1 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Bonivere started in two thousand and six as a 2 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:16,759 Speaker 1: solo project for Justin Vernon after the breakup of his 3 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: college band. He recorded his first album in his dad's 4 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:23,079 Speaker 1: hunting cabin deep in the woods of Wisconsin, just him, 5 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: an acoustic guitar, a lot of fresh venison, and DVDs 6 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: of northern exposure. That debut got so big that within 7 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 1: a few years of its release, bony Vera was collaborating 8 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: with people like Beck and Kanye West, which may help 9 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: explain the shift in musical direction Bonievere's music has taken. 10 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:42,479 Speaker 1: His Palliative Sounds has expanded a lot across four albums, 11 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:45,160 Speaker 1: and Bonivere is no longer just a solo project either. 12 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: It's still centered around Justin, but it includes a whole 13 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: bunch of collaborators from Wisconsin, where Justin still lives, and 14 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: it's building his own Shangraloss style recording studio. Surprisingly, Justin 15 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 1: and Rick Rubin had never met until they recorded this podcast. 16 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: Despite their close working relationship with Kanye, there's a chance 17 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: for them to get to know one another, discuss Justin's career, 18 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 1: and shout about one of Justin's all time favorite groups, 19 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: The Indigo girls. This is Broken Record Season three. Liner 20 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 1: notes for the Digital Age. I'm justin Richmond. Just a 21 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:23,399 Speaker 1: quick note here. You can listen to all of the 22 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:26,319 Speaker 1: music mentioned in this episode on our playlist, which you 23 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: can find a link to in the show notes. For 24 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: licensing reasons, each time a song is referenced in this episode, 25 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: you'll hear this sound effect all right. Enjoy the episode. 26 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,400 Speaker 1: Here's justin Vernon and its producer Chris Messina and conversation 27 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: with Rick Rubin that I've right into the kind of 28 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: talk producer's love by building a live work studio space 29 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: far away from the noisy world. Tell me about your place. 30 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: I've heard great things about it. Well, me and Chris 31 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 1: have been working on it for many years. It's under 32 00:01:57,160 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: construction right now because we kind of we hit a 33 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 1: point where we needed to to spread out a little bit. 34 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: Tell me the whole story of how it How did 35 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 1: it come to pass? The house I grew up in, 36 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,839 Speaker 1: it's only three miles from there, and it's uh my 37 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: brother found it and it's on tap ten acres, you know, 38 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: super cheap and old. It was an old like seventies 39 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:21,919 Speaker 1: ranch house and that indoor pool and they had a Yeah, awesome. Yeah, 40 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 1: we end up making that our makeship live room for 41 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: many years, but it's not ten acres in the woods 42 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 1: and it's like my ship, you know, incredible. Yeah, and 43 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: so but we sort of did it d I Y 44 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:34,359 Speaker 1: for a while, and then I found Chris and took 45 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: him off of a production touring thing and and got 46 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: him out there to just basically make it proper, you know. 47 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 1: And so we've been kind of out of the d 48 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: I Y zone and more and like a trying to 49 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: make a proper tracking space for about eight seven years. 50 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: Now you've been out there, I guess, Chris, how how 51 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 1: would you say it changed from it's d I Y 52 00:02:56,919 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 1: incarnation to the current one. I feel like more less 53 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 1: stuff falls off the walls now maybe or's something. Yeah, 54 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: I'm not the one putting stuff on the walls that. Yeah, 55 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: I feel like that we did like a lot of 56 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:08,799 Speaker 1: teear tottering kind of before I got there, and then 57 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 1: even still after I did just baby steps when we 58 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:15,799 Speaker 1: really just needed to do one kind of big move. Yeah. 59 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 1: But I think it's just been getting the recording spaces, 60 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:21,959 Speaker 1: you know, more attractive sounding, and then also improving all 61 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: of the wellness spaces and just the vibe of the place, 62 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 1: because that's you know, made a pretty good record with 63 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:32,800 Speaker 1: just a pretty cruddy studio. Yeah, and then it's because 64 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: the vibe is there, you know, which obviously you understand 65 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: pretty well. Absolutely, And when I just lived there too, 66 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: like I lived there for many years until I live 67 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: in the guesthouse up back, which is cool, but I'm 68 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: gonna build a house next door actually, just but just 69 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: being in the studio and it not being set up 70 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: for really being having like a home home base or 71 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: a really I don't know, any a wellness vibe. It 72 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: was just recording making music, you know. Yeah. So we 73 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: went through like the different iterations too, of like not 74 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: knowing if we wanted to be a commercial space or 75 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: if we were going to be a private space or 76 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: just justin or what the deal was going to be, 77 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 1: And so we went through all those different versions. We 78 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:19,799 Speaker 1: had to do that to learn what we didn't like basically, 79 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:21,720 Speaker 1: and it's really just better off to be kind of 80 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 1: a friends and family zone and us it's it's the 81 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: best version of it. Absolutely. Yeah, that's that's pretty much 82 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 1: how we do it too. It's yea. And originally I 83 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 1: didn't I didn't think anybody else would work here but us. 84 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:37,359 Speaker 1: But then I was away and friend asked, oh, you 85 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:39,479 Speaker 1: think we could work here. It's like, that'd be cool. 86 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: And so now I like the idea because if because 87 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: I've worked so much over the course of my life, 88 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: that it's like a way to trick myself into not 89 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: being a workaholic. There you go, that's that. We're just 90 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: talking about that in the way out here. It's like, man, 91 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 1: it's like I love music so much and I could 92 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: do it every single day. Yeah, but it's not a 93 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: comfortable feeling when you're like, is this all I am? Yeah, 94 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 1: then you can get caught up in it. For it's 95 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:08,720 Speaker 1: easy too when you love something so much. But and 96 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: I don't know if work with a capital W is 97 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:13,359 Speaker 1: really the name of the thing that we do because 98 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 1: we love it so much. But it's at the end 99 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: of the day, it is what you're spending time doing, right, absolutely, absolutely, 100 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: And and for most of my life it was in 101 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: you know, dark rooms with no window, dark little dirty rooms, 102 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: So most of my life was just like in really 103 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: unpleasant places. Yes, it doesn't encourage you to be a 104 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: healthy person all the time either, And I think so 105 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:38,280 Speaker 1: much of the inspiration of the work we do comes 106 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: from not just doing the work. The fuel that drives 107 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:47,479 Speaker 1: the process comes from life outside of the studio. Yes, exactly, 108 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 1: it's exactly. The fuel has been my metaphor lately. It's 109 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 1: like gas and the tank, healthy engines. You know, everything's 110 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:55,839 Speaker 1: running on, you know, and music is beautiful enough to 111 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:59,160 Speaker 1: be inspired by only music. But then that isn't it. 112 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 1: That's not a closet, right, so you gotta go out 113 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: and go to Grandma's house or whatever it is. Do 114 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 1: you call it a band? Yeah, idea project band. I 115 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: don't know what it is. Was it a clear like, 116 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 1: tell me from the beginning? How did it start? That's 117 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: actually an easier way to answer it. It's like I 118 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: was in a band with with some of my closest 119 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 1: friends and people that grew up learning how to play 120 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: music around, and we sort of had that mid twenties 121 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: sort of breakup winner separate ways, and I was kind 122 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:34,720 Speaker 1: of considering not trying to make a career in music 123 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:36,239 Speaker 1: and maybe go back to school and all this stuff. 124 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: But in that very moment is when I sort of 125 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 1: started making the first songs for what would become Bonevair, 126 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:48,280 Speaker 1: And I remember not having a name until I finished 127 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 1: finished the album and I was watching Northern Exposure, that 128 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: show from the early nineties, and there's this episode where 129 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 1: the first snow falls in this little Alaskan town and 130 00:06:57,440 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: everyone goes out and greets each other like Boneva Believer, 131 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 1: and I thought, well, that's a good thing, because that's 132 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:05,479 Speaker 1: kind of what that's I've always been inspired by where 133 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: I'm from and all that it lacks, you know, everything 134 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: that it lacks, it doesn't have that the other big 135 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 1: cities in the world have. There's something I've always enjoyed 136 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 1: about and keyed in about what it's like to be 137 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: from where I'm from, and how tough the winter makes 138 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: you and and how really nobody has the time and 139 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: energy to prove anything to anyone else or something which 140 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: can be very beneficial and have its drawbacks as well. 141 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: But that's that's where it came from. So I thought, this, 142 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 1: this Bonavierre thing, it's almost feels like a community, a town. 143 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: Even though it started with just me. I had this 144 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: idea that it's like it's gonna be a town or 145 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: a little town, or a growing thing or a greeting 146 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 1: or something. And and of course at the end of 147 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: the day. It's a band, it's an artist, it's a thing, 148 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: and so I try not to be too precious about it. 149 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: But that's how I still believe in it. And you know, 150 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 1: eleven twelve years later, now I guess it is it. 151 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: It really has blossomed into a real breathing community with 152 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: love and support and all everything beautiful. Yeah, did you 153 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: make the first album by yourself? Yeah? Tell me tell 154 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 1: me the story. Yeah, So I was. I was living 155 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:15,239 Speaker 1: in North Carolina, and I'd started some of these things, 156 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: and as the band kind of broke up, I I 157 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: sort of kind of high tailed it back to Wisconsin. 158 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: I really lived in Wisconsin my whole life, minus that 159 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 1: year and whatever amount of time I've been on the road. 160 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 1: But at that point, I'd never been on the road 161 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 1: really before. I'd never really had any paying music work 162 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 1: other than weekend bar gigs and guitar teaching. So I 163 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 1: brought I brought my little Digio one pro tools rig 164 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: and my MACG four up to my dad's hunting cabin 165 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:49,959 Speaker 1: kind of an hour north of where where we grew up, 166 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 1: and he just kind of let me go in there, 167 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 1: and I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. 168 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 1: If I'd go back to school to be a music teacher, 169 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: I'd have to wait to the fall, and this was 170 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: right in the winter, and so he just let me 171 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 1: set up there. And I just had my little set 172 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 1: up in a couple of guitars, and and I'd done 173 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 1: some engineering and some making some records before, but I 174 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 1: had kind of just lost some of the gear and 175 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,079 Speaker 1: so it was a very very meager setup, which ended 176 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: up being a really great thing. And so over the 177 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 1: over kind of a three month period, just kind of 178 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: being there by myself, unless my dad would stop by 179 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 1: over the weekend to work on a sawmill or something like. 180 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 1: I was just there letting myself be bored, allowing myself 181 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 1: to do to have a day where nothing happened for 182 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: the first time in my life, and not have any 183 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: guilt about it. It was just the first time I 184 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: really truly was on my own, beautiful. Do you think 185 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: of it as an enjoyable time? Yes, I mean there 186 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: were there was boredom. There was like sort of just 187 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 1: sitting there, maybe an unhealthy amount of alone time or 188 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:52,959 Speaker 1: something like that, But I do I look back at 189 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: it as a very very positive experience to let go 190 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 1: of a lot of things too. I was making it 191 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 1: for myself. I had kind of given up on the 192 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 1: idea of chasing anymore. And of course once you're once 193 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: you're done with chasing, you're arriving given up on that idea. 194 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 1: What would what would your days be like? Like, what 195 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: if you're alone for three months? Yeah, it was I'd 196 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: wake up and probably crack three eggs and some veniceine, 197 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: you know, because we'd do some hunting up there. But 198 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: there's a little TV up there in a DVD player, 199 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 1: so I'd watch a lot of the Northern Exposure and 200 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:37,320 Speaker 1: and strangely it's my favorite like thing, novel, book, show, whatever, 201 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 1: whole time because it was just you know, so there 202 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,199 Speaker 1: might be a day where I only watch DVDs, you know, 203 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 1: and you know, smoke a joint and drink six beers 204 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: for no reason or something. But then then a day 205 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: I would just wake up, go sit on the computer 206 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 1: stool and just be there in it. You know, we're 207 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 1: reworking and mixing and doing that thing on that album. Yeah, 208 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: I wonder if I was thinking about growing up and 209 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 1: the amount of boredom involved in uh, you know, get 210 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: home from school and what are you supposed to do. Yeah, 211 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 1: it's like what do you do? So I'm wondering if 212 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:22,959 Speaker 1: if putting yourself in that state somehow taps into something 213 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: that a lot of people feel more often than they realize. 214 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 1: It's just a real I mean, you did an extreme 215 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 1: thing by by regular standards in our society, but it 216 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 1: took you to a place that's probably not so different 217 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 1: than growing up in the United States, but without having 218 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 1: anybody like get outside, or you do this, or you 219 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 1: do that. Yeah, my parents gave it. My dad and 220 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: this kids gave me a very supportive experience, or supported experience, 221 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: i should say. And it was it was that that 222 00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 1: boredom was like, huh, you spent a lot of time 223 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 1: being busy and overworked, and I just I just recently 224 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: had quit a job at a kitchen that had really 225 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: created new anger and stress in my in my mind 226 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:12,680 Speaker 1: and body. You know, never have I had been that 227 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: stressed or angry or overworked. And and so I think 228 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 1: it was I just sort of looked at as like, well, 229 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:21,079 Speaker 1: I don't know what I'm doing, and I there was 230 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:22,680 Speaker 1: something going on with these songs where I was like, 231 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 1: this is a new thing for me. Just just keep working. 232 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 1: And I think just it was a correct, correct recipe 233 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 1: to be in the right headspace to make the right 234 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: kind of music. Did you do you toured the first album? 235 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 1: Toured the first album pretty a lot, you know, that 236 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: kind of smashed me up a bit, but not completely 237 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 1: smashed me up. And so we were making the second record. 238 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 1: By then, I was using a lot of musicians. You know, 239 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: I grew up playing in the jazz bands and I 240 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: had a nine piece band in high school to all 241 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 1: my friends with horns and everything. So it was a 242 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 1: natural inclination to want to be around more people. But 243 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 1: what naturally happened as I started to share some of 244 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: the load of the songwriting and but also very holding 245 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: on really tight. And I think, and this isn't a 246 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,440 Speaker 1: negative thing, but I think in many ways, I've stepped 247 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: farther and farther and farther back from the chief position 248 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:25,840 Speaker 1: of making the records. And it's funny, after after making this, 249 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:29,680 Speaker 1: these four records, I'm feeling like maybe I returned to 250 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:32,199 Speaker 1: just hanging out on my own for a for a 251 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 1: year or something to get back to that place, because 252 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 1: you know, I so often would grow up play guitar 253 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: and write a song, sit and write write this song 254 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 1: down it. It went from sort of that with the 255 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: first record too, almost none of that with with where 256 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:51,080 Speaker 1: we're at now in the last you know, this this 257 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 1: process this ten years, and so I saw a lot 258 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 1: of a lot of the death of the ego in 259 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 1: a good way and then also being lost because at 260 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:05,319 Speaker 1: times because I didn't have that connection to like what 261 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: I knew was right when I was all by myself 262 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:09,200 Speaker 1: what I knew, what I didn't have to answer to 263 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: or you know, like I didn't have Chris like man, 264 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: that sucks or that's really great, either one or problematic 265 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 1: answers for me sometimes when you're when you're drifted farther 266 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: aback away from your your frontal igo. And so you know, 267 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 1: I see that, I see that happening in the last 268 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: ten years, that arc of sort of stepping back, getting 269 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 1: the music bigger and experimenting more and more. I'm feeling, like, 270 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 1: you know, I can't predict what the next year is 271 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: going to be like, but I'm feeling like a little 272 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 1: bit of a return to that interesting that that place 273 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: that's coming up kind of is the hunting Lodge still there. 274 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 1: It is better than ever. I get along with my dad, 275 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 1: so well, but I don't think it's it would be 276 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 1: the same situation. He's he's built a big barn, he's 277 00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: got a sawmill, and he's got like four hundred maple 278 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 1: trees tapped up there, and so he's always got people around. 279 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 1: And plus we've sort of we've sort of made April 280 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 1: Base into into that zone, even though we're not quite 281 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: I don't quite have my own room yet. We're working 282 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 1: on that, but that's in the next year or so. 283 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. After the break. We're back with 284 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: more from Bony Vair. There's a million things to ask 285 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 1: you about the past, but for a moment, how how 286 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: do songs typically start? Would you say your do you jam? 287 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: There's some improvisation in you know, studio setting, like maybe 288 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: not like instruments and stuff, but maybe some drum machines 289 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 1: and just looking for odd recipes that could create something 290 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 1: very surprising. It's probably our favorite thing to do, doing 291 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: some just playing in general. I grew up writing a 292 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: lot of songs and guitar and it sort of just 293 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 1: stopped happening that way, and I've been playing a lot 294 00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: more guitar lately, and songs are trickling out, But there's 295 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 1: still this thing I think is I've developed more as 296 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: a singer than maybe I was before, or where I 297 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 1: really started to hone in on the voice part of it, 298 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: I think I became less. It became less important for 299 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 1: me to write the song and be this songwriter person 300 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: and more like how do we how do I get 301 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 1: my voice on something that sounds interesting to my voice, 302 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: if you will, And so a lot of we do 303 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: a lot of improvisation or budding two things together, like 304 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 1: have a saxophone go through a harmonizer while I'm playing 305 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 1: it and singing it, or just looking for things to 306 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 1: clash or to make something that sounded brand new so 307 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 1: that it would be exciting to sing on. That's been 308 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: the main process, you know. And every once in a while, 309 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 1: maybe just a guitar riff would would PLoP in and 310 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 1: create a song in and of itself. But I'd say 311 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: that's been our biggest way of doing it, is just 312 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 1: looking for moments that that seem magical. Yeah, and it 313 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 1: sounds like mainly musical moments. So you'll be working on 314 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: track ideas essentially with the idea does it start with 315 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 1: that feeling of this is interesting, or does it start 316 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 1: with this is interesting I have I can see what 317 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 1: I would do on top both. I mean every every 318 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: time is different. Every time it's different, and sometimes just 319 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: something sounds good so you want to keep it around, 320 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:26,679 Speaker 1: but you're like, well, this isn't really going to be 321 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,719 Speaker 1: for this project, So we don't know what to do 322 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 1: with those ones. Exactly. Like the two generally for us 323 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 1: go go hand in hand. It's like when we hear 324 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 1: something that we've somehow come up with that sounds really interesting, 325 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: justin immediately wants to sing on it, and that's like, Okay, 326 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,120 Speaker 1: we're we're into something here. That's kind of the biggest 327 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: giveaway that we're onto something. Yeah, I might like a 328 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 1: lot of things. Again, if I don't have anything to 329 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:55,159 Speaker 1: sing on it, it's sort of like, well maybe we 330 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 1: should give this to someone else. Yeah, And like and 331 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: like whenever you try and get him to sing on something, 332 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:02,679 Speaker 1: it's like not a good not a good vibe. I mean, 333 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:06,880 Speaker 1: it's very, it comes very, it's it springs forth. Yeah. Absolutely, 334 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: when it's there, it's there, and when it's not, it's 335 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 1: really not. I think with the with the previous record 336 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: twenty two million, we did a lot more jamming. I 337 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 1: mean great. Granted it was over like a period of 338 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 1: five years that we were writing that record or something, 339 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:22,679 Speaker 1: but there were some pretty extensive, long multi person jams 340 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:24,679 Speaker 1: that would happen that we got some stuff out of. 341 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 1: But that was kind of a way where Justin I 342 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:29,879 Speaker 1: think was maybe struggling with with trying to get his 343 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 1: songwriting going again. That was a way for us to 344 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 1: do it. It was bringing a lot of people, make 345 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 1: as much noise as we can for a long period 346 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,120 Speaker 1: of time and see what happens. See if there's any 347 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: moments that pop three you can that you could then 348 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 1: like hey what about that? Let's go focus right and 349 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:46,360 Speaker 1: then that little moment that happened, either use it directly 350 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: usually that's what we do, Use that moment directly and 351 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:52,439 Speaker 1: shape around it and like you know. But this this 352 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:56,920 Speaker 1: album was definitely a lot more there's more playing. We 353 00:18:57,280 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 1: entered with a lot more intention on a number of 354 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 1: levels with this, this record, the newest record, and more 355 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: of the touring band than ever before too, yep, which 356 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:13,399 Speaker 1: was a great, great addition. Yeah, But I think sonically 357 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: we I think we've kind of quietly made an active 358 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: choice to not mess with his voice as much as 359 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:21,199 Speaker 1: we had previously. We knew I think that we were 360 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: going to focus on the lyric content more than we 361 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 1: ever have. Not that we weren't saying something before or 362 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: Justin wasn't saying something, is that we wanted it to 363 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: be heard and we wanted it to be maybe clearer 364 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:35,399 Speaker 1: than it ever had been. And so I think with 365 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:37,919 Speaker 1: those may have been the two most like sort of 366 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:43,360 Speaker 1: unspoken decisions for this record, but we were all aligned 367 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 1: on that and everything else just came so much easier. Yeah, 368 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 1: it was so much more, I don't know, just free 369 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 1: and easy. It was great. Nice. Yeah, maybe that'll be 370 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: it's it sounds like that can be going forward. It 371 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 1: sounds like there's that could be our job. Yeah. I 372 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 1: think it was a huge realization with with this, with 373 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 1: finishing this record as not as quickly but so much 374 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 1: faster than the previous one. Yes, that we were just like, oh, 375 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 1: this is what it can be all the time. Brad, 376 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 1: Brad Cook and I talked about I mean all three 377 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 1: of us did, but yeah, Brad and I talked about 378 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 1: that a lot of just like this is what we 379 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 1: can make it. Every time there was a breakthrough, Yeah, 380 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 1: this is all we got to do. Every time, it's great. 381 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:23,440 Speaker 1: Did you record many more than the songs that are 382 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:25,440 Speaker 1: on the album or the songs on the album? Pretty much? It? 383 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: That's pretty much it is? It usually that way? Yeah, 384 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 1: I think we pretty pretty early on know whether something's 385 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:34,719 Speaker 1: going to get chased down further or not. So we 386 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 1: still have like fragments that will probably revisit in a 387 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:40,360 Speaker 1: year or something. But I don't know. Yeah, I'm not sure. 388 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 1: I'm not I don't have this feeling like there's like 389 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:46,200 Speaker 1: great songs waiting for us. We sort of like worked 390 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:50,679 Speaker 1: on what we worked on. What was the thought on 391 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:54,920 Speaker 1: the title? By the way, man, it's it's it's really 392 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,919 Speaker 1: a lot about this whole self care and caring about 393 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 1: your friend thing. It's to me, it's that's the thing 394 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 1: that Bob Marley introduced me to when I was a kid. 395 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 1: Is this I and I? It's I and I, it's we, 396 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 1: you are me, I am you? Uh. This is all 397 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:15,360 Speaker 1: of us kind of thing together, this this sort of 398 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:19,479 Speaker 1: responsibility to one another, maybe responsibilities and even strong enough 399 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:21,879 Speaker 1: a word, it's like we are connected. It's not just 400 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 1: like we choose to be or not when we hurt ourselves. 401 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: I feel like it has a reaction to others, and 402 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 1: so that that was my whole thing is just like 403 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: Marley vibes Rastafarian vibes, like it's uh, we are responsible 404 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: for one another. It is a line that no, no 405 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:42,880 Speaker 1: branches of a tree are so foolish that they would 406 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 1: fight with another branch on the tree. Yeah, exactly exactly. 407 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,399 Speaker 1: So it started guitar and vocal, guitar, vocal and the 408 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 1: ensemble all at once. And then when when did the 409 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: lyrics come in the process of writing, Like, I think 410 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,199 Speaker 1: I had this guitar riff laying around for like years, 411 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:04,639 Speaker 1: and it was always just I thought that this was 412 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:08,200 Speaker 1: half a love. I thought that this was half a love. Uh, 413 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 1: follow to the Raging Sea. That's all it ever was. 414 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: And so Brad was just like, why don't you just 415 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: consider that's a that's a song you can have. You 416 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 1: can have a three two line song. So accepted that, 417 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 1: and she's like, oh I love this, Okay, great, Yeah, yeah, 418 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 1: that's kind of the story with that one. It's just like, 419 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: sometimes it's enough just to have a small little idea absolutely, yeah, yeah, 420 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: sometimes it's all it wants to be. Yeah, if you 421 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,920 Speaker 1: try to force it, you're what what are you doing cool? 422 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 1: Pick another one? Or do you want to see the list? Oh? Sure, 423 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 1: let me think here? Sure? Can you see it? I 424 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 1: can't see it. It's probably pretty good. I don't know. 425 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 1: Man man like you's pretty good? I like, man like here, 426 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 1: let's try that one. The big story with this one 427 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: is that Bruce Hornsby. It's Bruce Bruce's track Lately he 428 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 1: just wrote. He just had He came up we were 429 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,119 Speaker 1: helping him with his record and he just had this 430 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:14,879 Speaker 1: piano figure. He had it on a burned CD. He 431 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: brought over and was like, what is that play? Yeah? 432 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:18,959 Speaker 1: I was like, first of all, we have to buy 433 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:23,440 Speaker 1: a CD player now, But he just played a bunch 434 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 1: of this kind of music that he'd been working on. 435 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 1: I was like, what is that track doing? Because it 436 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: was one of those moments where I was like I 437 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:33,399 Speaker 1: almost heard the entire melody, just like I went in 438 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 1: there and just like it was just there. And had 439 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 1: I not been a little more open and like not 440 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 1: so like I better be the guy to write all 441 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 1: these songs, I might not have had that feeling. But 442 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:46,160 Speaker 1: it felt so good just to jump on and it's 443 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:47,879 Speaker 1: just a mood that I couldn't have come up with 444 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 1: It feels so fun to to sing on me and 445 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 1: Brad did so much bass playing on the album. You 446 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,159 Speaker 1: know he's he's predominantly a bass player. I'm kind of 447 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: a cute bass player, acute, acute and cute. But so 448 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 1: we do a lot of playing bass in the album 449 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 1: where I would play it and then he'd be like, 450 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 1: I can do better, and then I can be like, oh, 451 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 1: I liked what you did there, but I would kick 452 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: your So we did a lot of that on the 453 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,959 Speaker 1: on the album. I don't know. I haven't heard these 454 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 1: I haven't heard the jam since we actually have played 455 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: all these shows. It's kind of interesting. How do they 456 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 1: transform live? They have transformed a lot live. You know 457 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 1: that our band is awesome. I just love playing with 458 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:40,400 Speaker 1: each other. They ultimately feel more alive. I mean liter 459 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:44,120 Speaker 1: literally living, and I love I like records that have scrapes, 460 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 1: and you know they don't. I like records that sound 461 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 1: very high fi as well. But with our records, I've 462 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,119 Speaker 1: sort of always tried to keep it a little dusty 463 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 1: or a little got some knicks and knicks in there. 464 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 1: How many people are in the band live now? It's 465 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 1: six now, and we've we've waxed and weighed on that 466 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 1: we've had. Last year, we had like five trombone dudes 467 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: from Richmond, Virginia traveling with us. Uh, what do we 468 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:17,159 Speaker 1: call them? Bone trombone paradise. Trombone paradise, that's right. But 469 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 1: now it's a lot of the same dudes that have 470 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:22,399 Speaker 1: been in there a really long time. And then we 471 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,359 Speaker 1: added this lady, Jen Wasner who has his band Why Oak, 472 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:30,359 Speaker 1: and she is a monster, having another high voice, a 473 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:35,159 Speaker 1: higher voice, and she's also a crushing profit player as 474 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 1: guitar player and bass player as well. So it's been 475 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,159 Speaker 1: it's been really fun. And the songs they just they 476 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,200 Speaker 1: just live and breathe. You're playing him rather than like 477 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 1: pressing play on him, you know what I mean. I 478 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: think we're staying truer to the record with the most 479 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 1: recent songs than we did with twenty two million. I 480 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 1: mean those really we tried to those took on a 481 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:58,399 Speaker 1: whole new life live it's that are it's great. But 482 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: I think with these, yeah, they they definitely even breathe, 483 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 1: but we're we're staying closer to the record. It also 484 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:05,200 Speaker 1: makes sense that you said there's more playing on the 485 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,680 Speaker 1: record too, so it's makes sense to same people played 486 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:10,440 Speaker 1: it on the record and now I'm playing it live. 487 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 1: It's makes sense. Yeah, absolutely, not interpolating. Yeah, the picking 488 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 1: and choosing with only having six people is like, okay, 489 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 1: well you we can't We're just physically can't play that 490 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 1: part because we don't we don't have any tracks or 491 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,920 Speaker 1: anything like that. Yeah, So making those choices is always 492 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 1: like Okay, what's the most essential moment or can you 493 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: play this one moment on guitar, but then do the 494 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 1: rest of it over here? You know, making those choices 495 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,399 Speaker 1: has been really fun, I think this time. Yeah, I 496 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,919 Speaker 1: don't know what else to play? What else is hard 497 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 1: to play? Rick Rubin your record man. When we come back, 498 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 1: justin Vernon talks to Rick about some of his favorite music. 499 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 1: We're back with more from Bony Vair. What would you 500 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:03,440 Speaker 1: say is the most fun part of the entire process 501 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: in this band or the project? What's your favorite part 502 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:13,440 Speaker 1: of it? It's a great question. Lately, it's been, if 503 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 1: not all the whole time is when we have a 504 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 1: piece of music that we can play, that that drifts, 505 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 1: that is really alive, that we don't have to follow 506 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 1: follow the grid, or we don't use to click tracks 507 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:33,880 Speaker 1: or tracks really, but especially you know, there's a couple 508 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,400 Speaker 1: of songs that we're playing live now from this record 509 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 1: where it's like, wow, we're really it's really a push 510 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 1: and pull thing. There's really a lot of group improvisation 511 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 1: going on, group listening, group reacting, And I really enjoy 512 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 1: that because in one hand, I've got this feeling like 513 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: I love a song, I love a good folks so 514 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 1: on that lets you know kind of who he is 515 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: right away. But I also love Coltrane and you know 516 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: music that that just makes you feel strange. I like 517 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,879 Speaker 1: the combination of those two comforts, the feeling strange and 518 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,919 Speaker 1: the feeling comfortable. And what do you listen to? Mostly? 519 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 1: I mean I bounce around a lot. I do listen everything. 520 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 1: We grew up. I grew up listening and studying jazz 521 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,920 Speaker 1: in school and stuff, and so I was just exposed 522 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 1: to a lot. My parents are musical folks, and so 523 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 1: what would be the music like growing up in the house? 524 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 1: What would your parents play? John Prin was probably number one, 525 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 1: And a matter of fact, he's probably like the He's 526 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 1: the backbone of our spiritual philosophy as a family. I 527 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 1: guess I would say that that that was the he 528 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 1: was the main one. I think you could distill all 529 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 1: other listening visa v. John Prian, And do you did 530 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 1: you extend from John Prine into others like in the 531 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 1: singer songwriter world? Was that? Yeah? Dylan came pretty pretty 532 00:28:55,240 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 1: close after and still still very central you know, my 533 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 1: understanding of the of the craft of like writing a 534 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 1: song on the guitar, you know, with that whole tradition. 535 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 1: So in both cases, would it be a lyric centric 536 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 1: draw started out that way? I think I think once 537 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 1: when I saw how complete a song could be with 538 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: such little lyricism, when I when I with John Prine, 539 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 1: especially you know, compared to Dylan or something. But kind 540 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 1: of right after that, I always liked a good lyric 541 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: But it's you know, that would have been when I 542 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: was like, you know, eleven twelve, when I actually get 543 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 1: my own discman and listen to John Prine on my 544 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: own you know. So did you start writing songs as 545 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 1: a kid? I did, Yeah, write it, Like when I 546 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 1: was twelve or thirteen. I'd write little songs about like 547 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 1: my friends at camp or stuff like that. It's just 548 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 1: something that came pretty naturally to me. Would you call 549 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: them like it, would you call them folk songs? Yeah? 550 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 1: I don't know. I think I was probably listening to 551 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: like pro jam and Nirvana, so I was probably just like, oh, 552 00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: these are just songs, man, I don't know what I 553 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 1: was things. And actually, if you would describe them now, 554 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 1: what would you say they would rooted in? Would they 555 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 1: be like a pearl jam song played on acoustic guitar? Yeah, 556 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 1: I think they're probably they're probably the early days, more prime, 557 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: more just three chords in the truth kind of situation. 558 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 1: But then shortly, you know, then eventually you get into 559 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 1: alternate tunings, and then you're listening to Joni Mitchell and 560 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 1: then it gets a little farther out. Who would you 561 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 1: say would be the singers that inspire you or there's 562 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 1: always three? I think of my first favorite was was 563 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 1: Amy Ray from Indigo Girls. She had this there's this 564 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 1: folk thing going on in that their group and songwriting, 565 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 1: but she was yelling a lot, and like, there's this 566 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 1: fever that was just so connected to her spirit and 567 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: what she was trying to communicate in her songs. Was 568 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 1: she still communicating in her songs and that that sort 569 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 1: of unbridled yelling and and sort of like this when 570 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: you lose it, Can you think of a good example, 571 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 1: because I'd love to hear I can. I can pull 572 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 1: it up for you and you can look. Oh yeah, 573 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 1: my favorite song of all time is called Fugitive. That's 574 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: like my number one song. That's the Indigo Girls and 575 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: maybe maybe that's not her yelling, but she's definitely like 576 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 1: pushing her voice and it's yeah cool, it's my number 577 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 1: my number one favorite song of all time. They played 578 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: that in Missoula, right, I mean I literally had to 579 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: sit down. It's true, you stumbling back to You're just 580 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 1: like I can't believe this just happen. Yeah, this is 581 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 1: my favorite song, my favorite album. I think when I 582 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 1: was twelve, like my mom and sister got me into them, 583 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 1: and I think I was like, so, mom, they're they're gay, 584 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: you know, like and then just realizing they have all 585 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: these problems because of that, and like, Okay, for some reason, 586 00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 1: I was just like, well, this is wrong that they 587 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 1: have issues, you know, like I don't understand. And then 588 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 1: that gave me more and I adored them more and 589 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 1: more and more. The more they had strength in the 590 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 1: face of their adversity and that but they never became bitter, 591 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 1: they would have feelings about it. I don't know, they're 592 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 1: just they're they're my favorite group ever. Uh and Emily's 593 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 1: the harmony, the other singer. She writes other other songs too. 594 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 1: I mean, they're both just together. It's it's like my 595 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 1: favorite ship. But Donnie Hathaway and Bonnie Raid are probably 596 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 1: my other two, just like as far as soul. Yeah, 597 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 1: the thing that moved me most was after the first 598 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 1: sort of rocking part, it drops down into a very 599 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 1: into unexpected intimate moment just for a moment. Yeah, but 600 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 1: it got real. Yeah, got really really got real. Yeah, 601 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 1: and it's good feeling. Yeah, that's the feeling, man, that's 602 00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 1: the feeling Like I mean, I tattooed those lyrics on 603 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: my chat for a reason. It's like, this is what 604 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 1: I want to be carrying around it. That's the feeling 605 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 1: when you whce. We get to that verse, you're like 606 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 1: you're exposed from all this yelling and this guitar sol 607 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 1: and this orchestration, and then it all goes away. You're 608 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 1: just back to this place where it's like we need 609 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 1: to we learn, need to learn how to respect what 610 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 1: we don't understand. We are fortunate ones. We are fortunate ones, 611 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,800 Speaker 1: I swear. It's just like the best thing you can say. 612 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 1: It's like we don't know anything, and we have to 613 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 1: try to learn and we have to understand that how 614 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 1: lucky we are. Beautiful. That's that's that's why it's my 615 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 1: favorite song. But yeah, it's it's a displaying intimacy and 616 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 1: and vulnerability is a really important part of communicating as 617 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 1: a human being, and it is a musician or songwriter. 618 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 1: It's like you have to be able to be like, 619 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,719 Speaker 1: yes I am I feel awful or yes I am scared. 620 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:53,960 Speaker 1: You know. I think those are such valuable things in 621 00:33:54,080 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 1: our valuable assets to ourselves. The vulnerability. You know, it's beautiful. 622 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:08,400 Speaker 1: That was justin Vernon bony Beare and his producer Chrismasina 623 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,480 Speaker 1: in conversation with Rick Rubin from Shangelos Studios in Maladu. 624 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:14,759 Speaker 1: The new record I Comma is up per Album of 625 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 1: the Year at the Grammys. You can stream it using 626 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,400 Speaker 1: the Spotify playlist we put together for this episode at 627 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 1: Broken record podcast dot com. You can also sign up 628 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 1: for a behind the scenes newsletter while you're there. Enough. 629 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,080 Speaker 1: Broken Record is produced with help from Jason Gambrell, Meo 630 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 1: La Belle, and Leo Rose. Our theme music is by 631 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,680 Speaker 1: Kenny Beats. Stay tuned for next week's episodes. Brittany Howard 632 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,840 Speaker 1: and Andre three thousand, thanks for listening.