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Speaker 1: I thought I would write a memoir about having activist parents,

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Speaker 1: and then I decided, no, I'm going to start fiction writing.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, you know what, I think that

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Speaker 1: my background of wedding planning would be the perfect trojan

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Speaker 1: horse to make people care about Puerto.

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Speaker 2: Rico from futro media and pr X. It's let you know, Usa,

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Speaker 2: I'm Maria Rosa Today author Sochil Gonzalez. I'm putting Puerto

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Speaker 2: Rico and her own life at the center of her

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Speaker 2: debut novel, Olga Dies Dreaming. Things didn't always look so

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Speaker 2: bright for Sochil Gonzalez. Eleven years ago. She was thirty

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Speaker 2: one years old when her grandfather, who raised her, died

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Speaker 2: of a severe illness. And on top of that, her

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Speaker 2: marriage was ending.

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Speaker 1: And it was the recession, and my ex husband was like,

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Speaker 1: do you want to stay together or not? And he

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Speaker 1: handed me this letter, this thick letter, and it was

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Speaker 1: like ten handwritten pages about how much I suck, and

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Speaker 1: at the end it was like, you need therapy, and

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Speaker 1: I was like, right, I do.

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Speaker 2: So she started therapy and in a lot of ways

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Speaker 2: it helped, but it was writing her debut novel, Olga

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Speaker 2: Dies Dreaming, at age forty that really took Sochil on

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Speaker 2: a journey of self discovery.

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Speaker 1: Part of Olga gave me a lot of perspective in

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Speaker 1: terms of what were things that were coping mechanisms that

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Speaker 1: I had just had for so long.

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Speaker 2: Olga Dies Dreaming delves into pretty heavy themes like colonialism

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Speaker 2: in Puerto Rico, the gentrification of Brooklyn, and family abandonment,

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Speaker 2: all through the tumultuous lives of a working class New

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Speaker 2: yeor Regan family. The book was published in January of

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, and in two short months, it's been

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Speaker 2: praised by the critics, it made it to the New

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Speaker 2: York Times Bestseller's List, and it's being developed as a

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Speaker 2: TV pilot. Although the novel is a work of fiction,

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Speaker 2: there are a lot of parallels between Soci's life and

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Speaker 2: Olga Acevedos, the main character of her novel, who has

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Speaker 2: a conflict of identity as a working class Latina planning

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Speaker 2: weddings for the ultra rich. Sochi uses family tension and

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Speaker 2: secrets to portray characters that represent the richness of the

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Speaker 2: Puerto Rican experience, and she also makes sure to give

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Speaker 2: us a history lesson on the injustices that the Island

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Speaker 2: has had to live through. Sochi has sat down with

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Speaker 2: me and we talked about why she wanted her first

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Speaker 2: novel to be so autobiographical but also so deeply political,

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Speaker 2: and how she decided to leave her wedding business behind

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Speaker 2: in order to fulfill her dream of becoming a writer.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Latino, USA. Oh, Chila, it's great to have

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Speaker 2: you on the show.

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Speaker 1: Oh it's such an honor. I love this show. So

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Speaker 1: this is a real delight.

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Speaker 2: Really. So I first met you it was, let's see,

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Speaker 2: the spring of twenty twenty one, were at an all

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Speaker 2: women's kind of artists gathering in Soho. I had so

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Speaker 2: many questions when I met you, because I was like, wait,

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Speaker 2: who is so chill? You were a wedding planner and

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Speaker 2: you're like working class. You're Mexican Puerto Rican if I'm

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Speaker 2: not mistaken, Yes, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and from Brooklyn.

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Speaker 2: And I remember when we were talking when we met

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Speaker 2: that you brought up your mom and dad. Your parents

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Speaker 2: were radical Latino and Latina activists in New York City

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Speaker 2: in the nineteen seventies eighties, so you're kind of in

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Speaker 2: the midst of this. Give us just a little bit

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Speaker 2: of the BTS, the behind the scenes of growing up

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Speaker 2: like that.

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Speaker 1: My parents are very involved in the Socialist Worker Party.

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Speaker 1: My dad actually was were in the Brown Power movement

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Speaker 1: in California, and they met when my mom was out there,

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Speaker 1: but she was working to get reparations for sterilization for

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Speaker 1: women in Puerto Rico. A lot of their work was

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Speaker 1: around union organizing and labor rights and housing and also

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Speaker 1: it was very much about how do we fight for

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Speaker 1: independence for this island. But I was raised on the

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Speaker 1: day to day by my mom's parents. It was like

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Speaker 1: this weird thing where my dad would send me like

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Speaker 1: Marks for Beginners, a cartoon book.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, I had that book.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Like my mom would take me to like there

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Speaker 1: was a bookstore called the Pathfinder Bookstore, right, and they'd

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Speaker 1: be all like fighting about politics, like chain smoking. So

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Speaker 1: I lived with my mom for the first three years

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Speaker 1: of my life. But when I first got to Brooklyn

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Speaker 1: and my grandfather'd be walking me around and go to

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Speaker 1: preschool whatever.

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Speaker 2: And I see people at a bus stop and I'll

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Speaker 2: be like, what are they protesting? Like I just I

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Speaker 2: guess anybody getting on a big bus mean that they

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Speaker 2: were going to a protest. Someplace. It.

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Speaker 1: One thing that was weird that is in the book

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Speaker 1: is a lot of the things that I was told

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Speaker 1: were important. My parents did not care about going to

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Speaker 1: an Ivy League school, Like they did not care.

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Speaker 2: Wait, wait, wait a second. You get into Brown, which

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Speaker 2: is a progressive school. It's one of the most challenging

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Speaker 2: to get into intellectually. It is a very creative place.

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Speaker 2: I love the fact that your parents were just like,

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Speaker 2: we don't really care about that though.

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Speaker 1: It did not matter, and it was like this hilarious

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Speaker 1: mix of My grandparents were so working class. I think

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Speaker 1: they had a gd between the two of them. They

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Speaker 1: were like, I never even heard of the school. And

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Speaker 1: then my parents were like, okay, cool, you could have

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Speaker 1: also gone to Brooklyn College, a wonderful school, you know,

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Speaker 1: like it was this bougie institution. I was an art

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Speaker 1: history major and I wrote about postcolonial French Impressionism, and

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Speaker 1: my mother was like, what is this bourgeois nonsense?

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Speaker 2: Like it was ex well, let me ask you about that.

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Speaker 2: You know, there is question of you could have become

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Speaker 2: an activist. You didn't become an activist. I mean, you

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Speaker 2: do end up launching this business of being a wedding

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Speaker 2: planner in New York. It's almost like you were saying

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Speaker 2: to your Trotskyist Socialist workers party mom and dad, you

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Speaker 2: know what, I'm gonna go work for the rich. Were

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Speaker 2: they like, Eskip, You're you're working for the capitalists? What happened?

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Speaker 1: So a lot of my classmates, especially the Latino classmates,

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Speaker 1: a lot of my black classmates, they also had activist

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Speaker 1: parents or came from like a legacy of the movement

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Speaker 1: being like defining, and then all of a sudden, we

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Speaker 1: were all like trying to get jobs at investment.

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Speaker 2: Banks and going to do a share in the Hamptons.

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Speaker 1: And as I got older, I felt a little bit like,

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Speaker 1: what am I doing? I'm a peer? But then I'm

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Speaker 1: not a peer? How did I cast myself into this role?

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Speaker 1: And I wanted to talk about that with Olga, because

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Speaker 1: I don't think that that's isolated. We have a generation

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Speaker 1: that fought to get us seats at the table, and

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Speaker 1: then instead of asking for more, you temporarily are like,

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Speaker 1: I'm so happy I'm here. I'm just so happy. I

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Speaker 1: was asked, I think we lost the thread. And one

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Speaker 1: of the goals that I was trying to do with

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Speaker 1: the book was to reconnect the thread of the recent

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Speaker 1: past and bring it into the present moment.

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Speaker 2: Well, when was it when you were just like, hold

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Speaker 2: on a second, I actually want to use writing a

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Speaker 2: novel kind of click for you because you don't graduate

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Speaker 2: from Brown and say and now I'm going to try

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Speaker 2: to get a novel going or work in the publishing

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Speaker 2: industry or any of that. So why was it that

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Speaker 2: writing was the thing that actually connected with you?

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Speaker 1: I had always been a writer. I remember being in

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Speaker 1: high school and I would write little short stories on

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Speaker 1: my own. And the funny part is in later life,

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Speaker 1: like in middle age, I realized that writing is the

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Speaker 1: only athletic activity I've ever done. Is really running, And

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Speaker 1: I think I like them because they both have such

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Speaker 1: low barriers to end, do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: Like it's like you need a device on which to

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Speaker 1: type and a brain and then you can make up anything.

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Speaker 1: And even when I had the wedding plan business, I

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Speaker 1: wrote a blog that was kind of popular, and I

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Speaker 1: would write advice columns and etiquette columns. I've always liked

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Speaker 1: expressing myself in the written word, and then the seed

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Speaker 1: seed of the novel and thinking about a novel was

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Speaker 1: I remember being at the Javit Center the night of

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Speaker 1: the twenty sixteen elections. I had volunteered with Muhitisbert Hillary,

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Speaker 1: and I'm talking to all these other very liberal democratic

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Speaker 1: volunteers and the subject of Portho Nico comes up and

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Speaker 1: nobody knew anything. I was so frustrated by it, and

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Speaker 1: you felt like when if you were on Twitter, on

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Speaker 1: social media or talking to people, only people that already

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Speaker 1: understood seemed to care. Eventually, after I turned forty, I

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Speaker 1: went to like a summer conference for writing, and I

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Speaker 1: actually went for nonfiction. I thought I would write a

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Speaker 1: memoir about having activist parents, and then I decided that

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Speaker 1: I was like, no, I'm going to start fiction writing.

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Speaker 3: And I was like, you know what. I think that

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Speaker 3: my background of.

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Speaker 1: Wedding plan would be the perfect trojan horse to make

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Speaker 1: people care and understand more about Puerto Rico.

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Speaker 2: Coming up on Latino USA. So ChIL Gonzalez decides to

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Speaker 2: leave behind her life as a wedding plan in order

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Speaker 2: to write her first novel, Volga Dies Dreaming. Stay with us,

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Speaker 2: not Hey, We're back. In the first part of our conversation,

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Speaker 2: so Chill Gonzalez talked about the influence her militant parents

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Speaker 2: had on her from a very young age, and her

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Speaker 2: frustration as an adult when she noticed a lack of

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Speaker 2: interest in Puerto Rico among the people she was hanging

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Speaker 2: out with. This background was the seed for the creation

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Speaker 2: of Olga the main character in her novel olgat Dies Dreaming. So,

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Speaker 2: congratulations on being ana writer who is writing about a

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Speaker 2: woman who is not young and having pretty great sex. Yes,

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Speaker 2: let's talk about Olgai. When were you like, Okay, here

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Speaker 2: she is and she is going to be the title

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Speaker 2: of my book, This fabulous Puerto Rican she's in her forties, right,

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Speaker 2: She's in her forties. That was so important to me.

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Speaker 1: What I knew I wanted to write about was a

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Speaker 1: woman who walks in many worlds, who is very well educated,

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Speaker 1: and how you have to know about your world that

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Speaker 1: you came from, but also the worlds that you're transversing

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Speaker 1: and the going back and forth and what that toll is.

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Speaker 1: I started out writing little stories about her, and she

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Speaker 1: was like, you know, in an exercise class, but.

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Speaker 2: The you know, the only one with big boobs. And

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Speaker 2: then I was like, this is a real character.

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Speaker 1: One day was on my way into work and I

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Speaker 1: was reading this book called Battle for Paradise about disaster

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Speaker 1: capitalists in Port le Nico after Hurricane Maria. Just all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden, I was like, Ugh, here's the loose plot.

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Speaker 1: She's a wedding planner, she steals from her clients, and

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Speaker 1: she's sending money to her mother who's funding a revolution.

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Speaker 1: That was the first version of the idea.

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Speaker 2: The great part.

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Speaker 1: About doing stuff after your forties is I don't know

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Speaker 1: how to put it. It felt very low risk. I was like,

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Speaker 1: I'm just gonna write what I want to write, you

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Speaker 1: know what I.

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Speaker 2: Mean, Like, you just don't really give a.

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Speaker 3: You don't, You just don't. So I left New York.

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Speaker 1: I gave up my rent stabilized apartment to go to

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Speaker 1: graduate school and get my MFA. At forty two years

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Speaker 1: old at the University of Iowa Writers' Workshop.

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Speaker 2: You're not only dealing with moving from Brooklyn to Iowa,

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Speaker 2: but also being an older Latina. And I'm just wondering.

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Speaker 2: You talk about it as being a kind of culture shock,

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Speaker 2: age shock, geographic shock, and that's for a tough woman

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Speaker 2: who's kind of seen a lot. So what was that

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Speaker 2: like for you? In the beginning?

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Speaker 1: It was really terrifyingly lonely, and I think I hadn't

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Speaker 1: realized how much I relied on like my community. I mean,

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Speaker 1: like the woman that does my dry cleaning, like the

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Speaker 1: bartender at my local. All of these people are like

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Speaker 1: part of my little uh mister Rogers neighborhood, miss Gonzales' neighborhood,

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Speaker 1: if you will.

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Speaker 2: And it's like, well, where do we grocery shop? Walmart?

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Speaker 1: Everything that had been tiny became like box sort of.

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Speaker 1: And then also the lack of just seeing people that

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Speaker 1: was the biggest shock. And then I think it was

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Speaker 1: me figuring out how to be with my classmates, because

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Speaker 1: they were all wonderful. But I was like, it's a

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Speaker 1: two year program at forty two.

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Speaker 2: Two years feels like a blink of an eye, you know.

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Speaker 1: Then you're there with some insanely talented people, but they're

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Speaker 1: like twenty four and it's like about making friends, and

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Speaker 1: I was like, well, what can you do? I was like,

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Speaker 1: you can make instant pot oroskauelas, and you can afford

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Speaker 1: some wine and invite your classmates over just let them talk.

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Speaker 1: That was like hosting became my way of finding my

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Speaker 1: little place in the world. So I was like the

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Speaker 1: dah of the program to be totally hot special.

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Speaker 2: So you became a thea in Iowa. Gotcha, Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: became the Thia in Iowa. So Puerto Rico is a

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Speaker 2: central part of the story of Olga Dyed dreaming. Puerto

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Speaker 2: Rican activism on the island in New York is long

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Speaker 2: legacy of that kind of activism. And you've talked a

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Speaker 2: lot about wanting to get certain points across and using

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Speaker 2: the fiction writing as in your words, kind of a

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Speaker 2: trojan horse because you're bringing in older Latinas who are entrepreneurial,

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Speaker 2: who are code switching if we're going to use that

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Speaker 2: term that we didn't create, but you know, basically moving

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Speaker 2: in multiple worlds. So in your words, what do you

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Speaker 2: think that the novel is really about.

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Speaker 3: I think it's about resilience.

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Speaker 1: I think that that is the story of Olga and

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Speaker 1: her brother, but I also think it's the story of

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Speaker 1: Puerto Rico. I think it's the story of working class

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Speaker 1: New Yorkers. Is like, there is resilience and inability to

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Speaker 1: allow your joy to be stolen. I wanted to pay

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Speaker 1: tribute and homage to like all of the Latinas that

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Speaker 1: I know when you leave home, the courage that that takes,

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Speaker 1: but also the traumas that you're going to engage in

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Speaker 1: in order to like pursue this thing and also maybe

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Speaker 1: question it. But how that makes you resilient and you're

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Speaker 1: going to get knocked down, You're going to have to

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Speaker 1: get back up.

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Speaker 2: You'll always get back up. You decide to kind of

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Speaker 2: also delve into a topic that you know really well,

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Speaker 2: which is Brooklyn. You're like, yeah, one hundred and fifty

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Speaker 2: percent in Brooklyn.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, I'm the most confident I am is

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Speaker 1: that I'm Brooklyn.

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Speaker 2: But the reality of Brooklyn right now is gentrification. So

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Speaker 2: this Brooklyn of shiny glass, hipster coffee shops everywhere, it

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Speaker 2: is something that you deal with. You deal very clearly

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Speaker 2: with the issue of gentrification. And so on the one hand,

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Speaker 2: you're like one hundred percent saying I'm Brooklyn, I'm not moving,

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Speaker 2: this is my space. You're also documenting in novel form

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Speaker 2: that this is it is in fact, incredibly challenging to

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Speaker 2: be Latino or Latina and be able to stay in Brooklyn.

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Speaker 1: One of the themes of the book is this kind

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Speaker 1: of idea of dual diasporas. There were so many new

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Speaker 1: agains growing up that never got to go to the island,

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Speaker 1: your family didn't have money to go. You feel so like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: this is my culture, this is where I'm from, And

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Speaker 1: what is happening is that they're very parallel colonialism and

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Speaker 1: the powers of urban development. It's a lot of the

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Speaker 1: same things happening on the island now that are happening

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Speaker 1: in Brooklyn now, and it's causing a next diaspora where

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Speaker 1: people can't afford to stay. In that sense, that's how

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Speaker 1: I sort of saw those two things as parallel and related,

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Speaker 1: but separately. I wrote this book quite fast. It's long,

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Speaker 1: and I wrote it in a year and half. That year,

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Speaker 1: I had the privilege of being a student, but I

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Speaker 1: felt like I was like writing like my life depended

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Speaker 1: on it because I felt like I was I'm racing

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Speaker 1: against time because every month it feels like a different Brooklyn.

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Speaker 2: It's really heartbreaking to me.

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Speaker 1: And then at the same time, I have changed class

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Speaker 1: circumstances in my adult life from when I was a kid,

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Speaker 1: and I have the privilege to go to these a fancy,

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Speaker 1: bougie French restaurant that opened up down the street, and

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Speaker 1: so I live in constant conflict. To be completely honest.

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Speaker 1: I just started writing a column for The Atlantic. It's

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Speaker 1: called Brooklyn Everywhere, and it's literally ninety percent of the

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Speaker 1: time just me being like, oh my god, I hate myself.

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Speaker 2: Like I think that many Latinas and Latinos will be

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Speaker 2: able to identify with that sense, because things are changing

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Speaker 2: for us too, and we have to understand we are

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Speaker 2: moving into privilege too, and so what does that mean?

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Speaker 2: Because also so many of us are so deeply denied

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Speaker 2: the most basic form of humanity and how can we

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Speaker 2: do both at the same time, Which is why it's

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Speaker 2: interesting that your novel where there's so much activity and entrepreneurialship,

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Speaker 2: even Olga, you know, being kind of her own business self,

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Speaker 2: but also the backdrop is Hurricane Maria. When did you realize,

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Speaker 2: like loow, Hurricane Maria. It's definitely going to be a

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Speaker 2: part of.

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Speaker 1: This from the very beginning, and I remember being in

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Speaker 1: my apartment in Iowa. I was watching the footage from

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Speaker 1: before people lost cell service of the hurricane, and then

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Speaker 1: watching footage months after no lights, like having no usable

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Speaker 1: drinking water, and the idea that this is a hot

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Speaker 1: news story and then it goes away. I just felt

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Speaker 1: like I need people to realize that this is real life,

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Speaker 1: but also the idea that the story then is actually

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Speaker 1: of agency and not victimhood.

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Speaker 3: And I think that that was very important to me.

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Speaker 2: So when you talk about kind of the issues that

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Speaker 2: you bring up in your novel, gentrification, colonialism, agism, agency, yes, feminism,

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Speaker 2: Latina independence, Puerto Rican independence, people might be like, wait,

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Speaker 2: and then there's going to be a television show, So

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Speaker 2: how did that happen?

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Speaker 1: I love films, but I thought this would need to

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Speaker 1: be a show because it's a lot happening in the book.

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Speaker 1: So I'd always thought that this was a possibility, and

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Speaker 1: I wanted this to get as large of an audience

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Speaker 1: as possible, if for no other reason, to have worthy

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Speaker 1: go be part of a national conversation.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: But when it came time to sell the rights, I

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Speaker 1: was told, you know, it'll be much faster and better

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Speaker 1: if we do it without you attached, because you've never

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Speaker 1: screenwritten before. People don't like to work with novelists. And

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Speaker 1: I said, well, it's ten am. If by six you

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Speaker 1: can come back to me with another middle aged New

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Speaker 1: Reagan who will write this, then I'll bow out whatever. Well,

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Speaker 1: it was as long as I feel like they're cool,

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Speaker 1: and two hours later they were like, let's just go

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Speaker 1: out with you attached, and so like, I don't know

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Speaker 1: that my thirty year old self would have had the

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Speaker 1: guts to do that.

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Speaker 2: But it was less.

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Speaker 1: About wanting to forge a new career in television than

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Speaker 1: it was like about wanting to get this as right

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Speaker 1: as possible and feeling that it was possible and that

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Speaker 1: I could do it. And so I do think my

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Speaker 1: wedding planning brain has helped a lot, because you like,

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Speaker 1: really like it's like you're used to sort of talking

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Speaker 1: to people. It's been a lot of problem solving and

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Speaker 1: I will say I cannot get over the people that

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Speaker 1: this project's attracted. And I think because ultimately it's a

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Speaker 1: story about family and these characters and this brother and sister,

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Speaker 1: and because they're so real, it's actually so entertaining.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: So, so Chi you have these multiple perspectives, not only

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Speaker 2: because you're Latina, but also because you're working class. There's

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Speaker 2: not many who can say, well, you know, I have

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Speaker 2: parents who are socialists activists in the United States. But

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Speaker 2: at the same time, you know, you're in the Ivy

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Speaker 2: League and dealing with major publishing houses and now you

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Speaker 2: know a TV show. Yes, from a structural place, though

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Speaker 2: we're still having to pretty much fight. Yep, there's a

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Speaker 2: larger critique. How do you see that larger structural critique

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Speaker 2: which is really one that you've you were raised in

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Speaker 2: because your parents were political activists challenging capitalism.

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Speaker 1: What I think a lot about is a barrier to

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Speaker 1: entry and also breaking molds. So I had to raise

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Speaker 1: myself for like twenty years in like kind of the

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Speaker 1: bourgeois norms of society to figure out a way to

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Speaker 1: kind of do something more creative and find the space

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Speaker 1: to do that. But when I think about barriers, I

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Speaker 1: think how I was very interested in the arts, and

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Speaker 1: I was interested in all these things, and the idea

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Speaker 1: is how do I find a job that will pay

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Speaker 1: back these loans? And I think the barrier is kind

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Speaker 1: of put up in terms of what can I pursue

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Speaker 1: and where what are things that I'm interested in? So obviously,

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Speaker 1: like I think structurally a student debt is a giant

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Speaker 1: part of it. But I also think on the other side,

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Speaker 1: we need to be encouraging other Latinos and Latinos to

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Speaker 1: take more avant garde paths towards what they're doing. The

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Speaker 1: upside of not having stayed married and not having had

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Speaker 1: kids when I was married was that I could just

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Speaker 1: kind of pack up and go to Iowa at forty two.

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Speaker 3: But there are other people. Maybe their kids.

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Speaker 1: Are grown now and there's a thing burning in their heart,

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Speaker 1: and how do we tell that person? Maybe you didn't

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Speaker 1: do this before, but come on. In everything that I

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Speaker 1: know about life I learned from wedding planning. I know

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Speaker 1: how to manage difficult people. I know how to read

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Speaker 1: a human being. I know how to do a budget.

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Speaker 1: I know how to negotiate a contract. You have transferable skills.

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Speaker 1: And it's an intimidation tactic when people make it seem

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Speaker 1: as though, oh, you've never written a screenplay before. And

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Speaker 1: it's like, at some point, if you know how to

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Speaker 1: write dialogue, you can write dialogue. If you think you

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Speaker 1: can do it, just try it. The first act isn't

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Speaker 1: your last act. And I think particularly there's so many

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Speaker 1: wonderful LATINX experiences that are just waiting to bubble up.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining me on lat You

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Speaker 2: know what, USA, This was so much fun. Thank you.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, it's too much fun. Too much, man,

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Speaker 2: This episode was produced by Patricia Subran. It was edited

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Speaker 2: by Nitra Bonshahi and mixed by gabriel A Bayaz and

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00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:27,480
Speaker 2: JJ Carubin. The Latino USA team includes Andrea Lopez Cruzado,

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Speaker 2: Marta Martinez, Daisy Contreras, Mike Sergeant, Julieta Martinelli, Victori Estrada,

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00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:37,480
Speaker 2: Rinaldo Reanos, Junior Alejandra Selasad and Julia Rocha, with help

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Speaker 2: from Raoul Perez. Our director of engineering is Stephanie LAbau.

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Speaker 2: Our senior engineer is Julie Russo. Our digital editor is

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Speaker 2: Luis Luna. Our fellows are Elisa Ena, Monica Morales and

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Speaker 2: Andrew Vignardis. Our theme music was composed by San Rovinos.

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Speaker 2: I'm your host and executive producer Marie jo Posa. Join

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Speaker 2: us again on our next episode and in the meantime,

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Speaker 2: look for us on all of your social media and

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Speaker 2: remembers see you on our next episode. Bye.

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Speaker 4: Latino USA is made possible in part by New York

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Speaker 4: Women's Foundation. The New York Women's Foundation funding women leaders

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00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 4: that build solutions in their communities and celebrating thirty years

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00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 4: of radical generosity, The Ford Foundation working with visionaries on

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Speaker 4: the front lines of Social Change Worldwide and the John D.

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Speaker 4: And Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation.

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Speaker 2: How why, well that was Benito and just buying her