WEBVTT - How Classified Information Works 0:00:01.480 --> 0:00:04.280 Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of I 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:13.200 Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:16.959 and there's Chuck and there's Jerry over there on the download, 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:22.160 and this is Stuff you should Know the podcast, the 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:26.000 top Secret edition. Yes, exactly what you should know is 0:00:26.120 --> 0:00:31.720 decided by us. That's right, we give clearance. Clarence, well, 0:00:31.720 --> 0:00:34.040 that's a good one. I wouldn't have put that one together, 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:39.840 but that's great. Thanks, So Chuck, we're talking about classified information, 0:00:39.880 --> 0:00:42.120 top secret information. A lot of people call it by 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:45.560 especially if you're twelve years older younger, but it's actually 0:00:45.600 --> 0:00:49.480 a real thing. That's like a real designation top secret, which, 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:51.440 by the way, I went back and watched that movie 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:56.840 again for the first time in years, and it is hilarious. Yeah. 0:00:56.920 --> 0:00:58.920 I just made an airplane reference in Top Secret? Is 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:01.920 uh saying that it's a Zuckers, right, Zuckers. Yeah. I 0:01:01.960 --> 0:01:04.560 think they worked with somebody different that time. I'm not 0:01:04.640 --> 0:01:08.360 sing what capacity, but the Zuckers were involved for sure. 0:01:08.800 --> 0:01:11.640 The Balcomer. That documentary on him, it is fantastic, by 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:14.240 the way, I've heard, I have not yet to watch it. 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:17.080 We just got through a made Have you seen made 0:01:17.440 --> 0:01:22.120 haven't seen made. It's a even after and you just like, 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:24.200 I wonder what bad thing is going to happen to 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:26.200 her next? I know something bad is going to It 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:28.680 really wears you down like that for sure, but it's good. 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:32.160 It's worth watching. Well, since we're on it with tv REX. 0:01:32.200 --> 0:01:34.640 Before we get going, I've been watching Station eleven and 0:01:34.640 --> 0:01:37.679 it's one of my favorite shows in years. Station eleven. 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:41.080 What's it on HBO? It is a from a novel, 0:01:41.800 --> 0:01:48.120 a post apocalyptic virus actually pandemic weirdly, but it's more 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:52.040 on the order of like of the Earth Died and 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:56.960 but it's not the Road. It's it's more interesting, it's 0:01:57.160 --> 0:01:59.880 more hopeful and artistic. Cool. I'll check it out. Did 0:01:59.880 --> 0:02:02.280 you ever see The Leftovers? I think is what they 0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:05.720 were called. Well, what's funny is we were watching that too. 0:02:05.720 --> 0:02:08.040 We just started that because we were in that groove 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:10.480 and we never saw The Leftovers, and I heard it 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:12.560 was really good kind of and even got better through 0:02:12.600 --> 0:02:15.919 the years. I envy you. I wish I could see 0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:18.440 The Leftovers again for the first time. It's that. I'm 0:02:18.480 --> 0:02:21.519 really excited, dude. It's very good. All right, Now we 0:02:21.520 --> 0:02:23.200 should get to it because this is dense, so we're 0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:25.840 talking about Yes, it is super dense. I mean this Uh. 0:02:26.240 --> 0:02:29.720 We asked some help from Ed Grabanowski the grab Stir 0:02:30.200 --> 0:02:33.440 and he turned into James Missioner novel. It is so dense. 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:37.400 Every paragraph is really dense. UM. And it's it's there's 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:41.760 it's inevitable, Like just researching this one, there's so much 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:44.520 to just go and read and so many rabbit holes 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:47.280 to go down, because what we're talking about is really 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:52.079 like simple concept on its face, Like there are secrets 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:56.320 that like any government would not want other governments or 0:02:56.320 --> 0:02:59.480 other people are sometimes even their own people to know. 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:02.520 It would just make the functioning of that government that 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:07.120 much harder. Um, it might make the country vulnerable to attack. 0:03:07.160 --> 0:03:09.240 There's a lot of reasons why you would not want 0:03:09.360 --> 0:03:11.840 to share all of your business. So you want to 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:16.000 classify information based on how damaging it could be to 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:20.200 national security, and then you just decide who has clearance 0:03:20.280 --> 0:03:24.840 to see that those various classifications of information. That's it, 0:03:24.919 --> 0:03:29.600 that's classified information. But in practice, in reality, it's such 0:03:29.639 --> 0:03:34.840 a behemoth concept that is so fraught with problems, that 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:40.800 is so often completely and utterly anti democratic. Um. And 0:03:40.840 --> 0:03:44.480 then it's just so bureaucratically layer that it is extremely 0:03:44.680 --> 0:03:47.400 it's an extremely dense topic. I just want to make 0:03:47.440 --> 0:03:49.960 sure we added a good extra three minutes onto this 0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:53.520 episode with that. Well, I think you know. The good 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:57.520 news is the history can be condensed really easily into 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:01.640 They had state secrets back in ancient times too, but 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:03.600 back then it was a lot easier to keep secrets 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:07.880 because there was no technology and there was no bureaucracy generally, 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:13.160 So if the autocratic or semi autocratic leader said it 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:15.280 was a secret, then it was a secret, and that 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:18.159 was kind of the end of it. Um, things changed 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:22.680 because of technology and because of bureaucracy, and because of 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:26.839 the development of nuclear weapons when there was truly something 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:31.800 so kind of world ending at stake that things needed 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:36.039 to be ratcheted up. And this all started with a 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:40.600 series of acts and even more so a series of 0:04:41.040 --> 0:04:44.720 presidential executive orders over the years to really sort of 0:04:44.800 --> 0:04:47.760 put these executive orders in place to vaguely say who 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:49.520 can know what and how we're gonna do it. And 0:04:49.520 --> 0:04:51.039 then the acts come into play to say how are 0:04:51.040 --> 0:04:52.640 we going to punish people who do it the wrong 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:55.520 way or don't do it? Yeah, and um, it's like 0:04:55.560 --> 0:04:58.560 you said, the executive orders are where the kind of 0:04:58.600 --> 0:05:02.160 classification and how thing are classified, how they become declassified, 0:05:02.200 --> 0:05:05.560 how that got all sorted out. But Congress has largely 0:05:05.600 --> 0:05:07.800 been left to figure out how to punish people who 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:12.919 transgress against those those um sharing that information. And that 0:05:13.000 --> 0:05:16.920 whole thing started with the Defense Secrets Act of nineteen eleven, appropriately, 0:05:17.279 --> 0:05:21.200 which evolved into the Espionage Act. But you hit you. 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:24.240 You use the word um that I think is really um, 0:05:24.400 --> 0:05:27.240 really important and really describes one of the big problems 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:31.120 with the classification system in the United States, which is um, 0:05:31.160 --> 0:05:36.200 it's vague. The descriptions, the explanations, the rules are very 0:05:36.360 --> 0:05:39.360 vague and nebulous, and so there's a lot of room 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:42.800 for objectivity, and there's a lot of room to just say, 0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:45.120 I don't really know what this is, so I'm just 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:48.159 gonna put it on the highest possible level of secrecy 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:51.599 that I can. Yeah, this is interesting because I think 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:54.599 the vagueness is definitely a problem that leads to part 0:05:54.600 --> 0:05:58.760 of the bigger problem with classification and over classification, which 0:05:58.760 --> 0:06:01.200 we're gonna talk a lot about. But I also think 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:04.520 that in a lot of cases like this, vagueness like 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:07.880 this is one area where human uh what was the 0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:15.240 word he used? Error objectivity where human subjectivity kind of 0:06:15.279 --> 0:06:19.599 has to come into play. Uh. And this is jumping 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:21.719 ahead a little bit, but like, as far as you 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:24.799 know what to classify something, like the way they decide 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:27.640 that is how bad will it hurt America? Is it grave? 0:06:27.760 --> 0:06:32.960 Danger um? What was the second one? Um? Sort of 0:06:32.960 --> 0:06:37.359 like medium grave and then just danger and that's and 0:06:37.400 --> 0:06:39.880 it's you know, people can have complained that like, well 0:06:39.880 --> 0:06:41.560 that's not really spelled out, But I don't know if 0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:45.400 you can codify that to a t like of how 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:49.560 dangerous something is. I don't know. I believe that human 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:53.200 subjectivity has to come into play. I'm not defending over classification, 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:55.560 but I don't know. This is one of those things 0:06:55.600 --> 0:07:00.760 that can be bureaucracized and legislated to the to the 0:07:00.880 --> 0:07:03.880 nth degree. You know, well, it's that's ironic because the 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:06.960 whole reason this exists like this is because of bureaucracy. 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:09.640 You know, yes, but you you make a good point, 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:12.480 and I think that is ultimately the reason the driving 0:07:12.560 --> 0:07:16.200 force behind keeping things vague, because you couldn't possibly describe 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:20.400 every situation and say, well, if this happens, then it 0:07:20.400 --> 0:07:22.280 would cause grave danger and you want to make a 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:27.040 top secret, etcetera. Right, But like you said, the Espionage 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:32.240 Act in nineteen seventeen was brought upon by the advent 0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:36.520 of World War One, and this basically um like they 0:07:36.560 --> 0:07:39.200 also they already storted from the nineteen eleven version had 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:42.160 the vague terms that said, you know, you can't provide 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:45.440 this information related to national defense to people who shouldn't 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:48.320 have it. Uh, started out vague, but this is where 0:07:48.320 --> 0:07:51.120 the teeth came in as far as punishment goes, because 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:54.440 it was during wartime, so it was super harsh. Yeah. 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:57.080 I remember we've talked before about Eugene Debs, who was 0:07:57.120 --> 0:08:01.040 the Socialist candidate for president in the can't remember what election, 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:04.239 but around World War One, and he ran his campaign 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:07.120 from prison because he was put in prison for basically 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:10.720 denouncing the US war effort during World War One. And 0:08:10.800 --> 0:08:13.920 you could not speak out against the United States military, 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:17.360 the United States itself, the United States Constitution. You couldn't 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:20.640 say anything critical about it or you could be put 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:22.880 in prison. And people were put in prison because of it. 0:08:22.880 --> 0:08:25.600 And they walk that stuff back, the First Amendment violations back. 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:28.360 But the point is is a big part of it was. 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:31.400 It grew out of this idea that if you share 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:35.800 state secrets you can be seriously harshly punished like the 0:08:35.880 --> 0:08:38.920 Julius and Ethel Rosenberg's were. They were actually put to 0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:43.600 death under the Espionage Act and it's still around today. Um, 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:47.760 Chelsea Manning, Reality Winner, Edward Snowden, all of them were 0:08:47.800 --> 0:08:52.520 prosecuted under the Espionage Act of nineteen seventeen, which basically says, 0:08:52.559 --> 0:08:56.160 if you share any state any classified information, you can 0:08:56.480 --> 0:08:59.000 be severely punished and lose years of your life in 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:01.800 prison or again ultimately put to death. I'm not sure 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:04.280 if that's still on the books, but it very well maybe. 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:07.160 So we should also talk about this other sort of 0:09:07.280 --> 0:09:11.120 precursor to what we have today, the system we have today, 0:09:11.160 --> 0:09:14.440 which was in eighteen sixty nine, and this addresses the 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:19.080 technology kind of for the first time. Um, the War Department. Uh, 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:22.680 they brought out General Order number thirty five, so cute 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:29.319 back then, number thirty five ledge. Uh. What they basically said, Hey, 0:09:29.360 --> 0:09:32.839 there are cameras now that exist, so you can't be 0:09:32.920 --> 0:09:36.000 in a fort, uh and take pictures of the fort 0:09:36.559 --> 0:09:38.760 or above the fort or around the fort, like no 0:09:38.840 --> 0:09:43.000 pictures basically anymore. And so they're acknowledging technology for the 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:45.440 first time. And the other big thing was this is 0:09:45.480 --> 0:09:47.560 a peace time move, so it's the first time like 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:49.520 we weren't at war and sort of putting these rules 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:52.120 into place. Yeah, because there are rules about that kind 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:54.840 of thing, like even dating back to the Revolutionary Army 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:57.000 and the Continental Congress about this stuff. But this was 0:09:57.040 --> 0:09:58.440 a that was a peace time one, and that was 0:09:58.480 --> 0:10:02.840 significant because the classification system is a peace time and 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:06.800 now largely civilian system, but it found its roots in 0:10:06.840 --> 0:10:09.760 the military quite rightfully. I mean even still today, even 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:14.559 people who are highly critical of the American classified information 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:20.240 system say it should basically be kept to military maneuvers, 0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:23.719 maybe state department negotiations, and even then it should be 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:27.440 a very short time. But the general consensus is, yes, 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:30.559 you would not want anyone understanding or knowing what your 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:35.240 military was doing basically. Right. The first time that they 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:38.520 sort of or at least somebody started to say the 0:10:38.559 --> 0:10:42.600 word over classification and and the fact that they needed 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:47.160 a sort of a tiered system was Brigadier General Arthur Murray, 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:50.200 who was Chief of Artillery at the time. He wrote 0:10:50.240 --> 0:10:52.600 a letter to the Secretary of War that basically said, listen, 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:56.120 all we've got is this one classification. It's confidential, and 0:10:56.120 --> 0:10:59.959 they're stamping everything confidential even if it shouldn't be confidential, 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:02.839 and that just you know, if if everything is being 0:11:02.840 --> 0:11:05.720 stamped this way, then it loses its meaning. So we 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:08.080 have to And they didn't call it over classification at 0:11:08.080 --> 0:11:10.240 the time. Really, I think that was just sort of 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:13.360 the first person to mention this. But he said, what 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:17.120 we really need is a tiered system of how classified 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:20.800 it should be. And they're already doing this in Britain. Uh, 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:24.880 they have their four tiered system for your eyes only only, 0:11:25.480 --> 0:11:32.920 Moonraker Live and Let Die and gold remember no gold 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:35.600 member Old Finger gold Member was a good one. Now 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:38.440 for your eyes only is the actual classification. Then you 0:11:38.480 --> 0:11:42.079 have for the information of commission officers only for official 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:46.199 use only and not for publication. And the chiefs of 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:48.480 Staff said, you know what, I think it's a great idea. 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:51.720 This four tiered system is probably something we should use, 0:11:52.160 --> 0:11:54.800 but not these not the way you're doing it. We 0:11:54.840 --> 0:11:56.120 need to be able to kind of make this up 0:11:56.120 --> 0:11:58.439 as we go to It seems way too tea and 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:00.720 crumpets stuffs, so we need to I'm up with something 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:03.280 else well, I think too rigid. It sounds like they 0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:06.640 wanted to be able to decide be a little nimble 0:12:06.760 --> 0:12:09.760 with how they classified things as they went. Yeah, because 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:11.959 they the system they initially came up with was to 0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:14.760 just basically put at the preface of say like a 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:18.840 manual or a document that says, this is only for 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:23.160 you know, this division or this this um armed services, 0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:27.200 or this type of officer, this whatever, and then it 0:12:27.240 --> 0:12:29.520 should not be it should not be given to anybody 0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:33.320 else beyond them, um. And you could conceivably just do 0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:36.640 that for every single document. But the problem is that 0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:38.760 this was stuff that they were talking about in nine 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:44.079 seven in America was still fairly small federal government wise. 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:46.320 I mean it was, it was growing big time after 0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:49.480 the Civil War, but compared to today, like the bureaucracy 0:12:49.600 --> 0:12:52.160 was just nothing like it is. And so you could 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:55.800 conceivably do that in the armed forces. But as as 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:59.720 things grew and the bureaucracy grew and the government crew, um, 0:12:59.720 --> 0:13:01.880 it became impossible to come up with this kind of 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:04.560 thing for every single document, and much easier to just 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:07.280 say this is this category, this is that category, and 0:13:07.320 --> 0:13:10.960 this is that category, right, and those we should mention 0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:14.040 as a little sidebar. There was even one debate for 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:16.679 a short time where they were coming up with the 0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:19.600 different classification levels where they wondered if they should even 0:13:19.640 --> 0:13:23.559 make up words. There weren't words, I guess to make 0:13:23.600 --> 0:13:26.840 it even more confidential or confusing. But then they said, 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:29.679 oh wait a minute, this is this is more confusing 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:32.960 to us even and we don't want someone you know, 0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:37.040 high on the totem pole which really means low, uh, 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:40.200 not understanding what this word even means, and then making 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:42.640 a mistake because of that. Yeah, so like, let's use 0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:46.600 real word. Private piles like red turtle doesn't sound very important. 0:13:46.679 --> 0:13:49.600 I'm sure I can tell everybody about that, that's right. 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:52.120 So when you say private pile, do you mean gilmer 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:55.520 pile or full metal jacket? Take your pick. Okay, so 0:13:55.640 --> 0:14:00.000 I'm both doing that. Should we take a break, Yeah, 0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:01.520 all right, we'll take a break and we'll talk about 0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:26.520 the atomic age and how that played in right after this. Okay, chuck. 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:28.920 So it was all just kind of willy nilly and 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:32.280 the Armed Forces of America we're figuring out how to 0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:35.800 set up their own classification system, and it was actually 0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:40.800 supported and codified starting with one of those executive orders 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:48.320 that came from President Franklin Roosevelt EOE, and it basically said, 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:51.560 everything the military is doing is right. Um, they've got 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:54.120 some great terms over there, we've got some secret, we 0:14:54.240 --> 0:14:57.240 got restricted, we've got confidential. Let's keep going with that. 0:14:57.760 --> 0:15:00.160 And it just kind of was it was. It was 0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:02.240 mainly coming out of the military, and the military was 0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:05.160 figuring it out. But then, like you said, the atomic 0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:11.160 age came along and the stakes became exponentially higher because 0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:15.640 we had different countries conceivably working on an atomic weapon, 0:15:15.800 --> 0:15:18.880 the likes of which had never been seen, the destructiveness 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:21.360 of which had never been seen ever in the history 0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:25.120 of humanity. And like its just things got real and 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:28.200 the need for secrecy got real, so much so that 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:31.640 even before the Manhattan Projects started, the scientists that were 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:37.680 working on atomic research, we're keeping their research secret to themselves, 0:15:37.720 --> 0:15:40.400 like by their own by their own like consensus, Like 0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:42.760 they're like the public, we can't we have to be 0:15:42.800 --> 0:15:46.400 careful publishing papers about this. Yeah, I think that's interesting 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:49.720 that they just sort of knew to shut up about it, 0:15:49.880 --> 0:15:53.160 even I would imagine within their own families. That was 0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:55.680 probably back in the day where they were like daddy 0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:57.680 doesn't talk about what he doesn't work kind of stuff. 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:02.560 And finally, when the Manhattan Project, the man i Hatta 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:06.400 Project excuse me, officially got going, there was a dude, 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:09.560 one one lone man, General Leslie Groves that kind of 0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:15.240 controlled the set of rules for secrecy and things got 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:19.560 a little more codified at that point through him basically saying, 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:22.160 you know, I'm gonna use whatever means I have under 0:16:22.200 --> 0:16:24.120 the law and even outside the law to make sure 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:27.080 this stuff stays a secret. Um. But it wasn't until 0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:30.560 these executive orders started rolling in. I think they called 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:34.880 stuff like restricted data and stuff like that former restricted data, 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:40.000 which actually was the progenitor of what would become declassification. 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:43.360 But uh, it's you know, it was still a little 0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:47.360 willy nilly in that it took the these executive orders 0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:50.400 and eventually Congress to really make this stuff law. And 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:53.480 at the time, even within the Manhattan Project, it was 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:55.760 still like this one guy saying, here, we can't we 0:16:55.760 --> 0:16:58.000 gotta keep her to secret or I'm gonna do something 0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:00.760 bad to you. Well, he was like the uh, like 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:04.879 the ultimate project manager. He was the sole person on 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:09.040 the planet who understood everything that was going on with 0:17:09.040 --> 0:17:12.119 the Manhattan Project. Even the top scientists didn't fully have 0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:15.720 like the entire picture. Only Leslie Groves did. Um. He 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:18.840 wouldn't let some of like the top physicists working on 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:21.720 the bomb talk to each other about their work. There 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:26.000 was a tremendous amount of compartmentalization. Mail was read and censored. 0:17:26.160 --> 0:17:28.640 There's just tons of stuff that this guy was basically saying, 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:30.879 we have to do these extreme measures to keep this 0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:33.560 under wraps. And once we enter the atomic age, you 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:38.119 can't go back. So that his ideas about the secrecy needed, 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:40.720 uh and the measures you needed to take to protect 0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:46.560 atomic secrets eventually became the the the inspiration for how 0:17:46.640 --> 0:17:51.160 America's classified information system like that was created. He he 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:54.600 created it inadvertently. He just basically came up with such 0:17:54.640 --> 0:17:58.560 a great tight set of rules that when the Atomic 0:17:58.920 --> 0:18:01.640 Energy Act of ninety forty six was created and they 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:05.480 took basically atomic research and put it to like a 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:10.680 government funded civilian research from the military, they said, basically 0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:12.880 everything grows was doing, We're just going to keep doing 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:15.560 that and codify it. Yeah, and you know how I 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:18.800 mentioned that he kind of inadvertently created declassification with the 0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:24.600 former restricted data. Uh. He also inadvertently created the derivative 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:29.600 classified designation, which is basically, if part of this project 0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:33.919 we're working on is classified, then it's all classified. Um. 0:18:34.000 --> 0:18:36.040 And you know, we'll get into the different layers of 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:38.679 classification later, but it was it was like, you know, 0:18:38.760 --> 0:18:41.359 this whole thing is a big secret. It's not just 0:18:41.480 --> 0:18:43.400 you can't talk about this one thing, and everything else 0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:46.280 is just uh, you know whatever talk about in the 0:18:46.280 --> 0:18:49.960 country club. It's no big deal. Um. And so after that, 0:18:50.040 --> 0:18:53.840 so you've got um, Congress setting the punishment for sharing 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:57.800 state secrets UM. And then you've got Leslie Groves coming 0:18:57.880 --> 0:18:59.720 up with the kind of the framework for how to 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:04.359 how to carry out a classified information system and protect information. 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:07.199 And then you've got the President's a succession of presidents 0:19:07.240 --> 0:19:09.800 starting with Roosevelt and then picked up by Truman in 0:19:09.880 --> 0:19:13.879 ninety one, issuing executive orders that really kind of spell 0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:17.480 out how these classification systems are meant to work. And 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:20.480 Truman at a top secret the top secret category in 0:19:20.560 --> 0:19:23.720 nineteen fifty one. And then the big one, UM was 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:28.399 Executive Order one oh two ninety UM, which was also 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:31.560 issued in in nineteen fifty one that said, hey, it's 0:19:31.600 --> 0:19:33.680 not just the military who has secrets that they need 0:19:33.720 --> 0:19:36.639 to keep. Basically, all of the Executive Branch needs to 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:42.080 be able to to create secret and top secret information classifications. 0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:47.320 And he extended that power to classify information to UM 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:50.800 basically every agency there was, including like the Department of 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:54.639 Agriculture and the Department of Education UM to create to 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:57.160 say Nope, this is classified, this can't be this can't 0:19:57.160 --> 0:19:59.560 be released. Yeah. They had to walk that back a 0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:02.000 couple of years later a little bit because people were 0:20:02.480 --> 0:20:04.640 worried that it was too broad and that too many 0:20:04.680 --> 0:20:08.480 people were classifying things and had access to it. So 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:12.520 they reduced the number of agencies UH in nineteen fifty 0:20:12.600 --> 0:20:16.040 three with another executive order and then what we ended 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:21.520 up with was top secret, secret, confidential, UH and restricted 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:25.359 And should we should we talk a little bit about 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:29.720 what you sent over, like how it literally works in practice. Yeah, 0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:32.480 I think that's a good spot for it. All right. 0:20:32.680 --> 0:20:35.679 So if you get a document and you you know, 0:20:35.760 --> 0:20:38.199 let's say one day you get your through a FOIA 0:20:38.320 --> 0:20:42.000 requests which we'll talk about later Free to Information Act. 0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:44.119 If you get your hands on a document and it says, 0:20:44.880 --> 0:20:48.040 you know, uh, it might have the title right there 0:20:48.720 --> 0:20:53.320 with the letter you saying that it's unclassified at this point. 0:20:53.480 --> 0:20:57.480 But with that, yeah, within the document, you're gonna have 0:20:58.040 --> 0:21:00.879 different paragraphs, are gonna have designate aations, Like one might 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:04.200 say secret, one might say confidential, one might say top secret, 0:21:04.800 --> 0:21:09.399 And this whole thing rolls up to its initial top classification. 0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:12.400 So if part of it is top secret, then all 0:21:12.440 --> 0:21:15.280 of it is top secret. But I guess the deal 0:21:15.440 --> 0:21:19.760 is is for future declassification, they want those sub designations 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:22.880 in there, is that, right, Yeah, to make it easier 0:21:22.920 --> 0:21:26.240 for the person you know, um sending the document out 0:21:26.280 --> 0:21:30.280 for a foyer requested blackout. You know, any any paragraphs 0:21:30.280 --> 0:21:34.239 that are secret confidential because part of me is like, 0:21:34.280 --> 0:21:36.280 if it's all rolls up to top secret, if one 0:21:36.280 --> 0:21:38.920 part is top secret, then what's the point of even 0:21:39.160 --> 0:21:42.040 subcategorizing it? But that doesn't make sense. So in this case, 0:21:42.119 --> 0:21:44.359 so you said that, they might have the letter you 0:21:44.560 --> 0:21:47.840 next to the title. In that case, they're saying, you 0:21:47.880 --> 0:21:51.480 can acknowledge the existence of this document and the title 0:21:51.480 --> 0:21:55.600 of this document, but the document itself is considered top secret, 0:21:55.800 --> 0:21:57.720 so you wouldn't No one would be able to see 0:21:57.720 --> 0:22:01.159 it without a top secret clearance, right, And then depending 0:22:01.160 --> 0:22:03.879 on what agency here with. They also have different terms. 0:22:04.800 --> 0:22:08.560 I think the State Department says sensitive but unclassified. Uh, 0:22:08.640 --> 0:22:11.159 the d O D and Homeland Security might use for 0:22:11.200 --> 0:22:14.560 official use only uh. And I guess the Parks Department 0:22:14.600 --> 0:22:16.520 says it would be a whole lot cooler if you 0:22:16.520 --> 0:22:21.600 didn't mention this is that from parks and wrecks from 0:22:21.600 --> 0:22:23.600 my brain just now. Oh, I liked it a lot, Chuck, 0:22:23.720 --> 0:22:27.440 I like my friend. So, um, those those ones you 0:22:27.560 --> 0:22:30.680 just said, sensitive but unclassified, these basically made up ones. 0:22:30.760 --> 0:22:32.960 Those are to keep people like you and me from 0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:36.119 being able to see this stuff. Which is a big problem, 0:22:36.160 --> 0:22:39.480 as we'll see with with classified information and over classification, 0:22:39.560 --> 0:22:41.679 is that the public is basically looped out by this 0:22:41.720 --> 0:22:43.440 whole thing, but they have a stamp. This is no 0:22:43.560 --> 0:22:51.560 dopes right, no grass, no forget so. Um. So, one 0:22:51.600 --> 0:22:53.600 of the other things that we should say is that 0:22:53.720 --> 0:22:57.159 there be you talked about derivative classification, which we'll talk 0:22:57.320 --> 0:23:00.159 more about in a second. There's also original classification, and 0:23:00.640 --> 0:23:05.120 an original classification says this new thing that we're talking about. 0:23:05.200 --> 0:23:08.840 Let's say somebody comes up with a new gun, right, 0:23:09.760 --> 0:23:13.320 somebody along the way will say, we don't want anybody 0:23:13.359 --> 0:23:15.080 to know about this gun. We certainly don't want to 0:23:15.080 --> 0:23:17.480 know how it works. So I'm going to deem this 0:23:17.520 --> 0:23:21.560 gun top secret. There's only a handful of people in 0:23:21.600 --> 0:23:23.520