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Speaker 1: Trans people were more visible post Orange and New Black.

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Speaker 1: We had transparent Caitlyn Jenner a year after I was

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Speaker 1: in the cover Time magazine choosing the cover Vanity Fair

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Speaker 1: and Caitlyn's transition wise international news in a way that

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Speaker 1: shook the world.

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Speaker 2: And we had a few.

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Speaker 1: Good years of progress, like more, a little more representation,

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Speaker 1: more influencers, more trans people feeling comfortable coming out.

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Speaker 2: And this is the inevitable backlash to that.

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Speaker 3: Hi everyone, I'm Kittie Couric, and this is next question

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Speaker 3: Laverne Cox. I'm so happy to see you again. I've

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Speaker 3: run into you on a couple of occasions, but I'm

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Speaker 3: always so thrilled and delighted to talk to you because

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Speaker 3: I learned so much from you every time we meet.

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Speaker 3: And I thought we should probably give a quick synopsis

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Speaker 3: of our backstorre because for people who are listening or watching,

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Speaker 3: you and I met Gosh. I think it was in

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Speaker 3: twenty thirteen. Perhaps, yeah, it was twenty thirteen. I think

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Speaker 3: we shot the show. I feel like it was the

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Speaker 3: day before Thanksgiving. Wow, I know I remember because I

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Speaker 3: had just gotten back shooting a documentary called Free CC,

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Speaker 3: and i'd just gone back from Saint Cloud, Minnesota, and

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Speaker 3: I visited CC in prison. She's a trans woman who

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Speaker 3: was incarcerated at the time, and I was shooting Oranges

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Speaker 3: a New Black, and it was the story I wanted

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Speaker 3: to cover before I booked Oranges and New Black. It

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Speaker 3: was for a show called In the Life that was

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Speaker 3: a PBS show. We're going to do a segment on CC.

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Speaker 1: And then they lost their funding, and then I booked

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Speaker 1: Orange and I was like, I think we may have

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Speaker 1: an opportunity to tell CC's story because of this show.

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Speaker 2: And then it happened.

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Speaker 1: And so I had just gone back from Saint Cloud, Minnesota,

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Speaker 1: and I've been doing a college lecture tour. So that time, though,

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Speaker 1: I just think about all the stats that I listed

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Speaker 1: because I was doing I was triving the country like,

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Speaker 1: so all of that was fresh in my mind. So

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Speaker 1: everything I said on the show, I'd been saying on

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Speaker 1: the road. So I remember all of that. And I

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Speaker 1: also remember that Todd was your booking agent at the time,

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Speaker 1: and he emailed me directly and he told me, I

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Speaker 1: don't know why I remember. I know why I remember this.

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Speaker 1: He emailed me directly and said, we do come on

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Speaker 1: the show.

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Speaker 2: Karma Career.

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Speaker 1: It is going to be on and then I was

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Speaker 1: like absolutely. And then he's like, we were so sad

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Speaker 1: you were unavailable the first time. And I was like,

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Speaker 1: what do you mean, Kate, because you'd had a few

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Speaker 1: other people from Orang John earlier in your season, think

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Speaker 1: in September Jason and I think I'm Taylor and tats

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Speaker 1: it your Katie's favorite character.

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Speaker 2: And I was like what.

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Speaker 1: And I hadn't heard anything about like not being available,

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Speaker 1: and I was just like Netflix and asked me, you

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Speaker 1: know about any of this, and so I was just

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Speaker 1: sort of like, Okay, that's weird.

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Speaker 2: And so I remember that.

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Speaker 1: But then what is so beautiful about it is that

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Speaker 1: I think things happened way they were supposed to.

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Speaker 3: Can I talk about how the show went, because I

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Speaker 3: think it's so important and you really saved my bacon

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Speaker 3: in many ways. So this is what happened everyone. We

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Speaker 3: had Carmen Carrera on, she's a trans woman, wanted to

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Speaker 3: be the first Victoria's Secret Model, and.

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Speaker 2: There was a petition.

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Speaker 1: I've changed that org petition to make sure that first

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Speaker 1: trans Victoria's Secret Model.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I had not done I had had little exposure.

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Speaker 3: I would say, I mean probably more than the average

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Speaker 3: place you had interviewed.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you had interviewed a number of trans children, transfers.

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Speaker 3: Right right, right, I think I had done one other

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Speaker 3: show on that, and Carmen came on and she was lovely,

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Speaker 3: and I asked a really dumb question. I asked, what

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Speaker 3: is happening? I'm embarrassed. I'm embarrassed even admit this. Now,

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Speaker 3: what is going on with your private part? You said

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Speaker 3: you have different private parts? Now I'll never forget it. Okay,

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Speaker 3: all right, all right, okay, like I'm praying.

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Speaker 1: All so it's twenty twenty five, Like, how do you like,

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Speaker 1: how do you feel like? I mean, you can't even

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Speaker 1: say it now, so like now, like, how do you

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Speaker 1: feel like all these years later?

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Speaker 3: Oh my god? Well, clearly I'm embarrassed, of course, and

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Speaker 3: I was also embarrassed at the time, but this was

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Speaker 3: my thinking. I asked this an appropriate question, intrusive in

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Speaker 3: every way, and Carmen understandably rejected that question appropriately. Later

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Speaker 3: you came on and we talked about it and talked

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Speaker 3: about her reaction to the question and why that was

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Speaker 3: so offensive. And I learned a tremendous amount from you,

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Speaker 3: and you were incredibly loving and gracious about it, and

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Speaker 3: my producers came to me later and said, do you

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Speaker 3: want to cut that question out that you asked Carmen. Now,

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Speaker 3: I've often thought about this, what I have done this again?

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Speaker 3: But I said, do you know I'm a relatively well

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Speaker 3: read person. I consider myself super open minded. If I

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Speaker 3: ask a dumb question like that, or I want other

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Speaker 3: people to understand why that's an offensive question, So I

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Speaker 3: don't mind making me look clueless if it's instructive to

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Speaker 3: the general population, So I say keep it in. It

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Speaker 3: will be useful for people. It'll be a teachable moment.

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Speaker 3: It was for me and hopefully it will be for

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Speaker 3: people watching. Well after that episode ran the condemnation and

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Speaker 3: the fury was unleashed social media. At the time, I

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Speaker 3: guess it was primarily Twitter. It was horrible because I

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Speaker 3: was so attacked and I knew there was a lot

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Speaker 3: of anger and hurt in the trans community that I

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Speaker 3: had asked that clueless question. I kind of tried to

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Speaker 3: explain my thought process and keeping it in because it

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Speaker 3: was taped, it wasn't live, and later I ended up

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Speaker 3: doing a documentary to educate myself and to go on

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Speaker 3: a journey of learning and discovery for myself that I

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Speaker 3: hope would help other people learn and discover through it all. Laverne,

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Speaker 3: you were so kind and compassionate to me and understanding.

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Speaker 3: In fact, a few years after that, you presented me

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Speaker 3: with an award for that documentary, and I also was

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Speaker 3: recognized by Family Equality, an organization that supports all different

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Speaker 3: kinds of faith.

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Speaker 1: Your Revolution is the name of the documentary. Yes, promote it.

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Speaker 1: It's really wonderful.

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Speaker 3: It was quite a journey for me, but you were

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Speaker 3: a constant throughout that journey, and I just so appreciate

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Speaker 3: you and your support as a result of that situation,

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Speaker 3: And so I think now I am quite educated about

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Speaker 3: trans issues. I consider myself a proud ally of the

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Speaker 3: trans community, and I wanted to have you on this

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Speaker 3: podcast because I have been so upset about what's happening

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Speaker 3: to so many people in our country, and to prepare

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Speaker 3: for this, I asked my team to get a copy

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Speaker 3: of your cover on Time magazine June ninth, twenty fourteen,

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Speaker 3: so eleven years ago, almost to talk to you about

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Speaker 3: what's happening, what has changed, and really to kind of

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Speaker 3: explore why I thought it was so interesting that the

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Speaker 3: transgender tipping point is what the cover said, America's next

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Speaker 3: civil rights frontier. And I was so excited to see

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Speaker 3: you on the cover of Time, and I thought it

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Speaker 3: was such an important cultural moment. What do you think

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Speaker 3: has happened, Laverne?

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Speaker 1: There's I mean, there's so much there. First of all,

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Speaker 1: before we get to why we're here. And I have

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Speaker 1: a lot of theories and I think you know empirical

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Speaker 1: data about how we got here. But over the years,

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Speaker 1: I've cited our friendship, your evolution, your willingness to be

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Speaker 1: uncomfortable publicly, as a really important example of transformation that

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Speaker 1: so often, particularly in the environment there we're in now,

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Speaker 1: with predatory algorithms, with the profit motive having us sort

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Speaker 1: of Atajose throats instead of in a space where where

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Speaker 1: we can be educated and teachable, and we have so

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Speaker 1: few examples of people having transformations where they truly become allies.

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Speaker 1: I didn't even know you were making gender revolution. So

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Speaker 1: when I found out that the documentary was done, I

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Speaker 1: think I got an email or something.

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Speaker 2: I was like, oh my God, Like she's really serious, Like.

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Speaker 1: So she's not only because if you recall, it'd be

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Speaker 1: the episode aired. I don't know why I remember all

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Speaker 1: these details. The episode aired on a Monday. It's the

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Speaker 1: first Monday of January.

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Speaker 3: And it was I think it aired on my birthday, the.

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Speaker 1: First Monday in January twenty fourteen. And then on Fridays

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Speaker 1: you were having like a talk back, and so you

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Speaker 1: talked about the backlash and how it was a teachable moment.

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Speaker 1: And then like June, I think was after the time

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Speaker 1: magazine covery, you had me back and we had seen

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Speaker 1: each other at a few events, and we kind of

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Speaker 1: remember being at the time one hundred and going to

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Speaker 1: like a little corner and chatting about how hard it

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Speaker 1: had been to receive that backlash and what was different

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Speaker 1: about I think what's really really important for people to

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Speaker 1: understand is that up until that moment, it was acceptable

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Speaker 1: for interviewers to ask trans people about their genitalia, their surgeries,

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Speaker 1: and their transitions, and it was to rigor actually on

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Speaker 1: television talkships. I had been doing a presentation for a

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Speaker 1: few years where I looked at the history of TV

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Speaker 1: talk shows starting with Christine Jorgensen, and how the narrative

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Speaker 1: about trans people had sort of developed from Christine Jorgensen

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Speaker 1: into you know to like twenty twelve or so, and

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Speaker 1: every single talk show Christine Jorgenson's story was so much

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Speaker 1: about surgery and it was just acceptable Renee Richards, but

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Speaker 1: every sing if you look at all these talk shows,

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Speaker 1: and we have a little bit of this in Disclosure

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Speaker 1: our documentary. Everyone asked about Genitalia. Even I noted an

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Speaker 1: Oprah moment, and I live for Oprah, Live for Oprah.

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Speaker 2: So there's not a criticism of Oprah.

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Speaker 1: But a woman named Kimberly Reid Kimberly Reed Prodigal Son.

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Speaker 1: She's an editor and documentary filmmaker. She had directed a

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Speaker 1: film about her life story called Prodigal Sons, and in

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Speaker 1: the telling of her own story as a filmmaker, the

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Speaker 1: only thing she said about her transition is that it

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Speaker 1: was like a second puberty. But when she was on

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Speaker 1: the Oprah Winfrey Show, Oprah added that she had therapy,

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Speaker 1: she had gender reassignment surgery. She added that because it's

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Speaker 1: for Oprah at the time, it's like, this is what

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Speaker 1: people want to know. People are curious, and we have

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Speaker 1: to clarify, like what's going on in people's pants, because

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Speaker 1: that's what people want to know. And what I theorized

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Speaker 1: at the time is that even when there is a

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Speaker 1: humanized and it was a very humanizing interview because that's

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Speaker 1: what Oprah does, but even a humanized interview is undercut

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Speaker 1: when we focus on surgery and transition, that the audience

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Speaker 1: is like, oh my god, you know what happens in

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Speaker 1: that surgery if it comes to humanizing, because that becomes

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Speaker 1: the takeaway for audiences and it leads to a kind

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Speaker 1: of misinformation, and so so much of how we've gotten

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Speaker 1: here now is a lot of misinformation, but that we

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Speaker 1: still haven't even with the work that you and I

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Speaker 1: have done other trans people have done, a lot of

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Speaker 1: journalists since then have not been going there. The right

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Speaker 1: wing has done a really really good job of reducing

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Speaker 1: trans people to medicalization and dehumanizing us like this, it's

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Speaker 1: a dehumanizing process and they've done it in a lot of

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Speaker 1: different ways right. So specifically, if we look back at

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Speaker 1: twenty I think twenty sixteen was the big moment with

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Speaker 1: HB two in North Carolina that infamously the bathroom bill

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Speaker 1: that attempted to ban trans people from bathrooms. Well it

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Speaker 1: did ban bathrooms to North Carolina. That bill was fought,

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Speaker 1: it ended up being overturned there.

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Speaker 3: The NBA said that they wouldn't play games there.

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Speaker 1: Right, there was a movement where businesses in Ncuba, all

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Speaker 1: these athletic groups divested from North Carolina and they were like,

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Speaker 1: this is bad for business. So they were like, we're

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Speaker 1: not going to do this. And bathroom bills had been

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Speaker 1: tried and attempted in other states too. After marriage equality

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Speaker 1: became the law the land, the Republican think tanks like

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Speaker 1: mainly like Alliance Defending Freedom focus grouped trans issues and

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Speaker 1: what issue will sort of galvanize or outrage Americans most,

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Speaker 1: and it was transluple in sports. And so in twenty

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Speaker 1: nineteen we saw the first anti trans girls in sports

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Speaker 1: bill introduced are forgetting what state. It didn't pass, but

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Speaker 1: the next year they introduced in another state and it

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Speaker 1: did pass. And what we should know about this all

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Speaker 1: the anti trans legislation now hath the country bands trans

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Speaker 1: girls from sports. There is a national band now because

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Speaker 1: of this current administration through executive order and some people

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Speaker 1: are resisting, but all the executive words.

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Speaker 2: Are being folded in the courts. We should all know.

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Speaker 2: But sports was the gateway.

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Speaker 1: They were like fairness and it was also in the

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Speaker 1: language that they used. They language that they used is

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Speaker 1: not trans women or trans girls in sports. It's biological

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Speaker 1: men competing against girls. So it's not even like boys

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Speaker 1: against girls, it's biological men. So the language again becomes dehumanizing,

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Speaker 1: it's miss gendering, and so it's been a really effective

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Speaker 1: propaganda campaign to dehumanize trans people. Say it's not fair,

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Speaker 1: you know, trans people in sports, when now we know

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Speaker 1: there's there's less than one hundred trans athletes in the

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Speaker 1: country and the NC doublea of fifteen of or fifteen hundred,

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Speaker 1: I think trans athletes there's less than ten, right, So

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Speaker 1: we're talking about like trans people are less than one

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Speaker 1: percent of the population, and trans people actually playing sports

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Speaker 1: there's even fewer. There's this really genius. It just lives

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Speaker 1: free in my head. He was the governor of West

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Speaker 1: Virginia being interviewed by Stephanie will in MSNBC. He signed

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Speaker 1: a sports bandage and he was like, you know, we

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Speaker 1: don't want people taking advantage. You know this bill and dules,

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Speaker 1: can you cite anybody you know taking advantage? Because the

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Speaker 1: theory is like anybody can say that there are trans

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Speaker 1: and then compete and dominate, you know, women's sports.

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Speaker 2: He could name an example.

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Speaker 1: And so there's laws being passed anti sports bands being

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Speaker 1: passed in states with no known trans athletes. Maybe there's

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Speaker 1: one trans athlete two who The right wing is really

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Speaker 1: good at making something an issue that isn't an issue

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Speaker 1: and then fear mongering around it and then making law

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Speaker 1: and policy around it. And people say often say it's

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Speaker 1: a distraction, and I don't think it's a distraction.

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Speaker 2: Took part of their overall agenda.

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Speaker 1: In my opinion, the big piece is that, I mean,

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Speaker 1: we saw it with critical race theory, for example, and

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Speaker 1: it's always a backlash. So I think that, like if

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Speaker 1: we just stay on trans folks, we had a transiter

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Speaker 1: tipping point right, trans people were more visible post Orange

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Speaker 1: and New Black. We had transparent Caitlyn Jenner a year

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Speaker 1: after I was in the cover Time magazine choosing the

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Speaker 1: cover Vanity Fair and Caitlyn's transition was international news in

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Speaker 1: a way that shook the world.

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Speaker 2: And we had a few.

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Speaker 1: Good years of progress, like more a little more representation,

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Speaker 1: more influencers, more trans people feeling comfortable coming out. And

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Speaker 1: this is the inevitable backlash to that. Whenever I think

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Speaker 1: CRT emerged the year after critical rights theory emerged. The

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Speaker 1: year after Black Lives Matter, the biggest, the largest mass

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Speaker 1: protests in like American history, and that happened in twenty twenty.

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Speaker 1: The next year, CRT is something that most of us

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Speaker 1: had never even heard of, becomes the talk of America

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Speaker 1: and the target and the target right. And so there

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Speaker 1: is a really well funded, relentless right wing through the

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Speaker 1: through thing thanks like Alliance Defending Freedom. They're at the

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Speaker 1: heart of a lot of the anti abortion, anti LGBTQ

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Speaker 1: plus legislation. They write a lot of the legislation. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: state legislators copy their legislation verbatim. Alliance Defending Freedom and

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Speaker 1: they started as an anti LGBTQ organization, but they've literally

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Speaker 1: been at the Supreme Courts arguing against abortion, against gay rights,

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Speaker 1: trans rights. They're really well did a lot and their

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Speaker 1: global organization obviously they've worked with Heritage Foundation and all

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Speaker 1: these other thing tanks as well. And if you read

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Speaker 1: a document like Project twenty twenty five, so much of

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Speaker 1: the agenda is this Christian nationalist agenda that's returned to

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Speaker 1: traditional values. There's a unitary executive theory which is sort

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Speaker 1: of about power.

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Speaker 3: And you know sort of executive branch.

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Speaker 1: The executive branch is stripping away the deep state and all,

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Speaker 1: and we see that happening right that I think they're

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Speaker 1: like forty nine percent completed.

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Speaker 2: If there's a project twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 3: Track, Yeah, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I think they're like.

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Speaker 1: Forty nine percent the last time I checked. So it's

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Speaker 1: part of like this Christian nationalist agenda. But there is

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Speaker 1: this wonderful quote Jason Stanley, who has written a lot

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Speaker 1: of wonderful books, but he's an expertal fascism. He wrote

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Speaker 1: with specifically how fascism works. And actually just yesterday I

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Speaker 1: was watching an interview with him and Chris Hedges and

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Speaker 1: he said something that.

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Speaker 2: Really it was like I need to write this down.

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Speaker 1: And he said that whatever they target are the conceptual

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Speaker 1: resources you need to see what's going on. Whatever they're

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Speaker 1: targeting are the conceptual resources that you need to see

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Speaker 1: what's going on. For example, the book bands right, so

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Speaker 1: much of what fascism and when he talks about fascism,

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Speaker 1: he talks about propaganda, misinformation. He lists he gives like

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Speaker 1: ten components of it, and any one of these can

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Speaker 1: exist without fascism.

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Speaker 2: But when they all exist.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about fascism, and so rewriting history, for example,

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Speaker 1: is a huge part of that. All the books that

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Speaker 1: are being banned, any history that might make white people

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Speaker 1: feel scared or guilty about their past. All the book banning,

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Speaker 1: I mean, banning Tony Morrison for example. It's just seems

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Speaker 1: so egregious. But a lot of this, you know, Texasts

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Speaker 1: in Florida have been like the kind of you know,

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Speaker 1: incubators for a lot of the things that we're seeing

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Speaker 1: on a federal level now. But banning books and changing

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Speaker 1: history and our access to information is a huge part

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Speaker 1: of this. And when he had a press conference to

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Speaker 1: Santis banning AP African American history several years I think

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Speaker 1: was twenty twenty two, he said, you know, they're not

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Speaker 1: teaching AP African American history. They're trying to indoctrinate our children.

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Speaker 1: They're throwing in things like, you know, prison abolition and

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Speaker 1: queer theory. I mean, what does queer theory have to

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Speaker 1: do with AP African American history? And then I'm sitting here,

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Speaker 1: I sit there as like a black trans woman from

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Speaker 1: the South, and I'm like, can I immediately think about

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Speaker 1: Buyer Rustin who a lot of people now know because

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Speaker 1: of the film. And I'm like, well, by a resident

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Speaker 1: organized the legendary marsh on Washington, where Martin Luther King

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Speaker 1: made that I have a dream speech that is often

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Speaker 1: referenced by a Rustin was a gay man, and I

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Speaker 1: think if you're teaching an African American history class, you

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Speaker 1: kind of have to talk about the march on Washington,

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Speaker 1: and so then you kind of need to talk about

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Speaker 1: who organize it.

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Speaker 2: And I was a gay man, and that's.

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Speaker 1: And he was queer, So like queer theory like comes

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Speaker 1: in because of intersectionality. And then literally in the next

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Speaker 1: sentence he says, they're me including things like intersectionality.

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Speaker 2: What does that have to do with anything? I'm like, well,

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Speaker 2: that's the answer.

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Speaker 1: So again, the things that they are attacking are the

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Speaker 1: things that we actually need to understand what's going on.

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Speaker 1: Because I know that I can't understand my life fully

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Speaker 1: in its complexity if I only look through a gender lens.

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Speaker 1: I can't understand it effectively. If I only look through

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Speaker 1: a race lens or a class lens. I understand my

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Speaker 1: life as a trans woman, as a transoman of color

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Speaker 1: from a working class background who has raised religious who's

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Speaker 1: an artist. There is an intersectional there's intersecting identities that

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Speaker 1: are affected through power that help me understand not only

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Speaker 1: my life but the world around me and how power works. Right,

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Speaker 1: And so these are the things they want to ban

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Speaker 1: because they don't want people to have an intersectional understanding.

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Speaker 1: They don't want an educated population. I mean funding the

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Speaker 1: Apartment of Education is there's a lot of reasons why

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Speaker 1: they're doing that. Obviously a lot of it is about

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Speaker 1: not wanting people to be educated, but I'll say, you

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Speaker 1: want to privatize and make a lot of money. So

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Speaker 1: the combination of like this predatory capitalism with miseducating people

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Speaker 1: and other risings and other rising them us versus them

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Speaker 1: as another component of fascism. But trans, when I think

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Speaker 1: about that, then I'm like, trans people really are if

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Speaker 1: we think about how, because I think trans people are beautiful.

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Speaker 1: I started the hashtag trans is beautiful in twenty fifteen.

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Speaker 1: It's been like millions of people have since used it.

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Speaker 1: But we transiople in so many ways are really the

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Speaker 1: answer to a lot of the gender stuff. If we

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Speaker 1: look at the lived experiences of trans people, the reality

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Speaker 1: of trans people through history, that there are different choices

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Speaker 1: we can make around gender, and that's so much about

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Speaker 1: what feminism has always been about, that we can make

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Speaker 1: different choices as women. But another thing about fascism is

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Speaker 1: that equality becomes a threat to the dominant group. The

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Speaker 1: dominant group sees equality as oppression, and so then that

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Speaker 1: has to be suppressed. So trans people, in so many

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Speaker 1: ways are like, if I can live my life on

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Speaker 1: my own terms and defind my gender on my own

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Speaker 1: terms and be the person I want to be, anybody

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Speaker 1: can do it right. And it's not easy. It's not

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Speaker 1: like I haven't. There have been obstacles there. They have

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Speaker 1: tons of policing of my gender, trying to make me

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Speaker 1: a boy or a man, and all that stuff, and

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Speaker 1: the ridicule and the physical violence and discrimination, all of

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Speaker 1: that was real. But the joy on the other side

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Speaker 1: despite all of that is incredible, like being true to

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Speaker 1: who you are. So many of us, I think women

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Speaker 1: who date straight men, I see so many of them

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Speaker 1: in prisons. I see so many of them imprisoned by

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Speaker 1: this idea of who they're supposed to be as that's

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Speaker 1: not liberatory, that's like still based in domination, and so

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Speaker 1: much of the anger. I think that when we see

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Speaker 1: the MANI sphere on the Internet, these guys who are

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Speaker 1: like pissed off at women and feminism, and they're pissed

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Speaker 1: off because the world has told them that they should

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Speaker 1: be on top.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: They're raised to think that they should be providers and

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Speaker 1: that women should be subserving it. Every boy is not

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Speaker 1: raised that way, but the culture reinforces it, and then

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Speaker 1: wages don't keep up with inflation. Most jobs have been

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Speaker 1: shipped overseas, so they actually can't afford to be that

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Speaker 1: bread winner, to be that patriarch that they've been told

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Speaker 1: that they're supposed to be, and they're frustrated and they

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Speaker 1: want someone to blame. And instead of being educated enough

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Speaker 1: to blame predatory capitalism, corporations that have shipped jobs overseas,

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Speaker 1: depleted manufacturing unions being just you know, death made it,

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Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera. Let's blame immigrants, let's blame trans people,

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Speaker 1: let's blame women. And that's what fascism does. I think

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Speaker 1: it's so important to call it fascism too, because when

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Speaker 1: we don't, it's like we're equivocating and the fear. I

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Speaker 1: love what Jason Stanley and this is another note that

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Speaker 1: I made about Jason Stanley in his book How Fascism Works,

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Speaker 1: names ten components the mythic passed. Right, So make America

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Speaker 1: great again. There was a time when America was wonderful.

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Speaker 1: There's a time when Germany was wonderful, and we should

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Speaker 1: return to that. Many people have asked Trump when it

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Speaker 1: was America great. Now he's saying, it's.

435
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 2: The Gilded Age. Girl. He's like, you've heard me. You're aware,

436
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:41,959
Speaker 2: so you've heard.

437
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 1: I'm sure you've heard him talk about how we were

438
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 1: just so everybody was rich during the Guilded Age. I'm like,

439
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 1: everybody wasn't rich, girl, Like there are about ten people

440
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:50,880
Speaker 1: who were rich and the rest of us were, like

441
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 1: it was child labor and tenement housing. But he's been

442
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 1: talking about the Guilded Age. Propaganda, the misinformation like that

443
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 1: pivotal to a fascist state. We see that everywhere, and

444
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 1: the extent to which they just lie to us, and

445
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 1: they can with impunity because there's a whole media equosystem

446
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 1: that's not challenging them. Right, So that way, Steve and

447
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 1: Miller basically said that nine zero Supreme Court decision was

448
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,400
Speaker 1: actually in their favor, right, like that they would get

449
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,159
Speaker 1: up and lie about that that they blatantly lie about

450
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:27,200
Speaker 1: just kind of everything at this point, anti intellectualism on

451
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:34,160
Speaker 1: reality again lies steals like hierarchy, hierarchy again, I'm talking

452
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 1: about that dominant class, that there is a dominant class,

453
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 1: that there's you know, men are better, Whites are better,

454
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 1: you know than Jews, you know historically, but like that hierarchy, right,

455
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 1: and that like white men should be in let hararky,

456
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: And if you read probably twenty twenty five, it sort

457
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 1: of talks about God man patriarch in the family and

458
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 1: those two first and then women and.

459
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 3: Right and women need to have more children and stay at.

460
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:04,640
Speaker 1: Home exactly, victimhood and victimhood of the dominant class. Right,

461
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 1: all of this conversation by reverse racism that white people

462
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 1: are so being so the most discriminated against people right

463
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 1: now are white men in America and they're so put

464
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 1: upon and they're just such victims and we need to

465
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,399
Speaker 1: like fix that all of this anti white racism.

466
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 3: Well, how about the Africaners coming to America because they've

467
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:26,880
Speaker 3: been persecuted.

468
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 1: They've been persecuted in South Africa when seven percent of

469
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 1: the population owns seventy percent of the land, but they're oppressed. Yeah, victimhood,

470
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 1: law and order. So the law and order piece becomes

471
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 1: in a dictatorial, authoritarian way. That law and order piece

472
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 1: becomes like and we see it, and it's so sad.

473
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 1: What the law is is what Trump says it is.

474
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 1: I mean we see very clearly in that press conference

475
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 1: with the Governor of Maine when he's like, is she

476
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 1: here are you and follow our order to like band

477
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 1: transits to see you in court. She says, see you

478
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 1: in court, and she says, I'm going to follow the law.

479
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 1: I'm going to file the state in para la. And

480
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 1: he says, we.

481
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 2: Are the law.

482
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 3: And by the way, she won and.

483
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 2: She won, yeah, which is really beautiful.

484
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 1: But the way he's defied the Supreme Court and the

485
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 1: Supreme Court enabled it obviously with the immunity.

486
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 2: Oh the Supreme Court. What a mess.

487
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 1: But the law and order becomes whatever he says it is.

488
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 3: Hi everyone, it's me Katie Couric. You know, if you've

489
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 3: been following me on social media, you know I love

490
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 3: to cook, or at least try, especially alongside some of

491
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 3: my favorite chefs and foodies like Benny Blanco, Jake Cohen,

492
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:50,439
Speaker 3: Lighty Hoik, Alison Roman, and Ina Garten. So I started

493
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 3: a free newsletter called good Taste to share recipes, tips

494
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 3: and kitchen mustafs. Just sign up at Katiecuric dot com

495
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 3: slash good Taste. That's a t I E c O

496
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 3: U r ic dot com slash good Taste. I promise

497
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 3: your taste buds will be happy you did. It also

498
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 3: takes attention away from a movement that was gaining so

499
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,880
Speaker 3: much steam that resulted in Black Lives Matter, George Floyd

500
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:32,440
Speaker 3: and a true examination of bias in police departments and

501
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 3: police brutality. And now nobody is talking about it.

502
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 1: It's been demonized so successfully and without any pushback. And

503
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 1: I think that, like so many people like because he won,

504
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 1: because they're in power, we have to capitulate to power,

505
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 1: and so conversations about implicit bias, those conversations are like

506
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 1: they're too woke. They make it unpopular, and then so

507
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,080
Speaker 1: the conversation is no longer, so no one wants to

508
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 1: talk about it, and it's bad to talk about it,

509
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 1: and then it's banned. It's actually banned to talk about

510
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 1: it at Columbia University. Now, anything that suggests DEI, that suggests,

511
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 1: I mean the way he's taken over Columbia University is atrocious.

512
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 2: And the way they've allowed that, it's horrible.

513
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 1: Sexual anxiety, the sexual anxiety piece is really about the

514
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 1: trans folks. It's about the trans folks, it's about gay

515
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 1: and lesbian people. It's about women being in their place.

516
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 1: So if you think about vymar Berlin, right, but this

517
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 1: very very liberal progressive society in Berlin, uninhibited environment, uninhibited

518
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 1: environment that actually was very open and accepting to trans

519
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 1: people and gay and lesbian people. Magnus Hirschfeld had an

520
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 1: Institute for Sexuality and Berlin. It started in nineteen nineteen

521
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 1: and then existed until you know, the Nazis. The first

522
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 1: major Brooke burning that happened was of Magnus Hirschfeld's research

523
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 1: was of trans research, research into gain lesbian folks. Magnet

524
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 1: Schurst film made it possible for trans people to have

525
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 1: an ID document in Berlin to like identify them as

526
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 1: trans so they could like just have rights that other

527
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 1: people could have. In the nineteen thirties, let's say so,

528
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 1: Major and Hitler and his regime saw this as a

529
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 1: huge problem, and that first book burning happened. And we

530
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 1: know that with pink triangles that like gay folks and

531
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 1: trans people were also in concentration camps, and I didn't

532
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 1: know this until the Aides Movement Act Up reclaimed the

533
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 1: pink triangle as a sign of persecution in the eighties.

534
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 1: So all this sexual anxiety is also a part of fascism. Next,

535
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 1: Sodom and Goamoor. When he talks about Sodom Moore, he

536
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 1: talks about it's really cities versus rule. That in the cities,

537
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 1: this is horrible Sodom and Gomora, awful things happening to

538
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 1: the crime in the sties, when whenever we hear Republicans

539
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 1: talking about, you know, crime Chicago, Baltimore, and you know

540
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 1: black and black crime and all these things happening in

541
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 1: like Democrat or blue cities versus like our safe suburbs

542
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 1: and our rural areas. So that, like dichotomy between Solom

543
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 1: and Golmore, is another a spect of fascism. And then

544
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 1: the third one is it's a phrase I cannot say

545
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 1: because it's in German. This last one I break mach

546
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 1: free and I forget exactly what how he broke that

547
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 1: one down. But all of these things are happening right now,

548
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 1: and so I think like it's important because a lot

549
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 1: of people, like even John Stewart was reluctant to call

550
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 1: this fascism. And I think that when we look at

551
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 1: not just a general definition of fascism, but what are

552
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 1: the components of fascism, and we break them down and

553
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 1: look at them in relationship to what's going on now,

554
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 1: this is fascism. And so with that in mind, it's

555
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 1: like then when we see you know, people like you know,

556
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: Gavin Newsom or even thinking wit More, you know, sort

557
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 1: of standing with Trump, these Democrats sort of standing with Trump, it's.

558
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 3: Well, they don't really stand with Trump. No, well, well,

559
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 3: I mean when they need certain things for their.

560
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 1: State more I did do an event or something with him.

561
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 3: I think that from what I understand, they are trying

562
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 3: to have some kind of relationship because a lot of

563
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 3: their states welfare depends on federal dollars. And my understanding

564
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 3: Laverne and I should check this was she had a

565
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 3: meeting and she didn't realize it was going to be

566
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 3: like a photo op, and I think she was sort

567
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 3: of embarrassed about it. From what I read, How.

568
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 1: Do you work with when he is taking away state funding,

569
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 1: if you know, capitulate when he's retaliating if you against journalists,

570
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 1: against people who sue him, law firms.

571
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 2: Law firm exactly.

572
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 1: It's scary, and it's actually scary to actually speak up

573
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 1: against what he's doing because he's very retaliatory in many ways.

574
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: A streamer, Hassan Piker would just recently returned to the

575
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 1: country and was pulled aside in Global Entry and asked

576
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 1: all these questions about what he does, and he's controversy

577
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 1: in live ways, but he's left to streamer and he

578
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 1: was like, you know, detaining he's an American citizen. Eventually

579
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 1: he was let go, but they, you know, stopped him

580
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 1: and questioned this American citizen.

581
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 3: A lot of intimidation happening and death threats even from

582
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 3: some followers for judges and things like that.

583
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 1: So the trans piece is part of it. It's part

584
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 1: of a larger project. And for me, it's always been

585
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 1: amazing watching the ambidextrous nature of Republicans once they get

586
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,239
Speaker 1: into power that they weren't just passing. I think this

587
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 1: year is like nine hundred anti trans laws have been

588
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 1: introduced in state legislatures.

589
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 3: I know there have been eight executive orders.

590
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 1: Eighty executive orders, nine hundred. I thought we had got

591
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 1: to five hundred like last year. I was like, okay,

592
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 1: that's but nine hundred anti translots is like, what what

593
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 1: are we doing? But I think it's also important to

594
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 1: note that when they couldn't get bathroom bands through in

595
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, they've gotten them through now that sports was

596
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 1: the trojan horse. Then they were like, they're attacking the children,

597
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 1: and what about children, demonizing healthcare for children that the

598
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 1: American Medical Association, of the American Academy of Beadrez, the INCANCIDE,

599
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,360
Speaker 1: every reputable sort of medical institution is said that gender

600
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 1: firming care is the best course of action, and then

601
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 1: they've demonized that. A lot of it is about misinformation

602
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,319
Speaker 1: about trans people. A lot of it is still when

603
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 1: people think about trans people, they think about surgery. Right.

604
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 1: They don't understand that gender firming care, particularly for a

605
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 1: pre prevescent child, is just a name change, maybe growing

606
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,439
Speaker 1: out their hair or cutting their hair, and they wear

607
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 1: different clothes. No one pre pubescent is having any surgery.

608
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 3: First of all, the very few people really under the

609
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 3: age of eighteen are having surgery exactly.

610
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 1: And then hormone blockers are in fact reversible like these

611
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 1: are in.

612
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:57,479
Speaker 3: This they say've been studied enough.

613
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 1: They say that, but we mormone blockers have existed probably

614
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 1: since the seventies or eighties for precocious puberty, so they

615
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 1: actually have been studied. And literally it was an Arkansas

616
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 1: They argued in court that hormone blockers for CIS kids

617
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 1: for precocious puberty healthy fine, but for trans kids no.

618
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 2: So the same medication.

619
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 1: That would block puberty for precocious puberty is healthy for

620
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 1: a CIST child, but it's not healthy for a trans child.

621
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:34,239
Speaker 1: Just defies logic and it's clearly bigotry. They don't want

622
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,359
Speaker 1: trans people to exist, have the ability to transition and

623
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 1: live our lives authentically, period point blank. How are they

624
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,479
Speaker 1: safe for CIS kids and not safe for trans kids?

625
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 1: You can't like, actually look up puberty blockers like online.

626
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: It's everything's trans transtrands, So you have to look up

627
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 1: prokosis puberty to actually do research on puberty blockers and

628
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:57,839
Speaker 1: progosis puberty. And when you do that research, a lot

629
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 1: of it's about if you developed to early, you have

630
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: a growth spurt, but then that growth spurt stops at

631
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 1: like eleven twelve, and then a lot of kids want

632
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 1: to go through puberty with their peers.

633
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 2: But then there is a bone issue if you go

634
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 2: through puberty too.

635
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:17,399
Speaker 1: Early, and so part of the work of into chronologists

636
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 1: with proghosist puberty is studying like your bone growth of

637
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,439
Speaker 1: the child, and this has been happening for decades, right,

638
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 1: And so when you go off the puberty blockers and

639
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 1: you have the puberty there you're supposed to have at

640
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 1: any age, the only issue is potential bone density loss.

641
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,839
Speaker 2: But that's only if you're on them a really long time.

642
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,759
Speaker 1: Usually it's you know, no more than four years, because

643
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 1: you make a decision if you're trans, to either go

644
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,720
Speaker 1: on hormones or not, and you go off the puberty

645
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 1: blockers and then you do hormone replacement therapy. And at

646
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,840
Speaker 1: the end of the day, though, for me, why is

647
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 1: it anybody's business, Like, I think any left leaning person,

648
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 1: obviously the Republicans and Conservists wanted to make this an issue,

649
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 1: But any left leaning person that's that capitulated to saying

650
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 1: that it's up for debate whether trans kids should have

651
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 1: access to gender from and care, I think I've already

652
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 1: conceded the argument, and we're having the argument on the

653
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:14,320
Speaker 1: oppressor's terms. When a kid has cancer and the doctor

654
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 1: says we should be doing this care to save their lives.

655
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 1: There's not a public debate about that. There's not, like,

656
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 1: you know, from people who aren't healthcare professionals, who aren't like,

657
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:25,759
Speaker 1: what do I know about cancer research? What do I

658
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 1: know about how to treat kids with cancer? Don't it's

659
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:30,879
Speaker 1: not up for debate. But when it's trans people, it's

660
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,400
Speaker 1: something we have to debate because you know, these trans

661
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 1: people and I don't understand it, and what are they

662
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,839
Speaker 1: doing and and it's a dehumanization of trans people. It's

663
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 1: a mis education and misunderstanding of us. But that's by design.

664
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 1: When I was on your show, and probably for a

665
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 1: couple of years after that, when they would talk about

666
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 1: trans issues, they would actually bring on trans people.

667
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 2: For the past five years or so, tons of.

668
00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 1: Conversations about trans people with narya transperson insight in the media.

669
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 1: They don't want to talk to us because when we

670
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,759
Speaker 1: talk to trans people, we become human beings and not

671
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 1: these sort of monsters or caricatures that they can kind

672
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:12,360
Speaker 1: of like make up things.

673
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 3: About forty percent of trans children now live in states

674
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 3: that have banned any kind of intervention puberty blocker's hormone therapy,

675
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 3: and it's made me wonder a lot since I've met

676
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 3: a lot of trans families when I did my documentary

677
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 3: in twenty eighteen, the impact this is having on these families.

678
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 3: Can you talk about that?

679
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 2: This is when it gets hard for me, for you know,

680
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 2: it was twenty it was two years ago.

681
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 1: I was in twenty twenty two after Dilomovany calls it

682
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 1: beer gate in her vot. But when butt Light, you know,

683
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,359
Speaker 1: had that moment and kit Rock was shooting up butt

684
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 1: lights and then target people were sort of terrorizing target

685
00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:00,399
Speaker 1: workers because they had pride merchandise. I was like, We've

686
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,359
Speaker 1: lost We've lost the culture. I was like, We've lost

687
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 1: the culture. And that year, close to half the country

688
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,839
Speaker 1: had banned de firming care for young people, and there

689
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 1: were all these things are being challenged in courts, but

690
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 1: there is so many families who were making decisions to

691
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 1: flee states, to flee Texas, to flee Florida, to flee states,

692
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 1: and then these were families who could afford to do it, And.

693
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 2: It just broke my heart.

694
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time crying and just and

695
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 1: kind of feeling like as a public figure, like, what

696
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:31,800
Speaker 1: more could I be doing?

697
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 2: Have I somehow failed?

698
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:35,879
Speaker 1: As this is my fault because we're so visible now

699
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 1: and they were kind of ignoring us. So I've had

700
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 1: a lot of feelings about it. But it's devastating, and

701
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 1: you hear from these families and they relocate. There's some cities,

702
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:48,840
Speaker 1: like places like Minnesota that have become sort of sanctuary

703
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 1: states for trans people. So if you can afford to relocate,

704
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:55,359
Speaker 1: right the whole family's relocating. Sometimes what happens is that

705
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 1: like if there's a two parent household, like the mother

706
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:00,839
Speaker 1: and kids will go and then the fall will stay

707
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 1: back and work, or vice versa if they have a

708
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: better job. Because you have to get a new job

709
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:07,360
Speaker 1: in a new state, you have to be able for

710
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 1: to do it.

711
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 2: A lot of people can't afford to do it.

712
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 1: And then even when you think about getting access to

713
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 1: gender or firming care as a young person, it's actually

714
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 1: a really privileged thing. A lot of insurance doesn't actually

715
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:22,919
Speaker 1: cover gender affirming care still for adults or children. They're

716
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 1: actually supposed to cover it according to Affordable Care Act,

717
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 1: but that's been challenged and so many different ways. But

718
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 1: the devastation of a family having a move, and then

719
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 1: if you do have to stay in a state that

720
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 1: discriminates against you, then where you have to go to

721
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:39,319
Speaker 1: another state sometimes to get a gender firm in care.

722
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:43,439
Speaker 1: There was the main clinic in the South where young

723
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 1: people were going to get gender firming care was actually

724
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 1: the University of Alabama either Birmingham tessk Loosen.

725
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:50,360
Speaker 2: I'm from Alabama.

726
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 1: When the band happened in Alabama, then that clinic was

727
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 1: closed down. So all these people in the South who

728
00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 1: were going to Alabama to get gender firm in care

729
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 1: for their kids don't have that resource anymore. There is

730
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 1: a wonderful organization called Campaign for Souther Inequality that for

731
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 1: many years has been raising money and if people can

732
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 1: afford to donate to them, been raising money to give

733
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:15,239
Speaker 1: scholarships to families to get them to a state where

734
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 1: their child can get access to gender firm in care,

735
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:20,359
Speaker 1: get them to a state to transport them either by

736
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 1: car plane, get them a hotel state so they can

737
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 1: just visit a doctor, and also to relocate if they

738
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 1: need to. So this has been happening for years and

739
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:32,799
Speaker 1: the demand is really strong. And also what happens when

740
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:36,360
Speaker 1: people are migrating places like New York and California, the

741
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 1: gender affirming clinics are overrun and there's long wait lists

742
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 1: because so many people have migrated, and so the people

743
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 1: who already are in New York are having hard times

744
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 1: getting appointments, is what I'm hearing. Or in California or

745
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 1: San Francisco, where you can get access to gender firming care,

746
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 1: wait times so longer because so many people have fled

747
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 1: states where they can get access.

748
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 3: What about those people love learned who can't afford to leave,

749
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 3: who haven't been supported through the fund you mentioned or

750
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 3: other resources. They are stuck in states that refuse to

751
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 3: help them.

752
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 1: They don't have the opportunity to transition. They There's always

753
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:19,799
Speaker 1: been black markets for us.

754
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 3: Was just going to ask you about that.

755
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 2: It's always been black markets for gender firm and care.

756
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:29,400
Speaker 1: And that's kind of where my focus is right now.

757
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 1: Not necessarily a black market, but like mutual aid. And

758
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 1: there's a history like when I started transitioning in nineteen

759
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:38,319
Speaker 1: ninety eight, there was a doctor that had access to

760
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:42,439
Speaker 1: here in New York and he retired like a year

761
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 1: after I started with him, and before I discovered calm Lord.

762
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 1: Then there was this guy named Ralph who had hormones

763
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:51,279
Speaker 1: for the girls. And he found out about Ralph and

764
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 1: he would love it when we were all together, so

765
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:54,919
Speaker 1: we can sell to a lot of girls. And Ralph

766
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 1: would come to my house and I'd buy hormones from Ralph.

767
00:42:57,120 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 1: I don't know where he got them from. I wasn't

768
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 1: getting blood worked. So like, these are the things you

769
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:07,719
Speaker 1: know that like, trans people have always gotten access to

770
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:09,880
Speaker 1: gender firm and care at various ages.

771
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:11,799
Speaker 2: If you know trans.

772
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 1: Folks legal, illegal, we've always gotten access. There's a wonderful

773
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 1: story that Susan Striker, who literally wrote the book on

774
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 1: Transhi history. She's a professor in Arizona. She told me

775
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 1: a story that she interviewed Miss Major Griffith Gracie, who

776
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 1: was a Stonewall legend. She was also part of the

777
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 1: Attaka Riots. And she's still alive. She's in her eighties,

778
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 1: I think. And she was fifteen years old in Chicago

779
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty five and told a story about the

780
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:40,280
Speaker 1: fifteen year old like the sex workers in Chicago's interesting

781
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:42,280
Speaker 1: sex work in nineteen fifty five and on the streets

782
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:45,239
Speaker 1: of Chicago, And she said the girls had hormones in

783
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty five and so when I think about that history,

784
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:50,880
Speaker 1: I'm like, this is a few years after Christine Jorgenson,

785
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 1: and then hormones were possible, and the girls were like,

786
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 1: we're getting these hormones, and so they found a way

787
00:43:56,680 --> 00:44:00,800
Speaker 1: to get access to hormones to transition and earth control bills.

788
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:04,279
Speaker 1: But obviously you always want a healthier way to do it,

789
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,279
Speaker 1: like I since I've been on you know, it's been

790
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 1: twenty seven years, Like I get blood work twice a year.

791
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 1: You want to get your hypothalamus checked, you want to

792
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 1: get make sure your blood closed. There are things you

793
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:17,400
Speaker 1: want to make sure that you're you're healthy with with

794
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 1: your transition, and though when it's criminalized, you don't get

795
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 1: that access, but trans people have always found a way.

796
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 1: And so now what I'm interested in is like how

797
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 1: we as a community come together and support each other

798
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 1: in the face of a government that is really not

799
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:40,400
Speaker 1: going to be effectively there for us. And so we

800
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 1: have to really look at infighting, at the ways in

801
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 1: which that US versus them to pieces and another part

802
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:50,360
Speaker 1: of fascism that we don't allow divide and conquer tactics

803
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:54,400
Speaker 1: to divide us as communities within LGBTQ communities, there's this

804
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 1: conversation happening now that's not new, but it's popularized again.

805
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 1: I think because the Trump adminished as the Trump Administration

806
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:05,239
Speaker 1: is like left lg and B on different websites that

807
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 1: have taken out the t It's like these conversations have

808
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 1: been happening in LGBTQ plus community since civil rights has

809
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 1: been an issue.

810
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:17,240
Speaker 3: Is there infighting right now within the LGBTQ plus.

811
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:19,360
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, a lot of There's a lot of people

812
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 1: who are saying that the trans people have taken it

813
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 1: too far with pronouns and the non binary people and

814
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:27,840
Speaker 1: they've messed it up for all of us. That conversation

815
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 1: is happening now online, but that's not a new conversation.

816
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:35,080
Speaker 1: That is a conversation that's been going on for decades

817
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:38,799
Speaker 1: when it comes to those gay, lesbian, and bisexual people

818
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:40,880
Speaker 1: who are a little more respectable and have always felt

819
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 1: like drag queens and trans people and non binary.

820
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:44,279
Speaker 2: People were not.

821
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 3: Good looks, second class.

822
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there's a there's I mean, historically, there's

823
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 1: a there's an iconic video of Sylvia Rivera, who was

824
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 1: literally their night.

825
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 2: One of the Stonewall rebellion.

826
00:45:57,680 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 1: Stem Wall lasted for like I think about five days

827
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 1: for week where they were fighting the police because they

828
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 1: were just tired of, you know, being criminalized as LGBTQ

829
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 1: plus folks. She was there night one, Silvia Rivera and

830
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:14,920
Speaker 1: a founder as she founded Star Street, this organization called

831
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 1: Street Transvestite Action Revolutionaries.

832
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:18,600
Speaker 2: She and Marsha P. Johnson.

833
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 1: They were doing direct a two trans people, housing them,

834
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:25,040
Speaker 1: they were doing sex work and getting like an apartment

835
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:26,719
Speaker 1: where all the girls can stay so they wouldn't be

836
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:29,680
Speaker 1: on the street at night, and getting them fed, just

837
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 1: real basic stuff when they were incarcerated. When transfer were incarcerated,

838
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 1: because it was illegal to be trans on the street,

839
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:39,120
Speaker 1: you had to have three articles of clothing, so we

840
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 1: were routinely arrested.

841
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:43,959
Speaker 2: They would go and bail the girls out of jail.

842
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:49,239
Speaker 1: They were doing grassroots activism directly for the community, and

843
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:52,360
Speaker 1: she was one of the reasons that Stonewall in the

844
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 1: modern LGBTQ civil rights movement happened in nineteen seventy four

845
00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 1: at the Pride Rally become Pride I think by this

846
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 1: time and not just scale liberation movement. They did not

847
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 1: want her to speak. They did not want her to

848
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 1: speak on the station She had to fight her way

849
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:12,480
Speaker 1: onto the stage, and people booed her as she finally

850
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:14,960
Speaker 1: got onto the stage, and she's like, you need to

851
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:18,760
Speaker 1: quiet down. I've gotten my nose broken for gay liberation,

852
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:21,360
Speaker 1: she said at the time, I've been raped, I've been arrested,

853
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 1: and you treat me this way.

854
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 2: Nineteen seventy four. So it's not new, girl.

855
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:30,839
Speaker 1: I can go on about other examples of how kay

856
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:33,240
Speaker 1: and lesbian folks. If you think about SONDA, the Sexual

857
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:36,239
Speaker 1: Orientation on Discrimination Act that was passed in New York State,

858
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 1: and think in two thousand and one that initially included

859
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:40,800
Speaker 1: trans people, and we're not going to get this passed

860
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:42,799
Speaker 1: if we include trans people. So it took the trans

861
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 1: people out, got SONDA passed, and then we'll get to

862
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 1: you later trans people. Eighteen years later, the Gender Expression

863
00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 1: Non Discrimination Act passed. I was going at almany like

864
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:55,279
Speaker 1: almost every year for Equality and Justice Day talking to

865
00:47:55,400 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 1: legislators about gender and it took eighteen years for us

866
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 1: to have legal productions in New York State. So this

867
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:08,800
Speaker 1: is not new, but it's a tactic that the Trump

868
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 1: administration is like now that like people outside the community

869
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:14,400
Speaker 1: because they're dropping the tea and keeping L and B.

870
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 2: They're like, let's it's the trans people's fault.

871
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:19,880
Speaker 1: And so again it's another divide and conqueror strategy that

872
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:22,919
Speaker 1: we should resist because at the end of the day,

873
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 1: the Trump administration is coming for I think it's very

874
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 1: important to understand that. When Dobbs was overturned, Clarence Thomas

875
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:34,560
Speaker 1: wrote a concurrent opinion. He said any decision that was

876
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:38,760
Speaker 1: made based on the Fourteenth Amendment and substantive due process

877
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:44,720
Speaker 1: should be revisited, including Lawrence v. Texas, which basically decriminalized

878
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 1: gay sex, Griswold versus Connecticut, which decriminalized contraception for married couples, Obergefeld,

879
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 1: which legalized gay marriage. He said, all of these decisions

880
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:59,239
Speaker 1: need to be revisited. And then late a few months later,

881
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:02,120
Speaker 1: cong Grace the Republicans, who had a majority in Congress

882
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:05,280
Speaker 1: at the time, voted whether there should be gay marriage,

883
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:08,040
Speaker 1: and the majority I think two hundred and fifty something

884
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:11,880
Speaker 1: Republicans in the House voted against gay marriage, voted against

885
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 1: right to contraception, voted against the RATU and abortion. Obviously,

886
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 1: they didn't have the Senate to do this, but if

887
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 1: it's up to Republicans, they want to ban a right

888
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:27,399
Speaker 1: to contraception, to abortion and gay marriage. So it's really

889
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:32,239
Speaker 1: important that we don't succumb to divide and conquer strategies

890
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 1: as diverse communities. And so when I think about this,

891
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 1: I don't think about just LGBTQ plus or straight people

892
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 1: or non trans people. I think about working people, and

893
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:45,080
Speaker 1: I think about like when I was on the View

894
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:46,920
Speaker 1: when it sort of went viral, Less said, I think

895
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:49,840
Speaker 1: they're worried about the wrong one percent. Trans people aren't

896
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:51,879
Speaker 1: the reads and you can't afford eggs, We're not the reason,

897
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:54,239
Speaker 1: like that your rent is too high, you can't, you know,

898
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:57,200
Speaker 1: buy a house. I think there's a different one percent.

899
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:01,279
Speaker 1: And I think that it's so clear with Doge. I

900
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:04,799
Speaker 1: think it's like it was just so clear with this billionaire,

901
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:08,239
Speaker 1: the richest man in the world, like gutting the Social

902
00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:13,280
Speaker 1: Security Administration and instead of doing it through legislation, firing people,

903
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:17,759
Speaker 1: making it inefficient, making all these government agencies inefficient, to

904
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 1: basically dismantle them.

905
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 2: That's part of part twenty twenty five.

906
00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:24,719
Speaker 1: And for years they wanted to privatize education so that

907
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:28,800
Speaker 1: they could like get vouchers so rich people go to

908
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:31,320
Speaker 1: school and then poor people a lot of it's about

909
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:35,280
Speaker 1: privatizations in this neoliberal kind of thing, to privatize everything

910
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:38,080
Speaker 1: so that they can make everything part of the stock

911
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:39,240
Speaker 1: market and make more money.

912
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:40,960
Speaker 2: So much of it's about that.

913
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:51,279
Speaker 3: Hi everyone, it's me Katie Couric. You know, if you've

914
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:54,000
Speaker 3: been following me on social media, you know I love

915
00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 3: to cook, or at least try, especially alongside some of

916
00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 3: my favorite chefs and foodies like Benny Blank, Jake Cohen,

917
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 3: Lighty Hoik, Alison Roman and Inagarten. So I started a

918
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 3: free newsletter called good Taste to share recipes, tips and

919
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:13,360
Speaker 3: kitchen mustaves. Just sign up at katiecurreic dot com slash

920
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 3: good Taste. That's k A t I E C O

921
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:20,279
Speaker 3: U r I c dot com slash good Taste. I

922
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 3: promise your taste buds will be happy you did.

923
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:34,200
Speaker 1: If there's an US versus them, which I don't like

924
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:36,359
Speaker 1: to subscribe to, it's a it's.

925
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 2: Not a culture war, it's a class war.

926
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:41,400
Speaker 1: So then if I think it's about if we are

927
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:45,239
Speaker 1: to come together, we have to find ways as working people.

928
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 1: When I say working people, if your money is not

929
00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 1: made through the labor of someone else, you're a working person.

930
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 1: If you have to show up somewhere to make your money.

931
00:51:55,040 --> 00:51:59,759
Speaker 1: You're a working person, and so working people are being

932
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:01,960
Speaker 1: screwed over across the board.

933
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:05,040
Speaker 2: And so I think if we can get broad coalition

934
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:06,520
Speaker 2: of workers.

935
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:13,080
Speaker 1: Across gender, race, age, workers coming together because there's a

936
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:17,400
Speaker 1: tradition with labor movements that we can understand like that

937
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 1: people should have. You know, we have a five day

938
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:22,759
Speaker 1: work week because of labor movement, right, coming together across

939
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:26,239
Speaker 1: these differences. But I think that it becomes difficult when

940
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:28,960
Speaker 1: a lot of people if don't want to work with

941
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:32,799
Speaker 1: someone who maybe hasn't like interrogated the ways in which

942
00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:36,160
Speaker 1: they've internalized white supremacy or internalized transphobia, and we don't

943
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 1: trust each other. And when I say this, so there's

944
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:42,759
Speaker 1: like this systemic piece that has to happen, but then

945
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 1: there's a personal thing that has to happen, the individual

946
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:48,719
Speaker 1: thing and the interpersonal thing. I invite all of us

947
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:55,520
Speaker 1: to interrogate the ways in which we've internalized transphobia, patriarchy,

948
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:59,719
Speaker 1: white supremacy. I often say, if I a black trans woman,

949
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:06,200
Speaker 1: I'm mobile Alabama. I'm not automatically anti racist because I'm black.

950
00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:08,880
Speaker 1: I grew up in the same culture I've internalized the

951
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:13,240
Speaker 1: same anti blackness, the same white supremacist ideas about myself

952
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:15,359
Speaker 1: and my people that other people have had that I've

953
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:18,160
Speaker 1: had to unlearn. I've had to decolonize my mind. It

954
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:21,080
Speaker 1: took me twenty six years to transition because I internalized

955
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:24,960
Speaker 1: so much transphobia as a child and was learned to

956
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 1: hate the feminine part of myself that I couldn't transition

957
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:31,120
Speaker 1: until I moved to New York and met trans people

958
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:34,759
Speaker 1: and then start to unlearn that internalized transphobia, which is

959
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:39,120
Speaker 1: a continuing process. Internalized classism. I did an episode of

960
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:42,319
Speaker 1: my podcast where we shame poor people. We shame poor

961
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:44,799
Speaker 1: people in this country. I grew up with so much

962
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 1: shame about being working class, and so we have to

963
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:54,800
Speaker 1: do this work to understand how we've internalized oppression, oppression

964
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 1: that can hurt us and then hurt other people. That

965
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 1: work has to happen, I think, so that we can

966
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:06,719
Speaker 1: come together, and there is a concerted effort right now

967
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:08,080
Speaker 1: to say that you don't need to do any of

968
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:12,680
Speaker 1: that work. That anybody's saying that like there's internalized bias,

969
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:15,839
Speaker 1: or there's you know, we are racist country, like they're

970
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:18,880
Speaker 1: lying to you and they're like, you know, saying America

971
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:19,359
Speaker 1: isn't great.

972
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:22,240
Speaker 2: And it's not that America isn't.

973
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:24,960
Speaker 1: Great because we have a racist history, that we were

974
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:26,960
Speaker 1: born on a genocide of a Native people.

975
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:29,880
Speaker 2: Those are just facts. Those are facts. It's like, what

976
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:32,759
Speaker 2: do we do with that? How do we heal from that?

977
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:37,920
Speaker 1: And we have never ever in the United States really

978
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:41,600
Speaker 1: fully reckoned with the legacy of that genocide.

979
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:44,920
Speaker 2: A little bit more with reservations, but that's a mess.

980
00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:47,640
Speaker 1: You know. When I interviewed dot To Jeory degru who

981
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:50,319
Speaker 1: coined the term post traumatic slaves syndrome, she would say,

982
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:53,960
Speaker 1: after emancipation, there wasn't a mass movement to like do

983
00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:59,320
Speaker 1: therapy for black folks who had been brutalized for hundreds

984
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:03,080
Speaker 1: of years and made to work for free, work for

985
00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:06,480
Speaker 1: free to build this country, and the reparations that were

986
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:09,480
Speaker 1: allegedly supposed to have them from free labor, that that

987
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:13,640
Speaker 1: didn't happen. And then in the wake of emancipation and reconstruction,

988
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:17,600
Speaker 1: the klu Klux Klan emerged. Right, we have not been

989
00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:21,120
Speaker 1: able to reckon with and it's every generation when we

990
00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:23,920
Speaker 1: talk about racism, it's like, let's not talk about it,

991
00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:25,200
Speaker 1: let's just move past it.

992
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:27,080
Speaker 2: Let's let it go in the past.

993
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:30,880
Speaker 1: That's in the and it's not it's it just isn't

994
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:34,319
Speaker 1: the effects of if you just look at housing. I'm

995
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:36,399
Speaker 1: Richard Rosstein's wonderful book Color of Law.

996
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:38,919
Speaker 3: If you look at just My daughter loves that book.

997
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:41,600
Speaker 2: It's so good. I interviewed him from my podcast too.

998
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:42,959
Speaker 2: It's so good.

999
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:45,759
Speaker 1: And when you look at the areas that were redlined

1000
00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:49,799
Speaker 1: back in the day, if they haven't been gentrified, there's

1001
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:54,160
Speaker 1: still quote unquote slums. There's still low income neighborhoods with

1002
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:57,360
Speaker 1: bad schools that are dilapidated neighborhoods.

1003
00:55:57,400 --> 00:55:59,480
Speaker 2: The areas that were redlined that were.

1004
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:03,240
Speaker 1: Black people bull couldn't buy homes, and so that legacy

1005
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:06,560
Speaker 1: because even when I'm ross seen in his books says, well,

1006
00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:09,400
Speaker 1: they passed the Fairhousing Act in nineteen sixty eight, but

1007
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:14,239
Speaker 1: they didn't do anything retroactively to fix all of the

1008
00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:19,880
Speaker 1: discrimination that it happened before that. Nothing, And so it

1009
00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:22,839
Speaker 1: just keeps happening. And then there's real estate agents now

1010
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:26,279
Speaker 1: who don't rent. There was a football star who's from

1011
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:28,239
Speaker 1: Alabama who wanted to buy a house in like a

1012
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:31,160
Speaker 1: wealthy neighborhood in Alabama, and the real estate agent wouldn't

1013
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:32,279
Speaker 1: even show him houses, you know.

1014
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:33,200
Speaker 2: So there's like so.

1015
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:38,280
Speaker 1: Many institutional things that are still happening with real estate agents.

1016
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:41,680
Speaker 1: And then when we gentrify neighborhoods, real estate agents and

1017
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:45,600
Speaker 1: colluding with mayors and police to get certain groups out

1018
00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 1: of neighborhoods so they can gentrify them. There's structural things

1019
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:56,359
Speaker 1: in place still to keep us segregated, to reinforce an inequality.

1020
00:56:56,640 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 1: And if you just look at the wealth gap between

1021
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:01,480
Speaker 1: black and white people, there's just so there's like so

1022
00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:06,800
Speaker 1: much evidence that racism is still structural in this country,

1023
00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:11,719
Speaker 1: and we have not done the work to undo that

1024
00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:15,319
Speaker 1: because there's such a resistance to actually like talk about

1025
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:18,920
Speaker 1: the problem, because I think part of it is power

1026
00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:21,560
Speaker 1: people in power who just want to keep that power.

1027
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:23,760
Speaker 2: But for those of us who are well.

1028
00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:26,760
Speaker 1: Meaning and want to learn and want to evolve, it's

1029
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:31,400
Speaker 1: the fight, flight or freeze thing. Instead of calling someone

1030
00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:36,200
Speaker 1: racist or transphobic, I prefer to like say this behavior

1031
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:42,280
Speaker 1: is consistent with a history of transphobic behavior, because behavior

1032
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:45,880
Speaker 1: can be changed, Racism can be unlearned. I've unlearned so

1033
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:49,080
Speaker 1: to exist as myself now I've had to unlearn a

1034
00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:51,960
Speaker 1: lot of racism, a lot of internalized transphobia.

1035
00:57:52,080 --> 00:57:54,640
Speaker 2: Be myself. I'm a work in progress. I still have

1036
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:57,040
Speaker 2: to do that work, but that work is possible.

1037
00:57:57,520 --> 00:58:02,120
Speaker 1: You are a great example of learning implacit bias or

1038
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:05,960
Speaker 1: just misinformation about trans people and what's You are a

1039
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:11,280
Speaker 1: great example of transformation. Someone who got it wrong publicly

1040
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:14,040
Speaker 1: was publicly shamed. And I'm not a fan of publicly

1041
00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:17,760
Speaker 1: shaming people. I don't think that's effective. But you've transformed

1042
00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:21,680
Speaker 1: and you're now a fierce ally for our community, and

1043
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:26,080
Speaker 1: I wish we had more examples of that, and we

1044
00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:29,000
Speaker 1: don't have a lot of them. The only way that

1045
00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:32,200
Speaker 1: we can have that is through that Oh my god,

1046
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:35,320
Speaker 1: save space. And the reason we have to have safe

1047
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:39,400
Speaker 1: space is because neurobiologically we are programmed.

1048
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:40,360
Speaker 2: It's just biological.

1049
00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:43,960
Speaker 1: We feel threatened, unsafe, fight, fight fleas and once we're

1050
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:47,000
Speaker 1: in that flight or freeze, we go into limpic brain.

1051
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:49,320
Speaker 1: We're not in our prefrontal cortex. We can't hear. We're

1052
00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:53,240
Speaker 1: just in defense mode. So we have to create a

1053
00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:56,640
Speaker 1: safe space where there is love. I'm not going to

1054
00:58:56,720 --> 00:58:59,720
Speaker 1: attack you. Maybe it's going to be a little uncomfortable,

1055
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:05,360
Speaker 1: but discomfort is not unsafety, right, So we have to

1056
00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 1: also create a tolerance for discomfort, that distinguishing between being

1057
00:59:11,680 --> 00:59:15,520
Speaker 1: uncomfortable and being unsafe, so that we can have the conversations,

1058
00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:19,640
Speaker 1: have those transformative moments, so that we can get past this.

1059
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:23,520
Speaker 3: It was hard before the Laverne. I mean, it's almost

1060
00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:28,760
Speaker 3: impossible now. It feels like in the current climate, this

1061
00:59:29,160 --> 00:59:34,120
Speaker 3: was something that was considered almost radical ten years ago,

1062
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:39,280
Speaker 3: and now there's so much silencing. How do you create

1063
00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:44,560
Speaker 3: that space and how do you possibly in this current

1064
00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:46,840
Speaker 3: environment change this narrative.

1065
00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:53,760
Speaker 1: Well, for me, I think there's some people who are

1066
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:59,320
Speaker 1: fascist and capitulating the fascism because they're afraid, because they

1067
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:01,920
Speaker 1: just want to be alive with power, And I'm not

1068
01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:04,920
Speaker 1: convinced that those are the people we're going to be

1069
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:06,160
Speaker 1: able to change.

1070
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:06,880
Speaker 2: Right, And so.

1071
01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:13,400
Speaker 1: You can't meet fascism with like let's sit down and

1072
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:17,040
Speaker 1: have a conversation. I'm so upset with Evin Usome sitting

1073
01:00:17,080 --> 01:00:19,840
Speaker 1: down with all these white supremacists because it's like he's like,

1074
01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:23,480
Speaker 1: let's sit down with Charlie Kirk, who is a white bandmisist,

1075
01:00:23,640 --> 01:00:26,520
Speaker 1: or Steve Bannon, who are white supremacist, you know, transphobic,

1076
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:30,320
Speaker 1: you know, they don't think I should exist, Like, what's

1077
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:34,040
Speaker 1: the conversation going to be? So I think, like you said,

1078
01:00:34,080 --> 01:00:36,080
Speaker 1: who are we having the conversations with? First of all,

1079
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:39,480
Speaker 1: and I think we have to fight. It has to

1080
01:00:39,560 --> 01:00:43,280
Speaker 1: be a fight against fascism, and we can't capitulate. There's

1081
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:45,280
Speaker 1: not a conversation to be had with a fascist.

1082
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:47,520
Speaker 3: And to your point, we need to bring all these

1083
01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:52,800
Speaker 3: diverse groups together and not do in fighting and not say, well,

1084
01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:54,680
Speaker 3: this is good for you, it's going to be bad

1085
01:00:54,760 --> 01:00:56,920
Speaker 3: for me, or you're going to hurt us in some

1086
01:00:57,080 --> 01:00:58,439
Speaker 3: ways in terms of the problem.

1087
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:01,640
Speaker 1: But it can't be like let's just agree on one

1088
01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:05,360
Speaker 1: thing and still be racist and transphobacan like that doesn't

1089
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:07,880
Speaker 1: really work, I think in terms of building coalition because

1090
01:01:07,920 --> 01:01:08,720
Speaker 1: we don't trust each other.

1091
01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:11,840
Speaker 2: Because we don't, we can't come together. So we have

1092
01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:14,440
Speaker 2: to be wary of in fighting, but.

1093
01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:19,080
Speaker 1: Understand who the if stakeholders are, well the stakeholders are,

1094
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:21,800
Speaker 1: who actually has power is Ultimately this is about power.

1095
01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:24,200
Speaker 1: There is the changing of hearts and minds, and there's

1096
01:01:24,240 --> 01:01:27,040
Speaker 1: the empathetic piece that's interpersonal and what we can do

1097
01:01:27,120 --> 01:01:27,800
Speaker 1: in our lives.

1098
01:01:27,920 --> 01:01:30,440
Speaker 3: I wanted to mention that when my documentary came out,

1099
01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:33,720
Speaker 3: Doctor Oz, who's now working for the administration, said something

1100
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:36,120
Speaker 3: to me. He said, it's hard to hate up close.

1101
01:01:36,520 --> 01:01:40,200
Speaker 3: So I think what you mean about that interpersonal that exposure,

1102
01:01:40,360 --> 01:01:43,919
Speaker 3: those conversations one on one or with a small group

1103
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:44,400
Speaker 3: of people.

1104
01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:50,320
Speaker 1: But then you know, the structural piece is requires you know, movements,

1105
01:01:50,360 --> 01:01:54,160
Speaker 1: and at this point, our government is captured, captured by

1106
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:56,960
Speaker 1: fascists now, and they're capitulating the fascists. If in the

1107
01:01:57,080 --> 01:02:00,920
Speaker 1: midterms there could be some kind of reckoning, is there

1108
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:04,040
Speaker 1: a benevolent billionaire who can fund and I and I've

1109
01:02:04,080 --> 01:02:05,680
Speaker 1: talked to expose this to Sam Seat or a few

1110
01:02:05,720 --> 01:02:09,800
Speaker 1: other people who could fund a fifty state ballot initiative

1111
01:02:10,120 --> 01:02:13,680
Speaker 1: to get money out of politics. That is the first

1112
01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:17,120
Speaker 1: order of business I think for structural change in the

1113
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:20,040
Speaker 1: United States is to get money out of politics. The

1114
01:02:20,120 --> 01:02:23,520
Speaker 1: politicians still happening incentive to do this. Is it constitutional

1115
01:02:23,560 --> 01:02:26,200
Speaker 1: because it is since United These are questions I have.

1116
01:02:26,680 --> 01:02:29,600
Speaker 1: But if there's a Mark Cuban or Oprah, I don't

1117
01:02:29,640 --> 01:02:32,360
Speaker 1: know who the billionaire is. I believe in my heart

1118
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:36,760
Speaker 1: that Republicans, Democrats independence, if they had a ballot initiative

1119
01:02:36,800 --> 01:02:39,040
Speaker 1: and had the clear information. I think they would vote

1120
01:02:39,080 --> 01:02:41,360
Speaker 1: to get money out of politics. I think most of

1121
01:02:41,480 --> 01:02:44,600
Speaker 1: us understand that our politicians aren't working for us, and

1122
01:02:44,760 --> 01:02:48,240
Speaker 1: that we vote people in and nothing changes because of

1123
01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:53,840
Speaker 1: special interest money corporations funding politicians. So I think on

1124
01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:57,760
Speaker 1: a structural level, that has to be a fundamental change

1125
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:00,320
Speaker 1: first and foremost, and then maybe we can talk about

1126
01:03:00,400 --> 01:03:05,800
Speaker 1: healthcare and wages. I was salted with the Biden administration

1127
01:03:06,080 --> 01:03:08,680
Speaker 1: up front when they didn't fight for minimum wage. When

1128
01:03:08,680 --> 01:03:11,280
Speaker 1: Bernie dropped out, it said all he asked for and

1129
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:14,040
Speaker 1: you should have asked for more, said fifteen dollar minimum wage,

1130
01:03:14,440 --> 01:03:17,560
Speaker 1: and Biden just said a Senate parliamentarian, had you heard

1131
01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:21,560
Speaker 1: the center parliamentarian before twenty twenty one? I mean maybe

1132
01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:23,760
Speaker 1: you have, you're in this business. I had not heard

1133
01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:26,360
Speaker 1: the Senate parliamentary. I was like, Senate parliamentary. What I

1134
01:03:26,520 --> 01:03:30,040
Speaker 1: do know now is that when the Senate parliamentarian challenged

1135
01:03:30,040 --> 01:03:32,560
Speaker 1: the Bush administration, they fired the c Intate parliamentarian got

1136
01:03:32,600 --> 01:03:33,000
Speaker 1: a new one.

1137
01:03:33,680 --> 01:03:37,080
Speaker 2: So that is like there is a bully pulpit that

1138
01:03:37,200 --> 01:03:38,200
Speaker 2: you have when you're president.

1139
01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:41,840
Speaker 1: And I just but at again, the business interest that

1140
01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:44,480
Speaker 1: fund the Biden campaign did not want to raise minimum

1141
01:03:44,560 --> 01:03:46,560
Speaker 1: wage so like, I think we got to get money

1142
01:03:46,560 --> 01:03:49,960
Speaker 1: out of politics and have structural change, but interpersonally, and

1143
01:03:50,080 --> 01:03:53,080
Speaker 1: then I think with as storytellers and the media, we

1144
01:03:53,160 --> 01:03:56,000
Speaker 1: have to do a better job of humanizing everyone. And

1145
01:03:56,240 --> 01:03:59,800
Speaker 1: it's the problem is that it's not the algorithm is

1146
01:03:59,840 --> 01:04:02,720
Speaker 1: not really set up for empathy and love. The algorithms

1147
01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:04,680
Speaker 1: are set up for like us being at each other's

1148
01:04:04,720 --> 01:04:09,760
Speaker 1: throats and fighting. So again resisting that in capitalism, how

1149
01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:14,240
Speaker 1: do we elevate voices that are loving, that are humanizing,

1150
01:04:14,720 --> 01:04:19,280
Speaker 1: and beware of dehumanization even when we disagree with people,

1151
01:04:19,680 --> 01:04:25,000
Speaker 1: And dehumanization happens primarily through words and images to put

1152
01:04:25,120 --> 01:04:28,280
Speaker 1: a certain class into a space of moral exclusion, meaning

1153
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:32,560
Speaker 1: like we aren't as human beings hardwired to be violent

1154
01:04:32,600 --> 01:04:34,800
Speaker 1: against each other, to discriminate against each other.

1155
01:04:35,120 --> 01:04:38,000
Speaker 2: But when we put this group into moral exclusion.

1156
01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:40,400
Speaker 1: And dehumanize them, then we can take away their rights,

1157
01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:42,880
Speaker 1: then we can discriminate against them. We've done that with

1158
01:04:42,960 --> 01:04:47,840
Speaker 1: the dehumanization of immigrants. I mean, it's so clear how

1159
01:04:47,880 --> 01:04:50,560
Speaker 1: the immigrants have been dehumanized. They're eating the cats, they're

1160
01:04:50,560 --> 01:04:52,640
Speaker 1: eating the dogs. I mean that was like such a

1161
01:04:52,840 --> 01:04:58,480
Speaker 1: clear example of dehumanization. They successfully dehumanized trans people, like

1162
01:04:58,600 --> 01:05:01,400
Speaker 1: saying that, you know, calling us predator and so are you.

1163
01:05:01,480 --> 01:05:05,440
Speaker 3: Seeing that as the most effective campaign commercial in twenty

1164
01:05:05,600 --> 01:05:09,680
Speaker 3: twenty four with Kamala Harris, you know Donald Trump, Kamala

1165
01:05:09,760 --> 01:05:12,360
Speaker 3: Harris is for they them, Donald Trump is for you.

1166
01:05:12,800 --> 01:05:13,000
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1167
01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:16,560
Speaker 3: And the trans prisoners, it was it was.

1168
01:05:16,680 --> 01:05:19,080
Speaker 2: Trans immigrant prisoners. They like really brought it out.

1169
01:05:19,200 --> 01:05:22,120
Speaker 3: They brought it brought yeah, and it was the trifecta.

1170
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:24,080
Speaker 2: And I was, you know, I have to say I was.

1171
01:05:24,240 --> 01:05:26,920
Speaker 1: I had moments of being afraid to speak up too

1172
01:05:27,040 --> 01:05:29,320
Speaker 1: much during that campaign because I was like, well, my

1173
01:05:29,520 --> 01:05:31,560
Speaker 1: transigentity is kind of toxic right now. And I think

1174
01:05:31,680 --> 01:05:35,360
Speaker 1: Republicans thought about transit were more than Democrats did. Kamala said, out,

1175
01:05:35,400 --> 01:05:37,959
Speaker 1: follow the law, and instead of following up and saying

1176
01:05:38,000 --> 01:05:40,280
Speaker 1: that this is a policy under Trump as well, that

1177
01:05:40,480 --> 01:05:45,080
Speaker 1: like basically, if someone is in prison, then they are

1178
01:05:45,240 --> 01:05:48,720
Speaker 1: entitled to healthcare. It's inhumane that that is the law.

1179
01:05:49,320 --> 01:05:53,600
Speaker 1: And transalthcare is healthcare. And if a person is an

1180
01:05:53,680 --> 01:05:57,320
Speaker 1: immigrant and they're incarcerated, they're entitled to healthcare. And that

1181
01:05:57,480 --> 01:06:00,920
Speaker 1: healthcare can be trans healthcare or could be whatever. And

1182
01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:03,600
Speaker 1: so often when people need health care in prison diabetic

1183
01:06:03,720 --> 01:06:05,760
Speaker 1: if you're a diabetic. Yeah, but a lot of times,

1184
01:06:05,800 --> 01:06:07,920
Speaker 1: if it's really expensive, they'll release them. They'll do a

1185
01:06:07,960 --> 01:06:09,440
Speaker 1: compassion release. They don't have to pay for it.

1186
01:06:09,720 --> 01:06:10,760
Speaker 2: But that is the law.

1187
01:06:10,920 --> 01:06:13,520
Speaker 3: Do you think they were too afraid. Yes, they wanted

1188
01:06:13,560 --> 01:06:14,720
Speaker 3: to change the subject.

1189
01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:19,920
Speaker 1: It was clear that Republicans had successfully dehumanized trans people.

1190
01:06:20,280 --> 01:06:23,800
Speaker 1: Any mention of trans people was like bad, and I

1191
01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:26,400
Speaker 1: think that was a misstep. Now, I think if she

1192
01:06:26,480 --> 01:06:28,960
Speaker 1: had addressed it and said this is the law, clearly,

1193
01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:32,560
Speaker 1: this is the law. It is cool and unusual punishment

1194
01:06:32,800 --> 01:06:35,320
Speaker 1: to deny people health care when they're incarcerated in the

1195
01:06:35,400 --> 01:06:37,880
Speaker 1: United States of America, and this is the law, and

1196
01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:40,360
Speaker 1: this is the law under Trump as well, and explain

1197
01:06:40,520 --> 01:06:44,800
Speaker 1: that and really leaning into we want equality for everyone,

1198
01:06:45,280 --> 01:06:48,400
Speaker 1: we want health care for everyone. And so she But

1199
01:06:48,600 --> 01:06:50,680
Speaker 1: part of the problem with Harris, I think and the

1200
01:06:50,760 --> 01:06:53,480
Speaker 1: words out that that would happen is that for me,

1201
01:06:53,680 --> 01:06:59,120
Speaker 1: what I saw, it's her triangulating between what the donors want.

1202
01:07:00,080 --> 01:07:03,000
Speaker 2: The rollout was good, and Tim Walls with the weird

1203
01:07:03,240 --> 01:07:03,640
Speaker 2: was good.

1204
01:07:03,760 --> 01:07:07,120
Speaker 1: We're not going back was good, and then typical Democratic

1205
01:07:07,160 --> 01:07:09,840
Speaker 1: consultants came in and said, you can't say weird anymore,

1206
01:07:09,880 --> 01:07:12,160
Speaker 1: which was really working. We need to appeal to the

1207
01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:17,640
Speaker 1: suburbs and get list chaining out those missteps and her

1208
01:07:17,760 --> 01:07:20,080
Speaker 1: not talking about price scouging enough, like there was a

1209
01:07:20,120 --> 01:07:25,040
Speaker 1: few issues, like the price scouging was great, healthcare and

1210
01:07:25,200 --> 01:07:28,680
Speaker 1: then standing up for trans people and just civil rights

1211
01:07:28,720 --> 01:07:31,640
Speaker 1: in general, picking a few issues because people like.

1212
01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:32,440
Speaker 2: What is she about?

1213
01:07:33,240 --> 01:07:34,600
Speaker 3: Would you ever run for office?

1214
01:07:37,360 --> 01:07:41,280
Speaker 1: I always say that you are so smart, the upper research,

1215
01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:43,440
Speaker 1: the upper research would be fierce.

1216
01:07:43,560 --> 01:07:46,480
Speaker 2: I own everything in my past. It's people have asked

1217
01:07:46,520 --> 01:07:47,080
Speaker 2: me that before.

1218
01:07:47,320 --> 01:07:49,720
Speaker 1: And when I think about what they do to politicians

1219
01:07:49,840 --> 01:07:53,920
Speaker 1: like with AOC and how they've demonized her, it's so

1220
01:07:54,160 --> 01:07:57,920
Speaker 1: vicious and so mean, and I'm really sensitive. The answer

1221
01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:00,280
Speaker 1: right now is no, it's something I've thought. It's I

1222
01:08:00,400 --> 01:08:02,760
Speaker 1: thought about it a little bit more, but running a

1223
01:08:02,840 --> 01:08:07,000
Speaker 1: campaign raising money. I'm an artist more than I am

1224
01:08:07,160 --> 01:08:10,160
Speaker 1: like a politician. Like I've always loved and been intrigued

1225
01:08:10,160 --> 01:08:14,520
Speaker 1: by politics and followed it my whole life. But right now, no,

1226
01:08:15,320 --> 01:08:17,880
Speaker 1: there are other effective ways I think to make an.

1227
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:19,920
Speaker 3: Impact, and hopefully this is one of them.

1228
01:08:20,280 --> 01:08:23,240
Speaker 1: Hopefully because I think that, like there's an inside strategy

1229
01:08:23,280 --> 01:08:24,040
Speaker 1: and outside strategy.

1230
01:08:24,040 --> 01:08:24,960
Speaker 2: When AOC went in.

1231
01:08:25,160 --> 01:08:27,240
Speaker 1: She's a good example because she came in with this

1232
01:08:27,840 --> 01:08:31,640
Speaker 1: mandate and then you saw Nancy Pelosi just like not

1233
01:08:31,800 --> 01:08:33,479
Speaker 1: have her own commit You have to be on the

1234
01:08:33,720 --> 01:08:36,160
Speaker 1: committees when you're in Congress right to actually have power.

1235
01:08:36,760 --> 01:08:39,760
Speaker 1: And then the outside game I have agitating using her followers.

1236
01:08:40,080 --> 01:08:43,400
Speaker 1: You just alienate the people there. And unfortunately the Democrats

1237
01:08:43,479 --> 01:08:46,000
Speaker 1: have this seniority thing too that they really need to

1238
01:08:46,080 --> 01:08:48,520
Speaker 1: let go of that the Republicans don't have. The Republicans

1239
01:08:48,560 --> 01:08:50,840
Speaker 1: are more responsive to their base than the Democrats are.

1240
01:08:51,160 --> 01:08:55,720
Speaker 1: But the problem with the Democratic base is that is progressive.

1241
01:08:55,920 --> 01:08:59,760
Speaker 1: It's tends to want healthcare for everyone and to check

1242
01:08:59,800 --> 01:09:04,320
Speaker 1: co operations, and that is against again, the corporate interests

1243
01:09:04,360 --> 01:09:07,479
Speaker 1: that the Democratic Party as well as the Republican Party

1244
01:09:07,560 --> 01:09:08,200
Speaker 1: is beholden too.

1245
01:09:08,320 --> 01:09:10,639
Speaker 3: So that's why we need to get money out of politics.

1246
01:09:10,720 --> 01:09:12,920
Speaker 1: That's why, and that's why when you look at a

1247
01:09:13,000 --> 01:09:16,360
Speaker 1: Bernie or an AOC, those are the ones that I

1248
01:09:16,360 --> 01:09:19,519
Speaker 1: don't trust any politicians really, but I trust more the

1249
01:09:19,600 --> 01:09:21,280
Speaker 1: politicians who don't take corporate money.

1250
01:09:22,000 --> 01:09:26,320
Speaker 3: Whoo wow, Laburne, I'm exhausted and you must be too.

1251
01:09:26,800 --> 01:09:30,360
Speaker 1: I've invigorated. Strangely enough, I'm invigorated. I love these conversations.

1252
01:09:30,520 --> 01:09:34,799
Speaker 3: I love listening to you. I love sharing from you. Honestly,

1253
01:09:35,080 --> 01:09:39,920
Speaker 3: I always appreciate your perspective and your depth of not

1254
01:09:40,120 --> 01:09:45,840
Speaker 3: only knowledge, but sort of your bottomless compassion for people.

1255
01:09:46,640 --> 01:09:49,479
Speaker 1: It's all about love, but I'm also learning. I'm a student,

1256
01:09:49,640 --> 01:09:52,000
Speaker 1: like I'm learning. I'm like, I got to learn about fascism.

1257
01:09:52,240 --> 01:09:54,200
Speaker 1: I got to learn about this. So being a constant

1258
01:09:54,280 --> 01:09:58,000
Speaker 1: student is really important to me. And then it has

1259
01:09:58,080 --> 01:10:01,639
Speaker 1: to be about love. This is wonderful video with Cornell

1260
01:10:01,720 --> 01:10:04,600
Speaker 1: West and Bell Hooks Fro nineteen ninety seven where they

1261
01:10:04,720 --> 01:10:07,800
Speaker 1: talk and they talk about like how Belle has disagreed

1262
01:10:07,880 --> 01:10:10,200
Speaker 1: with Cornell West big millionaire in March and other things,

1263
01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:14,040
Speaker 1: and it's hard. It's just hard to like, have I

1264
01:10:14,040 --> 01:10:15,960
Speaker 1: haven't seen you in a while. I still love you

1265
01:10:16,280 --> 01:10:18,639
Speaker 1: even though I disagree with you. And then they quote

1266
01:10:18,960 --> 01:10:22,360
Speaker 1: Martin Luther King's one of his speeches and the quote,

1267
01:10:22,400 --> 01:10:25,160
Speaker 1: I've chosen to love is the beginning.

1268
01:10:25,200 --> 01:10:26,960
Speaker 2: I've chosen to love.

1269
01:10:27,680 --> 01:10:30,320
Speaker 1: And I think that in this very cynical society and

1270
01:10:30,520 --> 01:10:33,320
Speaker 1: when politics, when people I remember joy and re laughing

1271
01:10:33,360 --> 01:10:35,519
Speaker 1: and Corey Booker's face when you talked about love, when

1272
01:10:35,560 --> 01:10:37,920
Speaker 1: he was running for a resident, literally laughing his face,

1273
01:10:37,960 --> 01:10:39,960
Speaker 1: and I was just like, oh, this is sad. There's

1274
01:10:40,000 --> 01:10:43,479
Speaker 1: a cynicism. And I think when we love and have

1275
01:10:43,680 --> 01:10:47,519
Speaker 1: empathy and rehumanize, those are the that's the work to

1276
01:10:47,640 --> 01:10:50,560
Speaker 1: love each other better, to have more empathy, and to

1277
01:10:50,760 --> 01:10:54,240
Speaker 1: rehumanize ourselves in each other, because when we dehumanize other people,

1278
01:10:54,280 --> 01:10:57,559
Speaker 1: we also dehumanize ourselves. And so how do we get

1279
01:10:57,640 --> 01:11:01,040
Speaker 1: into that space of rehumanization and empathy? And I think

1280
01:11:01,160 --> 01:11:06,000
Speaker 1: the love, love for ourselves, love for each other. Empathy.

1281
01:11:06,680 --> 01:11:08,800
Speaker 1: Sympathy is feeling for us. Empathy, It is feeling with

1282
01:11:09,560 --> 01:11:14,080
Speaker 1: and rehumanizing that everyone is a human being, deserving of rights,

1283
01:11:14,520 --> 01:11:19,080
Speaker 1: deserving of grace. People can do something wrong, maybe it

1284
01:11:19,160 --> 01:11:21,439
Speaker 1: needs to go to jail, but you're still a human being.

1285
01:11:22,240 --> 01:11:24,800
Speaker 1: Accountability punishment, yes, but you're still human.

1286
01:11:26,160 --> 01:11:38,160
Speaker 3: Thank you Laverne, Thank you Katie, Thanks for listening everyone.

1287
01:11:38,640 --> 01:11:41,200
Speaker 3: If you have a question for me, a subject you

1288
01:11:41,280 --> 01:11:43,479
Speaker 3: want us to cover, or you want to share your

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Speaker 3: thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world, reach out,

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Speaker 3: send me a DM on Instagram. I would love to

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Speaker 3: hear from you. Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia

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Speaker 3: and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers are Me, Katie Kuric,

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Speaker 3: and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz, and

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Speaker 3: our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian Weller

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Speaker 3: composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,

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Speaker 3: or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call,

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Speaker 3: go to the description in the podcast app, or visit

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Speaker 3: us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me

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Speaker 3: on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more

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Speaker 3: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

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Speaker 3: wherever you listen to your favorite shows,