1 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: This clip came across my feed the other day on Twitter, actually, 3 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: and I have to say something about it. 4 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 2: Okay, So boyfriend I have been together eight years, and 5 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 2: that's because we met really young. I was twenty when 6 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 2: we met, having got married simply because like neither of 7 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 2: us have wanted to yet. And I guess now, I 8 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 2: know a lot of people wouldn't date someone for eight 9 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 2: years without a ring, and that's totally fine, Like that's 10 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 2: your prerogative, but it works for us. Next thing is 11 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:37,319 Speaker 2: that I pay my boyfriend rent. In the past, when 12 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 2: we've rented properties together, we've split the rent. Now my 13 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 2: boyfriend has purchased a house. I'm still an adult that 14 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 2: needs a place to live and pays for the place 15 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 2: she lives. I just happened to pay that money to 16 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:48,879 Speaker 2: my boyfriend. People are upset that I'm doing this work 17 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:50,840 Speaker 2: for freed and I'm not gaining equity in this house 18 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 2: way that I look at it. And he was able 19 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 2: to buy this house because that has been a. 20 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: Goal of hit. 21 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 2: I didn't have the ability to take on that risk. 22 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 2: I don't see it as my place to like reap 23 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 2: those gains to me, it would be weird to not help, 24 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 2: just like a friend helping out. People are gonna have 25 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 2: a problem with the fact that I just referred to 26 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 2: myself as a friend, but I am my boyfriend's friend. Well, 27 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:11,919 Speaker 2: if my boyfriend dumped me tomorrow, like, yes, the gains 28 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:12,399 Speaker 2: in the house. 29 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:13,680 Speaker 3: Would be his, But I can live with that. 30 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 2: The other like little nuance is that, like, my rent 31 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 2: is pretty low. It's definitely low for the size of 32 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:22,400 Speaker 2: house we live in and the location that we are so, like, 33 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 2: if it makes you feel better, you could kind of 34 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 2: look at it as like my rent is subsidized by 35 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:28,039 Speaker 2: the work that I do. I'm doing this work because 36 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 2: it's fun and it improves the home that I live in. 37 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 2: I will now stop talking about our relationship and get 38 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 2: back to removing paint from old things. Please give us 39 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 2: a follow if you want to see how my vision 40 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 2: for this house comes to life, whether it's for me 41 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 2: or my boyfriend's future wife. 42 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 1: Now, this girl is twenty eight years old and she's 43 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 1: contributing toward the mortgage of her boyfriend, who she has 44 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 1: been dating for eight years. She says that they were 45 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: too young to get married but they live together and 46 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: now they're in their late twenties. I know I push 47 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 1: marriage on here, and this is a great example of 48 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: why what is this woman doing. I'd be so upset 49 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: if this was my daughter dating a guy for nearly 50 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 1: a decade, not on the path to marriage, and helping 51 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: him pay for the home he owns. But she does not. 52 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: You know, she says things like people are going to 53 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:19,639 Speaker 1: get upset, or this upsets people. I'm not upset for her. 54 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: I'd be upset if it was my kid. You know, 55 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: she could do whatever she wants. She's a stranger on 56 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: the internet. I think this is particularly crazy to do, 57 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: but I, you know, don't really care what strangers do. 58 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 1: So for me, i'd be upset if it were my 59 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 1: kid doing this, even without marriage. I'd point out that 60 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:41,119 Speaker 1: this guy is not interested in taking care of her. 61 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: I know women can do it for themselves. They don't 62 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 1: need no man. She mentions she's an adult whatever, But 63 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: that's ridiculous. We need each other. We take care of 64 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: each other. It's not a one way thing. She's taking 65 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 1: care of him, he's not taking care of her. To me, 66 00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: this video is a public service announcement for our to 67 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: not fool themselves into believing that living like this is 68 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 1: somehow a win, somehow this is feminism. She apparently made 69 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: this video responding to a comment that said she's getting 70 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 1: the home ready for him and his future wife to 71 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: live in. But that's how I see this ending too. 72 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:20,399 Speaker 1: You're dating for eight years. Where is this going? Why 73 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 1: wouldn't you be married yet? This makes no sense to me. 74 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 1: I mean, just the fact that she's financially helping him, 75 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 1: like build up his equity in a home that is 76 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:32,800 Speaker 1: not hers is wild to me. You're not into marriage, fine, 77 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 1: but I'll be telling my kids to not do this 78 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: pretend marriage thing where one person gets all the benefits either. 79 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: Coming up next, an interview with Inez Stepman. Welcome back 80 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: to the Carol Marcowitz Show on iHeartRadio. My guest today 81 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: is Inez Stepman, senior policy analyst for Independent Women's Forum 82 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: and host of the show high Noon. Hy Inez. 83 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 3: Hey, Carol, it's great to talk to you. 84 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: It's so nice to have you on and to see you. 85 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: We used to hang out a lot in New York, 86 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: and you know what, one of us had to move away. 87 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 3: Well I moved in, so I was I was the 88 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 3: newcomer in New York and then everyone I knew left, 89 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 3: including you. So right, because you did. 90 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:23,359 Speaker 1: The rare pandemic move to New York. What made me 91 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 1: do that? 92 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 3: My party trike is telling people. You know, imagine one 93 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,359 Speaker 3: of those horror shows where everybody's locked up trying to 94 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 3: get out of the city after an apocalypse, and there's 95 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 3: one car going in. That was me and my husband. 96 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 3: We came to New York December of twenty twenty. 97 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:41,039 Speaker 1: So what made you do a part of the it 98 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: just seems really fun to be locked in a smaller apartment. 99 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 3: Well, actually, because of the pandemic prices, were probably the 100 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 3: first people in history who went from DC to New 101 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:51,600 Speaker 3: York and got a bigger apartment and then you know, 102 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 3: booted out of that apartment based on the price increase. 103 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 3: In any case, No, we had been planning to move 104 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 3: to New York actually roughly in May of twenty twenty, 105 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 3: and then as those plans were taking place, the pandemic 106 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 3: hit and so we delayed it for a while. But 107 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 3: given the low prices and stuff, it seemed to make sense. 108 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 3: My husband had just gone remote so my husband, Jared Stepman, 109 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 3: he works for the Daily Signal, but he had gone 110 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:23,479 Speaker 3: remote before the pandemic, and so we were sort of 111 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,039 Speaker 3: free to move to New York and that was our plan. 112 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 3: So it wasn't We just kind of delayed our plan 113 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 3: by a little bit, but it was our plan to 114 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 3: move here. I just I like this, in all honesty, 115 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 3: my husband was, you know, doing me a favor by 116 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 3: moving here that Yeah, yeah, I just loved New York. 117 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 3: I've always loved New York. I've wanted to move here 118 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 3: for a decade and a half, but it never like 119 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 3: sort of practically made sense. And so so have you 120 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 3: enjoyed it? 121 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:51,359 Speaker 1: Yeah? 122 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:55,160 Speaker 3: I have. I mean, obviously it's facing a lot of problems, 123 00:05:55,240 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 3: as virtually every city is. I'm a city person. To 124 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:03,839 Speaker 3: be able as particularly to walk, I need o architecture 125 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 3: is really important to me. A certain attention to aesthetics 126 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 3: is really important to me that you don't find, I think, 127 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:12,720 Speaker 3: in a lot of American cities outside of New York. 128 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 3: So just for that daily beauty, which I realize a 129 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:18,479 Speaker 3: lot of people look at New York and they're like, oh, 130 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 3: look at the garbage. What are you talking about in 131 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:22,919 Speaker 3: the daily beauty? But I really think there is an 132 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:27,280 Speaker 3: enormous daily beauty in New York. There's a rhythm to it. 133 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 3: There are beautiful buildings that you can look at walking around. 134 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 3: It's enjoyable. It's energizing to walk around in New York. 135 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 3: So despite all of the problems, and then of course 136 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:41,719 Speaker 3: there's just the enormous amount of things you have access 137 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 3: to your culturally, artistically, just to me, day to day 138 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 3: life here is exciting and is beautiful. And so I've 139 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 3: always I've always had a romantic feeling about New York, 140 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 3: which my actual New Yorker friends always help me is 141 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 3: is cheesy and lame. 142 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: No, not at all. I think New York is a 143 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 1: beautiful city. I used to I mean, you know, I 144 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 1: was the biggest New York evangelist, New York supremacist, and 145 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: I used to like take pictures of the city and 146 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: of the bridges as I went over them or things 147 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: like that, and I would, you know, tweet, I'm sure 148 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 1: your city's nice too, but like, this is my city 149 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 1: and look at it. So I totally get that. I 150 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 1: don't like not liking New York. Like I'm you know, 151 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: I'm still deeply a New York lover overall. It's like 152 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: the child that you have to like let go of 153 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 1: and let them do their own thing because you've like 154 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 1: gotten tired of fighting for them. Maybe that's a bad 155 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: analogy because I actually, what would not stop fighting for my children, 156 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: but for my you know, for my children, I had 157 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 1: to leave New York. So that was kind of the 158 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: sad truth of it. But I love how you love 159 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: New York and that reminds me very much of the 160 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: way I felt about it, and I I love to 161 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 1: see it through your eyes. I love to watch you, 162 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: you know, become a New Yorker and really live there. 163 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: And it's been it's been great. I loved, I've been 164 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: loved to watch you. 165 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think there are certain policy consequences 166 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:16,239 Speaker 3: that you can't escape with children. Part of the reason 167 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 3: I think it's easy for us to stay here is 168 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 3: because we don't have kids. They're really I understand perfectly 169 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 3: why why you left. 170 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: I mean, in my schools and crime thousand words on it. 171 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 3: So yeah, it's schools and crime. Although I will say this, 172 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 3: crime in New York is much worse than crime in 173 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 3: New York in twenty nineteen. It's palpable, it's visible, you 174 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 3: see you know, you see it a lot more you 175 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 3: even just walking around, there are definitely more like high 176 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 3: people wandering around. There's definitely I can see my citizen 177 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 3: app taking up day by day. That being said, the 178 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:56,439 Speaker 3: focus from our own team, Carol the right on New 179 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 3: York is sort of the disaster zone of the country, 180 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 3: I think is really not accurate in terms of the 181 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 3: big cities in America, all of which are basically except 182 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:11,439 Speaker 3: for Miami maybe Dallas are making the same policy mistakes, 183 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 3: and they started not nearly as safe as New York. 184 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 3: So people seem from outside the city sometimes to think like, oh, 185 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 3: it's dangerous to walk down the street in Manhattan. It isn't. 186 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 3: It's fine. I mean, it's more unpleasant than it used 187 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 3: to be. You definitely have to be a little more 188 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 3: alert than it used to be. But comparatively to DC, 189 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 3: I mean, when I lived in DC in twenty eighteen, 190 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 3: before any of this happened, there were twelve murders within 191 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:38,559 Speaker 3: half a mile in one summer of where I lived, 192 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:40,560 Speaker 3: and I lived in a nice part of DC. Yeah, 193 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 3: so like, comparatively to that, there hasn't even been one 194 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:47,679 Speaker 3: murder in my vicinity since I moved here. 195 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 1: So that's a wind, you know. I know, I fully. 196 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:56,679 Speaker 1: The depressing part to me is that New York solved 197 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: like the mystery of ken a big city be governable? 198 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:04,319 Speaker 1: Can it be livable? And then threw it all away 199 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 1: and then just decided that that's you know, that didn't 200 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: actually happen, or that didn't work the way we wanted 201 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 1: it to or whatever. And that's like the depressing part 202 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: to me. It's not the you know, cities will have challenges. 203 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 1: I always say this, but I grew up in a 204 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:22,599 Speaker 1: much worse New York than exists now, and yet I 205 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:25,320 Speaker 1: couldn't live in this New York because this New York 206 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 1: didn't take seriously the threats that nineteen eighties New York 207 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 1: took seriously. So crime was far worse in the eighties 208 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: when I was growing up, But it wasn't a debate. 209 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: It wasn't like, what are you talking about? What crime? 210 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 1: What crime? It's a crime, you know, And that's what 211 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:44,199 Speaker 1: I felt was going on. Especially in the neighborhood that 212 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: I lived in Park Slope. It was like, literally, if 213 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: you said, you know, oh, the crime's going up and 214 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 1: I'm a little nervous about that, or can my kids 215 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 1: walk around alone the way that they could you know 216 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 1: six months ago you were racist? And how dare you 217 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: bring this up? And that's the part that I like 218 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,079 Speaker 1: could not live with. And you know, also talking about 219 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: like beauty of New York, like I one of the 220 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: things I miss, and it's funny, but like the way 221 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: people really try they like dress up, and I mean 222 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 1: it's people in Florida look good, do not get me wrong, 223 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: Like way better than like let's say, Parkslope, Brooklyn, like 224 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 1: where I felt like nobody tried it at all. But 225 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:22,440 Speaker 1: you know, so there are things about New York that 226 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: I think are beautiful and amazing and that I you know, 227 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 1: miss about them. I just hate that they threw away 228 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 1: decades of good government and good policies to you know, 229 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 1: the ideology of the moment which turned out to be 230 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: you know, fools gold. 231 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it is a tragedy. And coming from 232 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 3: California originally and from the San Francisco area, I mean 233 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:48,439 Speaker 3: I had a front seat to the tragedy that is 234 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:51,560 Speaker 3: San Francisco. Am I view much worse than New York, 235 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 3: even though they start out with a baseline of like 236 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 3: San Francisco is has a very very small black population 237 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 3: for example, which does core relate with the crime rate. 238 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 3: San Francisco is incredibly wealthy. It's much smaller than New York. 239 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 3: Like all the demographics of San Francisco would point to 240 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 3: the fact that it should be as it was, which 241 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 3: was like an incredibly safe city when I was growing up. 242 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 3: I mean I used to go when I was fourteen, 243 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 3: fifteen years old. I used to walk around and then 244 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 3: Tenorline District by myself as a teenager. There was no 245 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 3: question that that was fine. I mean, yeah, there were 246 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:28,839 Speaker 3: there were some people doing drugs at San Francisco, very 247 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 3: you know, there were some homeless people. It was San Francisco. 248 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 3: But the there was a really real tipping point, and 249 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 3: it was entirely as you say, it's like entirely the 250 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 3: choice of people who live there to throw away all 251 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 3: of the natural beauty of San Francisco, natural safety of 252 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 3: San Francisco, everything that's wonderful about San Francisco to just 253 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 3: like put it in the trash can and in San 254 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 3: Francisco at actually the tipping point, I don't imagine how 255 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 3: bad it's gotten, although I've seen plenty of the reporting 256 00:12:58,000 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 3: and stuff, but the tipping point really was twenty five 257 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 3: ten twenty sixteen where the actual experience of the city. 258 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 3: And again, I'm a city person. I'm not somebody who 259 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:11,080 Speaker 3: is shocked by seeing a homeless person on the corner 260 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 3: or all fighting or whatever. But in twenty sixteen it 261 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 3: became San Francisco. The actual enjoyment of being in the city, 262 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 3: the walking around, the sitting in the cafe, all of 263 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 3: that started to very aggressively be impacted by the fact 264 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 3: that the city basically threw open the doors to every 265 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 3: drug drug addict in America and said, hey, shoot up here, 266 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 3: why would you do that? You know, you know, look, 267 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 3: they have their their idiot rationales. But it very very 268 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 3: clearly fell off a cliff at that point. So I 269 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 3: share your sense of tragedy. I do think there's a 270 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 3: couple institutions in New York that are keeping it from 271 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 3: going completely nuts, at least for now, because obviously the 272 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:00,040 Speaker 3: City Council is insane and they all have to go 273 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 3: down the same path as DC, as Seattle, San Francisco. 274 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: Right, And it's funny because there are more Republicans now 275 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:12,200 Speaker 1: on the New York City Council than like in decades. 276 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:16,559 Speaker 1: It's just the leftist on the city Council. The Democrats 277 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 1: have become far left, is really what happened. So you 278 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: have actually more quantity of Republicans. I think this five now, 279 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: which was unheard of in you know, the last number 280 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 1: of years. But the Democrats have just become insane. 281 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 3: Crazy, I mean yeah, and it's They do have two institutions, 282 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 3: like I said that I think help balance a little bit. 283 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 3: One is that the NYPD is the best force in 284 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 3: the world. I really believe that. I mean, it's remarkable 285 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 3: what they're able to do when they're allowed to do it. 286 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 3: And they're very large force, like per capita comparatively to 287 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 3: a lot of these other cities. So there are the 288 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 3: cops to put on corners and they're very well organized. 289 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 3: And then they we have clout apparently behind the scenes, right, 290 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 3: I mean, the police union is still a big deal 291 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 3: in New York politically in the way that it's completely 292 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 3: non existent, and I can demonstrate very easily how that 293 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 3: works between DC and New York. I cannot imagine. And Carol, 294 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 3: you've spent plenty of time in DC. Can you imagine 295 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 3: the kind of parade that was put on for the 296 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 3: fallen officers maybe two years ago, where you have just 297 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 3: like hundreds, maybe thousands of cops marching down the street 298 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 3: in New York. For that would never happen in San Francisco. 299 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 3: It would just never happen in DC because there's such 300 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 3: a hostility to the cops. There still is like a 301 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 3: pride in the police force here among average people, and 302 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 3: I think that's really important, and it gives them the 303 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 3: clout I assume a little bit behind the scenes, although 304 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 3: I'm sure that their lives are much worse than they 305 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 3: used to be. Don't get me wrong again, I'm not 306 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 3: down comparatively to these other cities. 307 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: That's really interesting. I've really never thought of that, but yeah, 308 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 1: they're absolutely. 309 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 3: You should think about the second one, which is that 310 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 3: they have the New York Post. Yeah, wow, which there's 311 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 3: no major daily newspaper with a actual city readership. There 312 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 3: are conservative journals and so on. 313 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, everybody needs the Post. Yeah, like everybody across 314 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 1: the political spectrum in New York has always read the Post. 315 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 3: They will just post reports on crime, and the Post 316 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 3: hosts conservative opinion. And the fact that that's a daily 317 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 3: newspaper in New York that's in everybody's padega like that, people, 318 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 3: ordinary people a political people not like you and me 319 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 3: read I think is an enormous asset for the city 320 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 3: and keeping it going completely insane. Now, maybe all those 321 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 3: things will be overcome and the left will steamroll or 322 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 3: all of those things. 323 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 1: But let's root for New York, like you know, I hope, 324 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 1: I hope they don't. I hope that the voices of 325 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 1: sanity within and you get to live in a beautiful, 326 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: safe New York the way that I remember that it 327 00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: should be right now, But you know, isn't for a 328 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: lot of reasons. So what do you mostly work on 329 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 1: at IWF? I mean, I obviously read a lot of 330 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,719 Speaker 1: your stuff, but what would my listeners want to know 331 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:10,680 Speaker 1: about what you do? 332 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 3: So I have a kind of funny hodgepodge of issues. 333 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 3: I did do more than a decade as an education 334 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:21,400 Speaker 3: policy analyst, so I still do some education stuff some 335 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 3: I mean school choice K twelve policy stuff. I also 336 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:29,639 Speaker 3: have been working a lot on higher ed recently. So 337 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 3: I have a proposal out to tax the university sector 338 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 3: for a loan forgiveness, and I think this is going 339 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 3: to be I think this has the potential to be 340 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 3: a huge win for the right. There is an enormous 341 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 3: pressure to forgive student loans, and I think we often 342 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 3: talk about it as a matter of individual responsibility, which 343 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 3: it is. I'm not saying that the EIGHTEENEP signing on 344 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 3: the dotted line, you know, didn't legally incur that debt, 345 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 3: but the entire system since the nineteen sixties really has 346 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,439 Speaker 3: been structured to push as many people prepared or not 347 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 3: into college as possible. And I think it's a little 348 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:14,159 Speaker 3: too much to assume that the average eighteen year old 349 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 3: is more financially savvy than the US Congress that put 350 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 3: these these loans government loans in front of basically every 351 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 3: every high school graduate in America. The universities get their 352 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 3: money upfront, so they're you know, they're rolling in. They've 353 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 3: created enor miss wealth from this policy that is directly 354 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 3: directly financed by the US taxpayer, and you know, everyone 355 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 3: else is kind of screwed, right, The taxpayer is screwed 356 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 3: because by the way we hold all these loans. So 357 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:45,159 Speaker 3: if a large proportion, as is predicted, default on the 358 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 3: student loans, and it could be anywhere from fifty to 359 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:52,400 Speaker 3: sixty percent, that those are like reasonable estimates of how 360 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 3: much like what default rate we're likely to see. We 361 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,360 Speaker 3: already own all those loans that Department of Education owns 362 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 3: ninety three or some of those loans. You know, there's 363 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:03,919 Speaker 3: those companies like Moela or Mohela whatever it's called, or 364 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 3: Naviant before it. They're just managers of their hired guns 365 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 3: to manage the loans and collect payments. But the US 366 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:13,400 Speaker 3: government owns that debt, so we're already on the hook 367 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:17,440 Speaker 3: for it. I think we will have a default bailout, 368 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 3: whether we like it or not, by default. So to 369 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:24,639 Speaker 3: my mind, the fair way to do this is to 370 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,719 Speaker 3: take some of that enormous wealth that's been amassed on 371 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 3: the basis of the backs of the US taxpayer by 372 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 3: institutions that are overtly hostile, and I don't think anyone 373 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:37,160 Speaker 3: can argue that point in twenty twenty four, overtly hostile 374 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 3: to everything that's good about this country and about America. 375 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,360 Speaker 3: To take the money from those institutions and use it 376 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:50,160 Speaker 3: to essentially settle up with those who were preyed upon, 377 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 3: frankly by this system, by this promise that if you 378 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:55,919 Speaker 3: take on this debt and go to a four year school, 379 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 3: oftentimes a four year school, you're totally academically unprepared for 380 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,920 Speaker 3: because the graduation rates only sixty percent. These schools were 381 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 3: admitting people because everybody comes with the government check that 382 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:07,880 Speaker 3: they get up FROMT So a lot of those defaults 383 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 3: are people who are admitted to schools that had no 384 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 3: chance of ever graduating from for the money for two 385 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 3: or three years and they are stuck with the debt 386 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,880 Speaker 3: and they have no degree and anyway, Like, I could 387 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 3: talk forever about this, but I think that there is 388 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 3: a lot of merit to taxing universities for this. For 389 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 3: the right, I see it as a twofer. We hit 390 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:31,120 Speaker 3: our institutional enemies because that's what they are, and we 391 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,919 Speaker 3: justly make the people who have made money off of 392 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 3: this system pay for the fallout of it instead of 393 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 3: the US taxpayer and the majority of Americans without a 394 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 3: four year degree, you know, redistributing their wealth towards paying 395 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 3: off loans for people who did go to college, who 396 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 3: did go to for example, law school, which seems blatantly regressive. 397 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, so who is opposed to this politically? Like, obviously 398 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: the colleges are against it, but who I conceive the 399 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 1: argument from both the Republican and the Democrat side of 400 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 1: why this is a great idea. 401 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:04,479 Speaker 3: Democrats don't see it that way, because I think they 402 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:08,360 Speaker 3: know better than Republicans who their friends are. The real 403 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:12,360 Speaker 3: political question is why have Republicans been willing to fund 404 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 3: universities at such an extreme rate and give them such 405 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 3: a special little deal from the federal government for so 406 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 3: many years when university has always been overtly hostile to 407 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 3: everything Republicans believe in. That's the question. It's a matter 408 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,479 Speaker 3: of political will on the right. If Republicans prioritize this, 409 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,200 Speaker 3: I think that we could very well drive a wedge 410 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 3: between Democratic politicians who know that the universities aren't incredibly 411 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:42,640 Speaker 3: valuable in doctor nation resource to them, and Democratic voters 412 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:46,199 Speaker 3: because you know, look the kids with these loans, they 413 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:49,679 Speaker 3: don't care if it comes from Harvard, right, They're happy 414 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:52,679 Speaker 3: to have them bailed out. Right. So I was on 415 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 3: Doctor phil Weirdly enough, he did a series at the end, 416 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,439 Speaker 3: he did a series of like policy chats, we're on 417 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 3: various political issues. And I think I convinced a fair 418 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 3: number because everyone came on there saying I need my 419 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:05,159 Speaker 3: student loans bailed out, and I think I got a 420 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:09,120 Speaker 3: fair number of them convinced. You know, yeah, it's right 421 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:11,679 Speaker 3: that the university should pay for this and not, you know, 422 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:13,919 Speaker 3: people who didn't go to college. That's not fair. So 423 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 3: I think it would be a very politically smart argument 424 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:18,119 Speaker 3: for the Republicans to make. I think it would put 425 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:21,400 Speaker 3: a lot of pressure on Democrats, and I think more 426 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:25,679 Speaker 3: than anything, it would politically cut off the knees from 427 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 3: a strategy that Biden used in the midterms. I'm pretty 428 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 3: sure he will use going forward in this twenty four election, 429 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 3: which is to promise a bailout he knows is going 430 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 3: to get knocked down by the court to get young 431 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 3: people out to vote. It worked for them in the midterms, 432 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:47,959 Speaker 3: and Republicans can destroy that political talking point. They can 433 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 3: provide a real solution for people who are legitimately struggling 434 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 3: with what in any other context we would call predatory loans. Yeah, 435 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 3: and they can hit their institutional enemies and make it 436 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 3: a wedge issue on the line. I just I don't 437 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 3: see a downside to the right pushing this jd Vance 438 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 3: has introduced something real similar to my proposal. It wouldn't 439 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 3: be very difficult for Republicans to tax at university endowments. 440 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 3: For example, there already is a very, very very tiny 441 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 3: tax and the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, Well, that 442 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:19,919 Speaker 3: would be required would be to expand that tax and 443 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 3: treat them like the hedge funds that they are. 444 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:24,120 Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break and be right 445 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:30,119 Speaker 1: back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. So what would you 446 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 1: be doing as a career if you weren't doing this, 447 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:37,159 Speaker 1: if you weren't doing policy, if you weren't writing What 448 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:41,400 Speaker 1: would be then? As plan B, do I. 449 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:43,440 Speaker 3: Get booted off as a tradwife if I say I'd 450 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 3: rather just like arrange flowers at home and paint my 451 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:49,400 Speaker 3: apartment different colors? 452 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: Wait, who's booting you? This is like, this is a 453 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: safe space. 454 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,119 Speaker 3: I don't know, Like in terms of professional work, I 455 00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 3: think i'd make a pretty good architect. Actually was a 456 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 3: good at math. It was pretty good at sketching, and 457 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 3: I really enjoy looking at buildings. I don't have any 458 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,159 Speaker 3: extent of knowledge and architecture other than what I like. 459 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 1: But that's okay, this is fantasy, you know a series of. 460 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 3: My skills, like the sort of design and aesthetic element 461 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:20,879 Speaker 3: with the mathematical uh and an analytical kind of that's 462 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:22,919 Speaker 3: more what I'm good at. I'm not like, I'm not 463 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 3: an artiste, but I think the combination of aesthetic and 464 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 3: mathematics would it appeal to me? There was no I 465 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 3: looked for courses in it, but there weren't any of 466 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 3: my university. 467 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 1: I think i'd be a DJ. I think that would 468 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 1: be make me see it, you know, I feel like 469 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: I need I know how to get the party going. 470 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 1: I also enjoyed planning travel, so maybe a travel agent. 471 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,639 Speaker 1: I like those two, like you know fields, but I, 472 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,919 Speaker 1: you know, trad wife was the original plan for me. 473 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,680 Speaker 1: I don't know how I got off that track. And 474 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 1: my husband sometimes says, you know, he signed up for 475 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 1: a stay at home mom, stayed at home wife, and 476 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 1: I decided to go have a career, which is like 477 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:06,639 Speaker 1: a crazy thing to do. So you know, anything is possible, really, 478 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 1: is what I'm saying here. Do you feel like you've 479 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:10,920 Speaker 1: made it? 480 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 3: You sent me this question in advance, and I still 481 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 3: don't know how to answer it. I think I don't 482 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,439 Speaker 3: think I've made it. I would say that there are 483 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,880 Speaker 3: things that I'm more grateful about in my career as 484 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 3: the years go on, especially in this environment. The fact 485 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:33,359 Speaker 3: that I have the freedom, enormous freedom, even within our profession. 486 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,360 Speaker 3: I'm so grateful for to IWF for providing this. I mean, 487 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 3: they don't have a one voice policy. They really do hire, 488 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 3: you know, a variety of smart women with a variety 489 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 3: of views from you know, moderate independent all the way 490 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:52,880 Speaker 3: to conservative, like I'm clearly conservative. But they really do 491 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:59,479 Speaker 3: an enormous job of supporting women who want to make 492 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 3: an argument about X, Y and z. That kind of 493 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 3: freedom is when I think about, oh, like, would I 494 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 3: rather be an architect or something like that. You know, 495 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 3: there are ways in which I'd rather do that. But 496 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 3: on the other hand, there is no escape from politics now. 497 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 3: Right when I think about what the corporate office politics 498 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 3: is like now, when I think about the things that 499 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:26,400 Speaker 3: are allegedly offensive or like a problem for HR, I'm 500 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 3: incredibly grateful that I don't have that kind of job. 501 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 1: I would be able to tolerate it for HR. 502 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, I've never talked to HR, I've never used HR. 503 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 3: I don't anyway, I'm enormously grateful for that, and I 504 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 3: feel like it's a rare, a rare thing now to 505 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 3: be able to work in our current environment, which maybe 506 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 3: you agree or don't, I think it is pretty close 507 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 3: to not like Stalinism, you know, not like being thrown 508 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 3: in the Gulag. But by the time you get to 509 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 3: the Soviet Union in like the seventies right where yer structure. Yeah, 510 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,160 Speaker 3: very different structure, and there's lots of there's a long 511 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 3: discussion we had about like the similarities and differences. But 512 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 3: in terms of the feeling of wait, you know, you 513 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 3: just don't share your opinions unless you really know the 514 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:25,640 Speaker 3: people you know, like who you're talking to. Uh, there's 515 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 3: just all these like trip wires. You can't really you 516 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 3: can't really just do your business and have your friends 517 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 3: and live your life. Like the political system is intruding 518 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 3: into that private sphere in a very direct way. And 519 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 3: I'm yeah, I think in that context all the more 520 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,720 Speaker 3: grateful to to have a position I do, because I don't. 521 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 3: I don't think I deal very well with, you know, 522 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,679 Speaker 3: being told that something that I'm saying is offensive and 523 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 3: therefore like I'm gonna lose my job and having to 524 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 3: balance those two things. I have the utmost sympathy for 525 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 3: people who feel they have to have to do that. Like, 526 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 3: I'm not naive about it at all. I don't think 527 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 3: everybody needs to be so John Needson, right, I'm not 528 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 3: and I don't mean just in talent. I mean that 529 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,359 Speaker 3: I'm not directly threatened that way. And I don't know 530 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 3: what I would do if saying what I say meant 531 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 3: that I couldn't make rent absolutely. 532 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,880 Speaker 1: You know, I found an essay that I wrote in college, 533 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: where I was already an open conservative, but I wrote 534 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 1: about how the traditional family was outdated, and of course, 535 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 1: you see, I got an a on it, and I remember, 536 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't remember this, but I don't remember 537 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 1: particularly writing this essay actually, but I remember having to 538 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 1: kind of adjust my opinions to what I knew the 539 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 1: professor wanted to hear. Because what was the point, really, 540 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 1: I was there to get the good grades? 541 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:47,719 Speaker 3: Men? 542 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 1: Who cared what my professor thought about what? You know, 543 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 1: what I thought? Why would I need to debate him 544 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 1: or argue out my point? You want to hear that 545 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 1: the modern families, you know, the traditional families outdated like 546 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 1: here you go, hey, yeah, my dad. 547 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 3: Like like you as you know, but for your audience, 548 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 3: my family comes from communist Poland, so sort of similar 549 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 3: Warsaw packed style background, and my dad even in my 550 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 3: high school in Palo Alto and the like mid two thousands, 551 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:23,479 Speaker 3: I mean, he had that feeling about, oh, like you're 552 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 3: getting assignments that you know what you're supposed to write. Yeah, 553 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 3: and he was like, this is like being in the 554 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 3: This is like being in communist Poland, like the you know, 555 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 3: the proletariator always oppressed, they always rise up, like you 556 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 3: know what you're supposed to write, and it's the same 557 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 3: same stuff. And that was like, I think the early 558 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 3: wave of that, but it was already there in the 559 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 3: in the two thousands and in public school, right, it 560 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 3: was already the vision that America had. America's sins are 561 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 3: so much greater than her triumphs that course are unique, 562 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:59,239 Speaker 3: and her triumphs are irrelevant, right, and yeah, and it 563 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 3: is like it it again. I don't want to. 564 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 1: Over no, I get I never plugged my book on 565 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 1: my show. But like in Stolen Youth book that we 566 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 1: published my co author Bethany Mandel and I in March, 567 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 1: it opens with a history chapter which compares a lot 568 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 1: of what's going on right now to what has happened 569 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 1: into talitarian societies in the past. And we're not saying 570 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 1: that anybody gets thrown in a gulag right now or 571 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 1: you know, like that, but there's definitely some threads that 572 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 1: of connection that are obvious. And I think that if people, 573 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: you know, don't see them, then maybe they're saying what 574 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 1: they're supposed to be saying, and maybe that's why. 575 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, a friend of mine told me a story. He's 576 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 3: a professor and I won't use the names or whatever, 577 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 3: but told me a story about a graduate student of 578 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 3: his from Belarus. And for people who have not followed it, 579 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 3: there were huge uprisings in Belarus and twenty twenty and 580 00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 3: after basically a very obviously faked election, and it's known 581 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 3: Lukashenko there is known as eelast dictator in Europe obviously 582 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 3: like stealing everybody all the money, like blind stealing from 583 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 3: his people. And in any case, there were a lot 584 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 3: of protests there and unrest. And the Spelarusian student was 585 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 3: talking to her professor and she said, you know, when 586 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 3: I first came to America, I had the idea that 587 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 3: it was like a free country, you know, And I 588 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 3: was amazed by this fact and I thought, it's, oh, 589 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 3: it's how incredible, Like everyone can say whatever they think 590 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 3: about politics without this kind of fear. And then she 591 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 3: literally physically leaned forward, looked behind her and said, I've 592 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,479 Speaker 3: learned you just have different trip wires, Like there are 593 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,959 Speaker 3: different things you're not supposed to say here, and like 594 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 3: the physical act of like leaning forward and checking behind 595 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 3: you before you say what you're going to say, Like 596 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 3: this itself is so emblematic to me of how we've 597 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 3: lost the freedom that America is known for or was 598 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 3: known for around the world. 599 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I fully agree with you, And look, I do 600 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 1: it myself. I could think of times in the past 601 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 1: where I looked around before I said something in a restaurant, 602 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 1: and you know, I had to be careful about who 603 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: could hear what or not to have an altercation or something. 604 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 1: So it's sad, and I hope we are climbing out 605 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 1: of it because I do feel like wokeness and this 606 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 1: whole you know, insane culture is coming to an end 607 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 1: because it just can't last. You know, eventually you run 608 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 1: out of victims because it's a circular firing squad and 609 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 1: everybody's getting hit. What would you say is our largest 610 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 1: cultural or societal problem and do you think that it's solvable. 611 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 3: I think the largest problem is probably a loneliness. I 612 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 3: think it's a small, ill liberal problem. Some people would 613 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 3: call it atomization. I think we're discovering that the unchosen relationships, 614 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 3: the things that are not entered into as a matter 615 00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 3: of contract and benefit and detriment, are very, very very 616 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 3: difficult to maintain in a civilization as prosperous as ours. 617 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 3: And you see it a lot in the sex wars 618 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 3: right where if you look at in almost every country, 619 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 3: you have single women politically pulling way, way, way away 620 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 3: from single men. All these single women are left leaning, 621 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 3: the men are actually they're leaning right and turning a 622 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 3: little more right, but like it's not a comparable turn. 623 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 3: But if you look at the numbers and a long 624 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 3: term look at the numbers in the United States of 625 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 3: women voting Republican, married women vote Republican married men vote Republican. 626 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 3: Single men vote, Republican single women vote, you know, buy 627 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 3: a margin or thirty or more points vote Democrat. I 628 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 3: think those politics are a reflection of not and even 629 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,240 Speaker 3: the extremes of the sex war on the right and 630 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 3: the left. Now where you see like the manosphere, which 631 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 3: I think originally had a lot of good points and 632 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 3: I consider myself sort of adjacent to it, now it 633 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:01,960 Speaker 3: really does seems sort of at least some portion of it. 634 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 3: I don't want to broaden out. It really does seem 635 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 3: like hate women for being women, which I find is 636 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:11,479 Speaker 3: ludicrous as hating men for being men. But I think 637 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 3: those sexual politics burn real hot because we don't have 638 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,719 Speaker 3: in real life ties. I mean, the average American is 639 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 3: now born into a family that's either never you know, 640 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 3: their parents either never married or to their parents are 641 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:30,040 Speaker 3: divorced before they're eighteen. Right, we have fewer siblings on average, 642 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:35,200 Speaker 3: smaller family size, all of those things, I think, And 643 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,440 Speaker 3: then you enter the dating market, and there's just an 644 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:42,399 Speaker 3: endless number of hours of podcasting tape quote unquote on 645 00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:47,839 Speaker 3: the just general screwed uppitness of the dating scene. Right, 646 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 3: So it's very easy in our society now to never 647 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,760 Speaker 3: to go. Oh. And the final point, friendship is totally collapsed. 648 00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:58,920 Speaker 3: Right if you look even since the nineties, the percentage 649 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,080 Speaker 3: of people who say they have say more than five 650 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:05,440 Speaker 3: friends completely collapsing in the toilet. So it's very possible 651 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,799 Speaker 3: that you can now it's very common to grow up 652 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:13,960 Speaker 3: in a broken home without any you know, close relationships 653 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 3: with siblings of the opposite sex, without a good relationship 654 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:22,720 Speaker 3: with your parent of the opposite sex, and then without 655 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 3: any real good friends of the opposite sex, and then 656 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,840 Speaker 3: your only interaction with the opposite sex is like messages 657 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:32,880 Speaker 3: on dating apps, right, And I can see why that 658 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:36,920 Speaker 3: would make somebody form a very negative opinion that the 659 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:37,560 Speaker 3: opposite sex. 660 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:38,399 Speaker 1: Great point. 661 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:42,239 Speaker 3: Yeah, so yeah, I mean, I think it's it's not 662 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 3: just about sexual relationships, but about friendship, about family relationships, 663 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,319 Speaker 3: we just have fewer of those thick ties. And and 664 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:56,440 Speaker 3: the problem with liberalism and prosperity large which I'm I'm 665 00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 3: a fan of both to some degree, right, is that 666 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:02,839 Speaker 3: the short term preference of people, you know, having those 667 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:05,879 Speaker 3: kinds of thick community ties. And I think your own, 668 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:09,160 Speaker 3: like very public, beautiful writings about your relationship with Judaism 669 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:13,239 Speaker 3: and the Jewish community demonstrate this very well. Those thick 670 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 3: ties are not easy or pleasant a lot of the time, right, 671 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 3: Like there's a lot of conflict in small towns between 672 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:25,640 Speaker 3: church ladies and right, those things are not necessarily pleasant. 673 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,840 Speaker 3: Family relationships are not always pleasant, They're in difficult, and 674 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,720 Speaker 3: so the short term interest of a lot of people 675 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,439 Speaker 3: is to basically say, well, I'm going to do me right, 676 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:38,960 Speaker 3: I'm going to do me and I'm not going to 677 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:43,680 Speaker 3: be constricted by those relationships, those deeper, unchosen relationships, because 678 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 3: any serious relationship constricts what you can do obviously like marriage, 679 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:51,320 Speaker 3: what you can do sexually, right, But any deep relationship 680 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,160 Speaker 3: is exclusionary by nature. It means that two people are 681 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 3: going to have to make room for each other in 682 00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:57,920 Speaker 3: what they want to do and what they want to 683 00:36:57,920 --> 00:36:59,719 Speaker 3: say and what they want to you know, there's a 684 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:03,840 Speaker 3: negociation there. That negotiation is not always pleasant, especially short term, 685 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:06,640 Speaker 3: and I think what we're seeing is the short term 686 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:11,719 Speaker 3: incentive is to dump those relationships, and in the long 687 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:12,719 Speaker 3: term that's killing us. 688 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:15,840 Speaker 1: So do you think that's solvable. 689 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't know if we'll be able 690 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 3: to come up with something to replace the fear of destitution, 691 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,359 Speaker 3: right because you didn't keep with your family because it 692 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,560 Speaker 3: was always pleasant. You kept with your family because you 693 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,040 Speaker 3: might be out on the street and starving, right, And 694 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:39,840 Speaker 3: that's all you know, same reason that divorce was much lower. 695 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,680 Speaker 3: It's yes, it's social convention, but that social convention also 696 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:47,160 Speaker 3: comes from, you know, the very real fear of losing 697 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 3: your children, of being cast out. I don't know, Like 698 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,600 Speaker 3: I don't want to return to a uh to destitution 699 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:02,359 Speaker 3: that's not that's not solution. So I don't know if 700 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,520 Speaker 3: we'll be able to come up with something that. I mean, 701 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 3: maybe we are smart enough as a species to start 702 00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:12,960 Speaker 3: considering these long term interests, but maybe not. But I 703 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 3: will say that the direction we're currently going forget about 704 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,040 Speaker 3: politics on this question. The direction we're curling going is 705 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:23,319 Speaker 3: all downhill. The therapeutic language of how to speak to 706 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:29,359 Speaker 3: people is actually deeply horrifying to me in a pre 707 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 3: political way. It bothers me if it places distance, all 708 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:36,480 Speaker 3: the time, distance between people to talk to them in 709 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:39,640 Speaker 3: this like, well, you're intruding on my boundaries. So that's 710 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:43,920 Speaker 3: what friendship is. You know, if you have everybody outside 711 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 3: your boundaries, you have no friends. 712 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:50,880 Speaker 1: Right, that's absolutely right. I'm reading Abigail Schreyer's Bad Therapy 713 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:51,359 Speaker 1: right now. 714 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:52,759 Speaker 3: I can't wait to cry that. 715 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,640 Speaker 1: Oh it's amazing. It's so good. I can't put it down. 716 00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:59,799 Speaker 1: It's really a great book. It's coming out soon and 717 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:04,279 Speaker 1: Bad Therapy by Abigail Schreier highly highly recommend it. So 718 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,000 Speaker 1: I love talking to you. This has been awesome. And 719 00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:11,719 Speaker 1: here with your best tip for my listeners on how 720 00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:14,799 Speaker 1: they can improve their lives. 721 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 3: Through dinner parties. Talk to people in real life. I 722 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 3: think that parties might save us. 723 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:28,520 Speaker 1: I feel like that's probably true. All right, throw parties. 724 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:30,719 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Anez, thank you for coming on, 725 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:31,520 Speaker 1: love talking to you. 726 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:33,200 Speaker 3: Thanks so much, Carol, it's been great. 727 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,279 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for joining us on the Carol Marcowitch Show. 728 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:38,920 Speaker 1: Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.