1 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:08,480 Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Marcos Show on Imheartradio. 2 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: There's been a trend on social media of women taping 3 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: themselves telling their husbands that they can't pay the mortgage. 4 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: The implication is that obviously these women have never paid 5 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:25,240 Speaker 1: the mortgage, and the men are confused by what they're saying. 6 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: I can't pay the mortgage this month. 7 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 2: You know who our mortgage provider? 8 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: I know, but I wanted to pay it and I 9 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:37,160 Speaker 1: can't pay it. You don't even know who are coming 10 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 1: and you can, David, I really can't pay the rent 11 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: this month. Well, I can't help you depending on that. 12 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 3: I just I spent it all and I don't even 13 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 3: think I'm gonna. 14 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: Have rent for next year. So I'm just like, you 15 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 1: don't know? 16 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 2: So, yes, when have you ever paid rent? 17 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: Everest? 18 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 2: Where do you go to pay rent? Where do you 19 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:09,680 Speaker 2: even go? Who do we go pay rents? You don't stop? 20 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:15,400 Speaker 1: I'm not going to pay the mortgage this month. Well, 21 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 1: I can't pay the mortgage this month. 22 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 2: I'm so sorry. 23 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 1: I tried this on my own husband, because I too 24 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 1: have never paid the mortgage. I was laughing so hard 25 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: that I couldn't get the words out I was crying. 26 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: I just thought it was so funny. I knew that 27 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: I wouldn't be able to deliver the words to him. 28 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 1: He thought I was trying to tell him that I 29 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 1: couldn't pee because I couldn't get the word pay out anyway. 30 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: The comments have been a mix of two things, one 31 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:47,039 Speaker 1: women wondering where they can get a man who pays 32 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: the mortgage, and two women criticizing these women for letting 33 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: a man take care of them. It's this second group 34 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: that I want to talk about. These voices always from 35 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 1: other women telling women that they can't pened on men. 36 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: But here's an actual example of a bunch of women 37 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,640 Speaker 1: depending on their man successfully, and they still feel the 38 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: need to criticize. This anti man thing has developed, and 39 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: it's been going on for well over a decade, maybe longer. 40 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:21,839 Speaker 1: It's so unhealthy seeing men as bad or untrustworthy. It's 41 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:24,800 Speaker 1: not good for any of us. And the women in 42 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 1: the first group they don't believe the second group anyway. 43 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: They want a man to take care of them. They 44 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: believe he exists. They see it in action, and they 45 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: want it. Why wouldn't they As we're talking about all 46 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:38,239 Speaker 1: the woke stuff that we're hopefully going to leave in 47 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 1: the past this whole Men are terrible. Men will leave 48 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 1: you at any moment. My aunt once trust the demand 49 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 1: to pay the mortgage and he spent their money on strippers, 50 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: wide paintbrush. Thing has got to go. Some men are bad, 51 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 1: most or not. We focus on the outlier stories of 52 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: bad guys and ignore the masses of men living quiet 53 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 1: lives and taking care of their families and doing what 54 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: they have to do. The last thing I want to 55 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,639 Speaker 1: say is that the mortgage video leads people to believe 56 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: that these women aren't contributing at home. Maybe they're stay 57 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 1: at home moms, Maybe they just don't do the mortgage payments. 58 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 1: I contribute, but it was still hilarious that I would 59 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: be paying the mortgage because that's just not my department. 60 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:25,919 Speaker 1: It's okay. It's preferable even for spouses to have their 61 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: own lanes in a marriage. I've talked about it on 62 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 1: here before, and I think it works very well for us. 63 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:34,679 Speaker 1: If you want to send in your suggestions or tell 64 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: me anything else, drop me a line at Carol Maarkowitz 65 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 1: Show at gmail dot com. Coming up next and interview 66 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: with Matt Welch. Join us after the break, Welcome back 67 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 1: to the Carol Marcowitz Show on iHeartRadio. My guest today 68 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: is Matt Welch. Matt is editor at Large of Reason 69 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: Magazine and co host of the Amazing Fifth Column podcast. 70 00:03:57,480 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: Hi Matt, so nice to have you. 71 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 3: On a right Thank you for the nice words about 72 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 3: fifth Call. I appreciate it. 73 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 1: So, I mean, the most important question, do you miss 74 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: me in Brooklyn? 75 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 3: Yes, although knowing that you we have a beachhead in 76 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 3: Florida is always is always helpful. 77 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 2: And you know offline we're gonna have some conversations about that. Oh, 78 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 2: I love it. 79 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: Those are my favorite conversations. 80 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:19,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's give me some visitations. 81 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 3: Oh, I'm a California I'm a California boy, so like 82 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:26,720 Speaker 3: I just winters don't sit right with me. And this 83 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:29,160 Speaker 3: is now my twelfth or so in New York City 84 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 3: and I've I've had enough, So I'm gonna I'm gonna 85 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 3: see some Florida in January. 86 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. Good. It's been kind of a chilly winter here, 87 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: except when I tell that to New Yorkers, they don't 88 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 1: like it at all. But it's been like seventy but 89 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 1: it feels like sixty five. I get it unpleasant. 90 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 2: You know, I'm very sorry for your pain. 91 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: So how did you get to be like one of 92 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: the top libertarians in the world. 93 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:55,840 Speaker 3: Gosh, well, I've had Nichols, Biond. 94 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: So I can't say top. 95 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 3: You know, there are top there are so many liberties 96 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 3: and who would disagree with. 97 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 2: With all of that assessment, I. 98 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 1: Said Kennedy On, I mean, you know, I really am. 99 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: I've had the elite of the libertarian world on. 100 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:12,159 Speaker 3: So I've mostly been really lucky that, starting with Nick, 101 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 3: that the libertarian world, both in terms of professional outlets 102 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 3: such as Reason, but also the broader audience has accepted me. 103 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 3: I mean when I started writing for Reason, even when 104 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,479 Speaker 3: I started working for Nick with some regularity, I did 105 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 3: not describe myself as a libertarian. 106 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:32,600 Speaker 2: I made this. 107 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 3: Very tortured type of appellation of that I was a 108 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 3: century europe style liberal, which is stupid, but like it 109 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 3: made sense to me. I'd lived there for eight years, 110 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:46,279 Speaker 3: and that that had more of an impact on me 111 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 3: than whatever stupid things are happening in American politics. And 112 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 3: so I now use libertarian just as a shorthand because 113 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:54,840 Speaker 3: it doesn't you know, the other thing doesn't make any 114 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 3: sense or resonate with anybody, and it's as accurate as not. 115 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 3: Let's say, but I I am an outlier on a 116 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 3: couple of issues, and Planet Libertarian has just been you know, 117 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 3: with the obvious exceptions here and there, especially of people 118 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 3: who are trying to like market themselves in a differentiated 119 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:17,159 Speaker 3: way from Reason and other places like that, they've just 120 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:19,479 Speaker 3: been very tolerant. So I was really worried about that 121 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:21,479 Speaker 3: when I was the editor in chief of Reason from 122 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 3: two thousand and eight to twenty sixteen, officially because I 123 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 3: felt initially like, my god, I'm speaking for libertarians. That 124 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 3: seems so wrong to me, let alone them. And people 125 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 3: were cool, first of all because I wasn't you know, 126 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 3: I'm not the spokesman of the entire tribe or anything 127 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 3: like that. But also like, if you just are honest 128 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 3: about places where you differ, it's fine. It turns out 129 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 3: that they are at the tolerant bunch. So anyways, Reason 130 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 3: allowed me to work there. It helped raise my profile. 131 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 3: I've just been doing journalism for thirty eight years now, 132 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 3: and so in most. 133 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 2: Of that I am not a tough call. 134 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 3: I really am not. No, and you know, until I 135 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 3: was in my mid thirties, I was. I pretty much 136 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 3: lived in poverty with the exception not me, not I 137 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 3: didn't grow up that way, but like as professional with 138 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 3: the exception of a couple of years here and there, 139 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 3: and and so you can go from you know, obscurity toiling. 140 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,119 Speaker 3: But if you do that in such a way where 141 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 3: you keep doing work that interests you and hopefully do 142 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 3: it in a way that is interesting. And then also 143 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 3: I've been involved a lot of different media startups over 144 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 3: the years. Most of them failed just by definition, but 145 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 3: some of them stick a little bit, and so that 146 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 3: tends to kind of jack up your profile here and there. 147 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 3: So I've just been fortunate. Like so many people I 148 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 3: know who like I went to school with really really 149 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 3: talented journalists, they pieced out at some point kind of early. 150 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 2: They got burned out on. 151 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 3: It because they didn't get to keep right either about 152 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 3: the stuff that interested in them or in a way 153 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 3: that interested them. And I've been fortunate, and the last 154 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 3: twenty years had some success. 155 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: So I don't consider myself a libertarian. I'm a libertarian 156 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 1: leaning conservative, I guess, but I love libertarians, and not 157 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: just because you guys throw the best parties. I always 158 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: talk about it on here how Reason always has the 159 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: best parties. But even before I knew you, I knew 160 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: you like on people's photo accounts as having these amazing 161 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 1: parties in La in your backyard, like I had never 162 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: met you. Actually, the first time that we ever met, 163 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 1: sadly was at Andrew Breitbart shortly after he passed. We 164 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: had like a barvant But I knew you from Jackie 165 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 1: Di Nicky's and Kathy Sape's photo accounts is having these 166 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: like really cool parties in your LA backyard. And I 167 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:52,679 Speaker 1: didn't think you'd ever leave La, but you did. What 168 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: made you go? 169 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 3: So I had been I worked for a Reason for 170 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 3: a couple of years and off and on as a columnist, 171 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 3: and then the La Times hired me to be the 172 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 3: assistant editorial pages editor, and then when and I did 173 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 3: that for two years, and then when Reason got a 174 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 3: bunch of money, and then impetus from Drew Carey Television's 175 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 3: very owned Drew Carey to start a video division way 176 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 3: before everyone else was pivoting the video So we started 177 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 3: Reason TV back in two thousand and seven. I want 178 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 3: to say so, but we had to like learn from scratch. 179 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 3: So Nick g Lespie was the editor of the magazine 180 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 3: at the time, said Okay, I will go and help 181 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 3: start that, but I need someone to audit the magazine 182 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:39,319 Speaker 3: in the meantime, And so he invited me, and as 183 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 3: did David not and reason it just opened up. It's 184 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 3: still headquartered in Los Angeles on the West Side, but 185 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 3: it had just started up a DC office for the 186 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 3: first time. It's sort of a main editorial office after 187 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 3: years of being very dispersed, and I thought, I'm going 188 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 3: to manage human beings, I might as well go where 189 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:01,559 Speaker 3: they're working. And and it was, you know, it was 190 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 3: an opportunity. I've been I've been in LA for ten 191 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 3: years at that point, and I'm born and raised Long Beach, 192 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:09,319 Speaker 3: and so like, yeah, let's see something new. Let's see 193 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 3: what Washington's like. I didn't like Washington. I didn't last there. 194 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 3: Four years was enough, but but he was. It was 195 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:19,079 Speaker 3: a good reason to come cross country and see how. 196 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 2: The other half lived. 197 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: Are you still having parties. 198 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 2: Fewer and fewer? 199 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 3: Uh No, that's the sad truth is and always has been. 200 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 3: Like I'm kind of a professional extrovert who's kind of introverted, 201 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:40,319 Speaker 3: So I don't really I don't like to I'm able 202 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 3: to converse with people, but it's it's taxing. So yeah, 203 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 3: we still we had reason, had a great party last week, 204 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 3: and you know, be throwing parties here and there, but 205 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:55,199 Speaker 3: it's not quite the same. In that backyard was pretty 206 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 3: pretty special. It's just like a stupid Hollywood dirt bungalow 207 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 3: with party possum out back. But LA is such a 208 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 3: great freelance town. So you had all these people who 209 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 3: don't have really anything in common, certainly not politics. I 210 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 3: mean Andrew Breitbart's hanging out there all the time. His 211 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 3: politics of mine were not the same. And uh and 212 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:16,840 Speaker 3: Kathy Sibe you mentioned, who was wonderful and we all 213 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 3: miss Hurt as well. But like they are all people 214 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 3: who work in their kind of silos. And what we 215 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 3: tried to do in our social lives and kind of 216 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 3: in our professional lives too with a couple of different 217 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 3: media startups that again failed, was to sort of like 218 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 3: coalesce and recognize that there's so much talent in LA 219 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 3: that was not being represented at the La Times, which 220 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 3: is the main institution at the time. Let's have him 221 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 3: in our backyard, and let's have him. Let's throw book 222 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 3: parties and so there's a lot of a lot of 223 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:45,439 Speaker 3: effort to kind of get people to get in their 224 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 3: cars and go to a place and uh, and it 225 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 3: was very very fun. 226 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: I have very fun laffort. Do you have a beat 227 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:56,559 Speaker 1: at reason? Do you let you have something you particularly 228 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 1: like to write about? 229 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 3: You know, I started way back when as being a 230 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 3: media columnist, and I still do that a lot. I 231 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 3: have a feature in the current issue of the magazine 232 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 3: with the headline of politics without Journalism that kind of 233 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 3: used the twenty twenty four election as an opportunity to say, hey, look, 234 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 3: this is a real moment when we've seen the kind 235 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 3: of final collapse of legacy media institutions. And I think 236 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 3: even people like you and me, you've been writing and 237 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 3: talking about this and noticing this for a long time, 238 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 3: tend to underrate how much the business, the industry of 239 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 3: journalism has collapsed and the basic building block units are 240 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 3: not there anymore. The La Times, for one example, I mean, 241 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety, when I was turned twenty two and 242 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 3: I had a lot of friends who worked there, La 243 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:51,679 Speaker 3: Times was the most profitable newspaper in the history of 244 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 3: the world. They had thirteen hundred employees on the editorial side. 245 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 3: I mean we'd get at the the paper, and especially 246 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 3: on Thursdays and Sundays, but not only it was a 247 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:06,439 Speaker 3: phone book and just cough, funk on. It was called 248 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 3: the velvet coffin because you get a job there, get 249 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 3: tons of money, always fly first class, and no one 250 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 3: would ever see you again because the paper was so 251 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 3: big that your stuff would get buried, and it was 252 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 3: it was tough to get visibility. So it's gone from 253 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 3: that to like it's you know, twenty or thirty pages 254 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 3: from no ads. Now it like just it loses thirty 255 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:29,839 Speaker 3: forty million dollars a month and it just doesn't matter 256 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 3: in the same way. I mean, it was a it 257 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 3: was a king maker in the entire West, including like 258 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:37,319 Speaker 3: an anti labor kingmaker. 259 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 2: You know, the. 260 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:42,319 Speaker 3: Motto in the front of the building was true Industrial Freedom, 261 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 3: and like the labor unions were bombing the place and 262 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 3: stuff because they were so vociferously anti union them in 263 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 3: the Chicago Tribune. So it went from that and like 264 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 3: making Richard Nixon's career, you know, reshaping the West. I mean, 265 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:58,560 Speaker 3: Chinatown is the story of the of the Chandler family 266 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 3: in a sense of the way that they kind of 267 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 3: rigged the whole system there, but they went from there 268 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 3: to and then you know, also having a lot of great, 269 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 3: just wonderful journalists, and the sports section was astonishing growing up. 270 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 3: And it just doesn't matter anymore. So long way of saying, 271 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 3: I'm still writing about the media and doing that. Starting 272 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 3: before COVID, I started writing a lot more about education 273 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 3: because my own kids were starting to go through the 274 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 3: New York City education process, and I had no idea 275 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 3: how much I was going to be like calling this 276 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 3: in advance. But when my neighborhood in Brooklyn, which is 277 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 3: not far from where you lived, same district, if I'm 278 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 3: not mistaken, District fifteen decided to be a trail blazer 279 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 3: on changing admissions standards in the name of equity. And 280 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 3: I wrote a really long feature about this, and I 281 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 3: don't know it twenty eighteen or so, twenty nineteen, and 282 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 3: I had to participate in all of these meetings because 283 00:14:57,720 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 3: one kid was going into middle school right as they 284 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 3: were changing all those rules. The other kid was starting 285 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 3: to get into kindergarten right as they were changing those 286 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 3: rules too, and the boundaries, and so I like, I 287 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 3: was meetings all the time, and I could not believe 288 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 3: how those meetings went like it was stunning to watch, 289 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 3: you know, official councils of government or even community education councils, 290 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 3: which are kind quase governmental. You know, a well meeting 291 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 3: parent asked a question and they are told in public 292 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 3: that they are a racist. And this is a nice 293 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 3: Swedish guy who's like, I totally support what you're doing 294 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 3: and everything about it. What are you going to tell 295 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 3: parents in case some parents decided to leave, I'm not 296 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 3: going to leave. I support you. And they're like, I 297 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 3: can't believe I had to hear such racism. That dude 298 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 3: that he's a character in one of the stories he 299 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 3: left he moved away from Brooklyn because it sucks to 300 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 3: be called a racist if you're not like working for 301 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 3: the New York Post and have a little bit of 302 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 3: a thicker skin. So I started with that that, you know, 303 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 3: and then all the COVID policies that came, and you 304 00:15:58,000 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 3: and I have talked about this a lot in the past, 305 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 3: so I ended up writing a whole lot about about 306 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 3: that stuff, and then I just shout to write about 307 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 3: national politics in general. 308 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: I would say, yeah, I can't believe I think that 309 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: that twenty eighteen era in Brooklyn was actually the precursor 310 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 1: to the twenty twenty era nationally where everything became racist. 311 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 1: But it was hard to see it spreading. I always 312 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: thought it was like, you know, just Brooklyn insanity, Like 313 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 1: where we lived was super super left. We made that 314 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 1: foolish choice for ourselves, and we were going to have 315 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 1: to live with that. But I never thought it would 316 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: spread the way it did. And I feel like I'm 317 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 1: much more careful now about bad ideas that are localized 318 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: coming out of their local problems. 319 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 3: I in my original piece on this, I positive that 320 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 3: this was going to come to a school district near 321 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 3: you because of the style of argumentation. I thought that 322 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 3: that was the kind of turnkey on rice, which is 323 00:16:57,680 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 3: to say that people. 324 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 2: Found a way. It's kind of like the you know. 325 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:08,359 Speaker 3: Slap lawsuits, strategic lawsuits against public participation. It's a whole 326 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:12,120 Speaker 3: category in the law where you know, sometimes a big corporation, 327 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 3: let's say, or the Church of Scientology or something, will 328 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 3: if you write negative things about them, they'll just sue you, 329 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 3: sue you, sue you in even if they're going to lose, 330 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 3: and they know they're going to lose. But it sucks 331 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:27,199 Speaker 3: to have to like defend yourself. So there's this category 332 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 3: in the law where you can file a slap lawsuit saying, hey, look, 333 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 3: you're doing a strategic lawsuit to prevent me from engaging 334 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 3: in public discourse. Well, I thought that that was the 335 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 3: comp for what was happening at those meetings. They were 336 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,920 Speaker 3: taking normal people, consumers of a public education K through 337 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:49,119 Speaker 3: twelve good, asking normal questions and driving them away from 338 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:51,920 Speaker 3: the process and saying no, you must. And actually the 339 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 3: moment that really was the aha for us. We went 340 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 3: to a big community meeting with Brad Lander, who now 341 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:01,120 Speaker 3: wants to be mayor in our we're city council in here. 342 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 2: The worst people to push through. 343 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:07,159 Speaker 3: This equity plan, and it was supposed to be it 344 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 3: was billed as we're going to take a community input, 345 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 3: we're going to talk about it. And so that filled 346 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 3: a big auditorium near the park and hundreds of people, 347 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 3: like way more people than they thought that was going 348 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,199 Speaker 3: to be there, and you know, and the crowd was 349 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:23,400 Speaker 3: on edge, like what are you doing, You're like changing 350 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 3: the concept here is changing And one woman finally sort 351 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 3: of like breaks through with a question forty five minutes 352 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,719 Speaker 3: in and the way that everybody he and then all 353 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:34,880 Speaker 3: the people who were on the sort of activist groups 354 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:38,160 Speaker 3: who obviously got government money to like push their ideas 355 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 3: through cording'ed her off and say, oh no, there's going 356 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:43,440 Speaker 3: to be time for this. We're going to have breakout groups, 357 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:45,400 Speaker 3: We're going to do this, do that. And I went 358 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 3: to one of those breakout groups and like the woman 359 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 3: wasn't taking notes and was like a college student and 360 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:54,120 Speaker 3: she didn't care, Like you saw you are trying to manage, yeah, 361 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 3: and drive people away from the discussion. And like I thought, 362 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 3: oh my god, that is a very effective tactic, and like, 363 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:03,959 Speaker 3: just make the field smaller of people who are going 364 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 3: to play, then you can dominate the field if you 365 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,880 Speaker 3: have like money and the passion and the networks. And 366 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 3: by doing this you were going to come up with 367 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 3: crazy ideas. But also since you are in a big 368 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:19,360 Speaker 3: democratic places, you know, you've just elected the politicians who 369 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:21,679 Speaker 3: are going to negotiate your next union contract. It's just 370 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:24,439 Speaker 3: you could see the whole cycle unfolding. But even with 371 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:26,199 Speaker 3: all of that, and with the prediction, I had no 372 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 3: idea how fast it would all come true. Holy cow, 373 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 3: that was nuts. 374 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: So I have to I feel like I have to 375 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 1: specify for the audience because we didn't define what they 376 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 1: were doing to the schools. But basically, this District fifteen 377 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 1: is a super left area of Brooklyn. It's largely wealthy. 378 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,880 Speaker 1: I would say, right, it's to mix to mix. 379 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 3: But Park Slope is in the middle of it, which 380 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 3: you know, it's where Chris Hayes lives and stuff and 381 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 3: has the famous food co op and and my neighborhood 382 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 3: here and kind of Carroll Gardens and Cobble Hills very 383 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:57,400 Speaker 3: well to do, right. 384 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: So what they did was they got they decid that 385 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 1: screens for schools, which is looking at kids' grades or 386 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:09,159 Speaker 1: attendance or behavior or testing, any of that would be 387 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 1: done away with because having those screens in place were 388 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:16,160 Speaker 1: racist and were contributing to some schools being better schools 389 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:18,640 Speaker 1: than others, and you couldn't have that. And the best 390 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: part of this story, of course, to me, is that 391 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: the politicians that were most actively against these screens, Brad Lander, 392 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 1: who now wants to be mayor of New York City, 393 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 1: Mayor Bill de Blasio, who was the previous mayor of 394 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: New York City, they sent their kids to the schools 395 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: that had the screens, but now that their kids are 396 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:39,160 Speaker 1: out of school, they felt that those screens were obviously 397 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 1: obviously racist. 398 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,680 Speaker 3: Like literally right when their kids graduated, it was like, Oh, 399 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 3: we have to break up these bastions and privilege. It's 400 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:50,959 Speaker 3: just really terrible, you know, And it had a predicted effect. 401 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 3: That school, in particular MS fifty one as it is, 402 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,119 Speaker 3: was turned overnight from one of the most desirable and 403 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 3: successful schools rules in the city to being a basket case. 404 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:08,639 Speaker 3: They've they've cycled through principles. It's just been terrible discipline 405 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:11,360 Speaker 3: issues like it like it had to predict the results. 406 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 3: I was even agnostic about some of these changes. It 407 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 3: was more that seeing the way that they were being argued, 408 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 3: I had objections to just like you can't tell your consumer, 409 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 3: your tax payer these types of things. That's just awful. 410 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 3: It's really thuggish type of behavior. And then it sort 411 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:33,399 Speaker 3: of led me to be more skeptical of those types 412 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 3: of changes over time and it did more research. But yeah, 413 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 3: it has not it has not worked out great for 414 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:39,640 Speaker 3: New York schools at all. 415 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 1: Well, it was obvious also, you know, again the well 416 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:45,120 Speaker 1: to do part, because I thought that anybody who didn't 417 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 1: get into the school that they wanted, and if those 418 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,239 Speaker 1: schools did start to fail, could easily just pull their 419 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: kid out and go to private school, which is what 420 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 1: I know a lot of people did could make feel like, 421 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: including you, Oh and I know that. Yeah, I think 422 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 1: that that's you know, clearly the what ended up being 423 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,879 Speaker 1: the result of this process where they were trying to 424 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 1: force equity and what they ended up doing was pushing 425 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 1: people out of the system. 426 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean it's a it's a big underrated 427 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 3: part of our aspect of American public life and politics, 428 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 3: Like super underrated is that we've already passed peak public 429 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:23,360 Speaker 3: school The number of kids enrolled in public K through 430 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:28,159 Speaker 3: twelve schools was just over fifty million in twenty nineteen. 431 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 3: It's never going to be that high agend, even as 432 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 3: the population grows. 433 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 2: It's not. 434 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:37,160 Speaker 3: And if you further tweak it and say, okay, it's 435 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 3: not just the public schools, because charter schools are technically 436 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:45,360 Speaker 3: public schools, but they're not managed by governmental agencies, then 437 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 3: the peak was in twenty twelve, and we're talking about 438 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 3: twenty five percent of state and local budgets go to 439 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 3: K through twelve education for this product, which people a 440 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 3: free product which people are running away from screaming. And 441 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,160 Speaker 3: then we've just had school choice bills or a school 442 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 3: choice fairly universal passed in a dozen states. This is 443 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 3: all breaking up right now. It's large, it's one of 444 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 3: the largest public policy issues, and it kind of gets 445 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 3: talked about a little bit here and there. Most people 446 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 3: just sort of yammer about the Department of Education as 447 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 3: if that really really matters, and it's it is interesting 448 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 3: and it's not insignificant. But the biggest single thing is 449 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:25,239 Speaker 3: that you built all these schools. Like in la they 450 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 3: won on a historic building spree called the biggest public 451 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 3: works project west of the Big Dig in Boston in 452 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 3: the early aughts that I covered a lot because they 453 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 3: used a lot of eminent domain to like bulldoze neighborhoods 454 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 3: in order to educate them. They built these huge schools 455 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:41,880 Speaker 3: and no one's in them. 456 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:42,879 Speaker 2: Now, what do you do? 457 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 3: And I don't think people have really thought through that. 458 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 3: Now they've had all this COVID money that is just 459 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:52,199 Speaker 3: now finally starting to end, so they've had these artificial 460 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 3: kind of sugar high of being able to hire more teachers, 461 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 3: these buildings to the teacher to student ratio or the 462 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:02,879 Speaker 3: administration to student ratios are insane. So it's a huge 463 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 3: issue and we're going to be seeing that on state 464 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 3: and local levels for the next decade at least. 465 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break and be right 466 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 1: back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. What do you worry about? 467 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 3: I have worried since nine to eleven, and then accelerating 468 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 3: after that with the rise of both Donald Trump and 469 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,400 Speaker 3: Bernie Sanders, kind of the rise of left and right populism, 470 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 3: that not only just that we're in the unraveling of 471 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 3: what happened of all the institution building and the ideas 472 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 3: in the post World War two kind of international which 473 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,200 Speaker 3: the US was very much in the driver's seat of 474 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 3: and help shape, and what I think was hugely beneficial 475 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 3: to mankind, including your terrible people. And so that is unraveling. 476 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 3: And what I worry about is that in the unraveling 477 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 3: and in the sort of populist revolt against that, large 478 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,920 Speaker 3: part of which is understandable because elites have really crapped 479 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 3: the bed, that we're going to get to a much 480 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:10,360 Speaker 3: more or we continue to get to a much more 481 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:12,879 Speaker 3: kind of nineteen thirties vibe. And I don't mean that 482 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:17,199 Speaker 3: to go Hitler, Hitler, but rather to say that, you know, 483 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,239 Speaker 3: nineteen thirties was a time of a great loss of 484 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:24,399 Speaker 3: faith in the old democracies in England. You know, to 485 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 3: read the writings of George Orwell, it's always really interesting. 486 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 3: You know, He's like, well, certainly capitalism is going to fail, 487 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 3: so it's going to be a question between socialism and fascism. 488 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 3: And that was kind of a normal way of thinking, 489 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 3: and even of a clear eyed guy like he was. 490 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:43,159 Speaker 3: And then also every you know, the sort of a 491 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 3: zero sum sense of competition between nations as opposed to 492 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 3: a cooperative arrangement where the US has an understanding that 493 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:54,680 Speaker 3: you know, France will be a much better reliable partner 494 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 3: if it is participating in a free trade zone with 495 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 3: Germany and other people, and they can enrich themselves and 496 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,119 Speaker 3: then pay for more of their security and so on 497 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 3: and so on. And you'll compare that against the commis 498 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 3: and the commedies are going to look worse and worse 499 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 3: when we lose that, when we get into you know, 500 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 3: a series of of we're erecting tariffs again, We're it's 501 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:21,439 Speaker 3: it's there's a danger associated with that, more chance of 502 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:28,199 Speaker 3: war more the long great eradication more or less of 503 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:31,440 Speaker 3: international poverty, which has happened over the last three four decades, 504 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,440 Speaker 3: just stunning, the whole kind of post nineteen eighty nine 505 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 3: incredible success. I worry that that might backslide, but also 506 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 3: like it. It's a very rich country type of concern 507 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,119 Speaker 3: in the same way that we almost lost faith in 508 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 3: the nineteen thirties in America in our own kind of 509 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:53,880 Speaker 3: sense of faith in the liberal order, in the liberal, capitalistic, 510 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 3: liberal science kind of project. I don't mean that left wing. 511 00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:01,160 Speaker 3: I mean that just that the Enlightenment is worth worth 512 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 3: continuing with. There's been I think a lot of cost 513 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 3: playing with people who are like I'm done with the Enlightenment, 514 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,160 Speaker 3: not if already with these things, and I worry where 515 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 3: that's going to go. So it's not a day to 516 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 3: day like, oh my god, we're going to have fascism. 517 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 2: I think a lot of that. 518 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 3: I think almost all of that is insane, and we 519 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 3: spend a lot of time in the Fifth Column, especially 520 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,159 Speaker 3: poking holes in that. But it's a broader worry that 521 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,199 Speaker 3: we're in a twenty or thirty year rut and I 522 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 3: don't know what how that we cycle out him. 523 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 1: It's interesting because I think a lot of what you say, 524 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: actually you know is libertarian, right that, you know, being 525 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 1: against tariffs and all of that, But then the kind 526 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,959 Speaker 1: of trust in systems is that is that typically libertarian? 527 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,919 Speaker 3: No, but there is a libertarian and I think Nickollspie 528 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,920 Speaker 3: has a lot of times a sense of conflict about 529 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,119 Speaker 3: this because he's like, screw the institutions, they suck, and 530 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 3: then also in his next breath is like, it's a 531 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 3: real big problem when there's a collapse of trust in 532 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 3: everything because societies that stop trusting things, the solutions that 533 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 3: they reach for are are anti libertarian or anti smart 534 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,159 Speaker 3: or anti prosperous, like that, you reach for the stick 535 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 3: in that moment. So we're kind of in a reaching 536 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 3: for the stick moment. There are reasons to have some hope. 537 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 3: You know, I didn't vote for Donald Trump and was 538 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 3: not rooting for him to win. I do see some hope, 539 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:31,440 Speaker 3: and kind of unexpectedly so with doge effects of Vivacronama 540 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 3: Swaman and Elon Musk, it's actually more thought out than 541 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 3: I would have expected from the way that those two 542 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 3: have been conducting themselves publicly up up until they started 543 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 3: implementing this at least as a concept. And then Javier 544 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 3: mela is just like he has shown a different international path, 545 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 3: has Trump's ear, has like success to point to. And 546 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 3: he's a crazy libertarian. I mean literally a crazy libertarian 547 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,719 Speaker 3: who clones his dogs and names them after libertarian economists. 548 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,479 Speaker 3: That's nuts, like doesn't wash his hair. He's the weirdest 549 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 3: libertarian you know, is half as weird as Hawvr Malaius. 550 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 2: There are reasons well. 551 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 3: After you know, some weird Yeah, we all do the 552 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 3: blue faced guy and stuff. Yeah, but there are reasons 553 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 3: to think that, you know, we might have some aspects 554 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 3: for hope, but the the broader term thing, and this 555 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 3: is also I mean you said the most libertarians are 556 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 3: not really institutions. This is why I didn't describe myself 557 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 3: as a libertarian necessarily as part of it. Like I saw. 558 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 3: I see to this day, at least looking in history, 559 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 3: that the creation of the institutional Cold War order was 560 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 3: a good thing. The creation of NATO was a good thing. 561 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 3: The the International Monetary Fund, the World Bank, the UH, 562 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 3: the the precursors of the EU, which you know, the 563 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,160 Speaker 3: trading community between all those countries was an important, the 564 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 3: necessary thing and the long term global mutual reduction of 565 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 3: tariffs that went along with that. I see all of 566 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 3: that as essential at the time for what it was doing. 567 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 3: My criticism of that order is that people got lazy. 568 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 3: And then also after we won the Cold War, we 569 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 3: didn't push for a post Cold War settlement in which 570 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 3: we would stop being the major, the main player character 571 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 3: in everything Europe I mean, which is a very much 572 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 3: a Europe's own fault for that. Europe should have devised 573 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 3: its own security arrangements after the end of the Cold 574 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 3: War instead of like, I don't know, you do it. 575 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 3: And I think so much of our modern problems stem 576 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 3: from that. And then the people who I had otherwise 577 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 3: agreed with in the kind of institution building post World 578 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 3: War two became very arrogant and stopped paying attention to 579 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 3: the importance the necessity of having public input. 580 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 2: You've got to you've got to have. 581 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 3: Public and political legitimacy for what you're doing. You can't 582 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 3: just say like, no, this is how we do it. 583 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 2: Shut up. 584 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 3: And they've been doing this is how we do it. 585 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 3: Shut up for a really long time. And I think 586 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 3: that is as much why we're in the moment that 587 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 3: we're in as anything else. 588 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 1: What advice would you give your sixteen year old self, 589 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 1: sixteen year old Matt Welch, what do you say? 590 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 3: Sure, there's a couple of ways of looking at that. 591 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 3: One is that, you know, the boys kind of are 592 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 3: a little they go through their crisis I think a 593 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 3: little bit later than girls, at least. It's my anecdotal 594 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 3: observation having I have a sixteen year old daughter and 595 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 3: the twelve to fifteen was not awesome, not all. But 596 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 3: she's pretty good now and has a job at McDonald's. So, 597 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 3: like you know, Donald Trump, just like Donald Trump, she 598 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 3: appreciates all that. And I don't know if it's like 599 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 3: Kamala Harris or not, don't have that confirmed, but you know, 600 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 3: on one level, well, it's like, develop a work ethic, 601 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 3: show up on time, and it'll all sort itself out. 602 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:08,959 Speaker 3: Have faith in like ten years or twelve years when 603 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 3: you go through your crisis, if you're at least doing that, 604 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 3: This is the cat Temp recipe for success. She was 605 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 3: an absolute mess of a human being for a long time, 606 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 3: dear friend of ours, but she had an incredible work ethic, 607 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 3: showed up on time and did whatever it took. So 608 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 3: you can buy yourself time and habits by doing that. 609 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 3: But I would if I actually was talking to sixteen 610 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 3: year old Matt, I think he knew that what I 611 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 3: would tell him to do with a finger and a 612 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 3: fist probably is like, don't learn how to lie. Stop 613 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 3: learning how to lie. Like I think you know, me 614 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 3: from sixteen to twenty five was pretty like tumultuous, an 615 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 3: eventful and productive period of time in my life. But 616 00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 3: like when you sort of procrastinate whatever and then and 617 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:05,400 Speaker 3: like have to come up with an excuse of why 618 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 3: you didn't make it happen, you start inventing like these 619 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 3: fabulous ideas of any Everyone knows you're lying, dude, you're 620 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 3: bad at it because you're sixteed, but you kind of 621 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 3: do it anyways because you just need to get out 622 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 3: of the thing that's right in front of you. Once 623 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 3: you start lying, then you're screwed because you're building up 624 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 3: these edifices. If I look at at like the major 625 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 3: cockups that I was involved with from the age of 626 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 3: sixteen too, I don't know twenty five, but probably earlier. 627 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 3: It's just that it's just like I couldn't face the 628 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 3: thing in front of me, and then I tried to 629 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 3: wiggle it out, and the ramifications were bad and hurt 630 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 3: people and did wrong things. So don't learn how to lie. 631 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,959 Speaker 3: It's a bad skill. It's better just to take your 632 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 3: lumps in the moment, tell people you didn't do the 633 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 3: thing that you needed to do or whatever, and then 634 00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 3: move on from there. 635 00:33:58,240 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 2: Like I when my. 636 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 1: It's like, it's an unusual answer because people usually don't 637 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 1: acknowledge that they've ever lied. 638 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:10,320 Speaker 3: You know, everybody has has been a dick at some point. 639 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:10,720 Speaker 2: In their lives. 640 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:12,800 Speaker 1: That's more than others. 641 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 3: You know, when my now sixteen year old was twelve 642 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 3: and I could see it coming, I was like, that 643 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,080 Speaker 3: was what I told her. It was like, don't stop 644 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 3: it now, stop lying now, and you'll have a chance 645 00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:29,920 Speaker 3: to pull. 646 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 2: Out of the skit. And she's out of the skid now. 647 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 2: So that's helpful. 648 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 1: Well, I've loved this conversation. You're really one of my favorites. 649 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 1: I love reading all your stuff. You're just excellent. And 650 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,439 Speaker 1: here with your best tip for my listeners on how 651 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,239 Speaker 1: they can improve their lives. And maybe that's just don't 652 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:45,720 Speaker 1: be a liar. 653 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 3: Also, that's also helpful. I think everyone could use to 654 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 3: put the cap back on the toothpaste. And what I 655 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 3: mean by that is I remember again being a no good, 656 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:00,400 Speaker 3: probably late twenties guy, and I was thinking of someone 657 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 3: a friend. I'm like, oh, he or she is the 658 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:05,800 Speaker 3: type of person who always has their cap on their toothpaste. 659 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 3: And then I thought, for a second, why aren't I 660 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 3: the type of pay That's not hard, is it? But 661 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 3: like I was a slob, and so like, start doing 662 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:19,279 Speaker 3: making tiny stupid little just have it change, because those 663 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:21,799 Speaker 3: are the easiest ones to sustain. Okay, I'll just do 664 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,080 Speaker 3: this every time. And once you start doing that every 665 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,640 Speaker 3: time and you pocket that one build up from there 666 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:28,799 Speaker 3: of the thing that you should be doing. 667 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:30,279 Speaker 2: I think about this even right now, Like. 668 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:33,799 Speaker 3: I read a piece of this week about a guy 669 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:34,400 Speaker 3: who reads. 670 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 2: One hundred pages a day. I'm not gonna do that. 671 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 3: But I have the say that like a bunch of 672 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 3: us that like, because of the way that we consume media, 673 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,480 Speaker 3: especially social media, that we've cut down our reading. Well, 674 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,799 Speaker 3: ok for what's a little programmatic habitual change that I 675 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,040 Speaker 3: can enact in order to do that? So it's like, 676 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:57,080 Speaker 3: all right, late at night, that's when I'll do some reading. 677 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,080 Speaker 3: Something stupid, So put the cap on the toothpase, make 678 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:05,359 Speaker 3: an incremental habitual or change to your habits, and then 679 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:07,399 Speaker 3: once you got that, move on to the next one 680 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 3: and you can continue doing that until. 681 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:13,840 Speaker 1: Your data so good. Thank you so much, Matt. He 682 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:15,640 Speaker 1: is Matt Welch. You could check him out at Reason 683 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:19,319 Speaker 1: Magazine subscribe to his podcast, The Fifth Column. Thank you 684 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 1: so much, Matt. Thank you, Carol, thanks so much for 685 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,440 Speaker 1: joining us on the Carol Marco which show. Subscribe wherever 686 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.