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Speaker 1: We're at the beginning of a new golden age for democracy.

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Speaker 1: That is a premise for today's conversation. I'm Azimazar. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to the Exponentially podcast. Democracy is having a popularity crisis.

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Speaker 1: Recent research found that the young are more disaffected with

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Speaker 1: it than at any point in the last fifty years.

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Speaker 1: Polarization is a common problem. The basic questions of state,

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Speaker 1: economic growth and fairness seem out of reach, and new

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Speaker 1: challenges technology, climate change, and social division loom. What if

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Speaker 1: we could engage people in new ways and have them

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Speaker 1: deliberate over the toughest political issues. Could this put democracy

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Speaker 1: back on track. I've come to New York to discuss

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Speaker 1: these questions with an expert on the subject, Professor Elen Londermore.

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Speaker 1: Democracy is having quite a tough time right now, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: We've had trust in government in the US its lowest

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Speaker 1: ever in history. Around forty percent of Americans think that

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Speaker 1: the twenty twenty election was rigged, and of course there

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Speaker 1: was January the sick. These are all signs of quite

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Speaker 1: deep rooted problems, aren't they.

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Speaker 2: Yes, they are. It's all around the world. Actually, I

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Speaker 2: think that democracies are in trouble. Two or third of

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Speaker 2: Americans and French and German think that governments are corrupt.

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Speaker 3: This is really worrying. It's been going on for a while,

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Speaker 3: but I feel like the crisis is getting really acute.

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Speaker 1: And of course it's beyond the richer Western nations as well.

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Speaker 1: We see in India, the world's biggest democracy by population,

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Speaker 1: taking steps towards authoritarianism, and we look at the traditionally

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Speaker 1: the Middle East's most robust democracy Israel with people in

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Speaker 1: the streets.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's probably worse in those regions because you don't

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Speaker 2: have this sort of a long history and the social

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Speaker 2: welfare that helps the smooth over some of those difficulties.

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Speaker 2: So I think the crisis is very strong there as well.

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Speaker 2: And the one sort of light in the Middle East

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Speaker 2: was supposed to be Tunisia, but they are too. You

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Speaker 2: see a return to authorite ian practices and.

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Speaker 1: Set against this, we've got the new challenges of technology.

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Speaker 1: We know that over the past twenty years, technology has

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Speaker 1: created a small number of winners and lots of losers,

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Speaker 1: whether it's technology in the form of globalization, whether it's

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Speaker 1: technology in the form of the change in economies. And

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Speaker 1: now we've got artificial intelligence looming through the friendly face

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Speaker 1: of chat, GPT and others, threatening to flood our media

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Speaker 1: and social media environment with fake material, material that we

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Speaker 1: can't tell apart from things that are true, so that

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Speaker 1: again appears to be another force that we're going to

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Speaker 1: have to contend with. This is all looks to me

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Speaker 1: like it's quite bad news for me.

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Speaker 2: These technologies are as you forces of niature. As you said,

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Speaker 2: they are flooding our systems. But precisely it's a responsibility

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Speaker 2: of our socioeconomic political systems to channel those things and

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Speaker 2: to protect us from them, and I think that's what's

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Speaker 2: feeling the most actually at the moment now.

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Speaker 1: Of course, I'm actually quite optimistic about some of the

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Speaker 1: prospects for democracy, which is why I've asked for us

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Speaker 1: to have this conversation. One issue is that many people

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Speaker 1: think of democracy as putting a tick in a box

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Speaker 1: on a piece of paper every four or five or

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Speaker 1: sometimes seven years. But there are many other ways of

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Speaker 1: understanding what democracy is, what it might mean, and how

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Speaker 1: citizens might show their democratic intent.

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Speaker 4: To take us through some of those.

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Speaker 2: Options democracies in crisis, but I think it's also right

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Speaker 2: for a revolution, a change in the way we practice

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Speaker 2: it and we conceptualize it, and I think there are

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Speaker 2: a lot of signs that point to possibly brighter future

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Speaker 2: that involves citizens and tapdoor collective wisdom and respect in

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Speaker 2: their dignity as not just voters, but as full on

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Speaker 2: members of the community. We have a lot of things

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Speaker 2: to say and contribute. A lot of those democratic innovations

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Speaker 2: are taking place in Europe at the moment, but there

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Speaker 2: are signs everywhere. In fact, the OSID has documented close

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Speaker 2: to six hundred deliberative minipublics around the world, so it's

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Speaker 2: catching on.

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Speaker 1: Some of the new innovations bring back a sense of dignity, respect, capability,

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Speaker 1: capacity to the individual citizen, and they say, you actually

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Speaker 1: do have the faculties to participate in the decision making

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Speaker 1: that otherwise takes place in the smoke filled back room

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Speaker 1: of a party headquarters. These are things that you have

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Speaker 1: called mini publics. What is a mini public and what

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Speaker 1: are the different sort of subtypes of.

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Speaker 2: Mini public So a mini public is, as the name indicates,

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Speaker 2: a sort of a miniature version of the latter public

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Speaker 2: that you select on the business of random selections through

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Speaker 2: civic lotteries.

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Speaker 4: Say what you mean by that? A civic lottery, a.

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Speaker 2: Civic lottery where it's a phrase that's been coined in

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Speaker 2: my world to try and make it more visual and enticing.

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Speaker 4: So not the lottery that I lose every or use.

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Speaker 2: No exactly you're supposed to win in that scenario. So basically,

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Speaker 2: you receive an email or you get a letter in

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Speaker 2: the mail that says, oh, you've been selected to join

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Speaker 2: this citizens' jury or the citizens Assembly, or this deliberative

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Speaker 2: pool where you're going to meet other people just like you,

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Speaker 2: selected at random from the entire population to deliberate about

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Speaker 2: issues of interest. Could be healthcare, it could be immigration,

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Speaker 2: it could be end of life issues, it could be infrastructures,

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Speaker 2: the economic policy, anything. And then at the end, the

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Speaker 2: group writes up a set of recommendations that are supposed

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Speaker 2: to be transmitted to the government.

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Speaker 1: So we take a random selection of the population, the

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Speaker 1: taller and the less tall, the more sporty, the less sporty,

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Speaker 1: the more interested in politics, less interested in politics, the men,

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Speaker 1: the women, the young, the old, working, the not working,

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Speaker 1: this random selection that represents the nation, and we give

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Speaker 1: them a really difficult question. You talked about end of

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Speaker 1: life or healthcare that politicians haven't been able to solve,

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Speaker 1: and you put them in the room and you hope

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Speaker 1: that at the end of that process they come up

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Speaker 1: with recommendations that are better than would otherwise have come

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Speaker 1: through the traditional political process, right.

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Speaker 4: I mean it sounds quite ambitious, Dare I say it?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: I suppose it sounds crazy to some people, but actually

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Speaker 2: it works. So the Citizens assembli Is in Ireland in

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Speaker 2: twenty twelve and twenty sixteen they were respectively on marriage

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Speaker 2: equality and abortion, contentious issue in a Catholic country like

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Speaker 2: Ireland where they had actually made it a crime. So

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Speaker 2: they had a sample of ninety nine randomly selected citizens

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Speaker 2: who deliberated over the course of several months, and at

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Speaker 2: the end they recommended that abortion be decriminalized and that

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Speaker 2: went to Parliament, and Parliament, which had been incapable of

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Speaker 2: coming up with that kind of conclusion over decades, put

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Speaker 2: that proposal to referendum and two third of the Irish

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Speaker 2: population approved of that changed.

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Speaker 1: So it really unblocked a clog in the political system

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Speaker 1: that had sat there for decades. When I was reading

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Speaker 1: about the Irish Citizens Assembly on abortion, I was really

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Speaker 1: fascinated by one part of the research, and it suggested

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Speaker 1: that the discussions amongst these participants were much more dignified

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Speaker 1: and were better able to deal with difficult questions than

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Speaker 1: the nature of the discussion that had happened within parliamentary

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Speaker 1: committees within the Irish Parliament, that those would be filled

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Speaker 1: with showboating and inflammatory talk and would steer away from

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Speaker 1: harder questions, and there seemed to be some evidence that

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Speaker 1: was the case just looking at that in general.

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Speaker 4: Is that your experience?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's my experience, and I think the evidence shows

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Speaker 2: that's always the kids in Parliament's people grandstand and fight

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Speaker 2: and debate in this extremely adversarial manner. In Citizens Sam

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Speaker 2: Lizay actually deliberate the engage in respectful exchange of arguments

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Speaker 2: and views with people who disagree with them, but they

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Speaker 2: take them seriously and they listen carefully, And I think

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Speaker 2: the reason is structural. Like people who come in into

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Speaker 2: Parliament come in with a mandate or at least some

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Speaker 2: pre commitments and an allegiance to a party, so they

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Speaker 2: come with partisanship as a defining attitude, whereas in citizens

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Speaker 2: assemblies you have people who come in as who they are,

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Speaker 2: but no one knows whether they are Republican or Democrat.

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Speaker 2: Or pro life or pro choice. You don't know anything.

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Speaker 2: You just know that they are your peers. So it

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Speaker 2: fosters much more open mindedness and is much more conducive

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Speaker 2: to listening to each other.

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Speaker 1: And I'm quite curious about the individual's journey in that process.

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Speaker 4: How do they feel.

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Speaker 2: They come in shy and skeptical and vaguely distrustful of

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Speaker 2: the process, and they get to know each other, and

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Speaker 2: then by the third meeting usually it's like dating. I

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Speaker 2: always compare it to that, because there's a sort of

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Speaker 2: moment where they click and then they jail and the

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Speaker 2: form a collective. It's no longer just an aggregation of people.

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Speaker 2: It's truly a collective united by a common purpose, which

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Speaker 2: is very rare in our experience as citizens when we vote,

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Speaker 2: we don't have that. We have very sort of abstract

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Speaker 2: this idea of a collective. So they go through that,

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Speaker 2: and then by the end they usually say it's been

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Speaker 2: the most transformative experience of my life.

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Speaker 1: Now these citizens assemblies have a new fan in your

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Speaker 1: home country, which is France. I understand that President Macon

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Speaker 1: has and rather fallen for them.

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Speaker 3: Yes, so I think the udo vests nudged him a little.

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Speaker 1: So these are the populist popular protests for the last

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Speaker 1: four or five years in France over initially cost of

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Speaker 1: living issues and now other issues of political representation and

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Speaker 1: so on.

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Speaker 2: Social movements basically triggered this deliberative experiment in the country

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Speaker 2: because in November twenty eighteen got really bad and so

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Speaker 2: Macron said, okay, let's talk to each other. So we

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Speaker 2: launched this great national debate and I was followed by

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Speaker 2: the first sort of nationwide city since assembly in my

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Speaker 2: country of France, with a convention on climate justice. And

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Speaker 2: because it was sufficiently successful. It wasn't perfect, but it

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Speaker 2: was sufficiently successful, he convened another one, the one on

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Speaker 2: end of life issues that I got to co govern.

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Speaker 2: I was on the governance committee of that one. And

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Speaker 2: this one was I dare say, more successful than the

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Speaker 2: first one, I think, because for many reasons, we were

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Speaker 2: the second to test this process. We had a slightly

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Speaker 2: easier topic I believe, narrower, less technical in many.

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Speaker 1: Respects, but emotionally very very important and touching on all

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Speaker 1: sorts of issues connecting to religion, culture, morality. Because it

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Speaker 1: was end of life, palliative care, questions of even of euthanasia.

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Speaker 1: I mean, these are difficult questions.

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Speaker 2: So you're right, they were very difficult, and particularly emotionally,

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Speaker 2: and so we planned for that actually by having a

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Speaker 2: psychologists onside from day one, and they were very useful

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Speaker 2: and absolutely needed the whole time. But what I meant

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Speaker 2: by it was slightly easier than climate justice, I think

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Speaker 2: it was because the country was ready to move in

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Speaker 2: the direction. I think over ninety percent of French people

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Speaker 2: are in favor of liberalizing the law and favoring some

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Speaker 2: kind of assisted suicide. And also the economic dimension or

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Speaker 2: costs involved in reforming the system I think are slightly

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Speaker 2: less daunting than on climate. So I think we managed

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Speaker 2: to get the group to work together and make proposals.

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Speaker 2: But my biggest source of pride, if you want, is

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Speaker 2: that we really maintain the trust of the citizens throughout

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Speaker 2: even though we made mistakes as a government of this Assembly.

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Speaker 2: We based it wrong at times, we organized votes that

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Speaker 2: quite didn't quite get to the right question. But somehow,

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Speaker 2: because we apologize and we are very transparent and as

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Speaker 2: accountable as we could be, the citizens maintain their trust

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Speaker 2: in us, and so that really helped the process succeed.

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Speaker 1: And briefly what was the final recommendation and how will

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Speaker 1: it get turned into a law.

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Speaker 2: So the final recommendation is one, invests massively in palliative

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Speaker 2: care and make it so that it's a universal right

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Speaker 2: more or less and universally accessible. Second, liberalize the law

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Speaker 2: to allow for forms of assisted dying and forms of

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Speaker 2: euthenesia under conditions including of course consent right.

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Speaker 1: A very very difficult, controversial issue.

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Speaker 4: So let's think about where we've got to.

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Speaker 1: We know that democracy is facing this tsunami of threats,

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Speaker 1: but we've also identified that there are ways citizens assemblies

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Speaker 1: amongst them, of getting citizens to look at difficult, contentious

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Speaker 1: political issues coming forward with a consensus, which then traditional

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Speaker 1: political systems can take forward and turn into law. But

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Speaker 1: I'm quite curious about why citizens assemblies actually work. What

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Speaker 1: is it about them that taps into this collective intelligence

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Speaker 1: and this desire to find a consensus.

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Speaker 2: One I think is because they bring together this diverse

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Speaker 2: group of people that, in the Esque scenario is actually

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Speaker 2: descriptively representative of the larger population. You maximize what I

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Speaker 2: call the cognitive diversity of the group. You bring poor people,

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Speaker 2: you bring minorities, you bring a lot more women, you

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Speaker 2: bring a lot more young people and these perspectives are

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Speaker 2: currently lacking in our parliament. So when you bring that,

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Speaker 2: the richness of perspective and information that you get is

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Speaker 2: much higher.

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Speaker 3: Then.

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Speaker 2: The other thing is that the process is conducive to

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Speaker 2: deliberation rather than debate or sophistry or antagonism and rhetoric.

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Speaker 2: It's really focused on Okay, we're in it together, we

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Speaker 2: have a problem to solve.

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Speaker 3: How do we solve it? Or you do, of course

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Speaker 3: you do.

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Speaker 2: But the differences that they're not rewarded for the behavior

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Speaker 2: the way the audition is the way politicians are rewarded

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Speaker 2: for that. On the contrary, it's very interesting because you

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Speaker 2: do have all the human types, so you have the

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Speaker 2: politicians type in those groups, but it doesn't work. You

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Speaker 2: do have also natural leaders that are actually very much respected.

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Speaker 3: They have an influence. The voice really carries a lot

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Speaker 3: of weight.

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Speaker 2: They do a lot of the work in the small groups,

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Speaker 2: and they're listened to by the other citizens. But that

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Speaker 2: doesn't mean that they're above the others. The only thing

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Speaker 2: that gives you more weight is if you have a

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Speaker 2: better argument or a better information.

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Speaker 1: There are people who are taking you through this process

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Speaker 1: it's not like the novella Lord of the Flies. Right,

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Speaker 1: we're all just left on the island to figure our out,

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Speaker 1: You're right.

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Speaker 2: So a third element is definitely the curation that goes

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Speaker 2: into this. Right, so you have expert facilitators at the

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Speaker 2: small group level that make sure that all voices are heard,

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Speaker 2: that there are not some dominant voices that crush the others,

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Speaker 2: that if there's a conflict, it's resolved peacefully.

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Speaker 1: It is quite interesting because even if this sounds alien,

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Speaker 1: of course, most of these countries have already established the

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Speaker 1: principle that citizens drawn roundomly can get together in a

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Speaker 1: process and make judgment, because that's what a criminal jury

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Speaker 1: trial is. So we already have some sort of precedent

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Speaker 1: of this process.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, and so this any publics are just taking the

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Speaker 2: concept and putting it on steroids.

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Speaker 3: It's much bigger.

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Speaker 2: For example, citizens a sound These range between one hundred

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Speaker 2: and three hundred and fifty people. They last much longer,

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Speaker 2: it can be month. They also are solving issues not

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Speaker 2: on the basis of unanimity but plurality or majogy role,

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Speaker 2: and they cover a lot more issues than just the

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Speaker 2: fit of one person.

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Speaker 1: Now, one area that I am really interested in right now,

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Speaker 1: moving at exponential rates is artificial intelligence, and a major

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Speaker 1: question is how do we govern artificial intelligence? How do

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Speaker 1: we get it to align to human values. Part of

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Speaker 1: the problem is we don't know what those values are,

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Speaker 1: and we don't know what people want from this technology.

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Speaker 1: How could we use many publics to look at that question?

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Speaker 3: That's a really good question.

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Speaker 2: So I think that in the ideal we'd have a

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Speaker 2: global deliberative process involving all of humanity at different levels,

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Speaker 2: of different qualities.

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Speaker 1: But we don't organize any sort of formal enforced laws globally.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there are some global agreements, but countries break

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Speaker 1: them really nearly. We're organized by nation states fundamentally. But

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Speaker 1: you're saying for this it should be global.

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Speaker 2: Well, given the exponential dimension, I feel like there's an

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Speaker 2: urgency in finally setting up the global infrastructures we need.

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Speaker 2: So why not see the question of the I as

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Speaker 2: like the impulsion.

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Speaker 3: To do that?

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Speaker 1: Where would the political legitimacy for that come from. In

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Speaker 1: the case of the right to life citizens Assembly in France,

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Speaker 1: the legitimacy came from the existing legitimate political authorities who

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Speaker 1: said we want this process to run. Who could give

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Speaker 1: a Global Citizens Assembly on AI any legitimacy.

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Speaker 2: I believe we'd have to start from the existing institution,

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Speaker 2: So I guess the UN it's not ideal, right, So

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Speaker 2: I think we have to work.

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Speaker 3: With existing institutions at least.

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Speaker 2: That's my experience with the successful Citizens Assembly is at

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Speaker 2: the national level they always start from a cooperation with

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Speaker 2: existing institution.

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Speaker 3: So I think we have just done there.

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Speaker 1: So one version is a sort of an artificial intelligence

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Speaker 1: version of the cop process that was run by the UN.

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Speaker 1: But could you do something else? Could you achieve that

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Speaker 1: legitimacy through a multilateral process where you just get enough

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Speaker 1: of the players to get together a bit like a snowball,

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Speaker 1: So you get the US and France and the UK

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Speaker 1: and perhaps Brazil and Nigeria and India, and then you've

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Speaker 1: got enough momentum perhaps to drag a lot.

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Speaker 3: Of Right, we knew what's going to happen.

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Speaker 2: All these countries are going to pick up best on

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Speaker 2: Briters and it's going to be yet another doubles of

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Speaker 2: the origin and beautiful making.

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Speaker 3: Decisions for the rest of us.

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Speaker 2: And I think that finally we have a chance to

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Speaker 2: do something a little bit different. We have the technologies,

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Speaker 2: the civic technologies to involve an Afghan shepherd, a Brazilian

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Speaker 2: seam stress, a Chinese software developer to talk about issues

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Speaker 2: that will affect all of us. I think it's time

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Speaker 2: to be a bit more ambitious, more democratic, and more visionary.

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Speaker 3: I think AI could help. For example, I was talking

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Speaker 3: about the rule of those facilitators.

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Speaker 1: Right, the facilitator who build.

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Speaker 2: They're kind yeah, they're kind of indispensable because it's very

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Speaker 2: hard to synth this as the input right there, so

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Speaker 2: in the output.

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Speaker 3: So could I help with that? I believe that.

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Speaker 2: I think it would bring down costs, it would perhaps DEBAI.

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Speaker 2: It's actually a lot of what's happening, and as long

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Speaker 2: as humans are still in control at the end and throughout,

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Speaker 2: I think it would allow us to scale the citizens

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Speaker 2: deliberation that we are able to conduct at a national

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Speaker 2: level to the global level.

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Speaker 1: The bit when you surprised me was when you said, well,

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Speaker 1: we could actually use these technologies to ensure global participation.

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Speaker 1: So that's a new methodology in a way that you're

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Speaker 1: introducing this. So how would you bring the Afghan shepherd in?

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Speaker 1: Would it be through a smartphone or would it be

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Speaker 1: flying him or her to whichever city this is actually

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Speaker 1: going to take place in.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So if we're going to go why not crazy

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Speaker 2: with this thought experiment, I would bring a thousand of

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Speaker 2: them so at random from different locations in the world.

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Speaker 2: You bring them into some kind of like really symbolic

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Speaker 2: place for a sufficient amount of time that they can

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Speaker 2: get to know each other, get to understand the process,

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Speaker 2: and listen to experts, because of course experts in all

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Speaker 2: these processes are crucial, but they have to be always

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Speaker 2: use that phrase, they have to.

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Speaker 3: Be on tap and not on top.

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Speaker 2: They can't dictate the solution and the answer should come

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Speaker 2: from the citizens themselves. And I guarantee you this will work.

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Speaker 2: They will produce some kind of set of recommendations, and

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Speaker 2: you can replicate that at every level, at the national level,

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Speaker 2: at the regional level, at the city level.

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Speaker 3: But at least you've.

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Speaker 2: Heard the voice of global citizens on this issue that's

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Speaker 2: going to affect all of us.

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Speaker 1: The output actually seems to me, for the first time,

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Speaker 1: we would have a global consensus on an issue that

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Speaker 1: is not a set of backroom deals exactly papered over

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Speaker 1: to look like a consensus, but actually is a real consensus.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it won't be the product a series of compromises

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Speaker 2: and negotiations. It will be the product of a deliberation.

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Speaker 2: So the way I see it is that when you

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Speaker 2: start doing them locally and you get the output, that

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Speaker 2: will form the material that this Global Assembly can think about,

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Speaker 2: rather than go straight to the global.

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Speaker 1: But these things take time to set up. But the

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Speaker 1: thing that struck me was that Macon's you told me

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Speaker 1: yesterday got the Grand Debates going not in two years.

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Speaker 4: But in a co two months. Yeah, right, in two months.

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Speaker 1: And we got COVID vaccines not in eleven years, but

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Speaker 1: in sixteen months. So we've got precedent of getting these

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Speaker 1: things up and running very very quickly.

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Speaker 3: Exactly.

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Speaker 2: So, in addition to going to the Moon, let's focus

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Speaker 2: on doing something really bold and ambitious about democracy.

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Speaker 1: So let me recap where we've got to. We recognize

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Speaker 1: now that citizens Assemblies could be a very powerful tool

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Speaker 1: to revive and refresh democratic engagement and tackle some of

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Speaker 1: these issues lezation and lack of trust. We've seen, and

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Speaker 1: we've got an increasing evidence base that they work across

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Speaker 1: the world.

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Speaker 4: What stands in the way.

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Speaker 1: Of them becoming part of the political rhythm of life,

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Speaker 1: the way that a congressional committee is just nothing out

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Speaker 1: of the ordinary.

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Speaker 4: They happen all the time.

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Speaker 2: What's stopping us from doing all this, I think is

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Speaker 2: spathly the usual conflict of interest coming from people who

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Speaker 2: benefit from the status quo, right, But it's also a

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Speaker 2: lack of imagination and attachment to all the ideas about legitimacy, accountability.

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Speaker 2: What democracy looks like an unwillingness to try at new.

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Speaker 1: Things, the one issue being, of course, that if you're

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Speaker 1: a politician, a process like this looks like you're giving

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Speaker 1: up power.

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Speaker 3: It is giving up power.

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Speaker 2: In fact, i'll tell you what happened on the first

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Speaker 2: day of the Convention on end of life. The President

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Speaker 2: of the National Assembly came to greet this convention.

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Speaker 1: And the President of the National Assembly is that the

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Speaker 1: equivalent of the Senate leader.

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Speaker 2: What it's more the House of Representatives there But anyway,

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Speaker 2: but they had felt sidelined by the first convention because

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Speaker 2: they felt like Macme was just trying to connect with

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Speaker 2: citizens without going through Parliament. So this time around she

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Speaker 2: came to address the new convention and it was a

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Speaker 2: polite thing to do, and we appreciated it. But then

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Speaker 2: the thing she said was you are not representative of

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Speaker 2: the people. You have a legitimacy, but not that to decide,

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Speaker 2: and she was very angry. She said something like, it's

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Speaker 2: out of the question that randomly selected people replace elected officials, But.

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Speaker 3: In fact I think that's what we should do.

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Speaker 2: We should not necessarily replace them, but there should be

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Speaker 2: a transfer of meaningful power from elected assemblies which have

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Speaker 2: lost a lot of legitimacy, which are not doing their work,

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Speaker 2: to those citizens who can actually do the job better

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Speaker 2: if it takes away some of their power. And it

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Speaker 2: turns out that elected officials remain quite good at certain things, fine,

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Speaker 2: but there needs to be a registribution of power, and

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Speaker 2: a lot of people are not comfortable with that. Tooth

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Speaker 2: and nail to keep things as they are or do

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Speaker 2: what you know, it's called a participation washing when you

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Speaker 2: pretend to do these things but you don't empower them,

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Speaker 2: so they are just purely ornamental.

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Speaker 4: So revolutions aside.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like we have to figure out how to

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Speaker 1: get over this impediment of the elites not wanting to

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Speaker 1: give up power. But when you also look at major

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00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:26,440
Speaker 1: political change, it often requires a charismatic leader. We can

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Speaker 1: think of Ronald Reagan or Margaret Thatcher or Tony Blair

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00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:35,080
Speaker 1: in the UK. Does a movement like this need a

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00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:39,480
Speaker 1: charismatic political leader who can stand up and articulate it?

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00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:40,760
Speaker 3: Oh God, I hope not.

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00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:43,480
Speaker 2: I think there are other examples, like Black Lives Matter

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Speaker 2: the Yellow Vests.

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Speaker 3: There are no charismatic leaders.

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Speaker 2: It's all movements of the people with an express desire

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Speaker 2: to be as equal it. You know, in the Black

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Speaker 2: Lives Matter movement, leader fool rather than having a cult

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00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:59,240
Speaker 2: figure showing the way. I think this focus on individuals

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Speaker 2: as saviors is not good.

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Speaker 1: I think that individuals as saviors is a malaise that

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Speaker 1: actually exists in the technology industry as well.

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Speaker 3: Oh absolutely.

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00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 1: We look at these founders as entrepreneurs, as saviors, and

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00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:21,399
Speaker 1: we ignore the role of process and participation and engagement

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Speaker 1: of very large numbers of people.

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Speaker 4: They're sort of twins, aren't they.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: If you ask engineers, I think they know who made

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00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,159
Speaker 2: the iPad, and it's not the CEO.

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00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 3: The CU is governing this thing.

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Speaker 2: But I think the culture of the leaders, it comes

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00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 2: from our bias towards individuals. Also the training we give

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00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 2: our elites whether it's in schools that I went to,

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00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 2: where it's all about succeeding as an individual achievement as

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00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 2: opposed to a group achievement. It comes from the business

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00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 2: schools where we inculcate in students worship of the industry captain.

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Speaker 3: All of that has to change. I think our education

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00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 3: system is inculcating the wrong value.

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Speaker 1: It seems like another thing that we could do to

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00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:08,360
Speaker 1: make this system more prevalent is to make these assemblies permanent.

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00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 1: Some of the ones we've talked about in our discussion

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00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,439
Speaker 1: are one offs. They may run for several weeks or months,

481
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 1: but they look at single issues and then they disband.

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Speaker 1: And I know that in some places, the city of

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00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:23,640
Speaker 1: Brussels in Belgium have established permanent assemblies to look at

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00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,199
Speaker 1: key issues. I think that could be one way of

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00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,399
Speaker 1: normalizing that, perhaps having even a permanent citizens assembly on

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Speaker 1: artificial intelligence, for example.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I think that's probably what we should head for next.

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Speaker 2: In fact, I always thought that the main purpose of

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00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 2: a randomly sticted assembly of a large size should be

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00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,439
Speaker 2: to be a general agenda center. Just what was the

491
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,879
Speaker 2: keys in ancient Ethens? In mentionine Athens, we always focus on

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00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,679
Speaker 2: the people's assembly where people were shouting and voting, but

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00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,919
Speaker 2: the agenda setter was actually a body of five hundred

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00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 2: randomly slicted citizens.

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00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 1: That's a lot of citizens, considering we only need a

496
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:03,439
Speaker 1: thousand for seven and a half billion, eight billion population Earth.

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00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 1: To look at Ai and Athens needed five hundred out

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00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:08,919
Speaker 1: of yes, a few tens of thousands of people.

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00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:11,439
Speaker 3: They didn't have probability theory. I don't know how they

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00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,879
Speaker 3: figured out that number. But I'm also in awe of

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00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 3: how they run that thing.

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00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,120
Speaker 2: Because, as I said, I was part of a group

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00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 2: that tried to govern an assembly of one hundred and

504
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 2: eighty six and it was so difficult. So how do

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00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 2: you do it at the scale of five hundred or

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00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,120
Speaker 2: one thousand. We still have to figure out a number

507
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,359
Speaker 2: of things before we can do this perfectly right, But

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00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:29,439
Speaker 2: I think it can be done.

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00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:31,879
Speaker 4: I'm an early signals person. I'm a systems person.

510
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,160
Speaker 1: The things I look at are at the earliest part

511
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,360
Speaker 1: of their exponential takeoff rate. So I look at these

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00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:41,159
Speaker 1: processes and I think, actually, there is possibly something that

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00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:45,400
Speaker 1: is going on here. There is some momentum to help

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00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 1: us rethink what this engagement looks like. If this continued,

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00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 1: how does that actually reshape with the sort of the

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00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 1: systems that we have within our countries.

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Speaker 2: I see it more as diffusing throughout society at large.

518
00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 2: So you would have, yes, at the national level, the

519
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,920
Speaker 2: more visible institution that are staffed with randomly selective citizens,

520
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 2: hopefully on a permanent businis. But more importantly, I think

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00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 2: than this focus on the big sort of assemblies, I

522
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 2: think at every level, in schools, in hospitals, in firms,

523
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 2: you could have randomly selictive bodies of citizens integrated into

524
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,879
Speaker 2: the decision making process. So to bring in this perspective

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00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 2: of the lived in experience ordinary wisdom, and I think

526
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 2: it would sort of diffuse through our society and mix

527
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 2: for much healthier society in general.

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00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 1: The premise for our conversation today is that we will

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00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 1: in a few years look back at this time as

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00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 1: a turning point for democracy, not its death, but the

531
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 1: start of a new golden age.

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00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:46,680
Speaker 4: Do you think that's possible.

533
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:47,640
Speaker 3: I think that's possible.

534
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 2: I think there's nothing guaranteed, and we have to work

535
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 2: really hard to make it happen, but I think it's

536
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:53,679
Speaker 2: definitely possible.

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00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 4: Hello, Lonsmore, thank you so much for your time.

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00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.

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00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 1: Reflecting on my conversation with Ellen, I'm struck by the

540
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:10,119
Speaker 1: increasing amount of evidence there is that deliberative systems work.

541
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 1: They reduce polarization, they find commonalities between groups, and they

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00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 1: come up with creative solutions to difficult political questions. But

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00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:24,400
Speaker 1: they do threaten many existing players within our politics, grandstanding

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00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 1: politicians and the parties that support them. Will those groups

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00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 1: readily give up their power? I'm not so sure. But

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00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:36,880
Speaker 1: as exercises in deliberative democracy have more success, I think

547
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 1: they'll gain more credibility and little by little they might

548
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 1: unclog our jammed politics. Thanks for listening to the Exponentially podcast.

549
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 1: If you enjoy the show, please leave a review or rating.

550
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 1: It really does help others find us. The Exponentially podcast

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00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 1: is presented by me azeem As are the sounders. Signer

552
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 1: is Will Horrocks. The research was led by Chloe Ippah

553
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 1: and music composed by Emily Green and John Zarcone. The

554
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 1: show is produced by Frederick Cassella, Maria Garrilov and me Azimazar.

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00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 1: Special thanks to Sage Bauman, Jeff Grocott and Magnus Henrikson.

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00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 1: The executive producers are Andrew Barden, Adam Kamiski, and Kyle Kramer.

557
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 1: David Ravella is the managing editor. Exponentially was created by

558
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 1: Frederick Cassella and is an Eat the Pie I plus

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00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 1: one limited production in association with Bloomberg LC