1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,600 Speaker 1: Hey, it's Alec. We all love true crime podcasts, but 2 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: perhaps you're looking for something a little different, less murder, 3 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: more intrigue. I invite you to check out a new 4 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: podcast I just released called Art Fraud. It's the true 5 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:19,919 Speaker 1: story of one of New York City's oldest and most 6 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: trusted galleries dealing in world class art, and how its 7 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 1: doors would close forever in the wake of an unprecedented scandal. 8 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: The art market is ripe for cons because it's inherently subjective. 9 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 1: I just couldn't even look at it because it was 10 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: so garish and so not by Rothcoe. We're talking about 11 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 1: eighty million dollars in fake paintings, or more precisely, forgeries. 12 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: All episodes of Art Fraud are available right now. Okay, 13 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: here's our show. This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening 14 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: to Here's the Thing from My Heart Radio. My guest 15 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:08,919 Speaker 1: today comes from the most legendary of American families. Rory 16 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: Kennedy is the youngest daughter of Senator Robert F. Kennedy 17 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: and the niece of President John F. Kennedy. But as 18 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: she will tell us during our conversation, she's also one 19 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: of the great Kennedy Women. Instead of following her forebearers 20 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: into law or politics, Kennedy has made a name for 21 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: herself as a documentary filmmaker. Her films feature a wide 22 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: range of subjects, from surfing legend Laird Hamilton's to challenging 23 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: issues like poverty, addiction, and mental illness. In her current film, 24 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 1: She's tackling corporate corruption. That film, Downfall, the case against Boeing, 25 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: investigates the circumstances that led to two tragic passenger jet 26 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 1: crashes in two thousand eighteen and nineteen. Rory Kennedy and 27 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 1: I talk about her remarkable upbringing and how the people 28 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: she's encountered in her life have influenced her trajectory. I 29 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 1: think it's hard to detach anybody from how they grew up, right, 30 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: I Mean, it's such an influence and impact on who 31 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: you become. And certainly that was the case with me. 32 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: I grew up, you know, the youngest of eleven and 33 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:26,679 Speaker 1: in obviously a very political family, and I was impacted 34 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 1: by that. I mean I was also surrounded, my mother 35 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: made a point of this by really extraordinary role models, 36 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 1: you know, and we had such a the honor of 37 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: meeting whether it was you know, presidents or congressman and 38 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 1: senators or people like Nelson Mitndela and Desmond Tutu, you 39 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: know who who were in our homes, and also some 40 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: of the great athletes and you know NASA astronauts. I mean, so, 41 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: I think it was a life where we were surround 42 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 1: did by people who created a sense of aspiration and 43 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 1: to try to make the world a bit of a 44 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 1: better place now. But would you say, though that, as 45 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:15,359 Speaker 1: you're making a film, do you have protocols, rules, tenants, 46 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 1: whatever word you want to use while you sit there 47 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: and say that's not something I'm going to do that's 48 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: influenced by the way your family has been treated. If 49 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: you're making a film and that's some aspect of a story, 50 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: there's a very kind of scandalizing, tawdry, shy away from that. 51 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:31,119 Speaker 1: Because the way you guys have been attacked from time 52 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: to time. I think I have certain sensitivities. For example, 53 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: with downfall, the case against Boeing, there's three forty six 54 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: people who died, and there are the family members who 55 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: are related to those people, some of whom we talked 56 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 1: to in our film, And I was definitely thinking, well, 57 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 1: how is it going to be for these folks to 58 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: watch this film, right, And I've had to see scenes 59 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 1: over and over again that play themselves out on the 60 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: news that are are very upsetting to watch about my 61 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: family dying right and being killed and and I didn't 62 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 1: want to subject them to that. But I also wanted 63 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: to make a film that was impactful. We do c 64 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 1: g I recreations of what it was like to be 65 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: in the cockpit so that we could really help people 66 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: understand the perspective of the pilots in these planes and 67 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 1: what they were struggling with with the umkest system. And 68 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 1: you know, but I thought, how are these folks going 69 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:30,599 Speaker 1: to watch this film? So when I sent the film 70 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: to them before it's coming out, I highlighted all the 71 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: sections that I thought would be hard for them to watch, 72 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 1: so that they could be aware of that and go 73 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 1: into it and decide to watch those sections or not. So, 74 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: you know, maybe I have some sensitivity and moments like that. 75 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: I think the types of films I choose generally tend 76 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: to be political in nature and tend to you know, 77 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:59,599 Speaker 1: I hope when people watch these films, whether it's this 78 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 1: or a film about Vietnam The Final Days of the 79 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: war film about Abu Grabe, that we learned from them, 80 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: and we learned from watching these stories and and hopefully 81 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:17,279 Speaker 1: make better choices moving forward. Right. So, I think the 82 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: choices of the films I make are certainly impacted by 83 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 1: the family I grew up in. It's interesting that you 84 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: mentioned that. And this is only tangential, but remember being 85 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 1: invited years ago Clinton was in the White House. I 86 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: was invited to the White House to a screening of 87 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: the movie The Paper by Ronnie Howard, and I'm sitting 88 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 1: in a seat in the theater and the woman to 89 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: my right, who's sitting next to me, A gun goes 90 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 1: off in the middle of the film, and that woman 91 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: grabbed my arm and gasped this huge gasp when the 92 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 1: gun went off. It was your mom, right, So you 93 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: know there's me to this day. It's she's not prepared 94 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 1: for that. Those sounds. Yeah, So there's trauma related to 95 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: that for sure. Now to get to the film. So 96 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:03,839 Speaker 1: I watched this film, obviously, and I was mesmerized. Congratulations, 97 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: by the way, I mean, you came to the Hampton's 98 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 1: Film Festival. Every year a film of yours comes and 99 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 1: we all look atach other We're like, can we really 100 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 1: invite her again? We were bringing Rory out to Easthampton again. 101 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:18,160 Speaker 1: I mean is it enough? And I mean how much 102 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 1: more can we shine her up here? But we loved 103 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:22,600 Speaker 1: your film about your mom. We're gonna get to that later. 104 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: Loved Last Days of Vietnam. That was a great I'm 105 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 1: not just saying this, that's a great movie. Great movie 106 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: really just you what film can do and the spirit 107 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 1: of what's happening and understanding that those moments that you 108 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: did a great job. Now, this film made me angry. 109 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 1: This film. I was pissed off because only one guy 110 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 1: I think, I think is criminally charged, correct, that's correct, 111 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 1: and that we identify that person, Mark Forkner, And he 112 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 1: was in charge of what at Boing. He was a pilot, 113 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: a test pilot, and he was you know, he really 114 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: wasn't responsible for what up end and a lot of 115 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: people feel like he was scapegoaded because he was really 116 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: in charge of making sure, you know, he was testing 117 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: the plane. And then he played a role in keeping 118 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 1: the m cast system away from the regulators and that's 119 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: documented and there's proof of that, and so they followed 120 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 1: up with that. But you know, Congressman de Fasio, for example, 121 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 1: led the congressional investigation into what happened, the biggest investigation 122 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: the Infrastructure and Transportation Committee's history, and he concluded that 123 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 1: this is was really top down right, that the top 124 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: group in management at Boeing was very aware of the 125 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: m CAST system, that there was a concerted effort to 126 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: keep the system away from the regulators, to hide the system, 127 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: and to cut corners along the way, and that there 128 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 1: was you know, it was a culture of concealment, is 129 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: what he calls it. So I think that there are 130 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: a lot of people who feel like the folks who 131 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: are most responsible have yet to be held accountable, and 132 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: there's been no criminal charges, and you know, Muhlinberg walked 133 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 1: away with the head of Bowing, the head of Bowing 134 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 1: sixty two million dollars. So you know, I think after 135 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: you've kind of watched the film and really understand all 136 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: the decisions that the management of Boeing made along the 137 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 1: way to prioritize profit over safety, that you know, when 138 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 1: you understand the depths of those choices, that I think 139 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 1: many people like you are outraged. Well for people I 140 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: don't want to, I want them to see the film obviously, 141 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: but I want to give them just a taste of 142 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 1: so Boeing wants to create. I'll let you fill in 143 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: the blanks. So they want to create a fleet. They're 144 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 1: losing market share, they're getting their hat handed to them 145 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: by air Bus. Things are not looking good for Boeing, 146 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: who had been dominant around the world for decades. And 147 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: then and then we're the pride of not to Seattle 148 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: with the United States. They've Asian industry, and then the 149 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: things start to go down from so they want to 150 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: play catchup and they want to produce a lower cost, 151 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 1: more fuel efficient I think was the goal of the 152 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 1: seven max. Got to get the word max in there. 153 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: The seven thirty seven fuel efficiency was the goal. And 154 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:17,599 Speaker 1: then a part of this was the development of this 155 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 1: system which was to help to so they don't make 156 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 1: too steep a climb. A system takes over the plane 157 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: and lowers the nose of the plane and forces the 158 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,680 Speaker 1: plane down, but doesn't shut off. It forces the nose 159 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: of the plane down straight into the ground. Correct, Well, yeah, 160 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:34,680 Speaker 1: that's correct. There was There were concerned at a certain 161 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: angle that the plane would stall, and so they instead 162 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: of changing the kind of structure of the plane and 163 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:45,679 Speaker 1: moving the engines and whatnot. They decided to fix it 164 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:50,679 Speaker 1: with a computer system, again in an effort to save money, 165 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: it seems, and that computer system was connected to one 166 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 1: sensor on the side of the airplane, like a weather vane. 167 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: And so if that sensor was damage, which happens off 168 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:06,719 Speaker 1: and gets hit by bird, something happens to it, it 169 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:10,839 Speaker 1: would send and this is what happened, erroneous information to 170 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: the computer system. So it would tell the computer system 171 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 1: that the plane was at a certain angle and you 172 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 1: needed to push the nose down. But it wasn't at 173 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 1: that angle. It was, you know, more at a flat angle. 174 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 1: And not only would it push the nose of the 175 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: plane down, but it would do it over and over 176 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 1: and over again. Probably the most powering details you covered 177 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,079 Speaker 1: the film is and the pilots were not told about 178 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 1: the installation of this system, that's correct. It's you know, 179 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:40,839 Speaker 1: prior to the Line Air crash, which was the the 180 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 1: first crash, the pilots were completely unaware that this system 181 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: was even on the airplane, which was also kind of 182 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:54,559 Speaker 1: flew in the face of what had been the normal 183 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 1: relationship between Bowing and pilots, which was to really educate 184 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 1: for pilots about everything. Training, you know, make them fully 185 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:07,439 Speaker 1: equipped to handle any situation that would happen. But in 186 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: this case, they in an effort to really keep this 187 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: from regulators. Really, what was motivating them is that if 188 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:19,079 Speaker 1: they have a totally new system on the airplane, then 189 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 1: they have to train pilots. And if they have to 190 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: train pilots, it costs them a million dollars per an aircraft, 191 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 1: you know, on average to train these pilots. So they 192 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 1: wanted to again it seems, save the money. And so 193 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 1: instead of making people aware that this system was on 194 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: the airplane, they made a concerted effort to We're not 195 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: even gonna tell you about this machine we've installed, which, 196 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 1: if it behaves badly, is going to crash the plane. 197 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 1: And there's a manual override that they might have been 198 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: able to activate. They could have gotten out of it. 199 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 1: I guess if that they if they had had the training. 200 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 1: If they had had the training, except what we also 201 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 1: discover and case in the course of this film is 202 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: a document that came out in It's called a coordination 203 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: sheet that shows that if something went wrong with the system, 204 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 1: that the pilots would need to fix it. Within ten seconds. 205 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:19,439 Speaker 1: Otherwise the power of the MCT system would overtake them 206 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:21,679 Speaker 1: if they didn't do it in ten seconds, and the 207 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 1: results would be catastrophic. And catastrophic in airplane language means 208 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 1: the plane will crash and everybody will die. So you know, 209 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:34,199 Speaker 1: even if the pilots right. So in the second instance, 210 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 1: in the Ethiopian airplane crash, the pilots were aware of 211 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: the system, they did everything right, they did what they 212 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: were told to do, and the plane still crashed. So 213 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:47,959 Speaker 1: you know, if you don't and what you have to 214 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 1: also remember, and this is why we also created the 215 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: kind of the c g I recreation of what happens 216 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: in that cockpit because there's this cacophony of sounds and 217 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: error alerts that are all contradict geting each other that 218 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 1: the pilots are trying to understand and navigate and figure out. Okay, 219 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 1: this is saying where you know, the altitude is in disagreement, 220 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: that air speed is in disagreement, that the all systems 221 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:16,439 Speaker 1: alert is on, the stick shaker is going, there's all 222 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:19,599 Speaker 1: of these alerts coming at them, and then with that 223 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 1: they have to navigate. Okay, Well, what this all means 224 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: is that I need to do these steps within ten seconds, 225 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 1: and otherwise this plane is going to crash. I mean, 226 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:32,319 Speaker 1: I don't want to go on a plane that is 227 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:34,959 Speaker 1: putting pilots in that position. I don't want to put 228 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,839 Speaker 1: my children or my people whose job who would give 229 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:41,959 Speaker 1: anything to save the lives of their passengers. Think of 230 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:45,319 Speaker 1: something more unimaginable than to be on the in the 231 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: cockpit of a plane and the plane is behaving and 232 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,679 Speaker 1: not in some anomalous way. You see yourself hurtling towards 233 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 1: the ground. It's at nine eleven. You're the plane is 234 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 1: going into the ground and you're sitting there thinking what 235 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 1: can you don't and you don't know what to do? Right, 236 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 1: It's completely know maybe they're eating a turkey sandwich. You know, 237 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 1: it does not like you're not. They're sitting there, everything 238 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: on total alert for the entire plane ride. Before we 239 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 1: get into the macro of your filmmaking, one more thing, 240 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: I think you make it clear in the film, the 241 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: idea that this is a different Bowing. At this point, 242 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 1: I thought it was fascinating how you talk about the 243 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: move to Chicago. They moved the headquarters to Chicago for 244 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 1: the purposes of distancing themselves from the influence, and I 245 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: though it was well thought. The influence was good. It 246 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: was a nice battery. It was a nice exchange between 247 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 1: Union's management, design and technology and the corporate and these 248 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: guys like, no, no, no, we we don't want to 249 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 1: be too close to those guys in Seattle. So we're 250 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 1: gonna move to Chicago so we can make our decisions 251 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: in this bubble in Chicago. And it seems like what 252 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: was a great company, that rare, I mean, multibillion dollar enterprise. 253 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:54,200 Speaker 1: It made big, expensive things that they were very proud of, 254 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: that defined the city, and everything moves to Chicago, and 255 00:14:57,480 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 1: it seems like that's part of the problem. It was 256 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 1: once the that merger was made and they moved to Chicago, 257 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 1: that cost cutting thing becomes primary. I think that's right, 258 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: you know. I think like you, I love Boeing and 259 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 1: what Boeing stood for in this country, and you know 260 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: the history of Bowing, and we really celebrate that in 261 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 1: the film because it's been an extraordinary company for decades. 262 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: You know, it helped us get out of World War Two, 263 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 1: It helped build the fighter jets to win that war. 264 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 1: It helped get us to the moon with my uncle Jack. 265 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 1: I mean, they helped build those engines and the rocket ships. 266 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 1: They helped people be able to travel all over the 267 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: world for the first time, you know, with the seven 268 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 1: forty seven, an extraordinary accomplishment. So we wanted to celebrate that. 269 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: And during those very early years and for many decades, 270 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: Boeing did one thing, which was to say, we're going 271 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: to prioritize excellence and safety and then the profits will follow. 272 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: We're going to make the best planes possible, we're gonna innovate, 273 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: we're going to do new things, and we're going to 274 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 1: think to the future. And then it changed hands, taken 275 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: over really. I mean, one person we interviewed said somehow 276 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: McDonald douglas bought Bowing with Boeing's money and the McDonald 277 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: douglas people were put in charge, and they had a 278 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 1: very different business model, which was very Wall Street focused 279 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: and quarterly earnings, you know, And so they've made a 280 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: series of decision corporate decisions to cut back on personnel 281 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 1: whose whose job it was to ensure safety and put 282 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: pressure on the folks who were building the planes to 283 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: build them quicker and faster. And when people would complain 284 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 1: about safety, that slows that process down documentary filmmaker Rory Kennedy. 285 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: If you enjoy conversations about the making of documentary films, 286 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: check out my episode with British filmmaker Lucy Walker. Her 287 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: documentary Bring Your Own Gaide is an in depth look 288 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:06,639 Speaker 1: at California wildfires and their effect on local residents. What 289 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 1: I want to understand is, well, how are we stopping 290 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 1: it and why are people living in these areas and 291 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: building these houses that burn over and over and over again. 292 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 1: Could we do better? So you would think that when 293 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 1: people look at developing an area for housing, they would 294 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: think about far safety, but nobody's actually thinking about what 295 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 1: are they going to be able to ensure these homes 296 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 1: and who's going to pay if these homes burned down. 297 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 1: To hear more of my conversation with Lucy Walker, go 298 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 1: to Here's the Thing dot org. After the break, Rory 299 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 1: Kennedy and I discussed the filmmakers who have influenced her work. 300 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. 301 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: Filmmaker Rory Kennedy has made more than forty documentaries. Her 302 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: work has earned an Emmy and several OSCAR nominations along 303 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 1: the way, I wanted her to share some of her 304 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 1: process as a filmmaker. Well, you know, different people and 305 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 1: companies work in different ways. I'm very hands on as 306 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:19,920 Speaker 1: a filmmaker, and I you know, I love to be 307 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 1: doing all the interviews and being in the edit room, 308 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: and so I don't take on a huge number of 309 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:30,120 Speaker 1: projects at any given time. And usually when I decide 310 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: that I really want to do a particular project, I 311 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 1: really try to make it happen. I was really committed. 312 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: I felt like this story was so important, the Downfall story. 313 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:44,120 Speaker 1: I think, like so many other people, I witnessed these 314 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:46,879 Speaker 1: two airplanes crashing within five months of each other, the 315 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 1: exact same aircraft. Three forty six people died, and you know, I, 316 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: like so many other people, fly right, And I felt 317 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: like I want to know what happened, who knew what when, 318 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,959 Speaker 1: who is responsible for this? And I want to make 319 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: sure that something like this doesn't happen again. But I 320 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 1: also felt that, you know, during the last decades that 321 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 1: America has been really prioritizing corporate interests, right, And so 322 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 1: I think this film, I think this film I hope 323 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 1: rises to something that's not just about these crashes, which 324 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,680 Speaker 1: is you know, as meaningful as it gets, but I 325 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 1: think it touches on something else, which is the need 326 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 1: to regulate, the need to balance out corporate interests making money, 327 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:45,440 Speaker 1: making money, making money, and the need to balance that 328 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 1: with public interests. Right, And we've seen corporations like going 329 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 1: balances for many decades and do fantastically well. And I 330 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 1: think that when that gets out of balance, it hurts everybody. 331 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 1: So when you see someone like the fi Ausio, the 332 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 1: head of the committee, the guy that was the leading 333 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:04,679 Speaker 1: light there in the Congress, did he have as much 334 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: integrity overall as it appears to be on screens? Fantastic 335 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:10,920 Speaker 1: because because you know as well as I do, you 336 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,440 Speaker 1: know where are people in government who care enough and 337 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 1: they want to fight the way we're going? Like like 338 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 1: Boeing was a company, you said, well, you understand, you 339 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 1: want people to make money and make profits. Bowling was 340 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:22,639 Speaker 1: doing quite well before. I'm sure they had a slump 341 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: when Douglas took over. But what you find is not 342 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:26,879 Speaker 1: only do people want to make money, they want to 343 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:28,879 Speaker 1: make obscene amounts of money. They want to make an 344 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:31,879 Speaker 1: amount of money that they're looking at you like your child, 345 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: like well you know now calm down, sunny, because there's 346 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: a lot of money at stake here for us who 347 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: run and own the company. And my point is is 348 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: that for me, I'm always so sad. I'm always so 349 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 1: impacted by government officials who don't have the guts to 350 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: do their job. And the government's job is. I mean, 351 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:54,879 Speaker 1: I've I watched people in testimony in hearings and I 352 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 1: think to myself, thank God I'm out there, because I 353 00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:00,160 Speaker 1: would be looking at the heads of car companies and alchemies, going, 354 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 1: you don't get it. You come here, you answer our 355 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 1: questions on behalf of the American people. We have the authority, 356 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,920 Speaker 1: and I feel like that authority is not always employed effectively. 357 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 1: You said Defacio did a good job. He's amazing. I 358 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 1: mean he and his heart was so in the right place. 359 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: But he was also dogged and he held these folks accountable. 360 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,119 Speaker 1: And you know when you see him in those congressional 361 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 1: testimonies and chasing down every single document and you know, 362 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:31,919 Speaker 1: putting this report together, which took years in the making 363 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 1: and is incredibly thorough. They go after bowing and they 364 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:40,160 Speaker 1: hold them accountable, and they're continuing to go after bowing. 365 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: So I think there are a lot of extraordinary heroes 366 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: who are celebrated who are really on the front lines 367 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: of this, whether it's Defasio or Michael Stummo, who's the 368 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 1: father of Samuel Stummo who died in the Ethiopian plane 369 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:59,199 Speaker 1: crash and turned from a victim to really an advocate. 370 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: And he, I mean, I just got off the phone 371 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: with him yesterday and he he's not giving up on this. 372 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:06,679 Speaker 1: I mean, Bowing has thrown a lot of money at 373 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 1: these families to get them to be quiet, and he 374 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,640 Speaker 1: is not going to be silenced. And he is continuing 375 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: to you know, spread the message that that this that 376 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:20,920 Speaker 1: he has a very continued concerns about the safety of 377 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,679 Speaker 1: the seven thirty seven Acts, the seven eight seven Dreamliner. 378 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:28,159 Speaker 1: They just announced yesterday the f A a that I mean, 379 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 1: as though this should be news, but that the FAA 380 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:33,399 Speaker 1: is going to actually regulate Bowing and not let Bowing 381 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:40,400 Speaker 1: regulating regulate. So you know, watch the film because that's 382 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: another interesting point about how when I was studying government 383 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,639 Speaker 1: at gw in the seventies, when I went down to 384 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 1: Washington to go to school, and we talked about that, 385 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: and we talked about how you know, uh, departmentalization, how 386 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: people are in these departments, like presidents come and go. 387 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 1: We're here civil servants for twenty thirty years, and so 388 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: here at the f A, we have our own relationships 389 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:03,639 Speaker 1: with eight with airline companies, and they allowed Bowing to 390 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 1: self regulate and self inspect. I do think you're right 391 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 1: that there's they're not enough people in government who are advocating. 392 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:13,639 Speaker 1: But I guess my point is is that in this 393 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 1: film you show a world where advocacy comes from a 394 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 1: lot of different perspective. It comes from the government officials 395 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:23,680 Speaker 1: doing the right thing in this case to Fasio, it 396 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 1: also comes from you know, people who don't think of 397 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 1: themselves as advocates but turn into ad it's as a result. 398 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:34,920 Speaker 1: And then you know Andy Pestor, who's a dogged journalist 399 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: who chases down the story and gets us the information. 400 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 1: And it's the combination of all of those people who 401 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 1: come together, and you know the storytellers, right, So I'm 402 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: I'm not putting myself in that category, but we also 403 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 1: have to you know, the Lucy Walkers and and yourself, 404 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:57,239 Speaker 1: the people who are packaging these stories and getting them 405 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:00,920 Speaker 1: out in a way that's digestible to an audience and 406 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:06,200 Speaker 1: so that that translates hopefully into creating a better world. 407 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,920 Speaker 1: I'm curious for people to understand how documentary films come 408 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 1: to the screen. Bob Drew, he did the trip tick 409 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,400 Speaker 1: primary about your uncle. I mean, one of the funniest 410 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:18,920 Speaker 1: things in the world you've ever seen in your life. 411 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,639 Speaker 1: Hubert Humphrey walking into like some barn with men sitting 412 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: on bales of hay, saying, America, we know what it's 413 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 1: got to do. And then you cut to your uncle 414 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:31,920 Speaker 1: walking with his wife into room for the people and 415 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 1: people are crying and screaming like it's a Beatles concert. 416 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 1: Who is going to win the primary? Who were your 417 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: influences in your filmmaking, Well, certainly Bob Drew was, I 418 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 1: mean an extraordinary filmmaker. Penny Baker was a huge influence 419 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 1: on me as well. Barbara Copple, who you know. The 420 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 1: first documentary feature I made was American Hollow, which was 421 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: about a family in eastern Kentucky and it was really 422 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 1: an extraordinary story ray of its woman who had thirteen 423 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 1: kids and they all lived off the land, and we 424 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,479 Speaker 1: kind of spent a year with them. Certainly influenced by 425 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 1: Barbara and her extraordinary work and in Kentucky and Appalachia. So, 426 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: you know, I think those early verite filmmakers have huge 427 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:24,120 Speaker 1: influence on the world of filmmaking today. And then they're 428 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 1: just you know, there's just a slew of incredible filmmakers 429 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:33,399 Speaker 1: who are colleagues of mine. You know Lucy Walker you mentioned, 430 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: I think she's a fantastic filmmaker. My old partner, Liz Garbage, 431 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 1: is fantastic. We're not still together as a company, but 432 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 1: were we remained very good friends and advocates for each 433 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:51,640 Speaker 1: other film. Yeah, that's fantastic. Yeah, gosh, you's your so knowledgeable. 434 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:56,399 Speaker 1: Amy Berg is fantastic. RJ. Cutler, Davis Guggenheim. I mean, 435 00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 1: there's just Don Porter. I think that we're surround funded 436 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:04,920 Speaker 1: by really talented filmmakers, and I think there's I think 437 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,879 Speaker 1: we've all also been influenced, you know. I think this 438 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:12,159 Speaker 1: verity influence has impacted the kinds of work that we do. 439 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,119 Speaker 1: But I think we're also influenced by Hollywood and the 440 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 1: films that we're seeing, the narrative films and the dramatic storytelling, 441 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: so that we're making films that keep you a little 442 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 1: bit more at the edge of your seat of what's 443 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: going to happen next, you know, and and really pull 444 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 1: you into the characters and and and to the plot 445 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 1: and too. You know, the storytelling. I think it's very 446 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,879 Speaker 1: sophisticated these days. I think you know, you see it 447 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: out in the world, and you know, when you turn 448 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 1: on your Netflix account, it's a mix up there. It's 449 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 1: not like, here's the narratives and then go down deep 450 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 1: into your Netflix account to find the documentaries there up center. 451 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,160 Speaker 1: You know, because people are watching them and they're they're 452 00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 1: pulled in and and I think it's because they're really 453 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: great storytellers. Filmmaker Rory Kennedy, if you're enjoying this conversation, 454 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 1: tell a friend and be sure to follow Here's the 455 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 1: Thing on the I Heart Radio app, Spotify or wherever 456 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,479 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. When we come back, Rory Kennedy 457 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 1: talks about the film of hers that was the hardest 458 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: for her to make. I'm Alec Baldwin and you were 459 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:38,639 Speaker 1: listening to Here's the Thing. The Kennedy family has made history, 460 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:43,879 Speaker 1: and most of that while occupying a path from Hyanna Sport, Massachusetts, 461 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 1: down to McClean, Virginia. And yet Rory somehow landed in California. Well, 462 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,119 Speaker 1: my husband Mark, as you know, as a screenwriter and 463 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 1: a writer, and he is also my partner in writing documentaries, 464 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,919 Speaker 1: but he has other writing that draws him out there. 465 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,200 Speaker 1: So we decided we'd go out there for a couple 466 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 1: of years because at that time, ten or twelve years ago, 467 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 1: the kind of independent film world was fizzling out here 468 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 1: in New York and was sort of pivoting over the 469 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: West Coast. We fell in love with California. Your brother 470 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:16,639 Speaker 1: moved that. I talked to my friend, I go, how 471 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 1: do you like it? Goes it's great? I go, oh god, no, no, 472 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: I said, not you not you come on, you're going 473 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:25,199 Speaker 1: You're going out there? I said, I mean, I think 474 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 1: Cheryl is great, but there's a lot of other women 475 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:29,359 Speaker 1: out there for you, Bob, And he doesn't have to 476 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 1: be living out there in California, and he loves it. Yeah. 477 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 1: He came out there with his EMU, his bird. I 478 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 1: remember he was trying to figure out a way to 479 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 1: get the bird out there, and I said, well, you know, 480 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 1: maybe try Richard Plepler. He's got that HBO plane. So 481 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: he called Richard and he said, can I bring my 482 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 1: can you take my bird out? But he failed to 483 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 1: mention that the bird was six ft high and needed 484 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: to go with Richard anyway, so he said, the catering 485 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 1: order came out and then Bob, he didn't have a 486 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 1: house for the first couple of weeks, so the bird 487 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: lived at my house with Mark Nate blueberries and anyway, 488 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 1: there are lots of stories to tell about to be 489 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 1: the bird. And he loves California, know too, but yeah, 490 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,719 Speaker 1: he loves he loves it out there. Now, you did 491 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 1: the movie about your mom, and of course you make 492 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 1: a little joke there, But how difficult it was to 493 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 1: recruit your mom? Yes she was not she was not 494 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: a willing subject to be filmed, but eventually she settled down. 495 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: My siblings were very difficult to by the way, really well, yes, 496 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 1: they just didn't make it easy busy now, they just 497 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 1: wanted to make it difficult for me, because why would 498 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 1: why would they make it easy when they don't have 499 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 1: to know? They were all fantastic and including my mother, 500 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 1: and they they did answer ultimately all the questions I 501 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 1: asked them. And my mother, I was just with her 502 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: yesterday I played back and with her, and I mean 503 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: I was just I was winning whole game. My diets 504 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 1: were so much better. I played brilliantly, and then she 505 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 1: beat me again. She's ninety four. I cannot beat that woman. 506 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 1: Clinging back him and I'm not a bad back him 507 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 1: and Claire, I love I love that your mother also. 508 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 1: And you know this infinitely better than I do. She 509 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 1: just in her own wonderful way and in a truly 510 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 1: in a truly marvelous way. She just doesn't suffer fools 511 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 1: at all. And we're playing golf up there at the 512 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: golf tournament, and she says to me, come in golf 513 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 1: with me. You're gonna you're gonna be with me, and 514 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: you're gonna be with Frank and so and so and so. 515 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 1: And I go, I said, I beg your pardon. I said, 516 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 1: you have to really understand it's important because this I've 517 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 1: crossed this this juncture before. I said, I'm a miserable golfer. 518 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 1: Of course you can hit a golf ball. Come on, 519 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 1: come on, I said, no, I don't think you really understand. 520 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 1: I need you desperately to listen to carefully what I'm saying. No, no, no, no, no, please, 521 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 1: because this is nonsense. Come on, you're gonna come with me. 522 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 1: You're gonna play with me and Frank and I. As 523 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: is always the case, I am scared to know. So 524 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 1: I do fairly well. I can drive the ball, I 525 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 1: could I I get lucky with the iron. I can 526 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 1: put back and drive iron some terrible We get to 527 00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 1: the second to the third hold in your mother TN. 528 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: She goes, you're right, you really can golf? Can you? 529 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 1: Did she check you off your team? Can we get 530 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: could we get in here? Someone? Where's the ringer that 531 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 1: was following us? To fill inform me? Now? One thing 532 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 1: I noticed when I worked with the counselor sisters who 533 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 1: did disturb in the universe about their father, William Kunstler, 534 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: And when I was talking to them, it was I 535 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:20,959 Speaker 1: kind of knew this, but it was brought into sharper 536 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 1: focus for me. The cost. I mean, they told me 537 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 1: that they were trying to retire a debt of forty 538 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,719 Speaker 1: fifty dollars of debt they owed for archival footage from 539 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 1: NBC and other network news organizations. Is that true for 540 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,239 Speaker 1: you as well? Meaning? Do you find these costs are 541 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: just because I, for one, belief that old network news 542 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 1: organizations the materials should be made free under fair use. 543 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 1: These are public airways. Yeah, well it is. It can 544 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 1: be astronomical the cost associated with archive. I mean, we're 545 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 1: lucky enough with this film that it was. It was 546 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 1: fully financed by Netflix, who covered those costs for us, 547 00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 1: so so we're not dead on it. But it can 548 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 1: really make her a a lot of terrific documentaries out there. 549 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 1: I think more people are leaning into fair use, but 550 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 1: there has been a few instances of backlash against that 551 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 1: where people chase them down and demand being paid, you know, 552 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 1: particularly for these historical documentaries. It's it's a real cost. 553 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 1: It's like people who when I was working more consistently 554 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 1: on the issue of campaign financial reform with creative coalition 555 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 1: organizations I worked with years ago in the nineties, from 556 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 1: disparate sources, we learned that the one of the great 557 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 1: enemies of campaign finance reform is the National Association of 558 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 1: Broadcasters because these affiliates in the network TV world. Someone 559 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 1: said to me, there are stations in this country that 560 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 1: make seventy of their annual budget during one election cycle 561 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: and selling political advertising. They do not want to take 562 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 1: the money out of politics, and the n a B, 563 00:32:55,800 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 1: the National Association War is constantly finding campaign finance law changes. Yeah, listen, 564 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 1: I so appreciate your work in that area too, because 565 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 1: I think, you know, when just circling back to your 566 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 1: point about you know, who are these leaders now like 567 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 1: Defasio who are advocating for us. I think it's it's 568 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 1: hard given the system that we have to really produce 569 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: and and encourage people who are who are in it 570 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 1: exclusively for the public interest, right. I mean, that's those 571 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 1: are the types of people who you want to be 572 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 1: driven to politics as people who are going to make 573 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 1: the world a better place, but instead they're often driven 574 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 1: there because of money, and that's not really the reason 575 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 1: you want people ultimately in that in that position. So 576 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 1: I think there's a lot still to be done, obviously 577 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 1: with campaign finance reform in this country. Which film for 578 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 1: you was the most difficult to put together as a film, 579 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:53,760 Speaker 1: What was the biggest challenge. Well, I think the hardest 580 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,239 Speaker 1: one for me was ethel you know, the stakes were 581 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,240 Speaker 1: so high and it was so deeply personal. You know, 582 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 1: I had to look through lots of footage. We're talking 583 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 1: about archive footage, you know, some of which was extraordinary 584 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 1: and beautiful and so fun to see and just you know, 585 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,880 Speaker 1: gave me a depth of understanding of my family and 586 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,280 Speaker 1: my father, who I never met. You know, just watching 587 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 1: him in this footage and a lot of footage has 588 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 1: never been seen before. Was was a really beautiful experience 589 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 1: for me. But it was also emotionally challenging and difficult, 590 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 1: and you know, I wanted to ultimately make a film 591 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:38,960 Speaker 1: that showed, you know, the challenges and the difficulties that 592 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 1: my mother in particular went through and faced, but also 593 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,360 Speaker 1: you know, to celebrate her because I think that for 594 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,800 Speaker 1: so many people in our family, with a focus on 595 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,680 Speaker 1: Robert Kennedy, John F. Kennedy, Teddy Kennedy, but there's not 596 00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 1: as much focus on the women, right and there. You know, 597 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 1: my aunt unit started the Special Olympics. She's contributed enormously 598 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,480 Speaker 1: and but she hasn't quite gotten that same level of attention, 599 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:08,960 Speaker 1: and nor has my mother. And so many people when 600 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,600 Speaker 1: they introduced me, they say, oh, this is Robert Kennedy's daughter, 601 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,920 Speaker 1: and I'm like, well, my mother actually raised me, and 602 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,120 Speaker 1: you know, she played a pretty big part in like 603 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 1: who I Am. So part of it was like, I 604 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 1: think she deserves the spotlight at least for a moment, 605 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:30,320 Speaker 1: like at least understood. Yeah, and to help people understand 606 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,719 Speaker 1: her contribution because she was also her nature was to 607 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,279 Speaker 1: kind of stand behind and not you know, be the 608 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,239 Speaker 1: one on the microphone and be the one sort of 609 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,400 Speaker 1: at the front line. So anyway, I think just for 610 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,480 Speaker 1: me personally, the stakes were higher on that one and 611 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 1: and it was more challenging for me. What are you 612 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 1: working on next? I'm working on a couple of projects. 613 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,920 Speaker 1: I've got another film with Netflix that is about a 614 00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:00,120 Speaker 1: volcanic eruption that I'm doing right now, and then I've 615 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 1: got a film about the global refugee crisis that Yes, 616 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 1: these are the main ones I'm focused on, and I'm 617 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,480 Speaker 1: very excited to, you know, have this film coming out 618 00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:15,319 Speaker 1: on Netflix, and UM committed to getting as many eyes 619 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,759 Speaker 1: on it as possible. Now, Last Days of Vietnam was in. 620 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,879 Speaker 1: How many of these films Ethel was in. I can't 621 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,279 Speaker 1: believe it. But if these last films, have most of 622 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 1: them been with Netflix. Now, this is my first film 623 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:32,719 Speaker 1: that I've directed with Netflix. Last Days was with PBS, 624 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 1: Ethel was with HBO, did a film about NASA with 625 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 1: the Discovery Channel. Let me just say I like that. 626 00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 1: I have such admiration and respect for you. You're such 627 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:49,399 Speaker 1: a talented artist, and you've always committed yourself to making 628 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,279 Speaker 1: the world a better place. And you have such a 629 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 1: love for people and heart that is more open and 630 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 1: more generous than anybody I know. And I just have 631 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,040 Speaker 1: such deep admiration and respect for you. Might love to 632 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 1: your mom, Will you take care of Thank you? Rory Kennedy. 633 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:16,560 Speaker 1: Her documentary Downfall, The Case against Boeing, is available now 634 00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:22,240 Speaker 1: on Netflix. This episode was produced by Kathleen Russo, Zack McNeice, 635 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 1: and Maureen Hoban. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Here's the 636 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:28,640 Speaker 1: Thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio.