 4: these actions. Because of this, I won't use their real names.

512
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 4: I'll call them Tracy and Brenda.

513
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 2: According to the.

514
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 4: Police filing, what followed was an ambush. Goston's companion fled

515
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 4: in and then returned with a male friend. A witness,

516
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 4: Goston's companion most likely claimed to see Tracy hold Goston

517
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,399
Speaker 4: pin to the ground and Brenda shooter in the head

518
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:15,720
Speaker 4: with a thirty two caliber automatic pistol. Later, during Brenda's trial,

519
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:18,240
Speaker 4: the presiding judge had a different view.

520
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 2: Of the event.

521
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 4: He believed that there was a struggle during which the

522
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 4: gun went off, killing Goston. This killing, in his judgment,

523
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 4: was more or less an accident. Regardless, Tracy and Brenda

524
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:35,800
Speaker 4: went underground. On June sixth, four days after the murder,

525
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 4: police conducted a raid on a two story wood framed

526
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 4: house at eleven to twenty five Fulsome Street in San Francisco.

527
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 4: They received a tip that Tracy and Brenda were there,

528
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 4: but that turned out not to be the case. They

529
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,920
Speaker 4: arrested five people at the house and released one after questioning.

530
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 4: The police described the house as a fortress. The front

531
00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 4: door had a quarter inch steel plating on the front

532
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 4: and eye iron bars on the back. They found weapons,

533
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 4: a printing press, Marxist literature, and a trapdoor in the basement.

534
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 2: That led to the city sewer system.

535
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 4: Police fired tear gas grenades into the tunnel because they

536
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 4: believed that someone might be hiding down there, but when

537
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 4: the tear gas cleared, the tunnel was empty. Tracy and

538
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 4: Brenda remained at large for about two years. Brenda was

539
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 4: arrested first in North Carolina. She'd used an alias in

540
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 4: a written request for a birth certificate in the name

541
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 4: of a girl who had died in infancy. This was

542
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 4: likely the first step in obtaining a fake ID. Tracy

543
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 4: was arrested in New Orleans while walking with her ten

544
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,360
Speaker 4: month old daughter. When she was picked up, she was

545
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 4: carrying a fake ID and a list of four armored

546
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 4: car companies along with their pickup schedule. Both women were

547
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 4: charged with first degree murder with special circumstances. Lying in wait,

548
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:00,399
Speaker 4: their charge would have brought the death penalty or life

549
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 4: in prison without the possibility of parole. They were allowed

550
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 4: to plead the voluntary manslaughter. When the county prosecutor, a

551
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 4: man named Barry Brown, determined that witnesses had lied or

552
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 4: were unwilling to give testimony that evidence had been destroyed,

553
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 4: they were each sentenced to three years in prison. In

554
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 4: a New York Times article about the case, the Well

555
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 4: Springs Communion seems a much different organization than in the

556
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 4: early days of tribal thumb. The Times article ends with

557
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 4: the following sentence describing the commune, which drew members from

558
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:38,319
Speaker 4: a variety of groups, including the Black Gorilla Family, the

559
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 4: Black Panthers, and the Charles Manson family. Barry Brown says

560
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,360
Speaker 4: there were a few who were very politically aware and

561
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 4: were true revolutionaries, but the organization was inundated with people

562
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 4: whose motives were not politically directed. I asked Rick Riley,

563
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:58,919
Speaker 4: who was a former member of Tribal Thumb, to tell

564
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 4: me what he wanted people to know about the group

565
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 4: and the people in it.

566
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 2: This is what he said.

567
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,399
Speaker 3: These people were intelligent people. There were not a bunch

568
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 3: of dummies. They were intelligent. Most of the women that

569
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:15,800
Speaker 3: were involved came from good families. Even the guys pretty

570
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 3: much came from decent, good American families. But they wanted change.

571
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 3: They believe a change was necessary. And the people who

572
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,719
Speaker 3: manipulated that got in at the top and manipulated their

573
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:33,360
Speaker 3: desire for change, which is what leaders do. We manipulate.

574
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 3: They were intelligent, good people, they just got used. And

575
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 3: those who of us who believed that we could make

576
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 3: a change, we couldn't. In the end, we realized all

577
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,280
Speaker 3: we could do is cause anarchy, and out of anarchy

578
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 3: gained power because we knew that it was what the

579
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 3: elite did. Out of chaos is power. So I liked

580
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,240
Speaker 3: it role, I really did. He could be deadly, yes,

581
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 3: but he could be kind to you know. He was

582
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:08,000
Speaker 3: just very charismatic man. I don't follow just anybody, you know.

583
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 3: I mean, he had my loyalty right from the start.

584
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 3: I loved him as a brother, and he was a

585
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 3: good man. He actually believed in what he was doing.

586
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 2: He really did.

587
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:20,839
Speaker 3: He believed that he could cause a change. And what

588
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:24,280
Speaker 3: we realized was that maybe we can't change the world,

589
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,799
Speaker 3: but we could cause a change for hours. And what

590
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 3: ours was is what consisted of our group. You know,

591
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 3: whatever our group is, we could make it better for us,

592
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 3: and we could be ready for what was coming. We

593
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 3: could train, we could be ready for the war that

594
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 3: was coming, you know, the civil war that was going

595
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:45,759
Speaker 3: to be coming eventually in America that we thought was

596
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 3: going to be coming.

597
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 2: The revolution. He believed it, He actually did. He believed

598
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:52,280
Speaker 2: in what he.

599
00:38:52,160 --> 00:39:00,839
Speaker 3: Was doing with tribal thumb and wellspring communion lasting is

600
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:04,360
Speaker 3: us those of us who went through that, Where was

601
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 3: lasting of it? Wellspring communion is over? Did we accomplish anything?

602
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 3: I don't regret my pard in any of it, other

603
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 3: than that Roseanne would end up being killed. Other than that,

604
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 3: because Roseanne was my friend. You know, nothing lasting out

605
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:24,840
Speaker 3: of that came out of that other than us us,

606
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 3: those of us who survived it.

607
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 4: Thank you to Rick sundown Riley, author of Thief on

608
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 4: the Cross, I'm Toby Ball. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,

609
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 4: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts.

610
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 2: Or wherever you listen to your favorite show.

611
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 4: For more information on Rip Current, visit the show website

612
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 4: at ripcurrentpod dot com.

613
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:00,400
Speaker 1: Two