1
00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:06,720
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.

2
00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:07,480
Speaker 2: Welcome to stefone.

3
00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:19,279
Speaker 3: Never told you a productive I Heeart Radio, and once

4
00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:23,680
Speaker 3: again we are so happy to be joined by the curious,

5
00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:25,240
Speaker 3: the charming Bridget Todd.

6
00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:26,880
Speaker 2: Welcome, Bridget.

7
00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:31,120
Speaker 4: Thanks for having me. I appreciate the c adjective theme.

8
00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:32,559
Speaker 4: Thanks for having me.

9
00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:36,120
Speaker 2: Yes, thank you, thank you so much for being here.

10
00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:40,320
Speaker 3: We were talking a little bit before we started recording.

11
00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:43,800
Speaker 3: But I guess here comes a loaded question. How are

12
00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:44,839
Speaker 3: you doing, Bridget?

13
00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:49,040
Speaker 4: Oh, I'll just say I've been better for folks who

14
00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:52,000
Speaker 4: don't know. I live in Washington, d C. Which you

15
00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:56,840
Speaker 4: might know is a crime infested hellhole. No, just kidding.

16
00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,960
Speaker 4: It's actually a lovely place to live. But President Trump

17
00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:06,360
Speaker 4: has taken over our city's police force and has unleashed

18
00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:09,480
Speaker 4: the National Guard and with federal agents into the city.

19
00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:12,480
Speaker 4: When this first happened, for whatever reason, it was centralized

20
00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:17,760
Speaker 4: right on my street, which wasn't my favorite. It still

21
00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:23,440
Speaker 4: persists every day is a new surprise I guess that

22
00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,120
Speaker 4: he has in store for us. If people are listening,

23
00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:29,320
Speaker 4: are following what's going on in DC, one of the

24
00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:31,200
Speaker 4: biggest I mean, I'll get on my soapbox right now.

25
00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:33,640
Speaker 4: The reason why it's happening in DC. It's because DC

26
00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:36,760
Speaker 4: is not a state. DC has what's called home rule,

27
00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:40,800
Speaker 4: so we we have some ability to make decisions for

28
00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:43,240
Speaker 4: ourselves and sort of for like our local leaders are

29
00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:45,920
Speaker 4: able to make some decisions for us. But everything that

30
00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:49,080
Speaker 4: happens in DC is at the pleasure of the President

31
00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:51,560
Speaker 4: and Congress because DC is not a state. And so

32
00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,240
Speaker 4: the reason why Trump can send not just the National

33
00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:59,360
Speaker 4: Guard to DC but also take over our police force

34
00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:02,520
Speaker 4: is because DC is not a state, and so advocate

35
00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:05,040
Speaker 4: for statehood for DC. The only reason why this is

36
00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:07,920
Speaker 4: happening in DC in no other place in terms of

37
00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:10,920
Speaker 4: our police force being taken over by Trump, is because

38
00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:13,239
Speaker 4: DC is not a state. So advocate for DC statehood.

39
00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:16,400
Speaker 4: DC statehood. Now I don't have an elective official that

40
00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:19,800
Speaker 4: I can call about this call for me and advocate

41
00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:21,880
Speaker 4: for the full self determination of the people of the

42
00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:22,800
Speaker 4: District of Columbia.

43
00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:23,880
Speaker 5: That's my soapbox.

44
00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:29,080
Speaker 2: It was a good one. Thank you, yes, yes, thank you,

45
00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:34,799
Speaker 2: and I'm we're both so glad you're okay and good

46
00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:35,919
Speaker 2: to have you. As always.

47
00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:40,040
Speaker 3: Even if the topic you're discussing is a pretty is pretty,

48
00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:43,639
Speaker 3: it's one that makes me very angry, and actually this

49
00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:44,639
Speaker 3: is a sad state.

50
00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:45,680
Speaker 2: Of affairs that we live in.

51
00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:49,440
Speaker 3: But as I was discussing before we started recording, I'm

52
00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:53,320
Speaker 3: going to this big event, dragon Con this weekend, and

53
00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:55,840
Speaker 3: every year I go, I think I might die in

54
00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:59,960
Speaker 3: a mass shooting. Oh, because that's just the world we

55
00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,800
Speaker 3: live in. And part of what you're talking about here

56
00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:10,760
Speaker 3: is it's awful enough that that happens, But it's also

57
00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:15,920
Speaker 3: awful enough that so many people in power are so

58
00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:19,920
Speaker 3: quick to blame somebody else, anybody else, other than what

59
00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:23,560
Speaker 3: is actually happening and what we could actually do to

60
00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:24,679
Speaker 3: prevent things like this.

61
00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:27,320
Speaker 5: Oh my god, Annie, you and me both.

62
00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:29,720
Speaker 4: If I am in any kind of a big event,

63
00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:31,920
Speaker 4: people who know me in real life know I can't

64
00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:34,840
Speaker 4: get comfortable until I'm like, Okay, exit there, exit there,

65
00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:37,480
Speaker 4: exit there, Like I need to know where the exits are.

66
00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:39,680
Speaker 5: It is. I'm not comfortable until I do that.

67
00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:43,240
Speaker 4: And as you said, I mean in this country, I mean,

68
00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:45,000
Speaker 4: I hate to say it, it feels like we have

69
00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:48,600
Speaker 4: just decided we're not going to do anything about the

70
00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:53,960
Speaker 4: real cause of mass shootings, which is the guns. Right,

71
00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,800
Speaker 4: So then we have to start scapegoating things and trying

72
00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,840
Speaker 4: to blame these issues that are non issues on what

73
00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:04,800
Speaker 4: we have shootings, and unfortunately, in today's internet landscape, that

74
00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:08,200
Speaker 4: thing is the existence of trans people. I know what

75
00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:11,880
Speaker 4: you're thinking, I don't know how trans people are linked

76
00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,600
Speaker 4: to mass shootings. Well, you would be right, because they're

77
00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:16,920
Speaker 4: not linked to mass shootings. But that does not keep

78
00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:20,719
Speaker 4: trans people from being baselessly blamed for any kind of

79
00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:25,800
Speaker 4: mass shooting, mass tragedy, or mass instance of violence or

80
00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:30,560
Speaker 4: bad thing happening by very loud voices online.

81
00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:35,719
Speaker 2: Yes, and this has happened several times. Correct.

82
00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:39,520
Speaker 4: Yes, it is a constant thing, and it's a kind

83
00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:42,479
Speaker 4: of identity based disinformation that I see over and over

84
00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,240
Speaker 4: and over again. I would be willing to bet that

85
00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:48,840
Speaker 4: folks listening have probably actually seen this play out at

86
00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:50,839
Speaker 4: one time or another. If you spend any time online,

87
00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:54,400
Speaker 4: there is this image of someone with blonde, shaggy hair

88
00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:58,599
Speaker 4: holding a rifle that often circulates online that claims to

89
00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,560
Speaker 4: show the perpetrator who Commenters will say, oh, this is

90
00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:05,200
Speaker 4: a trans person who was mentally disturbed and they're the perpetrator,

91
00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:09,200
Speaker 4: But it's actually a very well worn image of Sam Hyde,

92
00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:13,000
Speaker 4: who is not trans and is actually an extremist, comedian

93
00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,559
Speaker 4: and YouTuber. In Fact, in twenty twenty three, fact checker

94
00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:19,359
Speaker 4: and journalist Bill McCarthy described that when he sees a

95
00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,240
Speaker 4: mass shooting, his heart doesn't just sink for the victims

96
00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:25,400
Speaker 4: and their families and communities. His heart also sinks because

97
00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:27,640
Speaker 4: he knows, just from doing it for a long time,

98
00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:30,920
Speaker 4: that it means that other people who are not involved

99
00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,640
Speaker 4: will be baselessly and falsely accused of being the killer.

100
00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:38,200
Speaker 4: They're pictures shared all over the web by social media users.

101
00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,200
Speaker 4: In a piece called mass Shootings, the Other Innocent Victims,

102
00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,279
Speaker 4: he sheds light on this where he talks about a

103
00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:48,080
Speaker 4: mass shooting happening in Nashville where Hide was misidentified as

104
00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:52,200
Speaker 4: both trans and the perpetrator. He writes, shortly after police

105
00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:54,160
Speaker 4: says that they had responded to a shooting, I opened

106
00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:58,000
Speaker 4: Twitter and ran a simple keyword search Nashville shooter identified.

107
00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:01,400
Speaker 4: According to dozens of results, the city officials had already

108
00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:03,920
Speaker 4: singled out the perpetrator. It was a transgender woman named

109
00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:08,600
Speaker 4: Samantha Hyde. The post claimed, So this again, like, if

110
00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:12,240
Speaker 4: you spend any time at all online when there's some

111
00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:15,800
Speaker 4: sort of mass instance of violence, this image of Hide

112
00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:18,280
Speaker 4: is probably you can probably picture it like I can

113
00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:18,680
Speaker 4: picture it.

114
00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:20,040
Speaker 5: I see it every single time.

115
00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:24,520
Speaker 4: And you know, this person is very familiar to fact

116
00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:27,320
Speaker 4: checkers at this point because of all the different variations

117
00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:29,960
Speaker 4: of an image of this person showing up. But it's

118
00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:33,640
Speaker 4: been this long running hoax that initially originated on four

119
00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:35,320
Speaker 4: Chan as kind of like a meme.

120
00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:38,800
Speaker 2: Oh I do not like that.

121
00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:41,799
Speaker 3: And the thing is it has such a trickle down

122
00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:47,960
Speaker 3: impact of because I'm not hugely online, but I am.

123
00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:49,400
Speaker 2: I'm aware of all of.

124
00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:54,320
Speaker 3: This through like news in quotes, I guess news sources,

125
00:06:55,160 --> 00:07:00,800
Speaker 3: and it has horrible impacts on the people who were

126
00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:04,080
Speaker 3: not involved at all.

127
00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:08,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, So it's it's really not just Nashville. In the

128
00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:12,920
Speaker 4: shooting in Texas, a photo of an actual trans woman

129
00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:15,200
Speaker 4: named Sam, a different Sam than the one I was

130
00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:17,880
Speaker 4: just talking about, circulated on social media claiming that she

131
00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,720
Speaker 4: was the perpetrator. She actually had to post a picture

132
00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:23,240
Speaker 4: showing that she was alive and well, because as we

133
00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:25,560
Speaker 4: know that that shooter was killed by police, right, and

134
00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:29,520
Speaker 4: so I mean, just imagine not being involved in a

135
00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:32,120
Speaker 4: shooting that that that trans woman Sam was like, I

136
00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:34,320
Speaker 4: don't even I don't even live in Nashville, right, and

137
00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:37,600
Speaker 4: so just imagine having to prove to people online that

138
00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:39,560
Speaker 4: you were not involved in something that you had nothing

139
00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:41,560
Speaker 4: to do with. None of these people were actually the

140
00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,640
Speaker 4: perpetrators or even connected to the to the incident at all.

141
00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:47,520
Speaker 4: But that does not stop these claims from going viral

142
00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:52,360
Speaker 4: and harming innocent, actual trans people and then furthermore kind

143
00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:56,600
Speaker 4: of creating this false impression that trans people are violent

144
00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,760
Speaker 4: or dangerous, just based on nothing like the facts very

145
00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,000
Speaker 4: really do not back that up. And so the way

146
00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:07,520
Speaker 4: that people are able to scapegoat and fear monger around

147
00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:10,480
Speaker 4: just the existence of trans people and then somehow link

148
00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,680
Speaker 4: it to violence is really it's not just it's not

149
00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:17,160
Speaker 4: just harmful for the trans people who are targeted, it's

150
00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:21,400
Speaker 4: harmful for everybody. Like, it's just a very harmful, dangerous climate.

151
00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:23,480
Speaker 2: Yes, and.

152
00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:27,480
Speaker 3: You know, when we have these narratives around trans people

153
00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:30,120
Speaker 3: in our politics that are so painting them in such

154
00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:34,560
Speaker 3: a way as if they're all pedophiles or something like,

155
00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:38,280
Speaker 3: it's just ridiculous. These attacks are horrible, they're not backed

156
00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:42,960
Speaker 3: up by facts, and it's we know the trans community

157
00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:47,400
Speaker 3: faces so much violence and this only makes it worse.

158
00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:54,000
Speaker 3: And you have an incident that happened kind of near

159
00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:57,120
Speaker 3: you where we saw this play out right?

160
00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:01,960
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, so this brings me to you. This horrible

161
00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,880
Speaker 4: plane crash that happened earlier this year. There was a

162
00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:08,640
Speaker 4: great piece about this incident and Wired called a transpilot

163
00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:11,079
Speaker 4: was falsely blamed for a plane crash. Now she's fighting

164
00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:14,160
Speaker 4: the right wing disinformation machine that was published earlier this

165
00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:16,320
Speaker 4: summer that really sheds light on this issue.

166
00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:17,520
Speaker 5: So I wanted to shout them out.

167
00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:20,720
Speaker 4: So back in January, there was a deadly plane crash

168
00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:24,000
Speaker 4: where I live here in DC, where a helicopter crashed

169
00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:27,320
Speaker 4: into a plane. Both of them landed in the Potomac River,

170
00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:30,800
Speaker 4: and sixty seven people died. It was a hard way

171
00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:32,680
Speaker 4: to start out the new year, and it just was

172
00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:37,600
Speaker 4: a really dark time here in DC. However, it also

173
00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:40,640
Speaker 4: became very dark for this woman, Joe Ellis, who is

174
00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:45,200
Speaker 4: a transgender National Guard pilot who was falsely blamed for

175
00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:50,480
Speaker 4: causing this crash. Now, to be super duper clear, Ellis

176
00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:54,240
Speaker 4: was not involved in this crash in any capacity whatsoever,

177
00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:58,520
Speaker 4: just was not involved. However, days before the crash happened,

178
00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:01,440
Speaker 4: she had published this pretty good essay about what it's

179
00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:05,000
Speaker 4: like being a transgender pilot. That alone was enough for

180
00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:07,640
Speaker 4: right wing influencers, some of which you have millions of

181
00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:11,360
Speaker 4: followers across the Internet, to baselessly accuse her of being

182
00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,360
Speaker 4: responsible for this crash. So in the days leading up

183
00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:17,480
Speaker 4: to this crash, she wrote this piece called Living to Serve,

184
00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:21,360
Speaker 4: Living as Myself a transgender service members Perspective, where she

185
00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:24,160
Speaker 4: describes growing up in a family of service members and

186
00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:26,080
Speaker 4: joining the Virginia Army National Guard in two.

187
00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:26,600
Speaker 5: Thousand and nine.

188
00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:29,320
Speaker 4: In her piece, she described sending an email to her

189
00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:31,520
Speaker 4: command and giving them notice that she intended to start

190
00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:36,240
Speaker 4: transitioning under the then current in service transition policy, and

191
00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:38,559
Speaker 4: she says she was met with a lot of support

192
00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:41,800
Speaker 4: from her team. It's clear in the piece that she's

193
00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:43,760
Speaker 4: trying to sort of push back on some of these

194
00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:47,640
Speaker 4: well worn myths about how trans people get all this

195
00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,560
Speaker 4: free stuff and that you know they're just you just

196
00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:54,080
Speaker 4: join the military and the government pay for everything. She

197
00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:56,640
Speaker 4: actually describes paying out of pocket for all of her

198
00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:00,560
Speaker 4: trans related care. So after her piece was published, just

199
00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:04,240
Speaker 4: days later the crash happened. She describes waking up to

200
00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:07,240
Speaker 4: a friend warning her that she had been named online

201
00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:09,920
Speaker 4: as the pilot who killed all of these innocent passengers

202
00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,800
Speaker 4: in this deadly crash. At first, she's thinking, Oh, this

203
00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:16,800
Speaker 4: is just some weird, isolated claim. Somebody must have mistakenly

204
00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:19,640
Speaker 4: connected me to the crash because of this essay I

205
00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:22,360
Speaker 4: describe being from Virginia. This happened really close to Virginia.

206
00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:25,000
Speaker 4: She's like, Oh, just a mistake. Then she gets on

207
00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:29,199
Speaker 4: Facebook and she sees lots of messages both from friends

208
00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:30,439
Speaker 4: basically being like.

209
00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:31,880
Speaker 5: Are you alive orre you okay?

210
00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:35,079
Speaker 4: I see that you were involved in this crash, as

211
00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:39,160
Speaker 4: well as hateful, really transphobic messages from people saying that

212
00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,400
Speaker 4: they thought that she had been involved in this crash.

213
00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:45,280
Speaker 5: So again, I can't quite imagine what it.

214
00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,960
Speaker 4: Would be like to go to bed just a normal

215
00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,920
Speaker 4: person and wake up being at the center of this

216
00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:54,520
Speaker 4: horrible tragedy that you weren't even involved in in any capacity.

217
00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:58,360
Speaker 1: You know what I really hate with all of this

218
00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:03,880
Speaker 1: conversation is that that was part of the point. They

219
00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:08,720
Speaker 1: love taking an incident that they know they may have

220
00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:10,959
Speaker 1: some liability in because we know what was happening with

221
00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:13,840
Speaker 1: the Department of Transportation and the FAA. We knew like

222
00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:17,520
Speaker 1: things were happening, and things were slowly like falling apart,

223
00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:20,560
Speaker 1: Like we could see things falling apart before this happened.

224
00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:24,000
Speaker 1: And if they just like with the shooters, any of

225
00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:25,800
Speaker 1: the shooters, when they're like, ooh, this is not going

226
00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,280
Speaker 1: to be good for our side. So what we're gonna do

227
00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:31,200
Speaker 1: is put in as much disinformation and misinformation as we

228
00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:36,280
Speaker 1: can and also give them a villain that we have

229
00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:40,600
Speaker 1: already used to capitalize on traditional families in order to like,

230
00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:43,720
Speaker 1: you know, get our narrative out there. There's so much

231
00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:46,120
Speaker 1: to this, and like it doesn't matter if they're wrong.

232
00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:49,560
Speaker 1: They've got the perfect victim and they've got someone to

233
00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:53,920
Speaker 1: be the villain that that could only help perpetuate their platform.

234
00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:57,320
Speaker 4: Right, You're exactly right, Samantha, And I mean that is

235
00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,720
Speaker 4: exactly what's going on in this case. When initially, like

236
00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:04,400
Speaker 4: I remember the day this crash happened, and I also,

237
00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:06,600
Speaker 4: when I'm not making my podcasts, there are no girls

238
00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:08,520
Speaker 4: on the internet. I also co host a local daily

239
00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:11,840
Speaker 4: news podcast called Citycast DC, so I was reporting on

240
00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:14,600
Speaker 4: this story and I will never forget literally the day

241
00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:19,920
Speaker 4: it happened, you had administration officials essentially blaming DEI. This

242
00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:22,400
Speaker 4: was when we didn't even know what the cause was,

243
00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:26,040
Speaker 4: and so they were so confident getting up on television

244
00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:27,960
Speaker 4: and being like, oh, the problem was DEI. And then

245
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,200
Speaker 4: back in March, the administration spent two point one million

246
00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:34,640
Speaker 4: dollars on an actual official investigation into whether or not

247
00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:39,439
Speaker 4: DEI policies were causing all these recent safety incidents with airlines, right,

248
00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:41,679
Speaker 4: And so it's just I don't think I have to

249
00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:45,480
Speaker 4: tell anybody that there's just no credence to this, like

250
00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,640
Speaker 4: you don't need two point one million dollars to study this.

251
00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:53,040
Speaker 4: But also the way that even before, like I'm not kidding,

252
00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,560
Speaker 4: there were still bodies in the Potomac River when Donald

253
00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,280
Speaker 4: Trump was getting on TV talking about this being because

254
00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,800
Speaker 4: of DEI, And so you're exactly right that they've just

255
00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:08,679
Speaker 4: created this scapegoat that you know, it's horrible for trans

256
00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:13,040
Speaker 4: folks on the trans community, but it's also horrible for

257
00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:19,160
Speaker 4: everybody because when we're trying to somehow pin deadly plane

258
00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:23,800
Speaker 4: crashes on diversity, we're not actually looking at what causes

259
00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:26,400
Speaker 4: the deadly plane crashes. So the planes are less safe

260
00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:28,320
Speaker 4: for all of us because they're like, oh, it's you know,

261
00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,360
Speaker 4: how trans people are always causing plane crashes and then

262
00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:34,680
Speaker 4: the thing that it's actually causing plane crashes is going unexamined,

263
00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:36,120
Speaker 4: and so it's a real problem.

264
00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:38,640
Speaker 5: And I just hate that it's been so effective.

265
00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:43,200
Speaker 1: In my head, this is like it's such a bad

266
00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,200
Speaker 1: Like when the queer community are involved, I'm like, it's

267
00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:49,240
Speaker 1: because they were like dressed too too good, Like they're

268
00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:51,480
Speaker 1: they're showing off their fits, you know, Yeah, a little

269
00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:53,960
Speaker 1: trend that's happening on TikTok. Yeah, they're showing their office

270
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,080
Speaker 1: and so they were being too distracting and caused this

271
00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:57,600
Speaker 1: plane crash.

272
00:14:57,640 --> 00:14:58,960
Speaker 5: And that's what it goes in my head.

273
00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:03,080
Speaker 4: I mean, that's essentially it's like a joke, but like

274
00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:04,560
Speaker 4: that's essentially what they're saying.

275
00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:17,720
Speaker 5: Sometimes it's so silly. It is beyond.

276
00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:20,600
Speaker 1: This is the part I think you're coming back to,

277
00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:23,840
Speaker 1: and I want to make note of that there is

278
00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:27,360
Speaker 1: no real liability in this different this information slash just

279
00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:32,440
Speaker 1: straight out lies because this plays out on social media exactly.

280
00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:35,440
Speaker 4: So we're starting to see a little bit of movement there,

281
00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:37,040
Speaker 4: and I'll talk more about that toward the end of

282
00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:41,200
Speaker 4: the episode. But yeah, because it's all happening online, it's

283
00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:45,000
Speaker 4: happening in a space where real damage can be done,

284
00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:49,440
Speaker 4: and then real accountability can be elusive, and so that's

285
00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:53,440
Speaker 4: exactly what happened in this case. Right wing influencers just

286
00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:57,160
Speaker 4: started boosting lies that Ellis was involved in this crash

287
00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:00,240
Speaker 4: when she wasn't. On Twitter, Matt Wallace, who has over

288
00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:02,560
Speaker 4: two million followers, put out a post saying that a

289
00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:06,040
Speaker 4: trans Blackhawk pilot had written a letter about depression and

290
00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,360
Speaker 4: gender dysphoria the day before a deadly crash. So if

291
00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:13,440
Speaker 4: you actually read Ellis's piece, she talks about how she

292
00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:17,040
Speaker 4: was depressed, but when when she was young, before she

293
00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:21,040
Speaker 4: transitioned her her piece is all about how, you know,

294
00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:24,400
Speaker 4: I feel like I have a supportive community both professionally

295
00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,560
Speaker 4: and personally and socially. Her her piece did not make

296
00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:29,440
Speaker 4: her sound like she was an unhappy person. It made

297
00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:31,720
Speaker 4: her sound like she was a very happy, you know,

298
00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:33,200
Speaker 4: solid person.

299
00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:34,840
Speaker 5: So even even that is a lie.

300
00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:37,560
Speaker 4: But he went so far as to suggest that it

301
00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:41,360
Speaker 4: might have been some kind of a quote trans terror attack.

302
00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:44,960
Speaker 4: That post blew up and got almost five million views

303
00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,600
Speaker 4: before he deleted it. Then Anne vander Steele, who was

304
00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:51,720
Speaker 4: a pretty well known QAnon personality with a huge following online,

305
00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:54,880
Speaker 4: jumped in and pushed the same false claim. She did

306
00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:58,720
Speaker 4: eventually post a attraction, and of course it would not

307
00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:02,920
Speaker 4: be an episode abouts phobia without mentioning Elon Musk. Musk's

308
00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:07,000
Speaker 4: own AI chatbot, known as Grock, falsely named Ellis as

309
00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:10,040
Speaker 4: the pilot, which only made the rumor spread faster. So

310
00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:14,120
Speaker 4: before long, Ellis was actually trending as the second most

311
00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:17,080
Speaker 4: talked about topic on Twitter, with more than ninety thousand

312
00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:22,879
Speaker 4: posts about her like speculating that she was involved and

313
00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:24,600
Speaker 4: that the whole thing was some sort of a quote

314
00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:28,240
Speaker 4: trans terror attack. She had to put out a proof

315
00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,880
Speaker 4: of life video on social media to reassure her community

316
00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:35,000
Speaker 4: that she wasn't dead, and also just as an attempt

317
00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:37,040
Speaker 4: to push back against these lies.

318
00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:41,120
Speaker 1: I hate that she had to do a proof of

319
00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:45,359
Speaker 1: life video just to like save her name. But also

320
00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,919
Speaker 1: I wonder how many people like this is AI, like

321
00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:50,919
Speaker 1: they still refuse to believe in Yeah.

322
00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:51,640
Speaker 5: I mean, that's the thing.

323
00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:54,560
Speaker 4: So we know that in that crash there were no survivors,

324
00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:56,680
Speaker 4: and so I almost wonder if someone has to saw

325
00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:57,919
Speaker 4: a video of for her being like, well there were

326
00:17:57,920 --> 00:17:59,840
Speaker 4: no survivors and here I am, They're like, that's not

327
00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:04,200
Speaker 4: that's AI, and that just goes to show how our

328
00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:08,800
Speaker 4: digital media landscape is is that some people, when confronted

329
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:13,680
Speaker 4: with the truth that does not align with the reality

330
00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:15,639
Speaker 4: that they want to be true, will always reject it.

331
00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:15,879
Speaker 1: Right.

332
00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:18,040
Speaker 4: They can meet her in the flesh and it's like, oh,

333
00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:20,399
Speaker 4: it's a body double like it does not It truly

334
00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:25,000
Speaker 4: does not matter, so I will say. After she posted

335
00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:29,320
Speaker 4: her proof of life video, Matt Wallace, one of the

336
00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:33,240
Speaker 4: people who initially claimed that she was responsible for this accident,

337
00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,439
Speaker 4: did post to say, oh, I saw that video. Ellis

338
00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:40,480
Speaker 4: is alive and well and not responsible for the crash.

339
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:45,159
Speaker 4: He shifted the blame to another account called fake Gay Politics,

340
00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,480
Speaker 4: which has since been suspended on x saying this is

341
00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:50,960
Speaker 4: apparently the first account who reported what we now know

342
00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:53,959
Speaker 4: is false. It seemed credible because Joe Ellis wrote an

343
00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:56,840
Speaker 4: article calling out Trump's trans military band only a few

344
00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,000
Speaker 4: days ago. I have to point out that in this

345
00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:01,439
Speaker 4: post where he said, oh, I got it wrong, she

346
00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:05,520
Speaker 4: wasn't responsible, he of course also misgenders her because he

347
00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:07,360
Speaker 4: can't just he just can't help himself like he has

348
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,240
Speaker 4: to even in a post where I don't know he

349
00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:14,840
Speaker 4: should maybe be apologizing for baselessly accusing her of committing

350
00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:17,399
Speaker 4: a trans terror attack to like millions of people. He

351
00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:19,920
Speaker 4: should maybe apologizing, No, he's like I got a missgender

352
00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:22,720
Speaker 4: her on the way out also right.

353
00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,920
Speaker 1: I mean it's definitely like, you know, gotta less, treat

354
00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:28,600
Speaker 1: them less than human type of narrative from him, of

355
00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,400
Speaker 1: course Wallace, which I can't stand him anyway, But Matt

356
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:34,800
Speaker 1: Wallason himself, he can't. He can't really actually show any

357
00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:36,800
Speaker 1: compassion exactly.

358
00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,160
Speaker 4: And I think, what what How this moved? How this

359
00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:46,000
Speaker 4: claim moved online? I think really shows what an effective

360
00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:50,120
Speaker 4: social media and media apparatus folks on the right really

361
00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:54,000
Speaker 4: do have, where these claims maybe start in more fringe

362
00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,800
Speaker 4: pockets of the Internet like four Chan or some random

363
00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:59,960
Speaker 4: extremist bloggers Twitter page, but then they quickly get boost

364
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:04,480
Speaker 4: did by right wing politicians media figures, and then bleed

365
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,679
Speaker 4: into more mainstream media outlets where they just sort of

366
00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:09,560
Speaker 4: become part of people's consciousness.

367
00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:10,840
Speaker 5: Like I would be willing to bet.

368
00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:16,399
Speaker 4: That because that picture of Sam Hyde where it misrepresents

369
00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,280
Speaker 4: Sam as a trans woman responsible for this attack, I

370
00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:21,640
Speaker 4: would be willing to bet that some people out there think, oh,

371
00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,880
Speaker 4: that image is of an actual trans person who committed

372
00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:28,080
Speaker 4: a horrible atrocity, even though it's not because it's just

373
00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:29,920
Speaker 4: like part of the ecosystem.

374
00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:32,880
Speaker 3: Now, yeah, And I mean that's part of the damage here,

375
00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:39,400
Speaker 3: is even with these retractions, which I mean, I guess

376
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:41,280
Speaker 3: I'm glad I did them, but at the same time,

377
00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,440
Speaker 3: I'm kind of like, yeah, sure, okay, but at that point,

378
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,480
Speaker 3: the damage is kind of done, Like somebody has already

379
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,760
Speaker 3: been pinned for this, some you know, some people who

380
00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,679
Speaker 3: digested that information might not ever see the retraction, Like

381
00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:00,600
Speaker 3: the damage is kind of done. They might have that

382
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,920
Speaker 3: already in their head. And Ellis was someone who went

383
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,520
Speaker 3: who experienced this kind of thing.

384
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:08,760
Speaker 5: Yeah.

385
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:13,159
Speaker 4: She described going essentially overnight, going from being unknown in

386
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,639
Speaker 4: public to being somebody who felt like they could not

387
00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,359
Speaker 4: even go out in public for her own safety. She

388
00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,000
Speaker 4: told The New York Times quote, my life was turned

389
00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:24,080
Speaker 4: upside down at that point, adding that her employer sent

390
00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,959
Speaker 4: armed bodyguards to protect her family and that she started

391
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,520
Speaker 4: carrying a loaded weapon as a precaution. Forever on, I'm

392
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:34,560
Speaker 4: known as that trans terrorist. And so as you both

393
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:39,200
Speaker 4: were just saying these claims, they it can be hard

394
00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:43,200
Speaker 4: to get accountability because they're happening online. And even though

395
00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:47,679
Speaker 4: Matt Wallace did retract his claim that she was involved

396
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:50,720
Speaker 4: in this. I have to imagine that he did that

397
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,040
Speaker 4: because Ellis did not take this sitting down. She actually

398
00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:56,399
Speaker 4: fought back. And so we've talked about this on my

399
00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,800
Speaker 4: own podcast a lot. But when online right wing influencers

400
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:03,240
Speaker 4: and figures spread lies about people, we're starting to see

401
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:06,200
Speaker 4: more and more the people that are targeted by their

402
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:11,800
Speaker 4: lives are filing defamation lawsuits against people who spread demonstrable,

403
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:14,400
Speaker 4: harmful lies about them. And that's exactly what Ellis did.

404
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,600
Speaker 4: She filed a defamation lawsuit against Matt Wallace in April,

405
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,640
Speaker 4: saying that he was behind a destructive and irresponsible defamation campaign.

406
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,440
Speaker 4: The lawsuit against Wallace, filed in the US District Court

407
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,240
Speaker 4: in Colorado, was a way for Ellis to seek damages

408
00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:31,160
Speaker 4: for the harm cause to her reputation, privacy, and safety.

409
00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:34,480
Speaker 4: Ellis said that Wallace has not yet counter filed, and

410
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,400
Speaker 4: her lawsuit was filed by the Equality Legal Action Fund,

411
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,880
Speaker 4: which is a group of volunteer attorneys and advocates who

412
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 4: helped members of the LGBTQ community fight online defamation. And

413
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,480
Speaker 4: so I have to imagine that when all these people

414
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,199
Speaker 4: were like, oh, looks like I got it wrong and

415
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:51,919
Speaker 4: this person wasn't involved in this tragedy. As I just

416
00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,600
Speaker 4: said to a million people. I have to imagine part

417
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,200
Speaker 4: of that was because they did not want to face

418
00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:00,920
Speaker 4: a defamation lawsuit, which yeah, they If you lie about

419
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,560
Speaker 4: people in a way that can harm them, harm their career,

420
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 4: harm their livelihood, you might actually be looking at a

421
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:07,160
Speaker 4: defamation lawsuit.

422
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:09,240
Speaker 2: Yeah.

423
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we have seen some cases of this working

424
00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:14,160
Speaker 3: out recently.

425
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 2: Interestingly, I don't.

426
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,000
Speaker 3: Know if you've been following what happened, what's going on

427
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:20,879
Speaker 3: with the app Tea?

428
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:23,920
Speaker 5: Oh yes, I have, very very closely.

429
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,399
Speaker 3: Yes, But we were talking about that recently in an

430
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 3: episode about defamation. Is it can be tricky, but if

431
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:37,840
Speaker 3: you can prove like this demonstrably hurt me, you can

432
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:39,439
Speaker 3: you can get some money from that.

433
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 5: Yeah.

434
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:44,440
Speaker 4: Are you talking about how the women who were had

435
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:49,080
Speaker 4: their information, you know, exposed by Tea are suing.

436
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, we were talking about both because men were

437
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,720
Speaker 3: so angry and they were trying to sue for defamation,

438
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 3: and it's kind of tricky when a lot of it

439
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 3: is just well, this is the date you went on

440
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:05,960
Speaker 3: and this is what you posted online. So it's kind

441
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 3: of tricky, but in other cases like it, then the

442
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:15,120
Speaker 3: women were have their information leaked and they're like, well,

443
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:16,880
Speaker 3: this is a bit.

444
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,399
Speaker 4: I When I was covering the t APP, we were

445
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 4: talking about those are we dating the same guy? Facebook

446
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:27,199
Speaker 4: pages that kind of were a sort of precursor to

447
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,639
Speaker 4: the t APP, And as you just said, men tried

448
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 4: to sue women who talked about the dates that they

449
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 4: had had that on those pages, and those lawsuits did

450
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,200
Speaker 4: not go anywhere. And I remember watching a press conference

451
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 4: of these women who posted on one of those pages

452
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:44,480
Speaker 4: after the case was dropped and they were not going

453
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 4: to be found libel for defamation.

454
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 5: They basically said exactly what you just said. Annie.

455
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,879
Speaker 4: You know, I'm sorry that you didn't like that what

456
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,120
Speaker 4: I said about what happened on our date was not

457
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 4: favorable to you, But that is what happened, and that's

458
00:24:59,000 --> 00:24:59,640
Speaker 4: not defamation.

459
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 5: And I guess the court of reed right.

460
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 1: And I think the thing about these types of cases

461
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,120
Speaker 1: and anything with like civil lawsuits in general, with defamations

462
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,880
Speaker 1: and all of this, is that it really does give

463
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,719
Speaker 1: an upper hand to victims who can prove what is happening.

464
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 1: We talked about this in the Meet two episode. We

465
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 1: just had an interview with EA Gene Carroll and her

466
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 1: defamation lawsuits, which you were like, yes, girl, get them,

467
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:27,159
Speaker 1: but like, the level of proof is not as deep

468
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 1: as a criminal case. But you still have to prove

469
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 1: it obviously, And it's such a tricky thing because there's

470
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 1: so many unsure ways and this is not as well

471
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 1: known obviously defamation and civil lawsuits. Civil suits are not

472
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,440
Speaker 1: as well known as criminal suits. We're not like watching

473
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 1: shows based on that, although we could, and I'm guessing

474
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 1: like this is probably going to be one of those

475
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 1: same things where it's kind of like, uh, how do

476
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 1: we proceed?

477
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 5: What does this look like?

478
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean again, it is this like tricky gray

479
00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 4: area legally. Another good example of people successfully suing for

480
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 4: defamation were the parents of the Sandy Hook shooting, who

481
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 4: successfully sued Alex Jones for defamation after he repeatedly and

482
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 4: baselessly claimed the shooting that killed their babies was a hoax,

483
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 4: that their kids were not really dead, that they were actors,

484
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 4: or that the parents were involved in some massive conspiracy,

485
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 4: and that I mean, they were able to prove that

486
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 4: he actually did defame them. Also, it's it's such a

487
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 4: despicable thing. To do, like he deserves every bad thing

488
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,200
Speaker 4: that could happen to a person. When you actually look

489
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 4: at the at the le he didn't just say this

490
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 4: offhand once or twice. These people had his listeners showing

491
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 4: up to their houses to harass them in person. Like,

492
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 4: when you actually look at the things that he did,

493
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 4: it's so despicable. And we also know that Dominion Voting

494
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,440
Speaker 4: Systems got a seven hundred and eighty seven million dollar

495
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 4: settlement from Fox News because Fox claimed that their voting

496
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 4: systems during the election were rigged against Trump. So there

497
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 4: is some precedent for suing businesses for defamation. You know,

498
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 4: Fox is a business, Alex Jones, it runs a business,

499
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 4: but not really a precedent for suing individual influencers who

500
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,959
Speaker 4: spread damaging lies about people. So I think that's what

501
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,679
Speaker 4: Ellis is really trying to do. Trying to say, like,

502
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 4: if an influencer with millions of followers says a demonstrably

503
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 4: false claim about me that harms me, I should be

504
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 4: able to seek damages for that. And I think, you know,

505
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 4: especially for marginalized people, there should be some kind of

506
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 4: legal recourse that prevents this. It should not just be

507
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 4: that anybody can say, any harmful, dangerous, damaging lie they want,

508
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:40,400
Speaker 4: and you just have to.

509
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 2: Eat it right, right.

510
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 1: I mean, when we look at like Giuliani again with Trump,

511
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 1: even the Megan, thee Stallion, recent cases like those are

512
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 1: these are really interesting. Of course we have bigger names

513
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 1: doing these cases. Not the Juliani case. That was a

514
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:59,159
Speaker 1: beautiful suit to see in itself, But there are so

515
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:00,879
Speaker 1: many things that it looks like, you know, this is

516
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 1: the best solution. I say that hesitantly because it's so

517
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 1: gross that we can't people can't get justice in general.

518
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 5: Yes, but like I guess you know what I.

519
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 4: Mean, No, totally, and I'm glad that you brought up Giuliani.

520
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 4: So he was sued by two women who probably heard

521
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 4: of Ruby Freeman and Shay Moss Georgia, women who he again,

522
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 4: I guess, I want to bring this up because it's

523
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 4: not like he just casually, offhand said, oh, maybe they

524
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:33,119
Speaker 4: were involved in vote rigging the election for Biden against Trump.

525
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 4: The way that he said this repeatedly, the way that

526
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 4: he I mean, he like. In one instance, he accuses

527
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 4: them of passing back and forth USB files that had

528
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 4: secret hidden votes on them, as if they were doing

529
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 4: a drug deal together, like the way that he it's

530
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 4: not so I just want to make clear because some

531
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 4: people are probably thinking, oh, well, why can't I just

532
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 4: say whatever I want about anybody? But these were not

533
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 4: public figures, right, And it's not just an offhand casual remark.

534
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 4: It is baselessly and repeatedly saying very inflammatory things about somebody,

535
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 4: over and over and.

536
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 5: Over again to audiences of millions, Like it really is.

537
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 4: When you think, when you actually look at what some

538
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 4: of these cases involved, it's really clear that you should

539
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 4: not just be able to do this.

540
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 5: This would it really did.

541
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 4: Have a clear damaging impact on the lives of the

542
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 4: people targeted, Like people broke into Ruby Freeman and Shae

543
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 4: Moss's home they tried to make a citizens arrest while

544
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 4: her grandmother, her elderly grandmother, was in the house.

545
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 5: Like that was probably terrifying.

546
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 1: Right, And we know a lot of this as we

547
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 1: started the conversation about mass shootings and shootings in general,

548
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 1: have like a lot of these bases could be on

549
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 1: the misinformation. The CDC shooting literally was based on that

550
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 1: as far as we know. And by the way the

551
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 1: way that was just swept under the rug, can we

552
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 1: talk about that.

553
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 5: Yes, sorry that was a side note, but.

554
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 1: I'm just like this miss, this disinformation is what's causing

555
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 1: some of these awful outcomes.

556
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 4: We are living in a time where somebody can baselessly

557
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 4: disparage really anybody, and that and like in this day

558
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 4: and age, I'm sorry to say that.

559
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 5: Can have violent outcomes.

560
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 4: And the fact that we I agree with you, the

561
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 4: fact that the CDC shooting happened and we all just

562
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 4: sort of moved on from it, and the number one

563
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 4: figure of public health and in this country RFK Junior

564
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 4: barely even mentioned it. I mean, I think it really

565
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 4: deeply means that we have reached a new echelon in

566
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 4: this kind of thing that it could be open season

567
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 4: on anybody, like genuinely, today it's CDC workers, or two

568
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,479
Speaker 4: black women who are election workers, or a trans pilot.

569
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 4: Tomorrow it could be you, like genuinely, like that is

570
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 4: where we're at.

571
00:30:48,000 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 6: Yeah.

572
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 3: Unfortunately, in this case, we are talking about the damage

573
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 3: done to the trans community, which is already facing so

574
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 3: much violence and this is just exacerbating it.

575
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, And so as I was saying, blaming trans folks

576
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 4: for incidents they had literally nothing to do with, is

577
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 4: no isolated saying. A review of news reports and fact

578
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 4: checking database claim View shows that since twenty twenty two,

579
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 4: there have been a dozen incidents when a transperson was

580
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 4: wrongly blamed for a tragedy or a violent incident. So

581
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 4: after the tragic death of Melissa Hortman, the lawmaker and

582
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 4: her husband who were tragically murdered by a gunman earlier

583
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 4: this year, Donald Trump Junior said, quote, the radical transgender

584
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 4: movement is per capita of the most violent domestic terror threat,

585
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 4: if not in America, then probably the entire world. And

586
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 4: that shooter was not even a transperson. A trans woman

587
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 4: was initially blamed for the Trump shooting in Butler, Pennsylvania.

588
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 4: After a shooting where two people were killed in Wisconsin,

589
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 4: Alex Jones, who like I said, really should not be

590
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 4: lying about anybody at this point, said, if the statistical

591
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 4: trend continues with this tragic event, there's a ninety eight

592
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 4: percent chance the shooting is trans.

593
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 5: Or gang related. I don't know where you got that from.

594
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 4: If this is another trans whack job or gang shooting,

595
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 4: it will be out of the news in less than

596
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 4: twenty four hours. And so I gotta say, this is

597
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 4: just a complete lie. Trans people are far more likely

598
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 4: to be the victims of crime, not the perpetrator.

599
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:31,479
Speaker 5: This is from Wired.

600
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 4: Research shows that trans people are four times more likely

601
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 4: to be the victims of violence compared to sist people.

602
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 4: According to the LGBTQ advocacy group GLAD, between May twenty

603
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 4: twenty four and May twenty twenty five, there have been

604
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 4: at least twenty six injuries and one death reported among

605
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 4: trans and gender nonconforming people, a fourteen percent jump in

606
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 4: the previous year. Meanwhile, claims that trans people are behind

607
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 4: mass violence doesn't add up. Per the Gun Violence Archive,

608
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 4: there have been four thousand and four hundred mass shootings

609
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 4: in the past decade, of which fewer than ten known

610
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 4: suspects were trans. That is zero point one one percent.

611
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 4: And again, I mean trans people are already not a

612
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 4: huge number of the population in general, so like just

613
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 4: common sense would probably tell you they would not be

614
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 4: statistically overrepresented in mass shootings. And so all of these

615
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 4: claims linking trans people to being the perpetrators of violence

616
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 4: are just bunked.

617
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 5: They're not true. It's just another way to lie about

618
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 5: this community and demonize them.

619
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's the same similar to the bathroom

620
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 1: argument that there's going to be men and the trans

621
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 1: men are men coming into the bathroom to molest your children.

622
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 1: They're like, what, that's never been a that's never been

623
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 1: a what are you what?

624
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 5: Yeah?

625
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 4: And whenever I hear about that when people are like, well,

626
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 4: CIS men are just gonna go into the bathroom with

627
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 4: your little daughters and creep on them, isn't what shouldn't

628
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 4: not beyond the CIS men? Like, if you're saying that

629
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 4: the problem is that sis ana are gonna use this

630
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 4: to sneak their way into bathrooms to harm girls, what

631
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 4: a trans Like, there's not a trans person in the

632
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,879
Speaker 4: mix in this scenario that you've paint in, this fear

633
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 4: mongering scenario that you've just painted out, wouldn't.

634
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 5: That be on the CIS men? Right?

635
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,439
Speaker 1: Also, can we if we're really worried about these young girls,

636
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 1: can we talk about child bride laws? And you're like,

637
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 1: are we gonna talk of nonet me?

638
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 4: I mean I have said this so often and I

639
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 4: mean it literally, we hate children. We will absolutely be like, oh,

640
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 4: we have to protect the kids, and this really convenient

641
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 4: one instance that aligns with my political policies. But then

642
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,479
Speaker 4: in every other instance, it's like those kids. We hate

643
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:39,719
Speaker 4: kids we're not interested to protect. We wouldn't even be

644
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,839
Speaker 4: having this conversation about how we allow kids to get

645
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:44,840
Speaker 4: shot when they try to go to school if we

646
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 4: actually gave us about kids.

647
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 5: We hate kids like we don't care about them at.

648
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 1: All, feeding kids, giving them lunches, Oh dear God, what

649
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 1: let them starve?

650
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,359
Speaker 5: Put them in the minds. Get a job. Just then

651
00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:00,720
Speaker 5: go ahead do your thing. Okay, listen, you're in kindergarten.

652
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 4: If you don't have a job, and if the rectory

653
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 4: are a mind, I don't want to hear it.

654
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 1: I love the regressing, and we all have a lot

655
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 1: like the child labor laws, like they need to work

656
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:10,439
Speaker 1: at ten, they absolutely need to be working.

657
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 5: Let's let's bring them into the fields. I almost feel like.

658
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:16,880
Speaker 4: We're getting closer and closer to this being explicit because

659
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 4: I at least we don't have to hear the sort

660
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 4: of protect the children rhetoric so much anymore.

661
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 5: We still hear I'm not saying we don't hear it, but.

662
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that people their naked hatred of children

663
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:28,879
Speaker 4: is becoming more and more on display. So at least

664
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 4: we can all just have an honest conversation about it.

665
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:32,400
Speaker 4: We don't have to pretend that you want to protect

666
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 4: kids when you want them to be starving in minds

667
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:35,760
Speaker 4: or whatever.

668
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 5: Right, give us our batteries.

669
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.

670
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:46,279
Speaker 4: Anyway, coming back to so that was just my little

671
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:47,760
Speaker 4: rant about how much you make kids.

672
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 1: You know how I love going on the side quest

673
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 1: made these conversations with you.

674
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 5: But yeah, like we do.

675
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:55,880
Speaker 1: Like I said, I've mentioned before about this whole level

676
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 1: of social media and what kind of a role they

677
00:35:59,239 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 1: are playing.

678
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 5: Can you kind of bring us back to that.

679
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean all of this, all of the things

680
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 4: I've just talked about, it's all made worse when you

681
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:10,320
Speaker 4: look at how most social media platforms have really rolled

682
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 4: back whatever rules they did have that were meant to

683
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 4: prevent trans people being harmed on their platforms. This was

684
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 4: something I personally worked in when I was working for

685
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,840
Speaker 4: an advocacy organization called Ultraviolet. We worked with platforms like

686
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:25,879
Speaker 4: TikTok and read It to have them spell out that

687
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,239
Speaker 4: behavior like dead naming or misgendering was going to be

688
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 4: called out in their hateful conduct policies. Almost instantly, when

689
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 4: Trump got on office, a lot of that stuff was

690
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 4: rolled back. That was one of the first positions that

691
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 4: Elon Musk rolled back when he took over Twitter. So

692
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 4: like the way that we are living in a less

693
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 4: protected landscape for trans and queer and marginalized people online.

694
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 5: It's just sad how quickly that became the case.

695
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:54,399
Speaker 4: And you know a lot of these platforms, even linked In,

696
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,760
Speaker 4: have really rolled back whatever protections they did have around

697
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 4: this kind of harmful content and language toward marginalized people

698
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 4: like transpokes, and it becomes an even bigger problem as

699
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 4: algorithms amplify harmful content, while platforms like Facebook and Twitter

700
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:14,840
Speaker 4: really just abandoned fact checking. Earlier this year, Facebook also

701
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 4: loosened its rules around hate speech and abuse.

702
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 5: And so, yeah, we're just.

703
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 4: Living in a much less moderated online landscape when it

704
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 4: comes to marginalized people, trans people, queer people, and it's

705
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 4: a problem. And I think all of that relates to

706
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 4: you know why, when Matt Wallace baselessly accuses a trans

707
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 4: pilot of being involved in this crash, not only is

708
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:43,320
Speaker 4: it amplified, but that sticks around. It becomes a trending

709
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 4: topic on a platform even though it's just a complete lie.

710
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 4: And I think at the heart of all of this

711
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 4: is really just shows how eager people are to use anything,

712
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 4: even outright lies, to paint trans people as violent. You know,

713
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 4: it's like they're trying to build a world where trans

714
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,720
Speaker 4: folks never get to just exist at the as themselves. Instead,

715
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 4: they're being constantly scrutinized and held responsible not just for

716
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 4: what other trans people do, but even for things that

717
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 4: have never actually happened, Like, how could you ever exist

718
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 4: if that was the climate that you were that you

719
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 4: had to exist under. It just it just really goes

720
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:26,320
Speaker 4: to show how much people want to create a climate

721
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 4: where these folks don't exist.

722
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 6: Yeah.

723
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:39,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, it feels very purposeful, and it's frightening in that

724
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 3: it is so effective. And you know, I know we've

725
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 3: talked about this before, but there have been people in

726
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 3: the periphery of my life where I've sort of watched

727
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 3: them fall into this kind of conspiracy world.

728
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 2: Well they'll say something and I.

729
00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 3: Just pause, like, wait what, And I've just seen them

730
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 3: go further and further and further down this path, and

731
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:06,320
Speaker 3: it's it's it's.

732
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 2: Frustrating and frightening. And I do.

733
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:16,080
Speaker 3: Think that in some places it's like misinformation, but I

734
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:19,279
Speaker 3: think a lot of it is purposeful. I think they

735
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:20,479
Speaker 3: want to a RaSE.

736
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I completely agree.

737
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 4: And you know, I will definitely be following Ellis's defamation

738
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 4: suit because it I don't want. I don't like the

739
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 4: idea that the only recourse is fighting back in the courts.

740
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 4: But I do think having there be a cost for

741
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 4: spreading these kinds of harmful lies online would be a

742
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 4: good thing. I think a signal that says, if you're

743
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 4: going to get on the internet and blast a lie

744
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 4: about a transperson to millions of people, that might be

745
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 4: a decision that comes out of cost for you, so

746
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 4: think twice about it. And so I think I'll be

747
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 4: interested to see where this suit goes and whether or

748
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 4: not it creates a dynamic where folks do think twice

749
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:04,919
Speaker 4: before they get online and lie about trans people because

750
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 4: they should.

751
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 2: Yes, they should.

752
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 5: I mean you should. You should think twice before you

753
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,280
Speaker 5: lie about anybody, but don't lie.

754
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 3: Yes, I think that would be fantastic for everyone. Uh,

755
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 3: if people thought twice before lying online, It's it's fascinating.

756
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,440
Speaker 3: I used to have to answer the comments on YouTube

757
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 3: under our videos, and it was so interesting to me

758
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 3: how many times I'd be like, hi, I'm a real person,

759
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 3: and they'd be like, oh my god, I'm so sorry, so.

760
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 5: Funny that you say this.

761
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 4: I made a video of a video on Instagram about

762
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 4: AI and someone let the comment that said, why should

763
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 4: we trust you? Aren't you AI? And I was like,

764
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:51,720
Speaker 4: oh my god, am I AI? I had a moment

765
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 4: where I thought, you know, I thought I had a childhood.

766
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,280
Speaker 4: I thought I had blood drawn? But am i AI?

767
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 4: But what would AI? Wouldn't if you were AI? What

768
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:02,440
Speaker 4: didn't you think you were real? Like, it's not like

769
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 4: a I would know they were AI. It really caused

770
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 4: me to go down an existential tailspin. I think I'm real,

771
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 4: but could I ever be? Could I ever be sure?

772
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about the dude that got engaged to the AI.

773
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 1: I think we talked about before and didn't she admit

774
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 1: she's not a real person. I think she said that

775
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:23,359
Speaker 1: I'm not real, but my feelings, our feelings are real.

776
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 4: Yes, like that the guy who got who proposed with Aiah.

777
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:31,240
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's just not real, but our feelings,

778
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 1: their feelings, the relationship was.

779
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 5: I was like, wait, my feelings are real.

780
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 1: I love it was, Oh, we're gonna have a crisis.

781
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're getting into matrix territory.

782
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 3: You know this, This very question became a huge deal

783
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 3: in the Star Wars fandom a couple of years ago

784
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 3: because they introduced a droid that could use the Force.

785
00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 3: So if a droid can use the Force, then you're saying.

786
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:02,800
Speaker 2: It's alive.

787
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 3: So they what are we doing with all of these

788
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:06,800
Speaker 3: other troids?

789
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:07,839
Speaker 4: Yeah?

790
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, I've always wondered this. I mean, this is a

791
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 5: whole rabbit hole.

792
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:12,879
Speaker 4: But and I'm not I don't know a ton about

793
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:16,879
Speaker 4: Star Wars, but I do notice the Stormtroopers Are they

794
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,799
Speaker 4: are they? Because when they get killed there it's never

795
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:22,480
Speaker 4: it's never like my body, I'm always Are they are?

796
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 1: They?

797
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:23,880
Speaker 5: Are they human?

798
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 1: Are? Like?

799
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:26,400
Speaker 5: What's the what's going on with them?

800
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:31,240
Speaker 3: Well, bridgie, I could go into a long thing, but essentially, yes,

801
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,279
Speaker 3: most of them are human and or clones which are

802
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 3: also human.

803
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:39,560
Speaker 2: But yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, they kind of have like

804
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 2: numbers for names. Yeah, so so.

805
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 4: They're not like when they're not doing Stormtroopers stuff, it's

806
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:48,479
Speaker 4: not like they're taking off their mask and like going

807
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:49,840
Speaker 4: home to the kids and watching teacher.

808
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 2: And most of them are not.

809
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:53,359
Speaker 3: Some of them aren't, but a lot of them are

810
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,759
Speaker 3: like grown quickly in a in a tube, so they

811
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 3: like might not have even had a childhood.

812
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 5: Hot it. Yeah, my god, how deep does this thing go?

813
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 2: You don't even want to know.

814
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's not the question. Dangerous unless you got a week.

815
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:15,320
Speaker 3: Okay, well maybe later welcome back to that, but in

816
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 3: the meantime, always wonderful to have you on. Thank you

817
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:21,320
Speaker 3: so much for bringing this topic and for being here.

818
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 3: Where can the good listeners find you?

819
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 4: You can listen to my podcast. There are no girls

820
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 4: on the Internet. You can find me on Instagram at

821
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:31,319
Speaker 4: bridget Brie and DC, on TikTok at bridgeant Brie and DC,

822
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 4: and on YouTube.

823
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 5: There are no girls on the internet.

824
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:36,839
Speaker 3: Yes, and listeners, go check out all that stuff. If

825
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 3: you haven't already. If you would like to contact us,

826
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 3: you can. You can email us at Hello, Stuffhenever Told

827
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:42,919
Speaker 3: You dot com. You can also find us on Blue

828
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:45,319
Speaker 3: Sky at Mom's a Podcast, or Instagram and TikTok at

829
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 3: STUFFE Never Told You for us on YouTube. We have

830
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 3: some new merchandise at Cotton Bureau if you want to

831
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 3: check it out, and we have a book you can

832
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:53,920
Speaker 3: get where we get your books. Thanks as always to

833
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 3: our super produce Christine or executive producer Maya and our

834
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:56,880
Speaker 3: contributor Joey.

835
00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:58,400
Speaker 5: Thank you and thanks to.

836
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:00,719
Speaker 2: You for listening STUFFE Never Told yous. Action by heart Radio.

837
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 3: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, you can check

838
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 3: out the heart Radio app Apple Podcasts, where you listen

839
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 3: to your favorite shows,