1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: Everyone knows the renowned Seven Wonders of the world, but 2 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: few have set eyes on them. For in order to 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,119 Speaker 1: do so, you have to arrange a long journey to 4 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: the land of the Persians on the far side of 5 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: the Euphrates. You have to visit Egypt. You must then 6 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:22,079 Speaker 1: change direction and go to Ilia in Greece. Then you 7 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: must see Halakarnassis, a city state in Karia, and Ephesus 8 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: in Ionia. And you have to sail to Rhads, so that, 9 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 1: being exhausted by lengthy wanderings over the Earth's surface and 10 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: growing tired from the effort of these journeys, you finally 11 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 1: fulfill your heart's desire only when life is ebbing away, 12 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:50,559 Speaker 1: leaving you weak through the weight of years. 13 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 14 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 15 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb. Those are the words of Felo of Byzantium, 16 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 1: promoting the idea of the Seven Wonders of the World. 17 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:14,960 Speaker 1: On today's episode, I'm going to be chatting with Professor 18 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:18,279 Speaker 1: Michael Dennis Higgins, author of the new book The Seven 19 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:23,400 Speaker 1: Wonders of the Ancient World, Science, Engineering, and Technology, out 20 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 1: now from Oxford University Press in both physical and digital formats. 21 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 1: It's an absolutely wonderful book and we've actually used it 22 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 1: already as a source on the show in our series 23 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: on mud, specifically in our section on mud bricks. So 24 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:40,680 Speaker 1: I'm delighted to have the author on the show. When 25 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 1: we set this up a couple of weeks ago, we 26 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 1: decided to just focus on a single wonder as opposed 27 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 1: to all seven of the Wonders of the world, so 28 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: we're going to be talking about the Colossus of Rhodes. 29 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: Let's get right to the interview. Hi, Michael, thanks for 30 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 1: coming on the show. 31 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 3: It's my pleasure to be alone. 32 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: The book is The Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, Science, Engineering, 33 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: and Technology. It's a terrific read. Tell us how did 34 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: this project come together? 35 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:13,079 Speaker 4: Well, the project was actually inspired many years ago by 36 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 4: my father. My father was a curator at the British Museum. 37 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 4: After he died, I started thinking about what he had done, 38 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 4: and he had written on a chapter on the Colossus 39 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 4: of Roads for a book on the Seven Wonders of 40 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 4: the Ancient World, and so I thought, well, why not 41 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 4: update it a bit because there'd been nothing really done 42 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 4: seriously on the Seven Wonders in almost forty years, So 43 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:38,640 Speaker 4: hence my book. 44 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: Now we're only going to be focusing on the one 45 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: particular wonder for today's conversation, the Colossus of Rhodes. But 46 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: I thought you might remind our listeners where and when 47 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: this whole concept of the seven Wonders of the ancient 48 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: world comes from. 49 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 4: Well, the idea broadly comes from the third century BCE. 50 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:00,160 Speaker 4: It's a sort of a kind of modern life, a 51 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 4: modern bucket list of things to see before you die. 52 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 4: And it may seem rather surprising that these kind of lists, 53 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 4: you know, existed at that time. Now, it's true that 54 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 4: there wasn't very much tourism in ancient Greece, and that 55 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 4: was partly because travel was by sea and there was 56 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 4: a lot of problems with pirates. But into Roman times 57 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 4: there was a well established a tourist industry in Greece 58 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 4: and Egypt and Roman and all the rest of it. 59 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 4: We actually have a tourist guide from the second century 60 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 4: BCE where he describes all the places he went to. 61 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 4: There were many lists, but the most popular and the 62 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 4: one that's come down. 63 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 3: To us now. 64 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 4: It starts, of course with the Pyramids you can't avoid them. 65 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 4: The Gardens of Babylon, the walls of Babylon as well, 66 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 4: although that was subsequently are replaced by the Phiahs, the 67 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 4: Statue of Zeus at Olympia, the tomb of King Marsolis, 68 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 4: the Temple of Artemiss and of course the Colossus of Roads. 69 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 4: And the question always is why were these things chosen? 70 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 4: And they were probably chosen for their size, their beauty, 71 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 4: and their engineering challenges. But also there's another aspect that 72 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 4: almost all of them have some kind of indirect or 73 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 4: direct link with Alexander the third of Macedon. He was 74 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 4: the great conqueror who was known as the Great by 75 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 4: those who were not unfortunate enough to have been conquered 76 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 4: by him. 77 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: Now narrowing in on the Island of Roads where the 78 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 1: Colossus of Rhodes is or wise position now, Unfortunately, the 79 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:43,279 Speaker 1: Island of Roads is currently in the news due to 80 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:47,279 Speaker 1: destructive wildfires, so a refresher might not be as essential 81 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: for listeners as as it normally would be. But could 82 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: you go ahead and position roads for us geographically? And 83 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 1: I guess geologically, well. 84 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 4: It's a Biggish Greek island in the south east GNC. 85 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 4: It's near the Turkish Turkish coast. In antiquity it was 86 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 4: known as a warm, sunny island, and in fact it 87 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 4: was sacred to the sun god Helios. And the story 88 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,839 Speaker 4: is that that Zeus had divided up the world between 89 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 4: his brothers, but Helios was away and when he came 90 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 4: back he found that that he hadn't been allocated anything. 91 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:26,279 Speaker 4: I guess they perhaps held the meeting during the night, 92 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 4: so he wasn't there. But serious offered to redivide up 93 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 4: the world. But Helius saw an island appearing in the 94 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,720 Speaker 4: south and asked for it, and that was Rhodes. And 95 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 4: so in a sense that people still worship the sun there. 96 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:46,479 Speaker 4: Of course, it's a major holiday destination. Unfortunately, it is hot, 97 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 4: it's sunny, it's dry for a huge amount of a 98 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:52,160 Speaker 4: very large amount of time every year, and so it's 99 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 4: very susceptible to fires, which we're seeing now with the 100 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 4: hot weather and that throughout Greece. And it's also suceptible 101 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 4: to earthquakes, which come into the story of the Colossos 102 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 4: quite a bit. 103 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:10,479 Speaker 1: Now. Yeah, turning to the colossus itself, I think many 104 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 1: of us have seen illustrations of it, but really, what 105 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:17,039 Speaker 1: was this colossus, So what do we think it looked like. 106 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 4: Okay, it was a huge statue, probably thirty three meters high, 107 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 4: because we have some descriptions which say how big it 108 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 4: was as one hundred feet and it was made of bronze. 109 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 4: Now we don't have any really detailed description. Most people 110 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 4: seem to say, well, everybody knows what it looks like, 111 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:38,479 Speaker 4: so there's no point in talking about it, and we don't. 112 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 3: Have any images of it. 113 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 4: Although the Rodians actually put on their coins the head 114 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 4: of Helios. Now Roman in ancient coins were obviously they 115 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 4: were used for money, but there was also essentially made souvenirs, 116 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 4: and so they often had on their coins things that 117 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 4: would encouraged tourism, and one of them was this image 118 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 4: of Helios with curly hair and sun rays coming out 119 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 4: of a kind of diadem. Now many people have suggested 120 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 4: that the image of the head and perhaps of parts 121 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 4: of the body was actually inspired by the statues of Alexander, 122 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 4: because the sculptor who created the colossos was a pupil 123 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 4: of the official sculptor of Alexander. And as for the 124 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 4: rest of the statue, well, the most people think that 125 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 4: he probably the god probably stood upright. He was holding 126 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 4: a spear in one hand. This was partly, of course, 127 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 4: to stabilize the statue, and he may have held a 128 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 4: torch above his head. So if you want to think 129 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 4: of what it looked like, well you know clearly the 130 00:07:56,400 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 4: Statue of Liberty was inspired by the idea of what 131 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 4: the statue looked like, and it was created to commemorate 132 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 4: a very important event in three hundred and five BCE. 133 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 4: Now this time, Rhodes was a quasi independent kingdom and 134 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 4: it was caught between two major powers which were ruled 135 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 4: by the successors of Alexander. So Alexander had died some 136 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 4: time before, and he just his empire had been divided up, 137 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 4: and two of the big chunks were Egypt to the 138 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:43,439 Speaker 4: south and Macedonia to the north, and Rhodes was kind 139 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 4: of caught in a proxy war between these two major states, 140 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 4: and Macedonia attacked roads with a fleet of ships. The 141 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 4: Egyptians came to the rescue and defeated the Macedonians, and 142 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 4: when the Macedonians left, they based sickly, just ran as 143 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 4: fast as they could, and they left behind most of 144 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:10,560 Speaker 4: their military equipment, including some huge siege towers and These 145 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:14,679 Speaker 4: were towers that were built of wood and iron and bronze. 146 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 3: Some of them. 147 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 4: Maybe up one hundred and fifty feet high fifty meters high, 148 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,079 Speaker 4: and that perhaps come back into the story a bit later. 149 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 4: So these towers had rams at the base of them. 150 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 4: They were covered in iron plates to prevent fire arrows 151 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 4: setting fire to the whole wooden structure. And the story 152 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 4: goes that when the Rhodians finally defeated the Macedonians, that 153 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 4: they sold off a lot of the siege towers. But 154 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:48,439 Speaker 4: I think actually they probably were wise enough to recycle 155 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 4: a lot of the material into the statue that makes sense, 156 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:55,079 Speaker 4: and perhaps sell off other materials they didn't need. 157 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 3: So that was it. 158 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: Now you discussed that of the three surviving descriptions of 159 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: the statue, the longest description, like the most detailed description, 160 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:09,319 Speaker 1: also seems to present a detailed but implausible construction method. 161 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 1: What are we to make of this? 162 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 3: Yes, it's a bit curious. 163 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:16,199 Speaker 4: The description you're talking about is by Philo of Byzantium, 164 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 4: who is a third century BCE engineer, and he was 165 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 4: the one who may have written the original description of 166 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 4: the Seven Wonders, although that's somewhat debatable. Now he talks 167 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:37,199 Speaker 4: about how the statue had a framework of iron and stone, 168 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:39,440 Speaker 4: which is okay so far it would have had to 169 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:42,319 Speaker 4: have been built on a framework. But then he goes 170 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,839 Speaker 4: on and talks in great detail about how the bronze 171 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:50,680 Speaker 4: was poured on layer after layer, a bit like casting concrete, 172 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:53,679 Speaker 4: you know, putting one layer on, waiting a fort to solidify, 173 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 4: and then putting another layer on. But it's a very 174 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 4: brutal way of making a statue and would have required 175 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:04,559 Speaker 4: a gigantic amount of metal, and it would have produced 176 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 4: an incredibly heavy statue that would have probably had problems 177 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 4: standing up. It's much more likely that the colossus was 178 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 4: actually made like smaller statues because they hadn't made one 179 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 4: this high one hundred feet high before, But they'd made 180 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 4: statues that were thirty forty feet high, so I mean 181 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 4: they knew how to make big statues. This one was 182 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 4: just even bigger. Now, the first stage in all of these, 183 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 4: making any of these statues was to build a full 184 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 4: sized model. So this would have had a frame of 185 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 4: wood or iron. We don't know whether it's the final 186 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 4: frame or not, or whether it was some kind of 187 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 4: temporary affair. So they would have built a frame of 188 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 4: wood and put struts and other bits on it, and 189 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 4: finally smaller and smaller pieces of wood until they could 190 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:56,080 Speaker 4: cover the whole thing with plaster and make an exact 191 00:11:56,440 --> 00:12:01,080 Speaker 4: model of what they wanted in the final structure. So 192 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 4: they must have needed cranes and a shelter to produce 193 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 4: this huge structure because it would have taken years to do. 194 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 4: And one possibility is that they used the old siege 195 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 4: tower or one of the old siege towers, or at 196 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 4: least its framework. Now we know these siege towers were 197 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 4: maybe thirty or forty feet wide and one hundred feet high. 198 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:27,320 Speaker 4: They were made of wooden frames like I mentioned, covered 199 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:33,599 Speaker 4: with metal. So what they could have done is dismantled 200 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 4: a siege tower, moved it and re erected it on 201 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 4: the base for the statue, and then they would have 202 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 4: used that frame for hauling things up, and also they 203 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 4: could put a roof on it so they would be 204 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 4: sheltered while they were doing the construction because they're building 205 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 4: the statue probably took about ten or twelve years, so 206 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:00,320 Speaker 4: it's kind of nice to think that they were recent Michael, 207 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 4: and perhaps the size of the original siege tower, which 208 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 4: would have been large enough to reach out over the 209 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,679 Speaker 4: walls so that they could attack the city. Perhaps this 210 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:17,679 Speaker 4: is what inspired the size of the actual statue itself. 211 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 4: So the next stage after they'd produced that that model 212 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 4: was casting the bronze first light. Say you know what 213 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 4: is bronze? As people are often get confused with all 214 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 4: these different alloys, it's it's an alloy of copper and 215 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 4: tin and usually lead. Now, the reason why they mixed 216 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 4: up these metals was that all alloys melt at lower 217 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 4: temperatures than pure metals, so it's less energy, it's easier 218 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 4: to pour and bronze this mixture of mostly copper like 219 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 4: ninety copper tin and two few percent lead. That also 220 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:59,559 Speaker 4: flows more readily than pure copper, so it was a 221 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 4: much better material. 222 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 3: It was harder. 223 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 4: Now copper was available from Cypress. Cypress, in fact, even 224 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 4: takes its name from the ancient Roman name for copper, 225 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 4: and there are huge deposits there which were exploited until 226 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 4: quite recently. Still they may still be exploited because Cypress 227 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 4: is actually a section of the seafloor that many many 228 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 4: years ago was thrust up above sea level or to 229 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 4: make new land. But I'm sure that many people have 230 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 4: seen pictures of black smokers. There's hot springs on the 231 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 4: ocean floor. The smoke that comes out is actually contains 232 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 4: copper sulfide, and so that's how those deposits on Cypress formed. 233 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 4: And so copper from Cyprus was no problem. It had 234 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 4: been exploited for thousands of years before then, and it 235 00:14:56,280 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 4: was exploited for many years afterwards. Now tin is a 236 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 4: much more of a mystery. We don't know when people 237 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 4: discovered that tin. Addition of tin to copper would make 238 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 4: it melted at a lower temperature and make a harder material, 239 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 4: but it was certainly something extremely important. But the problem 240 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 4: is where the tin came from, because there isn't a 241 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 4: single source like Cyprus. Heroditis, who was writing in the 242 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 4: fifth century BCE, talked about the Casiderites islands far off 243 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 4: in the Atlantic, and that may have been England, Southwest 244 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 4: England or Brittany. 245 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:36,359 Speaker 3: But it's also. 246 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 4: Possible that the tin actually came from the far East, 247 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 4: because we know that the gem material lap Is Lazuli 248 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 4: was actually imported from Afghanistan to Europe for a very 249 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 4: long period of time. It's present in ancient Egypt, so 250 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 4: we know there were long distance trade routes all the 251 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 4: way as far as the as far as Afghanistan, and 252 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 4: it's possible that the tin came from there, but there 253 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 4: may have been just many, many, many different sources. It 254 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 4: was obtained by washing river sediments a bit like gold 255 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 4: place of gold, and it may have been essentially a 256 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 4: byproduct of gold explotation in some places. Now, the third 257 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 4: component was lead that was added to further reduce the temperature, 258 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 4: but it was also to stretch the metal because it 259 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 4: was incredibly cheap, and the reason was that it was 260 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 4: a waste product from the silver mines near Athens, near 261 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 4: near Lavrion, which was the source of the of the 262 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 4: wealth that built the Parthenon and the other monuments of 263 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 4: classical grease. It was silver, so there was pars of 264 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 4: lead there. So they would import these these materials and 265 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 4: perhaps recycle a bit, and then they had to cast it. 266 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 4: So the way of it is most likely that they 267 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,360 Speaker 4: cast it was that they would have taken a section 268 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:10,879 Speaker 4: of the full size model, maybe up to two or 269 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 4: three meters wide two or three meters deep, and they 270 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:17,880 Speaker 4: would have covered it with wax. This would have been 271 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:21,879 Speaker 4: bees wax, maybe a quarter inch thick. Five milimeters. Then 272 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 4: they would have carefully removed the wax model covered it 273 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:30,719 Speaker 4: in clay and baked it to make a mold, so 274 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 4: the wax would have drained out. 275 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 3: It would have been recycled because it. 276 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:35,919 Speaker 4: Had a lot of value, and they would vend it 277 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:38,679 Speaker 4: up with a clay mold with a hole in it 278 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 4: very very narrow width, just like I said, a quarter 279 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:46,919 Speaker 4: of an inch. So then melt metal and pour it 280 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 4: into the mold, and then once it was cool, you 281 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 4: would break up the mold and clean up the casting 282 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 4: because of course it would probably have holes in it 283 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 4: and other little bits and pieces that need fixing. And 284 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:02,680 Speaker 4: then you'd fix their metal sheets onto the framework the 285 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:07,439 Speaker 4: framework of iron, and would probably mostly iron. And the 286 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 4: total amount of metal in the in the statue was 287 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 4: probably the order of like one hundred and thirty one 288 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:15,640 Speaker 4: hundred and fifty tons something like that. So it was 289 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 4: it was a significant amount, but it wasn't It wasn't gigantic. 290 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:22,719 Speaker 4: They probably would have produced that much copper in Cyprus 291 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:27,439 Speaker 4: every year, or or perhaps every six months, so it 292 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,159 Speaker 4: was it was not. It's not an impossibly large amount 293 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 4: of material. 294 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: How would it have looked from Afar? 295 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:32,919 Speaker 3: Would it. 296 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: Do you do we think it would have like gleamed 297 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 1: in the sun. Would it have been like really splendid 298 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: to behold? 299 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:39,400 Speaker 4: I think initially it would have gleamed in the sun, 300 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:40,399 Speaker 4: but of course it would have. 301 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 3: It would have had a. 302 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 4: Green pattern that developed quite fast. I don't think anybody 303 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 4: has ever suggested that it was covered in gold. You 304 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 4: could have put a thin coating of gold on it. 305 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 4: It was sometimes done, but it probably wouldn't last that long. 306 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 4: I mean, remember that it was put up beside the sea, 307 00:18:57,760 --> 00:18:59,199 Speaker 4: and so there was a certain amount of. 308 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:01,119 Speaker 3: Sea spray which would have corroded it. 309 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 4: So I think, you know, it would have looked green, 310 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 4: and it would have been seen from some distance out 311 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 4: to sea. So it was a kind of It was 312 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 4: a kind of beacon to welcome boats into the harbor, 313 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 4: as well as a symbol of yes, look we can 314 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 4: stand up to ourselves against the against the Macedonians, even 315 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 4: if it was our friends the Egyptians who helped us 316 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:34,160 Speaker 4: on this one. 317 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: Now, one of the big mysteries with the Colossus of Roads, 318 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:40,200 Speaker 1: as you discuss and this is there's similar mysteries with 319 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 1: with other of the ancient wonders concerns that the location. 320 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 1: So we don't know exactly where the Colossus of Roads 321 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 1: stood right right exactly. 322 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 3: We don't. 323 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 4: We don't have any fragments of it. We don't we 324 00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 4: haven't actually found where the metal was cast, which would 325 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 4: actually probably be something easier to find than the fragments 326 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 4: of the statue itself, because you know, an old factory 327 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 4: is something that nobody particularly wants, so you should be 328 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 4: left remains of it. 329 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:15,120 Speaker 3: And it's a bit of a. 330 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 4: Mystery as to why we've never actually found anything of 331 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,239 Speaker 4: where it was. But there's something that is clear is 332 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 4: that there's an image which is endlessly recycled of the 333 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 4: Clossos straddling the harbor as this giant statue with his 334 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 4: legs apart and ships sailing happily between his legs. Well, 335 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 4: there is absolutely no suggestion that that was correct. It's 336 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 4: completely the fantasy of a sixteenth century illustrator. But I 337 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:51,439 Speaker 4: think because of the power of the illustration, you know, 338 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:54,120 Speaker 4: it's it's a bad idea that you just can't get 339 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:58,479 Speaker 4: rid of. It would have been technically impossible to actually 340 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 4: build a statue with the legs apart like that, And 341 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:06,239 Speaker 4: also if the statue was thirty three meters high. It's 342 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,479 Speaker 4: one hundred feet high including the spear and torch. Then 343 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 4: the crotch would have only been at about thirty five 344 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 4: feet and it's supposed to straddle the military harbor, and 345 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,199 Speaker 4: none of the military boats of navy boats could have 346 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:21,160 Speaker 4: got in because it would have been too small. 347 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 3: So there is no way it stood like that. 348 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 4: It's much more likely that it stood on a low 349 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 4: mound near the edge of the harbor, that's to say, 350 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 4: between the current harbor, which still exists, and the city itself. 351 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,119 Speaker 3: In fact, the place where we think it stood. 352 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 4: Is actually covered by the Palace of the Crusader Knights, 353 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 4: which was erected essentially in medieval times, although what you 354 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:56,359 Speaker 4: see now is essentially a modern reconstruction because when Roads 355 00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 4: was part of the part of Italy briefly during Miscellini's time, 356 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:09,440 Speaker 4: it was reconstructed as a palace for Mussolini, so unfortunately 357 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 4: that's what happened now. So there are certain advantages being. 358 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 3: Near the harbor like this. 359 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 4: First of all, it was on a low hill, so 360 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:18,920 Speaker 4: it was visible from further out. 361 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 3: It was also useful. 362 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 4: For shipments of metal coming in because they had a 363 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 4: lot of weight of metal and being natural harbor, they 364 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 4: could store it there. They could have put workshops very 365 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 4: easily around the harbor itself, and perhaps the old seage 366 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 4: engine was nearby, so they had plenty of space for construction. 367 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 4: And also it was far from the corrosive effects of 368 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 4: sea spray, because sea spray obviously creates bronze very readily. 369 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,159 Speaker 1: Now you mentioned that. Of course, you mentioned that the 370 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:52,479 Speaker 1: stance of the statue, and how we think that it 371 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:56,159 Speaker 1: was likely legs together as opposed to the legs apart. 372 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: That is a fantasy of illustration. One thing I kept 373 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 1: wondering about the reading the chapter is that a lot 374 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 1: of us still have that vision stuck in our minds 375 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:06,919 Speaker 1: when we just think of the Colossus of Rhodes, this 376 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:12,719 Speaker 1: huge metal colossus, you know, straddling the bay right up there, 377 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: you know, next to the water, and we think of 378 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 1: that and we think, well, that just sounds audacious. Of 379 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,880 Speaker 1: course it fell down because we don't have I don't 380 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:26,239 Speaker 1: see statues like that in the world today. You know, 381 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 1: why would they be able to get away with it 382 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 1: back then? And I was just wondering, if do you 383 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: think that these sorts of images in this line of thinking, 384 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 1: does it make us sort of take for granted the 385 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 1: skill that they would have had in constructing it. Like 386 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: how you mentioned that this was basically a larger version 387 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: of statues that they were already building. So was it 388 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,399 Speaker 1: truly on an audacious project or was it maybe not 389 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 1: as audacious as we might think? 390 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 3: Oh? 391 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 4: I think it was definitely audacious. I mean it really 392 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 4: was considerably bigger, probably two or three times bigger than 393 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:01,679 Speaker 4: anything they'd constructed before. 394 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:02,679 Speaker 3: And remember that. 395 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 4: It was a very impressive construction, and it was much 396 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 4: imitated afterwards. There were other statues of this size that 397 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,879 Speaker 4: were built. One of them will come into the story 398 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 4: a little bit later, but it was the Colossus of 399 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 4: Nero that was built at Rome, and it was constructed 400 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 4: next to the Flavian Amphitheater, which most people, of course 401 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 4: know as the Colosseum. And the Colosseum was not named 402 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 4: because it was colossal. It was named for the colossal 403 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:32,920 Speaker 4: statue of Nero that stood nearby. 404 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:35,360 Speaker 3: But the problem always with. 405 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 4: Large constructions in an area like roads, which is particularly 406 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 4: susceptible to earthquakes, is that it collapsed. It collapsed, in fact, 407 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:51,879 Speaker 4: only sixty years after it was finished, in two twenty six, 408 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 4: so the problem was that there was an earthquake. There 409 00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 4: was not, perhaps by Rodian standards, are very big earth quake, 410 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 4: but the land went down by one meter. And the 411 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 4: problem was that the wealth of roads essentially was derived 412 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 4: from its trading activity, and the harbor went down one meter. 413 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 4: So all the keys are underwater, the military ship sheds 414 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 4: where they stored the boats. Because boats, the military boats 415 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 4: were always hauled out of the water except when they 416 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 4: were needed. They were all submerged. And this international trading 417 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 4: hub just simply collapsed to that point. And there were 418 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 4: many cities which needed that trade, including Egypt, and so 419 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:40,879 Speaker 4: there was a kind of international effort to try and 420 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,399 Speaker 4: help roads and re establish the trade. So it was 421 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 4: not entirely altruistic that they were doing it. For instance, Egypt, 422 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 4: we know they offered ninety tons of bronze work, workmen 423 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 4: and money to restore the harbor and the statue. Now 424 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 4: we don't know if it was accepted immediately or accepted 425 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 4: at all. What we do know is that the Rhodians 426 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:09,120 Speaker 4: consulted the oracle of Delphi, who said do not rebuild. Now, 427 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 4: I probably think that the Oracle of Delphi was a 428 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 4: bit like modern management consulting companies. People consult them to 429 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 4: consolidate the idea that they've already had in their mind, 430 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 4: but whether they did or did not accept the Obgyptian 431 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 4: offer is unclear. But the story that has followed on 432 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 4: from that was that the remains of the statue lay 433 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 4: on the ground for nine hundred years, nobody stole any 434 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:44,919 Speaker 4: of it until the Arabs invaded and sold off the 435 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 4: money to a Jewish trader who hauled it away on 436 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:53,159 Speaker 4: one hundred and thirty five camels. This story seems extremely unlikely. 437 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 4: I can't imagine anywhere in the ancient world where you 438 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,439 Speaker 4: could have that amount of metal, the amount of wealth 439 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 4: in a big pile around for nine hundred years without 440 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 4: anybody stealing it. But that's become again it's it's the 441 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 4: story that's off to repeat it. But there's another possibility. 442 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 4: There was a Roman historian called Eusebius writing in three 443 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 4: hundred and eleven CE, and he it's a kind of 444 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 4: chronicle year by year that he describes, and for about 445 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 4: four times he describes in this kind of year by 446 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 4: year listing that the Colossos was rebuilt. The problem is 447 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,120 Speaker 4: that we don't know whether he's talking about the Colossus 448 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 4: of Rhodes or the Colossus of Nero, because he was 449 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 4: actually based in Rome, so hence the problem. But of course, 450 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:50,640 Speaker 4: if you could have restored the Colossos of Nero, which 451 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 4: was almost exact copy of the Colossos of Rhodes, except 452 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 4: of course with near his head on the top, if 453 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:00,119 Speaker 4: you could restore that one, then you could restore the 454 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 4: Colossos of Roads too. So it seems quite likely that 455 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 4: many of the Roman emperors did in fact restore the Colossos, 456 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,159 Speaker 4: and in fact it may have been rebuilt two or 457 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 4: three times. Whether it was built in exactly the same 458 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 4: form rebuilt, we don't know, and we don't know how 459 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 4: much of the damage was. But I imagine that the corrosion, 460 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 4: probably of the statue with an iron core and a 461 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 4: bronze exterior, would have corroded quite readily, and so even 462 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:36,640 Speaker 4: relatively small earthquakes would have certainly damaged it partly brought 463 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 4: it down. So I like to think that that Ucbius 464 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 4: was probably right and that it was actually restored, because 465 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 4: it certainly was something that was incredibly important in people's consciousness, 466 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 4: and Roman empress did sometimes do these kind of altruistic 467 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 4: moves just to re establish their power too. So which 468 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 4: case when did it finally fall and was not restored, well, 469 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 4: probably one two CE, so this is like four hundred 470 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 4: years after it was built. There was a huge earthquake 471 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 4: in Roads. Now we know about this earthquake because the 472 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 4: land was uplifted by four point eight meters that's what 473 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 4: fourteen feet, and imagine that the size of an earthquake 474 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 4: needed to push the land up fourteen feet. And we 475 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 4: know how much the land went up and when that 476 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 4: happened from looking at sea level notches along the northeast 477 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 4: coast of Roads. Now, the Mediterranean, as most people know, 478 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 4: has very little tide, so when the waves hit on cliffs, 479 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 4: they create a notch, They rode away the cliff at 480 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 4: a level, and they create a platform. Because the century 481 00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 4: no tide, so the waves always attacking the same level. 482 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 4: So during an earthquake, the land will move up or down. 483 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 4: In this case, it moved up and we have the 484 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 4: old kind of notch. The old sea level is still 485 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 4: visible and those that visit Roads City, Northern Roads can 486 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 4: still see these things along all the beaches, this old 487 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 4: notch up on it and it gives you the whole 488 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 4: history of it, and it certainly was a gigantic earthquake. 489 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 4: The trade must have completely been eliminated. The harbor was 490 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 4: just kind of wiped out. It would have taken a 491 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 4: tremendous It did take a tremendous amount of effort to 492 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:38,280 Speaker 4: re establish trade. But if the colossus fell at that point, 493 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 4: it probably was not restored, simply because there were so 494 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 4: many other things to do. Were after such a huge earthquake, 495 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 4: the distraction of the city would have been almost total, 496 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 4: as well as all the buildings and the rest of it. 497 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 1: Now, in the last chapter of the book, you discuss 498 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 1: the idea of reconstructing modern replicas of the Seven Wonders, 499 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 1: which which I thought was a wonderful way to round 500 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 1: out the book, especially given you know, the book has 501 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: this has this great focus obviously on geology, often bringing 502 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,400 Speaker 1: up the aspects of of of the local geology and 503 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 1: the sourcing of materials for the different Wonders that I, 504 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 1: you know, I'd never really considered before, I guess i'd, 505 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:28,720 Speaker 1: you know, and often focused more on just sort of 506 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 1: the historical tidbits. I loved all of that, and I 507 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 1: love the focus on the engineering. So with the Colossus 508 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: of Rhodes in particular, how colossal of an undertaking, if 509 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 1: you will, would it be to rebuild it today, and 510 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 1: to do it right? 511 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 4: I don't think it would have actually been particularly difficult 512 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 4: to do. To rebuild now. I mean we we do 513 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 4: have the Statue of Liberty, which is a little smaller, 514 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 4: but not not that much smaller. The Statue of Liberty 515 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 4: is built again on our metal frame. It's made of copper, 516 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:05,719 Speaker 4: it's not bronze. But of course the Statue of Liberty 517 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 4: is not in an earthquake zone, whereas Roads we definitely 518 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 4: know it is. There is a plate tectonic boundary, probably 519 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 4: about ten kilometers south of Roads, where the floor of 520 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 4: the Mediterranean drops down from the kind of platform which 521 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 4: Roads is on right down into the deep ocean. So 522 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 4: it's a place where we regularly get big earthquakes, and 523 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 4: like I said, we can have ones with fourteen feet 524 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 4: of displacement, which is a huge earthquake. So you need 525 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 4: to build an earthquake resistant structure. There certainly are there's 526 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 4: a lot of expertise in building such structures, especially in 527 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 4: places like Chile where they regularly have very large earthquakes. 528 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 4: And I think the way to do it would be 529 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 4: to build a platform, a metal platform, and isolate it 530 00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 4: seismically from the underlying rock. 531 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 3: So you would have a slab of concrete, you'd have rubber. 532 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 4: Blocks, and then on top of that there would have 533 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 4: been a metal frame, and the metal frame. 534 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 3: Could be relatively rigid. 535 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 4: Then the statue would have a framework which would be 536 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 4: built onto that base. Again, it would have to have 537 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 4: a certain amount of flexibility so that the amount of 538 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 4: vibration that did get transmitted through there would not make 539 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 4: the plates of bronze come off the framework. They'd have 540 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:37,280 Speaker 4: to be carefully design in that way, but I don't 541 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 4: think it would be a particularly big challenge to do. 542 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 4: The big challenge would be that everybody would expect to 543 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 4: rebuild it as a statue straddling the harbor. And so 544 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 4: when I've seen pictures of reconstructions that they're going to do, 545 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 4: it's been announced several times that they're building a reconstruction. 546 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 4: It's you know, often portrayed as straddling the harbor. Now 547 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,800 Speaker 4: it is actually a harbor that's used now. So the 548 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,839 Speaker 4: choice is you then have to build a much bigger colossos, 549 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 4: which I think is what they what they're thinking of. 550 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 4: Doing one that would be not one hundred feet high 551 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 4: but three hundred feet high. Then of course it gets 552 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 4: to be a little bit more complicated. But you know, 553 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,359 Speaker 4: the question is do they want to rebuild it as 554 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 4: something that is somewhat resembles what it was in antiquity, 555 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,720 Speaker 4: or do you want it as a model symbol of roads, 556 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:34,839 Speaker 4: in which case it doesn't have to resemble anything that 557 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,879 Speaker 4: it did. Did it look like an antiquity But it's 558 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,279 Speaker 4: an interesting problem. It's more of a political problem than 559 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:42,719 Speaker 4: anything else. I mean, I rather hope that none of 560 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,000 Speaker 4: it is ever reconstructed, because I rather like visiting roads, 561 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:48,239 Speaker 4: and Roads is a rather nice place on its own 562 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 4: without a very large statue in it. 563 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:54,840 Speaker 1: The fact that it was there was ever it was 564 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,279 Speaker 1: ever built at all? You know what, what what does 565 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,840 Speaker 1: this reveal about? Like the nature in the scope of 566 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:04,279 Speaker 1: the original construction and about the place of roads in 567 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 1: the ancient world. 568 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:12,120 Speaker 4: I think it was it celebrated their worship of Helios, 569 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:17,319 Speaker 4: and Helios is as a Greek god is somewhat neglected. 570 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 4: I mean, nowhere else in Greece do you find statues 571 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,799 Speaker 4: or worship of Helios in any significant So it was 572 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 4: essentially their own kind of personal island god. I mean, 573 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 4: his place of Helios is usually taken by Apollo, who 574 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:38,479 Speaker 4: had a similar kind of responsibilities. Now Helios, we always 575 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,200 Speaker 4: talk about the sun god. Actually he is not quite that. 576 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 4: He was the guy in charge of transporting the sun, 577 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,360 Speaker 4: so he dragged it on a chariot across the sky 578 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,279 Speaker 4: and then kind of pushed it through hades and pulled 579 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,759 Speaker 4: it up on the other side. So it was more 580 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 4: of a kind of wagoneer than a than a god. 581 00:35:54,160 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 4: But you know, every city of community wants to have 582 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:05,359 Speaker 4: its kind of what was it starchitect building now, and 583 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 4: this was their starchitect building from the third century BC, 584 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 4: and perhaps nothing really has changed. People want to have 585 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 4: a symbol of their town, something they can put on 586 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:20,400 Speaker 4: their coins, something they can use to attract tourists. And 587 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,200 Speaker 4: that's what it was at those times, I say, and 588 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 4: not unusual when you look at the other wonders they 589 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:31,200 Speaker 4: were essentially perhaps partly there to attract tourists too, but 590 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:35,360 Speaker 4: also for worship as well. I mean, the Zeus statue 591 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:40,239 Speaker 4: of Zeus was certainly a very very important destination for 592 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 4: people to view the mausoleum. The was a similarly in 593 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:47,520 Speaker 4: that kind of way, and of course the pyramids still 594 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,600 Speaker 4: are the greatest symbol of Egypt. 595 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 1: Well, Michael, thanks again for coming on the show to 596 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,840 Speaker 1: discuss the book again. The title is The Seven Wonders 597 00:36:55,840 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 1: of the Ancient World, Science, Engineering and Technology. Courage listeners 598 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,839 Speaker 1: to check this book out because it has the history, 599 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:07,600 Speaker 1: it has the mythology, it has the engineering and the geology. 600 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,040 Speaker 3: It's just a treat Well, thank you very much. 601 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,440 Speaker 1: Thanks again to Professor Michael Dennis Higgins for chatting with 602 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,480 Speaker 1: us today. The book again is The Seven Wonders of 603 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:23,720 Speaker 1: the Ancient World, Science, Engineering and Technology from Oxford University Press. 604 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:27,960 Speaker 1: It's available now in hardback and as an ebook. I 605 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,480 Speaker 1: highly recommend it. I think you can love it. If 606 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:32,200 Speaker 1: you want to listen to other episodes of Stuff to 607 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:34,320 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind, well just find us in the Stuff 608 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,560 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind podcast feed wherever you get your podcasts. 609 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:41,239 Speaker 1: We have core episodes of the show on Tuesdays and Thursdays, 610 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 1: listener mails on Mondays, short form artifactural monster fact episodes 611 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,360 Speaker 1: on Wednesdays, and on Fridays. We set aside most serious 612 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 1: concerns to just talk about a weird film on Weird 613 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,799 Speaker 1: House Cinema. Thanks again to the excellent JJ Possway for 614 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,520 Speaker 1: producing the show, and if you would like to get 615 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:00,880 Speaker 1: in touch with us, well, you can email us at 616 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:11,799 Speaker 1: contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 617 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,759 Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 618 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 2: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 619 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:34,759 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.