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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling.

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Speaker 2: True crimes, and I weigh in using modern forensic techniques

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Speaker 2: to bring new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Kate, how are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well, except I've been sort of tortured by

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Speaker 1: this story that we've been talking about so much, about

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Speaker 1: Joan Rish outside of Boston in nineteen sixty one, who's

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Speaker 1: gone missing. I've been thinking about it, actually a lot,

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Speaker 1: just because she is like so many women who I

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Speaker 1: know now, who was just at home trying to take

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Speaker 1: care of her kids, and then all that's left is

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Speaker 1: her blood, and so I've been really thinking about, gosh,

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Speaker 1: what could have happened to this woman? Have you been

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Speaker 1: thinking about this case?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, of course I'm thinking about the case.

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Speaker 2: I pulled up the crime scene imagery. I've got some

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Speaker 2: more thoughts, you know, about the case. But you kind

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Speaker 2: of left me in a lurch with some blood being found,

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Speaker 2: and I believe it was the master bedroom as well

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Speaker 2: as a trail out to her car, So I kind

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Speaker 2: of want to know more about that, okay.

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Speaker 1: And then we still haven't even talked about Jones' background

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Speaker 1: and if any of this could be connected to her life.

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Speaker 1: So just is a really really fast recap. October twenty fourth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty one. We're in Lincoln, Massachusetts, which is a

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Speaker 1: nice suburb of Boston. She's a thirty year old homemaker

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Speaker 1: who just goes missing, and all that's left is this

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Speaker 1: bloody scene, very confusing scene, I think in the kitchen

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Speaker 1: with the phone pulled out and it looks like there's

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Speaker 1: been some violence. She's missing. She has a husband who's

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Speaker 1: out of town, Martin, and then she has a four

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Speaker 1: year old daughter, Lillian, and a two year old son, David,

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Speaker 1: who David sounds like was in the crib the whole time.

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Speaker 1: You had mentioned in the last episode seeing I think

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Speaker 1: they labeled maybe some underwear and some overalls that clearly

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Speaker 1: was David. He must have just been in his diaper

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Speaker 1: and nothing else. Up in the crib, he's crying. The

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Speaker 1: neighbor doesn't know what's going on. The police come and

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Speaker 1: they start, of course investigating, and I think it just

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Speaker 1: must have been daunting to them to see all of

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Speaker 1: the blood that was happening in the kitchen. And then

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Speaker 1: they want to investigate, of course the rest of the house,

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Speaker 1: which is where I sort of left you dangling here.

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Speaker 1: So what they find with the rest of the house

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Speaker 1: is there are drops of blood upstairs, just drops in

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Speaker 1: Joan and Martin's bedroom there are only about I'm going

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Speaker 1: to get specific here, eight drops which range in size

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Speaker 1: from one eighth of an inch to a quarter of

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Speaker 1: an inch. And there are also two drops of blood

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Speaker 1: in the homes upstairs, whole way at the top of

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Speaker 1: the staircase, which are about one eighth of an inch

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Speaker 1: in size. Lots of blood in the kitchen, I mean

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Speaker 1: from my point of view, and then some ten drops

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Speaker 1: maybe upstairs. What does that mean.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's very nebulous just off the bat, but when

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Speaker 2: you start talking about dripped blood, that tends to suggest

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Speaker 2: that you have an injury. Let's say you've got a

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Speaker 2: cut finger or a bloody nose, and you just have

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Speaker 2: blood that is dropping from the injury onto the floor.

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Speaker 2: If you have an individual with that type of injury,

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Speaker 2: the drips indicate the movement. But right now, absent any

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Speaker 2: more information, I can't say if that movement is going

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Speaker 2: to the bedroom. I can't say that it's coming out

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Speaker 2: of the bedroom. It just indicates movement by somebody who

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Speaker 2: has a bleeding injury. Or if you happen to have

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Speaker 2: a weapon with a lot of blood, there's blood dripping

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Speaker 2: off that weapon, but that tends to slow down rapidly

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Speaker 2: versus having an actual injury where you have a constant

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Speaker 2: flow of blood. But it indicates that the person who

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Speaker 2: has that injury is mobile, is conscious, is able to

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Speaker 2: move through the house. But I don't know anything. I

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Speaker 2: can't extrapolate anything more than that. Right now, here.

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Speaker 1: Comes some more interesting details. You've got that blood upstairs,

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Speaker 1: and then the police find what they consider to be

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Speaker 1: a trail of blood that starts from the kitchen and

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Speaker 1: goes outside toward Jones car. Joan has a nineteen fifty

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Speaker 1: one Chevy Sedan. It is about twenty feet from the house.

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Speaker 1: No one's been in her car. They don't find anything

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Speaker 1: out of the ordinary, but this is what they say.

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Speaker 1: There is more blood outside. It's not a huge concentration

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Speaker 1: of blood, but it starts in the kitchen and then

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Speaker 1: abruptly stops in the driveway, very close to her car,

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Speaker 1: which is in the driveway. And they said the blood

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Speaker 1: stains outside, though, are very small. Two are found just

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Speaker 1: outside the home side entrance on the cement walkway, and

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Speaker 1: four separate stains are found on Jones's car. One of

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Speaker 1: these is two inches long and on the center of

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Speaker 1: her trunk. There's also two one inch stains on the

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Speaker 1: car's right rear fender. Then there's a one inch stain

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Speaker 1: on the left side of the car's hood. So is

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Speaker 1: this Joan or is this the offender who got hurt

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Speaker 1: in this process?

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Speaker 2: Can't tell without actually doing some typing on those stains.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'm looking at the photo that you provided

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Speaker 2: last week of Joan's car parked in the driveway, and

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Speaker 2: it's not parked up by the garage. It's you know,

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Speaker 2: appears that there's a good maybe thirty feet from the

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Speaker 2: front of Joan's car to the garage itself. Of the house,

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Speaker 2: so it's kind of parked on the driveway away from

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Speaker 2: the house. Can't see the blood stains that you are

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Speaker 2: describing on the vehicle, but it's you know, its hood

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Speaker 2: is facing the house, and then the trunk is probably

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Speaker 2: facing the street. So these are significant stains. And one

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Speaker 2: of the observations that I had made from the kitchen

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Speaker 2: is there is also blood drops within the kitchen in

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Speaker 2: addition to the blood pool the smears, the contact transfers.

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Speaker 2: You know, this could be Joan, it could be the

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Speaker 2: offender who got injured in an interaction with Joan. Right now,

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Speaker 2: there isn't enough information to be able to say one

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Speaker 2: way or another unless we type those stains and figure

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Speaker 2: out is it Joan, and then is she conscious and

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Speaker 2: she's moving around, or do we have a herd offender

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Speaker 2: that's moving around or somebody that is transporting Joan. You know,

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Speaker 2: I've seen this where somebody is killed inside a house

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Speaker 2: and then as they're moved, they leave a dripped pattern

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Speaker 2: from their body from their injuries, and then that drip

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Speaker 2: pattern all of a sudden stops on the driveway when

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Speaker 2: they are placed into a vehicle. So that's one of

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Speaker 2: the things I'm assessing is could Joan have been killed

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Speaker 2: inside this house and carried out of the house and

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Speaker 2: she's dripping and then ultimately she's placed in a vehicle, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: or somehow she's you know, wrapped up and is no

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Speaker 2: longer free to drip. Don't know right now.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so now we aren't sure with these little bits

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Speaker 1: of blood, do you have any has your theory developed

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Speaker 1: at all at this point? I know we don't have

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Speaker 1: a ton of information, but you know, there's some other

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Speaker 1: weird things that happen, and there's lots of speculation based

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Speaker 1: on Joan's background. But you know, I'm just wondering what

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Speaker 1: you think at this point.

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Speaker 2: Right now, I can't draw a conclusion as to what's

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Speaker 2: happening with the blood. The dripped blood trails inside the

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Speaker 2: house from the bedroom or or outside. And looking at

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Speaker 2: this crime scene, with the various types of blood patterns,

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Speaker 2: where the blood patterns are located at the smears, contact

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Speaker 2: transfers some of the dripped blood, this does not look

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Speaker 2: like a stage crime scene to me at all. This

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Speaker 2: looks like a legitimate crime scene. Stage crime scenes are

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Speaker 2: usually very obvious. Joan is bleeding significantly inside this house,

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Speaker 2: she's on the floor. There are blows to pooled blood sources.

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Speaker 2: There is movement with you know, the contact transfer that's

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Speaker 2: you know, two feet up on the wall, as well

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Speaker 2: as you know, a place where likely ahead would be

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Speaker 2: laying in the corner. I mean, all of this is

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Speaker 2: entirely consistent with acts of violence being inflicted on Joan

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Speaker 2: inside this kitchen. I know there's thoughts that maybe Joan

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Speaker 2: is staging her own death and wandering away, and this

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Speaker 2: is where, okay, the victimology does come into play, but

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Speaker 2: the physical aspects of this crime scene just look too

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Speaker 2: authentic to my eye, you know, And I think I

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Speaker 2: have some authority to be able to say that to go,

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Speaker 2: you know what, Joan got hurt inside this kitchen. Now,

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Speaker 2: could she have survived and wandered away, sure, But would

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Speaker 2: Joan have left David or two year old in the

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Speaker 2: crib unattended? You know what is what is Joan's victimology like?

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Speaker 2: So that's where I think it's the next step. It

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Speaker 2: would just take a lot, and I'm sure you're going

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Speaker 2: to have some zinger for me down the road, but

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Speaker 2: right now, it would take a lot for me to

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Speaker 2: change my opinion about this crime scene.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk about weird stuff. They find a coat

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Speaker 1: hanger on top of her car. There's no blood inside

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Speaker 1: the car. There's no indication that anybody tried to get

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Speaker 1: in the vehicle around the time when Joan went missing.

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Speaker 1: So the coat hanger will eventually lead to the thought

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Speaker 1: of a botched abortion. The coat hanger, to me, was

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Speaker 1: more like somebody trying to get into the car to

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Speaker 1: take the car, but her keys are in her purse,

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Speaker 1: which is in the kitchen.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to give you a third possibility. I

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Speaker 2: think it's possible that the offender has some obvious bloodstains

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Speaker 2: on him or his clothing. And I'm using the term

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Speaker 2: heat kind of generically in this sense, because don't know,

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Speaker 2: and grabbed some item. Let's say it's a male offender

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Speaker 2: grabs something of Martin's out of the closet, and he

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Speaker 2: puts that item of clothing on to cover up the

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Speaker 2: obvious stains. This is why there could be a dripped

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Speaker 2: blood trail going up to the master bedroom in order

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Speaker 2: to be able to access the adult male's clothing. And

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Speaker 2: then as this person is leaving, they just leave the

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Speaker 2: coat hanger on the car.

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Speaker 3: This is a possibility, So we think there is definitely

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Speaker 3: a possibility that the offender injured himself and these are

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Speaker 3: his blood drops.

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Speaker 1: Where is Joan Pullets between two pm and three, let's

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Speaker 1: say conservatively three point thirty in the afternoon, There's an

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Speaker 1: hour and a half window in the middle of the

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Speaker 1: day with a neighbor right across the street. Who does

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Speaker 1: this and where did they take this woman? If that's

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Speaker 1: what happened, in what car?

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Speaker 2: Where? That is a big mystery. Now. I haven't had

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Speaker 2: a chance to see the layout of this house, the neighborhood.

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Speaker 2: What kind of searching did they do? You know? Because

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Speaker 2: you have been pulled out into the backyard and hidden,

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Speaker 2: and then the offender comes back later and grabs her

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Speaker 2: body and then really disposes of it. There's so many

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Speaker 2: variables there. I'm not ruling out the possibility of Joan

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Speaker 2: walking away from this, but I'm skeptical.

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Speaker 1: Of that right now, Why don't you go back to

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Speaker 1: your photo document because I didn't really give you a

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Speaker 1: chance to look at Exhibits two and three, which are

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Speaker 1: her car and that might in the house, and that

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Speaker 1: might give you a little bit of an indication of

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Speaker 1: what we're working with. It's not secluded, but it's not

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Speaker 1: as it's not my house, which is right on the streets.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it looks like you could be a little

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Speaker 1: sneaky if you look at those two photos.

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Speaker 2: Yes, you know, and that was somewhat of the impression

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Speaker 2: I got as I scrolled through quickly last week. But

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Speaker 2: to describe for our listeners, I'm looking at a photo

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Speaker 2: of the house that's taken from the driveway. This house

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Speaker 2: is set back from the street. I can't even see

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Speaker 2: where the street is. I can see Jon's car parked

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Speaker 2: in the driveway facing the house, and the photo is

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Speaker 2: taken from the dry you know, behind the driver's side

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Speaker 2: trunk of the car. However, there are large trees that

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Speaker 2: appear to be surrounding much of Jones's house. It appears

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Speaker 2: that there would be limited visibility at various spots along

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Speaker 2: the street or in the neighborhood of jones house. And

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Speaker 2: you know, with the distance away from the neighbors that

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Speaker 2: is a parent in this photograph. You know, this is

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Speaker 2: also where even if you had let's say, an audible scream,

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Speaker 2: if Jone's being attacked in that kitchen, would anybody have

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Speaker 2: heard it? This is not your typical kind of cookie

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Speaker 2: cutter neighborhood that you see in modern California, where you're

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Speaker 2: literally two feet away from your neighbor's house with a

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Speaker 2: fence in between. This looks more countryside, not quite farm,

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Speaker 2: but at least it kind of has spacing, like you

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Speaker 2: know what you see in some of these farming neighborhoods.

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Speaker 1: Definitely a lot more space than what we're used to.

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Speaker 1: In both of these photos, we don't even see another

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Speaker 1: house near it in both of the photos. This doesn't

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Speaker 1: look like a massive house, but it's two story. It

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Speaker 1: looks like it maybe has an attic. But speaking of screams,

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Speaker 1: let's go ahead and start talking about what witnesses say

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Speaker 1: or ear witnesses say. We've kind of gone through all

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Speaker 1: the forensics. I mean, our first entire first episode was

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Speaker 1: all forensics, very little set up. It was very quick.

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Speaker 1: We didn't know a lot about it. We haven't talked

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Speaker 1: about her, we haven't talked about any dynamics. But we

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Speaker 1: still have some investigative stuff that we have to deal with.

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Speaker 1: So I told you there's no evidence inside inside Joan's car,

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Speaker 1: So if somebody were trying to get into her car,

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Speaker 1: they didn't do it. They weren't able to get in,

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Speaker 1: but there's blood on the outside. There's this hangar, which

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Speaker 1: you know, I like your suggestion. Barbara Barker, who is

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Speaker 1: the neighbor at the center of this, who's in the

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Speaker 1: mother of Douglas and Lilliam, was at her house and

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Speaker 1: she walked her over. She said, somewhere around two ten pm.

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Speaker 1: So the last time we saw Joan was one fifty five.

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Speaker 1: So fifteen minutes later, after Joan left Lilian at the

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Speaker 1: neighbor's house, she heard Joan yell from across the street

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Speaker 1: at her house. She said, I thought this was a

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Speaker 1: good description. She said. It was a shouting type of noise,

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Speaker 1: not screaming or someone in anguish like she was mad

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Speaker 1: or trying to force somebody to do something. That's what

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Speaker 1: they heard. So there is a group of women playing bridge.

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Speaker 1: Who is a neighbor at the home of a neighbor

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Speaker 1: who's also you know, lives close by to Joan. They

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Speaker 1: also around that time heard what sounded like a woman yelling,

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Speaker 1: and the women talked with one another and one or

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Speaker 1: two said it sounded almost like a cat, But again

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Speaker 1: it wasn't a scream or somebody in pain. Then one

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Speaker 1: more thing. Barbara says that she saw Joan wearing a

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Speaker 1: tan trench coat in the driveway around two fifteen to

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Speaker 1: two twenty. She was running past her car toward the

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Speaker 1: street and appeared to be chasing something red, So not caring,

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Speaker 1: but chasing. I don't know if it was a ball

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Speaker 1: or what that was. So Barbara said she thought at

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Speaker 1: first that David was dressed in a coat and took

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Speaker 1: off running and Joan went after him. But there was,

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Speaker 1: you know, no obvious red clothing, toddler clothing anywhere around,

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Speaker 1: and David was dressed in a diaper at that point.

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Speaker 1: So the coat that Barbara sees Joan wearing is later

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Speaker 1: found hanging up in a closet in the house. But

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Speaker 1: there's a gray coat that's missing that Joan had also worn.

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Speaker 2: A lot.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I don't understand what's happening with this scene.

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Speaker 1: There are people who are hearing screams. And then Barbara

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Speaker 1: says she saw Joan chasing something at two fifteen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's tough, it is. That's also you know, trying

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Speaker 2: to you know, assess the veracity of Barbara's vision as

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Speaker 2: to what she could have seen from where she saw it.

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Speaker 2: She obviously knows Joan, she'd recognized Joan. Doesn't sound like

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Speaker 2: she was paying a lot of attention to this action.

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Speaker 2: She just looks up and sees us, you know, kind

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Speaker 2: of this flash and probably goes back to her normal

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Speaker 2: routine whatever she was doing. But this missing gray coat

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Speaker 2: that kind of matches up with the coat hanger on

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Speaker 2: top of the car. You know, there's no photos of

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Speaker 2: that coat hanger. Was this coat hanger a metal coat

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Speaker 2: hanger that was bent in a way in order to

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Speaker 2: try to you know, fish out the lock of the car,

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Speaker 2: or was just this hangar that was in its normal

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Speaker 2: configuration and set on top of the car. I don't

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Speaker 2: have that information. However, if there is this observation of

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Speaker 2: this missing gray coat, that strengthens my thought that somebody

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Speaker 2: put an item of clothing on in order to either

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Speaker 2: disguise themselves or to hide the bloody evidence that may

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Speaker 2: be on their person.

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Speaker 1: Well, the impression I get about the hangar is, you know,

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Speaker 1: the note I have is that even though it's weird

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Speaker 1: that the hanger is laying on top of the car,

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Speaker 1: it's not bent in a way. It's as if somebody

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Speaker 1: had just taken off a coat like you're saying, and

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Speaker 1: laid the hanger on top of the car. Nobody saw

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Speaker 1: her do that, But that's sort of one of the

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Speaker 1: many weird things that now we have to talk about

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Speaker 1: where people have seen things. Several of the neighbors are

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Speaker 1: home when Joan vanishes in this time again, that's like,

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Speaker 1: it's so confusing to me. If you are going to

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Speaker 1: try to take this woman or hurt her or assault her, whatever,

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Speaker 1: you're trying to murder her, this is the wrong time

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Speaker 1: to do it. I mean, on the one hand, I

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Speaker 1: guess you know, the husband's probably not at home, but

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Speaker 1: all these women are home. And it's said that between

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Speaker 1: two twenty when Barbara saw her in the driveway wearing

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Speaker 1: this trench coat and three forty five when Lillian returns home,

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Speaker 1: no one reports seeing or hearing anything out of the

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Speaker 1: ordinary other than what we talked about the yells, and

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Speaker 1: those all happened about two fifteen or so, and that

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Speaker 1: was it as far as people being able to say,

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Speaker 1: this is what happened at that house. Barbara says she

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Speaker 1: was chasing something red. We can't find anything red. With David.

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Speaker 1: That's all very confused, and I know what you're saying

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Speaker 1: is is, we don't know what Barbara really saw, but

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Speaker 1: we do know she would have recognized Joan.

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Speaker 2: But could she be mistaken? You know that part of

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Speaker 2: everything seems to be happening. You have two different ear

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Speaker 2: witnesses hearing a woman either shout or scream. Is that what.

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Speaker 1: The Yes, it was like it was a yell.

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Speaker 2: Yell. Okay, that's a good term. Okay, so a yell.

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Speaker 2: And then around the same timeframe, you have Barbara seeing

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Speaker 2: let's say an adult running after something outside right now,

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Speaker 2: could that have been Joan? You know, that's where it

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Speaker 2: would come down to the interview of Barbara. You know,

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Speaker 2: exactly how did you recognize that this was Joan? Or

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Speaker 2: did she just make an assumption it was Joan? These

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Speaker 2: kind of dynamic witness observations often get skewed, you know,

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Speaker 2: in your own bias kind of comes into play.

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Speaker 1: You're filling in the blanks, right your brain is filling

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Speaker 1: in the.

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Speaker 2: Blanks absolutely, So I'm I'm questioning what Barbara truly saw

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Speaker 2: and the fact that we have these other ear witnesses

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Speaker 2: around the same time hearing this woman yell. It's like, okay,

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Speaker 2: everything is happening at two fifteen. Something is going on there,

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Speaker 2: and this sounds almost like Joan is inside the house.

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Speaker 2: And then notice as somebody who shouldn't be in there.

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Speaker 2: Now you got the get out type of you know,

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Speaker 2: yell if you will, kind of this angry scenario. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I don't know right now. Obviously we have the issue

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Speaker 2: of the missing body again. I go back to how

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Speaker 2: authentic this crime scene looks as if Joan had been

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Speaker 2: attacked inside this crime scene, and then you have enough

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Speaker 2: fender moving around and somehow, some way getting Joan's body

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Speaker 2: out in a way without anybody seeing that.

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Speaker 1: Well, we did some checking. Maren looked into it very quickly.

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Speaker 3: For me.

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Speaker 1: Reports were that Joan was a Typo and all the

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Speaker 1: blood was typo. So I know that doesn't mean anything.

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Speaker 1: Our fender could be typo also, but at least it's consistent.

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Speaker 1: It is possible that all of this is only Jones

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Speaker 1: and that's it, which is part of Paul the reason

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Speaker 1: why this feeds into a very popular theory that this

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Speaker 1: is gone girl, that she faked it to get out

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Speaker 1: of this sort of you know, stagnant housewife lifestyle. And

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Speaker 1: you said yourself, there's not a lot of blood, there's

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Speaker 1: not as much as you know, I thought there was.

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Speaker 1: So what do you think about that theory.

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Speaker 2: When I say there's not a lot of blood, as

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Speaker 2: I explained in the first episode. You know, I've seen

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Speaker 2: many murder scenes, many homicide scenes, and you can have

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Speaker 2: a significant amount more blood in these types of cases. However,

382
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Speaker 2: there is enough blood and the types of patterns of

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Speaker 2: blood that I said I would be investigating this as

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Speaker 2: a homicide. It is significant enough. And the fact that

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Speaker 2: you have different types of blood patterns a stage crime scene.

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Speaker 2: I just do not see Joan throwing herself up against

387
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Speaker 2: the wall, seeing her punching into a bloody pool, you know,

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Speaker 2: being drug along on the floor out of that corner,

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Speaker 2: and then you know, laying on the floor for enough

390
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Speaker 2: period of time to form the blood pool and the

391
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Speaker 2: blood smears, and then then wandering around. You know, with

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Speaker 2: the direct blood, this is looking pretty legit to my

393
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Speaker 2: my eyes. I don't want because again, I know you're

394
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Speaker 2: going to probably throw a surprise at me. But right now,

395
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Speaker 2: it's just like the typo. Everything's typo means zero. You know,

396
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Speaker 2: they can't say anything about who's contributing that blood outside

397
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Speaker 2: of it's you know, they all have the same blood type,

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Speaker 2: and that's fifty percent of the population.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about some weird stuff. Three different drivers

400
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Speaker 1: report seeing a bloody days woman walking along two different

401
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Speaker 1: highways in Massachusetts on the day that Joan goes missing.

402
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Speaker 1: This is walkable from her house. No one jerks, no

403
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Speaker 1: one stops to help her. We don't know if this

404
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Speaker 1: is Joan. We don't know if it's separate women. I

405
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Speaker 1: cannot imagine it's separate women. It must be the same person.

406
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Speaker 1: But they said that one of these sightings takes place

407
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Speaker 1: at about two forty five a long Route two A,

408
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Speaker 1: which is only three hundred yards from the house. The

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Speaker 1: other two sidings are around three point fifteen and are

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Speaker 1: about five miles from the house on Route one twenty eight.

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Speaker 1: That would be a massive coincidence, would it not?

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Speaker 2: That seems like it. I mean, do the uh three

413
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Speaker 2: witnesses I'll give the same description of the woman, yep.

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Speaker 2: And how do they describe the woman?

415
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Speaker 3: Just?

416
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Speaker 1: I mean, the only details I have here days I

417
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Speaker 1: showed you the photo in there of her. She's beautiful,

418
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Speaker 1: she's very attractive. But I think everybody was driving so

419
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Speaker 1: fast they just noticed her demeanor, which was out of it,

420
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Speaker 1: completely out of it. But it sounds like the physical

421
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Speaker 1: descriptions had matched. So what does that mean?

422
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Speaker 2: You know, if she's looking that bloody in that dazed,

423
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Speaker 2: she's not doing this to herself. This is more like

424
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Speaker 2: she escaped and now she is just completely mentally not

425
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Speaker 2: she doesn't have her wits about her and she's wandering.

426
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Speaker 2: Now do you have a scenario where she just wanders

427
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Speaker 2: off the road and ends up dying somewhere, you know,

428
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Speaker 2: being exposed whatever it is, and just has never been found.

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Speaker 1: I have more information that is equally, if not more confusing. Okay,

430
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Speaker 1: So now we are deep into the investigation and they

431
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Speaker 1: are canvassing and talking to more neighbors. And I don't

432
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Speaker 1: know if Barbara picked up on this or not, but

433
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 1: a handful of people, including neighbors and the milkman, who

434
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,880
Speaker 1: I think is probably the best source, see a car

435
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 1: they had never seen before. It's a bluish gray Oldsmobile

436
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 1: and it was parked in the driveway just a couple

437
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 1: of days before Jone goes missing. And it's also there

438
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 1: the day she goes missing, at three twenty five. She

439
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,880
Speaker 1: if we think she's on the highway, is walking at

440
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 1: three point fifteen. This car is there at three twenty

441
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 1: five is when somebody notices it, and then the car

442
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 1: leaves the driveway fifteen minutes later around three point forty,

443
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,920
Speaker 1: when she is already on the highway. It is a

444
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 1: stolen car. They trace it back to a guy who

445
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 1: was not involved at all. It had been stolen and

446
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,159
Speaker 1: he had reported it stolen in Medford. We have no

447
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 1: idea who has that car. Martin didn't know anything about it,

448
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,120
Speaker 1: and nobody knew anything about it. It was a mystery car.

449
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 1: No one knew if it was a guy driving, or

450
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 1: what happened with it.

451
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 2: Well, I think that that probably argues against this woman

452
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:31,639
Speaker 2: that's being seen on the highway as being Joan. I

453
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:36,199
Speaker 2: would argue that that stolen vehicle, which that kind of

454
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:40,479
Speaker 2: amps up the suspicion of that vehicle being present Jon's

455
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:46,840
Speaker 2: driveway is the disposal vehicle that Joan was left inside

456
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 2: the house and then somebody came back and got her.

457
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 1: It's so weird. It's interesting because it's the window when

458
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,359
Speaker 1: Joan is unaccounted for. But after these drivers, right after

459
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 1: they see her walking on the highway. I had wondered

460
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,919
Speaker 1: if if she had been so badly hurt and left

461
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 1: and for some reason, whoever did this just I don't

462
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 1: know what he thought that let her leave it was

463
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:10,920
Speaker 1: a domestic kind of thing, and then went and got

464
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 1: her after she was reported on the highway. You don't

465
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 1: think it's weird. I mean, how many bloody women are

466
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,119
Speaker 1: out there at this time so close to her? I

467
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 1: don't understand. And people are very exact. I mean three

468
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 1: forty three twenty five. I guess people are looking at

469
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:26,679
Speaker 1: their watches and their nosey and they want to know

470
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,360
Speaker 1: what's going on. Or maybe it's the milkman who has

471
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 1: a very specific route. But everybody's pretty sure about the

472
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 1: timing on all of this, and I just don't understand

473
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 1: how this is working.

474
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 2: It's you know, but this is where real life, you know,

475
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:46,160
Speaker 2: when you work cases you run across which you just assumed.

476
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,879
Speaker 2: It can't be a coincidence, right, That happens all the time,

477
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 2: and so you know, in terms of explaining what's going

478
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 2: on in this case, with everything that you've told me

479
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 2: so far, I still go to my original theory, you know,

480
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 2: is that Joan was killed or incapacitated inside the house.

481
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 2: The offender is likely injured defender puts on some clothes

482
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,119
Speaker 2: and then comes back with the car, scoops up Joan's

483
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 2: body and leaves. I do leave open the possibility that

484
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:27,440
Speaker 2: Joan is so injured and dazed inside that kitchen that

485
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 2: she could have wandered out and is the woman that

486
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:37,160
Speaker 2: is being seen. But neither scenario, in my mind, indicate

487
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 2: that this was a thought out planned You know, Joan

488
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 2: is doing this in a way to try to disappear,

489
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,199
Speaker 2: It just doesn't add up that way. That to me,

490
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 2: is the least likely of the scenarios.

491
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,639
Speaker 1: I agree, it's the sexiest, but it's the least likely.

492
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 1: Let me tell you a little bit about Joan. So

493
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 1: she she's thirty years old and she was born in Brooklyn.

494
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,919
Speaker 1: Her parents both died in a house fire when she

495
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 1: was eight, so she was adopted by her aunt Alice

496
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 1: and Alice's husband, Frank. So this was pretty awful because

497
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,719
Speaker 1: Joan told Martin, her husband, when she was older, that

498
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 1: Frank had abused her. So this is her adopted father

499
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 1: slash uncle. Joan didn't say what the abuse was, but

500
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,159
Speaker 1: it was insinuated that it was sexual abuse. This is

501
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,880
Speaker 1: the relative I told you who they wanted to do

502
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 1: the blood type on to see if his blood matched,

503
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 1: and it didn't. He was not type. Oh that doesn't

504
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 1: necessarily mean anything, but that is a theory that goes

505
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 1: out there that this is some twenty years later or whatever,

506
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 1: Frank coming and something came up with Joan, and Joan

507
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 1: was going to spill the beans on this and Frank

508
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 1: came and killed her. But that's why Frank was investigated,

509
00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 1: and everything else is pretty standard. She meets Martin is

510
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 1: at Harvard Business School. She got a job with a

511
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 1: publishing company, and they seem to have a really nice life.

512
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 1: There is not much on her background. Frank does stand out, though,

513
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 1: her uncle, who she says was abusing her.

514
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, worthwhile investigating. You know, when you start talking about

515
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,959
Speaker 2: blood typing, I did this, you know, early on in

516
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 2: my career. I'd want to look at the analyst notes,

517
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 2: you know, and see how they did the typing. We

518
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 2: would grade the typing. You know, do you have because

519
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 2: when you're typing, you know, you have this antigen you know,

520
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 2: you basically are looking for this glutenation and it's where

521
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 2: you add the various blood typing components and you get

522
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 2: these cells that group together they kind of stick together,

523
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 2: and sometimes you can get them to stick together real strong,

524
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 2: and so it's like very obvious, Okay, this person's type A.

525
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 2: But sometimes a few of them stick together, and you go,

526
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 2: I think that's type A. How strong this segglutination is

527
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 2: and it can be a little bit iffy. So, you know,

528
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 2: if they eliminated this adoptive father or this uncle through

529
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 2: blood typing, I would say, yeah, likely he's not typo.

530
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 2: But I think there is still a possibility that that

531
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 2: blood typing done in nineteen sixty one was wrong, you know,

532
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 2: And if the evidence exists today, then just let's get

533
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 2: these swabs out, if they collected swabs or however they

534
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,719
Speaker 2: collected these various blood stains, and just do the DNA,

535
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 2: and I with what I'm seeing, I think you have

536
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 2: a good chance that you're going to have a thunder

537
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 2: DNA in this crime scene.

538
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 1: Well, let's go down a little bit of a victimology hole.

539
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 1: This is I did not really believe the gone girl theory,

540
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 1: but that is a prevailing theory on the internet, which

541
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 1: tells you this is a very recent theory. Okay, you know,

542
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,479
Speaker 1: the idea, of course, is that she's gone missing. How

543
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 1: could this happen. It's, as you had said, not enough

544
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: blood to say she's dead, and that she could have

545
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 1: walked off on her own. You know, they see this

546
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 1: woman whose days. So when asked, I think, well, why

547
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 1: would she want to do this? I think the answer is, well,

548
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 1: she probably wanted to run off with a lover or

549
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 1: escape the oppressive lifestyle of being a housewife in the

550
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties, which I get, except there's no proof of

551
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 1: any of that, or that she adored her kids. She

552
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 1: seemed to really love Martin. They didn't seem to have

553
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 1: any problems. But this is what's funny. There's a big

554
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 1: deal made about the fact that Joan checked out twenty

555
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:37,719
Speaker 1: five mystery books which at the library, which are talking

556
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 1: about murder and disappearances. But the author, Stephen Ahern, that

557
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 1: I told you about, he actually went back and did

558
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 1: a big review, and she had only checked out a

559
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: few of them, much smaller amount. And it doesn't really

560
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: matter anyway. I mean, I love mysteries, that doesn't mean

561
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 1: I'm going to gone girl myself.

562
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 3: You know.

563
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of boyfriends and husband very

564
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 2: nervous because they're seeing their wiser girlfriends reading all these

565
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 2: true crime books about murder, right.

566
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, definitely.

567
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't know if I would put any weight

568
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 2: on that whatsoever. And I you know, kudos to that author,

569
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 2: Steve Ahern, for actually doing the leg work and showing

570
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 2: you know, kind of the if you want to say,

571
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 2: you know, how much weight to put on that that

572
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 2: bit of information. I think when you start talking about

573
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 2: the online community, of course, there's a lot of debate

574
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 2: about all these various scenarios and how to assess these scenarios.

575
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 2: Part of maybe the issue is not necessarily having the

576
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 2: experience of going into a lot of homicide scenes and

577
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 2: being able to interpret what is going on in those scenes.

578
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 2: And I've got a fair amount of experience doing that,

579
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 2: well above the average person in law enforcement. And with

580
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 2: what I am seeing here and we're talking, she drops

581
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 2: off Lilian and Douglas back at Barbara's house at one

582
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 2: fifty five, and then you have the woman yell or

583
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 2: the female yell. You've got Barbara seeing Joan in a

584
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 2: coat at two fifteen. I mean, we were talking twenty

585
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 2: minutes and you've got all of this. If Joone's doing this,

586
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 2: she's doing you know, she's throwing herself into the wall

587
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 2: and cutting herself or somehow beating herself and wandering through. Yeah,

588
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 2: and she's doing this spontaneously. This just is not adding up.

589
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 2: And then of course we've got you know, the phone

590
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 2: that's been torn out. We've got a bloody fingerprint that

591
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 2: supposedly doesn't match Joan. Who is that? You know, if

592
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 2: they truly did eliminate all the possible sources of contamination,

593
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 2: that's an item of evidence that I put a lot

594
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 2: of weight on. It's her blood on the phone that's

595
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 2: been moved, and we have indications that you know, the

596
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 2: phone's been ripped off the wall. You've got the TV

597
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 2: stand that it was underneath where that phone was located

598
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 2: it at. You have the phone book that's been opened

599
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 2: up to the emergency services, and you have a bloody

600
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 2: fingerprint on the phone that's not Jones significant. You know.

601
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,719
Speaker 2: So I really really strongly like if I were to

602
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 2: be looking at this case, it I would say Joan

603
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 2: is dead and her body was removed. That is my

604
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 2: predominant theory, and my focus today would be trying to

605
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 2: find a Fender DNA either inside this kitchen with those blood.

606
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 2: You've got isolated blood drips, I mean This would be

607
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:35,759
Speaker 2: something that just stands out to a well versed crime

608
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 2: scene reconstructionist, DNA analyst. You have blood trails throughout the

609
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 2: house that you can't say as Joan or not Joe,

610
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 2: and you have the blood stains outside and on the car.

611
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:48,240
Speaker 2: Those are all target items, you know, So that latent

612
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 2: print and DNA on some of these isolated stains, that

613
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 2: would be the initial thrust of my forensic investigation of

614
00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 2: this case, and that likely would I think support theory

615
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 2: number one in my mind.

616
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 1: Okay, I wanted to throw out the idea of Martin

617
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 1: the husband, hiring somebody. He was thoroughly investigated. They had

618
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 1: no financial problems, they had all by all accounts, a

619
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 1: good relationship, no stress. He had really like nothing that

620
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 1: we can see to gain from her disappearance. There was

621
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,439
Speaker 1: no life insurance policy, he didn't have an affair. He'd

622
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 1: ended up getting married, but a long time from then,

623
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:31,360
Speaker 1: and then he died in two thousand and nine. So

624
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 1: my question would be who else would know when is

625
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,919
Speaker 1: the right time to do this? It happens right kind

626
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,800
Speaker 1: of perfectly. David's having a nap. I guess maybe when

627
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 1: he's waking up, But I guess somebody who's watching, maybe

628
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 1: somebody who's been stalking her, right, and then there's a

629
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:54,439
Speaker 1: stolen vehicle. But I'm just wondering if this would ever

630
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 1: be a higher It just feels like it's really risky.

631
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 1: Somebody would really have to have either been watching her

632
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 1: or had been told about what is happening in her house,

633
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 1: because it does feel a little isolated. I don't know,

634
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 1: just thrown it out there.

635
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,239
Speaker 2: No, I think it's a very real possibility whether the

636
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 2: offender whoever killed, or is hired, or would just happened

637
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,240
Speaker 2: to be inside this house for one reason or another.

638
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:20,800
Speaker 2: You know, that all just adds up with what I'm seeing.

639
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 2: I would not discount that as a possibility. It wasn't

640
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 2: done very well. And the reality is is that you know,

641
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:33,759
Speaker 2: these hitmen that get hired, there's very few true professionals

642
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:37,240
Speaker 2: out there. Good to know, Yeah, you know, there are people,

643
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,879
Speaker 2: for sure, And I think in my career, I've only

644
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 2: got one case, and it was not when I was active.

645
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 2: It was a case I did for a TV show,

646
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 2: Original investigator, you know, worked with the original investigator and

647
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:51,959
Speaker 2: went to the crime scene and looked at everything. I'm going, yep,

648
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 2: This is probably a pro based on the totality of

649
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:58,919
Speaker 2: everything that this killer was able to do. So most

650
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 2: of these hired hit men are just you know, somebody

651
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 2: who's willing to commit the crime and may have never

652
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 2: done something like this before. So that's I can't you know,

653
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 2: conclude anything looking at the crime scene, as are we

654
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 2: dealing with a hired hitman. I just think Joan was

655
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 2: confronted by somebody in that kitchen, try to get to

656
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 2: the phone, and then is now somehow being injured to

657
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 2: the point of having bleeding injuries of some type to

658
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 2: where you know, they can perform blood pools and contact transfers.

659
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 2: And then whether it's Joan or whether it's the offender,

660
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 2: there's dripped blood in the kitchen and throughout the house

661
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 2: ord I shouldn't say throughout, but at least up to

662
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,799
Speaker 2: the master bedroom. Then why why go to the master bedroom?

663
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:45,359
Speaker 1: I think that's what the police think too, So their

664
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: very best theory is, you know, when they talk to

665
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 1: Martin and he says she has no enemies, She's never

666
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 1: had a conflict with anybody. Everybody describes her as lovely,

667
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 1: very shy, very committed to her family. And he's the

668
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,960
Speaker 1: same way. So they just say they land on the

669
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 1: best theory they have, which was that she was stalked

670
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:12,280
Speaker 1: most likely and was the victim of a violent abduction,

671
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 1: which Martin says, I can't even believe that would happen.

672
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 1: But they think that when Martin was out of the

673
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 1: house the day that she went missing, that this was

674
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 1: somebody who had been watching or somehow knew. Maybe it

675
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 1: was like the milkman, not the milkman, but maybe somebody

676
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 1: who knew that Martin left every day. And the police

677
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:35,720
Speaker 1: believe it would have been very easy for the attacker

678
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:39,280
Speaker 1: to have wrapped Joan up in a great charcoal top

679
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 1: coat the one that's missing, and maybe with that hanger

680
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: on top of her car and carried her through the

681
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 1: woods onto Virginia Road, or he could have driven his

682
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:54,360
Speaker 1: own car into the driveway the Oldsmobile and carried her out.

683
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 1: I still don't know why there would be blood marks

684
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 1: on the outside of her car, unless maybe she was

685
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 1: grabbing it and fighting and left blood before he shoved

686
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:08,720
Speaker 1: her into the Oldsmobile, if that's what happened.

687
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 2: No, well, there's no photographs I can take a look

688
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 2: at of the blood marks on the car, but I

689
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 2: think the way you described him, it sounded like you

690
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:21,399
Speaker 2: had some dripped blood or a contact transfer. This could

691
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:23,759
Speaker 2: be just a matter of the body, you know, if

692
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 2: you're having it. Because this Jones car, this is a

693
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 2: single lane wide driveway, so Jon's car takes up the

694
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 2: width of this driveway. So if like let's say the

695
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,839
Speaker 2: stolen car is the disposal car, you could see where

696
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:41,279
Speaker 2: the offender is having to carry Joan past her car

697
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 2: in order to get out to the stolen car to

698
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:44,839
Speaker 2: put her in the trunk or wherever he puts her.

699
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 2: It's possible you could have some you know, drips off

700
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 2: of Jan's body. This is what we see sometimes when

701
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,240
Speaker 2: bodies are removed by the coroner's deputies or the death investigators.

702
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 2: So it's it's a form of scene contamination for us,

703
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,800
Speaker 2: or it could be the offender himself. He's got still

704
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 2: a bleeding injury. So it's so hard to say without

705
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:07,360
Speaker 2: looking at the photos. And there could be probably numerous

706
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 2: explanations for that. But I don't think I can say

707
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,280
Speaker 2: anything that, oh, it must be Joan touching the outside

708
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 2: of her car. I don't think that that is a

709
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 2: singular conclusion that could be made with the information that

710
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 2: we have.

711
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 1: Okay, one more theory. The investigators continue kind of pressing

712
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 1: you with Frank the adoptive father slash. I'm just going

713
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 1: to say uncle who she lived with, who it sounds

714
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 1: like was abusing her. That's what Joan said. So I

715
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:39,840
Speaker 1: told you the blood type didn't match. They start having

716
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 1: a discussion with Frank's now estranged wife, who is Jon's aunt.

717
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:49,320
Speaker 1: And in the month leading up to her disappearance, Frank

718
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:51,759
Speaker 1: had been trying to get his wife back to move

719
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:55,360
Speaker 1: back in, and Joan had been writing letters that the

720
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:57,919
Speaker 1: police had back and forth. This is just a month

721
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 1: before saying at age thirty, you don't know this, but

722
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:06,439
Speaker 1: your husband abused me. You cannot go back to him.

723
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 1: Do not do it. They gave him polygraphs. They were inconclusive.

724
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 1: We know how we both feel about polygraphs. But there

725
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 1: wasn't the blood type and they couldn't ever charge him.

726
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 1: But actually seems like that to me, seems like our

727
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,360
Speaker 1: best suspect rather than a random person. What do you

728
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:25,239
Speaker 1: think was.

729
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 2: He compared to the bloody print on the telephone did

730
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 2: not match. So, I mean, you have two forms of

731
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:35,240
Speaker 2: physical evidence not matching him. His fingerprints and his blood type. Yeah,

732
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 2: I definitely put a lot more weight on the fingerprint

733
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 2: evidence that they excluded him as being that bloody print

734
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:49,240
Speaker 2: less weight on the blood typing. I mean, obviously there's

735
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:53,359
Speaker 2: family history that leads to Jones victimology and why you know,

736
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 2: maybe Frank has a motive to make her disappear, but

737
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 2: right now the evidence is showing that.

738
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:03,840
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, letters are tricky because he could have easily

739
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 1: gotten a hold of those letters and read if his

740
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 1: wife kept them, and I'm sure she did. But you're right,

741
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 1: there's nothing against him, and it sounds like he had

742
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:13,360
Speaker 1: an alibi. I mean, we know how we feel about alibis.

743
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 1: They could be greater, they could not be right. But

744
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 1: this ends up being a case that, as I said,

745
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:22,759
Speaker 1: goes col goes unsolved. And there are i mean just

746
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:27,360
Speaker 1: lots of sightings of Joan Rish throughout the years. In

747
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty eight, there had been sightings as far away

748
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 1: as Chicago, and we're in Massachusetts when this happens. There

749
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 1: was one in a trailer park in Arizona. But nothing's

750
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:40,400
Speaker 1: ever come out of any of this. So we don't

751
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 1: have a body, we don't have any idea what happened,

752
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 1: and you've got two little kids who ended up with

753
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 1: no mother.

754
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:47,800
Speaker 2: And I'm assuming that this was a relatively high profile

755
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 2: case for the area.

756
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, just an enduring mystery.

757
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I will say, like with higher profile missing persons cases,

758
00:42:56,440 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 2: we often get dozens of, not hundreds of sidings. I've

759
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 2: even got a case where family had a false siding

760
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:09,399
Speaker 2: of their missing person and it wasn't this one women's sister. Unfortunately,

761
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:13,239
Speaker 2: their loved one was dead and had long had been

762
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 2: dead for a long time at that point. But you know,

763
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 2: so that's I kind of don't put any weight on

764
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:22,319
Speaker 2: the sidings of Joan after the case. Is that her

765
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 2: walking days, I mean, I think it's it's a remote possibility,

766
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 2: though I want to eliminate it. I really, I think

767
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 2: I agree with the authorities. Is that Joan was taken

768
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 2: out of the house, was wrapped in something, and was

769
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:38,799
Speaker 2: placed in a car and driven away.

770
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:40,320
Speaker 1: A car that had been stolen.

771
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:43,400
Speaker 2: So yeah, well that's kind of a clue.

772
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, what a sad case. I mean, this is just

773
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 1: a woman living her life. We don't know what happened,

774
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:53,839
Speaker 1: but we know that she was doing exactly what her

775
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:56,800
Speaker 1: family said she always did. Taking care of her kids, Yeah,

776
00:43:56,840 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 1: watching over them, being a good mom, taking them to appointments,

777
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:03,360
Speaker 1: doing everything. This is a nice house, doing everything that

778
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 1: she was supposed to be doing, a great wife, according

779
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 1: to Martin, and just in a flash, there's nothing to

780
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:13,280
Speaker 1: even bury of this woman, and that is so sad

781
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 1: to me.

782
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and for the family, that often is one of

783
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:20,840
Speaker 2: the most difficult things because they don't have that answer.

784
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 2: I've talked to family members of homicide victims and let's

785
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 2: say they've had a loved one and go missing. That's

786
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 2: tortuous because they don't know what has happened. And then

787
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 2: once they get the answer that the loved what has

788
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 2: been found and had been killed. As horrible as that

789
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 2: is for them, it's at least an answer.

790
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. Well, boy, this was a tough case.

791
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:45,759
Speaker 1: I think I just relate to this woman a lot.

792
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:48,440
Speaker 1: I'm so family oriented. I know you are too, and

793
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:51,239
Speaker 1: I just really felt for her family and felt for

794
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:55,720
Speaker 1: her whatever happened. Whatever happened was obviously very physically painful.

795
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:59,240
Speaker 1: I hope whatever else happened after that was very swift,

796
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 1: because this was is not a good ending for her.

797
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:04,399
Speaker 1: This is why I don't like unsolved cases. I need

798
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:07,440
Speaker 1: a conclusion. I mean, I am not delusional enough to

799
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:10,719
Speaker 1: think that she's in Cobbo right now hanging out. But

800
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 1: I like to know what happened, and I like to,

801
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 1: dang it, know that there's a bad guy that's been caught.

802
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 1: And we don't have either one of those in this case.

803
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 1: But I do like to throw you a cold case

804
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 1: bone every once in a while, because I know you

805
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:22,760
Speaker 1: like him so much.

806
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:26,399
Speaker 2: There's meat on the bone in this case. In terms

807
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:28,799
Speaker 2: of us, like if I were to open this up

808
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 2: as a case and I'm looking at it, I'm actually

809
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:36,759
Speaker 2: getting excited because I'm seeing things that I know can

810
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 2: be used to solve the case. And if they have

811
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 2: any of this evidence, and from nineteen sixty one, it's

812
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 2: possible every agency was different in terms of how wether

813
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 2: how well they process the crime scene from this era

814
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 2: to how long they stored the evidence too, if they

815
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 2: can even find the evidence. But if that, if this

816
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 2: evidence still exists with modern technology, it's a solvable case.

817
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:02,720
Speaker 2: If I'm assessing a case today that's that's this old

818
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 2: you know, part of it is, okay, what what was

819
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 2: the lead investigating agency? If there was a Lincoln Police Department.

820
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 2: Sounds like Lincoln, and it looks like based off of

821
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 2: her house photo, it's probably a relatively low populated area,

822
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:22,840
Speaker 2: you know, So it's possible that this was a local

823
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 2: sheriff would have taken on this case, or they reach

824
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:30,280
Speaker 2: out to the state to do it. And that's usually

825
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:33,320
Speaker 2: fairly easy to figure out what you start digging into

826
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:38,279
Speaker 2: the case itself, and that can be well, she never

827
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:40,520
Speaker 2: went to corner, so you don't have an autopsy report,

828
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 2: you know, but it's just a matter of you know,

829
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 2: figuring out the history and who would have had jurisdiction

830
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:48,399
Speaker 2: over this location and going from there.

831
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:53,280
Speaker 1: Okay, well, what a case? What a case? Next week

832
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 1: we are off. I deserve it. I don't know if

833
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:58,360
Speaker 1: you deserve it, but I deserve it. Do you deserve

834
00:46:58,400 --> 00:46:59,399
Speaker 1: it a week off?

835
00:46:59,440 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 3: Paul?

836
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:00,120
Speaker 1: I don't know.

837
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:02,719
Speaker 2: I don't know if I just over a week off.

838
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:04,719
Speaker 2: But I can see where you. I mean, you you

839
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 2: do such a great job telling the story. I don't

840
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 2: know how you do it. So yes, I can you

841
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 2: need a mental break, I do, you know, a little

842
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:14,920
Speaker 2: dandelion break, and then we can we can hit it

843
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:15,879
Speaker 2: hard when you come back.

844
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 1: How's that got it that sounds fantastic. Okay, we'll see you.

845
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 1: I'll see you in a couple of weeks.

846
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:26,279
Speaker 2: Sounds good, Kate, take care Zoo.

847
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:30,319
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for.

848
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:33,720
Speaker 2: Our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com

849
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 2: slash Buried Bones sources.

850
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emrosi.

851
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

852
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:45,200
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

853
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:47,799
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

854
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

855
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Daniel Kramer.

856
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:58,120
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

857
00:47:58,200 --> 00:47:59,360
Speaker 1: Buried Bones Pod.

858
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:02,360
Speaker 2: Its most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

859
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:04,400
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

860
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now, and

861
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's Cold Cases,

862
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:12,879
Speaker 1: is also available now