WEBVTT - Being Trans in the Time of Trump with Laverne Cox 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:05.680 Trans people were more visible post Orange and New Black. 0:00:05.840 --> 0:00:09.440 We had transparent Caitlyn Jenner a year after I was 0:00:09.440 --> 0:00:11.680 in the cover Time magazine choosing the cover Vanity Fair 0:00:12.160 --> 0:00:16.360 and Caitlyn's transition wise international news in a way that 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:17.919 shook the world. 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:19.759 And we had a few. 0:00:19.720 --> 0:00:24.800 Good years of progress, like more, a little more representation, 0:00:25.000 --> 0:00:28.280 more influencers, more trans people feeling comfortable coming out. 0:00:28.720 --> 0:00:31.280 And this is the inevitable backlash to that. 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:35.960 Hi everyone, I'm Kittie Couric, and this is next question 0:00:39.360 --> 0:00:42.280 Laverne Cox. I'm so happy to see you again. I've 0:00:42.440 --> 0:00:46.320 run into you on a couple of occasions, but I'm 0:00:46.360 --> 0:00:50.800 always so thrilled and delighted to talk to you because 0:00:52.080 --> 0:00:55.360 I learned so much from you every time we meet. 0:00:55.720 --> 0:00:59.240 And I thought we should probably give a quick synopsis 0:00:59.280 --> 0:01:03.480 of our backstorre because for people who are listening or watching, 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:06.160 you and I met Gosh. I think it was in 0:01:06.200 --> 0:01:09.680 twenty thirteen. Perhaps, yeah, it was twenty thirteen. I think 0:01:09.720 --> 0:01:11.960 we shot the show. I feel like it was the 0:01:12.040 --> 0:01:15.679 day before Thanksgiving. Wow, I know I remember because I 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:19.480 had just gotten back shooting a documentary called Free CC, 0:01:19.640 --> 0:01:24.000 and i'd just gone back from Saint Cloud, Minnesota, and 0:01:24.040 --> 0:01:27.720 I visited CC in prison. She's a trans woman who 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:30.840 was incarcerated at the time, and I was shooting Oranges 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:32.679 a New Black, and it was the story I wanted 0:01:32.720 --> 0:01:35.240 to cover before I booked Oranges and New Black. It 0:01:35.280 --> 0:01:36.840 was for a show called In the Life that was 0:01:36.880 --> 0:01:38.800 a PBS show. We're going to do a segment on CC. 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:41.399 And then they lost their funding, and then I booked 0:01:41.440 --> 0:01:43.120 Orange and I was like, I think we may have 0:01:43.160 --> 0:01:47.000 an opportunity to tell CC's story because of this show. 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:48.280 And then it happened. 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:50.800 And so I had just gone back from Saint Cloud, Minnesota, 0:01:50.840 --> 0:01:55.480 and I've been doing a college lecture tour. So that time, though, 0:01:55.520 --> 0:01:57.760 I just think about all the stats that I listed 0:01:57.760 --> 0:01:59.880 because I was doing I was triving the country like, 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:01.720 so all of that was fresh in my mind. So 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:03.520 everything I said on the show, I'd been saying on 0:02:03.560 --> 0:02:07.400 the road. So I remember all of that. And I 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:14.000 also remember that Todd was your booking agent at the time, 0:02:14.400 --> 0:02:18.720 and he emailed me directly and he told me, I 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:21.280 don't know why I remember. I know why I remember this. 0:02:21.560 --> 0:02:24.240 He emailed me directly and said, we do come on 0:02:24.240 --> 0:02:24.519 the show. 0:02:24.560 --> 0:02:25.079 Karma Career. 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:26.560 It is going to be on and then I was 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:29.160 like absolutely. And then he's like, we were so sad 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:31.800 you were unavailable the first time. And I was like, 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:34.079 what do you mean, Kate, because you'd had a few 0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:36.520 other people from Orang John earlier in your season, think 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:40.480 in September Jason and I think I'm Taylor and tats 0:02:40.520 --> 0:02:42.079 it your Katie's favorite character. 0:02:42.120 --> 0:02:42.680 And I was like what. 0:02:43.320 --> 0:02:46.240 And I hadn't heard anything about like not being available, 0:02:46.240 --> 0:02:48.440 and I was just like Netflix and asked me, you 0:02:48.480 --> 0:02:50.840 know about any of this, and so I was just 0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:52.560 sort of like, Okay, that's weird. 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:54.440 And so I remember that. 0:02:55.320 --> 0:02:58.200 But then what is so beautiful about it is that 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:01.000 I think things happened way they were supposed to. 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:05.440 Can I talk about how the show went, because I 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:08.359 think it's so important and you really saved my bacon 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:12.480 in many ways. So this is what happened everyone. We 0:03:12.560 --> 0:03:16.800 had Carmen Carrera on, she's a trans woman, wanted to 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:19.520 be the first Victoria's Secret Model, and. 0:03:19.480 --> 0:03:20.240 There was a petition. 0:03:20.400 --> 0:03:23.280 I've changed that org petition to make sure that first 0:03:23.560 --> 0:03:24.960 trans Victoria's Secret Model. 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:31.079 Yeah, so I had not done I had had little exposure. 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:34.160 I would say, I mean probably more than the average 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:35.360 place you had interviewed. 0:03:35.440 --> 0:03:39.400 I mean, you had interviewed a number of trans children, transfers. 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:41.320 Right right, right, I think I had done one other 0:03:41.440 --> 0:03:45.560 show on that, and Carmen came on and she was lovely, 0:03:46.480 --> 0:03:51.480 and I asked a really dumb question. I asked, what 0:03:51.600 --> 0:03:55.080 is happening? I'm embarrassed. I'm embarrassed even admit this. Now, 0:03:55.160 --> 0:03:57.080 what is going on with your private part? You said 0:03:57.120 --> 0:04:01.280 you have different private parts? Now I'll never forget it. Okay, 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:05.080 all right, all right, okay, like I'm praying. 0:04:05.240 --> 0:04:08.800 All so it's twenty twenty five, Like, how do you like, 0:04:09.480 --> 0:04:11.280 how do you feel like? I mean, you can't even 0:04:11.320 --> 0:04:13.400 say it now, so like now, like, how do you 0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:14.920 feel like all these years later? 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:19.680 Oh my god? Well, clearly I'm embarrassed, of course, and 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:23.000 I was also embarrassed at the time, but this was 0:04:23.080 --> 0:04:28.839 my thinking. I asked this an appropriate question, intrusive in 0:04:28.920 --> 0:04:36.039 every way, and Carmen understandably rejected that question appropriately. Later 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:39.599 you came on and we talked about it and talked 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:42.880 about her reaction to the question and why that was 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:45.960 so offensive. And I learned a tremendous amount from you, 0:04:46.000 --> 0:04:50.200 and you were incredibly loving and gracious about it, and 0:04:50.440 --> 0:04:52.800 my producers came to me later and said, do you 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:56.120 want to cut that question out that you asked Carmen. Now, 0:04:56.279 --> 0:04:59.360 I've often thought about this, what I have done this again? 0:04:59.440 --> 0:05:02.760 But I said, do you know I'm a relatively well 0:05:02.800 --> 0:05:07.919 read person. I consider myself super open minded. If I 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:11.760 ask a dumb question like that, or I want other 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:16.320 people to understand why that's an offensive question, So I 0:05:16.360 --> 0:05:22.159 don't mind making me look clueless if it's instructive to 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:26.640 the general population, So I say keep it in. It 0:05:26.680 --> 0:05:30.200 will be useful for people. It'll be a teachable moment. 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:32.719 It was for me and hopefully it will be for 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:39.960 people watching. Well after that episode ran the condemnation and 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:45.520 the fury was unleashed social media. At the time, I 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:50.599 guess it was primarily Twitter. It was horrible because I 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:53.320 was so attacked and I knew there was a lot 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:56.880 of anger and hurt in the trans community that I 0:05:56.920 --> 0:05:59.960 had asked that clueless question. I kind of tried to 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:03.640 explain my thought process and keeping it in because it 0:06:03.680 --> 0:06:08.400 was taped, it wasn't live, and later I ended up 0:06:08.400 --> 0:06:12.320 doing a documentary to educate myself and to go on 0:06:12.400 --> 0:06:15.960 a journey of learning and discovery for myself that I 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:21.039 hope would help other people learn and discover through it all. Laverne, 0:06:21.200 --> 0:06:25.760 you were so kind and compassionate to me and understanding. 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:28.800 In fact, a few years after that, you presented me 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:33.760 with an award for that documentary, and I also was 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:39.719 recognized by Family Equality, an organization that supports all different 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:40.360 kinds of faith. 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:44.320 Your Revolution is the name of the documentary. Yes, promote it. 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:45.240 It's really wonderful. 0:06:46.040 --> 0:06:47.920 It was quite a journey for me, but you were 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:52.880 a constant throughout that journey, and I just so appreciate 0:06:53.000 --> 0:06:58.200 you and your support as a result of that situation, 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:02.960 And so I think now I am quite educated about 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:06.680 trans issues. I consider myself a proud ally of the 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:11.080 trans community, and I wanted to have you on this 0:07:11.240 --> 0:07:17.320 podcast because I have been so upset about what's happening 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:22.360 to so many people in our country, and to prepare 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:26.040 for this, I asked my team to get a copy 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:32.080 of your cover on Time magazine June ninth, twenty fourteen, 0:07:32.280 --> 0:07:36.200 so eleven years ago, almost to talk to you about 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:39.920 what's happening, what has changed, and really to kind of 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:43.840 explore why I thought it was so interesting that the 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:48.160 transgender tipping point is what the cover said, America's next 0:07:48.600 --> 0:07:52.200 civil rights frontier. And I was so excited to see 0:07:52.240 --> 0:07:53.840 you on the cover of Time, and I thought it 0:07:53.920 --> 0:07:57.160 was such an important cultural moment. What do you think 0:07:57.200 --> 0:07:59.280 has happened, Laverne? 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:02.520 There's I mean, there's so much there. First of all, 0:08:02.800 --> 0:08:04.800 before we get to why we're here. And I have 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:07.880 a lot of theories and I think you know empirical 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:11.760 data about how we got here. But over the years, 0:08:11.840 --> 0:08:19.280 I've cited our friendship, your evolution, your willingness to be 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:27.720 uncomfortable publicly, as a really important example of transformation that 0:08:28.680 --> 0:08:32.440 so often, particularly in the environment there we're in now, 0:08:32.440 --> 0:08:37.160 with predatory algorithms, with the profit motive having us sort 0:08:37.160 --> 0:08:41.079 of Atajose throats instead of in a space where where 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:46.120 we can be educated and teachable, and we have so 0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:51.600 few examples of people having transformations where they truly become allies. 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:53.720 I didn't even know you were making gender revolution. So 0:08:53.760 --> 0:08:56.120 when I found out that the documentary was done, I 0:08:56.160 --> 0:08:57.240 think I got an email or something. 0:08:57.240 --> 0:09:01.160 I was like, oh my God, Like she's really serious, Like. 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:04.439 So she's not only because if you recall, it'd be 0:09:04.559 --> 0:09:06.440 the episode aired. I don't know why I remember all 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:08.600 these details. The episode aired on a Monday. It's the 0:09:08.640 --> 0:09:11.319 first Monday of January. 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:13.280 And it was I think it aired on my birthday, the. 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:16.920 First Monday in January twenty fourteen. And then on Fridays 0:09:16.960 --> 0:09:18.800 you were having like a talk back, and so you 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:21.960 talked about the backlash and how it was a teachable moment. 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:24.000 And then like June, I think was after the time 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:26.240 magazine covery, you had me back and we had seen 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:27.800 each other at a few events, and we kind of 0:09:27.840 --> 0:09:30.000 remember being at the time one hundred and going to 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:33.880 like a little corner and chatting about how hard it 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:37.600 had been to receive that backlash and what was different 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:40.440 about I think what's really really important for people to 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:47.000 understand is that up until that moment, it was acceptable 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:53.880 for interviewers to ask trans people about their genitalia, their surgeries, 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:56.240 and their transitions, and it was to rigor actually on 0:09:56.280 --> 0:09:59.120 television talkships. I had been doing a presentation for a 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:01.760 few years where I looked at the history of TV 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:05.640 talk shows starting with Christine Jorgensen, and how the narrative 0:10:05.679 --> 0:10:08.800 about trans people had sort of developed from Christine Jorgensen 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:12.959 into you know to like twenty twelve or so, and 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:17.839 every single talk show Christine Jorgenson's story was so much 0:10:17.840 --> 0:10:23.200 about surgery and it was just acceptable Renee Richards, but 0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:25.480 every sing if you look at all these talk shows, 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:27.840 and we have a little bit of this in Disclosure 0:10:27.840 --> 0:10:31.959 our documentary. Everyone asked about Genitalia. Even I noted an 0:10:32.000 --> 0:10:35.720 Oprah moment, and I live for Oprah, Live for Oprah. 0:10:35.760 --> 0:10:37.199 So there's not a criticism of Oprah. 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:41.839 But a woman named Kimberly Reid Kimberly Reed Prodigal Son. 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:45.319 She's an editor and documentary filmmaker. She had directed a 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:48.880 film about her life story called Prodigal Sons, and in 0:10:49.320 --> 0:10:52.360 the telling of her own story as a filmmaker, the 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:54.600 only thing she said about her transition is that it 0:10:54.640 --> 0:10:56.680 was like a second puberty. But when she was on 0:10:56.720 --> 0:11:00.920 the Oprah Winfrey Show, Oprah added that she had therapy, 0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:04.760 she had gender reassignment surgery. She added that because it's 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:06.640 for Oprah at the time, it's like, this is what 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:10.880 people want to know. People are curious, and we have 0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:14.920 to clarify, like what's going on in people's pants, because 0:11:14.960 --> 0:11:19.240 that's what people want to know. And what I theorized 0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:21.160 at the time is that even when there is a 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:23.920 humanized and it was a very humanizing interview because that's 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:29.079 what Oprah does, but even a humanized interview is undercut 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:33.480 when we focus on surgery and transition, that the audience 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:35.760 is like, oh my god, you know what happens in 0:11:35.800 --> 0:11:39.160 that surgery if it comes to humanizing, because that becomes 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:41.360 the takeaway for audiences and it leads to a kind 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:44.960 of misinformation, and so so much of how we've gotten 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:48.560 here now is a lot of misinformation, but that we 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:51.600 still haven't even with the work that you and I 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:54.200 have done other trans people have done, a lot of 0:11:54.240 --> 0:11:57.600 journalists since then have not been going there. The right 0:11:57.679 --> 0:12:01.880 wing has done a really really good job of reducing 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:06.640 trans people to medicalization and dehumanizing us like this, it's 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:09.000 a dehumanizing process and they've done it in a lot of 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:13.400 different ways right. So specifically, if we look back at 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:16.360 twenty I think twenty sixteen was the big moment with 0:12:17.080 --> 0:12:20.680 HB two in North Carolina that infamously the bathroom bill 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:24.280 that attempted to ban trans people from bathrooms. Well it 0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:27.720 did ban bathrooms to North Carolina. That bill was fought, 0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:30.800 it ended up being overturned there. 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:34.800 The NBA said that they wouldn't play games there. 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:39.160 Right, there was a movement where businesses in Ncuba, all 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:42.600 these athletic groups divested from North Carolina and they were like, 0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:44.800 this is bad for business. So they were like, we're 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:47.240 not going to do this. And bathroom bills had been 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:50.760 tried and attempted in other states too. After marriage equality 0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:54.400 became the law the land, the Republican think tanks like 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:59.520 mainly like Alliance Defending Freedom focus grouped trans issues and 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:05.560 what issue will sort of galvanize or outrage Americans most, 0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:09.560 and it was transluple in sports. And so in twenty 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:14.400 nineteen we saw the first anti trans girls in sports 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:17.280 bill introduced are forgetting what state. It didn't pass, but 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:19.360 the next year they introduced in another state and it 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:21.520 did pass. And what we should know about this all 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:25.199 the anti trans legislation now hath the country bands trans 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:28.440 girls from sports. There is a national band now because 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:32.120 of this current administration through executive order and some people 0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:34.280 are resisting, but all the executive words. 0:13:34.160 --> 0:13:35.679 Are being folded in the courts. We should all know. 0:13:36.160 --> 0:13:39.040 But sports was the gateway. 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:41.920 They were like fairness and it was also in the 0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:44.400 language that they used. They language that they used is 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:49.440 not trans women or trans girls in sports. It's biological 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:53.840 men competing against girls. So it's not even like boys 0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:58.320 against girls, it's biological men. So the language again becomes dehumanizing, 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:02.320 it's miss gendering, and so it's been a really effective 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:07.280 propaganda campaign to dehumanize trans people. Say it's not fair, 0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:09.800 you know, trans people in sports, when now we know 0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:12.320 there's there's less than one hundred trans athletes in the 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:16.480 country and the NC doublea of fifteen of or fifteen hundred, 0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:19.440 I think trans athletes there's less than ten, right, So 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:21.840 we're talking about like trans people are less than one 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:25.280 percent of the population, and trans people actually playing sports 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:29.200 there's even fewer. There's this really genius. It just lives 0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:32.200 free in my head. He was the governor of West 0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:35.200 Virginia being interviewed by Stephanie will in MSNBC. He signed 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:36.960 a sports bandage and he was like, you know, we 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:40.080 don't want people taking advantage. You know this bill and dules, 0:14:40.160 --> 0:14:43.360 can you cite anybody you know taking advantage? Because the 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:46.680 theory is like anybody can say that there are trans 0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:49.720 and then compete and dominate, you know, women's sports. 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:51.800 He could name an example. 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:55.480 And so there's laws being passed anti sports bands being 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:58.560 passed in states with no known trans athletes. Maybe there's 0:14:58.600 --> 0:15:01.920 one trans athlete two who The right wing is really 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:04.960 good at making something an issue that isn't an issue 0:15:05.400 --> 0:15:08.480 and then fear mongering around it and then making law 0:15:08.480 --> 0:15:12.720 and policy around it. And people say often say it's 0:15:12.760 --> 0:15:14.640 a distraction, and I don't think it's a distraction. 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:17.360 Took part of their overall agenda. 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:21.080 In my opinion, the big piece is that, I mean, 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:24.640 we saw it with critical race theory, for example, and 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:27.920 it's always a backlash. So I think that, like if 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:30.840 we just stay on trans folks, we had a transiter 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:34.880 tipping point right, trans people were more visible post Orange 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:38.600 and New Black. We had transparent Caitlyn Jenner a year 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:41.240 after I was in the cover Time magazine choosing the 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:46.320 cover Vanity Fair and Caitlyn's transition was international news in 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:48.360 a way that shook the world. 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:50.200 And we had a few. 0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:55.479 Good years of progress, like more a little more representation, 0:15:55.680 --> 0:15:59.600 more influencers, more trans people feeling comfortable coming out. And 0:15:59.800 --> 0:16:03.520 this is the inevitable backlash to that. Whenever I think 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:09.360 CRT emerged the year after critical rights theory emerged. The 0:16:09.440 --> 0:16:13.320 year after Black Lives Matter, the biggest, the largest mass 0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:16.880 protests in like American history, and that happened in twenty twenty. 0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:20.040 The next year, CRT is something that most of us 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:25.600 had never even heard of, becomes the talk of America 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:29.360 and the target and the target right. And so there 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:37.880 is a really well funded, relentless right wing through the 0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:40.200 through thing thanks like Alliance Defending Freedom. They're at the 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:43.160 heart of a lot of the anti abortion, anti LGBTQ 0:16:43.240 --> 0:16:46.760 plus legislation. They write a lot of the legislation. Sometimes 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:50.840 state legislators copy their legislation verbatim. Alliance Defending Freedom and 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:54.680 they started as an anti LGBTQ organization, but they've literally 0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:58.240 been at the Supreme Courts arguing against abortion, against gay rights, 0:16:58.280 --> 0:17:01.400 trans rights. They're really well did a lot and their 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:04.600 global organization obviously they've worked with Heritage Foundation and all 0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:07.080 these other thing tanks as well. And if you read 0:17:07.119 --> 0:17:11.600 a document like Project twenty twenty five, so much of 0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:14.960 the agenda is this Christian nationalist agenda that's returned to 0:17:15.080 --> 0:17:18.960 traditional values. There's a unitary executive theory which is sort 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:20.240 of about power. 0:17:20.480 --> 0:17:22.119 And you know sort of executive branch. 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:25.160 The executive branch is stripping away the deep state and all, 0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:28.040 and we see that happening right that I think they're 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:30.159 like forty nine percent completed. 0:17:30.200 --> 0:17:31.639 If there's a project twenty twenty five. 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:32.480 Track, Yeah, I don't know. 0:17:32.840 --> 0:17:33.640 I think they're like. 0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:36.080 Forty nine percent the last time I checked. So it's 0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:39.080 part of like this Christian nationalist agenda. But there is 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:42.280 this wonderful quote Jason Stanley, who has written a lot 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:45.600 of wonderful books, but he's an expertal fascism. He wrote 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:49.480 with specifically how fascism works. And actually just yesterday I 0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:52.000 was watching an interview with him and Chris Hedges and 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:53.560 he said something that. 0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:55.920 Really it was like I need to write this down. 0:17:56.000 --> 0:17:59.920 And he said that whatever they target are the conceptual 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:04.520 resources you need to see what's going on. Whatever they're 0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:08.040 targeting are the conceptual resources that you need to see 0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:11.240 what's going on. For example, the book bands right, so 0:18:11.400 --> 0:18:14.000 much of what fascism and when he talks about fascism, 0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:18.679 he talks about propaganda, misinformation. He lists he gives like 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:21.280 ten components of it, and any one of these can 0:18:21.320 --> 0:18:22.600 exist without fascism. 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:23.920 But when they all exist. 0:18:24.320 --> 0:18:28.720 We're talking about fascism, and so rewriting history, for example, 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:31.200 is a huge part of that. All the books that 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:35.119 are being banned, any history that might make white people 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:39.880 feel scared or guilty about their past. All the book banning, 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:42.800 I mean, banning Tony Morrison for example. It's just seems 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:47.000 so egregious. But a lot of this, you know, Texasts 0:18:47.000 --> 0:18:48.639 in Florida have been like the kind of you know, 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:51.119 incubators for a lot of the things that we're seeing 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:54.320 on a federal level now. But banning books and changing 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:58.800 history and our access to information is a huge part 0:18:58.840 --> 0:19:02.200 of this. And when he had a press conference to 0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:06.879 Santis banning AP African American history several years I think 0:19:06.920 --> 0:19:09.520 was twenty twenty two, he said, you know, they're not 0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:14.120 teaching AP African American history. They're trying to indoctrinate our children. 0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:18.439 They're throwing in things like, you know, prison abolition and 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:21.240 queer theory. I mean, what does queer theory have to 0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:24.520 do with AP African American history? And then I'm sitting here, 0:19:25.200 --> 0:19:29.000 I sit there as like a black trans woman from 0:19:29.040 --> 0:19:31.359 the South, and I'm like, can I immediately think about 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:34.600 Buyer Rustin who a lot of people now know because 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:37.119 of the film. And I'm like, well, by a resident 0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:41.440 organized the legendary marsh on Washington, where Martin Luther King 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:43.560 made that I have a dream speech that is often 0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:47.560 referenced by a Rustin was a gay man, and I 0:19:47.600 --> 0:19:50.240 think if you're teaching an African American history class, you 0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:52.200 kind of have to talk about the march on Washington, 0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:54.520 and so then you kind of need to talk about 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:55.479 who organize it. 0:19:55.720 --> 0:19:59.280 And I was a gay man, and that's. 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:02.280 And he was queer, So like queer theory like comes 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:05.400 in because of intersectionality. And then literally in the next 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:08.120 sentence he says, they're me including things like intersectionality. 0:20:08.359 --> 0:20:10.080 What does that have to do with anything? I'm like, well, 0:20:10.080 --> 0:20:10.800 that's the answer. 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:13.879 So again, the things that they are attacking are the 0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:17.240 things that we actually need to understand what's going on. 0:20:17.720 --> 0:20:21.280 Because I know that I can't understand my life fully 0:20:21.520 --> 0:20:24.679 in its complexity if I only look through a gender lens. 0:20:24.760 --> 0:20:27.480 I can't understand it effectively. If I only look through 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:30.800 a race lens or a class lens. I understand my 0:20:30.920 --> 0:20:35.240 life as a trans woman, as a transoman of color 0:20:35.280 --> 0:20:37.880 from a working class background who has raised religious who's 0:20:37.880 --> 0:20:42.639 an artist. There is an intersectional there's intersecting identities that 0:20:42.680 --> 0:20:45.760 are affected through power that help me understand not only 0:20:45.880 --> 0:20:49.200 my life but the world around me and how power works. Right, 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:52.360 And so these are the things they want to ban 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:57.240 because they don't want people to have an intersectional understanding. 0:20:57.400 --> 0:21:00.440 They don't want an educated population. I mean funding the 0:21:00.440 --> 0:21:03.280 Apartment of Education is there's a lot of reasons why 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:05.600 they're doing that. Obviously a lot of it is about 0:21:05.800 --> 0:21:08.000 not wanting people to be educated, but I'll say, you 0:21:08.040 --> 0:21:10.560 want to privatize and make a lot of money. So 0:21:10.760 --> 0:21:16.520 the combination of like this predatory capitalism with miseducating people 0:21:17.200 --> 0:21:20.600 and other risings and other rising them us versus them 0:21:20.640 --> 0:21:23.720 as another component of fascism. But trans, when I think 0:21:23.720 --> 0:21:27.080 about that, then I'm like, trans people really are if 0:21:27.080 --> 0:21:29.280 we think about how, because I think trans people are beautiful. 0:21:29.400 --> 0:21:32.280 I started the hashtag trans is beautiful in twenty fifteen. 0:21:32.720 --> 0:21:35.320 It's been like millions of people have since used it. 0:21:35.600 --> 0:21:38.800 But we transiople in so many ways are really the 0:21:38.880 --> 0:21:43.400 answer to a lot of the gender stuff. If we 0:21:44.000 --> 0:21:47.000 look at the lived experiences of trans people, the reality 0:21:47.040 --> 0:21:50.520 of trans people through history, that there are different choices 0:21:50.560 --> 0:21:54.800 we can make around gender, and that's so much about 0:21:54.800 --> 0:21:57.560 what feminism has always been about, that we can make 0:21:57.600 --> 0:22:01.639 different choices as women. But another thing about fascism is 0:22:01.640 --> 0:22:05.080 that equality becomes a threat to the dominant group. The 0:22:05.119 --> 0:22:08.840 dominant group sees equality as oppression, and so then that 0:22:08.920 --> 0:22:12.400 has to be suppressed. So trans people, in so many 0:22:12.480 --> 0:22:15.919 ways are like, if I can live my life on 0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:18.400 my own terms and defind my gender on my own 0:22:18.520 --> 0:22:22.520 terms and be the person I want to be, anybody 0:22:22.560 --> 0:22:25.479 can do it right. And it's not easy. It's not 0:22:25.600 --> 0:22:28.159 like I haven't. There have been obstacles there. They have 0:22:28.200 --> 0:22:30.760 tons of policing of my gender, trying to make me 0:22:31.720 --> 0:22:33.840 a boy or a man, and all that stuff, and 0:22:33.880 --> 0:22:37.439 the ridicule and the physical violence and discrimination, all of 0:22:37.440 --> 0:22:41.680 that was real. But the joy on the other side 0:22:41.720 --> 0:22:46.560 despite all of that is incredible, like being true to 0:22:46.600 --> 0:22:49.639 who you are. So many of us, I think women 0:22:49.720 --> 0:22:53.480 who date straight men, I see so many of them 0:22:53.520 --> 0:22:57.200 in prisons. I see so many of them imprisoned by 0:22:57.480 --> 0:23:00.880 this idea of who they're supposed to be as that's 0:23:00.960 --> 0:23:05.359 not liberatory, that's like still based in domination, and so 0:23:05.560 --> 0:23:08.000 much of the anger. I think that when we see 0:23:08.040 --> 0:23:10.359 the MANI sphere on the Internet, these guys who are 0:23:10.400 --> 0:23:14.119 like pissed off at women and feminism, and they're pissed 0:23:14.200 --> 0:23:17.920 off because the world has told them that they should 0:23:17.960 --> 0:23:18.560 be on top. 0:23:18.800 --> 0:23:19.000 Right. 0:23:19.080 --> 0:23:22.000 They're raised to think that they should be providers and 0:23:22.040 --> 0:23:24.919 that women should be subserving it. Every boy is not 0:23:25.000 --> 0:23:28.360 raised that way, but the culture reinforces it, and then 0:23:29.520 --> 0:23:33.920 wages don't keep up with inflation. Most jobs have been 0:23:33.920 --> 0:23:39.040 shipped overseas, so they actually can't afford to be that 0:23:39.200 --> 0:23:43.040 bread winner, to be that patriarch that they've been told 0:23:43.040 --> 0:23:46.440 that they're supposed to be, and they're frustrated and they 0:23:46.440 --> 0:23:50.000 want someone to blame. And instead of being educated enough 0:23:50.119 --> 0:23:55.440 to blame predatory capitalism, corporations that have shipped jobs overseas, 0:23:55.520 --> 0:24:00.600 depleted manufacturing unions being just you know, death made it, 0:24:00.920 --> 0:24:04.760 et cetera, et cetera. Let's blame immigrants, let's blame trans people, 0:24:04.840 --> 0:24:09.960 let's blame women. And that's what fascism does. I think 0:24:09.960 --> 0:24:12.119 it's so important to call it fascism too, because when 0:24:12.160 --> 0:24:16.560 we don't, it's like we're equivocating and the fear. I 0:24:16.600 --> 0:24:19.000 love what Jason Stanley and this is another note that 0:24:19.040 --> 0:24:22.639 I made about Jason Stanley in his book How Fascism Works, 0:24:22.720 --> 0:24:27.760 names ten components the mythic passed. Right, So make America 0:24:27.760 --> 0:24:30.840 great again. There was a time when America was wonderful. 0:24:30.840 --> 0:24:32.920 There's a time when Germany was wonderful, and we should 0:24:32.960 --> 0:24:35.879 return to that. Many people have asked Trump when it 0:24:35.920 --> 0:24:37.840 was America great. Now he's saying, it's. 0:24:37.680 --> 0:24:41.480 The Gilded Age. Girl. He's like, you've heard me. You're aware, 0:24:41.560 --> 0:24:41.959 so you've heard. 0:24:42.000 --> 0:24:44.080 I'm sure you've heard him talk about how we were 0:24:44.160 --> 0:24:47.040 just so everybody was rich during the Guilded Age. I'm like, 0:24:47.080 --> 0:24:49.280 everybody wasn't rich, girl, Like there are about ten people 0:24:49.280 --> 0:24:50.880 who were rich and the rest of us were, like 0:24:51.200 --> 0:24:54.520 it was child labor and tenement housing. But he's been 0:24:55.080 --> 0:24:59.680 talking about the Guilded Age. Propaganda, the misinformation like that 0:25:00.040 --> 0:25:03.320 pivotal to a fascist state. We see that everywhere, and 0:25:03.359 --> 0:25:08.000 the extent to which they just lie to us, and 0:25:08.080 --> 0:25:11.000 they can with impunity because there's a whole media equosystem 0:25:11.040 --> 0:25:13.320 that's not challenging them. Right, So that way, Steve and 0:25:13.359 --> 0:25:17.240 Miller basically said that nine zero Supreme Court decision was 0:25:17.240 --> 0:25:19.400 actually in their favor, right, like that they would get 0:25:19.480 --> 0:25:22.159 up and lie about that that they blatantly lie about 0:25:22.320 --> 0:25:27.200 just kind of everything at this point, anti intellectualism on 0:25:27.400 --> 0:25:34.160 reality again lies steals like hierarchy, hierarchy again, I'm talking 0:25:34.160 --> 0:25:37.240 about that dominant class, that there is a dominant class, 0:25:37.480 --> 0:25:41.720 that there's you know, men are better, Whites are better, 0:25:42.119 --> 0:25:45.520 you know than Jews, you know historically, but like that hierarchy, right, 0:25:45.600 --> 0:25:47.840 and that like white men should be in let hararky, 0:25:47.840 --> 0:25:49.520 And if you read probably twenty twenty five, it sort 0:25:49.520 --> 0:25:53.280 of talks about God man patriarch in the family and 0:25:53.440 --> 0:25:55.080 those two first and then women and. 0:25:55.240 --> 0:25:58.520 Right and women need to have more children and stay at. 0:25:58.440 --> 0:26:04.640 Home exactly, victimhood and victimhood of the dominant class. Right, 0:26:04.920 --> 0:26:08.000 all of this conversation by reverse racism that white people 0:26:08.000 --> 0:26:11.840 are so being so the most discriminated against people right 0:26:11.880 --> 0:26:14.720 now are white men in America and they're so put 0:26:14.800 --> 0:26:17.520 upon and they're just such victims and we need to 0:26:17.640 --> 0:26:21.399 like fix that all of this anti white racism. 0:26:21.760 --> 0:26:25.960 Well, how about the Africaners coming to America because they've 0:26:25.960 --> 0:26:26.880 been persecuted. 0:26:26.960 --> 0:26:30.800 They've been persecuted in South Africa when seven percent of 0:26:30.840 --> 0:26:37.560 the population owns seventy percent of the land, but they're oppressed. Yeah, victimhood, 0:26:38.119 --> 0:26:41.200 law and order. So the law and order piece becomes 0:26:41.760 --> 0:26:45.560 in a dictatorial, authoritarian way. That law and order piece 0:26:45.640 --> 0:26:48.480 becomes like and we see it, and it's so sad. 0:26:48.800 --> 0:26:52.720 What the law is is what Trump says it is. 0:26:53.000 --> 0:26:55.560 I mean we see very clearly in that press conference 0:26:55.600 --> 0:26:59.000 with the Governor of Maine when he's like, is she 0:26:59.119 --> 0:27:01.560 here are you and follow our order to like band 0:27:01.560 --> 0:27:03.800 transits to see you in court. She says, see you 0:27:03.840 --> 0:27:05.680 in court, and she says, I'm going to follow the law. 0:27:05.680 --> 0:27:06.960 I'm going to file the state in para la. And 0:27:07.000 --> 0:27:07.720 he says, we. 0:27:07.800 --> 0:27:08.480 Are the law. 0:27:09.480 --> 0:27:11.000 And by the way, she won and. 0:27:11.000 --> 0:27:13.560 She won, yeah, which is really beautiful. 0:27:13.880 --> 0:27:17.560 But the way he's defied the Supreme Court and the 0:27:17.560 --> 0:27:20.000 Supreme Court enabled it obviously with the immunity. 0:27:20.119 --> 0:27:21.840 Oh the Supreme Court. What a mess. 0:27:22.359 --> 0:27:26.040 But the law and order becomes whatever he says it is. 0:27:33.840 --> 0:27:36.240 Hi everyone, it's me Katie Couric. You know, if you've 0:27:36.280 --> 0:27:39.040 been following me on social media, you know I love 0:27:39.080 --> 0:27:42.240 to cook, or at least try, especially alongside some of 0:27:42.280 --> 0:27:46.000 my favorite chefs and foodies like Benny Blanco, Jake Cohen, 0:27:46.080 --> 0:27:50.439 Lighty Hoik, Alison Roman, and Ina Garten. So I started 0:27:50.440 --> 0:27:54.000 a free newsletter called good Taste to share recipes, tips 0:27:54.040 --> 0:27:57.960 and kitchen mustafs. Just sign up at Katiecuric dot com 0:27:58.000 --> 0:28:01.520 slash good Taste. That's a t I E c O 0:28:01.720 --> 0:28:05.840 U r ic dot com slash good Taste. I promise 0:28:06.160 --> 0:28:17.800 your taste buds will be happy you did. It also 0:28:18.160 --> 0:28:21.840 takes attention away from a movement that was gaining so 0:28:22.000 --> 0:28:25.880 much steam that resulted in Black Lives Matter, George Floyd 0:28:26.560 --> 0:28:32.440 and a true examination of bias in police departments and 0:28:33.000 --> 0:28:37.600 police brutality. And now nobody is talking about it. 0:28:37.600 --> 0:28:42.200 It's been demonized so successfully and without any pushback. And 0:28:42.240 --> 0:28:45.840 I think that, like so many people like because he won, 0:28:46.520 --> 0:28:49.440 because they're in power, we have to capitulate to power, 0:28:49.760 --> 0:28:54.000 and so conversations about implicit bias, those conversations are like 0:28:54.040 --> 0:28:57.480 they're too woke. They make it unpopular, and then so 0:28:57.600 --> 0:29:00.080 the conversation is no longer, so no one wants to 0:29:00.120 --> 0:29:02.480 talk about it, and it's bad to talk about it, 0:29:02.480 --> 0:29:05.800 and then it's banned. It's actually banned to talk about 0:29:05.840 --> 0:29:11.080 it at Columbia University. Now, anything that suggests DEI, that suggests, 0:29:11.160 --> 0:29:14.760 I mean the way he's taken over Columbia University is atrocious. 0:29:14.320 --> 0:29:17.240 And the way they've allowed that, it's horrible. 0:29:17.560 --> 0:29:21.680 Sexual anxiety, the sexual anxiety piece is really about the 0:29:21.680 --> 0:29:24.160 trans folks. It's about the trans folks, it's about gay 0:29:24.200 --> 0:29:27.600 and lesbian people. It's about women being in their place. 0:29:28.960 --> 0:29:32.480 So if you think about vymar Berlin, right, but this 0:29:32.800 --> 0:29:40.360 very very liberal progressive society in Berlin, uninhibited environment, uninhibited 0:29:40.440 --> 0:29:44.400 environment that actually was very open and accepting to trans 0:29:44.400 --> 0:29:47.760 people and gay and lesbian people. Magnus Hirschfeld had an 0:29:47.800 --> 0:29:52.200 Institute for Sexuality and Berlin. It started in nineteen nineteen 0:29:52.280 --> 0:29:55.480 and then existed until you know, the Nazis. The first 0:29:55.640 --> 0:29:59.000 major Brooke burning that happened was of Magnus Hirschfeld's research 0:29:59.080 --> 0:30:02.760 was of trans research, research into gain lesbian folks. Magnet 0:30:02.760 --> 0:30:05.240 Schurst film made it possible for trans people to have 0:30:05.280 --> 0:30:08.320 an ID document in Berlin to like identify them as 0:30:08.360 --> 0:30:10.760 trans so they could like just have rights that other 0:30:10.800 --> 0:30:13.720 people could have. In the nineteen thirties, let's say so, 0:30:13.960 --> 0:30:18.600 Major and Hitler and his regime saw this as a 0:30:18.720 --> 0:30:23.040 huge problem, and that first book burning happened. And we 0:30:23.160 --> 0:30:27.080 know that with pink triangles that like gay folks and 0:30:27.120 --> 0:30:29.840 trans people were also in concentration camps, and I didn't 0:30:29.880 --> 0:30:33.080 know this until the Aides Movement Act Up reclaimed the 0:30:33.120 --> 0:30:35.760 pink triangle as a sign of persecution in the eighties. 0:30:36.200 --> 0:30:41.920 So all this sexual anxiety is also a part of fascism. Next, 0:30:41.960 --> 0:30:44.760 Sodom and Goamoor. When he talks about Sodom Moore, he 0:30:44.800 --> 0:30:49.480 talks about it's really cities versus rule. That in the cities, 0:30:49.960 --> 0:30:53.400 this is horrible Sodom and Gomora, awful things happening to 0:30:53.520 --> 0:30:55.760 the crime in the sties, when whenever we hear Republicans 0:30:55.840 --> 0:30:58.840 talking about, you know, crime Chicago, Baltimore, and you know 0:30:58.960 --> 0:31:01.440 black and black crime and all these things happening in 0:31:01.520 --> 0:31:05.720 like Democrat or blue cities versus like our safe suburbs 0:31:05.760 --> 0:31:08.600 and our rural areas. So that, like dichotomy between Solom 0:31:08.640 --> 0:31:11.080 and Golmore, is another a spect of fascism. And then 0:31:11.080 --> 0:31:13.840 the third one is it's a phrase I cannot say 0:31:14.120 --> 0:31:17.760 because it's in German. This last one I break mach 0:31:18.120 --> 0:31:21.280 free and I forget exactly what how he broke that 0:31:21.320 --> 0:31:23.840 one down. But all of these things are happening right now, 0:31:24.160 --> 0:31:27.120 and so I think like it's important because a lot 0:31:27.160 --> 0:31:29.200 of people, like even John Stewart was reluctant to call 0:31:29.240 --> 0:31:31.800 this fascism. And I think that when we look at 0:31:32.120 --> 0:31:34.640 not just a general definition of fascism, but what are 0:31:34.640 --> 0:31:37.600 the components of fascism, and we break them down and 0:31:37.640 --> 0:31:40.040 look at them in relationship to what's going on now, 0:31:40.560 --> 0:31:43.720 this is fascism. And so with that in mind, it's 0:31:43.840 --> 0:31:48.040 like then when we see you know, people like you know, 0:31:48.080 --> 0:31:52.320 Gavin Newsom or even thinking wit More, you know, sort 0:31:52.320 --> 0:31:55.880 of standing with Trump, these Democrats sort of standing with Trump, it's. 0:31:55.800 --> 0:31:58.960 Well, they don't really stand with Trump. No, well, well, 0:31:59.000 --> 0:32:01.640 I mean when they need certain things for their. 0:32:01.520 --> 0:32:04.920 State more I did do an event or something with him. 0:32:05.520 --> 0:32:09.360 I think that from what I understand, they are trying 0:32:09.440 --> 0:32:13.200 to have some kind of relationship because a lot of 0:32:13.240 --> 0:32:19.000 their states welfare depends on federal dollars. And my understanding 0:32:19.080 --> 0:32:22.320 Laverne and I should check this was she had a 0:32:22.360 --> 0:32:24.560 meeting and she didn't realize it was going to be 0:32:24.720 --> 0:32:28.720 like a photo op, and I think she was sort 0:32:28.720 --> 0:32:31.680 of embarrassed about it. From what I read, How. 0:32:31.560 --> 0:32:35.080 Do you work with when he is taking away state funding, 0:32:35.120 --> 0:32:39.360 if you know, capitulate when he's retaliating if you against journalists, 0:32:39.400 --> 0:32:41.840 against people who sue him, law firms. 0:32:41.600 --> 0:32:42.640 Law firm exactly. 0:32:43.080 --> 0:32:46.320 It's scary, and it's actually scary to actually speak up 0:32:46.400 --> 0:32:50.480 against what he's doing because he's very retaliatory in many ways. 0:32:50.880 --> 0:32:53.520 A streamer, Hassan Piker would just recently returned to the 0:32:53.520 --> 0:32:56.040 country and was pulled aside in Global Entry and asked 0:32:56.080 --> 0:32:59.160 all these questions about what he does, and he's controversy 0:32:59.160 --> 0:33:01.120 in live ways, but he's left to streamer and he 0:33:01.280 --> 0:33:04.000 was like, you know, detaining he's an American citizen. Eventually 0:33:04.040 --> 0:33:06.280 he was let go, but they, you know, stopped him 0:33:06.280 --> 0:33:07.920 and questioned this American citizen. 0:33:08.040 --> 0:33:12.480 A lot of intimidation happening and death threats even from 0:33:12.840 --> 0:33:15.720 some followers for judges and things like that. 0:33:15.920 --> 0:33:18.680 So the trans piece is part of it. It's part 0:33:18.720 --> 0:33:23.000 of a larger project. And for me, it's always been 0:33:23.600 --> 0:33:28.200 amazing watching the ambidextrous nature of Republicans once they get 0:33:28.200 --> 0:33:31.239 into power that they weren't just passing. I think this 0:33:31.360 --> 0:33:34.360 year is like nine hundred anti trans laws have been 0:33:34.360 --> 0:33:36.440 introduced in state legislatures. 0:33:36.560 --> 0:33:38.880 I know there have been eight executive orders. 0:33:38.640 --> 0:33:41.960 Eighty executive orders, nine hundred. I thought we had got 0:33:41.960 --> 0:33:44.360 to five hundred like last year. I was like, okay, 0:33:44.400 --> 0:33:48.560 that's but nine hundred anti translots is like, what what 0:33:48.600 --> 0:33:51.440 are we doing? But I think it's also important to 0:33:51.480 --> 0:33:54.600 note that when they couldn't get bathroom bands through in 0:33:54.640 --> 0:33:58.480 twenty sixteen, they've gotten them through now that sports was 0:33:58.520 --> 0:34:02.360 the trojan horse. Then they were like, they're attacking the children, 0:34:02.760 --> 0:34:07.520 and what about children, demonizing healthcare for children that the 0:34:07.840 --> 0:34:11.120 American Medical Association, of the American Academy of Beadrez, the INCANCIDE, 0:34:11.320 --> 0:34:14.360 every reputable sort of medical institution is said that gender 0:34:14.400 --> 0:34:17.000 firming care is the best course of action, and then 0:34:17.040 --> 0:34:20.680 they've demonized that. A lot of it is about misinformation 0:34:20.840 --> 0:34:23.319 about trans people. A lot of it is still when 0:34:23.360 --> 0:34:26.640 people think about trans people, they think about surgery. Right. 0:34:26.719 --> 0:34:29.600 They don't understand that gender firming care, particularly for a 0:34:29.680 --> 0:34:34.080 pre prevescent child, is just a name change, maybe growing 0:34:34.080 --> 0:34:36.439 out their hair or cutting their hair, and they wear 0:34:36.440 --> 0:34:42.040 different clothes. No one pre pubescent is having any surgery. 0:34:42.760 --> 0:34:46.279 First of all, the very few people really under the 0:34:46.280 --> 0:34:49.000 age of eighteen are having surgery exactly. 0:34:49.320 --> 0:34:55.000 And then hormone blockers are in fact reversible like these 0:34:55.000 --> 0:34:55.239 are in. 0:34:55.280 --> 0:34:57.479 This they say've been studied enough. 0:34:57.560 --> 0:35:02.560 They say that, but we mormone blockers have existed probably 0:35:02.560 --> 0:35:05.600 since the seventies or eighties for precocious puberty, so they 0:35:05.600 --> 0:35:09.680 actually have been studied. And literally it was an Arkansas 0:35:10.000 --> 0:35:15.120 They argued in court that hormone blockers for CIS kids 0:35:15.160 --> 0:35:19.840 for precocious puberty healthy fine, but for trans kids no. 0:35:20.880 --> 0:35:22.719 So the same medication. 0:35:22.960 --> 0:35:26.120 That would block puberty for precocious puberty is healthy for 0:35:26.160 --> 0:35:29.160 a CIST child, but it's not healthy for a trans child. 0:35:30.160 --> 0:35:34.239 Just defies logic and it's clearly bigotry. They don't want 0:35:34.239 --> 0:35:37.359 trans people to exist, have the ability to transition and 0:35:37.600 --> 0:35:41.600 live our lives authentically, period point blank. How are they 0:35:41.640 --> 0:35:44.479 safe for CIS kids and not safe for trans kids? 0:35:44.880 --> 0:35:48.480 You can't like, actually look up puberty blockers like online. 0:35:48.560 --> 0:35:51.000 It's everything's trans transtrands, So you have to look up 0:35:51.040 --> 0:35:55.239 prokosis puberty to actually do research on puberty blockers and 0:35:55.280 --> 0:35:57.839 progosis puberty. And when you do that research, a lot 0:35:57.880 --> 0:36:02.040 of it's about if you developed to early, you have 0:36:02.160 --> 0:36:05.120 a growth spurt, but then that growth spurt stops at 0:36:05.360 --> 0:36:08.040 like eleven twelve, and then a lot of kids want 0:36:08.040 --> 0:36:09.759 to go through puberty with their peers. 0:36:09.920 --> 0:36:12.440 But then there is a bone issue if you go 0:36:12.520 --> 0:36:13.480 through puberty too. 0:36:13.360 --> 0:36:17.399 Early, and so part of the work of into chronologists 0:36:17.520 --> 0:36:20.440 with proghosist puberty is studying like your bone growth of 0:36:20.520 --> 0:36:23.439 the child, and this has been happening for decades, right, 0:36:23.719 --> 0:36:25.960 And so when you go off the puberty blockers and 0:36:26.000 --> 0:36:28.239 you have the puberty there you're supposed to have at 0:36:28.239 --> 0:36:32.640 any age, the only issue is potential bone density loss. 0:36:32.760 --> 0:36:35.839 But that's only if you're on them a really long time. 0:36:36.000 --> 0:36:38.759 Usually it's you know, no more than four years, because 0:36:38.800 --> 0:36:41.120 you make a decision if you're trans, to either go 0:36:41.160 --> 0:36:44.720 on hormones or not, and you go off the puberty 0:36:44.760 --> 0:36:48.920 blockers and then you do hormone replacement therapy. And at 0:36:48.920 --> 0:36:51.840 the end of the day, though, for me, why is 0:36:51.880 --> 0:36:56.000 it anybody's business, Like, I think any left leaning person, 0:36:56.040 --> 0:36:59.080 obviously the Republicans and Conservists wanted to make this an issue, 0:36:59.120 --> 0:37:02.120 But any left leaning person that's that capitulated to saying 0:37:02.160 --> 0:37:04.640 that it's up for debate whether trans kids should have 0:37:04.719 --> 0:37:07.400 access to gender from and care, I think I've already 0:37:07.400 --> 0:37:10.160 conceded the argument, and we're having the argument on the 0:37:10.160 --> 0:37:14.320 oppressor's terms. When a kid has cancer and the doctor 0:37:14.400 --> 0:37:17.840 says we should be doing this care to save their lives. 0:37:18.120 --> 0:37:20.600 There's not a public debate about that. There's not, like, 0:37:21.000 --> 0:37:23.680 you know, from people who aren't healthcare professionals, who aren't like, 0:37:23.920 --> 0:37:25.759 what do I know about cancer research? What do I 0:37:25.760 --> 0:37:28.319 know about how to treat kids with cancer? Don't it's 0:37:28.320 --> 0:37:30.879 not up for debate. But when it's trans people, it's 0:37:30.880 --> 0:37:34.400 something we have to debate because you know, these trans 0:37:34.440 --> 0:37:37.279 people and I don't understand it, and what are they 0:37:37.320 --> 0:37:40.839 doing and and it's a dehumanization of trans people. It's 0:37:40.880 --> 0:37:44.680 a mis education and misunderstanding of us. But that's by design. 0:37:45.440 --> 0:37:48.440 When I was on your show, and probably for a 0:37:48.440 --> 0:37:50.600 couple of years after that, when they would talk about 0:37:50.640 --> 0:37:52.680 trans issues, they would actually bring on trans people. 0:37:53.320 --> 0:37:56.680 For the past five years or so, tons of. 0:37:56.640 --> 0:38:01.000 Conversations about trans people with narya transperson insight in the media. 0:38:01.120 --> 0:38:02.920 They don't want to talk to us because when we 0:38:03.200 --> 0:38:06.759 talk to trans people, we become human beings and not 0:38:06.960 --> 0:38:11.040 these sort of monsters or caricatures that they can kind 0:38:11.080 --> 0:38:12.360 of like make up things. 0:38:12.400 --> 0:38:17.640 About forty percent of trans children now live in states 0:38:17.719 --> 0:38:23.520 that have banned any kind of intervention puberty blocker's hormone therapy, 0:38:24.080 --> 0:38:27.279 and it's made me wonder a lot since I've met 0:38:27.320 --> 0:38:30.080 a lot of trans families when I did my documentary 0:38:30.080 --> 0:38:35.040 in twenty eighteen, the impact this is having on these families. 0:38:35.960 --> 0:38:37.080 Can you talk about that? 0:38:38.239 --> 0:38:42.160 This is when it gets hard for me, for you know, 0:38:44.000 --> 0:38:45.160 it was twenty it was two years ago. 0:38:45.160 --> 0:38:48.600 I was in twenty twenty two after Dilomovany calls it 0:38:48.640 --> 0:38:50.880 beer gate in her vot. But when butt Light, you know, 0:38:51.200 --> 0:38:53.359 had that moment and kit Rock was shooting up butt 0:38:53.440 --> 0:38:56.440 lights and then target people were sort of terrorizing target 0:38:56.440 --> 0:39:00.399 workers because they had pride merchandise. I was like, We've 0:39:00.440 --> 0:39:03.359 lost We've lost the culture. I was like, We've lost 0:39:03.400 --> 0:39:07.000 the culture. And that year, close to half the country 0:39:07.040 --> 0:39:09.839 had banned de firming care for young people, and there 0:39:09.880 --> 0:39:11.960 were all these things are being challenged in courts, but 0:39:12.080 --> 0:39:15.719 there is so many families who were making decisions to 0:39:15.800 --> 0:39:19.560 flee states, to flee Texas, to flee Florida, to flee states, 0:39:19.600 --> 0:39:22.920 and then these were families who could afford to do it, And. 0:39:24.600 --> 0:39:25.600 It just broke my heart. 0:39:25.600 --> 0:39:27.400 I spent a lot of time crying and just and 0:39:27.520 --> 0:39:30.480 kind of feeling like as a public figure, like, what 0:39:30.640 --> 0:39:31.800 more could I be doing? 0:39:32.160 --> 0:39:33.560 Have I somehow failed? 0:39:33.560 --> 0:39:35.879 As this is my fault because we're so visible now 0:39:35.880 --> 0:39:38.080 and they were kind of ignoring us. So I've had 0:39:38.120 --> 0:39:41.160 a lot of feelings about it. But it's devastating, and 0:39:41.200 --> 0:39:45.920 you hear from these families and they relocate. There's some cities, 0:39:46.000 --> 0:39:48.840 like places like Minnesota that have become sort of sanctuary 0:39:48.920 --> 0:39:52.120 states for trans people. So if you can afford to relocate, 0:39:52.200 --> 0:39:55.359 right the whole family's relocating. Sometimes what happens is that 0:39:55.440 --> 0:39:58.160 like if there's a two parent household, like the mother 0:39:58.320 --> 0:40:00.839 and kids will go and then the fall will stay 0:40:00.840 --> 0:40:03.560 back and work, or vice versa if they have a 0:40:03.560 --> 0:40:05.640 better job. Because you have to get a new job 0:40:05.680 --> 0:40:07.360 in a new state, you have to be able for 0:40:07.520 --> 0:40:07.960 to do it. 0:40:08.120 --> 0:40:09.640 A lot of people can't afford to do it. 0:40:09.760 --> 0:40:12.040 And then even when you think about getting access to 0:40:12.080 --> 0:40:14.560 gender or firming care as a young person, it's actually 0:40:14.560 --> 0:40:18.680 a really privileged thing. A lot of insurance doesn't actually 0:40:18.719 --> 0:40:22.919 cover gender affirming care still for adults or children. They're 0:40:22.920 --> 0:40:25.200 actually supposed to cover it according to Affordable Care Act, 0:40:25.200 --> 0:40:28.880 but that's been challenged and so many different ways. But 0:40:28.960 --> 0:40:31.239 the devastation of a family having a move, and then 0:40:31.360 --> 0:40:33.279 if you do have to stay in a state that 0:40:33.400 --> 0:40:36.960 discriminates against you, then where you have to go to 0:40:37.000 --> 0:40:39.319 another state sometimes to get a gender firm in care. 0:40:39.400 --> 0:40:43.439 There was the main clinic in the South where young 0:40:43.480 --> 0:40:45.920 people were going to get gender firming care was actually 0:40:45.960 --> 0:40:49.560 the University of Alabama either Birmingham tessk Loosen. 0:40:49.600 --> 0:40:50.360 I'm from Alabama. 0:40:50.680 --> 0:40:54.080 When the band happened in Alabama, then that clinic was 0:40:54.080 --> 0:40:56.719 closed down. So all these people in the South who 0:40:56.719 --> 0:40:58.719 were going to Alabama to get gender firm in care 0:40:58.719 --> 0:41:02.000 for their kids don't have that resource anymore. There is 0:41:02.040 --> 0:41:05.120 a wonderful organization called Campaign for Souther Inequality that for 0:41:05.239 --> 0:41:08.520 many years has been raising money and if people can 0:41:08.560 --> 0:41:11.040 afford to donate to them, been raising money to give 0:41:11.080 --> 0:41:15.239 scholarships to families to get them to a state where 0:41:15.239 --> 0:41:17.560 their child can get access to gender firm in care, 0:41:18.040 --> 0:41:20.359 get them to a state to transport them either by 0:41:20.440 --> 0:41:23.080 car plane, get them a hotel state so they can 0:41:23.120 --> 0:41:26.200 just visit a doctor, and also to relocate if they 0:41:26.280 --> 0:41:28.560 need to. So this has been happening for years and 0:41:28.600 --> 0:41:32.799 the demand is really strong. And also what happens when 0:41:33.000 --> 0:41:36.360 people are migrating places like New York and California, the 0:41:36.840 --> 0:41:41.120 gender affirming clinics are overrun and there's long wait lists 0:41:41.200 --> 0:41:44.200 because so many people have migrated, and so the people 0:41:44.200 --> 0:41:46.440 who already are in New York are having hard times 0:41:46.480 --> 0:41:50.200 getting appointments, is what I'm hearing. Or in California or 0:41:50.280 --> 0:41:53.040 San Francisco, where you can get access to gender firming care, 0:41:53.719 --> 0:41:56.640 wait times so longer because so many people have fled 0:41:56.640 --> 0:41:58.160 states where they can get access. 0:41:58.480 --> 0:42:01.480 What about those people love learned who can't afford to leave, 0:42:01.600 --> 0:42:06.080 who haven't been supported through the fund you mentioned or 0:42:06.200 --> 0:42:12.000 other resources. They are stuck in states that refuse to 0:42:12.080 --> 0:42:12.560 help them. 0:42:13.120 --> 0:42:17.480 They don't have the opportunity to transition. They There's always 0:42:17.520 --> 0:42:19.799 been black markets for us. 0:42:19.880 --> 0:42:20.880 Was just going to ask you about that. 0:42:21.080 --> 0:42:24.160 It's always been black markets for gender firm and care. 0:42:24.840 --> 0:42:29.400 And that's kind of where my focus is right now. 0:42:29.520 --> 0:42:32.480 Not necessarily a black market, but like mutual aid. And 0:42:32.640 --> 0:42:35.440 there's a history like when I started transitioning in nineteen 0:42:35.600 --> 0:42:38.319 ninety eight, there was a doctor that had access to 0:42:38.680 --> 0:42:42.439 here in New York and he retired like a year 0:42:42.480 --> 0:42:45.360 after I started with him, and before I discovered calm Lord. 0:42:45.680 --> 0:42:48.440 Then there was this guy named Ralph who had hormones 0:42:48.480 --> 0:42:51.279 for the girls. And he found out about Ralph and 0:42:51.320 --> 0:42:52.960 he would love it when we were all together, so 0:42:53.000 --> 0:42:54.919 we can sell to a lot of girls. And Ralph 0:42:54.960 --> 0:42:57.080 would come to my house and I'd buy hormones from Ralph. 0:42:57.120 --> 0:42:59.120 I don't know where he got them from. I wasn't 0:42:59.120 --> 0:43:02.000 getting blood worked. So like, these are the things you 0:43:02.040 --> 0:43:07.719 know that like, trans people have always gotten access to 0:43:07.840 --> 0:43:09.880 gender firm and care at various ages. 0:43:10.440 --> 0:43:11.799 If you know trans. 0:43:11.480 --> 0:43:16.480 Folks legal, illegal, we've always gotten access. There's a wonderful 0:43:16.560 --> 0:43:19.080 story that Susan Striker, who literally wrote the book on 0:43:19.120 --> 0:43:22.040 Transhi history. She's a professor in Arizona. She told me 0:43:22.080 --> 0:43:24.680 a story that she interviewed Miss Major Griffith Gracie, who 0:43:24.760 --> 0:43:27.400 was a Stonewall legend. She was also part of the 0:43:27.520 --> 0:43:30.640 Attaka Riots. And she's still alive. She's in her eighties, 0:43:30.680 --> 0:43:34.560 I think. And she was fifteen years old in Chicago 0:43:34.680 --> 0:43:37.440 in nineteen fifty five and told a story about the 0:43:37.520 --> 0:43:40.280 fifteen year old like the sex workers in Chicago's interesting 0:43:40.320 --> 0:43:42.280 sex work in nineteen fifty five and on the streets 0:43:42.280 --> 0:43:45.239 of Chicago, And she said the girls had hormones in 0:43:45.320 --> 0:43:48.560 nineteen fifty five and so when I think about that history, 0:43:48.560 --> 0:43:50.880 I'm like, this is a few years after Christine Jorgenson, 0:43:51.160 --> 0:43:54.040 and then hormones were possible, and the girls were like, 0:43:54.400 --> 0:43:56.600 we're getting these hormones, and so they found a way 0:43:56.680 --> 0:44:00.800 to get access to hormones to transition and earth control bills. 0:44:00.840 --> 0:44:04.279 But obviously you always want a healthier way to do it, 0:44:04.480 --> 0:44:07.279 like I since I've been on you know, it's been 0:44:07.640 --> 0:44:10.279 twenty seven years, Like I get blood work twice a year. 0:44:10.760 --> 0:44:13.120 You want to get your hypothalamus checked, you want to 0:44:13.160 --> 0:44:15.080 get make sure your blood closed. There are things you 0:44:15.120 --> 0:44:17.400 want to make sure that you're you're healthy with with 0:44:17.560 --> 0:44:21.160 your transition, and though when it's criminalized, you don't get 0:44:21.239 --> 0:44:24.960 that access, but trans people have always found a way. 0:44:25.360 --> 0:44:28.200 And so now what I'm interested in is like how 0:44:28.320 --> 0:44:33.520 we as a community come together and support each other 0:44:33.760 --> 0:44:36.520 in the face of a government that is really not 0:44:37.040 --> 0:44:40.400 going to be effectively there for us. And so we 0:44:40.600 --> 0:44:42.960 have to really look at infighting, at the ways in 0:44:43.080 --> 0:44:46.080 which that US versus them to pieces and another part 0:44:46.080 --> 0:44:50.360 of fascism that we don't allow divide and conquer tactics 0:44:50.520 --> 0:44:54.400 to divide us as communities within LGBTQ communities, there's this 0:44:54.520 --> 0:44:58.719 conversation happening now that's not new, but it's popularized again. 0:44:58.800 --> 0:45:01.440 I think because the Trump adminished as the Trump Administration 0:45:01.640 --> 0:45:05.239 is like left lg and B on different websites that 0:45:05.360 --> 0:45:08.480 have taken out the t It's like these conversations have 0:45:08.560 --> 0:45:11.960 been happening in LGBTQ plus community since civil rights has 0:45:12.000 --> 0:45:12.560 been an issue. 0:45:12.960 --> 0:45:17.240 Is there infighting right now within the LGBTQ plus. 0:45:17.239 --> 0:45:19.360 Oh yeah, a lot of There's a lot of people 0:45:19.880 --> 0:45:22.560 who are saying that the trans people have taken it 0:45:22.640 --> 0:45:25.160 too far with pronouns and the non binary people and 0:45:25.200 --> 0:45:27.840 they've messed it up for all of us. That conversation 0:45:27.960 --> 0:45:31.600 is happening now online, but that's not a new conversation. 0:45:32.080 --> 0:45:35.080 That is a conversation that's been going on for decades 0:45:35.120 --> 0:45:38.799 when it comes to those gay, lesbian, and bisexual people 0:45:38.800 --> 0:45:40.880 who are a little more respectable and have always felt 0:45:40.920 --> 0:45:43.640 like drag queens and trans people and non binary. 0:45:43.280 --> 0:45:44.279 People were not. 0:45:45.840 --> 0:45:47.080 Good looks, second class. 0:45:47.440 --> 0:45:49.560 Yeah, I mean there's a there's I mean, historically, there's 0:45:49.600 --> 0:45:53.680 a there's an iconic video of Sylvia Rivera, who was 0:45:54.120 --> 0:45:55.680 literally their night. 0:45:55.680 --> 0:45:57.120 One of the Stonewall rebellion. 0:45:57.680 --> 0:45:59.759 Stem Wall lasted for like I think about five days 0:45:59.800 --> 0:46:03.000 for week where they were fighting the police because they 0:46:03.040 --> 0:46:06.640 were just tired of, you know, being criminalized as LGBTQ 0:46:06.800 --> 0:46:10.560 plus folks. She was there night one, Silvia Rivera and 0:46:11.400 --> 0:46:14.920 a founder as she founded Star Street, this organization called 0:46:14.920 --> 0:46:17.040 Street Transvestite Action Revolutionaries. 0:46:17.280 --> 0:46:18.600 She and Marsha P. Johnson. 0:46:18.680 --> 0:46:22.200 They were doing direct a two trans people, housing them, 0:46:22.239 --> 0:46:25.040 they were doing sex work and getting like an apartment 0:46:25.080 --> 0:46:26.719 where all the girls can stay so they wouldn't be 0:46:26.760 --> 0:46:29.680 on the street at night, and getting them fed, just 0:46:29.840 --> 0:46:33.960 real basic stuff when they were incarcerated. When transfer were incarcerated, 0:46:34.000 --> 0:46:36.960 because it was illegal to be trans on the street, 0:46:37.040 --> 0:46:39.120 you had to have three articles of clothing, so we 0:46:39.239 --> 0:46:40.680 were routinely arrested. 0:46:41.000 --> 0:46:43.959 They would go and bail the girls out of jail. 0:46:44.120 --> 0:46:49.239 They were doing grassroots activism directly for the community, and 0:46:49.440 --> 0:46:52.360 she was one of the reasons that Stonewall in the 0:46:52.560 --> 0:46:57.120 modern LGBTQ civil rights movement happened in nineteen seventy four 0:46:57.960 --> 0:47:00.480 at the Pride Rally become Pride I think by this 0:47:00.640 --> 0:47:03.560 time and not just scale liberation movement. They did not 0:47:03.640 --> 0:47:05.920 want her to speak. They did not want her to 0:47:05.920 --> 0:47:08.200 speak on the station She had to fight her way 0:47:08.280 --> 0:47:12.480 onto the stage, and people booed her as she finally 0:47:12.560 --> 0:47:14.960 got onto the stage, and she's like, you need to 0:47:15.160 --> 0:47:18.760 quiet down. I've gotten my nose broken for gay liberation, 0:47:18.840 --> 0:47:21.360 she said at the time, I've been raped, I've been arrested, 0:47:21.800 --> 0:47:23.000 and you treat me this way. 0:47:23.719 --> 0:47:27.560 Nineteen seventy four. So it's not new, girl. 0:47:27.600 --> 0:47:30.839 I can go on about other examples of how kay 0:47:30.920 --> 0:47:33.240 and lesbian folks. If you think about SONDA, the Sexual 0:47:33.360 --> 0:47:36.239 Orientation on Discrimination Act that was passed in New York State, 0:47:36.280 --> 0:47:39.040 and think in two thousand and one that initially included 0:47:39.040 --> 0:47:40.800 trans people, and we're not going to get this passed 0:47:40.800 --> 0:47:42.799 if we include trans people. So it took the trans 0:47:42.880 --> 0:47:45.480 people out, got SONDA passed, and then we'll get to 0:47:45.520 --> 0:47:49.680 you later trans people. Eighteen years later, the Gender Expression 0:47:49.719 --> 0:47:52.480 Non Discrimination Act passed. I was going at almany like 0:47:52.680 --> 0:47:55.279 almost every year for Equality and Justice Day talking to 0:47:55.400 --> 0:48:00.560 legislators about gender and it took eighteen years for us 0:48:00.680 --> 0:48:03.200 to have legal productions in New York State. So this 0:48:03.440 --> 0:48:08.800 is not new, but it's a tactic that the Trump 0:48:08.840 --> 0:48:12.040 administration is like now that like people outside the community 0:48:12.120 --> 0:48:14.400 because they're dropping the tea and keeping L and B. 0:48:14.719 --> 0:48:17.040 They're like, let's it's the trans people's fault. 0:48:17.200 --> 0:48:19.880 And so again it's another divide and conqueror strategy that 0:48:19.960 --> 0:48:22.919 we should resist because at the end of the day, 0:48:23.760 --> 0:48:26.960 the Trump administration is coming for I think it's very 0:48:27.000 --> 0:48:31.040 important to understand that. When Dobbs was overturned, Clarence Thomas 0:48:31.120 --> 0:48:34.560 wrote a concurrent opinion. He said any decision that was 0:48:34.680 --> 0:48:38.760 made based on the Fourteenth Amendment and substantive due process 0:48:38.840 --> 0:48:44.720 should be revisited, including Lawrence v. Texas, which basically decriminalized 0:48:44.760 --> 0:48:52.040 gay sex, Griswold versus Connecticut, which decriminalized contraception for married couples, Obergefeld, 0:48:52.080 --> 0:48:56.000 which legalized gay marriage. He said, all of these decisions 0:48:56.080 --> 0:48:59.239 need to be revisited. And then late a few months later, 0:48:59.680 --> 0:49:02.120 cong Grace the Republicans, who had a majority in Congress 0:49:02.160 --> 0:49:05.280 at the time, voted whether there should be gay marriage, 0:49:05.440 --> 0:49:08.040 and the majority I think two hundred and fifty something 0:49:08.160 --> 0:49:11.880 Republicans in the House voted against gay marriage, voted against 0:49:12.160 --> 0:49:16.080 right to contraception, voted against the RATU and abortion. Obviously, 0:49:16.200 --> 0:49:18.680 they didn't have the Senate to do this, but if 0:49:19.200 --> 0:49:22.920 it's up to Republicans, they want to ban a right 0:49:23.000 --> 0:49:27.399 to contraception, to abortion and gay marriage. So it's really 0:49:27.520 --> 0:49:32.239 important that we don't succumb to divide and conquer strategies 0:49:32.400 --> 0:49:36.160 as diverse communities. And so when I think about this, 0:49:36.360 --> 0:49:39.640 I don't think about just LGBTQ plus or straight people 0:49:39.800 --> 0:49:43.160 or non trans people. I think about working people, and 0:49:43.280 --> 0:49:45.080 I think about like when I was on the View 0:49:45.120 --> 0:49:46.920 when it sort of went viral, Less said, I think 0:49:46.920 --> 0:49:49.840 they're worried about the wrong one percent. Trans people aren't 0:49:49.840 --> 0:49:51.879 the reads and you can't afford eggs, We're not the reason, 0:49:52.040 --> 0:49:54.239 like that your rent is too high, you can't, you know, 0:49:54.320 --> 0:49:57.200 buy a house. I think there's a different one percent. 0:49:57.640 --> 0:50:01.279 And I think that it's so clear with Doge. I 0:50:01.360 --> 0:50:04.799 think it's like it was just so clear with this billionaire, 0:50:05.120 --> 0:50:08.239 the richest man in the world, like gutting the Social 0:50:08.239 --> 0:50:13.280 Security Administration and instead of doing it through legislation, firing people, 0:50:13.760 --> 0:50:17.759 making it inefficient, making all these government agencies inefficient, to 0:50:17.880 --> 0:50:19.000 basically dismantle them. 0:50:19.080 --> 0:50:20.640 That's part of part twenty twenty five. 0:50:21.160 --> 0:50:24.719 And for years they wanted to privatize education so that 0:50:24.800 --> 0:50:28.800 they could like get vouchers so rich people go to 0:50:28.880 --> 0:50:31.320 school and then poor people a lot of it's about 0:50:31.360 --> 0:50:35.280 privatizations in this neoliberal kind of thing, to privatize everything 0:50:35.719 --> 0:50:38.080 so that they can make everything part of the stock 0:50:38.120 --> 0:50:39.240 market and make more money. 0:50:39.840 --> 0:50:40.960 So much of it's about that. 0:50:48.880 --> 0:50:51.279 Hi everyone, it's me Katie Couric. You know, if you've 0:50:51.280 --> 0:50:54.000 been following me on social media, you know I love 0:50:54.120 --> 0:50:57.200 to cook, or at least try, especially alongside some of 0:50:57.320 --> 0:51:01.000 my favorite chefs and foodies like Benny Blank, Jake Cohen, 0:51:01.120 --> 0:51:05.520 Lighty Hoik, Alison Roman and Inagarten. So I started a 0:51:05.560 --> 0:51:09.080 free newsletter called good Taste to share recipes, tips and 0:51:09.280 --> 0:51:13.360 kitchen mustaves. Just sign up at katiecurreic dot com slash 0:51:13.600 --> 0:51:16.520 good Taste. That's k A t I E C O 0:51:16.719 --> 0:51:20.279 U r I c dot com slash good Taste. I 0:51:20.480 --> 0:51:23.080 promise your taste buds will be happy you did. 0:51:32.320 --> 0:51:34.200 If there's an US versus them, which I don't like 0:51:34.280 --> 0:51:36.359 to subscribe to, it's a it's. 0:51:36.280 --> 0:51:37.960 Not a culture war, it's a class war. 0:51:38.440 --> 0:51:41.400 So then if I think it's about if we are 0:51:41.520 --> 0:51:45.239 to come together, we have to find ways as working people. 0:51:45.320 --> 0:51:48.040 When I say working people, if your money is not 0:51:48.160 --> 0:51:51.200 made through the labor of someone else, you're a working person. 0:51:52.040 --> 0:51:54.000 If you have to show up somewhere to make your money. 0:51:55.040 --> 0:51:59.759 You're a working person, and so working people are being 0:52:00.120 --> 0:52:01.960 screwed over across the board. 0:52:02.280 --> 0:52:05.040 And so I think if we can get broad coalition 0:52:05.280 --> 0:52:06.520 of workers. 0:52:06.600 --> 0:52:13.080 Across gender, race, age, workers coming together because there's a 0:52:13.120 --> 0:52:17.400 tradition with labor movements that we can understand like that 0:52:17.760 --> 0:52:19.600 people should have. You know, we have a five day 0:52:19.640 --> 0:52:22.759 work week because of labor movement, right, coming together across 0:52:22.880 --> 0:52:26.239 these differences. But I think that it becomes difficult when 0:52:27.360 --> 0:52:28.960 a lot of people if don't want to work with 0:52:29.040 --> 0:52:32.799 someone who maybe hasn't like interrogated the ways in which 0:52:32.840 --> 0:52:36.160 they've internalized white supremacy or internalized transphobia, and we don't 0:52:36.239 --> 0:52:40.160 trust each other. And when I say this, so there's 0:52:40.280 --> 0:52:42.759 like this systemic piece that has to happen, but then 0:52:42.800 --> 0:52:45.480 there's a personal thing that has to happen, the individual 0:52:45.600 --> 0:52:48.719 thing and the interpersonal thing. I invite all of us 0:52:48.880 --> 0:52:55.520 to interrogate the ways in which we've internalized transphobia, patriarchy, 0:52:55.719 --> 0:52:59.719 white supremacy. I often say, if I a black trans woman, 0:53:00.000 --> 0:53:06.200 I'm mobile Alabama. I'm not automatically anti racist because I'm black. 0:53:06.680 --> 0:53:08.880 I grew up in the same culture I've internalized the 0:53:08.960 --> 0:53:13.240 same anti blackness, the same white supremacist ideas about myself 0:53:13.360 --> 0:53:15.359 and my people that other people have had that I've 0:53:15.360 --> 0:53:18.160 had to unlearn. I've had to decolonize my mind. It 0:53:18.280 --> 0:53:21.080 took me twenty six years to transition because I internalized 0:53:21.120 --> 0:53:24.960 so much transphobia as a child and was learned to 0:53:25.040 --> 0:53:27.920 hate the feminine part of myself that I couldn't transition 0:53:28.040 --> 0:53:31.120 until I moved to New York and met trans people 0:53:31.200 --> 0:53:34.759 and then start to unlearn that internalized transphobia, which is 0:53:34.800 --> 0:53:39.120 a continuing process. Internalized classism. I did an episode of 0:53:39.160 --> 0:53:42.319 my podcast where we shame poor people. We shame poor 0:53:42.360 --> 0:53:44.799 people in this country. I grew up with so much 0:53:44.840 --> 0:53:47.680 shame about being working class, and so we have to 0:53:47.760 --> 0:53:54.800 do this work to understand how we've internalized oppression, oppression 0:53:54.920 --> 0:53:58.680 that can hurt us and then hurt other people. That 0:53:58.920 --> 0:54:02.080 work has to happen, I think, so that we can 0:54:03.000 --> 0:54:06.719 come together, and there is a concerted effort right now 0:54:06.800 --> 0:54:08.080 to say that you don't need to do any of 0:54:08.160 --> 0:54:12.680 that work. That anybody's saying that like there's internalized bias, 0:54:12.960 --> 0:54:15.839 or there's you know, we are racist country, like they're 0:54:15.960 --> 0:54:18.880 lying to you and they're like, you know, saying America 0:54:18.960 --> 0:54:19.359 isn't great. 0:54:19.400 --> 0:54:22.240 And it's not that America isn't. 0:54:22.080 --> 0:54:24.960 Great because we have a racist history, that we were 0:54:25.000 --> 0:54:26.960 born on a genocide of a Native people. 0:54:27.200 --> 0:54:29.880 Those are just facts. Those are facts. It's like, what 0:54:30.040 --> 0:54:32.759 do we do with that? How do we heal from that? 0:54:33.239 --> 0:54:37.920 And we have never ever in the United States really 0:54:38.400 --> 0:54:41.600 fully reckoned with the legacy of that genocide. 0:54:41.960 --> 0:54:44.920 A little bit more with reservations, but that's a mess. 0:54:45.520 --> 0:54:47.640 You know. When I interviewed dot To Jeory degru who 0:54:47.680 --> 0:54:50.319 coined the term post traumatic slaves syndrome, she would say, 0:54:50.400 --> 0:54:53.960 after emancipation, there wasn't a mass movement to like do 0:54:54.320 --> 0:54:59.320 therapy for black folks who had been brutalized for hundreds 0:54:59.400 --> 0:55:03.080 of years and made to work for free, work for 0:55:03.239 --> 0:55:06.480 free to build this country, and the reparations that were 0:55:06.480 --> 0:55:09.480 allegedly supposed to have them from free labor, that that 0:55:09.680 --> 0:55:13.640 didn't happen. And then in the wake of emancipation and reconstruction, 0:55:13.800 --> 0:55:17.600 the klu Klux Klan emerged. Right, we have not been 0:55:17.640 --> 0:55:21.120 able to reckon with and it's every generation when we 0:55:21.280 --> 0:55:23.920 talk about racism, it's like, let's not talk about it, 0:55:24.040 --> 0:55:25.200 let's just move past it. 0:55:25.320 --> 0:55:27.080 Let's let it go in the past. 0:55:27.400 --> 0:55:30.880 That's in the and it's not it's it just isn't 0:55:31.120 --> 0:55:34.319 the effects of if you just look at housing. I'm 0:55:34.400 --> 0:55:36.399 Richard Rosstein's wonderful book Color of Law. 0:55:36.600 --> 0:55:38.919 If you look at just My daughter loves that book. 0:55:39.160 --> 0:55:41.600 It's so good. I interviewed him from my podcast too. 0:55:42.120 --> 0:55:42.959 It's so good. 0:55:43.080 --> 0:55:45.759 And when you look at the areas that were redlined 0:55:46.080 --> 0:55:49.799 back in the day, if they haven't been gentrified, there's 0:55:49.920 --> 0:55:54.160 still quote unquote slums. There's still low income neighborhoods with 0:55:54.320 --> 0:55:57.360 bad schools that are dilapidated neighborhoods. 0:55:57.400 --> 0:55:59.480 The areas that were redlined that were. 0:55:59.520 --> 0:56:03.240 Black people bull couldn't buy homes, and so that legacy 0:56:03.600 --> 0:56:06.560 because even when I'm ross seen in his books says, well, 0:56:06.600 --> 0:56:09.400 they passed the Fairhousing Act in nineteen sixty eight, but 0:56:09.520 --> 0:56:14.239 they didn't do anything retroactively to fix all of the 0:56:14.320 --> 0:56:19.880 discrimination that it happened before that. Nothing, And so it 0:56:20.160 --> 0:56:22.839 just keeps happening. And then there's real estate agents now 0:56:22.880 --> 0:56:26.279 who don't rent. There was a football star who's from 0:56:26.320 --> 0:56:28.239 Alabama who wanted to buy a house in like a 0:56:28.280 --> 0:56:31.160 wealthy neighborhood in Alabama, and the real estate agent wouldn't 0:56:31.160 --> 0:56:32.279 even show him houses, you know. 0:56:32.400 --> 0:56:33.200 So there's like so. 0:56:33.400 --> 0:56:38.280 Many institutional things that are still happening with real estate agents. 0:56:38.320 --> 0:56:41.680 And then when we gentrify neighborhoods, real estate agents and 0:56:42.200 --> 0:56:45.600 colluding with mayors and police to get certain groups out 0:56:45.719 --> 0:56:49.560 of neighborhoods so they can gentrify them. There's structural things 0:56:49.800 --> 0:56:56.359 in place still to keep us segregated, to reinforce an inequality. 0:56:56.640 --> 0:56:58.960 And if you just look at the wealth gap between 0:56:59.040 --> 0:57:01.480 black and white people, there's just so there's like so 0:57:01.680 --> 0:57:06.800 much evidence that racism is still structural in this country, 0:57:07.440 --> 0:57:11.719 and we have not done the work to undo that 0:57:12.040 --> 0:57:15.319 because there's such a resistance to actually like talk about 0:57:15.360 --> 0:57:18.920 the problem, because I think part of it is power 0:57:19.280 --> 0:57:21.560 people in power who just want to keep that power. 0:57:21.760 --> 0:57:23.760 But for those of us who are well. 0:57:23.680 --> 0:57:26.760 Meaning and want to learn and want to evolve, it's 0:57:26.920 --> 0:57:31.400 the fight, flight or freeze thing. Instead of calling someone 0:57:31.560 --> 0:57:36.200 racist or transphobic, I prefer to like say this behavior 0:57:36.800 --> 0:57:42.280 is consistent with a history of transphobic behavior, because behavior 0:57:42.360 --> 0:57:45.880 can be changed, Racism can be unlearned. I've unlearned so 0:57:46.480 --> 0:57:49.080 to exist as myself now I've had to unlearn a 0:57:49.120 --> 0:57:51.960 lot of racism, a lot of internalized transphobia. 0:57:52.080 --> 0:57:54.640 Be myself. I'm a work in progress. I still have 0:57:54.760 --> 0:57:57.040 to do that work, but that work is possible. 0:57:57.520 --> 0:58:02.120 You are a great example of learning implacit bias or 0:58:02.280 --> 0:58:05.960 just misinformation about trans people and what's You are a 0:58:06.000 --> 0:58:11.280 great example of transformation. Someone who got it wrong publicly 0:58:11.800 --> 0:58:14.040 was publicly shamed. And I'm not a fan of publicly 0:58:14.080 --> 0:58:17.760 shaming people. I don't think that's effective. But you've transformed 0:58:17.960 --> 0:58:21.680 and you're now a fierce ally for our community, and 0:58:22.760 --> 0:58:26.080 I wish we had more examples of that, and we 0:58:26.200 --> 0:58:29.000 don't have a lot of them. The only way that 0:58:29.120 --> 0:58:32.200 we can have that is through that Oh my god, 0:58:32.360 --> 0:58:35.320 save space. And the reason we have to have safe 0:58:35.320 --> 0:58:39.400 space is because neurobiologically we are programmed. 0:58:39.440 --> 0:58:40.360 It's just biological. 0:58:40.680 --> 0:58:43.960 We feel threatened, unsafe, fight, fight fleas and once we're 0:58:44.000 --> 0:58:47.000 in that flight or freeze, we go into limpic brain. 0:58:47.080 --> 0:58:49.320 We're not in our prefrontal cortex. We can't hear. We're 0:58:49.360 --> 0:58:53.240 just in defense mode. So we have to create a 0:58:53.360 --> 0:58:56.640 safe space where there is love. I'm not going to 0:58:56.720 --> 0:58:59.720 attack you. Maybe it's going to be a little uncomfortable, 0:59:00.720 --> 0:59:05.360 but discomfort is not unsafety, right, So we have to 0:59:05.520 --> 0:59:11.560 also create a tolerance for discomfort, that distinguishing between being 0:59:11.680 --> 0:59:15.520 uncomfortable and being unsafe, so that we can have the conversations, 0:59:15.680 --> 0:59:19.640 have those transformative moments, so that we can get past this. 0:59:20.280 --> 0:59:23.520 It was hard before the Laverne. I mean, it's almost 0:59:23.600 --> 0:59:28.760 impossible now. It feels like in the current climate, this 0:59:29.160 --> 0:59:34.120 was something that was considered almost radical ten years ago, 0:59:34.520 --> 0:59:39.280 and now there's so much silencing. How do you create 0:59:39.440 --> 0:59:44.560 that space and how do you possibly in this current 0:59:44.960 --> 0:59:46.840 environment change this narrative. 0:59:47.840 --> 0:59:53.760 Well, for me, I think there's some people who are 0:59:55.000 --> 0:59:59.320 fascist and capitulating the fascism because they're afraid, because they 0:59:59.400 --> 1:00:01.920 just want to be alive with power, And I'm not 1:00:02.880 --> 1:00:04.920 convinced that those are the people we're going to be 1:00:05.000 --> 1:00:06.160 able to change. 1:00:05.920 --> 1:00:06.880 Right, And so. 1:00:08.560 --> 1:00:13.400 You can't meet fascism with like let's sit down and 1:00:13.440 --> 1:00:17.040 have a conversation. I'm so upset with Evin Usome sitting 1:00:17.080 --> 1:00:19.840 down with all these white supremacists because it's like he's like, 1:00:20.280 --> 1:00:23.480 let's sit down with Charlie Kirk, who is a white bandmisist, 1:00:23.640 --> 1:00:26.520 or Steve Bannon, who are white supremacist, you know, transphobic, 1:00:27.280 --> 1:00:30.320 you know, they don't think I should exist, Like, what's 1:00:30.400 --> 1:00:34.040 the conversation going to be? So I think, like you said, 1:00:34.080 --> 1:00:36.080 who are we having the conversations with? First of all, 1:00:36.840 --> 1:00:39.480 and I think we have to fight. It has to 1:00:39.560 --> 1:00:43.280 be a fight against fascism, and we can't capitulate. There's 1:00:43.360 --> 1:00:45.280 not a conversation to be had with a fascist. 1:00:45.400 --> 1:00:47.520 And to your point, we need to bring all these 1:00:47.640 --> 1:00:52.800 diverse groups together and not do in fighting and not say, well, 1:00:52.960 --> 1:00:54.680 this is good for you, it's going to be bad 1:00:54.760 --> 1:00:56.920 for me, or you're going to hurt us in some 1:00:57.080 --> 1:00:58.439 ways in terms of the problem. 1:00:58.800 --> 1:01:01.640 But it can't be like let's just agree on one 1:01:01.720 --> 1:01:05.360 thing and still be racist and transphobacan like that doesn't 1:01:05.400 --> 1:01:07.880 really work, I think in terms of building coalition because 1:01:07.920 --> 1:01:08.720 we don't trust each other. 1:01:09.040 --> 1:01:11.840 Because we don't, we can't come together. So we have 1:01:12.040 --> 1:01:14.440 to be wary of in fighting, but. 1:01:14.600 --> 1:01:19.080 Understand who the if stakeholders are, well the stakeholders are, 1:01:19.160 --> 1:01:21.800 who actually has power is Ultimately this is about power. 1:01:22.040 --> 1:01:24.200 There is the changing of hearts and minds, and there's 1:01:24.240 --> 1:01:27.040 the empathetic piece that's interpersonal and what we can do 1:01:27.120 --> 1:01:27.800 in our lives. 1:01:27.920 --> 1:01:30.440 I wanted to mention that when my documentary came out, 1:01:30.520 --> 1:01:33.720 Doctor Oz, who's now working for the administration, said something 1:01:34.040 --> 1:01:36.120 to me. He said, it's hard to hate up close. 1:01:36.520 --> 1:01:40.200 So I think what you mean about that interpersonal that exposure, 1:01:40.360 --> 1:01:43.919 those conversations one on one or with a small group 1:01:44.000 --> 1:01:44.400 of people. 1:01:44.560 --> 1:01:50.320 But then you know, the structural piece is requires you know, movements, 1:01:50.360 --> 1:01:54.160 and at this point, our government is captured, captured by 1:01:54.200 --> 1:01:56.960 fascists now, and they're capitulating the fascists. If in the 1:01:57.080 --> 1:02:00.920 midterms there could be some kind of reckoning, is there 1:02:00.960 --> 1:02:04.040 a benevolent billionaire who can fund and I and I've 1:02:04.080 --> 1:02:05.680 talked to expose this to Sam Seat or a few 1:02:05.720 --> 1:02:09.800 other people who could fund a fifty state ballot initiative 1:02:10.120 --> 1:02:13.680 to get money out of politics. That is the first 1:02:14.200 --> 1:02:17.120 order of business I think for structural change in the 1:02:17.240 --> 1:02:20.040 United States is to get money out of politics. The 1:02:20.120 --> 1:02:23.520 politicians still happening incentive to do this. Is it constitutional 1:02:23.560 --> 1:02:26.200 because it is since United These are questions I have. 1:02:26.680 --> 1:02:29.600 But if there's a Mark Cuban or Oprah, I don't 1:02:29.640 --> 1:02:32.360 know who the billionaire is. I believe in my heart 1:02:32.480 --> 1:02:36.760 that Republicans, Democrats independence, if they had a ballot initiative 1:02:36.800 --> 1:02:39.040 and had the clear information. I think they would vote 1:02:39.080 --> 1:02:41.360 to get money out of politics. I think most of 1:02:41.480 --> 1:02:44.600 us understand that our politicians aren't working for us, and 1:02:44.760 --> 1:02:48.240 that we vote people in and nothing changes because of 1:02:48.800 --> 1:02:53.840 special interest money corporations funding politicians. So I think on 1:02:53.960 --> 1:02:57.760 a structural level, that has to be a fundamental change 1:02:58.000 --> 1:03:00.320 first and foremost, and then maybe we can talk about 1:03:00.400 --> 1:03:05.800 healthcare and wages. I was salted with the Biden administration 1:03:06.080 --> 1:03:08.680 up front when they didn't fight for minimum wage. When 1:03:08.680 --> 1:03:11.280 Bernie dropped out, it said all he asked for and 1:03:11.360 --> 1:03:14.040 you should have asked for more, said fifteen dollar minimum wage, 1:03:14.440 --> 1:03:17.560 and Biden just said a Senate parliamentarian, had you heard 1:03:17.600 --> 1:03:21.560 the center parliamentarian before twenty twenty one? I mean maybe 1:03:21.600 --> 1:03:23.760 you have, you're in this business. I had not heard 1:03:23.800 --> 1:03:26.360 the Senate parliamentary. I was like, Senate parliamentary. What I 1:03:26.520 --> 1:03:30.040 do know now is that when the Senate parliamentarian challenged 1:03:30.040 --> 1:03:32.560 the Bush administration, they fired the c Intate parliamentarian got 1:03:32.600 --> 1:03:33.000 a new one. 1:03:33.680 --> 1:03:37.080 So that is like there is a bully pulpit that 1:03:37.200 --> 1:03:38.200 you have when you're president. 1:03:38.280 --> 1:03:41.840 And I just but at again, the business interest that 1:03:42.040 --> 1:03:44.480 fund the Biden campaign did not want to raise minimum 1:03:44.560 --> 1:03:46.560 wage so like, I think we got to get money 1:03:46.560 --> 1:03:49.960 out of politics and have structural change, but interpersonally, and 1:03:50.080 --> 1:03:53.080 then I think with as storytellers and the media, we 1:03:53.160 --> 1:03:56.000 have to do a better job of humanizing everyone. And 1:03:56.240 --> 1:03:59.800 it's the problem is that it's not the algorithm is 1:03:59.840 --> 1:04:02.720 not really set up for empathy and love. The algorithms 1:04:02.760 --> 1:04:04.680 are set up for like us being at each other's 1:04:04.720 --> 1:04:09.760 throats and fighting. So again resisting that in capitalism, how 1:04:09.840 --> 1:04:14.240 do we elevate voices that are loving, that are humanizing, 1:04:14.720 --> 1:04:19.280 and beware of dehumanization even when we disagree with people, 1:04:19.680 --> 1:04:25.000 And dehumanization happens primarily through words and images to put 1:04:25.120 --> 1:04:28.280 a certain class into a space of moral exclusion, meaning 1:04:28.400 --> 1:04:32.560 like we aren't as human beings hardwired to be violent 1:04:32.600 --> 1:04:34.800 against each other, to discriminate against each other. 1:04:35.120 --> 1:04:38.000 But when we put this group into moral exclusion. 1:04:38.000 --> 1:04:40.400 And dehumanize them, then we can take away their rights, 1:04:40.760 --> 1:04:42.880 then we can discriminate against them. We've done that with 1:04:42.960 --> 1:04:47.840 the dehumanization of immigrants. I mean, it's so clear how 1:04:47.880 --> 1:04:50.560 the immigrants have been dehumanized. They're eating the cats, they're 1:04:50.560 --> 1:04:52.640 eating the dogs. I mean that was like such a 1:04:52.840 --> 1:04:58.480 clear example of dehumanization. They successfully dehumanized trans people, like 1:04:58.600 --> 1:05:01.400 saying that, you know, calling us predator and so are you. 1:05:01.480 --> 1:05:05.440 Seeing that as the most effective campaign commercial in twenty 1:05:05.600 --> 1:05:09.680 twenty four with Kamala Harris, you know Donald Trump, Kamala 1:05:09.760 --> 1:05:12.360 Harris is for they them, Donald Trump is for you. 1:05:12.800 --> 1:05:13.000 Yeah. 1:05:13.400 --> 1:05:16.560 And the trans prisoners, it was it was. 1:05:16.680 --> 1:05:19.080 Trans immigrant prisoners. They like really brought it out. 1:05:19.200 --> 1:05:22.120 They brought it brought yeah, and it was the trifecta. 1:05:22.320 --> 1:05:24.080 And I was, you know, I have to say I was. 1:05:24.240 --> 1:05:26.920 I had moments of being afraid to speak up too 1:05:27.040 --> 1:05:29.320 much during that campaign because I was like, well, my 1:05:29.520 --> 1:05:31.560 transigentity is kind of toxic right now. And I think 1:05:31.680 --> 1:05:35.360 Republicans thought about transit were more than Democrats did. Kamala said, out, 1:05:35.400 --> 1:05:37.959 follow the law, and instead of following up and saying 1:05:38.000 --> 1:05:40.280 that this is a policy under Trump as well, that 1:05:40.480 --> 1:05:45.080 like basically, if someone is in prison, then they are 1:05:45.240 --> 1:05:48.720 entitled to healthcare. It's inhumane that that is the law. 1:05:49.320 --> 1:05:53.600 And transalthcare is healthcare. And if a person is an 1:05:53.680 --> 1:05:57.320 immigrant and they're incarcerated, they're entitled to healthcare. And that 1:05:57.480 --> 1:06:00.920 healthcare can be trans healthcare or could be whatever. And 1:06:01.000 --> 1:06:03.600 so often when people need health care in prison diabetic 1:06:03.720 --> 1:06:05.760 if you're a diabetic. Yeah, but a lot of times, 1:06:05.800 --> 1:06:07.920 if it's really expensive, they'll release them. They'll do a 1:06:07.960 --> 1:06:09.440 compassion release. They don't have to pay for it. 1:06:09.720 --> 1:06:10.760 But that is the law. 1:06:10.920 --> 1:06:13.520 Do you think they were too afraid. Yes, they wanted 1:06:13.560 --> 1:06:14.720 to change the subject. 1:06:15.000 --> 1:06:19.920 It was clear that Republicans had successfully dehumanized trans people. 1:06:20.280 --> 1:06:23.800 Any mention of trans people was like bad, and I 1:06:23.880 --> 1:06:26.400 think that was a misstep. Now, I think if she 1:06:26.480 --> 1:06:28.960 had addressed it and said this is the law, clearly, 1:06:29.600 --> 1:06:32.560 this is the law. It is cool and unusual punishment 1:06:32.800 --> 1:06:35.320 to deny people health care when they're incarcerated in the 1:06:35.400 --> 1:06:37.880 United States of America, and this is the law, and 1:06:38.000 --> 1:06:40.360 this is the law under Trump as well, and explain 1:06:40.520 --> 1:06:44.800 that and really leaning into we want equality for everyone, 1:06:45.280 --> 1:06:48.400 we want health care for everyone. And so she But 1:06:48.600 --> 1:06:50.680 part of the problem with Harris, I think and the 1:06:50.760 --> 1:06:53.480 words out that that would happen is that for me, 1:06:53.680 --> 1:06:59.120 what I saw, it's her triangulating between what the donors want. 1:07:00.080 --> 1:07:03.000 The rollout was good, and Tim Walls with the weird 1:07:03.240 --> 1:07:03.640 was good. 1:07:03.760 --> 1:07:07.120 We're not going back was good, and then typical Democratic 1:07:07.160 --> 1:07:09.840 consultants came in and said, you can't say weird anymore, 1:07:09.880 --> 1:07:12.160 which was really working. We need to appeal to the 1:07:12.280 --> 1:07:17.640 suburbs and get list chaining out those missteps and her 1:07:17.760 --> 1:07:20.080 not talking about price scouging enough, like there was a 1:07:20.120 --> 1:07:25.040 few issues, like the price scouging was great, healthcare and 1:07:25.200 --> 1:07:28.680 then standing up for trans people and just civil rights 1:07:28.720 --> 1:07:31.640 in general, picking a few issues because people like. 1:07:31.680 --> 1:07:32.440 What is she about? 1:07:33.240 --> 1:07:34.600 Would you ever run for office? 1:07:37.360 --> 1:07:41.280 I always say that you are so smart, the upper research, 1:07:41.360 --> 1:07:43.440 the upper research would be fierce. 1:07:43.560 --> 1:07:46.480 I own everything in my past. It's people have asked 1:07:46.520 --> 1:07:47.080 me that before. 1:07:47.320 --> 1:07:49.720 And when I think about what they do to politicians 1:07:49.840 --> 1:07:53.920 like with AOC and how they've demonized her, it's so 1:07:54.160 --> 1:07:57.920 vicious and so mean, and I'm really sensitive. The answer 1:07:58.000 --> 1:08:00.280 right now is no, it's something I've thought. It's I 1:08:00.400 --> 1:08:02.760 thought about it a little bit more, but running a 1:08:02.840 --> 1:08:07.000 campaign raising money. I'm an artist more than I am 1:08:07.160 --> 1:08:10.160 like a politician. Like I've always loved and been intrigued 1:08:10.160 --> 1:08:14.520 by politics and followed it my whole life. But right now, no, 1:08:15.320 --> 1:08:17.880 there are other effective ways I think to make an. 1:08:17.800 --> 1:08:19.920 Impact, and hopefully this is one of them. 1:08:20.280 --> 1:08:23.240 Hopefully because I think that, like there's an inside strategy 1:08:23.280 --> 1:08:24.040 and outside strategy. 1:08:24.040 --> 1:08:24.960 When AOC went in. 1:08:25.160 --> 1:08:27.240 She's a good example because she came in with this 1:08:27.840 --> 1:08:31.640 mandate and then you saw Nancy Pelosi just like not 1:08:31.800 --> 1:08:33.479 have her own commit You have to be on the 1:08:33.720 --> 1:08:36.160 committees when you're in Congress right to actually have power. 1:08:36.760 --> 1:08:39.760 And then the outside game I have agitating using her followers. 1:08:40.080 --> 1:08:43.400 You just alienate the people there. And unfortunately the Democrats 1:08:43.479 --> 1:08:46.000 have this seniority thing too that they really need to 1:08:46.080 --> 1:08:48.520 let go of that the Republicans don't have. The Republicans 1:08:48.560 --> 1:08:50.840 are more responsive to their base than the Democrats are. 1:08:51.160 --> 1:08:55.720 But the problem with the Democratic base is that is progressive. 1:08:55.920 --> 1:08:59.760 It's tends to want healthcare for everyone and to check 1:08:59.800 --> 1:09:04.320 co operations, and that is against again, the corporate interests 1:09:04.360 --> 1:09:07.479 that the Democratic Party as well as the Republican Party 1:09:07.560 --> 1:09:08.200 is beholden too. 1:09:08.320 --> 1:09:10.639 So that's why we need to get money out of politics. 1:09:10.720 --> 1:09:12.920 That's why, and that's why when you look at a 1:09:13.000 --> 1:09:16.360 Bernie or an AOC, those are the ones that I 1:09:16.360 --> 1:09:19.519 don't trust any politicians really, but I trust more the 1:09:19.600 --> 1:09:21.280 politicians who don't take corporate money. 1:09:22.000 --> 1:09:26.320 Whoo wow, Laburne, I'm exhausted and you must be too. 1:09:26.800 --> 1:09:30.360 I've invigorated. Strangely enough, I'm invigorated. I love these conversations. 1:09:30.520 --> 1:09:34.799 I love listening to you. I love sharing from you. Honestly, 1:09:35.080 --> 1:09:39.920 I always appreciate your perspective and your depth of not 1:09:40.120 --> 1:09:45.840 only knowledge, but sort of your bottomless compassion for people. 1:09:46.640 --> 1:09:49.479 It's all about love, but I'm also learning. I'm a student, 1:09:49.640 --> 1:09:52.000 like I'm learning. I'm like, I got to learn about fascism. 1:09:52.240 --> 1:09:54.200 I got to learn about this. So being a constant 1:09:54.280 --> 1:09:58.000 student is really important to me. And then it has 1:09:58.080 --> 1:10:01.639 to be about love. This is wonderful video with Cornell 1:10:01.720 --> 1:10:04.600 West and Bell Hooks Fro nineteen ninety seven where they 1:10:04.720 --> 1:10:07.800 talk and they talk about like how Belle has disagreed 1:10:07.880 --> 1:10:10.200 with Cornell West big millionaire in March and other things, 1:10:10.720 --> 1:10:14.040 and it's hard. It's just hard to like, have I 1:10:14.040 --> 1:10:15.960 haven't seen you in a while. I still love you 1:10:16.280 --> 1:10:18.639 even though I disagree with you. And then they quote 1:10:18.960 --> 1:10:22.360 Martin Luther King's one of his speeches and the quote, 1:10:22.400 --> 1:10:25.160 I've chosen to love is the beginning. 1:10:25.200 --> 1:10:26.960 I've chosen to love. 1:10:27.680 --> 1:10:30.320 And I think that in this very cynical society and 1:10:30.520 --> 1:10:33.320 when politics, when people I remember joy and re laughing 1:10:33.360 --> 1:10:35.519 and Corey Booker's face when you talked about love, when 1:10:35.560 --> 1:10:37.920 he was running for a resident, literally laughing his face, 1:10:37.960 --> 1:10:39.960 and I was just like, oh, this is sad. There's 1:10:40.000 --> 1:10:43.479 a cynicism. And I think when we love and have 1:10:43.680 --> 1:10:47.519 empathy and rehumanize, those are the that's the work to 1:10:47.640 --> 1:10:50.560 love each other better, to have more empathy, and to 1:10:50.760 --> 1:10:54.240 rehumanize ourselves in each other, because when we dehumanize other people, 1:10:54.280 --> 1:10:57.559 we also dehumanize ourselves. And so how do we get 1:10:57.640 --> 1:11:01.040 into that space of rehumanization and empathy? And I think 1:11:01.160 --> 1:11:06.000 the love, love for ourselves, love for each other. Empathy. 1:11:06.680 --> 1:11:08.800 Sympathy is feeling for us. Empathy, It is feeling with 1:11:09.560 --> 1:11:14.080 and rehumanizing that everyone is a human being, deserving of rights, 1:11:14.520 --> 1:11:19.080 deserving of grace. People can do something wrong, maybe it 1:11:19.160 --> 1:11:21.439 needs to go to jail, but you're still a human being. 1:11:22.240 --> 1:11:24.800 Accountability punishment, yes, but you're still human. 1:11:26.160 --> 1:11:38.160 Thank you Laverne, Thank you Katie, Thanks for listening everyone. 1:11:38.640 --> 1:11:41.200 If you have a question for me, a subject you 1:11:41.280 --> 1:11:43.479 want us to cover, or you want to share your 1:11:43.560 --> 1:11:47.240 thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world, reach out, 1:11:47.640 --> 1:11:50.280 send me a DM on Instagram. I would love to 1:11:50.320 --> 1:11:54.080 hear from you. Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia 1:11:54.280 --> 1:11:58.599 and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers are Me, Katie Kuric, 1:11:58.760 --> 1:12:03.160 and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz, and 1:12:03.280 --> 1:12:08.360 our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian Weller 1:12:08.520 --> 1:12:13.080 composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode, 1:12:13.320 --> 1:12:15.639 or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call, 1:12:16.160 --> 1:12:19.040 go to the description in the podcast app, or visit 1:12:19.160 --> 1:12:22.280 us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me 1:12:22.400 --> 1:12:26.080 on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more 1:12:26.200 --> 1:12:31.479 podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 1:12:31.560 --> 1:12:33.599 wherever you listen to your favorite shows,