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Speaker 1: All right, guys, we have a new effort from Democrats

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Speaker 1: to try to block former President Trump from running for

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Speaker 1: president again. This goes back to his actions on and

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Speaker 1: around January sixth. Let's go and put this up on

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Speaker 1: the screen from Common Dreams. They say, you don't get

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Speaker 1: to lead a government you tried to destroy. House Democrats

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Speaker 1: moved to block a Trump twenty twenty four run. Here

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Speaker 1: is the lead here in the justification they're using, they

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Speaker 1: say more than forty House Democrats introduced the legislation to

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Speaker 1: bar Trump from the twenty twenty four ballots, citing the

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Speaker 1: Fourteenth Amendment clause prohibiting insurrectionists from holding federal office. They

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Speaker 1: go on to explain Section three of the Fourteenth Amendment

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Speaker 1: bars from federal office anyone who quote, having previously taken

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Speaker 1: an oath as a member of Congress, or as an

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Speaker 1: officer of the United States, or as member of any

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Speaker 1: state legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of

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Speaker 1: any State, to support the Constitution of the United States,

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Speaker 1: shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same,

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Speaker 1: or give an aid or comfort to the enemies there of.

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Speaker 1: Section five states that Congress shall have the power to

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Speaker 1: enforce by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article. So

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Speaker 1: they're saying, if you took an oath to the Constitution

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Speaker 1: and then you basically engage in insurrection or rebellion, you

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Speaker 1: are barred from federal office, and Congress has the power

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Speaker 1: to enforce this by appropriate legislation. I sort of had

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Speaker 1: to go back to the memory bank because right after

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Speaker 1: January start January tenth, there was a lot of discussion

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Speaker 1: of this mechanism, of other mechanisms to keep Trump from

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Speaker 1: running for office. I mean, my position has been for

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Speaker 1: the Democrats and the Republicans the whole time. If you

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Speaker 1: were going to make this kind of move, that was

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Speaker 1: the moment. Yeah, obviously, right, It's like, why are we

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Speaker 1: playing this entire movie over again. It's so funny because

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Speaker 1: not even the top Democratic leadership has signed onto this,

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Speaker 1: despite the fact that some forty house stems are pushing it.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I mean a certain it's like, what

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Speaker 1: do you hope to really accomplish at this point with this?

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Speaker 1: You either move, then you come at the King best

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Speaker 1: not miss. He went at him and he missed. Like,

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Speaker 1: at the end of the day, there's not much you

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Speaker 1: can do about it, And actually, at this point, I

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Speaker 1: don't even know why you would go through with this

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Speaker 1: when look, of course there's a chance that Trump could

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Speaker 1: still win the presidency, but clearly like midterms did not

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Speaker 1: go his way or even close to his way. That's

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Speaker 1: what I would just focus on. So actually easier to

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Speaker 1: accomplish just keep branding all Republicans as MAGA stopped the

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Speaker 1: steal and elevate them. That's the right thing to do.

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Speaker 1: I think at this point we've had enough examples of

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Speaker 1: you know, Democrats really trying to undermine Trump, to remove

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Speaker 1: him from office, to impeach him, to persuade the Republican

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Speaker 1: base that this guy's a disaster and they shouldn't go

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Speaker 1: along with him. I think we've had enough chances at

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Speaker 1: that to realize he is not going to be gone

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Speaker 1: until the Republican base decides they are done with him.

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Speaker 1: And there might have been a chance for the Republican

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Speaker 1: party elites right after January sixth, And this is something

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Speaker 1: I've talked about a lot, you know, Mitch McConnell kind

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Speaker 1: of trial balloon out there. Maybe we will vote to

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Speaker 1: convict him in the Senate, Maybe we really will remove

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Speaker 1: him from office. And bar him from running again and

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Speaker 1: effectively put it out there. And a couple days later,

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Speaker 1: you know, looked like the base was getting back behind him,

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Speaker 1: and the initial some of the initial horn shalk of

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Speaker 1: January sixth started to wear off. They were getting their

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Speaker 1: narratives together too, and you know, in defense of him,

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Speaker 1: and he effectively backed down. And maybe there was a

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Speaker 1: chance then, maybe not. But at this point, it's just

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Speaker 1: it's not going to happen until and unless the voting

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Speaker 1: public in the Republican Party decides they are ready to

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Speaker 1: move on from him, that may well happen. And you know,

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Speaker 1: clearly the American people as a whole decided in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty they were ready to move on from him. And

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Speaker 1: I think even if he ends up being the Republican nominee,

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Speaker 1: which I think there's still a good chance of, I

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Speaker 1: find it much more. I find it much harder to

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Speaker 1: imagine that the general public at large is going to

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Speaker 1: elect this guy as president again, and ultimately, you know,

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Speaker 1: the rejection of the people is the idea end goal

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Speaker 1: of the whole Trump era. I totally agree. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: far would better have it happen democratically again than any

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Speaker 1: other way, which I always think is the best course.

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Speaker 1: Secretary of Transportation Pete Budajedge, it seems is too good

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Speaker 1: for the rest of us. He's been flying private, it

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Speaker 1: turns out a whole bunch of times. Let's put it

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Speaker 1: up there on the screen. Secretary Bota Judge has now

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Speaker 1: flown almost twenty times on taxpayer funded jets. Now I

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Speaker 1: really enjoy the way that they justify this crystal. They

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Speaker 1: say that the government only flies private whenever it's actually

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Speaker 1: cheaper to do so. One of the flights, however, that

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Speaker 1: Secretary Buddha Judge took, was actually from Washington to Las Vegas. Now,

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Speaker 1: having taken that flight before, I actually know there is

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Speaker 1: like a direct Southwest Airlines flight that you could easily

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Speaker 1: take DC to Vegas, which you could take for let's

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Speaker 1: say a couple one hundred dollars. There is no way

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Speaker 1: in hell that it is somehow cheaper even if you

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Speaker 1: were to buy like twenty five tickets to chart an

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Speaker 1: assess a private plane and fly from Washington to Vegas

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Speaker 1: on official business. And that is just one of many

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Speaker 1: of these uses by Secretary budhaj Edge. So people know

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Speaker 1: costing renting one of these planes charges five thousand dollars

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Speaker 1: per hour to the taxpayer five thousand per hour, so impossible,

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Speaker 1: and the only justification is whenever you're traveling to like

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Speaker 1: a place with a very very small airport, and I

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Speaker 1: guess it would take many hours to do so. But

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Speaker 1: then even there, federal rules prevent them from doing this

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Speaker 1: unless they can technically justify it's cheaper. I honestly think

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Speaker 1: that some of these need to be looked into, because

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Speaker 1: if you remember, we had Secretary Tom Price to actually

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Speaker 1: resign in twenty seventeen for his private jets use, private

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Speaker 1: jet use, that's right. I mean, it seems to me,

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Speaker 1: first of all, the tenure of Pete Budhajet as Department

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Speaker 1: of Transportation Secretary has been a historic cluster f I

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Speaker 1: mean in every single way. It turned out that this job,

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Speaker 1: which he thought was just going to be about like

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Speaker 1: flying around on a private jago and ribbon cuttings, it

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Speaker 1: turned out it was actually important. We had massive supply

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Speaker 1: chain crisis then, like we have a massive airline issue

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Speaker 1: which we've talked about in terms of their price gouging

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Speaker 1: and then canceling massive amounts of flights, huge lines at

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Speaker 1: the airport. I mean just the flight travel experience has

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Speaker 1: so incredibly degraded over the past couple of years, and

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Speaker 1: Pete has been asleep at the switch. He hasn't done anything.

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Speaker 1: We've talked to David dan about some of the powers

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Speaker 1: that he could use and he could wield in order

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Speaker 1: to bring the airlines to heal has chosen not to

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Speaker 1: do it, and so he screws up air travel. And

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Speaker 1: remember when he was flying to New York, Yes, and

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Speaker 1: they before he had to drive because there were so

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Speaker 1: many delays. Like I mean, that's what I read into

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Speaker 1: this is basically like air travel is so screwed that

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Speaker 1: Pete is like, eh, well, no problem for me. I

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Speaker 1: can opt down and I can take my private jet.

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Speaker 1: And then the cherry on top, of course, of his

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Speaker 1: tenure as a Department of Transportation secretary was the rail

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Speaker 1: strike and well the averted rail strike and the fact

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Speaker 1: they crammed down this bad deal which he was involved

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Speaker 1: with the negotiations to bring about, and that also sort

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Speaker 1: of falls under his purview. So he's just about screwed

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Speaker 1: up every part of our transportation infrastructure during his time

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Speaker 1: in that position. It's been a terrible cabinet secretary. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I forgot to even mention while the rest

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Speaker 1: of us were delayed. I've personally been delayed for hours

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Speaker 1: and hours, even in cross country flights. And he's, you know,

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Speaker 1: on taxpayer funded. He doesn't have to worry about doesn't

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Speaker 1: effect him, Yeah, it doesn't. He doesn't have to worry

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Speaker 1: at all. You know, I've seen friends and family members

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Speaker 1: who've had bags lost on like honeymoon trips and others,

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Speaker 1: like stories about like brides breaking down in airports. You

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Speaker 1: know it must be nice. Hey there, my name is

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Speaker 1: James Lee. Welcome to another segment of fifty one forty

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Speaker 1: nine on Breaking Points, where we dive into different topics

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Speaker 1: at the intersection of business, politics and society. Today, I

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Speaker 1: want to talk about Boeing. We've got some breaking news

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Speaker 1: now concerning United Airlines and Boeing. Wanted to get straight

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Speaker 1: over to Phil a Bow, who's got that news field.

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Speaker 1: Good morning, Good morning, Andrew. This is a massive order

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Speaker 1: by United Airlines with Boeing. Here's how it breaks down.

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Speaker 1: A minimum of two hundred airplanes are being ordered, potentially

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Speaker 1: up to three hundred airplanes, and one hundred of them

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Speaker 1: will be seven eight to seven Dreamliners. One hundred have

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Speaker 1: been ordered, with an option to order another one hundred

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Speaker 1: of them. They will also be ordering fifty six seven

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Speaker 1: three seven Maxes and exercising the option to take delivery

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Speaker 1: of another forty four Maxes. All together, as you take

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Speaker 1: a look at chairs of Boeing, these seven eight sevens

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Speaker 1: are part of a massive increase in the production rates.

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Speaker 1: It's currently at about one, but they're going to be

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Speaker 1: bringing it up to four and then five starting early

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Speaker 1: next year. Recent Boeing news massive orders for Boeing aircraft,

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Speaker 1: both the seven thirty seven Max and the seven eighty seven,

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Speaker 1: a healthy jump in stock price, very good news for

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Speaker 1: Boeing shareholders Wall Street, and presumably good for their customers

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Speaker 1: as well. The United States Federal Aviation Administration issued an

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Speaker 1: airworthiness directive for all Boeing seven seven seven airplanes. Boeing

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Speaker 1: seven three seven Max aircraft has experienced six midair emergencies

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Speaker 1: and dozens of groundings in the ease since it was

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Speaker 1: cleared to fly again after two catastrophic crashes. Sixty other

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Speaker 1: MIDA safety incidents have also been logged by flight crews

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Speaker 1: in US government databases. Well, maybe not so good for passengers.

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Speaker 1: That news is from this summer very concerning news about

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Speaker 1: the safety and airworthiness of Boeing aircrafts. So is it

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Speaker 1: not concerning or is it not just a little bit

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Speaker 1: odd that at the same time when shareholders and Wall

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Speaker 1: Street are very pleased, we're also getting news like that

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Speaker 1: about aircraft safety which is not so good for customers

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Speaker 1: and passengers. And that incongruence is what we're going to

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Speaker 1: explore today. To do this, we're gonna need to nerd

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Speaker 1: out for a second and talk about this one metric

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Speaker 1: that Wall Street loves. It's called roa return on assets,

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Speaker 1: described by industry analysts as quote the most effective, broadly

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Speaker 1: available financial measure to assess company performance. It captures the

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Speaker 1: fundamentals of business performance in a holistic way, looking at

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Speaker 1: both income statement performance and the assets required to run

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Speaker 1: a business. Very effective, so they say. And the formula

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Speaker 1: is quite simple. It's a company's income divided by its assets,

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Speaker 1: a fancy way of saying, how much money do you

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Speaker 1: earn by selling your goods and services divided by how

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Speaker 1: much money you have to own to make what it

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Speaker 1: is that you sell. It's not super complicated. I do

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Speaker 1: know that Wall Street and business executives try to make

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Speaker 1: business strategy seem complicated, but oftentimes if you just sit

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Speaker 1: down in meetings with some of these guys, they boil

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Speaker 1: things down to maybe one two variables max and they go,

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Speaker 1: tell me what I need to know. I'm being measured

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Speaker 1: by X. So how is this decision why going to

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Speaker 1: impact X? And in this case a little bit of

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Speaker 1: role playing, I would say something like, well, you can

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Speaker 1: improve ROI by pulling a couple of levers. One you

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Speaker 1: can sell more planes, which boosts the numerator, or two

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Speaker 1: you can try to lower your assets by outsourcing the

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Speaker 1: manufacturing of the planes, which reduces the denominator. And that

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Speaker 1: is what they've been doing over the past two decades

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Speaker 1: at Boeing. The seven eighty seven Dreamliner, which they started

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Speaker 1: working on in the early two thousands, is all about

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Speaker 1: asset light design and manufacturing. To look at this jigsaw

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Speaker 1: that is the Dreamliner on your screen. The wingtips, for example,

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Speaker 1: are outsourced to a company called Kaa in Korea, the

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Speaker 1: fixed trailing edges from Kawasaki in Japan, and the horizontal

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Speaker 1: stabilizer from Alania in Italy, so on and so forth.

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Speaker 1: We do not have time to go over every single

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Speaker 1: part today, but the design is a doozy and I

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Speaker 1: know engineers, if any of you are watching, you're probably

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Speaker 1: thinking right now, complicated piece of machinity like the seven

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Speaker 1: eighty seven not too uncommon to outsource components to external suppliers,

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Speaker 1: which is right, But the kicker is that Boeing didn't

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Speaker 1: just outsource the manufacturing of parts. It turned over the design,

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Speaker 1: the engineering, the manufacturing of entire sessions of the plane

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Speaker 1: to some fifty strategic partners. Boeing itself ended up building

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Speaker 1: less than forty percent of the plane. If you're an

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Speaker 1: engineer or work in engineering, comment below is this a

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Speaker 1: good idea or not? Boeing's popular seven eighty seven Dreamliner

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Speaker 1: is facing a new manufacturing defect, which might sound familiar.

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Speaker 1: This is another blow full Boeing. The deep could take

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Speaker 1: three weeks to address, which means airlines won't be receiving

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Speaker 1: Dreamliners in time for much of the busy summer travel season.

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Speaker 1: We first reported about the Dreamliner issues in September when

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Speaker 1: the FAA launched a high level review of Boeing's Dreamliner

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Speaker 1: manufacturing processes. In two weeks time, we saw two cases

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Speaker 1: of battery failures on the seven eighty seven and the

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Speaker 1: grounding of the entire fleet by the FAA. Unimaginable that

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Speaker 1: we could be three years late, have a fleet grounding,

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Speaker 1: have fires on the airplane. They're short changing the engineering

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Speaker 1: process to me in a schedule. There's no doubt the

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Speaker 1: bad repairs going out the door on the seven eighty

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Speaker 1: seven for all the image breaks, because I've seen before

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Speaker 1: view That is just a sampling of the news coverage

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Speaker 1: over the past decade about the seven eighty seven, and

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Speaker 1: that is the plane that hasn't crashed. And probably the

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Speaker 1: most telling quote to sum this all up, I'll read

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Speaker 1: it to you. It's from the New York Times quote

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Speaker 1: managers told employees to install equipment out of order to

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Speaker 1: make it appear to Boeing executives in Chicago, the aircraft

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Speaker 1: purchasers and Boeing shareholders that the work is being performed

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Speaker 1: on schedule, where in fact the aircraft is far behind

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Speaker 1: schedule when it comes to making planes. Those would be

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Speaker 1: some up touse incentives in place. Managers at the manufacturing

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Speaker 1: site being basically forced to lie to executives in Chicago,

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Speaker 1: lie to the shareholders, lie to the customers. The Chicago

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Speaker 1: point I'll come back to, but my point is. It's

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Speaker 1: kind of a house of cards in if you ever

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Speaker 1: look at that seat pocket in front of you to

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Speaker 1: see what kind of plane you're flying on, you might

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Speaker 1: do so going forward. Like I said, we've been lucky

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Speaker 1: so far that these planes haven't resulted in any fatal accidents,

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Speaker 1: but we don't really know what the future brings, and

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Speaker 1: it's obviously a risk. Corporate executives are willing to take

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Speaker 1: an Indonesia passenger plane crashing into the sea minutes after takeoff,

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Speaker 1: one hundred and eighty nine people on board. On October

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Speaker 1: twenty ninth, twenty eighteen, a Boeing seven thirty seven Max

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Speaker 1: eight jet crashed into the Java Sea, killing everyone on board.

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Speaker 1: The origin of the Max scandal has its roots in

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Speaker 1: the rivalry between Airbus and Boeing. Ever since the nineteen nineties,

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Speaker 1: the two companies have been locked in competition. By the

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Speaker 1: twenty tens, the commercial aviation market was essentially a stable duopoly,

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Speaker 1: with each company controlling roughly half of the market. At

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Speaker 1: the heart of this rivalry has long been each company's

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Speaker 1: flagship commercial passenger plane. For Boeing, that aircraft is the

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Speaker 1: seven thirty seven. For air Bus, it's the A three twenty.

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Speaker 1: In twenty ten, Airbus shook up the market when it

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Speaker 1: announced the eight three twenty Neo, an updated version of

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Speaker 1: the A three twenty aircraft line. Neoplanes wouldn't just be

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Speaker 1: updated versions of a familiar aircraft, they would also be

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Speaker 1: cheaper to run. It's time to think. Max Boeing did

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Speaker 1: not design a completely new plane from the ground up

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Speaker 1: because it would have taken too long to make the MAX.

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Speaker 1: Boeing took the existing seven thirty seven airframe and paired

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Speaker 1: it with a new, more powerful engine, but doing that

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Speaker 1: change the plane's aerodynamics. One effect was that in rare

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Speaker 1: flying conditions, the aircraft's nose would pitch up. This is

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Speaker 1: where the MCAST software came in. It was designed to

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Speaker 1: automatically push the plane's nose down. One former Boeing engineer

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Speaker 1: who didn't work on the Max characterized the software fixed

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Speaker 1: as a band aid. We've been learning for the last

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Speaker 1: year how the band aid wasn't as strong as going

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Speaker 1: needed it to be. Okay, that's another risk. The executives

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Speaker 1: were willing to take this time to maximize the numerator

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Speaker 1: of the ROA metric. Their competition, Airbus, they had come

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Speaker 1: out with a new plane that airlines might prefer better.

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Speaker 1: So they took some shortcuts, engage in arguably some fraud

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Speaker 1: to build their own plane in a very short amount

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Speaker 1: of time to make sure the company's revenue wasn't going

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Speaker 1: to be impacted, knowing full well the risk and consequences

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Speaker 1: in hindsight almost too well. Right, we now know that

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Speaker 1: they went through a little bit of a rough patch,

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Speaker 1: a couple of crashes, sales stock both dropped for a

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Speaker 1: brief period, but nothing they couldn't or didn't come back from.

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Speaker 1: Because these people, despite my critique, they understand the game

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Speaker 1: better than most of us, and they play the game

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Speaker 1: really well. Where does Boeing stand on why those max

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Speaker 1: crashes happened? Their investigations that are still ongoing there, you know.

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Speaker 1: But certainly what we've done is we've looked and we've said,

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Speaker 1: what are the things we can do to really improve

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Speaker 1: all our safety processes, and we've taken a number of

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Speaker 1: actions there. Almadar, Boeing's chief aerospace safety officer, points to

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Speaker 1: this newly released safety report, which highlights the steps the

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Speaker 1: companies now taking to bolster the safety culture inside the

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Speaker 1: walls of Boeing and on its airplanes. Well, the purpose

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Speaker 1: is really to put a very structured process in place

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Speaker 1: that's data driven, that really takes on safety in a

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Speaker 1: different way. We learn from our mistakes. We're better for it.

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Speaker 1: We're taking actions, we put processes in place, we're using data.

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Speaker 1: Safety is or ethos, YadA, YadA. This is a headline

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Speaker 1: back in two thousand about a Boeing strike, but to

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Speaker 1: give some context, after Boeing merged with its rival McDonald

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Speaker 1: Douglas in nineteen eighty seven, whose leadership wanted to run

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Speaker 1: Boeing quote like a business rather than a great engineering firm,

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Speaker 1: the employees at Boeing, all forty thousand of them, tried

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Speaker 1: to fight against this cultural change, culminating in a forty

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Speaker 1: day strike that shut down production in two thousand one.

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Speaker 1: Union leaders said, quote, we weren't fighting against Boeing. We

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Speaker 1: were fighting to save Boeing the engineers. They saw this

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Speaker 1: coming over two decades ago, and that Boeing, in my opinion,

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Speaker 1: was probably the last vestige of a Boeing firm that

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Speaker 1: was focused solely on good engineering. Referencing this headline, the

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Speaker 1: leadership basically said screw that, and in the following year

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Speaker 1: two thousand and one, they moved the company's headquarters from Washington,

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Speaker 1: where the majority of the plans were being manufactured, to

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Speaker 1: Chicago to deliberately distance the finance side of the company

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Speaker 1: from the engineering side. So it's not so important to

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Speaker 1: listen to what people say, but more important to observe

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Speaker 1: of what they do. Corporate leadership saw engineers as a

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Speaker 1: threat to the company's new culture, their new way of

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Speaker 1: making money, so they isolated them. Now looking at this

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Speaker 1: recent headline, the FAA does not expect to certify the

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Speaker 1: Boeing seven thirty seven Max seven before the end of

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Speaker 1: the year. The acting head of the FAA said Thursday

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Speaker 1: he does not expect the agency will certify the Boeing

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Speaker 1: seven thirty seven Max seven before a key deadline at

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Speaker 1: the end of the year. Boeing is seeking a waiver

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Speaker 1: from Congress of a December deadline imposing a new safety

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Speaker 1: standard from modern cockpit alerts for the seven thirty seven

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Speaker 1: Max seven and the seven thirty seven Max ten. So

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Speaker 1: today Boeing is facing a new threat to its profitability,

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Speaker 1: this time not from engineers but from a reinvigorated FAA. Rightly, so,

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Speaker 1: the fa is trying to impose stricter safety regulations on Boeing,

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Speaker 1: which they aren't ready for, and therefore their lack of

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Speaker 1: compliance could delay the launch of their latest jet, the

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Speaker 1: seven thirty seven Max ten decent chunk of their sales,

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Speaker 1: which could have downstream implications on their shareholders. A lot

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Speaker 1: of people are looking at the next two weeks and

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Speaker 1: they're saying, you've got the seven thirty seven Max seven

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Speaker 1: in ten certification deadline. If a waiver is not in

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Speaker 1: place by then, people originally were saying that's it. Bowie's

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Speaker 1: gonna throw in the towel and they're not gonna build

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Speaker 1: these planes. What happens if there's not a waiver in

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Speaker 1: place by the end of the year. Well, first, you know,

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Speaker 1: in this case, I think we have to all be

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Speaker 1: careful not to put too much weight want that deadline itself.

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Speaker 1: Deadlines are not good for certain that's the point. They're

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Speaker 1: not good for the regulator to get its job done.

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Speaker 1: They're not good for us in trying to certify that airplane.

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Speaker 1: So we simply want that date to go away. They

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Speaker 1: want that date to go away a little bit of

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Speaker 1: a gaslight obviously, because they say deadlines are bad for regulators,

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Speaker 1: because they should have ample time to do it, which

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Speaker 1: is true, but they also want their planes to fly

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Speaker 1: in the meantime prior to being certain under the more

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Speaker 1: stringent new requirements. This is from literally this year. Boeing

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Speaker 1: plans to move headquarters to Arlington, Virginia from Chicago. Aerospace

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Speaker 1: giants moved to Washington, DC area would bring senior executives

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Speaker 1: closer to federal decision makers. That's maybe one way you

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Speaker 1: can get that date to go away. Similar playbook as

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Speaker 1: in the past. Let's move the company's headquarters now to

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Speaker 1: a stone's throwaway from DC, having the ears of the

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Speaker 1: FAA or other lawmakers who are actually trying to do

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Speaker 1: their jobs by overseeing what Boeing is up to. But unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: that's the business, that's the game, and that's the truth

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Speaker 1: about the clashing of safety and financial considerations at Boeing Engineers.

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Speaker 1: You can sort of ignore them. Passenger safety you can

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Speaker 1: recover from that for the most part as we can see.

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Speaker 1: But shareholders and other risks that would impact the financial

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Speaker 1: considerations of the company. And we're talking about maximizing financial returns.

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Speaker 1: These companies are all profitable at the very LEA sty't

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Speaker 1: out in danger of collapse. Those considerations cannot be ignored.

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Speaker 1: That has all for me this time. I hope you

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Speaker 1: enjoyed today's discussion about Boeing, about return on assets, about financialization.

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Speaker 1: If you did, I would encourage you to check out

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Speaker 1: my YouTube channel fifty one to forty nine with James Lee.

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Speaker 1: You have tons of videos and breakdowns on many different

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Speaker 1: topics like this one. The link will be in the

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Speaker 1: description below. Of course, don't forget to also subscribe to

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Speaker 1: Breaking Points and thank you so much for your time today. Hey,

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Speaker 1: Breaking Points Marshall, here are going to talk about TikTok

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Speaker 1: today going into twenty twenty three. I've got an awesome

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Speaker 1: guest that you guys have probably listened to if you

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Speaker 1: listen to the Realignment, speaking of Chris Fenton. He's the

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Speaker 1: author of Feeding the Dragon Inside the Trullian Dollar Dilemma

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Speaker 1: facing Hollywood, the NBA, and American business. Okay, so Chris,

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Speaker 1: let's just get the intro here. What is your framing

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Speaker 1: on what TikTok's legality national security context is going to

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Speaker 1: look like going into twenty three. Well, look, I mean,

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Speaker 1: the number one thing about TikTok is that it really

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Speaker 1: has to be looked at as a national security concern,

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Speaker 1: and it's to me, it's very obvious. I mean, I'm

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Speaker 1: a soft power I guess specialists, having come out of

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Speaker 1: the Hollywood media space and seeing how things work in China.

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Speaker 1: I talk about soft power influence around the world at

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Speaker 1: whether it's the National War College or at USC, this

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Speaker 1: is a space. I know. The technology is one thing

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Speaker 1: influences the other. And I think what we really need

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Speaker 1: to do is set the debate not just around where

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Speaker 1: this big data is stored, which has been a big

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Speaker 1: part of the conversation even back when Donald Trump was

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Speaker 1: talking about we want to have that stored here, let's

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Speaker 1: do it through Ora cool et cetera, et cetera. Yes,

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Speaker 1: that's a big part of the issue. But the other

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Speaker 1: part of the debate, and a part of the debate

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Speaker 1: that we have about all social media in general, is

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Speaker 1: how much influence TikTok has, and in particular how much

431
00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 1: influence it has with people under thirty that are digesting

432
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:05,760
Speaker 1: it on hours by hours every single day. That is

433
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:07,919
Speaker 1: something that we really need to talk about more. And

434
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 1: I have plenty of specifics to talk about how China

435
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,160
Speaker 1: does that. If we want to dive into it. Yeah,

436
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 1: let me just ask the obvious question which listeners are

437
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,400
Speaker 1: thinking about right now, which is, Okay, young people are

438
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:25,960
Speaker 1: scrolling through meta Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, how do you kind

439
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,200
Speaker 1: of delineate the national security aspect of those three parts

440
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 1: of those three companies? Okay, Well, first of all, if

441
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,400
Speaker 1: you look at the influence that social media has, we're

442
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,479
Speaker 1: trying to tame sort of how it's biased, right, and

443
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,119
Speaker 1: we're talking to Facebook about how how do they temper it,

444
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 1: how do they properly sort of govern the way speech

445
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 1: is talked about on that platform? Twitter the same way.

446
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 1: I mean, that's been the headline quite constantly over the

447
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,159
Speaker 1: last month with the Lion Musk's ownership. But at the

448
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 1: very least these platforms are owned and operated here in

449
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 1: the United States of America. And that's the big difference

450
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 1: about byte Edance and its company, TikTok. TikTok is actually

451
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 1: controlled by China. It is owned by China, and China,

452
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 1: as you know, is run by Beijing. There's one time

453
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,439
Speaker 1: zone in all of China, and that's what time it

454
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,200
Speaker 1: is in Beijing. So even if you're a private company,

455
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 1: you do report to the Chinese Communies Party and ultimately

456
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 1: to the Ministry of propaganda if you're in the space

457
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:28,919
Speaker 1: of media or social media influence or even press or

458
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 1: even the movie business like I was a part of.

459
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of dictation from Beijing on what

460
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 1: they want to see TikTok doing and the way it's

461
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 1: operating around the world. And there's a big reason why

462
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 1: TikTok is not even allowed inside of China, it's that powerful.

463
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 1: And what's the Chinese version of TikTok. I know it

464
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,159
Speaker 1: has a different name, but what's the difference between the

465
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:54,399
Speaker 1: American version and the Chinese version. Well, the Chinese version

466
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 1: is is programmed essentially to amplify things that are much

467
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:03,680
Speaker 1: and it's not under the name TikTok, but it's programmed

468
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 1: essentially to amplify things that help youth become better citizens

469
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 1: in the eyes of the Chinese Communist Party. So there's

470
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 1: a lot of educational videos on there. There's a lot

471
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 1: of things that explain how to become a better citizen

472
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 1: and the way the hierarchy is looked at inside the

473
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:28,239
Speaker 1: Communist inside the communist country there, it definitely censors and

474
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:32,639
Speaker 1: it definitely tempers things that aren't perfectly on party line,

475
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 1: and they're extremely good at it. And if you look

476
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 1: at the way, for instance, the Twitter files have come

477
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,679
Speaker 1: out and the way things have been tempered here just

478
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 1: on that platform by a US company for US people

479
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 1: to digest, you can only imagine how much China is

480
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 1: amplifying terrible events or terrible videos or things that divide

481
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 1: our country, and how much they abate or mitigate the

482
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 1: things that actually bring us together and make us stronger

483
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,879
Speaker 1: as a country. So there's a big new committee on

484
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 1: China that's going to be chaired by Congressman Mike Gallagher

485
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 1: of Wisconsin. How are bipartisan leaders in Congress thinking about

486
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 1: the threats you're describing their general approach to governance of

487
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,160
Speaker 1: the question, how should we think about that going into

488
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,440
Speaker 1: the new year? Well, I think number one is they're

489
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 1: talking about the big data issue, which everybody has discussed, right,

490
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 1: and that is something that needs to be figured out

491
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 1: quickly if we're not going to fully ban the platform,

492
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,680
Speaker 1: So that let's put aside, that's a debate that Before

493
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:40,440
Speaker 1: we put that aside, then for listeners who are just

494
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,440
Speaker 1: checking into this issue, what is that big data debate issue?

495
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 1: Quote unquote, Then we'll move on to the other one

496
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,959
Speaker 1: you're folkus. So we all know how Facebook or Twitter

497
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 1: or even whatever you shop off of collects cookies or

498
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 1: collects different parts of data, and why they suggest certain

499
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:57,879
Speaker 1: things that you didn't even think you wanted to buy,

500
00:27:58,040 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 1: or things you didn't want to read, and you see

501
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 1: it and your ticker on the side of your computer

502
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 1: and you're like, oh, that's a great idea. Let me

503
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 1: buy that. Oh let me read that. You know the

504
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:10,119
Speaker 1: power of that influence, right, Well, all of that data

505
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,959
Speaker 1: that is harvested by American companies or Western companies is

506
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 1: also harvested by TikTok itself and byte Dance, and all

507
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 1: of that data is actually stored in China on servers

508
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,880
Speaker 1: over there. So in a lot of ways, you could say, well,

509
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 1: why is my fifteen year old daughter watching dance videos

510
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,119
Speaker 1: really matter? Well, you know what, it probably doesn't. Probably

511
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 1: ninety nine percent of the stuff they do on TikTok doesn't.

512
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 1: But that other one percent, which is the accumulation of

513
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 1: everybody else in this country, goes into these servers, and

514
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 1: at some point AI technology is going to get to

515
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 1: the level where it can really be weaponized against us.

516
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 1: And that's one of the issues that everybody brings up

517
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 1: is that we want to bring these servers over here.

518
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 1: We want to completely firewalled from being inside of China

519
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 1: and having Beijing have ac access to it. But the

520
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 1: other part of the equation is the influence side. And

521
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 1: just to give a couple things, because it always sounds

522
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 1: really like you're, I don't know, tinfoil hat talking about

523
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 1: how pernicious you know they can be with influence, But

524
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 1: we know from even the Twitter files how easy it

525
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 1: is to adjust the scales to rebalance the way people

526
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 1: are digesting information, a way to amplify it, way to

527
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:26,959
Speaker 1: censor it, et cetera. Well, if you go to China,

528
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 1: it's that much more times one hundred. Right when I

529
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 1: was there shooting iron Man three in December of twenty twenty, twelve,

530
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 1: ten years ago, the Sandy Hook massacre occurred, and you

531
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: would think, wow, that's something that no one would want

532
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 1: to see in China, would be censored, But the exact

533
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 1: opposite occurred. Out of every thirty minute telecast of news,

534
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 1: twenty five minutes of it was about the Sandy Hook massacre.

535
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 1: And why is that? Because they really wanted to showcase

536
00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 1: the United States is a very dangerous system to live under,

537
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 1: or one that is cowboy, one that is reckless, one

538
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 1: is very violent, and they loved amplifying that story as

539
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 1: tragic and terrible as it was. The same thing happens

540
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 1: if you're watching CNN in her hotel room, which you're

541
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 1: allowed to have access to, stories that are not very

542
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 1: good about the Chinese government or about China in general,

543
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 1: are completely blank on your screen. You don't see a

544
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 1: single thing. So that is censorship taken to the next level,

545
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 1: where they just completely make sure you're not aware of

546
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 1: a story they don't want you to know of. And

547
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 1: the one last thing I'll bring up, and I was

548
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 1: there to witness it was during the Jasmine Revolution Tibetan,

549
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 1: some very big Tibetan protests in twenty eleven twenty twelve,

550
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 1: coming out of the Great Financial Crisis, there was a

551
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 1: lot of kindling sparkling around China. And what did China do.

552
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 1: They amplified a rally around the Flag story, which was

553
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 1: essentially taking the takeover of the Sinkaku Islands by Japan

554
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:10,719
Speaker 1: and making that into essentially a defense national security issue

555
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 1: for China, and China actually started shooting water cannons from

556
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 1: Coastguard boats, et cetera, et cetera, And that story proliferated

557
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 1: all around the country to the point where they were

558
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 1: throwing Molotov cocktails at Japanese consulates. They were overturning Toyotas

559
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 1: and Nissans in the streets of Shanghai. So it's just

560
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 1: an example of censorship, amplifying propaganda and amplifying explosive rally

561
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 1: around the flag propaganda. And that is the same stuff

562
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: they can do here inside of our own borders at

563
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 1: the United States of America. So two last big questions.

564
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 1: So number one, what do you think should be done? Then, like,

565
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 1: what's your personal recommendation for how we should think about

566
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 1: this going into the new year. Well, as an American,

567
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 1: I just flat out think we should not allow something

568
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 1: that is this powerful and influence on people under thirty

569
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 1: allowed in this country. And in fact, we have Silicon Valley,

570
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 1: we have masterminds that this type of creation. In fact,

571
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: you could argue maybe Facebook's Instagram is a great replacement

572
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 1: for it, but we should follow India's lead and flat

573
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 1: out just ban the app. And I don't care about

574
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 1: the whole Oh, well, that's government overreach and free markets

575
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 1: and capitalism and all that kind of stuff. It's not

576
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 1: national security issues should always come ahead of capitalism, always

577
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 1: come ahead of free markets, and quite frankly, always come

578
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: ahead of any sort of political side that you're on.

579
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 1: We are all one nation and we need to actually

580
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 1: address the things that make us stronger as a nation.

581
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 1: And I can tell you emphatically that China will find

582
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 1: any story that divides us, red, blue, purple, you name it,

583
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 1: and they will amplify it all over anything that they control.

584
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 1: You know, this is interesting because I really can't recommend

585
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 1: your book Feeding the Dragon enough in terms of the

586
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 1: memoir aspect, talking about how you really saw intercultural exchange

587
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 1: as a way to tamp down tension and have a

588
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 1: more pieceful relationship. Could you talk to the contradiction then

589
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 1: almost how in twenty twelve, twenty thirteen, you're thinking about

590
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 1: iron Man three, How this is a real harmonious combination

591
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 1: of two different cultures and industries, but today we're talking

592
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 1: about bands, Like what's your recommendation for how policymakers could

593
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 1: think about the cultural soft power side of this that

594
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: could amp down tensions. Maybe, well, we need to figure

595
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 1: out how to coexist with the other superpower across the Pacific.

596
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: Coexistence is the key. I mean, we do not want war.

597
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 1: We don't want cold war, and I know there's debates

598
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 1: about whether we're in cold war. But one way to

599
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 1: do that is obviously trade in commerce, and I believe

600
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 1: there is a very strong rebalancing of the capitalistic endeavors

601
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 1: between the two countries that can be done where national

602
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 1: security interests are protected and the values and the principles

603
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 1: that we hold dearlyer protect. We also see the rules

604
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 1: and the laws starting to navigate this, and we're seeing

605
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 1: like the SEC essentially approach Chinese listed companies and saying

606
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 1: you have to apply the same accounting practices to your

607
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: companies as we do with ours if you want access

608
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 1: to our capital markets. There's various ways we can work

609
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 1: with the WTO to re designate China as a developed

610
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,800
Speaker 1: nation not a developing nation, and there's various other very

611
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 1: macro moves that we can do that will reset it immediately.

612
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 1: We just need to put patriotism before capitalism and realize

613
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 1: that the art of war is a long game that

614
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 1: Beijing plays, and they're very subtle when it comes to influence,

615
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 1: and that influence can create little sparks of division between

616
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 1: all of us, and they know that. And it's a

617
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: lot of stuff that we can't even really see in

618
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,359
Speaker 1: real time. But if you look at it over the

619
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 1: course of say, my tenure with China and going back

620
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 1: to twenty twelve to today, a lot of it starts

621
00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 1: to make sense, and you're going, hey, this is not

622
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,439
Speaker 1: some sort of conce cospiracy theory. It's actually the way

623
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 1: they compete, and it's the actually the way they're looking

624
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: to win. So we just need to play the game

625
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 1: as smart as them and figure out how to rebalance

626
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,280
Speaker 1: this and make it more of a fifty to fifty

627
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 1: divide and less but not least. Do you have a

628
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 1: prediction for whether twenty twenty three were mark a turning

629
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:22,800
Speaker 1: point for the TikTok band conversation, because we've been having

630
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:28,720
Speaker 1: this same conversation since basically twenty nineteen, across two different administrations.

631
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:32,479
Speaker 1: What do you think could change the kind of loop

632
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 1: we seem to be stuck in. I think it's it's

633
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 1: the same thing that I've seen on a very micro scale.

634
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,280
Speaker 1: With me when I started talking a little hawkish about China,

635
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 1: it was really only the right side of the aisle

636
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 1: that wanted me on platforms talking about it, But now

637
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:52,359
Speaker 1: it's very even. It's even distribution between left and the right,

638
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,319
Speaker 1: and if you span that in a macro point of view,

639
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 1: China's probably the one issue that both sides of the

640
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 1: aisle or green upon when it comes to Washington, DC.

641
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 1: So where I see the twenty twenty three version of

642
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 1: this TikTok discussion that, like you said, has been going

643
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,239
Speaker 1: on for say five years, I think it's going to

644
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 1: move forward to some sort of constructive resolution, mainly because

645
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:19,360
Speaker 1: both sides of the aisle are now on it, talking

646
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 1: about it and want to solve the issue. Good show, Chris,

647
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us on breaking Quist.

648
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,320
Speaker 1: Could you just shout your book out for any listeners

649
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 1: who want to go a little deeper. Yeah, my pleasure.

650
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 1: Follow me at the dragon Feeder on on on TikTok,

651
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 1: no on Twitter and feeding the dragon inside the jillion

652
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 1: dollar dilemma facing Hollywood, the NBA and American business is

653
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 1: the name of the book. Thanks so much for having

654
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 1: me on, and keep doing what you're doing. You guys

655
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 1: are fantastic. Thanks Chris. We could edit that out, but

656
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 1: that was a fun little fording slip for listeners. Next time, Hey,

657
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:01,319
Speaker 1: breaking points Marshall coslof Here, we've got another one of

658
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:04,799
Speaker 1: our recurring segments with Jewel Star Back. Jewels does really

659
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 1: great work on pretty much every single social media platform.

660
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,240
Speaker 1: She has a great Washington Post column, all that great stuff.

661
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:12,240
Speaker 1: Since we're at the end of the year, I wanted

662
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,480
Speaker 1: to do a kind of year and review about how

663
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:17,760
Speaker 1: we are feeling around social media without being too precise,

664
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 1: because this is coming out a little after we recorded it,

665
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 1: so I'm not sure Twitter Files Part fifteen Dashto is

666
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,319
Speaker 1: going to be up for grabs. So Jewles, let's just

667
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 1: start really basically, how are you feeling about the social

668
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 1: media space Twitter, Meta, Instagram as we're going into twenty

669
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:39,840
Speaker 1: twenty three. I mean, this year has been crazy. I

670
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 1: feel like every sentiment I've had towards platforms have kind

671
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 1: of one eighty by the end of the year. For example,

672
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 1: TikTok has been pretty consistent in the way that we

673
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 1: just saw what a bipartisan bill come about, requesting to

674
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 1: ban TikTok in the US. It's already happened on government

675
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 1: officials phones, but now yes, they're trying to push an

676
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 1: entire ban the country, and so that's always been lingering

677
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 1: since the beginning of the year. It's been lingering for

678
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 1: two years now, and that's kind of a toxic position

679
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 1: for creators because you need to diversify yourself across platforms

680
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:15,319
Speaker 1: for your longevity and you know, livelihoods. So that's still

681
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 1: in the background. But despite that, Tataka is still growing

682
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:20,759
Speaker 1: like crazy, and it's still the platform that most young

683
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 1: people are spending the vast majority of their time. On Instagram,

684
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 1: We've seen a lot of ups and downs. There was

685
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,880
Speaker 1: a negative sentiment basically all throughout the year, and at

686
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 1: this tail end of the year though, you're kind of

687
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:35,239
Speaker 1: seeing a more positive sentiment shift towards Instagram and the

688
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 1: way that they've been out of a lot of drama

689
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 1: in the past year. A lot of the dialogue around

690
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 1: them was kind of just like users talking about all

691
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: this different stuff. But now everything we're seeing within Twitter,

692
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,359
Speaker 1: we're like, wow, Like maybe Zuckerberg is kind of like

693
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 1: has a great approach in being more private with his

694
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 1: moves with Meta and then with Twitter obviously everything's been

695
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:58,520
Speaker 1: super public. For me, it was like back in what

696
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:02,840
Speaker 1: was it virtually our April or May when Elon first

697
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:06,719
Speaker 1: introduced the idea of buying Twitter, I was actually very

698
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:08,840
Speaker 1: excited because there were all these articles coming out of

699
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 1: like interest in Twitter work and working at Twitter was

700
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 1: going up two hundred and fifty percent, and I was like, wow,

701
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of there's a lot going to

702
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 1: be a lot of great engineers, great product people who

703
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,360
Speaker 1: want to work at Twitter. And I've always seen so

704
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,800
Speaker 1: much great potential in the platform because it is very different,

705
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 1: differentiated and unique. But in this past month, past forty

706
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:29,919
Speaker 1: five days, we've seen obviously a pretty one to eighty

707
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 1: sentiment towards Elon for a lot of people. There was

708
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 1: basically nothing that Elon could do to make them have

709
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 1: a negative sentiment towards him. But now even some of

710
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,239
Speaker 1: his stands and like his biggest fans are realizing, you know,

711
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 1: it's not good to aisolize people. And we're realizing just

712
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 1: like how shaky these platforms can be just because of

713
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 1: the top management and how complex these platforms are to

714
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,360
Speaker 1: run as well. So it's been a good learning for everyone,

715
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:56,240
Speaker 1: but definitely a lot of ups and downs with social

716
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 1: media this year. You know, I didn't want to get

717
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:01,840
Speaker 1: too specific on decisions Elon has made but your comment

718
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 1: about creators seemed to diversify. I think does bring up

719
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 1: the decision to ban linking out to your Instagram, to

720
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:14,400
Speaker 1: your link tree. Could you explain why, as a creator yourself,

721
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 1: why this caused the biggest uproar out of any one

722
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 1: of his decisions. So to your point about how a

723
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 1: bunch of his stands are no longer defending him, this

724
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 1: seemed to have been the decision that a politically across

725
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 1: the aisle, everyone's like, whoa too far? Explain what happened

726
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 1: and why you think that resonated so much? Yeah, this

727
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 1: week was a huge shift towards towards the sentiment of

728
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:38,440
Speaker 1: Elon because first of all, the whole situation of banning

729
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 1: journalists who maybe had uplifted the Elon jet account in

730
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:44,720
Speaker 1: some shape or form, and he put out that poll

731
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 1: of like, oh should I unban them now or in

732
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 1: seven days? Everyone was voting now that's what one And

733
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:52,240
Speaker 1: that kind of showed, oh wow, this is a shift

734
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:54,799
Speaker 1: and sentiment towards Elon because every poll before was kind

735
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,319
Speaker 1: of going his way. So that was a little inkling there.

736
00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 1: And then yesterday and it was they ended up tracting

737
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:03,280
Speaker 1: Twitter ended up retracting the statement within like twelve hours.

738
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,719
Speaker 1: Was yes, they were banning the links to any other

739
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 1: competitor platforms. They left out platforms like TikTok and YouTube

740
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 1: though it was like Instagram and Facebook masted on and

741
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 1: like I think maybe parlor or maybe Parlor wasn't in

742
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 1: it. It It was other platforms of the realm. And then

743
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 1: also yes, uh, link aggregators like link in bios like

744
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:27,359
Speaker 1: like you said, link tree, beacons, et cetera. These platforms

745
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 1: what you say, what like what are like the like

746
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 1: what are the link and bio apps if someone hasn't

747
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 1: used them before? Yep, So create, like every creator uses

748
00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 1: these because it's just one link and has you can

749
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 1: like show all your different social media platforms. For example,

750
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:43,880
Speaker 1: I also have like my discord in there and questions

751
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 1: for like the Washington Post, like I'm like okay, like

752
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 1: if you want to ask me questions, blah blah. It's

753
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:51,240
Speaker 1: basically like the new personal website, and it's a little

754
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:55,399
Speaker 1: more clean and efficient for people. Yeah, every creator uses them,

755
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:57,720
Speaker 1: and it's kind of your your gateway to your digital

756
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 1: identity and across platforms because obviously we're all compartmentalized across

757
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:06,240
Speaker 1: different platforms, and that's so important because like TikTok couldod

758
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 1: band tomorrow. Of course, it's important to move your audience

759
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:10,840
Speaker 1: as much as possible to other platforms so that you

760
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 1: can still thrive in those spaces. So this was just

761
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 1: an obvious, terrible decision because Elon wants to attract more

762
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:24,759
Speaker 1: creators and obviously that is suppressing competition and it's just

763
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,879
Speaker 1: terrible for creators in their livelihoods. And on the other end,

764
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:30,239
Speaker 1: like Elon's always talking about how he wants Twitter to

765
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 1: be the best for journalism, specifically citizen journalism when it

766
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 1: comes to talking about things that are happening on different platforms,

767
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:40,319
Speaker 1: I do this all the time. I'm constantly talking about

768
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 1: what's happening on TikTok and what's happening on Instagram, and

769
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 1: I always link out to the original source. So when

770
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 1: it comes to journalism, whether it's legacy or citizen journalism, links,

771
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 1: clickable links to other platforms are so important and making

772
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 1: that information useful. So just all around, this decision was

773
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 1: awful and I think if he asked, like any average person,

774
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 1: they would say so. So it really feels like there's

775
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 1: kind of like an authoritarian situation here of like he's

776
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 1: just calling all the shots regardless of what anyone under

777
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:09,279
Speaker 1: him is saying, which is definitely not a good thing.

778
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,839
Speaker 1: You know. It's interesting too because to your point around

779
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:15,919
Speaker 1: which platforms were banned and which platforms you could link

780
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 1: out to. You could link out to YouTube, which is

781
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:21,719
Speaker 1: what we do with breaking points, but Elon had also

782
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:24,320
Speaker 1: spoken about how he wanted to bring long form video

783
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,840
Speaker 1: to Twitter. So how as a creator, because you trust

784
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 1: that eventually there just wouldn't be a ban on YouTube

785
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 1: linking out as well. So I think that the big

786
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 1: question that I'd ask for you here then is as

787
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 1: a creator, how do you think about these closed first

788
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 1: open systems? There's been this big debate There's always been

789
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:43,239
Speaker 1: a debate around the Internet, like which people want to

790
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:44,399
Speaker 1: live in. Do they want to live in something that's

791
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 1: like tightly controlled that's very top down but organized, versus

792
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:50,840
Speaker 1: something that's very open and kind of crazy. How do

793
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:54,359
Speaker 1: you think about that debate? Like now especially? I mean,

794
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 1: I think it's really important for them to stay open

795
00:43:57,000 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 1: in terms of ease. I mean, as a creator, of course,

796
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 1: I would love to just use one platform and my

797
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 1: livelihood feel completely safe on one platform. That would be

798
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,759
Speaker 1: so much easier and like to consolidate your digital experience

799
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 1: and just focus on one platform, Yes, that would be

800
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 1: so much easier, but that's just not the case. We've

801
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:13,759
Speaker 1: seen over the years so many platforms come and go.

802
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:16,280
Speaker 1: So many people who grew on Vine had to completely

803
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 1: upend once that platform died and grow elsewhere on like

804
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:22,600
Speaker 1: YouTube or Instagram, whatever it is. And that's so important

805
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 1: because yeah, at the end of the day, these things

806
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:26,840
Speaker 1: are businesses. Even though they feel so intimate and like

807
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 1: they almost should be public goods, that's just not the

808
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 1: case right now. So being able to diversify is just

809
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:35,879
Speaker 1: essentral for creators. And I think like it also made

810
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:41,280
Speaker 1: Elon seem almost like insecure in Twitter's positioning, like why

811
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:42,799
Speaker 1: do you have to ban all these platforms that are

812
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 1: possible competitors. It just makes it seem like, oh, like

813
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:49,480
Speaker 1: our time here is maybe we should be thinking like, oh,

814
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 1: are these platforms so much better that you don't want

815
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:53,880
Speaker 1: us to go to them. I think it just like

816
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,399
Speaker 1: kind of showed insecurity in the platform's positioning right now

817
00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 1: as well. So the last big topic I want to

818
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 1: talk about here is you had an interesting tweet We

819
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 1: were talking about you were pointing out that if you're

820
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 1: actually looking at these big social platforms that really owned

821
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:15,960
Speaker 1: the past decade Snapchat, Twitter, Facebook pre acquisition, Instagram, all

822
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:19,680
Speaker 1: these different apps, they're actually founded by young people. So

823
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:21,239
Speaker 1: you know, we're not trying to be like agist here

824
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:24,200
Speaker 1: and saying that like, oh, Elon isn't succeeding because he's

825
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,399
Speaker 1: jen x. But what were you kind of getting at

826
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 1: with that tweet? And what do you think we could

827
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 1: take away going the next year from that? Yeah, for everyone.

828
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 1: Some examples, Mark Zuckerberg was nineteen when he founded Facebook,

829
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 1: Kevin Sistrom, who founded Instagram, was twenty seven, Jack Dorsey

830
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:43,280
Speaker 1: was twenty nine obviously for Twitter. Edvan Spiegel was twenty

831
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 1: one for Snapchat. What this shows is that these social

832
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 1: media platforms have a vast amount of cultural nuances, and

833
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 1: for example, today's biggest platform being TikTok. TikTok is obviously

834
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 1: very associated with the younger generation. That's who understands this

835
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:00,479
Speaker 1: platform best. And so when we think about the next

836
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 1: decade of social media and we're kind of in this

837
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 1: weird where everything feels very wishy washy on social media,

838
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 1: all these platforms are copy each other, We're not really

839
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:13,000
Speaker 1: sure where they're going next in terms of innovation. The

840
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 1: people who are going to come in and probably make

841
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 1: the most change that is compelling to the average user,

842
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 1: it's probably going to be young people who again understand

843
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:22,760
Speaker 1: these platforms best and have been integrated and really immersing

844
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:24,479
Speaker 1: them since a super young age, and have a different

845
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:27,319
Speaker 1: point of view on social media platforms than the older generations.

846
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:30,279
Speaker 1: So yeah, Elon came in. Again, We're gonna trying to

847
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 1: be just I'm just like pointing out the ages of

848
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 1: what he's like, fifty two, fifty four, and that a

849
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:37,279
Speaker 1: lot of the men around him who were helping him

850
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:40,000
Speaker 1: was like around the same age. You know, David Sachs,

851
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 1: Jason Kalakanakis, I don't know if I said his name right,

852
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:50,320
Speaker 1: Jis sorry, but yeah, all of them around that same age,

853
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 1: and there's just a I think in any other realm

854
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:56,800
Speaker 1: of tech that could be okay, but something about social

855
00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:59,719
Speaker 1: media and again those cultural nuances make that seem like

856
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 1: a a huge negative. And I think some younger people

857
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:05,480
Speaker 1: who are deeply invested in digital culture and social media

858
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 1: can come in and support making really great change in

859
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:11,759
Speaker 1: features for the next decade of these platforms. That's such

860
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:14,320
Speaker 1: a good point to make there when it comes to

861
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:16,279
Speaker 1: the tech books. I want to just close on this point,

862
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:20,440
Speaker 1: which is that if this were purely an engineering challenge,

863
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:23,800
Speaker 1: So if the issue of Twitter was that the app

864
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 1: didn't load fast enough or it couldn't handle everyone tweeting

865
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 1: at the same time during the World Cup final, that's

866
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 1: the case where just age wouldn't matter, because actually all

867
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:35,200
Speaker 1: that literally matters is like your your technical programming ability.

868
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:37,840
Speaker 1: But to your point about in the cultural tenets mattering

869
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:42,439
Speaker 1: in this category of technology, I clearly don't think there

870
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:45,520
Speaker 1: were twenty something creators or just any creator in general

871
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 1: who is in the room during the decision on the

872
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:51,960
Speaker 1: linking outpit. It's kind of funny, like someone even tweeted

873
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:55,439
Speaker 1: to Elon, like, wait a second, you're banning link tree.

874
00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:58,960
Speaker 1: Link tree is how I actually do this, this, this, this,

875
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:02,840
Speaker 1: and that, because your link tree could maybe even include

876
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 1: services that they didn't ban. So your link tree could

877
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:08,120
Speaker 1: be OnlyFans, it could be your substack could be a

878
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:11,760
Speaker 1: bunch of things that are okay. But Elon then replied, Okay,

879
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 1: that's a fair point. It's like, dude, someone should have

880
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:17,399
Speaker 1: told you that before you guys set the memo aut Well,

881
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:20,319
Speaker 1: what's really frustrating to me about all these Elon moves?

882
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 1: And again, I was super excited for him to come

883
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 1: in because his like hit, the energy he cultivated on

884
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 1: his Twitter account in like twenty twenty twenty twenty one

885
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:33,360
Speaker 1: was always super motivating, expiring, and focused kind on humanity conversations. Obviously,

886
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:34,839
Speaker 1: this past four to five days we've seen a bit

887
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 1: of a culture war situation. Anyway, what has really frustrated

888
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:41,840
Speaker 1: me about his moves is that they completely dismiss any

889
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:45,000
Speaker 1: institutional knowledge that has been learned from the past decade

890
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 1: of social media, Like, like what you're saying if he

891
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:50,400
Speaker 1: had asked anyone if he had considered again the past

892
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:52,759
Speaker 1: decade of social media at all and all the nuances,

893
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:56,239
Speaker 1: and that just seems like such basic principles that he

894
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:59,320
Speaker 1: is completely defying. And I am all for trial and

895
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 1: error when it to like obviously building a platform, but

896
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:05,439
Speaker 1: when it seems like a waste of time and things

897
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 1: that have already gone through trial and error and anyone

898
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:11,719
Speaker 1: who deeply understands social media clearly knows about, that's when

899
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 1: I get annoyed, because you're putting like users through hell

900
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:17,360
Speaker 1: and back, and you're also making users relearn all of

901
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:20,799
Speaker 1: these different things, like you're not doing beta testing, You're

902
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 1: pushing this out to millions of users, and it's just

903
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 1: it's very exhausting and reckless. To me, that's a really

904
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:28,279
Speaker 1: great way to put it. You shouldn't do trial and

905
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:31,799
Speaker 1: error with issues relating to trust. Yeah, trust is like

906
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:34,359
Speaker 1: trust is something you can't just easily rebuild, and that'd

907
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 1: be a very key lesson. From the past ten to

908
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:39,720
Speaker 1: fifteen years of social media, Jewels, this has been really great.

909
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:43,360
Speaker 1: Where can folks go to get your link in bio

910
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:47,279
Speaker 1: and other work they are up to. I'm just at

911
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 1: Jewels turpack across platforms, And just one more point about

912
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:52,440
Speaker 1: the link in bio, I thought that was funny. I

913
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:56,680
Speaker 1: saw some information this morning that link tree actually moves

914
00:49:56,840 --> 00:50:00,200
Speaker 1: way more traffic to Twitter than Twitter ever moved to

915
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 1: link tree because like a lot of people come from

916
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:05,160
Speaker 1: like my TikTok for example, so many people use my

917
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 1: link tree to go over to my Twitter. So that

918
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 1: was also an interesting statistic that was not taken into

919
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:16,880
Speaker 1: account when Twitter made this decision yesterday. Very very helpful, Jules,

920
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us towards the end of the

921
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 1: year on breaking points. Thank you so much, Marshall