1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 1: today's best minds. We're on vacation, but that doesn't mean 4 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: we don't have a great show for you today. Wesleyan 5 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:16,600 Speaker 1: University's own Michael Roth stops by to talk about how 6 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:20,159 Speaker 1: universities can push back against Donald Trump. But first we 7 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: have Harvard professor and How Democracies Die author Steven Levitsky 8 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: here to talk about why he's a little more optimistic 9 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 1: about Trump failing after a year into his presidency. 10 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:34,840 Speaker 2: Welcome back to Fast Politics. 11 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:36,480 Speaker 3: Steven, thanks for having me back. 12 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 2: Before we were. 13 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 1: Talking and you were talking about how you're more optimistic 14 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: now than you were say in March. I think we 15 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:44,840 Speaker 1: were all pretty freaked out by the Trump two point zero. 16 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:47,240 Speaker 2: Talk to me about why you're more optimistic now. 17 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 3: Well, first of all, it's Trump has done a tremendous 18 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 3: amount of damage, and we were seeing the beginning of 19 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 3: it March and that continued almost done, abated and unchecked 20 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 3: for nine months. And it's done damage to our society, 21 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 3: to our culture, to our institutions, to the US State, 22 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 3: to the world, particularly the US standing in them. So 23 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 3: twenty twenty five was a terrible year. It was worse 24 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:12,839 Speaker 3: than I anticipated, and I've been a pessimist for years. 25 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:17,279 Speaker 3: What makes me less pessimistic is the fact that Trump 26 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 3: is weakening politically. For he began to he has suffered defeats, 27 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:26,119 Speaker 3: some defeats in the courts, He's suffered some defeats at 28 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 3: the ballot box. Public opinion is gradually but importantly shifting 29 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:35,039 Speaker 3: against him, and he's suffered defeats within the Republican Party, 30 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 3: which is a bad side for him. And the principal 31 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 3: reason why Trump was able to do as much damage 32 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 3: as he did in twenty twenty five is he had 33 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 3: ironclad Republican support. He could not have done even a 34 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 3: fraction of what he did had he not had ironclad 35 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 3: support in the Republican Party. Basically, the willingness of the 36 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 3: entire Republican Party leadership to abdicate their oversight role in 37 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 3: Congress and to just let him, in many cases, just 38 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 3: flat outbreak the law or violent the constitution. There are 39 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 3: signs that that is beginning to change, but in particular, 40 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 3: it's clear that he's overreached, he's made mistakes, and that 41 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,360 Speaker 3: he is beginning to really count in terms of public opinion. 42 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 3: And one thing we know about autocrats is they do 43 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 3: a lot more damage when they have majority support than 44 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 3: when they don't. And so somebody like Bukele and Alsalvador 45 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 3: with eighty eighty five percent support can do much much 46 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 3: more damage than a president who's at forty one or 47 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,679 Speaker 3: thirty nine. And Trump is entering a territory where he 48 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 3: could still do a lot of damage, but his ability 49 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 3: to impose his will without contestation political contestation, media contestation, 50 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:42,639 Speaker 3: societal contestation that's being reduced. 51 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 1: Right after Trump got reelected, my brother called me. He said, 52 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: you know, even Hitler had to be popular, like do 53 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: you can't just do unpopular stuff. Obviously, I'm not comparing 54 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:57,399 Speaker 1: Trump to Hitler because they're wildly different. But there has 55 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 1: not been a ton of like care in Trump two 56 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:01,639 Speaker 1: point zero. 57 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 4: No. 58 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 3: I think that they overestimated their support. I think they 59 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 3: were overconfident and they overreached. Trump had not faced any 60 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 3: serious contestation in the Republican Party for years, not for 61 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 3: several years, and I think they've taken all of that forget. 62 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:19,399 Speaker 3: I think they over all of us kind of overblew 63 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 3: the fact that he won the popular vote, which he 64 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 3: had never done before, and they took that as a 65 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 3: mandate which never existed. You're right, they've done a series. 66 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 3: Almost all of their major policies are things that the 67 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 3: public either is indifferent to or as opposed to, and 68 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 3: that's that's hurting them. It's not hurting them the way 69 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 3: that it would have hurted a politician in the old days. 70 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 3: Because Trump has a thirty five percent base that's very 71 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 3: hard to chip away at. But at this pace he's 72 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 3: he's going to continue to decline towards that thirty five 73 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 3: percent floor. 74 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 2: They're sort of intractable. 75 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 4: Right. 76 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 3: It's bad politics, so you can get away with it 77 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 3: if you control the security forces. You can be like 78 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 3: Nicola Baduro in Venezuela and have an eighteen percent approval 79 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 3: rating and fail and fail and fail and fail, and 80 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 3: still still stay in power if you control the security forces. 81 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 3: And you know, Trump has taken some initial steps towards 82 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 3: politicizing our security forces in really really dangerous directions, but 83 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:18,479 Speaker 3: he's not at the point where he can just do 84 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 3: whatever the hell he wants and rely on repression. 85 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 1: Part of it was that it's just not that easy 86 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 1: to go from democracy to authoritarianism, right, I mean, there's 87 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 1: just there's sand in the gears. 88 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 3: Democracy is particularly hard to kill one because the nature 89 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 3: and the strength of our institutions. We have a constitution 90 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 3: that's not easy to push over. We have a very 91 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:41,280 Speaker 3: independent and judiciary. We have federalism, which, as we've seen, 92 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 3: matters a lot, and we have a highly professionalized armed forces, which, 93 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:49,239 Speaker 3: despite Trump's attempts, is not easy to policis. We also 94 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:53,479 Speaker 3: have a much much more vibrant society, a much wealthier, 95 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 3: better organized society than say elsalvad or Russia or other 96 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 3: places where democracy has been has been crushed. So Trump 97 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 3: has undermined democracy. I would argue he's sort of pushed 98 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 3: us mildly over the line into what I would call 99 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 3: competitive authoritarianism. But because of the strength of our institutions, 100 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 3: in the strength of our society, every step of the way, 101 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 3: he is going to be pretty contested, and actually consolidating 102 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 3: something like Putin style rule is going to be really difficult. 103 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 3: I'm curious when. 104 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 1: You could talk about the importance of that Jimmy Kimmel 105 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 1: moment Trump wanted to cancel Kimmel. I mean, what are 106 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:31,480 Speaker 1: the moments when you look back at twenty twenty five, 107 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: where you feel like the critical mass was able to 108 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 1: sort of push back against him. 109 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 3: Very very difficult to isolate the turning point. We still 110 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 3: know for sure that it's going to be a turning point. Ultimately, 111 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,599 Speaker 3: I think the election outcome is going to be very 112 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 3: very important. The response to the initial Libration Day tariff 113 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 3: move was also that was sort of the first blow. 114 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:57,480 Speaker 3: He never really recovered politically from our public opinion, from that. 115 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,599 Speaker 3: But you're right, you know, other than Harvard and a 116 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:05,799 Speaker 3: couple of other cases, very few elite actors in American 117 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,480 Speaker 3: society pushed back on Trump in the first nine months, 118 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 3: and that's one of the reasons why we're in this mess. 119 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 3: The level of elite abdication, from Supreme Court justices to senators, 120 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:18,919 Speaker 3: to business people to media owners, to law firms, the 121 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 3: university presidents has been really, really consequential. And initially, initially 122 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 3: obviously Disney was also giving in, but I haven't seen 123 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 3: the definitive account of why that was reversed. But the 124 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 3: public outcry and the public mobilization in response to that, 125 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 3: I think was significant, and Disney's decision, whatever the basis 126 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 3: of his calculation, to kind of reverse course. Yeah, pretty 127 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 3: important move. 128 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:43,919 Speaker 1: I want you to say more about that the elites, 129 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 1: because from that moment when you had those billionaires at 130 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: the inauguration, to Sherry Redstone canceling Colbert to just at 131 00:06:55,279 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 1: every point we saw billionaires, millionaires, senators. I mean, we 132 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 1: just saw such a level of craven I was kind 133 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 1: of shocked. 134 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 3: It was shocking. I was shocked as well. In fact, 135 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 3: one of the reasons why, even though I've obviously been 136 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 3: writing for years about Trump's authoritarianism, one reason why I 137 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 3: was always relatively confident in US democracy was again that 138 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 3: we have such a wealthy, well organized, well connected society 139 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 3: that's not dependent on the government the way they say 140 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 3: Russian oligarchs are, and that have the resource, We have 141 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 3: the muscle in our society to push back easily against Trump, 142 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 3: and we didn't do it. We didn't do it at 143 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 3: the top. So had you asked me prior to Trump's 144 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 3: selection whether it's a positive or negative that We've got 145 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 3: eight nine hundred billionaires and more than twenty million millionaires 146 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 3: in this country, I would say that's a good thing, 147 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 3: because Trump cannot buy all these folks off, and they're 148 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 3: going to provide resources for the opposition, and the signal 149 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 3: that Jeff Bezos and Zuckerberg and Tim Cook and all 150 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 3: these guys is said, from the moment Trump got elected 151 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 3: was really really powerful because people looked at many many 152 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 3: men of your citizens looked out and said, And Columbia 153 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 3: University is another case. If the most powerful law firm, 154 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 3: the most powerful media comme, the most powerful CEOs, the 155 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 3: most powerful Ivy League universities, if they can't push back 156 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 3: on Trump, what chance do the rest of us have. 157 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 3: It was a very very demobilizing signal from the very 158 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 3: very beginning, and hugely consequential. I think we're still trying 159 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 3: to figure out exactly why that happened. It doesn't always happen. 160 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 3: We can point to countries and even the United States 161 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,719 Speaker 3: in the first Trump administration where elites have been a 162 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:42,079 Speaker 3: little more responsible and put some money and some and 163 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 3: some Kurds on the line and took on Trump. I'm 164 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 3: still trying to explain why that didn't happen this time, 165 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 3: but it was hugely consequental. We would not be in 166 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 3: the mess we're in today had it not been for 167 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 3: the behavior of our elite people who knew better, people 168 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 3: who had private speak very differently, but who were unwilling 169 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 3: to stand up. 170 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it just seemed like the most craven 171 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: calculus largely. I mean there were other things, but you know, 172 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 1: we want to do business. 173 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:13,319 Speaker 3: Really, the whole project of twenty of Project twenty twenty 174 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 3: five man very clear to business owners that if you want, 175 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 3: if they wanted to continue making money over the next 176 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 3: four years, they had to be on good term for Trump. 177 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 3: And they did it. 178 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was sort of equal parts. 179 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 1: They understood Trump, these organizations like the Heritage Foundation, so 180 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 1: they were able to sort of put in place a 181 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 1: kind of intellectual not intellectual, but a kind of structure 182 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:37,839 Speaker 1: behind his basest instincts. 183 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 3: Right. Yeah, every government and in every political regime is 184 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 3: a coalition and a confluence of different forces. But two 185 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 3: of the major players in this government are on the 186 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 3: one hand, Trump and his loyalists, his appointees, who are 187 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 3: just simply hacks who depend entirely on him and do 188 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 3: his bidding. Trump has no ideology, his very authoritarian instincts, 189 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 3: but it's hyper pragmatic. People can sort of figure out 190 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 3: how to please him pretty easily and then aligned with him. 191 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:11,959 Speaker 3: I mean, Heritage is somewhat different and people like Stephen 192 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 3: Miller and Russ Vaught are much more ideological. There are 193 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 3: ideological authoritarians in this government who do have a project 194 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 3: which is pretty similar to draws quite a bit on 195 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 3: Victor Orbon in Hungary and others, which is not to 196 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 3: politicize the state just to get rich and to make 197 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 3: sure nobody questions you when you pursue your goals like Trump. 198 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 3: I mean, these guys really do see this country's public 199 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 3: and private institutions as being corroded by choose your term, 200 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 3: cultural Marxists or leftists or socialists, and they have a 201 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:50,839 Speaker 3: project of packing this country's institutions with basically ethno nationalists 202 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 3: and purging left liberal ideas from this country and kind 203 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 3: of rolling back the steps that this country's taken towards 204 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:02,079 Speaker 3: multiracial democracy over our lifetimes. It's a radical authoritarian agenda, 205 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 3: but it's coherent, and Trump doesn't live and die with that. 206 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 3: It's an alliance talk us through sort of. 207 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,079 Speaker 1: If you look at the broad sweep of American history, 208 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 1: what do you think it is? 209 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 3: Multiracial democracy is a really hard thing to pull off. 210 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 3: I'm talking about a democracy in a diverse society in 211 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 3: which the rights of individuals of all ethnic groups are 212 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 3: protected equally. We've had that on paper since nineteen sixty 213 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 3: four or sixty five. We tried it in the aftermath 214 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 3: of the Civil War. It triggered a very, very violent, 215 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 3: very authoritarian reaction that resulted in nearly a century of 216 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 3: authoritarianism in the US South. So our first experiment with 217 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 3: multiracial democracy in the late eighteen sixties was violently and 218 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 3: thoroughly derailed. We attempted it again with the Civil Rights 219 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 3: Revolution in the fifties and sixties. On paper, we got 220 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:51,959 Speaker 3: there in nineteen sixty four sixty five, and that began, 221 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 3: along with the massive wave of immigration that we experienced 222 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 3: also since the mid nineteen sixties, began a long, slow 223 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 3: march to a country that was much more diverse and 224 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:07,079 Speaker 3: much more egalitarian than ever before in history. And that 225 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 3: was a pretty radical experiment. I don't think any country 226 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 3: has ever achieved a truly multi racial democracy. Yet what 227 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 3: certainly never happened is you've never had a democracy in 228 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 3: history in which the long dominant ethnic majority loses that 229 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 3: dominance and loses that majority. And that's what the United 230 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 3: States is experiencing in the twenty first century. That's a 231 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 3: big deal, and it turns out it's a bigger deal, 232 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 3: I think than most of us expected, certainly including me. 233 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 3: I think fundamentally there are a lot of things going on. 234 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:42,959 Speaker 3: There's never one cause of a political crisis or a 235 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 3: political conflict. It would be ridiculous to suggest that there was. 236 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 3: But I think the principal source of our conflict in 237 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 3: the twenty teens in twenty twenties is a reaction to 238 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 3: the pretty significant steps that we've taken towards multi racial 239 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 3: democracy over our lifetimes, to the challenges, the unprecedented challenges 240 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 3: to racial and gender and social hierarchies that we've experienced 241 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 3: just in our adult lifetimes. 242 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 2: And that's why they're so obsessed with South Africa. 243 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 3: Right, What else explains that? Right? These guys are I 244 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 3: guess ethno nationalists is a polite way of putting it. 245 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:20,679 Speaker 3: There are other ways of putting it. They're pretty white supremacist. 246 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 1: Right, because the South Africa stuff never made any sense 247 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 1: to me really. I mean, I know that a lot 248 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 1: of billionaires in Trump's orbit are from South Africa, but 249 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: that makes more sense if you think about it in 250 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 1: the way of white people worried that their stuff is 251 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: being taken away. 252 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 3: Their status is being taken away. They're dominant status. I mean, 253 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 3: white coasts are doing fine in this country. But the 254 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 3: days in which all of this country's political leaders, all 255 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 3: of the top CEOs, all of the judges, all the 256 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 3: football coaches, all the university presidents, all the TV talking heads, 257 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:55,199 Speaker 3: all the people you watch on television commercials, if anyone 258 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 3: watches televit commercials anymore, all of those people when we 259 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 3: were kids were white. Those days are gone, and that's 260 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 3: what's being reacted to. 261 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 1: That's why there's so much talk about the fifties and nostalgia, 262 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 1: and those are sort of code words. 263 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 3: I think so. And of course it's not just race. Gender. 264 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 3: Hierarchies have also been seriously challenged. Hierarchies that were in 265 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 3: place for two centuries, for generation after generation after generation 266 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 3: after generation after generation suddenly in one generation having seriously challenge. 267 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: So you think it's just a sort of like overturning row. 268 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: These are the kind of pushbacks to the arc of progress. 269 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 3: I think that's a big part of what's going on. 270 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 3: Sometimes we don't appreciate, I think how much progress we've 271 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 3: made since the middle of the twentieth century. If you 272 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 3: care about things like racial, social, and generar equality. But yeah, again, 273 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 3: there are other things going on, the underlying economic issues, 274 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 3: growing inequality, declining social mobility, all those things matter a lot. 275 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 3: But fundamentally, I think this is a reaction towards towards 276 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 3: our steps towards equality. 277 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 4: Yeah. 278 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: I talked to someone who's like a straight journalist who 279 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: was in Europe covering the disastrous Trump witkof negotiation with 280 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 1: Russia and Ukraine, which has completely gone off the rails 281 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 1: if it ever was on the rails, And this person 282 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: told me there was so much anxiety in Europe about 283 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: creeping authoritarianism. And my friend said, but I told them 284 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: Trump is not popular here, but the Europeans it does 285 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: feel like they have a whole other level of anxiety 286 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 1: about us, which I feel like after the twenty five elections, 287 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 1: we see a way out of this. 288 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 2: What do you think, Well. 289 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 3: First of all, there's always going to be a bit 290 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 3: of a lag between public perceptions elsewhere in the world 291 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 3: and sort of how we're seeing things in the day 292 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 3: to day here. But this is obviously a very big deal. 293 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 3: The United States, for better or worse, probably better and worse. 294 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 3: Was the leader of the Liberal world it has been 295 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 3: since World War Two, and it really sort of picked 296 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 3: up that role again after the fall of Blin Wall. 297 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 3: The US was in an increasingly multipolar world. I mean, 298 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 3: for the nineteen nineties, we had it easy because the 299 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 3: liberal West was hegemonic in the world. But that wasn't 300 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 3: gonna last forever. And with the emerges, the slow rise 301 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 3: of China and the resurgence of Russia as an aggressive 302 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 3: anti liberal power, this became a more difficult, scarier world. 303 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 3: And the United States was the military, economic, and ideological 304 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 3: leader of the liberal West. And Donald Trump threatened to 305 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 3: switch sides, to leave the liberal team and join forces 306 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 3: with the bad guys. And if you are anybody, including America, 307 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:39,479 Speaker 3: the liberals in the United States, and I mean liberalism 308 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 3: in a classical sense to include a large number of 309 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 3: even Reagan Conservatives, if you're a liberal and you see 310 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 3: the leader of the liberal West switching side to the 311 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 3: other team, that's really scary. What Europeans have had to 312 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 3: conclude is even in the best case, even if twenty 313 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 3: five elections portend, you know, relatively good news of the 314 00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 3: United States second time around, after we brought back Trump, 315 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 3: after everything, the Europeans know that they can't rely on 316 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 3: us in the best case scenario where we're vulnerable to 317 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:11,679 Speaker 3: the flip flop between reasonable governments and unreasonable governments. So 318 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 3: the days of being able to rely on the United 319 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 3: States as a leader of the liberal West. 320 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 2: I think we're over so interesting. Will you please come back? 321 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 3: Oh? 322 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:21,639 Speaker 4: Sure, happy to. 323 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 1: We have exciting news over on our YouTube channel. This 324 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 1: second episode from our Project twenty twenty nine. 325 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 2: Series is out now. 326 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: It's a reimagining where we examine what went wrong with 327 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 1: democrats approach to politics and how we can correct it 328 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: and deliver changes to help people's lives. The first episode 329 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:49,160 Speaker 1: dove into the very sexy topic of campaign finance reform, 330 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 1: and our second episode deals with an even sexier topic, 331 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 1: antitrust and regulation. We look at how antitrust and regulation 332 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:04,680 Speaker 1: can protect American citizens and make America thrive in an 333 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 1: era of rampant corruption and predatory crony capitalism. We talk 334 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:13,160 Speaker 1: to the smartest names in the field like Lena Kahn, 335 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 1: Elvero Bedoya, Elizabeth. 336 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,119 Speaker 2: Wilkins, and Doha Mecki. 337 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:22,159 Speaker 1: Republicans were prepared for when they got the levers of power. 338 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 1: We need Democrats to be too, so please head over 339 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:29,640 Speaker 1: to YouTube and search Mollie John Fast Project twenty twenty nine, 340 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:34,399 Speaker 1: or go to the Fast Politics YouTube channel and find 341 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 1: it there and help us spread the word. Michael Roth 342 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:43,440 Speaker 1: is a president of Wesleyan University. Welcome to Fast Politics. 343 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 4: Michael Roth, Thank you for having me. Glad to be here. 344 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: You are a president of the closest thing I have 345 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 1: ever come to college, Wesleyan University. I wanted you to 346 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: come on for any number of reasons, but what I 347 00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 1: really wanted to talk to you about first was you 348 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 1: have been one of the very very very few brave 349 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 1: college presidents who has talked about how important education is 350 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 1: and democracy. So I would love you to start by 351 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: talking about what it took to be brave like that, 352 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:20,200 Speaker 1: and why you decided to make that calculus and how 353 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 1: it's gone. 354 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 4: Well, you know, I had no idea it was brave, 355 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 4: frankly right. If I had, I probably would have kept 356 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 4: my mouth shut. I thought, everybody knows if you're in 357 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,399 Speaker 4: the college and world, and if you're in education, that 358 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 4: education depends on freedom. If you interfere with you believe 359 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 4: people to think for themselves, express themselves. I mean, of 360 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 4: course there's always some pressure listener or that. But you know, basically, 361 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:46,880 Speaker 4: if you're going to experiment and discover things about yourself 362 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:49,719 Speaker 4: in the world, you have to have freedom. Everybody knows that. 363 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 4: I mean, it's not like college presidents didn't know that. 364 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,680 Speaker 4: Professors know, their teachers know that. But when the current 365 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:58,400 Speaker 4: president got elected, suddenly people said, I can't say that, 366 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 4: And everybody knows. We've been saying this for so long. 367 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 4: Everybody knows that you learn more when there are people 368 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:06,439 Speaker 4: in the room who don't share your opinion and it 369 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 4: don't come from the same background as you. And we 370 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:11,200 Speaker 4: all know that you learn more in a diverse environment, 371 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:14,199 Speaker 4: and that you learn more when people feel they belong 372 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:16,880 Speaker 4: to the same endeavor, they're on the same team. I've 373 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 4: been saying this stuff for a long time, but everybody 374 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 4: else stopped talking. It seems so almost everyone. And it's 375 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 4: like those old If Hutton commercials where somebody whispers and 376 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 4: it seems very loud because everyone has stopped talking about 377 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 4: that case the stock market, in this case democracy. You know, 378 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 4: many of my fellow presidents, certainly my students, that they're 379 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 4: to the left of me. My progressive credentials are, let's say, uneven. 380 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:42,679 Speaker 4: It seems so obvious that if we don't stand up 381 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:47,200 Speaker 4: for democracy and education, our educational values and our political 382 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 4: possibilities will be vastly diminished. So I've been saying that 383 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 4: as often as I can, because I really do believe 384 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 4: the threat is profound right now. 385 00:20:56,320 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 1: I think it's very interesting that the Trump administration has 386 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 1: in this second term really focused on education, and I 387 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 1: wonder if you could explain to us why you think 388 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:08,879 Speaker 1: that is. 389 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 4: It's been the case for a long time that people 390 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 4: who want to centralize power, people who are prone to 391 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 4: tyrannical rule, whether they're in this country or anywhere else 392 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 4: in the world, they feel, and rightly so, they need 393 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:26,199 Speaker 4: to control educational institutions and cultural institutions. Fascists knew this, 394 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:30,200 Speaker 4: but even people who take over like monarchies know that 395 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 4: if they don't coordinate their power into civil society, into 396 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 4: places like education and entertainment, even things like the law 397 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 4: firms and certainly journalists, that if they don't get those 398 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 4: things in line, the chances of centralizing power is greatly reduced. 399 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,879 Speaker 4: For the current administration, they also thought well, colleges and 400 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:56,439 Speaker 4: universities have tilted so far to the left over the 401 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:59,360 Speaker 4: last say twenty years, or so, and that that has 402 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,360 Speaker 4: been a subject discussion that many people won't object if 403 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 4: we attack them for being too elitist. I mean, you 404 00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 4: can't attack the State University of Iowa or you know, 405 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 4: the branch campus of the University of Connecticut for being elitist. 406 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,399 Speaker 4: But if you attack Harvard and Penn and Princeton and 407 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:19,679 Speaker 4: so on, people say, yeah, those bathroards. You know, I 408 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 4: didn't get it. I didn't get in Harvard. I'm glad 409 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:24,400 Speaker 4: of getting smacked. That was it not a hard decision, 410 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 4: I think to go after them. And I think this 411 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 4: president actually has you know, there has so many chips 412 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 4: on his show. He must have more than two shoulders. 413 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 4: He has so many chips on his shoulders because he 414 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 4: feels like they've never really respected him. And so there's 415 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,920 Speaker 4: a kind of personal dimension to this. But I think politically, 416 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 4: people who aspire to be tyrants, people who aspire to 417 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:47,199 Speaker 4: central power want to control education because education is a 418 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 4: place where independence thinking can take off. It should be 419 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 4: and tyrants or people who want strong central power object 420 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 4: to that. And last time, the first Trump administration, there 421 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:00,199 Speaker 4: are lots of things that got in the way. We 422 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:02,679 Speaker 4: keep hearing this, right, there is the general said no, 423 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,399 Speaker 4: you can't do that, or the chief of staff has 424 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 4: gotten the way, or a lot of people said protected. 425 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,160 Speaker 4: They said they protected the Trump in prison, Trump from 426 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 4: his worst instincts. That's what education does. It gets in 427 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 4: the way of people who are trying to push other 428 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,239 Speaker 4: people around. At least that's part of what it should do, 429 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 4: because it says, well, well that what you're saying isn't true, 430 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 4: or you haven't considered this other argument. These are the 431 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 4: things people in education say. So the administration said, we 432 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 4: have to stop that. And what we really want I 433 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 4: have to say, I was so surprised by this. I'm embarrassed. 434 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 3: I surprised, I was. 435 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,400 Speaker 4: What we really want is loyalty. We want the college's 436 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 4: universities to say, we will play ball and we will 437 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,399 Speaker 4: express the views that don't get you upset with us. 438 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,360 Speaker 4: We are going to be loyal like this Compact for Excellence. 439 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 4: It's really just a loyalty of I'm shocked at how 440 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 4: many educational leaders fall over themselves to express loyalty to 441 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 4: a regime they despise. I do think they despise the regime, 442 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 4: but they're so afraid of it because it's so powerful 443 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,120 Speaker 4: that they wind up expressing loyalty or at least being 444 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 4: silent when disloyal people are punished. 445 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,119 Speaker 2: I have a lot of schools side on. 446 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,400 Speaker 1: I know there's been pushback, and I think I've been 447 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 1: really proud to see a lot of pushback. And some schools, 448 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: like the schools that have conservative backing right that are 449 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:28,160 Speaker 1: in states like Texas where the state government has gone 450 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 1: completely insane, have gone along with stuff. But have you 451 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: seen it in other places where you've been surprised? 452 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,919 Speaker 4: Well, I think with the compact, very few schools have 453 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,919 Speaker 4: accepted that as a general program. I've described it in 454 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 4: an essay as you know, basically a loyalty program, you 455 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 4: know of a kindly get it at Sam's cloud or 456 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 4: with an airline. And most schools have said no to 457 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 4: parts of that. And so the administration's mo has been 458 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,920 Speaker 4: to try to strike separate deals with very important schools, 459 00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 4: very wealthy schools, schools with extraordinary research profiles, and sometimes 460 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,159 Speaker 4: with hospitals that depend on funding. And these schools have 461 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,879 Speaker 4: made deals with the administration. And I can't say I 462 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,119 Speaker 4: blame them because they're in a hard spot. 463 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 2: I need you to explain why they're in a hard spot. 464 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,199 Speaker 4: Well, because it's if you're the president of university and 465 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 4: you have a hospital attached to the university and there 466 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 4: are lots of patients getting their medication for clinical trials 467 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 4: that are supported with federal research grants, and they freeze 468 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 4: the grant, the patient's medication goes away. 469 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, we're talking tens to hundreds of millions of dollars 470 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,680 Speaker 1: dollars that could not be made up to philanthropy. 471 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 3: That's right. 472 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 4: The research universities have gotten extraordinarily dependent on the federal 473 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:42,239 Speaker 4: government because the research done there is so good for 474 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,119 Speaker 4: the United States. Right, It's not like they're just giving 475 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,359 Speaker 4: these schools money because these schools are nice or something. 476 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 4: They're giving researchers money who do a lot of work 477 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:53,479 Speaker 4: in exchange for the support they get so that we 478 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 4: can make discoveries about diabetes, or about average space, or 479 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:02,200 Speaker 4: about cancer research in Alzheimer's. And so that ecosystem has 480 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 4: survived many transitions. You know, over the last sixty or 481 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 4: seventy years, publicans democrats like ohsaw this ecosystem as being 482 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 4: one of the great strengths of the country. This administration 483 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 4: seems not to care about that side of things, That 484 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,440 Speaker 4: is that it's one of the great strengths of the country. 485 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,640 Speaker 4: If those folks don't express loyalty, if they don't align 486 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 4: their research priorities with the administration, they will get their funding cut. 487 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,159 Speaker 4: And so the leaders of those schools are in the 488 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,160 Speaker 4: hard place because they have all these scientists who can't 489 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 4: actually do their work unless they have grand funding. And 490 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 4: then you have countries like Canada or networks like the 491 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 4: European Union offerings they will give you money. Come to 492 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 4: Canada and do research, Come to the Europe and do research. 493 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 4: China is funding its scientists like nobody's business. I mean, 494 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 4: they're really investing heavily. So people are afraid of that, 495 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 4: and then they're afraid of being targeted by right wing influencers. 496 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 4: They're afraid of being an object of ridicule among the 497 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 4: kinds of folks who are well connected with this administration. 498 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,640 Speaker 4: That said, there are some people who are speaking out. 499 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 4: Basically it could be pretty conservative and still think that 500 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 4: this assault on education, which I think is an assault 501 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 4: on civil society more generally, that that's just so against the 502 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,879 Speaker 4: American commitment to basic freedoms that we've had for a 503 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,640 Speaker 4: couple of hundred years. Unevenly applied, for sure, but still 504 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,679 Speaker 4: is a great conservative argument to be made and is 505 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:31,119 Speaker 4: being made against the centralization of power in the Thirdero 506 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 4: government generally, and especially in the White House in particular. 507 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 4: You know, maybe this week we see some more Republicans 508 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,479 Speaker 4: willing to express that view, which is a view they 509 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 4: had long held. But if you're disloyal to this president, 510 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 4: he will try to find a way to make you 511 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,119 Speaker 4: pay a price, as we've seen over the last several months, 512 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:52,120 Speaker 4: and many people in higher education seem to say, well, 513 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,919 Speaker 4: why don't I just wait and see? And that I 514 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 4: do think is shameful. 515 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,439 Speaker 1: Yes, I want to go back for a minute. This 516 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 1: is very unpopular what Trump is doing. Trump sort of 517 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 1: took a page from Victor Orbond, went for the universities, 518 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:12,360 Speaker 1: decided these annoying liberals have always annoyed me. Anyway, let's go, 519 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 1: let's just crush the universities. What we've seen, and again, 520 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 1: I've been surprised at how hard it's been for a 521 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:22,400 Speaker 1: lot of institutions to push back. Now that we see 522 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 1: that this is so wildly unpopular, that voters hated, that 523 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:32,920 Speaker 1: even conservative voters hated, and we're seeing numbers that Republicans 524 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,679 Speaker 1: don't want to identify as MAGA anymore. I mean not 525 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 1: huge numbers. When you think about that and you look 526 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 1: at the sort of landscape, does it undermine the bravery 527 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 1: that these people are responding to the popular you know, pushback? 528 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:50,479 Speaker 2: I mean, talk to me about that. 529 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 4: I think we just need allies to remind people that 530 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 4: democracy can be destroyed and that rights can be quickly eroded. 531 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 4: And people get used to seeing soldiers in the street. 532 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 4: Lots of things will change. If you get used to 533 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 4: the government intervening in the classroom, lots of other things 534 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 4: will change. And people have got used to this. People 535 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 4: have said, here's my red line. You know, if we 536 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 4: can't choose the clients we're going to defend without getting 537 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 4: punished by the federal government from a law firm, that's 538 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 4: the red line. But that people have crossed that line, 539 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 4: and once that happens, people get used to this. You 540 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 4: can't offer the care that your doctors want to offer 541 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 4: to trans people because the federal government doesn't like that 542 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 4: kind of care. Once you accept that, it get used 543 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 4: to accepting that, lots of other things will change. So 544 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 4: I think it's worthwhile reminding folks that these traditions and 545 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 4: principles of local autonomy, of institutional autonomy, not because we 546 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 4: have to separate ourselves from the government. I get money. 547 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 4: I think the money part has always worked because the 548 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 4: recipients of the grants haven't been independent enough to do 549 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 4: their experiments to pursue truth. I mean, and that's so 550 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 4: really important. We don't want that the educational output of Hungary. 551 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 2: We don't. 552 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 4: We don't. And what happens when centralized tyrants get power. 553 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 4: If rietarians get power, the intellectuals flee, they try to 554 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 4: get out, and they take their science elsewhere. And we 555 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 4: don't want that to happen here. And so if people 556 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 4: are beginning to say, well, I can speak out now 557 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 4: because it looks like it's not as he's not as 558 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 4: powerful as he was three months ago, I'm delighted. My 559 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 4: goal is simply to have people recognize how important are 560 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 4: freedom of speech, freedom of association, academic freedom to teach 561 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 4: how you see fit professionally. These are things that we 562 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 4: should we should really fight for. And the federal government, 563 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,480 Speaker 4: it was elected in the way it was and they 564 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 4: have certain powers. I don't want to violate the law, 565 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 4: but I do think the government should obey the law. 566 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 4: And so you know, when ICE agents don't obey their 567 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 4: own rules or don't obey the laws of the land, 568 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 4: I think we should call them out. But I also 569 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 4: recognize that Trump won the election and there are consequences 570 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 4: to that, but the consequences should be kept within the 571 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 4: boundaries of the Constitution. And I feel like at least 572 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 4: what I think I've been I see myself as trying 573 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 4: to have done is just remind people of what's when 574 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 4: the government, already very powerful, violates its own rules. 575 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 1: Some of what has happened has that the ADMIN has 576 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 1: figured out ways in which the universities are vulnerable. Yes, 577 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: a good example Harvard has a ton of foreign students, 578 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 1: and foreign students need more federal support than American students. 579 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 1: And we see that when it comes to the hospital systems. Right, 580 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 1: So you have a university that has a hospital, and 581 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 1: the hospital is relying on both federal grants and the 582 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 1: problems mushroom. If we ever get out of this thing, 583 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 1: which I think we're pretty likely to be able to 584 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 1: get out of it, what are the things that when 585 00:31:55,920 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 1: we look to federal regulation that can protect academic institutions 586 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 1: from presidents who are ambitious in this way in the future. 587 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 1: Do you have thoughts on what that would look like? 588 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 1: Just from my own edification. 589 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 4: The universities have used legal arguments against the overreach of 590 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 4: the administration, and most of the time in the courts 591 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 4: they have been successful. But this takes a long time 592 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 4: and it's very expensive, and the federal government can just 593 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 4: continue to litigate forever. I do think codifying what's at 594 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 4: stake with academic freedom and the independence of researchers and 595 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 4: teachers to do as they see fait professionally that they 596 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 4: should do, that's really important. I think the chances of 597 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 4: getting that enshrined in statute are extremely challenging. It's existed 598 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 4: for a long time by convention or by just norms 599 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 4: that this administration has violated. Reminding people how much we 600 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 4: lose when we close our borders to ambitious, thoughtful people 601 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 4: who want to come here and make their way in 602 00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 4: the world. That we lose, we lose so much by 603 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 4: the country of their contributions that when the Nobel Prizes 604 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 4: released recently in a number of Americans is astonishing, but 605 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 4: the percentage of those Americans who actually came to this 606 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 4: country within a generation or two is staggering. And that's 607 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,480 Speaker 4: great about America actually is that we become a home 608 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 4: for people who didn't think this would be their home, 609 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 4: and then they do extraordinary things. So I think making 610 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 4: sure that the polititization of the visa process should be 611 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 4: prevented at all costs. There will always be legitimate national 612 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 4: security concerns about in the visa process. We don't want 613 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 4: to admit terrorists, we don't want to admit spies, and 614 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 4: those things have to happen. But the basic thing that 615 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 4: we should see, and this is that our due process 616 00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 4: protections are so vital to our integrity as institutions. And 617 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 4: when a president comes in and says I'm getting rid 618 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 4: of all those things, and about my administration did some 619 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,800 Speaker 4: of that in their title line work. They said, you've 620 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 4: got to, you know, change the way you adjudicate claims 621 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 4: of sexual harassment sexual assault on college campuses. You won't 622 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 4: have due process actually for people who are accused at 623 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 4: every school. Kind of found a way to comply. We 624 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 4: now know that when you just do away with due process, 625 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,319 Speaker 4: the people most likely to suffer in the long run 626 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,279 Speaker 4: will be the most vulnerable people. And so standing by 627 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 4: our due process protections that people are innocent to proven guilty, 628 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 4: that you shouldn't politicize criminal or civil disputes, and as 629 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 4: best we can to defend the local freedom to pursue 630 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 4: education and economic development without regard to political affiliation. And 631 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 4: in universities, that will also mean that we need to 632 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,840 Speaker 4: have more conservative voices on campus. We need to be 633 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,400 Speaker 4: less of a monoculture on colleges universities. I mean, the 634 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:48,959 Speaker 4: trum administration has made that argument, and so I find 635 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 4: it awkward to make it too. I've been making it 636 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 4: for ten years. But I do think we have a 637 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 4: lot of improvements higher education can make and being more accessible, 638 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 4: being more open minded, and being even more open to 639 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:03,439 Speaker 4: students from around the world who want to learn here 640 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 4: and contribute to the country. But we're a long way 641 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 4: from that right now. I think we're playing defense against 642 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,600 Speaker 4: a White House that is really overreaching in ways that 643 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,400 Speaker 4: bode ill for the future of the country. 644 00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:18,840 Speaker 2: Michael Roth, thank you, thank you, thank you. 645 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:19,560 Speaker 3: You're welcome. 646 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 2: That's it for. 647 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:27,400 Speaker 1: This episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, 648 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 1: Thursday and Saturday to hear the best minds and politics 649 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 1: make sense. 650 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:34,680 Speaker 2: Of all this chaos. 651 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,799 Speaker 1: If you enjoy this podcast. Please send it to a 652 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:41,880 Speaker 1: friend and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.