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Speaker 1: Hey, Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb. Into the vault we go once more

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Speaker 1: for dream Fall into the Dark, Part two, which originally

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Speaker 1: published six twenty twenty three. Please enjoy Welcome to Stuff

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Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name

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Speaker 2: is Robert.

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Speaker 3: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick.

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Speaker 2: In the last episode, we discussed the power of dreams

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Speaker 2: to impact the waking world, with a particular focus on

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Speaker 2: times and places where the mystique of dreams seems to

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Speaker 2: have held particular sway over prominent intellectual and or theological

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Speaker 2: circles in a given society. So you know, what does

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Speaker 2: it mean for a people when the gateway of prophetic

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Speaker 2: dream is open wider and what factors seem to contribute

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Speaker 2: to these upticks in dream fascination in particular. In the

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Speaker 2: last episode, we discussed European Romanticism in the eighteenth and

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Speaker 2: nineteenth centuries, as discussed by authors Lynn A. Struve and

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Speaker 2: Jennifer Ford in their respective works. In this episode, we're

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Speaker 2: going to continue looking at some of the times and

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Speaker 2: places that Struve singles out in her twenty nineteen book

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Speaker 2: The Dreaming Mind and the End of the Ming World,

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Speaker 2: drawing in additional sources as well. Now, I believe the

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Speaker 2: plan is to get into Struve's thoughts on the late

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Speaker 2: Ming Dynasty dream culture in part three of this series.

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Speaker 2: But to kick things off here, I thought we might

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Speaker 2: discuss another movement another time in place that she highlights,

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Speaker 2: and that is Quakerism of the mid seventeenth century, with

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Speaker 2: religious and political strife in England, pushing immigrants out, religious

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Speaker 2: dissenters out of England and into a new hotbed of

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Speaker 2: religious and political strife in the New World. Now, I

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Speaker 2: don't know. This is definitely one of those cases, and

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Speaker 2: this is going to continue to be the case with

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Speaker 2: some of the examples we draw on. Certainly we would

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Speaker 2: love to hear from anyone out there who has actual

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Speaker 2: roots in Quakerism. I know I have a cousin that

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Speaker 2: is a Quaker. So this is very quake Quakerism still

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Speaker 2: is very much alive, but we're going to be dealing

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Speaker 2: with mid seventeenth century Quakerism in particular. Here Struve points

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Speaker 2: out that the majority of Puritans of the time period

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Speaker 2: considered quake heretical. It rejected the traditional Puritan power structure

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Speaker 2: in favor of a meeting structure where anyone in the

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Speaker 2: group could openly share their own account of seeking God

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Speaker 2: through Christ. And accounts of dreams factored into these oral presentations,

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Speaker 2: and sometimes these were written down as well. Quaker dream

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Speaker 2: testimonials lost much of their prophetic qualities, but continued to

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Speaker 2: be important in to the nineteenth century.

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Speaker 3: So I tried to do some digging to learn a

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Speaker 3: bit more about the role of dreams in Quaker history

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Speaker 3: and the more general historical context, and I came across

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Speaker 3: a lot of references to what looks like a highly

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Speaker 3: relevant and well regarded academic book on the subject. It's

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Speaker 3: by Carla Jirona called Night Journeys, The Power of Dreams

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Speaker 3: in Transatlantic Quaker Culture, University of Virginia Press in two

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Speaker 3: thousand and four. I was not able to read this

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Speaker 3: book itself, but I read a couple of academic reviews

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Speaker 3: of it to get a sense of its arguments and

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Speaker 3: major themes. So one of the reviews I'm going to

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Speaker 3: reference was by Robert Cox in the Journal of the

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Speaker 3: Early Republic Winter two thousand and five, and the other

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Speaker 3: was by Michelle Lisa Tartar in the Journal of Quaker

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Speaker 3: Studies two thousand and seven. But before I get into

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Speaker 3: this book directly, I think it'd be good to do

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Speaker 3: a little bit of background on the Quakers. So the

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Speaker 3: Quakers are officially known as the Religious Society of Friends,

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Speaker 3: and this tradition was founded in England in the mid

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Speaker 3: seventeenth century by a man named George Fox. So I

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Speaker 3: was reading about him in a book exerpt published in

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Speaker 3: the New York Times by historian named James Walvin. The

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Speaker 3: book is called The Quakers, Money and Morals. And before

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Speaker 3: going any further, I just have to note a physical

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Speaker 3: detail Walten includes in the description of George Fox, which

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Speaker 3: is that he was described at the time as a

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Speaker 3: man with hair like rats tales.

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Speaker 2: I'm having trouble picturing that because rats tales don't really

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Speaker 2: look like hair hair. They are by their very nature hairless.

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Speaker 2: Maybe he had kind of like a wet look and

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Speaker 2: had kind of like white or grayish hair.

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Speaker 3: Perhaps it was an ambiguous evocation for me as well.

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Speaker 3: But I'll keep trying to picture it as we go on.

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Speaker 3: So George Fox was born in sixteen twenty four. He

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Speaker 3: was the son of devout Puritan parents in Leicestershire, which

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Speaker 3: is a city in the English Midlands. His father was

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Speaker 3: a somewhat wealthy we and in sixteen forty three George

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Speaker 3: Fox had an unpleasant experience seeing friends drinking alcohol at

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Speaker 3: a local fair, and so the teenage Fox, after this experience,

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Speaker 3: heard the voice of God Almighty telling him to leave home,

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Speaker 3: abandon his friends, abandon his family, and seek the truth.

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Speaker 3: And after this he spent several years a sort of itinerant,

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Speaker 3: just wandering the country with his Bible in hand, seeking

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Speaker 3: enlightenment of some sort, and apparently harassing local priests and

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Speaker 3: ministers along the way. One example is in sixteen forty

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Speaker 3: nine he was arrested and jailed for getting up in

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Speaker 3: the middle of a church service in Nottingham and arguing

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Speaker 3: with the minister about his interpretation of the Bible. Now,

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Speaker 3: in defining Fox's early preachings and the Quaker's early beliefs,

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Speaker 3: it's kind of interesting because several sources I've read mentioned

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Speaker 3: that they're more easily defined in opposition to other beliefs

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Speaker 3: than in the positive substance of themselves. But one thing

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Speaker 3: seems to be that Fox's theology developed to include a

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Speaker 3: belief in the necessity of inner spiritual rebirth. Sometimes this

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Speaker 3: is known as born again theology. It was very much

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Speaker 3: about having the inner light of God or the inner

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Speaker 3: light of Christ revealed within yourself and experiencing God directly.

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Speaker 3: And Fox also came to preach a message that was

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Speaker 3: basically against the institutional structure of Christianity. It seems. Fox's

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Speaker 3: unique thesis was that you do not need a church

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Speaker 3: or a congregation or a cleric to act as any

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Speaker 3: kind of intermediary or interpreter between you and God, that

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Speaker 3: you should interact with God honestly and directly on your

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Speaker 3: own terms.

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Speaker 2: And I think already we can see how this is

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Speaker 2: going to line up with the importance of dreams, the

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Speaker 2: idea that there's some sort of direct communication. We saw

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Speaker 2: that already with the example of Fox having heard the

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Speaker 2: voice of God. As we've been discussing already in this series,

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Speaker 2: there's this long standing human tradition of potentially interpreting dreams

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Speaker 2: as such as well.

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Speaker 3: That's right, so we will get there. But another thing

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Speaker 3: I should note before we move on is that this

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Speaker 3: is happening in England in the sixteen forties, which is

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Speaker 3: the same time as the English Civil War. Or directly

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Speaker 3: after the English Civil War in the interregnum period. And

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Speaker 3: this is a time of major change, political, social, cultural

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Speaker 3: upheaval in England. I want to read a brief passage

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Speaker 3: from Walven summarizing the cultural climate in England at the time.

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Speaker 3: Quote Fox was not alone in suffering turmoil in the

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Speaker 3: sixteen forties. The entire nation was racked by personal and

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Speaker 3: social agitations that had been whipped up by a bloody

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Speaker 3: and vengeful civil war. That decade and the interregnum years

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Speaker 3: of the sixteen fifties formed what Christopher Hill has described

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Speaker 3: as the greatest upheaval in English history. Old assumptions and beliefs,

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Speaker 3: old certainties were shattered by the convulsion of religious and

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Speaker 3: political freedoms, which had scarred most people in some way

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Speaker 3: or other. The traditional acceptance that all English people belonged

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Speaker 3: to the National Church and must worship as a matter

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Speaker 3: of obligation was destroyed forever. And another feature of this

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Speaker 3: period that Walvin notes is that this is a time

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Speaker 3: when there was sudden dissolution of the strict censorship laws

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Speaker 3: that had up until then controlled the printed word. There

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Speaker 3: was kind of a sudden explosion in different kinds of

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Speaker 3: materials that could be disseminated in print, including books and

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Speaker 3: tracts that advocated radical and unorthodox points of view in

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Speaker 3: civil and religious life. Now, the people around George Fox

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Speaker 3: when he was traveling and preaching in the sixteen forties

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Speaker 3: or sixteen fifties, these would mostly include members of the

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Speaker 3: Church of England, the mainstream Protestant church in England at

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Speaker 3: the time, and also Puritans, people who dissented from, or

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Speaker 3: at least wanted to reform the Church of England, largely

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Speaker 3: on the ground, sorry to oversimplify, but largely on the

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Speaker 3: grounds that it was not removed enough from its Roman

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Speaker 3: Catholic roots and not sufficiently based on Sola scriptura. Church

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Speaker 3: of England was not Protestant enough. Now, I mentioned that

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Speaker 3: Fox was jailed at least one time for interrupting a

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Speaker 3: church meeting in Nottingham. He was jailed other times, I think,

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Speaker 3: for blasphemy of various sorts. Fox made a lot of

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Speaker 3: people angry, but he also won a lot of converts,

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Speaker 3: if that's the right word. At least you could say

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Speaker 3: he persuaded a lot of people to see their relationship

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Speaker 3: with God in his way, and his movement spread rapidly

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Speaker 3: in England and also to the colonies in North America

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Speaker 3: in the sixteen fifties. In fact, the colony of Pennsylvania

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Speaker 3: was founded by William Penn, who was a wealthy English Quaker,

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Speaker 3: to serve as a safe haven for Quakers who were

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Speaker 3: sometimes viciously persecuted in England. Now, once again, it's sometimes

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Speaker 3: easier to say what Quakers don't believe than what exactly

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Speaker 3: they do believe. But though there's some variation, overall, Quakers

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Speaker 3: were known for rejecting hierarchy and rejecting the enforcement of

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Speaker 3: orthodoxy and religious matters, and they were also known, though

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Speaker 3: this might not have been a direct result of their theology,

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Speaker 3: they were known for at certain times, but not always,

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Speaker 3: having many members who supported radical social and political causes

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Speaker 3: such as pacifism, advocating for women's rights, and the abolition

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Speaker 3: of slavery. One thing that I think is worth noting

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Speaker 3: with relevance to the role of dreaming is the format

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Speaker 3: of Quaker religious meetings, which very often were just sort

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Speaker 3: of like gatherings of the religious society of Friends, the

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Speaker 3: Friends that would typically allow anyone to speak men and

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Speaker 3: women alike, rather than just having a minister sermonized top

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Speaker 3: down to the congregation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I believe streve mentions that of the various written

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Speaker 2: dream reports that would survive, a lot of these were

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Speaker 2: by women.

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Speaker 3: That's right. So that brings us back to a couple

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Speaker 3: of the reviews I wanted to talk about of that

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Speaker 3: book by Karla Girona, Night Journeys, The Power of Dreams

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Speaker 3: in Transatlantic Quaker Culture. Not only did early Quakers believe

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Speaker 3: that dreams contained genuine revelatory prophetic content, the culture of

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Speaker 3: Quakerism in the North American colonies was substantially downstream from

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Speaker 3: the contents of dreams, or what they might call night journeys.

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Speaker 2: I don't know why night journeys is is such a

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Speaker 2: cool term for dreams. I mean, it just ties in

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Speaker 2: with a lot of what we're talking about here. But

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Speaker 2: then it also sounds like it could be like an

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Speaker 2: eighties rock anthem. I don't know where the.

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Speaker 3: Dream warriors don't want to dream no more, except they

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Speaker 3: did want to dream more. They in fact, wanted to

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Speaker 3: dream quite a lot and discuss all their dreams. So

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Speaker 3: Cox sort of summarizes Jirona's point as quote, dreams are

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Speaker 3: not only models of culture, they are models for it,

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Speaker 3: and I think a way of understanding this better is

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Speaker 3: that while we today often think of dreams as simple

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Speaker 3: reflections of individual internal psychological states and fixations, in the

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Speaker 3: case of early American Quakerism, during the colonial and revolutionary periods,

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Speaker 3: dreams were quote a collective endeavor. So the way I

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Speaker 3: understand it is that for these seventeenth and eighteenth century Quakers,

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Speaker 3: there was not only an emphasis placed on prophetic visions

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Speaker 3: received through dreams, but the development of a collaborative prophetic

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Speaker 3: dream culture, where stories of other Quakers prophetic dreams would

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Speaker 3: be shared either in meetings or disseminated and circulated in print,

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Speaker 3: and then interpreted by the community. Coxwrites, quote more than

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Speaker 3: any of their sectarian peers, Quakers developed a uniquely intense

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Speaker 3: practice of recording and circulating their prophetic dreams within their

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Speaker 3: meetings and beyond, each minister sharing in the discussion and interpretation,

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Speaker 3: each dreamer and each auditor imparting his or her own

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Speaker 3: shades of meaning, dialectically collectively shaping a common Quaker identity

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Speaker 3: in the process. So this really captured my imagination because

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Speaker 3: it's sort of describing a scenario where dreams are such

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Speaker 3: a common topic of conversation and a common subject of

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Speaker 3: printed material circulated within the Quaker community, that they really

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Speaker 3: kind of become a major facet of what the culture is.

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Speaker 3: A lot of what it meant to be a Quaker

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Speaker 3: in these times came from discussing dreams and what you

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Speaker 3: thought you learned from.

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Speaker 2: Them, Yeah, which is something that I honestly did not

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Speaker 2: know about Quakerism until we started getting into this research here.

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Speaker 3: But there's another side to it too, which is, as

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Speaker 3: with many religions that contain the possibility of individual revelation,

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Speaker 3: whether that's through dreams or visions or you know, you

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Speaker 3: believe in God speaks to you directly or whatever, there's

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Speaker 3: evidence of a kind of push and pull effect with

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Speaker 3: radical beliefs emerging through supposedly prophetic visions and dreams, and

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Speaker 3: then a kind of taming or watering down process that

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Speaker 3: comes through interpretation or through selective publication.

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Speaker 2: So, if you think.

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Speaker 3: About it, there's kind of an inherent tension between the

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Speaker 3: wild individual agency of democratized dream revelation. Again, thinking like

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Speaker 3: somebody could have a dream and share it with us,

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Speaker 3: and that may well be God himself speaking to us.

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Speaker 3: There's that, and then there's also just like the practical

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Speaker 3: necessities of maintaining a stable social group or the self

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Speaker 3: interested motives of leaders in maintaining their positions of power.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's easy to imagine for any of

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Speaker 2: you out there who are a part of say a

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Speaker 2: modern Protestant or Catholic denomination, like imagine going into church

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Speaker 2: one day and it being announced, okay, from now on,

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Speaker 2: starting right now, everybody can have an input on what

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Speaker 2: we believe and what our individual relationships with God happens

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Speaker 2: to be. And also a second part of that, dreams

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Speaker 2: count as well. Whatever's happening in your dreams, bring that

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Speaker 2: into the conversation. Like I think for people who are

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Speaker 2: who have not had had any either aspect of this

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Speaker 2: be part of their religious and organized religious experience, that

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Speaker 2: would seem chaotic. That would that you would wonder, what

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Speaker 2: does that mean that my faith is now going to

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Speaker 2: be like a Wikipedia article where anyone can edit it

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Speaker 2: and they can cite dreams, or is it going to

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Speaker 2: be something to where organically something will emerge to sort

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Speaker 2: of keep it in check, kind of like you see

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Speaker 2: with many mainstream Wikipedia pages.

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Speaker 3: But there's another layer of difficulty there too, because it's

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Speaker 3: not just like, oh, William had this opinion about what

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Speaker 3: we should believe, and that comes from William. Beliefs potentially

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Speaker 3: come directly from the Divine. The creator of the universe

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Speaker 3: is telling you this through your dreams.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, when anyone in a given congregation, any given group

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Speaker 2: is opened up to the like direct communications from the

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Speaker 2: Divine or you know, certainly things that are interpreted or

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Speaker 2: reinterpreted or presented as such. Yeah, that brings a whole

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Speaker 2: new way to everything.

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Speaker 3: Now, It's one thing if these supposed revelations are just

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Speaker 3: about you know, theological beliefs, understanding of the nature of

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Speaker 3: Christ or something. Not to say that's not important, but

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Speaker 3: that's you know, a different kind of subject matter than

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Speaker 3: dream revelations supposedly from God that are things like maybe

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Speaker 3: we should could overthrow the government, or maybe we should

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Speaker 3: all stop going to work or something like that. Where

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Speaker 3: it turns out that a lot of these early dream

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Speaker 3: revelations in Quaker Friends meetings did have direct political connotations

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Speaker 3: and direct political implications. There was often a tendency for

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Speaker 3: dreams of the early Quakers to be interpreted as granting

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Speaker 3: license to revolt against church and state, and one thing

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Speaker 3: documented in this book is that in response, influential Quaker

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Speaker 3: ministers often kind of counteracted these radical explosions of dream

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Speaker 3: revelation that threatened political or social stability by guiding collaborative

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Speaker 3: dream work sessions and by controlling the publication of prophetic

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Speaker 3: dreams to sort of like steer them toward different interpretations,

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Speaker 3: often having more to do with individual morality and regulation

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Speaker 3: of personal behavior rather than having these radical political implications.

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Speaker 3: And this was especially true apparently for the dreams of Women.

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Speaker 3: To illustrate this, I'm going to quote from the review

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Speaker 3: by Lisa tartar Now who writes quote At the beginning

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Speaker 3: of the Quaker movement, such dreamings were experienced and expressed

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Speaker 3: as apocalyptic prophesying, replete with symbolic language. They promoted friends

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Speaker 3: religious enthusiasm, often attacked political leaders, and addressed contemporary issues,

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Speaker 3: similar to their public tradition of prophesying. Seventeenth century friends

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Speaker 3: shared their visions and dreams quite often and in public.

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Speaker 3: But then by the eighteenth century there was a transition

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Speaker 3: to a more corporate dream work within Quaker culture that

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Speaker 3: was facilitated by leaders of specific Quaker groups who assumed

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Speaker 3: control of the publishing of these dreams, and they regulated

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Speaker 3: and sort of censored how dreams were discussed in Quaker print.

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Speaker 3: Tartar writes, quote no longer confrontational or enthusiastic, This newly

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Speaker 3: shaped corpus of dreams sought to regulate Quaker behavior and

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Speaker 3: self discipline. Was more introspective in nature and focused on

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Speaker 3: the individual, but extended to community wide meaning. And so

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Speaker 3: she says that leaders at the time saw dreams as

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Speaker 3: powerful tools that like, if you selected the right ones

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Speaker 3: to publish and share with other Quaker groups, and if

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Speaker 3: you interpreted them the right way, they could be used

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Speaker 3: to encourage unity among the friends, to make everybody sort

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Speaker 3: of like you know, fit together and function well as

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Speaker 3: a social group. But you had to be careful to

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Speaker 3: avoid letting dream prophetic dreams rock the boat too much, basically.

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Speaker 3: And this is interesting to me because it seems this

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Speaker 3: would probably be the case for any religion that allows

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Speaker 3: new beliefs or new theology to evolve from individual direct

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Speaker 3: experiences that people have, whether that's they believe to be

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Speaker 3: waking visions or just sort of verbal revelations got speaking

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Speaker 3: to people or through dreams. There's always going to be

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Speaker 3: this battle going on within a religious culture that believes

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Speaker 3: in these kinds of revelations, anyone can present the contents

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Speaker 3: of their own mind and their own imagination as a

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Speaker 3: kind of new scripture carrying the terrifying authority of the almighty.

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Speaker 3: But then these dreams have to be quote interpreted, and

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Speaker 3: there will be various pressures guiding that process of interpretation,

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Speaker 3: often trying to resist the radical authority that leaps like

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Speaker 3: lightning out of the mind of a single parishioner.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is fascinating, and I mean you can even

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Speaker 2: compare it to to situations where individual ideas and opinions

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Speaker 2: within a given movement or a given group, you are

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Speaker 2: not tied to dreams and visions. But even in those situations,

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Speaker 2: like say like a protest environment environment like a protest movement,

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Speaker 2: is there going to be an effort to sort of

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Speaker 2: amplify certain voices and bands within that group? Is there

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Speaker 2: going to be an effort to like to lessen the

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Speaker 2: impact of other ideas? And then and then also how

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Speaker 2: do you make it all actionable? Like what ultimately is

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Speaker 2: the sort of the what are you going to end

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Speaker 2: up nailing to the church doors? In other words?

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Speaker 3: You know, mm hmm, But.

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Speaker 2: It is interesting, Yeah, that you bring up that like

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Speaker 2: through publication and selective publication, there is kind of like

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Speaker 2: a theological hierarchy that comes into play here determining exactly

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Speaker 2: what sort of gets presented, what actually gets put forth

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Speaker 2: for further discussion. Yeah, exactly, Struve and in her book

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Speaker 2: rights that in the cases she covers, including those early

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Speaker 2: on involving Euro American dream mystique and also the example

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Speaker 2: get to here in a minute, there is ultimately a

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Speaker 2: trichotomy of opinions concerning the nature of dreams, fed by

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Speaker 2: various influences, including philosophy, really, doctrine, and folklore. And they

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Speaker 2: are one dreams as residue of thought and or byproducts

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Speaker 2: of bodily processes. We've just we've talked about that. The

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Speaker 2: second area dreams is seen as being caused by demonic

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Speaker 2: or satanic forces. And then three, in rare cases with

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Speaker 2: exceptional individuals, they are divine visions or messages. And with

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Speaker 2: the Quaker example, of course, we see item number three

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Speaker 2: taken and democratized. It's no longer the chosen few who

359
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Speaker 2: have the vision. It's everyone who has insight into the vision,

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Speaker 2: everyone who's potentially hearing the words of God.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that is interesting, and it seems like so Struve

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Speaker 3: is saying with those that trichotomy you mentioned, basically that

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Speaker 3: every place you look in history there is sort of

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Speaker 3: a three way understanding of dreams, where there's some understanding

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Speaker 3: that they might just be essentially natural, you know, nothing

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Speaker 3: much to them. They're either something arising from the digestion

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Speaker 3: of beef in your gut, or they're just what you

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Speaker 3: were thinking about in the day. Second thing is they're

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Speaker 3: from an evil spiritual entity, and the third is they're

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Speaker 3: from a good spiritual entity. And so, yeah, it seems

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Speaker 3: like the Quakers really opened the floodgates on option number three.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it does make me wonder like today are

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Speaker 2: we are we still living in an age where predominantly

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Speaker 2: the floodgates are open on item one, like like they

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Speaker 2: are we? You know, can I this doesn't cover everybody.

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Speaker 2: You're gonna still have certain areas and parts of society

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Speaker 2: where two and three are gonna have more weight. But

378
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Speaker 2: for the most part, yeah, do we just sort of

379
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Speaker 2: default too? Well? You know, I shouldn't have eaten that potato,

380
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Speaker 2: or I shouldn't have like in my case just the

381
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Speaker 2: other night, shouldn't have watched that horror movie messed up

382
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Speaker 2: my dreams all night long, gave me a terrible night

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Speaker 2: of sleep. But I'm not blaming it on a satanic force,

384
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Speaker 2: but true what chimes in on this idea of like,

385
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Speaker 2: you know, prophetic dreams and how they're managed, and she

386
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Speaker 2: says that, yeah, it then falls to authority figures to

387
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Speaker 2: employ these categories as needed to quote, protect their respective

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Speaker 2: creeds against challenges to orthodoxy from the random mental effusions

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Speaker 2: of neophytes. So that means that, you know, in more

390
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Speaker 2: sort of balanced situations, if someone's saying, hey, God spoke

391
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Speaker 2: to me in a dream, then you would have someone

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Speaker 2: in a position to say so come forward and say, well,

393
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Speaker 2: I don't know that that's God's voice. Perhaps that is

394
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Speaker 2: the potato you ate, or you know, there are other

395
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Speaker 2: reasons we have the dreams that we have and perhaps

396
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Speaker 2: that's what it was, or even potentially dipping into number

397
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Speaker 2: two and saying, you know, there are other forces that

398
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Speaker 2: may influence our dreams and they are not all divine.

399
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Speaker 3: Now, one last thing I think is worth emphasizing about

400
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Speaker 3: the Quakers is I think Struve selects them because they

401
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:45,719
Speaker 3: do conform to her general idea that times and places

402
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:50,920
Speaker 3: where there is a sudden profusion of writing about dreams.

403
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 3: This often coincides with times of extreme social and cultural change,

404
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Speaker 3: where there's a lot of like churn and who has

405
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,920
Speaker 3: power and there's a lot of uncertainty and anxiety, which

406
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 3: again would have been true about England in the sixteen

407
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 3: forties that remember that passage from walvin Abound, like it

408
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Speaker 3: being the greatest time of upheaval and English history.

409
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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so you can definitely see those pressures in place.

410
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Speaker 2: And then yeah, and then not only on the British

411
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 2: side of the ocean, but then once they get to

412
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Speaker 2: the new world, like, yeah, there are all sorts of

413
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Speaker 2: new stresses and problems, like it is not it is

414
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Speaker 2: not just this world of new opportunity. Obviously there are

415
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 2: there's you know, an indigenous population, there are all these

416
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 2: other groups. There's just sort of the you know, the

417
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 2: potentially harsh nature of the reality of a colonial life

418
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Speaker 2: and so forth. Now, with all of that in mind,

419
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Speaker 2: it's it's interesting that one of the other main examples

420
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Speaker 2: that she makes in the book that Struth makes concerns

421
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Speaker 2: Southism in the Ottoman Empire. And as we get into

422
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,199
Speaker 2: this here and discuss it, I think it'll become like

423
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,879
Speaker 2: more obvious how this particular example falls in line with

424
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Speaker 2: what we've been discussing, but also some of the things

425
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 2: that seem to make it unique if I'm understanding everything correctly. So,

426
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 2: dreams are of great importance in Islam, especially as referenced

427
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 2: in the Qur'an and the revelations of the prophet Muhammad.

428
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Speaker 2: In Sufism, a more mystical branch of Islam, dreams are

429
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 2: even more important given the emphasis on quote direct experience

430
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 2: of the divine and on achieving is static union with

431
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 2: God through dreams, visions, and trance unquote. The interest in

432
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:38,679
Speaker 2: dreams was, according to Struve, generally prognostic, and there were

433
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:42,920
Speaker 2: various manuals for dream interpretation, but they also probed their

434
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,159
Speaker 2: dreams and journaled the contents of their dreams as a

435
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 2: way of seeking quote indications of their current spiritual state unquote,

436
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,400
Speaker 2: which you know to a certain extent, Like that kind

437
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 2: of jives with the way we see dreams today, right though,

438
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 2: And I guess in a non spiritual sense, like you

439
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,679
Speaker 2: could look at your dreams and you could learn something

440
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,640
Speaker 2: perhaps about the state of your own mind if you had,

441
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 2: you know, the ability or the tools to sort of

442
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:17,400
Speaker 2: dig through like the nonsense that is inherent in our dreams.

443
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 2: But again in Sufhism, particularly Ottoman Sufhism. Here, according to

444
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:25,440
Speaker 2: his story of dreams were seen as sacred bestows rather

445
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 2: than subjective, and it all contributed to an intense intellectual

446
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 2: focus on the contents of dreams. Under the Ottoman Empire,

447
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 2: intellectuals of the day look to dreams for solutions, for inspiration,

448
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:44,200
Speaker 2: and also for introspection. Quote. Every change in daily life

449
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 2: was believed to have a counterpart in dreams or to

450
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 2: possess another worldly dimension. So I did a bit more

451
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:55,440
Speaker 2: reading on the subject of Sufi Ottoman dreaming, and according

452
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 2: to scholar Osgen Fhelik in twenty twenty three, quote, the

453
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 2: study of dreams in the Ottoman and greater Islamic worlds

454
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:07,879
Speaker 2: is still in its early emergent stages unquote. So it

455
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:09,959
Speaker 2: seems like that's an important caveat to make here that

456
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 2: there is. It seems to be quite a bit more

457
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:18,440
Speaker 2: on all of this for academics to consider and to analyze. Now.

458
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:22,439
Speaker 2: Felick had previously edited a volume titled Dreams and Visions

459
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 2: in Islamic Society, in which Alexander D. Denesh shares that

460
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,919
Speaker 2: the Arab mystic Iban al Arabi, who lived eleven sixty

461
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,639
Speaker 2: five through twelve forty, suggested that quote, the only reason

462
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 2: God plays sleep in the animate world was so that

463
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 2: everyone might know that there is another world similar to

464
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 2: the sensory world.

465
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 3: Oh that's interesting, though, I wonder if I'm interpreting this right.

466
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 3: So it would mean that under Ibn al Arabi's view,

467
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 3: that God gave us dreams so we would know that

468
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 3: the material world is not all there is, that there

469
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 3: is another world, and dreams are like one demonstration of that.

470
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, which is which is quite quite fascinating to

471
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 2: see this stress especially. I mean, I can't help but

472
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 2: think about things that I've read in the past concerning say,

473
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 2: witchcraft persecution in Europe, and the idea that like that, this,

474
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 2: this world of the alleged occult was perhaps a focus

475
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 2: for witchcraft persecutors because it gave them some idea of like,

476
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 2: here is the supernatural world, and if the infernal version

477
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 2: of that is real, then so is the divine. But

478
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 2: here this stress seems to be like look no further

479
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 2: than the world of dreams, Like that is kind of

480
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 2: the proof right there again if I'm understanding this correctly.

481
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 2: But according to even l RB here, the dream state

482
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 2: allows one to probe mysteries of God and creation that

483
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 2: are normally quite invisible to us. Densh describes this view

484
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 2: as one detailing dreams as an instrument of cognition that

485
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 2: enable people to better understand not all only the inner

486
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:04,239
Speaker 2: workings of the waking world, but to better understand the

487
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 2: next world as well. For as even al Arabi would

488
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 2: frequently quote, the prophet said that people are asleep and

489
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 2: when they die, they awake. So dreams are like this

490
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 2: hidden window. Now, the author stresses that while not all

491
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 2: Muslims of the time would have agreed with even al

492
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 2: Arabi on this, they would at least still value the

493
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 2: importance of dreaming and of waking visions in the Muslim life.

494
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 2: Pre modern Muslims, Danish writes, saw dreams as things that

495
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 2: revealed not only hidden personal insights, but hidden aspects of

496
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 2: the wider universe, things otherwise hidden, citing the words of

497
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 2: the prophet, with his death, tidings of prophecy would end,

498
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 2: but quote true dreams would endure, and with this in mind,

499
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 2: believers in the Sufi school of Islam saw dreams as

500
00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 2: a kind of a font of continued revelations. It's kind

501
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 2: of like the main font of revelation is now closed.

502
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 2: It's the message is complete, but there's kind of this

503
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 2: continued signal that will be open to those you know

504
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 2: who will listen to it, who can receive these true dreams.

505
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 2: So Denesh writes that the result is kind of twofold

506
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 2: here for this particular example. First of all, a devout

507
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 2: Muslim could expect the guidance of God in dreams, and

508
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 2: two Sufi's in particular made broad use of dreams and

509
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 2: dream lore quote from training Sufi disciples and prognostication to

510
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 2: confirming the special status and authority of individual Sufi masters,

511
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 2: as well as authenticating spiritual genealogies and mystical orders. At

512
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 2: the same time, Deniesh points out that dreams and visions

513
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 2: were and still are seen by Muslims as not only

514
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 2: cosmological and social, but also reflections of the dreamers inner

515
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:01,239
Speaker 2: world quote expressions of both inner and outer voices. So

516
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 2: again coming back to this, this this idea that yeah,

517
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 2: dreams may reveal things about the world unseen, they may

518
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 2: reveal things about the future, but also they may reveal

519
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 2: things about yourself, which again that kind of compares rather

520
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 2: favorably with sort of the secular way that that many people,

521
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 2: certainly in the West, few dreams today.

522
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 3: So I'm understanding this as the difference being that many

523
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 3: Muslims would view dreams not as a source of sort

524
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 3: of new theology that would change anything revealed in the

525
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 3: Qur'an or anything like that, but that it would offer

526
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 3: sort of specific guidance that is more particular to your

527
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 3: time and place in history.

528
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, that's that's my understanding. And now, as with

529
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 2: our example with the Quakers, you know, same here. If

530
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 2: you have have a particular expertise in background in Islam

531
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 2: or in Sufism, you know, we would love to hear

532
00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 2: from you and get your your your individual take on

533
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 2: all of this. But based on what we've been reading

534
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 2: in researching herea, it does seem like dreams important in

535
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 2: Islam broadly, with a heightened importance in Sufism, and then

536
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 2: during the Ottoman Empire particularly so particular focus of time

537
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 2: and place, though it is kind of a broader period

538
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 2: of time. We'll get into details on that in just

539
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 2: a second. Even more focus on the power of dreams now.

540
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 2: Danish also drives home though that, Yeah, it is important

541
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 2: to note that dream cultures will vary from one Muslim

542
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 2: society and one time to another. So yeah, don't again,

543
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 2: don't take any of this as meaning like all Muslims,

544
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 2: all Sufis, et cetera, believe this about any given dreams. Now.

545
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 2: The book I reference covers different topics under this umbrella

546
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 2: of dreaming, but there's another author in it, Gottfried Hagen,

547
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 2: who singles out Ottoman dream culture as well. I just

548
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 2: wanted to share a quick quote from Hagen on this quote.

549
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 2: Throughout the pre modern era and probably much longer, people

550
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 2: in the Ottoman Empire were firmly convinced of the reality

551
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 2: of dreams. Now. Another interesting thing to think about, especially

552
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 2: with this particular case, is that, you know, naturally one

553
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 2: sees the importance of dream culture reflected in folklore as well,

554
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 2: you know, because a lot of this is concerning I

555
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:34,880
Speaker 2: guess my understanding anyway, like the upper parts of like

556
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 2: the Sufi system at the time. But beneath all that,

557
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 2: you're also going to have sort of underlying folklore, right

558
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 2: that is, I'm assuming working both ways, like folklore influenced

559
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 2: by the prominent dream culture of the day, but also

560
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 2: perhaps contributing to the general energy of it as well.

561
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 2: I looked at a paper titled dream Motif in Turkish

562
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,840
Speaker 2: Folk Stories and sh Homanistic Initiation, and it discusses some

563
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 2: examples of this, such as a motif of a young

564
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 2: man or woman having an important dream, either after a

565
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,839
Speaker 2: traumatic event or after they pray to God for help

566
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,240
Speaker 2: following such an event. And then in the dream that follows,

567
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,839
Speaker 2: a holy man or holy men, and then sometimes it's

568
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 2: a maiden offers the youth a cup of wine to drink,

569
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 2: and this is sometimes described as like a love potion.

570
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 2: They predict his future love or her future love. They

571
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 2: give them a pseudonym under which to write poetry, and

572
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,800
Speaker 2: they offer guidance in the future. And then there's additional

573
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 2: dream imagery that occurs in this motif, including the like

574
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:46,279
Speaker 2: the burning of the body like the mortal body, and

575
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 2: the dream burns away and they awake with all this

576
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,840
Speaker 2: inspiration brought on by the dream. Now they're inspired to

577
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 2: write poetry inspired by both this dream cup of wine

578
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 2: and also inspired by God. The author rights quote the

579
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,800
Speaker 2: dream motif Complex and Turkish folk Stories provides a valuable

580
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 2: case to illustrate how a ceremonial right, a shamanistic initiation right,

581
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 2: turns into a fiction motif through long social and historical development.

582
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 2: There is a striking resemblance between the initiation of a

583
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 2: candidate into a shamanistic profession and the dream motif complex

584
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 2: which initiates the candidate into the new life of an

585
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 2: artist and lover. And the author here links these folkloric stories,

586
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 2: including the one that I just shared and also some

587
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 2: that are discussed elsewhere in this particular ride up to

588
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 2: magico religious life of the Turko Mongol Shamans.

589
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 3: But this is not particular to the Ottoman Muslim period in.

590
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:49,320
Speaker 2: Turkey, no no. But though the particular dream motif that

591
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:53,920
Speaker 2: is shared here I believe has some clear Islamic cultural

592
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 2: cultural labeling, like the way that that the Holy Men

593
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:02,279
Speaker 2: are presented. They're presented, at least in this version of it,

594
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 2: as Islamic kolu Men. Yeah. But I bring it up though,

595
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,400
Speaker 2: just to sort of try to dig at and explore

596
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 2: the idea that yeah, that any given culture you're going

597
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 2: to still have like these other folkloric energies going on

598
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 2: as well, that are going to have certain stresses regarding

599
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:22,840
Speaker 2: let's say, the reality of dreams, the cause of dreams,

600
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 2: and the prophetic nature of dreams as well. But to

601
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 2: come back to the Ottoman dynasty specifically, which ultimately runs

602
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 2: twelve ninety nine through nineteen twelve. According to Struve, one

603
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 2: has a strong dream tradition of Sufi Islam, the influence

604
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 2: of Turkish Shamanism, and by the sixteenth century one sees

605
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 2: a particularly strong Ottoman empire quote as the empire was

606
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:50,839
Speaker 2: brought by successive conquests to nearly ring the Mediterranean Sea,

607
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 2: and also on top of that the prominence of the

608
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 2: Sufi Halvetti order and also growing excitement in the Muslim

609
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 2: world over quote anticipation of the appearance of a messiah,

610
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 2: the Mahdi, who would prepare the world for judgment day,

611
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:10,360
Speaker 2: a millennial belief affirmed in Sufism. So if I'm understanding

612
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 2: everything correctly here, Struve seems to outline less of an

613
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:16,280
Speaker 2: external stress based inward gays and one more like deeply

614
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 2: deeply rooted in religion and culture and then heightened by

615
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 2: theological prominence and millennial excitement. So it was a like

616
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:28,720
Speaker 2: a high time of dream reports, dream journaling mythologizing dream

617
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,719
Speaker 2: lore and consultation of one's own dreams for daily guidance.

618
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:38,799
Speaker 2: Struve quotes the modern historian draworza Hevy on all of this,

619
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 2: who is a historian with a particular expertise in Ottoman culture. Quote.

620
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:47,759
Speaker 2: Ottoman culture may be described as a dream culture in

621
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 2: the sense that true or imaginary every change in daily

622
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 2: life was believed to have had a counterpart in dreams,

623
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 2: or to possess an otherworldly dimension. People seem to have

624
00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 2: used dreams for introspection, to interpret the past, to anticipate

625
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,320
Speaker 2: the future, and to calculate their moves. Dream Lore was

626
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 2: a unifying discourse, uniting people in a bond of shared experience,

627
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 2: knitting together insights from politics, medicine, and religion.

628
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:16,279
Speaker 3: Oh well, there is a kind of similarity with the

629
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 3: Quaker example of the emergence of a sort of collective

630
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:24,319
Speaker 3: dream culture in a way where people would share and

631
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 3: discuss their dreams and the meaning of dreams. And there

632
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:30,840
Speaker 3: was it was more than just like an individual private

633
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 3: experience that you have, believing that it reflects the you know,

634
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:37,360
Speaker 3: the contents of your own mind. That there was something

635
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 3: bigger and more collective to it.

636
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was really taken by that as well, a

637
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 2: unifying discourse, which there's so many things that are different

638
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:48,759
Speaker 2: about the Ottoman example in the Quaker example, but this

639
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 2: does seem to be the thing that they both have

640
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 2: in common in their own ways. And again both in

641
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 2: both cases it's so different from the way we think

642
00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 2: about our dreams today, like since we often have this

643
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 2: idea that it is at best this kind of thing

644
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 2: we extrude that has if you tease it apart enough,

645
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 2: going to have some sort of insight or about our

646
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 2: own inner world. It's the kind of thing where if

647
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:15,279
Speaker 2: you imagine yourself going to work, if you're you know,

648
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 2: among your coworkers and go like, hey, everybody, you want

649
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:19,799
Speaker 2: to hear about my dream last night? Like that would

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00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 2: that would feel more like a social faux pas, right,

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00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 2: that would seem like something you should not do, like

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00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:27,839
Speaker 2: nobody wants to hear that, or perhaps you're oversharing by

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00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 2: mentioning it, you know, unless you have something I guess

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00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 2: just the right calibration to share. Whereas in these accounts

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00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:38,359
Speaker 2: like the Drink, sharing your dreams was just was part

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00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 2: of the culture and it brought people together rather than

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00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 2: making them seem like you know, the office weirdo as

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00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:48,319
Speaker 2: it might be in today's world in the West. All right,

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00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:49,800
Speaker 2: on that note, we're going to go ahead and close

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00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 2: this episode out, but we'll be We'll be back for

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00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 2: at least one more episode dealing with this whole topic

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00:40:55,680 --> 00:41:00,160
Speaker 2: of dream mystique and dream fascination and dream culture, so

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00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 2: be sure to tune in on Thursday for that. In

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00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:07,440
Speaker 2: the meantime, you can check out other core episodes of

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00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:08,879
Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind and the Stuff to Blow

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00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 2: Your Mind podcast feed on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On Mondays

667
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 2: we do a listener mail, on Wednesdays we do a

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00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 2: short form artifact or monster effect, and on Fridays we

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00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 2: set aside most serious concerns to just talk about a

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00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 2: weird film on Weird House Cinema.

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00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 3: Huge thanks to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. If

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00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 3: you would like to get in touch with us with

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00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 3: feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest a

674
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 3: topic for the future, or just to say hello, you

675
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 3: can email us at contact at stuff to Blow your

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00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 3: Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production

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00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:46,359
Speaker 3: of iHeartRadio.

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00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:49,320
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio

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00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:51,800
Speaker 1: app Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen.

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00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 3: To your favorite shows

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00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 2: In ratatator,