1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, killer and Dad Chris Watts 2 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: using old time religion to lure women while he is 3 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:18,959 Speaker 1: behind bars. What I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. 4 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:20,600 Speaker 1: I want to thank you for being with us. 5 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:24,799 Speaker 2: All of these women that are that are writing to 6 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 2: him and sending him love letters and sending him money 7 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 2: through the meal that has overloaded his commissary. 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 3: That's a monster. 9 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:36,840 Speaker 1: That's a real monster. He knew exactly what he was doing. 10 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 2: I said, it seems to me like there was a 11 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 2: monster inside of you and it was boiling and boiling 12 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:44,199 Speaker 2: and it had to come out, and that's why you 13 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 2: killed human. 14 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: Did you see just right there where a sheet was 15 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: being held up. I'd like to look at that again 16 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: because I think that's something that all you ladies out 17 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: there that are writing and corresponding with killer Dad Chris Watts. 18 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: That is the sheet in which Sanan Watts was bundled 19 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: up and those poor le had to unfold it. Just 20 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: quick refresher to Sidney Sumner joining me Crime Stories investigative reporter, 21 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: could you tell me where again? His wife, Shanan Watts 22 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:42,679 Speaker 1: was found buried in a shallow grave after coffin birth 23 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: of her first boy, Nico, where was this sheet? Sydney Sumner. 24 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 4: Well, Bella and Celeste were inside of an oil tank, 25 00:01:56,080 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 4: and about fifty feet away, Shananne Watts was buried face down, 26 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 4: wrapped in this sheet, with Nico between her legs, birthing 27 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 4: him post mortem in a shallow grace. And Chris Watts 28 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 4: said he buried her faith down in a way from 29 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 4: the girls, to punish her. 30 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: Face down in a way from their two little girls, 31 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 1: to punish her to doctor Judy Hoe joining us, and 32 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: I haven't even gotten into his old time religion, luring 33 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: women behind bars. Boy, do we need a shrink tonight? 34 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: Doctor Judy Hoe is joining me clinical forensic neuropsychologist. She's 35 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 1: the author of the new Rules of Attachment. She's the 36 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:44,239 Speaker 1: author of Stop Self Sabotage. And you can find her 37 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: a doctor Judyhoe dot com, Judyhoeho dot com. Doctor Judy, 38 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 1: that's a new fact that many people have just learned 39 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 1: that when after he murdered his wife, Shenan Watts, and 40 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: they're two little girls, Belle and Celeste, he Chris wattson 41 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 1: buried her Shenan Watts face down so she couldn't look 42 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 1: to where her children were as punishment. I think nothing 43 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: could hurt me worse than to be forever away from 44 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: my two children, the twins. That is f up. Okay, 45 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 1: that's a Latin term. You rarely hear it in court, 46 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 1: but I think you know what it means without a 47 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: full definition. He buried her face down so she could 48 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: not gaze in death at her children. 49 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 5: Ye see, it's incredible. It's like the last thing that 50 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 5: he just had to do to make everything so much worse, 51 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 5: as if it already isn't terrible enough. And that just 52 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 5: shows you the mindset that he has. He already murdered her, 53 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 5: and he decided that she was not going to even 54 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 5: be able to have any kind of interaction, any kind 55 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 5: of connection with her children. It's like he wanted her 56 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 5: to suffer even in death. I mean, you have to 57 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 5: think about the mindset of somebody who would plot that 58 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 5: as they were doing it and saying, you know what, 59 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 5: I don't even want to give her the dignity of 60 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:18,160 Speaker 5: facing up. I want to put her face down. So 61 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 5: not only is she continuing to suffocate and dead, she's 62 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 5: not even going to be able to look at her family. 63 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: Joining us, Doctor Kendall Crown's renowned chief medical Examiner Terren County. 64 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:31,599 Speaker 1: That's fort Worth, never a lack of business there. He 65 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 1: is an estatemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine 66 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 1: at TCU, and he is the star of a hit 67 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: new podcast, Mayhem and the Morgue, Doctor Kendall Crowns, thank 68 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 1: you for being with us. What is coffin birth? 69 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:51,600 Speaker 6: Coffin birth is because when the individual is decomposing and 70 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 6: they're pregnant, the gases formed from decompositions swell up the 71 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:01,359 Speaker 6: abdomen and start creating pressure. Often this cause bodily fluids 72 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 6: to purge out of the mouth and nose, out of 73 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 6: the anus and vagina. But since she's pregnant as well, 74 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 6: it forced the pressure from these gases forming forces down 75 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:13,719 Speaker 6: on the uterus and then expels the fetus out of 76 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 6: the vaginal canal, causing basically a birth of the fetus. 77 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 1: Okay, I am digesting what you said, and I want 78 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: to say it in regular people taught when the body decomposes, 79 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: gases are created. That's why the stomach or the body 80 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: blows up and the body begins to smell, and those 81 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 1: gases force baby Nico through the vaginal canal and she 82 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:41,840 Speaker 1: gives birth posthumously after death. Is that correct? 83 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 6: That is correct, That's basically what it is. 84 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: That said Steve Helling, joining US investigative reporter Daily Mail, 85 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 1: who got the exclusive on this story. I don't know 86 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:58,600 Speaker 1: why you keep saying it's a story, because these are 87 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:05,559 Speaker 1: real people. Steve Helling, my longtime friend and cohort. Steve, 88 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: I want you to watch this hungry. 89 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 7: I feel about any of your food now, what kind 90 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 7: of thing doesn't matter earlier? Thank you though. 91 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: Okay, Steve Helling DEI Mail. He's chowing down. He's woofing 92 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: down pizza while the pictures of Bella and Celeste are 93 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:51,840 Speaker 1: right in front of him, and his wife who he murdered, 94 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 1: just had coffin birth. He's chowing down. Did you see that? 95 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:03,479 Speaker 1: They should have gotten him double yeah. 96 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 8: I mean, I've lost my appetite right now, and this 97 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 8: isn't my wife and my children. So I can't believe 98 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 8: that he's sitting there eating a pizza after all that 99 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 8: had happened. 100 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 9: But you know, we're. 101 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 8: Starting to see all this stuff that he does. He 102 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 8: doesn't operate like you and I do. He operates on 103 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 8: the sociopathic level. 104 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: Okay, you're throwing around a medical term. You said he's 105 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 1: operating on a what level? Steve Helling? 106 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 8: I just said sociopathic? And you know what, I kind 107 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 8: of stand by that one. You know, I'm not I'm not. 108 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: Saying you're wrong. I'm just very impressed. Sociopathic level. Okay, 109 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: Doctor Judy Hoe. I recall, and I'm projecting, which is 110 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 1: dangerous to do when you're analyzing a case. But I 111 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: recall after my fiance murdered, I lost down to eighty 112 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: nine pounds. I couldn't eat, I couldn't jurny. I remember 113 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 1: the first thing I consumed. It was orange juice out 114 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: of my mom and dad's fridge, and suddenly I could 115 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: eat again. Do you see him? Do you see that? 116 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: I don't think at that point. Correct me if I'm wrong, 117 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 1: Sydney Sumner and Steve Helling, I don't think the bodies 118 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: had even been found yet. The little girls, Bella and Celesti, 119 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: I think ages one and three. The skin on their arms. 120 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: Look at her little arms, Doctor Judy Hoe ripped off 121 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 1: when he pushed them down a cylindrical oil container that 122 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: was only about eight to eleven inches wide. He shoved, 123 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: there you go, he shoved the girl's bodies down that 124 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 1: and the skin on their arms came off, and he 125 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:52,559 Speaker 1: is chowing down on a pepperoni pizza with sausage on top. 126 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 5: I don't get it, Nancy, this isn't a clinical term, 127 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 5: but he's obviously a monster. But going back to clinical terms, 128 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 5: when somebody may have sociopathic tendencies, there are genetic loads 129 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 5: for that, meaning that sometimes their brains are just not 130 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 5: stimulated by the things that normal people would be stimulated by, 131 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 5: so in this case, murdering his entire family and then 132 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 5: it's like his brain doesn't even light up with disgust, 133 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 5: with fear, with you, feelings of being disgusted with himself 134 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 5: after what he's done. Instead, it's going towards his hunger 135 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 5: cues and he's saying, yummy, I want to have my 136 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:38,959 Speaker 5: meal right now, and I'm going to enjoy this meal. 137 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 5: There's something most likely wrong with the wiring of his 138 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 5: brain and how he even perceives experiences on top of 139 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 5: everything else that he did, but that also leads him 140 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 5: to be able to do these things and then to 141 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:56,319 Speaker 5: eat apparently a delicious meal afterwards, as if nothing happened. 142 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: Doctor Kendel Crown's jumping off. Doctor Judy Hope just told 143 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: us doctor Crown's, why is it that great grief or 144 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 1: anxiety makes a human not want to eat? When they're upset, 145 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:14,839 Speaker 1: they can't eat or they feel nauseous. 146 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 6: I think it's the emotions that well up and it 147 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 6: causes feelings in your stomach and in your brain. It 148 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 6: just causes the drive to eat to be depressed or 149 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 6: suppressed by that. Most people that Crowns I. 150 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 1: Could have said that, and I'm just a trial lawyer. 151 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 1: When you're upset, you don't want to eat, That's basically 152 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:40,319 Speaker 1: what you said. But there's got to be something metabolic, 153 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: something physical that makes you not want to eat. And 154 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: I'm getting at he just shoved his daughters down those 155 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:51,320 Speaker 1: cylindrical containers. He buried his wife face down to give 156 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 1: birth post mortem. His son, baby Nico, is lying in 157 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: the grave with her mother right there, and he's chowing down. 158 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:02,439 Speaker 1: I'm trying to find an answer. 159 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 6: Well, I don't have a good one for you, Nancy. 160 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 6: I can't explain why he's able to eat after he 161 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 6: murdered his family in that manner. 162 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 1: So I met a laws why doctor Callen Crown's let 163 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:16,959 Speaker 1: me see him this is a first a medical doctor 164 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 1: telling me I don't know the answer. I'm really impressed. 165 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 1: I'd rather tell me that and make something up or 166 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 1: just bluff your way through it. So maybe if it's 167 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 1: not physical, which you would know about if it was physical, 168 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:35,439 Speaker 1: what about it, doctor Gdi? How why does that work? 169 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: Because he's obviously not upset at all. 170 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 5: Well, Nancy, when we are in our eat and digest mode, 171 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 5: which is when we experience hunger cues and when we 172 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:50,239 Speaker 5: want to have, you know, food, when we have an appetite, 173 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 5: it's because our bodies are not in fight or flight, right, 174 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:57,320 Speaker 5: our bodies are not being provoked. It's not feeling threatened, 175 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:00,959 Speaker 5: it's feeling relaxed. It's feeling like it wants to And 176 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 5: clearly this is what this man is doing. After the 177 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:08,320 Speaker 5: heinous crimes he's consumed, he's so easily able to settle 178 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 5: back in to that rest and relaxation phase. This is 179 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 5: why when people are stressed out when trauma happens, they 180 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 5: can't sleep. It's because of the fight or flight system 181 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 5: kicking in. Both systems can't be active at once, and 182 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 5: yet his rest and relaxation SPA system is on, which 183 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:26,719 Speaker 5: is what allows him to be able to eat in 184 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 5: this state, and that is why it's so disgusting and egregious, 185 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:33,719 Speaker 5: and why he may very well be a sociopath. These 186 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 5: are the things that we look for, is does somebody 187 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 5: have essentially zero emotional response to trauma, to blood, to violence, 188 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 5: to the point where they can still sleep well at night, 189 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 5: to the point where they can still eat. Apparently, as 190 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 5: I mentioned, the most delicious meal of his life, he 191 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 5: seems to be really enjoying. 192 00:12:56,440 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Randolph Rice joining me, a 193 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: former felony prosecutor, current criminal defense and civil lawyer at 194 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: Rice Law, a firm founded by him. Randolph Rice, thank 195 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:17,560 Speaker 1: you for being with us. You know how many times 196 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 1: I would play that front of the jury. The jury 197 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: would probably be sicking with their stomachs looking at the 198 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 1: crime scene photos and seeing that sheet unfolded. I was 199 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:28,719 Speaker 1: just showing. But it's not bothering him. You know who 200 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 1: reminds me of Randolph Rice? And you're gonna hate this, 201 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:37,680 Speaker 1: Scott Peterson When the detectives and they told it to 202 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 1: me here on Crime Stories. One night, when the detectives 203 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 1: came to Scott Peterson and said, Scott, the bodies that 204 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 1: washed up at San Francisco Bay. We just got back 205 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:57,440 Speaker 1: the DNA and it's Lacey and your son Connor. Within 206 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:01,680 Speaker 1: about twelve minutes they were in the car. He asked 207 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: him to pull over. I believe it's to an in 208 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 1: and out so he could get a double double with 209 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 1: cheese and a milkshake. Mm hmm. That just rubbed me 210 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 1: the wrong way. Same thing here, what do you do 211 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:17,439 Speaker 1: with your client? You can't help him now. He did 212 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 1: that before you got hired, chowing down Pepperoni sausage, Luw Works, 213 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: wild bellots less photos are right in front of him 214 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 1: and Nancy. 215 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 10: You're exactly right. 216 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 11: That's what prosecutors would have shown that this case going 217 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 11: to trial immediately was this. This is the indifference that 218 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 11: he has towards the death of his children. And that's 219 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 11: exhibit A when it comes to trying to show or 220 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 11: showing at least a jury if he had gone to trial, 221 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 11: that he is just a monster. 222 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 9: In side of the other guests. 223 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: Have said, Okay, you do know that you're a defense attorney, right, 224 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 1: you haven't traveled into some alternate universe. What do you 225 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 1: do with something like that? What do you say to 226 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: a jury? They look at that, and then they look 227 00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 1: over at you and are like, what what do you. 228 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 11: Say, Nancy. That's one of the hardest things to deal 229 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 11: with when you've got situations like this evidence that you 230 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 11: just cannot get around. And that's when you ultimately tell 231 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 11: your clients, this may be a case that we have 232 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 11: to take a flea on because we're not gonna win 233 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,119 Speaker 11: based on a jury seeing how you are just indifferent 234 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 11: to these photographs. 235 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: Randolph Rice, I'm gonna help you. I'm gonna throw you 236 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 1: a crutch so you can limp out of this conversation. 237 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: Have you ever heard of stress eating that? He was 238 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 1: so upset, he was just like a little gobbling it down? 239 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: What about that? Or here's a great one from the 240 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 1: back to Scott Peterson. Just because he's a low life crud, 241 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: a cheater, a philander, and a liar doesn't mean he's 242 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: a killer. Just because he's pigging out doesn't mean he 243 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 1: committed murder. I'm helping you, Randolph, grab the live wrapped 244 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 1: I'm throwing to you. 245 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 11: Those are all great defenses, and I think here's one more. 246 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,479 Speaker 11: The fact that he felt so comfortable in that examination 247 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 11: room that he was able to eat shows that he's 248 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 11: innocent altogether. That's the argument that I'd make in front 249 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 11: of the jury, and you. 250 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: Obviously said that with a straight face. Sherlyn Catle is 251 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: joining us, author of The Murders of Christopher Watts and 252 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: The Many Faces of Christopher Watts, a five year update, 253 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 1: and I hope you've got a third book in you 254 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: because there's so much men. Starting with old Time Religion. 255 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 1: I had that in my head all night. I couldn't 256 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 1: get it out of my head. Have you ever had 257 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 1: that happen? You remember that old song? It was good 258 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: for a grandma and grandpa. It's good enough for me. 259 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 1: Old time religion. He's using it to lure women into 260 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: his love trap. But before I get to that, who 261 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 1: is this guy that chows down on a Pepperoni pizza 262 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 1: while he's looking at the children he murdered? 263 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 12: Well, two things. He detached himself, I believe. And I'm 264 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 12: not a doctor, but I'm am spending time with him. 265 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 12: I can see that he is able to detach himself 266 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 12: from the situation. And he told me once that he 267 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 12: never occurred to him that he would get caught. So 268 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 12: when he was sitting in this integragation, he didn't. He 269 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 12: hadn't had his lie detect or touch yet, so in 270 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 12: his mind he was still okay. They were treating him nice, 271 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 12: you know, the police officers, and they knew how to 272 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:32,159 Speaker 12: they knew how to work him because they felt sorry 273 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:34,879 Speaker 12: for him. If you're knownice, she taps him on the 274 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 12: back and she's feeling sorry for him. They know how 275 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 12: to get everything out of him because he's a player, 276 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 12: and so he's easily played. 277 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 13: I believe you're very hungry. 278 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 7: Yeah, I feel about any of your food now what 279 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:54,159 Speaker 7: kind of like? 280 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 14: It doesn't matter really. 281 00:17:57,320 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 7: Thank you though. 282 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 3: Okay, But these women they want to marry him, they 283 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:23,120 Speaker 3: want to support him, they want to visit with him, 284 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 3: they want to talk to him on the phone. 285 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 1: I mean, he may smile, but there's something cold in 286 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 1: his eyes. What an artful deceiver he is, you know, 287 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 1: that's what the devil is often called the deceiver. 288 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 8: We can hear each other anywhere in our home. We 289 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 8: put our carriers next to the wall, or there's a bugget. 290 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 1: And you can hear like a phone. 291 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 10: At the Dodge Correctional Institution, Chris Watts can hear adjoining 292 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 10: cellmate Dylan Tallman, imprisoned on drug charges since nineteen and 293 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:54,640 Speaker 10: the two become close. Tollman claims Watts truly found God 294 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,119 Speaker 10: watching a Nancy Grace program on the murders of his 295 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:01,199 Speaker 10: pregnant wife and daughters. Tollman says as Great addresses Watts 296 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:03,919 Speaker 10: through the TV while photos of Shane Ann Bella and 297 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 10: Cels flash on screen. Watts falls to his knees and 298 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 10: confesses his sins. Tallman calls the moment Watts rock bottom. 299 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:18,879 Speaker 1: You were seeing clips from a Lifetime movie Network movie 300 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: about Watts in Shanan. Wait a minute, Steve Helling joining 301 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:30,919 Speaker 1: us Daily Mail. So he claims he found the Lord. 302 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 1: And I am not pooh pooing that I'm happy he 303 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 1: found the Lord and he can get complete forgiveness from 304 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 1: the Lord. That does not mean he gets out of jail. 305 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,440 Speaker 1: So he claims he found the Lord or is it 306 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: the friend Tallman after watching one of our programs. 307 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 8: Dylan Tallman was the one who told me that you 308 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 8: were talking about him and they were watching it and 309 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 8: you addressed him through the according to Dylan, and said, 310 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 8: Chris Watts, you know what is wrong with you, basically, 311 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 8: And it was the moment that Chris allegedly, according to 312 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 8: Dylan dropped to his knees, confessed his sins. 313 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 9: Became a Christian. 314 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:19,439 Speaker 8: Whatever you said, convicted him enough that he decided to 315 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 8: make a conversion. 316 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,200 Speaker 1: Okay, well maybe that will get me into heaven. Doctor 317 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 1: Judy Hope again, clinical forensic neuro psychologist, author of multiple books, 318 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: Doctor Judy, I've seen a lot of behind bars conversions 319 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 1: and I'm happy for them. But for this guy, Chris Watts, 320 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: I find it hard to believe. 321 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 5: You have to be a bit spectacle, especially given what 322 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:50,399 Speaker 5: we've seen of his behavior so far. Is this just 323 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 5: another ploy? Is this just another manipulation. We haven't even 324 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 5: really gotten into all of the women who he appears 325 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 5: to have been manipulating behind bars, and so he can 326 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 5: be a very convincing storyteller, right, And like you said, Nancy, 327 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 5: if someone has truly converted has to be forgiven. Is 328 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 5: trying to be a better person, found God. That's awesome 329 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 5: if that's really happened. But based on what we've seen 330 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,679 Speaker 5: so far, and I'm just talking about behaviors only not 331 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 5: that convinced, really, not that convinced. 332 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 1: Okay, behind bars conversion or is Wat's using his old 333 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:31,399 Speaker 1: time religion conversion to lure women. Take a lesson to 334 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 1: it his best, he says. 335 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:37,200 Speaker 15: Tolman says Watts refuses to discuss his crimes outside of 336 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:41,679 Speaker 15: context of faith. Comparing his actions to Bible stories, Watts 337 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 15: mostly focuses on the sin of adultery, very seldom mentioning 338 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 15: the actual murders. Watts compares a fair partner, Nicole Kessinger, 339 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:53,640 Speaker 15: whom he convinced his marriage was over, to Bethsheba and Jezebel. 340 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:55,720 Speaker 15: Loats writes of Nicole. 341 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 14: She is of evil spirits, like Jezebel. The words of 342 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 14: a harlot have brought me low. Her flattering speech was 343 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 14: like drops of honey that pierced my heart and soul. 344 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 14: Little did I know that all her guests were in 345 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:10,399 Speaker 14: the chamber of death. How did I let this happen? 346 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 14: The blessings you have bestowed upon me were right in 347 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 14: front of me, and still I followed the perfume of 348 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 14: a strange woman. 349 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: Okay, what did I just hear? My ears are bleeding, 350 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:31,360 Speaker 1: Sidney Sumner, He is blaming murdering his wife at two ladies? 351 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:36,120 Speaker 1: Are you listening? You that are writing him and patting 352 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 1: his commissary account? Okay, Sidney, help me. He's blaming the 353 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 1: murders that he committed on his wife and two girls 354 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: on who his wife, Shananne and his lover Nicole Cassinger. 355 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 4: Well, we got two layers. So he originally tries to 356 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 4: blame these murders on Shanan. He says he came home 357 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,919 Speaker 4: told Shanan he wanted a divorce, and she turned around 358 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 4: and killed their children, which is why he killed her 359 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 4: and then got rid of all of the bodies. So 360 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:14,160 Speaker 4: that was the original story he tried to convince everyone 361 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:18,440 Speaker 4: is what truly happened. And now that he's been convicted 362 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 4: and everyone kind of knew, there's no way Shennan killed 363 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:26,359 Speaker 4: her own children. He then flips it on Nicole Kessinger 364 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,920 Speaker 4: and says it's her fault. If he never had met her, 365 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 4: if they'd never been dating, he never would have killed 366 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:33,880 Speaker 4: his family. 367 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:40,160 Speaker 1: Ooh, there's Nicole Kessinger and speaking of Bathsheba. Now he's 368 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 1: blaming when none of this is okay, there's a booty 369 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:46,199 Speaker 1: shot when none of this is working, Randolph Rice, I 370 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 1: don't guess you've ever used a biblical defense. He begins 371 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:56,160 Speaker 1: to blame Bathsheba and Jezebel. You know, Beth Sheeba is right, 372 00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 1: King David David and goliaths? David. Why do guys your 373 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: clients always blame the woman. Okay, there's Eve, It's her fault. 374 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:11,200 Speaker 1: She listened to the snake. Okay, now it's best Sheba. 375 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:15,640 Speaker 1: Now it's Jezebel. Who's next? Salome who danced in front 376 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: of the king and then he chopped off John the 377 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 1: Baptist's head and served it on a silver platter. 378 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:26,440 Speaker 11: Who's next, Nancy? I think this is all just coming 379 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,119 Speaker 11: from a jailhouse snitch who wants to get his fifteen 380 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 11: minutes of fame. And I'm not really sure that that's 381 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 11: actually got much validity as to what his real beliefs are. 382 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:36,879 Speaker 11: And to be honest with you, this may be is 383 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 11: his finding of God, this religious experience he's had, maybe 384 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 11: a basis for his defense attorneys to go back to 385 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,399 Speaker 11: court and ask for some sort of modification of his sentence. 386 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 11: If he truly is asking for forgiveness. 387 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: Put him up? What because he has converted to Christianity? 388 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:58,359 Speaker 1: According to him, the narcissist, psychopath, the sociopath him that 389 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,479 Speaker 1: will say anything and woofed out of pizza looking at 390 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 1: the photos of his dead children. That's going to get 391 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:06,879 Speaker 1: an order modification, which means a sentence reduction. 392 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 11: How Nancy, it's always worth a try if there's some 393 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 11: sort of change in your life, some sort of thing 394 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:15,879 Speaker 11: that you have come forward and been able to maybe 395 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 11: make some admission or some acceptance of a guilt here, 396 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 11: that it may be worth going back to the court 397 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 11: and asking for some sort of modification of this sentence. 398 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 1: Always the woman's fault. I hope his next judge is 399 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: in a woman. 400 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 10: Watts blames the women in his life for his family's demise, 401 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 10: which he calls the tragedy. Watts first blames pregnant wife 402 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,680 Speaker 10: Shannann for the murders, claiming she strangled Bella and celest 403 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 10: after he asked for a divorce and he killed her 404 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 10: in a rage. Wats eventually admits he killed his daughters 405 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:49,120 Speaker 10: out of a desire to clear Shannan's name. Watts then 406 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:53,440 Speaker 10: places the blame on Kessinger's temptation, claiming she enticed him 407 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:54,959 Speaker 10: into his murderous spree. 408 00:25:57,800 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 3: There's so many women think that he's good looking to 409 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 3: the points at all these women that have written him, Nancy, 410 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 3: they send him money in the mail. He has a 411 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:06,879 Speaker 3: fan club. 412 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 12: My takeaway is that there's something in him that he 413 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 12: thinks seeking just rule any woman. 414 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 15: While Tallman says Watts is genuinely a man of faith, 415 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,680 Speaker 15: he admits Watts still has an incredible weakness for women. 416 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:25,439 Speaker 15: Watts quickly becomes infatuated, even obsessed, with female pen pals, 417 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 15: writing them fifteen page letters, front and back. Hours poured 418 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:33,679 Speaker 15: into these relationships keeps. Watt's commissary account patted multiple women 419 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:35,399 Speaker 15: making regular contributions. 420 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 1: Okay, now we're hearing this from a guy, Dylan Tallman, 421 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:44,640 Speaker 1: who is hey, listen. 422 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:49,160 Speaker 16: Chris Watts lost all his prison privileges for two weeks 423 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 16: after his underwear is found in a man's cell. An 424 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 16: incident report that reveals Watt's underwear and petroleum jelly were 425 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 16: found in a fellow inmate, Dylan Tallman's cell. 426 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 1: Okay, not judging, don't care. This is from podcast lock 427 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 1: Up twenty three and one Steve Helling. Chris Wats is 428 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:18,400 Speaker 1: underwear and best selling and Tolman's jail Celle what I mean. 429 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,159 Speaker 8: I've spent a lot of time talking to Dylan Tollman, 430 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 8: and I don't know exactly what that's all about. I 431 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 8: don't think that there's anything there there just on based 432 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 8: on what I don't know. I can say that Chris, 433 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 8: you never can tell. Chris will do whatever Chris needs 434 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:42,879 Speaker 8: to do to you know ingratiate himself with people, whatever 435 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,399 Speaker 8: that means. And so he decided that Dylan was somebody 436 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 8: who he could write books with, who he could kind 437 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 8: of use as an outside conduit and whatever Chris was 438 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 8: trying to do. 439 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:54,880 Speaker 9: I don't know. 440 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 8: I have no idea why his underwear would be in 441 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 8: in Chris's cell. I don't know, but I don't think 442 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 8: it's what everybody think. 443 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,240 Speaker 1: You are an investigative reporter, right. 444 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:07,640 Speaker 9: Yes, well, I mean here's the thing. 445 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 1: Both Chris and you can figure out why Watts's underwear 446 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:16,639 Speaker 1: and Vasellaine were in Tallman's sale diagram. 447 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:21,360 Speaker 8: Hellings, I would actually prefer that you don't. But yeah, 448 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 8: I mean, I understand what you're saying, uh, And I 449 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,399 Speaker 8: don't know. You know, they both have said multiple times 450 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 8: there was nothing sexual between them, and Chris really does 451 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 8: seem to be much more fixated on the women and 452 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 8: on the ladies. But then prison does things to people, 453 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 8: so I can't answer that question. 454 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 1: Okay. Sidney Sumner joining US Crime Stories investigative reporter may 455 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 1: have an innocent, well quasi innocent explanation that Watts went 456 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 1: fishing from sale to sale. 457 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 4: Right, So their official story behind what happened here is 458 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 4: that Paulman would be being punished. He was not allowed 459 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 4: to leave a cell. He was not allowed to have 460 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 4: access to commissary items, so Watts was helping him out 461 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 4: by ordering commissary items for Tallman and then using dental 462 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 4: flash to throw them down the hallway underneath the cell 463 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 4: door so Tallman could pull that item in and use it. 464 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 4: So Watts was ordering commissary things. The items were arriving 465 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 4: with his name on them, then he was giving them 466 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 4: to Tallman for his personal use, and when Tallman got 467 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 4: caught with these items, it made for this embarrassing headline. 468 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: I want to get back to luring women with old 469 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 1: time religion and joining me now, Cheryl Lynn catl She 470 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 1: is the author of the Murders of Christopher Watts and 471 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 1: The Many Faces of Christopher Watts, a five year update. 472 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 1: Who are these women, Cheryl Lynn? 473 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 12: They come from every walk of life, and what is 474 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 12: interesting is that many of them will send me a 475 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 12: message to messenger telling me that they are writing with 476 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:16,719 Speaker 12: him and talking to him on the phone, and what 477 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 12: should they do. And it doesn't matter how many times 478 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 12: that I tell them, get away, don't do this, stay 479 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 12: away from him. They end up going that direction anyway. 480 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 12: When he gets them to a certain point. One woman 481 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 12: divorced her husband over him. When he gets them to 482 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 12: a certain point, then he tells them this can't go 483 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 12: anywhere for you, and I'm breaking up with you. And 484 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 12: he goes on to the next And he has several 485 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 12: women at a time that he's writing to, writing long 486 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 12: letters to and yeah, and it's sad because they just 487 00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 12: fall for him. They send him money and they they 488 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 12: just and they feel like he's godly and he's meeting 489 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 12: their needs spiritually and that he comforts them and he 490 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 12: knows all the right things to say. And by the way, 491 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 12: he has used this religion thing way before he met Tollman, 492 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 12: because my letters to him from the very beginning, which 493 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 12: was only six months after the murders, he talks about 494 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 12: finding God. That's how he started out with me. So 495 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 12: I think, you know, a lot of it is just 496 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 12: that's one of the things that he has found that 497 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,080 Speaker 12: works for him. Maybe it works for him with women 498 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:45,719 Speaker 12: and men I don't know, but yeah, he's very very 499 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 12: much always sending Bible scriptures to these women, always, you know, 500 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 12: comparing himself to someone in the Bible, often Paul. One 501 00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 12: woman was convinced he's the modern day Paul in the Bible, 502 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 12: from the Bible. So yeah, it's okay. 503 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 1: Wait a minute and put her up, please, Sherily, Anne. 504 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 1: You mean Paul formerly Saw who murdered Christians. Saw, the 505 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 1: persecutor for the Roman Empire, turned Paul after he was 506 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 1: blinded by the light and he would write letters from 507 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 1: behind bars. Okay, he's comparing himself to Paul. Correct and 508 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 1: women fall for that. Yes, you should do okay, straight 509 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 1: out to doctor Judy Hoe. We need a shrink, doctor 510 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 1: Judy Hoe, clinical forensic neuropsychologist. What okay, I'd like to 511 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 1: say what is wrong with him? But what is wrong 512 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 1: with them? 513 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 5: Nancy? I think that when people get involved with known criminals, 514 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 5: there are some behavioral patterns. Of course, they can indeed 515 00:32:57,920 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 5: come from all different walks of life, but I think 516 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 5: that they're are some key characteristics, like wanting to feel special, 517 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 5: especially through maybe changing someone who may be misunderstood by 518 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 5: society or may actually truly be innocent or are trying 519 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 5: to turn a new leaf, and they want to be 520 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 5: that special person that changes that person because it makes 521 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 5: them feel better about themselves. Also, sometimes these are individuals 522 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,080 Speaker 5: who have their own trauma histories don't understand what a 523 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 5: healthy relationship looks like. To them, this is a healthy relationship. 524 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 5: It also happens sometimes to individuals who are looking for purpose, 525 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,480 Speaker 5: for some kind of leadership in their life, and now 526 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 5: they've fallen behind this person who seems like he's a leader. 527 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 5: But do you see the way that he talks to 528 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,680 Speaker 5: these women, the quotes that you've been talking about all 529 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 5: throughout this show, where essentially once he gets them in 530 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 5: his grasp, then it's all about you are subordinate to me, 531 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 5: you are the evil one. I'm being tempted by you. 532 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 5: None of this is my fault. And people fall for 533 00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 5: that because it's an ideology that at least guides their 534 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 5: lives and their behavior, and they're looking to this guy 535 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 5: to help them be their moral compass. That's clearly concerning. 536 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,840 Speaker 5: But when these individuals are in these relationships, they don't 537 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 5: see that. They only see the love bombing. They only 538 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 5: see that now they feel special and that they have 539 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:23,760 Speaker 5: something that's guiding their every day and all of their steps. 540 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:34,880 Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace. You know Randolph Rice, a 541 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,280 Speaker 1: veteran trial lawyer, former felony prosecutor, are now criminal defense 542 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 1: and civil attorney. I've seen it in court a million times. 543 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,840 Speaker 1: I didn't understand it the way doctor G. D. Hoe 544 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:48,239 Speaker 1: is describing it. But I would say wives. I would 545 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: say wives and girlfriends or girlfriends even ex's show up 546 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 1: in court. When I would have a guy that had 547 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 1: killed multiple people to support him. It's like they don't 548 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 1: hear any of the evidence. Blah blah blah blah. In 549 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: their head. All they hear is I plead not guilty. 550 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,239 Speaker 1: Have you noticed that phenomenon? These women are willing to 551 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 1: believe anything. 552 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 11: Well, you're seeing it now in the Luigi Mangioni case 553 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 11: where they have where he's got people following him around, 554 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 11: sending him letters, writing him, sending him commissary. This seems 555 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,520 Speaker 11: to be a common pattern. Now, Whereas the doctor Hoe 556 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:25,520 Speaker 11: mentioned that there's some people that just don't have healthy 557 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:29,759 Speaker 11: relationships and they're ultimately attaching themselves to killers. So that 558 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:31,840 Speaker 11: is not a good way I think to live a life. 559 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,680 Speaker 11: If you're somebody looking for a partner out. 560 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 1: There, all of you ladies that think you have a 561 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 1: crush on Chris Watts, I want you to hear and 562 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 1: watch his demeanor. What he first said when Sinan, his wife, 563 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,840 Speaker 1: the mother of his three children, went missing. This is 564 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:53,319 Speaker 1: what he said. 565 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 14: First, she'd tell you anything about leaving, moving out, not moving. 566 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,359 Speaker 6: Out, I mean plast I'm talking through this morning. 567 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 5: She says she's gonna take the kids. 568 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 14: To her friend's house, and then she that's where she 569 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:05,120 Speaker 14: was going to be. 570 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 11: And then I've texted her today. 571 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 14: I've never heard anything but the cars, cars here. 572 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:13,719 Speaker 6: Cars here, unless somebody came picked her up. 573 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 11: But the people that I know, nobody's heard from here. 574 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:19,680 Speaker 7: Nobody see her. 575 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 1: And then he said. 576 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 7: This, Bella, Celeste, if you're out there, just just come back, 577 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 7: Like if somebody has her, just please bring her back. 578 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 7: I need to see everybody. I need to see everybody again. 579 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,920 Speaker 7: This house is not complete with without anybody here. 580 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:39,799 Speaker 6: Please bring it back. 581 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:44,919 Speaker 1: That from our friends at Denver seven. And then finally. 582 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:53,799 Speaker 14: This sure she heard them? 583 00:36:53,920 --> 00:37:01,319 Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, you know that, don't her? 584 00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:08,880 Speaker 13: You're her? Did they leave after that night? 585 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:09,080 Speaker 15: Now? 586 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:17,040 Speaker 7: So she started her with the games favor. 587 00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:22,360 Speaker 1: So that last clip was him telling his father that 588 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,799 Speaker 1: he killed Shenan after she murdered her children, just when 589 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:31,719 Speaker 1: she's about eight or nine months pregnant. And then ultimately this. 590 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:35,640 Speaker 13: Are they in the tanks? 591 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 7: Can somebody who doesn't know what they're doing helping those? 592 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:41,840 Speaker 13: Okay, you don't in the tanks? 593 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 7: It's a mister of oil. 594 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 16: And later. 595 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,520 Speaker 13: Tell me that she found out here? Where's that from? 596 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 7: That was what Shanelle was drapped in. 597 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:06,319 Speaker 13: What about the girlies when they re insipportunities? Don't their 598 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:12,279 Speaker 13: blankets or anything? Where did their blankets and toys except. 599 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 7: Probably lend or something like that. 600 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:19,719 Speaker 13: Where did you shut them or put them? 601 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:29,800 Speaker 16: They got. 602 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:35,440 Speaker 10: In a shocking display, cheers rock as pictures of Luigi 603 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:39,279 Speaker 10: Mangoni on screen as the DJ plays Miley Cyrus he 604 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 10: would be the one the crowd cheering photos of Luigi Mangoni. 605 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:47,080 Speaker 10: The cheers get even louder as man Joni's recent booking 606 00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:50,880 Speaker 10: photos are shown. Man Joni has become a sex symbol 607 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,960 Speaker 10: since his arrest, and a fundraiser has raised over one 608 00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:58,120 Speaker 10: hundred thousand dollars for legal fees, and Veronica says, I 609 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,719 Speaker 10: need him so bad, No, like so bad, so so 610 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:05,000 Speaker 10: bad okay, so I would visit him in prison and 611 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:06,040 Speaker 10: bacon cookies. 612 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,279 Speaker 9: Maybe perhaps more, but I haven't thought that. 613 00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:12,319 Speaker 1: Far ahead that f I'm at NESSO ten twenty seven 614 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:17,120 Speaker 1: on TikTok and Jimmy Kimmel Live. So it's history repeating 615 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:21,040 Speaker 1: itself to Steve Helling joining us, I'm deally mail who 616 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:28,800 Speaker 1: first correct the code on this. Luigi Mangioni, Christopher Watts, same. 617 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:34,200 Speaker 9: Thing, same thing, except on some twisted level. 618 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:36,879 Speaker 8: I can say, okay with Luigi maybe if you think 619 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,000 Speaker 8: that he was making a political statement. I don't know, 620 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:44,360 Speaker 8: but Chris Watts was just evil, Like, there's no broader 621 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,400 Speaker 8: statement that was being made here. There was no altruism, 622 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:51,360 Speaker 8: there was no revenge. It was just just an awful, 623 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:52,239 Speaker 8: grizzly murder. 624 00:39:52,400 --> 00:40:00,680 Speaker 1: Oh did you somehow state Luigi Mangioni committed murder? But 625 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:06,800 Speaker 1: it's okay because of people, right, what you just said. 626 00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:09,520 Speaker 9: Okay, well, don't put don't put those words in my mouth. 627 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:19,160 Speaker 8: What I am saying is that I understand there. 628 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:16,880 Speaker 9: Are people who can make. 629 00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:22,600 Speaker 8: Allowances in their head for other crimes, but with Chris Watts, 630 00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:27,359 Speaker 8: there's just there's no way that a sane person can 631 00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:32,160 Speaker 8: explain away what he did in anything other than being evil. 632 00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:34,640 Speaker 9: There's just no possible way. 633 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,120 Speaker 8: And so the idea that all these women, and there's 634 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:41,280 Speaker 8: lots of them, by the way, and they've started coming 635 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:45,200 Speaker 8: forward basically when he breaks up with them. Then they 636 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:47,400 Speaker 8: come to the media, they're like, hey, Steve, want to 637 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:49,960 Speaker 8: see some letters. And the thing is, I've seen enough 638 00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:54,160 Speaker 8: of Chris Watts's hand written ages. I've seen hundreds of pages. 639 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:56,359 Speaker 8: That is pretty easy to look at it and be like, Okay, 640 00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:59,800 Speaker 8: that's that's another one of Chris's things. And you know, 641 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:02,399 Speaker 8: the latest one who came to me, she just had 642 00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:05,720 Speaker 8: all these letters where he's you know, kind of comparing 643 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:10,400 Speaker 8: himself with his Bible saying he compares himself to Bible characters. 644 00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:14,840 Speaker 9: He says that he a big thing is he didn't 645 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:15,280 Speaker 9: do anything. 646 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:17,080 Speaker 8: He doesn't say he didn't do anything wrong, but what 647 00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:22,080 Speaker 8: he does say is that Nicole Kessinger kind of tempted him. 648 00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:25,840 Speaker 9: It's very much the woman. The woman did this to me. 649 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:27,360 Speaker 9: The woman made me do this. 650 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:30,480 Speaker 8: And there's you know, one thing to do with when 651 00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:33,759 Speaker 8: it comes to, you know, converting to Christianity and that 652 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:35,600 Speaker 8: type of thing is you got to accept your own sin. 653 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,919 Speaker 8: You got to you got to be able to say 654 00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:41,480 Speaker 8: I did this and take some ownership, and he doesn't 655 00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:44,320 Speaker 8: really do that. It's mostly the woman did this, the 656 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:46,160 Speaker 8: woman did that. But you're kind of hot, so let's 657 00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:48,600 Speaker 8: keep talking. That's kind of where where he is. 658 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,080 Speaker 1: You're scaring me because it's kind of like you're getting 659 00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:58,040 Speaker 1: into his character and you're explaining it a little too well. Okay, 660 00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:00,960 Speaker 1: there are women that go beyond the is Watt's phenomena 661 00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:03,400 Speaker 1: and they actually marry killers. 662 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:07,080 Speaker 10: The day Eric and Lyle Menindez are sentenced to life 663 00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:10,840 Speaker 10: in prison, Lyle Menendez also ties the Knot with model 664 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:15,080 Speaker 10: Anna Ericson via speakerphone, with Menindez and an attorney as 665 00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:19,080 Speaker 10: their witnesses. The relationship is short lived, Ericson filing for 666 00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:22,360 Speaker 10: divorce when she discovers her husband is writing love letters 667 00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,879 Speaker 10: to other women. Just two years later, Menindez mary's again, 668 00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:30,200 Speaker 10: this time to magazine editor Rebecca Snead. After twenty years, 669 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:34,000 Speaker 10: Sneed announces their separation, denies the split is due to 670 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:35,200 Speaker 10: another affair. 671 00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:39,160 Speaker 1: That was about Lyle Menendez, who murders his mom and dad. 672 00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:45,680 Speaker 1: The brother Eric Menndez, multiple relationships, marriage behind bars, the works. Okay, 673 00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:49,960 Speaker 1: then of course I have to bring up Yourna Vanderslut. 674 00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:53,359 Speaker 10: Hours after your on, van der Slute accepts twenty five 675 00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:57,040 Speaker 10: thousand dollars from Natalie Holloway's family, then lies about her body. 676 00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:01,280 Speaker 10: Vander Slute is gambling in Lima. There meet Stephanie Flores, 677 00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:05,480 Speaker 10: daughter of a prominent Peruvian businessman, at Hotel Tac. Vandr 678 00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:09,160 Speaker 10: Slute attacks Flores, beating and strangling her to death. Her 679 00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:11,080 Speaker 10: body found three days later. 680 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,080 Speaker 15: Lady Figaroa, a young mother, visits a relative in Pure 681 00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:18,600 Speaker 15: Discorda's prison, but starts spending more time with in meat 682 00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:22,719 Speaker 15: Uran Vandersloot. It isn't long before Figaroa is pregnant with 683 00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:26,160 Speaker 15: vander Slute's baby. Figaroa and vander Slute Mary in his 684 00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:30,200 Speaker 15: cell after almost ten years together, vander Slute wants a divorce, 685 00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:35,440 Speaker 15: training Figaroa for younger prettier Eva Pocohuonco, who smuggles him drugs. 686 00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:41,920 Speaker 1: Doctor Judy Hoe, we have heard Steve Helling describing all 687 00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,320 Speaker 1: these women that are writing Chris Watts and how he 688 00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:48,000 Speaker 1: takes comfort and solace from those letters. I don't think 689 00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:49,680 Speaker 1: that's all he's getting from those letters. 690 00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:55,960 Speaker 5: No, he's getting sexual gratification, and when people are this 691 00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:58,320 Speaker 5: is again, Nancy, I feel I feel like a broken record. 692 00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:00,200 Speaker 5: This is not how this is not the first time 693 00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:03,680 Speaker 5: this is happening. But people who may be psychopaths and 694 00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:07,319 Speaker 5: social paths also get sexual gratification from things that other 695 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:11,520 Speaker 5: people would usually find morbid, not at all sexually exciting, 696 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,640 Speaker 5: and this is their way of stimulating their brain, which 697 00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:18,239 Speaker 5: oftentimes have lower activation thresholds. So what that means is 698 00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:23,560 Speaker 5: they need something really out of norm really sometimes even 699 00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:28,239 Speaker 5: grow tesque, disgusting, morally just putrid, to be able to 700 00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:32,040 Speaker 5: get excited, not just sexually excited, but excited in general. 701 00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:35,080 Speaker 5: We get excited when we have a great meal. That's 702 00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:38,440 Speaker 5: a normal person. These individuals, that's not enough for them. 703 00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:41,440 Speaker 5: They need something really really out of the box and 704 00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:46,880 Speaker 5: sometimes often disgusting, to be excited about life, excited sexually, 705 00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:50,920 Speaker 5: to feel feelings of joy. So it's pretty twisted. 706 00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:55,480 Speaker 1: To Cheryl Lynn Catle, author of The Murders of Chris 707 00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:58,839 Speaker 1: Watts and the MENI faces off Chris Watts a five 708 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:02,120 Speaker 1: year update, what is he like when he talks to you? 709 00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:08,480 Speaker 12: Well, I let him know from the very very get 710 00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:13,319 Speaker 12: go that this was not a romantic relationship I wanted 711 00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:14,680 Speaker 12: to have with him, that I wanted to write a 712 00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:18,960 Speaker 12: book with him, and so we had more of a 713 00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:28,400 Speaker 12: well a mothered son type relationship, a friend relationship. 714 00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:28,360 Speaker 6: Is is. 715 00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:32,160 Speaker 12: You know, as far as it can go. For that 716 00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:38,000 Speaker 12: there was never anything romantic between us. But he did 717 00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:43,880 Speaker 12: tell me about things, mainly things that happened with Nicole 718 00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:48,359 Speaker 12: Kessinger that he did with her, and things I think 719 00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:52,960 Speaker 12: that really got him on the hook with her. 720 00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:59,040 Speaker 1: And you know, in my feelings, and may not ask, 721 00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:04,600 Speaker 1: what are you taught talking about what happened with Nicole Kessinger, I. 722 00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:06,239 Speaker 12: Don't know if I can say, if I'm allowed to 723 00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:14,800 Speaker 12: say it on TV. Well, he told me some of 724 00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:17,080 Speaker 12: the things that went on in that apartment between the 725 00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:19,960 Speaker 12: two of them he would take to his grave, which 726 00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:22,560 Speaker 12: is what he has said about a couple of different things. 727 00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:30,120 Speaker 12: And in my talking with him, there were I believe. 728 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:35,400 Speaker 1: Okay, let me understand this, Carlyn. So he is embarrassed 729 00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:38,800 Speaker 1: and appalled at his sex acts with Nicole Kessinger, but 730 00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:43,520 Speaker 1: he freely discusses murdering Shenan Watts and the two children. 731 00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:46,400 Speaker 1: For all of you women out there that think he 732 00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:49,840 Speaker 1: is handsome, that he's a real hotty. I don't know 733 00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:51,799 Speaker 1: why the control room keeps showing the picture of him 734 00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:54,239 Speaker 1: without his shirt on. Doctor Ken, there you go, take 735 00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:58,640 Speaker 1: that down. Doctor Kendall Crowns, could you just explain what 736 00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:02,240 Speaker 1: is ski in slippage? 737 00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:08,080 Speaker 6: Certainly what happens when you decompose the outer layer of 738 00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:11,080 Speaker 6: your skin, or the epidermis, the bonds that hold it 739 00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:14,200 Speaker 6: to the dermis, which is the underlayer of your skin, 740 00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:18,160 Speaker 6: start breaking down, and your skin starts slopping off. This 741 00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:22,000 Speaker 6: happens after several days of decomposition, especially if you're in 742 00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:25,799 Speaker 6: a warm environment, and then all your skin begins slopping off, 743 00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:29,880 Speaker 6: showing the dermis, and in fact your hands and feet 744 00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:32,840 Speaker 6: will slip off in a glove and stalking like distribution 745 00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:36,160 Speaker 6: and still kind of stay intact. That's just a normal 746 00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:39,760 Speaker 6: process and decomposition, Doctor Kennel Crown's. 747 00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:42,120 Speaker 1: As much as I would love to discuss the skin 748 00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:45,279 Speaker 1: slippage of these two little girls and their mother, I 749 00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:47,360 Speaker 1: need to dash out of the studio right now and 750 00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:49,880 Speaker 1: take a shower, a hot shower. Actually, no, I need 751 00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:55,080 Speaker 1: to go boil myself after hearing this. We stop now 752 00:47:55,200 --> 00:48:00,440 Speaker 1: to remember an American Hero Reserve Deputy Eddie Hamer Hardiman 753 00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:04,239 Speaker 1: County Sheriff's Tennessee, just thirty six, killed in the line 754 00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:08,759 Speaker 1: of duty after serving nine years. He leaves behind his 755 00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:15,719 Speaker 1: grieving mother, American Hero Reserved Deputy Addie Hayfer, Nancy Grace, 756 00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:18,040 Speaker 1: signing off goodbye friend.