1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told you. From house Supports 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 3 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,599 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline, and today we're talking about the late 4 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: great Nina Simone and Caroline. What would be the podcast 5 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 1: version of a biopic? A biopod? Oh? Yeah, which which 6 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: is a biocast? A biocast which sounds like some kind 7 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: of medical equipment. Yeah, probably is. Actually it probably already is. 8 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 1: We're probably getting sued right now. So many trademark violations 9 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: happening already. Um. Yeah, so we're talking about Nina Simone 10 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: and Caroline. I gotta confess to you that I did 11 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: not grow up listening to Nina Simone. I mean I 12 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 1: would hear her songs every now and then, but I 13 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: wasn't a hardcore Nina Simone fan, although like probably everyone 14 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: who was born in the midnight between eighties can attest um, 15 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 1: the first time I heard her name was in Lauren 16 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 1: Hill rapping with the Fuji's on Ready or Not, where 17 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:12,839 Speaker 1: she was like ebbi a capone and I'll be Nina 18 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 1: Simone and defecating on your microphone because I was like 19 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 1: homeschoold and white and like rapping in Suburbia. Yeah, I 20 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: think we were doing that at the same time. Probably 21 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: I was in I was in Marietta doing that, which 22 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: now I'm picturing like one of those American Tale moments, 23 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: you know, where they're both looking at the moon from 24 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,040 Speaker 1: and a little Christen and little Caroline, where we're singing 25 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: and dancing along with the fujis listening to our discman, 26 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: our disc women at the same time. Right, um, But recently, Caroline, 27 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:46,759 Speaker 1: my eyes have been opened, or my ears, I guess 28 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 1: I should say, have been opened to the genius of 29 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: Nina Simone. Because for a long time, you know, I 30 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: knew who she was, and I knew that she's saying 31 00:01:55,560 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 1: all these standards and was this iconic figure in jazz history, 32 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: but I really didn't know that much about the breadth 33 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: of her catalog and her genius and also her role 34 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 1: as a civil rights activist. And I learned a lot 35 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:17,399 Speaker 1: of this on the Netflix documentary What Happened Miss Simone, 36 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: directed by Liz Garbas Yeah, what Happened Miss Simone? Which 37 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 1: is a line from a piece by Maya Angelou about her, 38 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:29,079 Speaker 1: which was really fascinating to read because my Angelo was 39 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: obviously a great writer. But the way that she profiles 40 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: Nina Simone is is also very fascinating, and but it's 41 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: also very warm. She obviously loves the person that she's 42 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 1: talking about. Yeah, and it's interesting to characterize it as 43 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 1: a as a warm piece, because Nina Simone wouldn't be 44 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: called warm by everyone in her life. She was. Um. 45 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 1: Liz Garbas was actually talking to NPR about Nina Simone 46 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: and the documentary and she was saying, how, Um, she 47 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 1: could easily be characterized as a difficult woman, but how 48 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 1: a lot of times, Um, that is often a sexist 49 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: portrayal because there were plenty of men in music who 50 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: were geniuses and we're also very difficult men, but they 51 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 1: were just geniuses. Yeah, it's tough, full stop, stopped there. Um. Yeah, 52 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: I I watched the documentary just on the edge of 53 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: my seat. I thought it was fascinating and like you, 54 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: I mean, I had a general awareness of Nina Simone 55 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: and um, and a lot of controversy was stirred up 56 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:32,639 Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, not too long ago, when 57 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 1: news first hit that they were going to make that 58 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 1: biopick about her, and it was sort of up in 59 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 1: the air for a while. Who would portray her. I mean, 60 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 1: there's a million great actresses out there who uh, you know, 61 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: could potentially look like Nina Simone, which is actually a 62 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: big deal that we'll talk about in a little bit, um, 63 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: But they went with Zoe Saldana, who's cast and created 64 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: so much controversy. And so I had been more and 65 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: more aware for the last couple of years, and then 66 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 1: watching this documentary was just fast sinating. Yeah, and her 67 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: bio touches on so many things too that we've talked 68 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: about in the podcast before. And um, we also want 69 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: to note that there is some tragically relevant timing for 70 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: the release of that Netflix documentary. Um that attracted a 71 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: ton of press just on its own, um, but it 72 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 1: came out on Netflix the same day President Obama delivered 73 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:29,719 Speaker 1: the eulogy for slain South Carolina Senator Clementa C. Pinckney, 74 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: who was murdered, um, along with those seven others at 75 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 1: Charleston's Emmanuel Methodist Episcopal Church. And it would be a 76 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: similar church horror and an act of racist murder that 77 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:50,799 Speaker 1: would alter the trajectory of Nina Simone's life and career. Yeah, exactly. 78 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: But speaking of that trajectory, we have to talk about 79 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:58,239 Speaker 1: how she even came to music in the first place. 80 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:01,919 Speaker 1: She was born in nine thirty three as Eunice Wayman 81 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: in try On, North Carolina, and she was the sixth 82 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 1: of eight kids. Her mom was a Methodist preacher and 83 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: her dad was an entertainer and handyman. And here it 84 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:16,160 Speaker 1: comes little Eunice, who's basically a musical prodigy. I mean 85 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 1: she took to the organ at two and a half 86 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: years old and started playing at her mother's church services. Yeah, 87 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: so here we go, touching on our episode a while 88 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:29,720 Speaker 1: back on child prodigies. Um, she absolutely was one of them. 89 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:32,600 Speaker 1: And in addition to her mom being a Methodist preacher, 90 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 1: she's also a housekeeper and um, a white woman. Her 91 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 1: mother cleaned houses for notice little Unie's talent and offered 92 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 1: to pay for lessons with a local British piano teacher 93 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: named Muriel Mazan Novik a k a. Ms Mazzi, whom 94 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 1: Nina Stamon would later describe as my white mama. And 95 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 1: she started playing you know, like you said, at her 96 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: mother's church services and really developed a reputation in Tryon, 97 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:04,840 Speaker 1: which is a tiny, tiny down um which you can 98 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 1: almost miss if you blink. Um. So she developed this 99 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 1: reputation for being like the town prodigy, and so she 100 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 1: started taking these lessons and would have regular recitals because 101 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: people would want to come see her play. And she 102 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 1: later cited a recital when she was eleven, although I've 103 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 1: also seen twelve m but regardless, and when she was young, 104 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 1: this recital was her first time experiencing real anger at 105 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: racial discrimination because her parents were asked to move from 106 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 1: the front row to the back so that a white 107 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: couple could take their place, and at eleven or twelve 108 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:46,719 Speaker 1: years old, she stopped her recital and refused to play 109 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: until her parents were allowed to resume their seats in 110 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 1: the front row. Yeah, and she talks about in the 111 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 1: documentary how she's not even sure that she was aware 112 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:59,679 Speaker 1: of the time that it was what what that meant, 113 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 1: and sincearily she just knew that it was wrong and 114 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 1: that she wanted her parents back in the front row. 115 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: But that was definitely sort of a critical moment for 116 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: her in her development um And she went on to 117 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: study at Juilliard for a summer, with her sights set 118 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: on getting into the Curtis Institute of Music in Philadelphia, 119 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: which ended up declining her application, and she was convinced 120 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 1: at the time that it was based on her race. 121 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: It was not until later that she found out that 122 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: other African American students had been accepted. But again, this 123 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: was another turning point. She had been offered a scholarship 124 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: at Oberlin, but she turned it down she thought it 125 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 1: was beneath her. But all along, this desire to become 126 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: a classical musician, to be taken seriously, for her music 127 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 1: to really perform, to get to Carnegie Hall, it really 128 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: haunted her. Yeah, I mean, she talks about how she 129 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 1: fell in love with Bach and that was her primary obsession. 130 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: And it was worth noting too that she had so 131 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: much of a stake in getting into her artists because 132 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: it would have offered her free tuition. And before she 133 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 1: had been ultimately rejected from the school, her family had 134 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: even moved to Philadelphia, and her even being able to 135 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: study at Juilliard had been partially funded by townspeople in 136 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 1: try And who raised money for her to go. So 137 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: this is like old school kickstarter essentially, and that money 138 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: had run out and all of a sudden, her families 139 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 1: in Philadelphia and she's not accepted into Curtis and what 140 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 1: is she going to do? She has to do something. 141 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: She has to make some money somehow, and she has 142 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: this incredible gift as a pianist. So in n she 143 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 1: starts playing at a cocktail piano bar in Atlantic City 144 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: and makes her stage name Nina Simone so that her 145 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 1: mom wouldn't find out, because keep in mind, this woman 146 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 1: is a Methodist preacher. She has no nonsense. They grew 147 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: up in the Bible Belt, and you know that hang 148 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: out in cocktail bars and playing standards is probably not 149 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 1: acceptable behavior. So after a couple of years of playing 150 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: in these cocktail bars, uh, and she's been asked to sing, 151 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: and so she's been singing and playing and honing her craft. 152 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:17,319 Speaker 1: She arrives in New York City in n gets her 153 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 1: first top first and only Top forty hit with I 154 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: Loves You Porgy and briefly Mary's white beatnik Don Ross. Yeah, 155 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:30,079 Speaker 1: and there was that point in the documentary where they 156 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 1: show her um performing I Loves You Porgy Um in 157 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: the what was it the Playboy Show? Like play by 158 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 1: Penthouse the Playboy Penthouse Show. So there's like old school 159 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:45,679 Speaker 1: black and white Hugh Hefner introducing this new sensation Nina 160 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: Simone and she's you know, playing at this piano surrounded 161 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 1: by these you know, wealthy white men with attractive white 162 00:09:55,400 --> 00:10:00,079 Speaker 1: women draped across them. Um, which was just such a 163 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:04,199 Speaker 1: such a snapshot of that time. And and you can 164 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:07,080 Speaker 1: see from the beginning to how I mean, even though 165 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: her voice becomes so iconic, she was kind of a 166 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: reluctant singer. I mean it was something that she kind 167 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: of had to do, almost singing for her supper. Otherwise 168 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:19,679 Speaker 1: she wouldn't have been able to perform starting out at 169 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 1: those earlier piano bars. But and like you said, she 170 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 1: finds success. She's in New York, her career is really 171 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: taking off, and she she has a singular drive for success, 172 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 1: but really more financial stability. I mean, Nina Sman wants 173 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 1: to become rich and she has since you know, divorced 174 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 1: Don Ross. They were married I think maybe less than 175 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 1: a year in nineteen sixty one, she ends up marrying 176 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 1: Andrew Stroud, who is a former New York City police 177 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:56,319 Speaker 1: officer who ends up becoming her manager. Yeah, because as 178 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: much as Ninasman wanted to make money herself and become rich, 179 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 1: Drought definitely saw dollar signs in his eyes. I take 180 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 1: it when he looked at her because obviously she's like 181 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 1: overwhelmingly talented, she's so good at what she does, and 182 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:15,839 Speaker 1: so he sees this as an opportunity to take her 183 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: her wild creativity and her amazing skill with the piano 184 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 1: and her amazing vocal skills and sort of point them 185 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: in the direction. And that direction is becoming basically what 186 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 1: we have the way we think of Aretha Franklin today. 187 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: That's what he sort of wanted for his wife to be, 188 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: that cash cow who was on top forty radio making 189 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: so much money. Yeah, I mean because also by this time, 190 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: Nina Simone had developed a reputation for being a very 191 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:48,680 Speaker 1: difficult performer. There were a number of clubs that did 192 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 1: not care to book her because, as we'll talk about more, um, 193 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: if you were not there to see Nina Simone do 194 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: Nina Simone, then she was not going to have it. 195 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 1: So Stroud steps in and is like, Okay, we're gonna 196 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: put together a plan. And the thing that he promises 197 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 1: her is Carnegie Hall, where all of those childhood dreams 198 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: of back and being respected as a classical musician would 199 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: finally come to fruition. And in fact, on April twelfth, 200 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 1: ninety three, she plays Carnegie Hall. Yeah, and and Stratt, 201 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: I think how to put up it was his entire 202 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 1: police pension right to sort of pay for the promotion, 203 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: to even draw attention to the fact that here's this 204 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 1: amazing performer at Carnegie Hall comes here. But in the 205 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:40,559 Speaker 1: same way that so many events in her life with 206 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: sort of parallel things going on in the civil rights movement. 207 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: Her performance was the same day that Martin Luther King 208 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:49,679 Speaker 1: was locked up in Birmingham. Yeah, and so you start 209 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 1: to see, like you said, like this, these parallel things happening, 210 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 1: and it sort of pits Nina Simone against herself. On 211 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:02,199 Speaker 1: the one hand, Um, as she once told Rogue Magazine, 212 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: all my life, I felt the terrible pressure of having 213 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 1: to survive. So she has this almost primal need to 214 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,200 Speaker 1: amass as much wealth as possible, and she is starting 215 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:17,440 Speaker 1: to do that through Stroud's management. But too, you have 216 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 1: this civil rights movement picking up, and her personal passion 217 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:27,559 Speaker 1: for that also really coming to life. Um And before 218 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: we get more into her as a civil rights activists, 219 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 1: let's talk a little bit about her voice and music, 220 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 1: because in a lot of ways it's undefinable. People call 221 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 1: her the high process of soul, and she defies genres 222 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. NPR music writer David brent 223 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: Johnson notes how she incorporated jazz, blues, folk, pop, show tunes, gospel, 224 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 1: and R and B into these performances and albums. Yeah, 225 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: it's sort of amazing to see the product of her 226 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:06,079 Speaker 1: creating out of necessity because here's this amazingly classically trained musician. 227 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: She's so good at what she does. She's a prodigy. 228 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: She's so just like it's just intuitive when she sits 229 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 1: down at the piano, but performing early on in her 230 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 1: career at those piano bars in those cocktail clubs and 231 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: having to, like you said, sing for her supper. You know, 232 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: people don't want to hear Bach at the bar and 233 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: so speak yourself, Caroline, I'm speaking for those jerks in 234 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 1: New York or Atlantic City or wherever. Um. Yeah, you know, 235 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 1: they didn't want to hear just like classical music played 236 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: for an entire set, Which that was another thing that 237 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: Nina Simon said that she had to get used to 238 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: the idea of a set. She's like, well, all right, 239 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 1: you want me to play play for forty five minutes, 240 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 1: that's fine. I've been playing for eight hours a day 241 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 1: for basically my whole life. So that's cool, um, But 242 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: being sort of in that position of being an entertainer 243 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 1: having to do this out of necessity to make money 244 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: and live and get by to try to she her dreams, 245 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: it meant she had to incorporate a lot of popular 246 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 1: stuff at the time, and so what came out of 247 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: that was some really amazing and interesting music. Yeah, so 248 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 1: you have recognizable tunes like I Put a Spell on 249 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 1: You that she reinvented and made so growlly and intense. 250 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: But then also you have this children's song that she 251 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 1: wrote in the wake of Lorraine Handsbury's death, called Young, 252 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: Gifted and Black, that she wanted to have this song 253 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: so that black children everywhere could feel proud of themselves. 254 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: And then of course she ended up writing protests songs 255 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: like Mississippi Goddamn, which we're going to talk about more 256 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 1: in just a minute. And then for instance, President Obama's 257 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: favorite Nina Simon song Centerman, which I was listening to 258 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: Caroline before we came into this podcast, and it is 259 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 1: going on loop in the back of my head, so 260 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: that I'm talking to Nina saman tune you cannot hear it, 261 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: and sting, it's got it's very up tempo. I'm glad 262 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: you're having a good time. You know I'm having a 263 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 1: great time too. Excellent. Um. But yeah, but the song 264 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 1: is a traditional spiritual about a sinner trying to hide 265 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: on judgment Day. So there we see, we've got great 266 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 1: examples of how she incorporates all of these different musical 267 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: traditions to really create her own place in music. And 268 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: she even did the song Don't let Me Be Misunderstood, 269 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: which was covered by the Animals, which I had to 270 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 1: have a misconception in my head corrected, Oh, did you 271 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 1: think it was slip flop? I thought it was the 272 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 1: other way around. I thought Nina s mom and got ignorant. 273 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 1: Caroline Irven, the podcaster, Uh, totally thought that that was 274 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: the animal song. But no, she performed this wonderful song 275 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 1: and the animals covered it. But it's interesting to read 276 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 1: too about her relationship with um people doing rock and 277 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: roll music, specifically in England and abroad. UM. She was 278 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: sort of fascinated by them, and she wrote her brother 279 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: basically saying, like all of these young white kids in 280 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 1: England and France and stuff are doing dances that you 281 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: and I used to do when we were kids, and 282 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:13,159 Speaker 1: they're doing this black music in their own way, and 283 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 1: it's so fascinating. And she was so enthralled not only 284 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: by that idea and found it very interesting, but also 285 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,919 Speaker 1: by the idea that she was just really loved people. 286 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:25,959 Speaker 1: When she went abroad, people just really loved her, and 287 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 1: she didn't feel the same sort of edges of that 288 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 1: racial confinement that she's so often butted up against in America. Yeah, 289 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 1: she was definitely more comfortable abroad than in what she 290 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 1: would later call the United Snakes of America. And I 291 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: mean her her blackness was very much a part of 292 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 1: her art as well. Um in nineteen sixty six column 293 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 1: in the Philadelphia Tribune, m her singing was described as 294 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: being quote to be brought into a brace of contact 295 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 1: with the black heart and to feel the power and 296 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: beauty which for centuries have beat there. And at the 297 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 1: same time that that depth and expression of her voice 298 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:13,160 Speaker 1: was sometimes criticized for being too masculine, because she does 299 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:18,120 Speaker 1: have such a low register depending on what she's singing. 300 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 1: And then on top of that, as we mentioned earlier, 301 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: she demanded the full attention of her audience. I mean, 302 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:30,159 Speaker 1: that's what she needed in order to perform, because she 303 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 1: wasn't just sitting there like playing little songs and ditties. 304 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 1: I mean it was You can tell if you watch 305 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:39,879 Speaker 1: her perform that it is a full mind, body, emotional 306 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:43,119 Speaker 1: performance for her. And so she was known to heckle 307 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: people or even leave the stage. If someone was talking, 308 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 1: she would stop and she would point. I mean, hope, oh, 309 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 1: Nina Simone. Thank goodness that she was not performing in 310 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 1: the era of cell phones and text messaging. I don't 311 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,199 Speaker 1: think she would get through a single concert. Yeah. The 312 00:18:58,240 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 1: closest thing to that I've seen is going to a 313 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: Nico Case concert and seeing her stop everything for somebody 314 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:08,159 Speaker 1: who has a cell phone out. Um. But yeah, you 315 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 1: can imagine that. Well, I would have loved it, like, yeah, 316 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:15,440 Speaker 1: you tell them to shut up. Um. Not everybody, including promoters, 317 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,239 Speaker 1: was as big a fan of that, and so that 318 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:22,640 Speaker 1: was another kind of stumbling block to maintaining a mainstream status. 319 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:26,160 Speaker 1: You know, her husband at this point, as we get 320 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 1: deeper and deeper into the sixties, her husband is getting 321 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: concerned with her interest in the civil rights movement, that 322 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: she's focusing too much on that rather than creating pop music. 323 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 1: He's concerned that she's too you know, moody and abrasive 324 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:45,639 Speaker 1: to the people around her in her career. Um, but 325 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 1: she does not let that stop her. She dove head 326 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 1: first into the civil rights movement. And we're going to 327 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 1: talk about Nina Simone civil rights activists. And when we 328 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 1: come right back from a quick break, So, as a 329 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: dark skinned black woman raised in the Jim Crow South, 330 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 1: Nina Simone continually experienced racism from the get go. I 331 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: mean we mentioned that incident with the recital when she 332 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:21,440 Speaker 1: was eleven or twelve years old, but she was constantly 333 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: told that her skin was too dark and her nose 334 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: was too broad, essentially that she looked too African. And 335 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,399 Speaker 1: she even once commented on how she never made the 336 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 1: cover of Jet or any magazines because they preferred wider 337 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:43,119 Speaker 1: looking cover stars like Diana Ross. So her appearance it 338 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 1: was something that was often at the forefront of her 339 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 1: mind as she thought about her place not only in 340 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 1: the music industry, but also in American society more broadly 341 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:01,919 Speaker 1: at this time of so much racial unrest. But I 342 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: mean that brings us back to when we talked earlier 343 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 1: about the biopic that's been made with with Zoe Saldana 344 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: and how if you're not aware of this backstory about 345 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,160 Speaker 1: how there was so much focus from outside and from 346 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,679 Speaker 1: within on her appearance, you might not understand why people 347 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 1: were up in arms about the casting choice, since Nina 348 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:27,439 Speaker 1: Simone herself said, they're picking people who look like darker 349 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,120 Speaker 1: skinned white people to appear on magazines rather than people 350 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: who look like me. Yeah. At one point, she writes 351 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:35,639 Speaker 1: in her diary, I can't be white, and I'm the 352 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 1: kind of colored girl who looks like everything white people 353 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,160 Speaker 1: despise or have been taught to despise. If I were 354 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:44,679 Speaker 1: a boy, it wouldn't matter so much. But I'm a 355 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: girl and in front of the public all the time, 356 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,199 Speaker 1: wide open for them to jeer and approve of or 357 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:54,679 Speaker 1: disapprove of. So she gets it. I mean, she's been 358 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 1: she's been exposed to basically appearance shaming of every kind 359 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:03,159 Speaker 1: her in entire life, and understands that women have it 360 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 1: way worse than guys do. Yeah. And and it's also 361 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 1: too in the early nineties sixties that she becomes more radicalized. 362 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,439 Speaker 1: She's powering around with leading black activists and scholars of 363 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 1: the day, including James Baldwin, Langston Hughes, Stokely Carmichael and others. 364 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:26,640 Speaker 1: And we mentioned Lorraine Handsbury earlier, who inspired the song 365 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 1: young Gifted in Black and Um. She was a playwright 366 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 1: who wrote A Raisin in the Sun, who was incredibly successful, 367 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: brilliant and became extremely close friends with Nina Simone and 368 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 1: really provided her not just an education in black identity, 369 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:51,400 Speaker 1: but also Black womanhood and feminism. Yeah, there's a great 370 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: quote where Simone says, it was always Marks Linen and 371 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 1: Revolution real girls talk, and I just love that that 372 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 1: she's finally getting this real relationship with someone who is 373 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,639 Speaker 1: believing in her own her being Nina sam believing in 374 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 1: her own independence and intelligence and giving her the credit 375 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 1: to be able to talk about the stuff and understand 376 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,360 Speaker 1: this stuff, whereas it seems like she had just been 377 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: surrounded by people, particularly her overbearing husband, who were just like, 378 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 1: I don't care, just stay on this career track, and 379 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 1: overbearing not only overbearing but also outright abusive, which we'll 380 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 1: talk about more in a little bit. Um. But in 381 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 1: terms of her relationship with Handsbury, she wrote in her 382 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:37,360 Speaker 1: memoir much later on uh quote, I started to think 383 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 1: about myself as a black person in a country run 384 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 1: by white people, and a woman in a world run 385 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: by men. And I mean that relationship with Handsbury was 386 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 1: so so formative for her and unfortunately ended so quickly 387 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 1: because Handsbury died of cancer in nine which was a 388 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:03,360 Speaker 1: tragic moment for Nina Simone. And so what really ended 389 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: up radicalizing Nina Simone in terms of the civil rights 390 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:12,399 Speaker 1: movement was a couple of events that happened really close together. 391 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: One was the murder of civil rights organizer Medgar Evers. 392 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:20,200 Speaker 1: The other was the bombing of Birmingham's Sixteenth Street Baptist Church, 393 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: which killed four young black girls who were leaving Bible class. 394 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 1: And so at this point Nina Simone is like, listen, 395 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 1: I cannot just sit here and just play music. I 396 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: I have to do something. Yeah, And the first thing 397 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,479 Speaker 1: she tried to do was make a gun. I mean, 398 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 1: she wanted she wanted to kill. She was enraged by it, 399 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,879 Speaker 1: and um, she tried to make a gun and was 400 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: quickly like, I can't make a gun. And I think 401 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,440 Speaker 1: also her husband Andrew was like, oh, Nina, please don't 402 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: try to make a gun. This is not the answer. 403 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: And so she ends up writing in an afternoon this 404 00:24:55,160 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 1: protest song Mississippi Goddamn and not to Risingly. Because of 405 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,160 Speaker 1: the title, the song was banned on some radio stations, 406 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:09,359 Speaker 1: and crates of records were sent back broken in protest um. 407 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,680 Speaker 1: And the chorus to the song says, Alabama's gotten me 408 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 1: sotapes that Tennessee made me lose my rest, and everybody 409 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: knows about Mississippi Goddamn. And if you listen to her 410 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,359 Speaker 1: and watch her playing this song, I mean she even 411 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: starts off saying how the name of this tune is 412 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,919 Speaker 1: Mississippi Goddamn, and I mean every word of it well, 413 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:37,440 Speaker 1: because in addition to that chorus, she also um imitates 414 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 1: white people in the community telling black people and black 415 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:45,200 Speaker 1: activists to take it slowly, go slow, and her backup 416 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: singers say too slow, um, which is a refrain that 417 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 1: you hear today in terms of any type of civil 418 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 1: rights organizing. There's always somebody in power saying, well, let's 419 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 1: slow down a little, let's let's not take this so fast. 420 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: And so it wasn't It definitely wasn't just the name 421 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,640 Speaker 1: of the song. It was the whole idea, the ideology 422 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 1: contained within it that just put a lot of people off, 423 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 1: to say the least yeah, I mean. And so after 424 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 1: this song comes out, she plays Carnegie Hall for a 425 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,880 Speaker 1: second time, and she sings Mississippi God Damn. And when 426 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: she gets to the part saying, oh, but this country 427 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 1: is full of lies and you're all going to die 428 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 1: and die like flies, she slows it down and looks 429 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 1: out into the predominantly white audience sitting there, And I mean, 430 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 1: she she like she said, she means what she is singing. Um. 431 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,480 Speaker 1: And we should note too that she had long supported 432 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:49,159 Speaker 1: the Student Non Violent Coordinating Committee, the Congress of Race Equality, 433 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,120 Speaker 1: and the n double a c p UM. But this 434 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 1: is when she really throws herself even more publicly and 435 00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: visibly into the civil rights movements. She's marching, she's playing 436 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,920 Speaker 1: benefit concerts, she's really using the stage as her platform 437 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 1: to speak truth to power and express her lack of 438 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: faith in that, like you said, that gradual push for 439 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 1: civil rights. Yeah. And during the march from selma Um, 440 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 1: she she performs Mississippi Goddamn on a stage that's propped 441 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,440 Speaker 1: up by coffins. And so that in itself is a 442 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 1: huge deal and a great turning point. But she meets 443 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 1: Martin Luther King and sticks out her hand and says, 444 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 1: I am not nonviolent, and every account of the event 445 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:40,879 Speaker 1: says that he gentally was like that's okay, that's that's fine, 446 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: that's totally cool. And it wasn't until then that she 447 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 1: relaxed and was like, well, you know, it's amazing to 448 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 1: meet you. But she just had to make sure that 449 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 1: he knew because he was he was more than just 450 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 1: a face of the movement, I mean to white people. 451 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: He was people were so happy about the whole non 452 00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:00,199 Speaker 1: violent thing, as you would understand, and and so she 453 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:01,920 Speaker 1: was just making it clear to this guy who's the 454 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 1: face of everything, uh, that that wasn't her jam no no, 455 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 1: I mean. And she certainly wasn't the only black musician 456 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 1: or black entertainer who was using their notoriety to help, 457 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 1: you know, promote the civil rights movement. But she had 458 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:29,199 Speaker 1: such a harder time simultaneously supporting a commercial career and 459 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:35,640 Speaker 1: her activism, um compared to say Aretha Franklin or Harry Belafonte, 460 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 1: who were were still able to continue selling records. But 461 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 1: Nina Simone just with this hit a wall with a 462 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: lot of it and her prominent activism, though contrast the 463 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: overwhelming male leadership of the civil rights movement. This is 464 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: something that we touched on a little bit, I think 465 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 1: in our um a couple of podcasts on women in 466 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: the civil rights movement, and also in our podcast on 467 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 1: women abolitionists. UM. But we found a paper by Ruth 468 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: Feldstein called I Don't Trust You Anymore Nina Simone, Culture 469 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 1: and Black activism in the nineteen sixties, and Feldstein writes, quote, 470 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: in the late nineteen sixties, assertions of black male pride 471 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 1: remained at the center of calls for black power that 472 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:26,320 Speaker 1: were implicitly and explicitly gendered male. And here you have 473 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: Nina Simone who is sort of just not paying any 474 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 1: attention to that structure whatsoever, and you know, doing her Yeah, 475 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 1: that's right. For instance, in nineteen sixty eight, in front 476 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: of an audience in Harlem, she read a poem by 477 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: David Nelson asking her audience, are you ready to do 478 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: what is necessary? And the poem and of course Nina 479 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 1: Simone encouraged the audience to break and burn white things, 480 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 1: build black things, kill if necessary. And so you can 481 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 1: just imagine that these are things that not a lot 482 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: of other people in the mainstream are saying out loud well, 483 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 1: and even just if you look at Mississippi Goddamn, which 484 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 1: had come out a few years prior to that. UM. 485 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 1: A comedian Dick Gregory was talking about this in the 486 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 1: Netflix documentary What Happened in Miss Simone UM, And he said, 487 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 1: if you look at all the suffering black folks went through, 488 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 1: not one black man would dare say Mississippi Goddamn. We 489 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 1: all wanted to say it, but she said it. And 490 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 1: so then by a lot of disillusionment had set in 491 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 1: and quote the days when revolution really had seemed possible, 492 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: We're gone forever, especially when you consider that a lot 493 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 1: of people around her, and a lot of people important 494 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,480 Speaker 1: to the movement, people like Martin Luther King and Handsbury 495 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 1: and Malcolm X and so many other integral figures were gone. Yeah, 496 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: they were either dead or imprisoned, and a lot of 497 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 1: public attention and protests. You by this point had shifted 498 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 1: away from civil rights and toward Vietnam, and Simone was 499 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 1: really devastated. I mean, obviously, at this point we have 500 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 1: a lot of domestic abuse that's been going on in 501 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: the background for a while, and uh, mental illness that 502 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: has been left untreated for a long time, which only 503 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 1: compounds this. But I mean she she really felt like 504 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 1: the cause was dead. Yeah, And so in ninety four 505 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 1: she leaves for Liberia, where she she writes a lot 506 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,719 Speaker 1: about how free she finally feels how amazing it is 507 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 1: to be there, um because for her, yeah, everything, everything 508 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 1: had been lost. And so her marriage has broken down 509 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 1: at this point, um, and she's no longer performing. Yeah, 510 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 1: and she, uh, she ends up just like saying screw 511 00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 1: it to the US. She's not paying taxes. I mean, 512 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: she kind of goes off the red and her daughter 513 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: Lisa comes to live with her for I think it's 514 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: two years in Liberia. But that was an incredibly tumultuous time. 515 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 1: Nina Simon was not healthy, um in a lot of 516 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 1: ways when she was living there. And this is when 517 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 1: we get to talking about Nina Simone the person behind 518 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 1: the persona because uh, you know, mental illness and domestic 519 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: violence were just major factors going on in the background 520 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 1: of her career ascent and then decent. Yeah, so during 521 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 1: this time, during this in the background, she's likely suffering 522 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 1: from bipolar disorder or possibly borderline personality disorder. She did 523 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 1: try psychoanalysis for a while, which her husband made her quit. 524 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 1: She also tried hypnosis, relied on drugs and sex and 525 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 1: drinking for a while, but she turned a lot to writing. 526 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 1: She has extensive diaries which are a fascinating look into 527 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 1: the inner workings, everything that's going on behind the scenes 528 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 1: during this time and a lot of what's going behind 529 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 1: the scenes in her nine year marriage with Andrew Stroud, 530 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 1: who you know, it has also taken over her career 531 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, um, and whom she blames 532 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: for her depression because she's constantly touring and constantly performing 533 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: to what she says, Well, you want to be rich, 534 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 1: you want to live in big houses, here you go, 535 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 1: You've got to work, um. But they had an incredibly 536 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 1: violent relationship. I mean he began beating her very soon 537 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 1: into I don't know if it had started before they 538 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 1: were married, but certainly once they were married, Um, it 539 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 1: quickly turned violent. And that was something that their daughter 540 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 1: witnessed as well. I mean, it was a hallmark of 541 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 1: their relationship. Yeah. And so you know, we talked about 542 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 1: how she left the United States for Liberia and during 543 00:33:56,400 --> 00:34:00,720 Speaker 1: those couple of years that her daughter was with her, Uh, 544 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 1: Simone went from being the abused to the abuser and 545 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,479 Speaker 1: beating her daughter and berating her for being light skin 546 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 1: and of course Lisa point pointed out to her mother, 547 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,280 Speaker 1: well you picked my father. I didn't. Yeah, and Andrew 548 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 1: Stroud is a light skinned black man. Um. So, after 549 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 1: Liberia though, she moved to Switzerland and then Paris, and 550 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 1: she is almost penniless by this point. She hasn't been touring, 551 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: hasn't been paying taxes, and friends finally intervened to get 552 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:38,880 Speaker 1: her mental help. Um And it's it's at this point 553 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 1: too in the documentary where you see to this physical 554 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:46,800 Speaker 1: transformation of Nina Simone, because I mean the mental health 555 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:51,839 Speaker 1: influence that can impact your you know, your outside appearance too. 556 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,239 Speaker 1: And she just hadn't been taking care of herself for 557 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 1: so long. Well, she hadn't been taking care of herself. 558 00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 1: But also once she did receive a diagnosis for bipolar 559 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,799 Speaker 1: disorder thanks to the friends who stepped in and we're like, 560 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 1: you can't live like this. You're living in filth, you're 561 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:08,160 Speaker 1: not taking care of yourself. We're going to take you 562 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 1: to the doctor. She got on medication, but the whole 563 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:14,360 Speaker 1: thing with the medication was that it's going to interfere 564 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,760 Speaker 1: with her motor skills, with the way that she looks 565 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 1: in the way that she carries herself, but more specifically 566 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 1: the way that she sings and plays the piano. The 567 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 1: doctor said, well, this is eventually going to take her 568 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,439 Speaker 1: skills away from her, and it's there's an interesting moment 569 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 1: in the documentary when her daughter Lisa is talking about 570 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,160 Speaker 1: this and she's she's talking about it in sort of 571 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,719 Speaker 1: a detached manner in terms of like, here's what happened, 572 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,839 Speaker 1: but she frames it in terms of like those guys 573 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:50,520 Speaker 1: in France, UM basically took away her. They interfered with her, 574 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 1: her craft, her skill, her gift. And that's I think 575 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 1: an interesting perspective coming from a child of abuse. Yeah, 576 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:00,959 Speaker 1: I mean, but at that point it was a life 577 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,359 Speaker 1: or death situation. Her friends were like, Okay, you will 578 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 1: have to perform so that you can live, or you're 579 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:12,839 Speaker 1: you have to remain untreated and you're going to die. 580 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 1: And she chose to perform and live. And so she 581 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,839 Speaker 1: her career slowly starts picking up a little bit. I mean, 582 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:24,920 Speaker 1: she starts playing jazz festivals and things like that. She 583 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 1: rarely returns to the United States um, and actually she 584 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,920 Speaker 1: has a mini comeback when Chanel picked up My Baby 585 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 1: just cares for me for their international TV campaign, so 586 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:44,800 Speaker 1: she gets some additional touring out of that. But um, 587 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,239 Speaker 1: I mean it just her life kind of winds down 588 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,239 Speaker 1: after that in a really tragic kind of way, which 589 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:56,759 Speaker 1: seems largely the product of mental illness left unchecked. And 590 00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,800 Speaker 1: then in two thousand two she was diagnosed with breast 591 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,680 Speaker 1: answer and she died the following year. Yeah, so this 592 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:09,160 Speaker 1: amazing talent, this amazing activist, this amazing voice gets snuffed out. 593 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:13,480 Speaker 1: But she left behind an incredible legacy for anyone willing 594 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,319 Speaker 1: to look into it. And that's why I mean this 595 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:20,560 Speaker 1: documentary was so fascinating to It was such a fascinating 596 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:25,240 Speaker 1: entry into learning more about her well and also helping 597 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,840 Speaker 1: revive her profile because for a long time she was 598 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:33,239 Speaker 1: largely written out of jazz history. I mean, she has 599 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:37,960 Speaker 1: in more recent years, as biographies have been published, um 600 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 1: and her catalogs revived. Um, she has gotten her do 601 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:47,480 Speaker 1: more for really establishing that sound of modern jazz. And 602 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:52,759 Speaker 1: it did also help when President Obama cited Sinnerman as 603 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 1: one of his songs always on his iPod playlist. That 604 00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:02,160 Speaker 1: ushered her into the twenty century mainstream. But I think 605 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 1: that these nuances of her biography and who Nina Simone 606 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:11,239 Speaker 1: really was as a fixture in the nineteen seventies in 607 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,920 Speaker 1: the midst of not so much the development of jazz, 608 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:18,120 Speaker 1: but more just the development of the United States and 609 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:21,040 Speaker 1: race relations. Um. I think a lot of people have been, 610 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:23,840 Speaker 1: at least myself, had been unaware of the role that 611 00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:27,399 Speaker 1: she played. Yeah, and and so it's fascinating to learn 612 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:31,440 Speaker 1: about that. But not everybody was super pleased with the 613 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,960 Speaker 1: documentary or the way that her life was framed, because 614 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,800 Speaker 1: you know, like you said at the top of the podcast, Kristen, 615 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:44,240 Speaker 1: there are plenty of male artists throughout history of various 616 00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,839 Speaker 1: types of art who have been considered geniuses. But they 617 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:52,439 Speaker 1: were they were like mad geniuses, but that madness was attractive. 618 00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:55,799 Speaker 1: It was something that was positive in their life as 619 00:38:55,800 --> 00:39:00,360 Speaker 1: a force. But um, when you talk about women, the 620 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,360 Speaker 1: conversation is a little bit different. And so Tanya Steele 621 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:07,240 Speaker 1: at Indie Wire basically says, can we not just accept 622 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,840 Speaker 1: and love and respect her as an artist full stop? 623 00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:15,720 Speaker 1: Do we have to qualify her genius by talking about 624 00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:18,120 Speaker 1: the fact that she had this mental illness and this 625 00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:22,240 Speaker 1: abusive background. Yeah. Well, and she also took a huge 626 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:29,360 Speaker 1: issue with um. Liz Garba's the documentarian, allowing interviews with 627 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:35,200 Speaker 1: Andrew Stroud, her horrendously abusive ex husband, to be included 628 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:41,880 Speaker 1: in the documentary as though he is helping shape her narrative, um, 629 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,640 Speaker 1: and saying that that's you know, that's just an injustice 630 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:49,600 Speaker 1: to her. Yeah, basically that she had such extensive diary 631 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:53,520 Speaker 1: entries and we have her daughter there, Um, can we 632 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:56,839 Speaker 1: not let Nina speak for herself? Um, which I mean 633 00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:00,800 Speaker 1: she certainly does in the documentary, but U deal definitely 634 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:04,080 Speaker 1: takes interest with Andrew Straud's presence. Yeah, because it's not 635 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:07,359 Speaker 1: only as as as Steel writes about, it's it's not 636 00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:11,360 Speaker 1: just how are we interpreting female genius, but it's black 637 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:17,359 Speaker 1: female genius. And she sees it as almost perpetuating stereotypes 638 00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:20,840 Speaker 1: of the angry black woman or the mad black woman 639 00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:25,560 Speaker 1: and says that it it's sort of delegitimizes her role 640 00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:31,759 Speaker 1: in culture more broadly and jazz history more specifically. But 641 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,120 Speaker 1: I mean, I would I would hope, as and I 642 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:38,040 Speaker 1: mean as a casual Netflix viewer sitting on my couch, 643 00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,880 Speaker 1: that a documentary that I watch about a public figure 644 00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:44,440 Speaker 1: would include an explanation of their life and how they 645 00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:48,440 Speaker 1: lived in and part of that sometimes is mental illness 646 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:52,839 Speaker 1: or is a background that is frightening to other people. Yeah, 647 00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:57,440 Speaker 1: I mean it's that question of whether knowing someone's demons 648 00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:01,600 Speaker 1: diminishes their legacy as a genius, because I think a 649 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:07,000 Speaker 1: lot of times too, it's it's so heartbreaking to find 650 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:14,799 Speaker 1: out that someone that you idolize has has faults, you know, 651 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,399 Speaker 1: to say the least. And but I think it's still 652 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:24,640 Speaker 1: possible to appreciate her and acknowledge her role and her 653 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,080 Speaker 1: you know, being a child brodigy all the way up 654 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:29,799 Speaker 1: to you know, the role that she played in the 655 00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:35,080 Speaker 1: Civil rights movement as um as controversial as it was, 656 00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:38,920 Speaker 1: you know, calling for white people to be killed and 657 00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:42,480 Speaker 1: white things to be burned down, um and then fleeing 658 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:46,279 Speaker 1: the country. Uh So, I'm really curious though, to hear 659 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:51,560 Speaker 1: from listeners on this. What are your thoughts on Nina Simone? 660 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:56,160 Speaker 1: Do you have a favorite song? Does her biography influence 661 00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,319 Speaker 1: how you listen to her music at all? We're really 662 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:01,920 Speaker 1: curious to hear all of your thoughts. Mom Stuff at 663 00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:04,560 Speaker 1: how Stuffwork dot com is our email address. You can 664 00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:08,560 Speaker 1: also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook. 665 00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:10,480 Speaker 1: And we've got a couple of messages to share with 666 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:19,120 Speaker 1: you right now, so I gotta let her here from 667 00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:23,600 Speaker 1: Olivia about our interview with Hilary Frank, host of the 668 00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:26,680 Speaker 1: podcast you need to listen to if you aren't already 669 00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:30,160 Speaker 1: The Longest Shortest Time Um, She writes, I wanted to 670 00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:33,240 Speaker 1: thank you for sharing such an amazing podcast and community. 671 00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:35,680 Speaker 1: I had no clue it was out there. I just 672 00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,040 Speaker 1: had my son four months ago and have never in 673 00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:41,480 Speaker 1: my life felt so deceived by women. Well I'm not 674 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,239 Speaker 1: the typical mom. I did have a super average pregnancy 675 00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:49,960 Speaker 1: and a very easy delivery, but my postpartum experience was horrible. 676 00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:52,879 Speaker 1: And she goes on to say how when she found 677 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:55,920 Speaker 1: out she was pregnant, she was thrilled. She had always 678 00:42:56,080 --> 00:43:00,840 Speaker 1: wanted kids, but you can't prepare yourself for something you 679 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:03,560 Speaker 1: don't know is coming. When my son came, I was 680 00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,120 Speaker 1: ready for the mack truck of love, but instead I 681 00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:08,839 Speaker 1: was hit with a mack truck of panic and anxiety. 682 00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:11,799 Speaker 1: I spent lots of time trying to nurse or bent 683 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,439 Speaker 1: over the changing table bawling my eyes out. I felt 684 00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:17,440 Speaker 1: a shame for not loving my son the moment he 685 00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:20,320 Speaker 1: was born. On top of that, I felt so alone 686 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,640 Speaker 1: and isolated because of this high anxiety level. My blood 687 00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:27,160 Speaker 1: pressure skyrocketed and my milk didn't come in, so my 688 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,640 Speaker 1: son cried constantly, which only fed into my feelings of 689 00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:33,480 Speaker 1: inadequacy as a mom. I felt like I had to 690 00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:36,239 Speaker 1: keep all of these struggles quiet, because you can't say 691 00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:38,640 Speaker 1: you feel anything but love for your child out loud. 692 00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:40,560 Speaker 1: I reached out to my O B g U I 693 00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:42,799 Speaker 1: N who delivered my son, and his answer was, you're 694 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:44,720 Speaker 1: not depressed, and that was the end of the story. 695 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:47,600 Speaker 1: I was determined to fight my way out of this, 696 00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:50,520 Speaker 1: so I changed my diet, started exercising, and went outside 697 00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:53,080 Speaker 1: every day. A few weeks before I was about to 698 00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:55,000 Speaker 1: go back to work, I was in such a dark place. 699 00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,000 Speaker 1: I started to push my boyfriend away, and I was 700 00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:59,920 Speaker 1: sure our relationship was coming to an end. I was 701 00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,520 Speaker 1: preparing myself mentally to be a single parent when he 702 00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:04,879 Speaker 1: said to me, I've been with you when your mother 703 00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:08,040 Speaker 1: was diagnosed with cancer, when your grandmother was diagnosed with cancer, 704 00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:10,880 Speaker 1: and through your parents divorced. I have never seen you 705 00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:13,919 Speaker 1: like this. I just want you to feel better. That's 706 00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:16,480 Speaker 1: when I took my help into my own hands. I 707 00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:19,759 Speaker 1: visited my primary care doctor who prescribed me medication, and 708 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:22,719 Speaker 1: I found a therapist. Now I've been back at work 709 00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:25,160 Speaker 1: for a month and I'm feeling more like myself. I 710 00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:27,880 Speaker 1: feel like a confident mom. Other than the struggle I 711 00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:30,560 Speaker 1: have with not being able to breastpeed my child, I 712 00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:35,719 Speaker 1: love him more than anything. That mactruck of love hit me. Finally, 713 00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:39,560 Speaker 1: I wish more women talked about this stuff. Even when 714 00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:41,360 Speaker 1: I reached out to my mom, she didn't know what 715 00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:43,839 Speaker 1: to do. She knew I wasn't depressed, but she had 716 00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,960 Speaker 1: no suggestions for me. I think as women were doing 717 00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:49,960 Speaker 1: a disservice to each other not sharing these stories. Those 718 00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:52,239 Speaker 1: first few months for me were such a struggle, and 719 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:54,960 Speaker 1: I wasn't prepared for that at all. I wish someone 720 00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:58,920 Speaker 1: would have told me. So I tell everyone I love 721 00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:01,440 Speaker 1: your podcast, and so does my son. We listen to 722 00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:03,880 Speaker 1: them on the way to daycare in the morning. So 723 00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:07,160 Speaker 1: thank you so much, Olivia for sharing that story that 724 00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:09,600 Speaker 1: I know is going to resonate with a lot of 725 00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,759 Speaker 1: our listeners as well. Well. I have a letter here 726 00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:16,040 Speaker 1: from a listener who wishes to remain anonymous, in response 727 00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:19,799 Speaker 1: to our episode on science fiction. She says, I'm someone 728 00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:22,200 Speaker 1: who attends World Con every year and has worked on 729 00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:25,960 Speaker 1: World con Convention committees. I was totally not expecting to 730 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:28,200 Speaker 1: hear you guys talking about this community that I'm so 731 00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:32,360 Speaker 1: intimately involved in. The current situation with the Hugos and 732 00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:36,440 Speaker 1: the puppies is so massively frustrating. The central argument from 733 00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:39,600 Speaker 1: the puppies is that there's this social justice warrior cabal 734 00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:42,760 Speaker 1: that has been manipulating the hugos and ensuring that women 735 00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:45,840 Speaker 1: and people of color and queer people when Hugos or 736 00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:49,360 Speaker 1: people who write about those groups, that this doesn't reflect 737 00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:52,359 Speaker 1: the will and interest of quote real sci fi fans, who, 738 00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:54,279 Speaker 1: so far as I can tell, are straight white men 739 00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:58,040 Speaker 1: who read real science fiction, which is basically fifties pulled 740 00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:01,600 Speaker 1: with ray guns and spaceships and anything help quote message fiction. 741 00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:04,920 Speaker 1: What they're basically saying is women and people of color 742 00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,640 Speaker 1: and queer people aren't capable of writing well enough to 743 00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,319 Speaker 1: win awards on their own, and they seem to think 744 00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:12,920 Speaker 1: the only reason the author would write about, say, people 745 00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:15,080 Speaker 1: of color, is because they want to make some sort 746 00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:18,160 Speaker 1: of political statement in order to cater to this group 747 00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:21,640 Speaker 1: of s jws, not because you know there are people 748 00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:24,000 Speaker 1: of color in the world, and so writing should reflect 749 00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:27,040 Speaker 1: that writing about a world solely inhabited by white people 750 00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:29,399 Speaker 1: isn't much more of a political statement than writing about 751 00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:31,319 Speaker 1: a diverse world that reflects the one we live in. 752 00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:34,640 Speaker 1: What we're seeing with the puppies is so similar to 753 00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:37,239 Speaker 1: what happening gamer Gate. A bunch of straight white men 754 00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:39,880 Speaker 1: assumed for a long time that science fiction is solely 755 00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:42,600 Speaker 1: about them and for them, and when women and people 756 00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:44,719 Speaker 1: of color and queer people speak up and say no, 757 00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:47,439 Speaker 1: this is actually for us too, and we've always been here, 758 00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:50,520 Speaker 1: they freak out and decide that it's a personal attack 759 00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:53,560 Speaker 1: on them that they must defend against. The good news 760 00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:56,240 Speaker 1: is the reason it's happening is because we're being loud 761 00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:59,040 Speaker 1: and refusing to put up with them anymore. So that's 762 00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:01,279 Speaker 1: optimistic and optimus. You have to end on. So thank 763 00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:03,920 Speaker 1: you for sending us that letter, and thanks to everyone 764 00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:06,680 Speaker 1: who's written into us. Mom stuff at how stuff works 765 00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:08,960 Speaker 1: dot com as our email address, and for links to 766 00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:10,880 Speaker 1: all of our social media as well as all of 767 00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:15,000 Speaker 1: our blogs, videos and podcasts, including this one with links 768 00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:17,840 Speaker 1: to learn more about Nina Simone and want shutt Netflix 769 00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,520 Speaker 1: dot community. If you are so inclined, head on over 770 00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:27,239 Speaker 1: to stuff Mom Never told you dot com for more 771 00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:29,920 Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics. Isn't how stuff 772 00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:38,520 Speaker 1: works dot com