WEBVTT - Tech Bros Try To Make Mining Sexy - Week in Tech

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<v Speaker 1>When I think about San Francisco residents, the first thing

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<v Speaker 1>that pops into my mind, I'm sorry to say, Reid,

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<v Speaker 1>isn't necessarily hot. But one entrepreneur has recently tried to

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<v Speaker 1>change that by circulating San Francisco's hot list. Have you

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<v Speaker 1>been following this?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I did see that.

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<v Speaker 1>Anyone you know made it onto the.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, all my friends. Yeah, we're all... I'm on it, obviously.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, yeah. No, sorry. I haven't even looked, to

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<v Speaker 2>be totally honest. I lived through Hot or Not. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>that old, so... I don't... And FaceSmash, you know, which

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<v Speaker 2>was Mark Zuckerberg's first startup. Yeah, I don't need to look.

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<v Speaker 1>The founder behind the company that compiled the list had

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<v Speaker 1>a very, you know, comprehensive description. It's hot to be funny.

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<v Speaker 1>It's hot to be smart. It's hot to be ambitious.

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<v Speaker 1>It's hot to be kind. And yes, it's hot to

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<v Speaker 1>be hot. Welcome to Tech Stuff. I'm Oz Veloshian, and

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<v Speaker 1>this is The Week in Tech, where I'm joined by

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<v Speaker 1>the world's most plugged-in reporters to break down what's really

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<v Speaker 1>happening in tech right now. Today, we're joined by our

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<v Speaker 1>regular panelist, Rita Brigotti, tech editor for Semaphore, and by

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<v Speaker 1>Tech Stuff first-timer, Margot McColl, a contributing writer at Vanity Fair.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you both for joining.

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<v Speaker 2>Great to see you all.

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<v Speaker 3>Thanks for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you two know each other?

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<v Speaker 2>We have never met. Are you in New York?

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<v Speaker 1>No, I'm in D.C., actually.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, you're in D.C.? Okay. Yeah. Okay. I'm in the

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<v Speaker 2>Bay Area, so, you know. But I do get to D.C. often.

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<v Speaker 2>We should get a coffee.

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<v Speaker 3>I've been resisting living in the Bay Area my whole career.

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<v Speaker 3>So you let me know when you're in D.C.

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<v Speaker 1>Reid, it's been a busy week, and I was hoping

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<v Speaker 1>you could catch us up on a few of the

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<v Speaker 1>big headlines and what's driving them. Let's start with Apple

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<v Speaker 1>and the annual fall event, the first one led by

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<v Speaker 1>new CEO John Ternus. How did it go down?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, pretty straightforward, right? It's a folding iPhone,

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<v Speaker 2>as we've sort of been expecting now for about a decade.

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<v Speaker 2>you know, since Samsung first came out with it. I

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<v Speaker 2>think it's, look, this is sort of the pattern now is,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, Apple sort of sees the market, they watch

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<v Speaker 2>what Samsung is doing, and then they eventually incorporate these features.

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<v Speaker 2>Now we've got a folding iPhone. I think it didn't

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<v Speaker 2>answer any of the big questions, though, for Apple, right?

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<v Speaker 2>Which is, how are they going to survive in the

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<v Speaker 2>AI era, right? And, you know, there's people who are

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<v Speaker 2>bullish on Apple, people who are bearish on Apple. I

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<v Speaker 2>think the big question for this new CEO, though, is,

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<v Speaker 2>How does Apple continue to defend its turf when you

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<v Speaker 2>have AI that's able to create software basically for free

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<v Speaker 2>on the fly that kind of makes these walled gardens

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<v Speaker 2>that all these companies have erected over the last couple

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<v Speaker 2>of decades to avoid any competition kind of go away?

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<v Speaker 2>And that's going to be Apple's big problem, I think.

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<v Speaker 1>It's going to be harder than making a folding phone.

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<v Speaker 2>A lot, a lot more difficult. A lot more complicated.

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<v Speaker 1>The last product magic I experienced from Apple was the AirPods.

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<v Speaker 1>They're genuinely cool. And I got some janky fake AirPods

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<v Speaker 1>from Amazon, and then I was like, I should buy

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<v Speaker 1>the real ones again. They are really so much better.

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<v Speaker 1>They are. And the live translation stuff, the noise cancelling,

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<v Speaker 1>that's a great product. I was not so excited seeing

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<v Speaker 1>that folding phone. Margot, what did you think?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I don't know if I really care about the

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<v Speaker 3>folding phone. I don't know the extent to which it's

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<v Speaker 3>supposed to replace the iPad. But I've talked to a

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<v Speaker 3>few Apple execs about John Ternus as a guy. He's

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<v Speaker 3>the hardware guy. That's his specialty, is making these really

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<v Speaker 3>competent products. That's what people told me. He's not necessarily

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<v Speaker 3>the visionary model, but he's someone that is very patient

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<v Speaker 3>and that can make the best possible version of that product.

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<v Speaker 3>Us joking here about how Apple's been making a folding

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<v Speaker 3>phone forever because Samsung already has one and other places

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<v Speaker 3>already have one. That's kind of what he's good at

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<v Speaker 3>is like being really patient and making the best version

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<v Speaker 3>of something.

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<v Speaker 2>Apple makes great hardware and they're going to have a

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<v Speaker 2>great hardware business for a long time. The problem is

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<v Speaker 2>hardware is not actually that great of a business. And

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<v Speaker 2>the thing that Apple's secret sauce on the financial side

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<v Speaker 2>has been its ability to charge these huge upcharge is

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<v Speaker 2>to have these great margins on their hardware that's the

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<v Speaker 2>that's the business and the reason they're able to do

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<v Speaker 2>that is because of the software because you people buy

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<v Speaker 2>into the apple ecosystem.

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<v Speaker 1>I know this is your i know this is your

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<v Speaker 1>your case read but i'm not 100 sure i agree

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<v Speaker 1>with you because it's just like i used to be

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<v Speaker 1>an android guy and then finally in like 2014 i

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<v Speaker 1>got an iphone i was like sure the software is

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<v Speaker 1>better but just it's such a more pleasant experience interact

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<v Speaker 1>with the hardware i think and that's the same with

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<v Speaker 1>the with the headphones right it's like these are just

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<v Speaker 1>like a much more pleasurable hardware interaction than whatever the

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<v Speaker 1>Me Too product is. So I agree with you. Obviously,

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<v Speaker 1>the software in the walled garden and stuff is really

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<v Speaker 1>important to the business model. But do you not think

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<v Speaker 1>there's something defensive about high margin, great, sexy hardware?

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think you do. I don't think you do

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<v Speaker 2>disagree with me. I think we're both saying the same

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<v Speaker 2>exact thing, which is like, I love the hardware too.

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<v Speaker 1>I love the AirPods.

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<v Speaker 2>Even before the AirPods, their headphones, the wired ones, were

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<v Speaker 2>the best headphones you could get. And I would try

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<v Speaker 2>all the cheap ones, and they would always break. And

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<v Speaker 2>they make really good hardware. I'm just saying, as a business,

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<v Speaker 2>it's going to be hard for them to make a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of money on that. Because a lot of people

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<v Speaker 2>are not just buying because of the hardware they're buying,

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<v Speaker 2>because they don't want to be the blue bubble, because

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<v Speaker 2>they have iPhoto devices. albums that they share with their family. And,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, these things keep people locked in. That's what

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<v Speaker 2>allows that. It's the lock-in. It's the customer lock-in.

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<v Speaker 1>Dyson makes great, everyone loves the Airblade, but Dyson's not

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<v Speaker 1>a trillion dollar company.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, somebody could come along and they could make better hardware,

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<v Speaker 2>a better phone. In fact, there are better phones. Probably

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<v Speaker 2>Huawei has the best phones on the market. People don't

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<v Speaker 2>switch to the phones because they're locked in. And that's

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<v Speaker 2>what I'm saying. We both agree. But what made Apple

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<v Speaker 2>go from a hardware company worth $ 300 billion to a

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<v Speaker 2>company worth $ 3 trillion is not the hardware. It's the lock-in.

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<v Speaker 2>It's the ecosystem that they built around the hardware.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I'm curious what you think, because I don't know

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<v Speaker 3>if Apple is going to really lead in AI ever.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't really think that's what they're trying to do.

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<v Speaker 3>I always think about the App Store tax. Is it

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<v Speaker 3>not kind of enough for them to take a slice

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<v Speaker 3>out of every time you're using these AI apps, plus

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<v Speaker 3>all the businesses that are going to be spawned based

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<v Speaker 3>on these AI apps? They make so much money from that.

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<v Speaker 3>Will that not be enough coupled with the great hardware?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they make money on the cut they take of

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<v Speaker 2>purchases that happen in the App Store, right? But what

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<v Speaker 2>if I'm using my ChatGPT app and it's doing all

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<v Speaker 2>these purchases for me outside of the App Store? Does

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<v Speaker 2>Apple still make that money? I mean.

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<v Speaker 1>Probably not.

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<v Speaker 2>Or it's doing my messaging for me, you know?

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<v Speaker 1>Martha, I'm curious... In your conversations with Apple execs, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>did you get into, was there any succession drama or

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<v Speaker 1>did Tim Cook earn the right to basically choose exactly

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<v Speaker 1>who he wanted with no resistance?

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<v Speaker 3>Reid, I'm curious if you've heard different. To me, it

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<v Speaker 3>felt like everyone I talked to was like, John's always

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<v Speaker 3>been kind of teed up. I mean, they've been having

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<v Speaker 3>him do various presentations. They've definitely been like parading him

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<v Speaker 3>out as like a public figure for a while. I

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<v Speaker 3>also talked to people that talked about how you know,

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<v Speaker 3>when Johnny Ive left, like it was like the product

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<v Speaker 3>team and the design team were like the cool kids

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<v Speaker 3>in Apple. And then when Johnny Ive left, the design

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<v Speaker 3>team faltered. And then John Ternus's team became the most important.

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<v Speaker 3>So I think people inside Apple weren't too shocked.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I agree. I just I also think like Apple

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<v Speaker 2>has a real talent problem at the at the high end.

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<v Speaker 2>Like it's not it's just they have to recruit from

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<v Speaker 2>within because they built this.

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<v Speaker 1>But that's what people would have said when Tim Cook,

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<v Speaker 1>what an uninspiring choice, what, you know, disaster. No one

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<v Speaker 1>can follow Steve Jobs. And he took the company to

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<v Speaker 1>the stratosphere.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, Tim, I think everybody can, no one can

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<v Speaker 2>argue with Tim Cook's success, right? Amazingly successful CEO, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>really built their China operation, really defended their turf really well.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm just saying like that is a tough, it's a

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<v Speaker 2>tough act to follow, but also just it's going to

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<v Speaker 2>be really hard for them to I'm not even talking

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<v Speaker 2>about making visionary products. It's not a question of making

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<v Speaker 2>visionary products. It's just like it's going to be a

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<v Speaker 2>completely different universe now. This isn't Apple changing. This is

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<v Speaker 2>like the outside world changing now. And Apple has to

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<v Speaker 2>adapt to it, if that makes sense.

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<v Speaker 1>More viral than the new flip phone was Jacob Coxon's X-Post.

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<v Speaker 1>What does she say?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, AI is going to kill us all. Or there's

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<v Speaker 2>a 10% chance.

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<v Speaker 3>I love the one in 10.

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<v Speaker 2>Which is a very... 10% is a very good possibility

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<v Speaker 2>that we're all going to die. I actually tweeted about this.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm like, well, if you're working for a company that

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<v Speaker 2>you think is 10% chance is going to kill all humanity,

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<v Speaker 2>you should resign. That is... I don't necessarily... I haven't seen...

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<v Speaker 2>Anything that tells me that there's a 10% chance that

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<v Speaker 2>large language models are going to kill all of humanity.

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<v Speaker 1>Just to clarify, this was Jacob Coxon, who was, I think,

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<v Speaker 1>an anthropic employee in his 20s, right? Who quit based

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<v Speaker 1>on the existential risk to humanity and went viral.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes.

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<v Speaker 2>He's worked at OpenAI, went to Anthropic because Anthropic was

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<v Speaker 2>the good guys. And then he realized that they're also

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<v Speaker 2>irresponsible and hurtling toward the end of humanity. And if

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<v Speaker 2>you actually think that large language models are on a

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<v Speaker 2>path to take over humanity and kill us all, you

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<v Speaker 2>should not work on that.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, you should be the CEO.

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<v Speaker 3>He should get promoted.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>The counter argument to what I'm saying is, well, but

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<v Speaker 2>I'm a good guy. I'm going to go work at

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<v Speaker 2>this company and I'm going to find a way to

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<v Speaker 2>build this technology safely. There is no There is no

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<v Speaker 2>big breakthrough. There have been no advances in understanding the

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<v Speaker 2>neural networks that underpin these large language models. We don't

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<v Speaker 2>know what the so-called neurons are doing, these vast databases

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<v Speaker 2>of matrix multiplication. We can't figure out why the math

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<v Speaker 2>leads to the outcomes of these models. This is the

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<v Speaker 2>field of interpretability. Tiny little breakthroughs, but we're not anywhere

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<v Speaker 2>near near understanding them. So this idea that you could

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<v Speaker 2>somehow steer it and make it safe, if you if

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<v Speaker 2>you think it's going down this path or destroying humanity

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<v Speaker 2>is ludicrous, you should just resign. Like no one should

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<v Speaker 2>work on a technology they think is going to kill humanity,

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<v Speaker 2>or even if there's a 1% chance or a point 001% chance, like,

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<v Speaker 2>don't build it. I mean, I agree. I agree with

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<v Speaker 2>his position morally, I don't agree with it. I haven't

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<v Speaker 2>seen the evidence. personally, that he's right, that this is

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<v Speaker 2>so dangerous. But I don't know. What do you think, Margo?

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, they all talk about it like it's the

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<v Speaker 3>Manhattan Project, right? I always think about when Sam Altman

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<v Speaker 3>brought the employees to go see Oppenheimer, as if Oppenheimer

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<v Speaker 3>is like, this was good. Oppenheimer was really happy with

0:11:56.660 --> 0:11:58.260
<v Speaker 3>his decision to develop the nuclear bomb.

0:11:59.070 --> 0:11:59.250
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:11:59.429 --> 0:12:02.010
<v Speaker 3>But I always think of there was a Vanity Fair

0:12:02.050 --> 0:12:06.650
<v Speaker 3>piece about Anthropic where the reporter basically like was getting

0:12:06.700 --> 0:12:09.359
<v Speaker 3>a tour of the Anthropic offices and the employees were like,

0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:12.439
<v Speaker 3>we don't wear sunscreen because AI is going to cure cancer.

0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:16.360
<v Speaker 3>And he left his phone. I know he left his

0:12:16.420 --> 0:12:19.439
<v Speaker 3>phone recording, you know, by accident, air quotes, went to

0:12:19.460 --> 0:12:21.940
<v Speaker 3>the bathroom, came back, listened to it. And the employees

0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:23.470
<v Speaker 3>were like, oh, do you think he bought it? Like

0:12:24.150 --> 0:12:26.569
<v Speaker 3>there is an element of like these guys. I think

0:12:26.630 --> 0:12:29.470
<v Speaker 3>like to picture themselves living in like a sci-fi novel

0:12:29.610 --> 0:12:32.620
<v Speaker 3>and yeah, there's like a LARPing element of it that

0:12:32.650 --> 0:12:33.740
<v Speaker 3>I find so funny.

0:12:34.550 --> 0:12:34.770
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:12:35.390 --> 0:12:37.000
<v Speaker 1>Reed, what about you? I mean, does, does it like,

0:12:37.179 --> 0:12:39.720
<v Speaker 1>do people in your like group chats and your life

0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:41.920
<v Speaker 1>on the West coast, like do people take this seriously

0:12:41.940 --> 0:12:44.910
<v Speaker 1>or is it just like a tidal wave of kind of,

0:12:45.320 --> 0:12:46.320
<v Speaker 1>you know, same, same.

0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:49.700
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, I, I, I talked to these people,

0:12:50.179 --> 0:12:54.500
<v Speaker 2>the effective altruists who think that we're all going to die. I, yeah.

0:12:54.540 --> 0:12:57.300
<v Speaker 2>I mean, when I, when I, you know, when I'm thinking,

0:12:57.360 --> 0:12:59.179
<v Speaker 2>when I'm writing about this, I talk to them. I

0:12:59.220 --> 0:13:02.620
<v Speaker 2>am asked the, we're all going to die people, what

0:13:02.660 --> 0:13:04.980
<v Speaker 2>they think. And I, and I bounce my views off

0:13:05.020 --> 0:13:08.420
<v Speaker 2>of them. And I, I actually take what these people

0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:11.210
<v Speaker 2>say at face value. And then I, and then I

0:13:11.260 --> 0:13:14.650
<v Speaker 2>think about it, right? Like I, I, there's no reason

0:13:14.670 --> 0:13:17.730
<v Speaker 2>to like dismiss this as like doomerism or something, right?

0:13:17.770 --> 0:13:19.709
<v Speaker 2>Like we should, we should take these arguments and we

0:13:19.730 --> 0:13:22.689
<v Speaker 2>should dissect them and try to figure out what's, you know,

0:13:22.890 --> 0:13:25.650
<v Speaker 2>where the truth is, where the risk is. I just don't,

0:13:25.730 --> 0:13:27.390
<v Speaker 2>I think a lot of this stuff is just so,

0:13:28.070 --> 0:13:31.870
<v Speaker 2>it's still so theoretical. Um, like the arguments that, that,

0:13:32.610 --> 0:13:35.589
<v Speaker 2>that people like Coxon are making is that, well, if

0:13:35.650 --> 0:13:38.170
<v Speaker 2>you look at the trajectory of this technology, it's getting

0:13:38.210 --> 0:13:40.530
<v Speaker 2>a lot more powerful. And so if you just, you

0:13:40.550 --> 0:13:43.950
<v Speaker 2>just extrapolate out, like, you know, two or three, 10

0:13:43.950 --> 0:13:46.550
<v Speaker 2>years from now, it will just be so powerful that

0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:49.100
<v Speaker 2>we'll take over humanity. But if you kind of like,

0:13:49.780 --> 0:13:53.400
<v Speaker 2>if you kind of like apply that same argument to say, like,

0:13:53.780 --> 0:13:57.820
<v Speaker 2>you know, deep blue beating Gary Kasparov in chess, right?

0:13:58.040 --> 0:14:01.459
<v Speaker 2>You know, that happened, you know, 40 something years ago,

0:14:01.980 --> 0:14:04.760
<v Speaker 2>like AI should have killed killed us all decades ago.

0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:09.170
<v Speaker 2>And so I think sometimes, like, you can have a

0:14:09.210 --> 0:14:14.850
<v Speaker 2>very mathematical, kind of scientific mind almost, and then and

0:14:14.890 --> 0:14:17.650
<v Speaker 2>then sort of come to, I think, the wrong conclusion,

0:14:17.710 --> 0:14:21.000
<v Speaker 2>which is like, this is imminent. I think they talk

0:14:21.030 --> 0:14:23.670
<v Speaker 2>about the Manhattan Project, like they're building a you know,

0:14:23.810 --> 0:14:26.370
<v Speaker 2>a nuclear bomb right now. They're not building a nuclear

0:14:26.410 --> 0:14:29.690
<v Speaker 2>bomb right now, in my view, they're, they're physicists in

0:14:29.710 --> 0:14:32.580
<v Speaker 2>the 1920s, you know, in the 19 teens, and they're

0:14:32.600 --> 0:14:37.900
<v Speaker 2>making physics breakthroughs on our understanding of the way the

0:14:37.960 --> 0:14:41.680
<v Speaker 2>physical world works. And one day that could lead to

0:14:41.820 --> 0:14:45.010
<v Speaker 2>someone creating a nuclear bomb. But we're just not there yet.

0:14:45.070 --> 0:14:47.990
<v Speaker 2>Like this is this is a much earlier phase in

0:14:48.030 --> 0:14:49.850
<v Speaker 2>the in the trajectory of this technology.

0:14:50.540 --> 0:14:52.800
<v Speaker 3>I understand what you're saying about the AI itself not

0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:56.660
<v Speaker 3>being a nuclear bomb, but I do think there's follow-on effects.

0:14:57.350 --> 0:15:01.370
<v Speaker 3>I remember I met with this young founder who was

0:15:01.550 --> 0:15:05.390
<v Speaker 3>backed by Peter Thiel, and he was buying up anthrax

0:15:05.790 --> 0:15:09.590
<v Speaker 3>and all of these neurotoxins that are shockingly easy to get.

0:15:09.610 --> 0:15:12.050
<v Speaker 3>And I think you've already had... I'm just saying this

0:15:12.070 --> 0:15:16.370
<v Speaker 3>because the guy that quit cited bioweapons as his big thing, right?

0:15:16.390 --> 0:15:18.980
<v Speaker 3>And I don't think you need to reach AGI for...

0:15:20.310 --> 0:15:23.050
<v Speaker 3>AI to help you build a bioweapon. You know what

0:15:23.070 --> 0:15:26.170
<v Speaker 3>I mean? I think that that's probably, if not already

0:15:27.450 --> 0:15:29.270
<v Speaker 3>capable of it, I think that's pretty close.

0:15:30.290 --> 0:15:36.280
<v Speaker 2>Well, that's totally true. But then is having the AGI

0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:39.640
<v Speaker 2>is going to kill all humanity in five years, is

0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:43.160
<v Speaker 2>that sucking oxygen out of the room and away from

0:15:43.260 --> 0:15:46.250
<v Speaker 2>the actual problems that we do need to deal with? Like,

0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:49.520
<v Speaker 2>I mean, bioterrorism is one. I think a much more

0:15:49.620 --> 0:15:54.900
<v Speaker 2>pressing issue that could kill far more many people is

0:15:55.340 --> 0:15:58.520
<v Speaker 2>the security issue, right? The cybersecurity issue. I think people

0:15:59.110 --> 0:16:01.490
<v Speaker 2>are not paying enough attention to the fact that we

0:16:01.550 --> 0:16:06.030
<v Speaker 2>have critical infrastructure that's running on Windows XP and needs

0:16:06.090 --> 0:16:08.250
<v Speaker 2>to be updated and needs to be patched and has

0:16:08.850 --> 0:16:10.990
<v Speaker 2>That has been true for decades, for a decade.

0:16:11.010 --> 0:16:14.510
<v Speaker 1>I mean, look at what Stuxnet was able to basically destroy,

0:16:14.850 --> 0:16:17.830
<v Speaker 1>nuclear power plants from the inside or nuclear reactors from

0:16:17.850 --> 0:16:21.420
<v Speaker 1>the inside in Iran. If you're right about the trend,

0:16:21.460 --> 0:16:24.560
<v Speaker 1>and it seems like from all the stories recently, towards

0:16:24.620 --> 0:16:26.460
<v Speaker 1>it being much easier to do cyber attacks and then

0:16:26.500 --> 0:16:31.560
<v Speaker 1>turning this against infrastructure. I mean, that's impressive.

0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:35.290
<v Speaker 2>I think we need to have a huge national effort,

0:16:35.350 --> 0:16:39.330
<v Speaker 2>probably international effort, to harden the to completely change the

0:16:39.370 --> 0:16:42.870
<v Speaker 2>way the internet works to deal with this threat. We

0:16:42.930 --> 0:16:46.510
<v Speaker 2>probably should have been doing that anyway. A lot of

0:16:46.530 --> 0:16:50.020
<v Speaker 2>the problems that we're facing because of AI, let's not

0:16:50.060 --> 0:16:53.520
<v Speaker 2>even call it AI, let's just call it software automation.

0:16:54.320 --> 0:16:57.160
<v Speaker 2>These problems are things that we should have already fixed

0:16:57.480 --> 0:17:02.140
<v Speaker 2>and now the timeline is accelerating. Things like income inequality, right?

0:17:02.520 --> 0:17:06.030
<v Speaker 2>Like The fact that AI is not going to take

0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:08.330
<v Speaker 2>away all of our jobs, it's probably going to create

0:17:08.369 --> 0:17:11.890
<v Speaker 2>more jobs. That's not the issue. The issue is even today,

0:17:12.390 --> 0:17:15.399
<v Speaker 2>people work full-time jobs like here in the Bay Area

0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:18.870
<v Speaker 2>and don't have enough to get by. So people have jobs.

0:17:18.990 --> 0:17:21.510
<v Speaker 2>Unemployment's really low and people can't get by.

0:17:21.650 --> 0:17:23.810
<v Speaker 3>Sam Allman says we're going to have universal basic income.

0:17:24.130 --> 0:17:25.649
<v Speaker 3>So don't you worry.

0:17:25.950 --> 0:17:30.830
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. What's the path to universal basic income? Like a

0:17:30.890 --> 0:17:32.540
<v Speaker 2>revolution in between now and then?

0:17:32.600 --> 0:17:36.220
<v Speaker 1>Well, maybe solving the great breakthroughs of science, as you

0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:37.200
<v Speaker 1>alluded to, Reid.

0:17:37.460 --> 0:17:41.200
<v Speaker 2>We have a fantastic opportunity here to solve a lot

0:17:41.240 --> 0:17:44.139
<v Speaker 2>of problems, like to make great breakthroughs in science. The

0:17:44.180 --> 0:17:47.520
<v Speaker 2>problem is, If we don't fix these like structural issues

0:17:47.580 --> 0:17:50.959
<v Speaker 2>in society, then we don't get to have those, you know,

0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:53.540
<v Speaker 2>we don't get to have the nice things. That's the issue,

0:17:53.619 --> 0:17:53.870
<v Speaker 2>I think.

0:17:54.090 --> 0:17:56.250
<v Speaker 3>Dare I say we should nationalize AI?

0:17:57.910 --> 0:18:00.909
<v Speaker 2>We probably, I think that ship has sailed. It would

0:18:00.930 --> 0:18:03.970
<v Speaker 2>have been better. We voted on this as a country

0:18:04.430 --> 0:18:08.190
<v Speaker 2>to basically say, oh, this whole like government is the

0:18:08.330 --> 0:18:11.090
<v Speaker 2>center of like technology innovation and it's sort of part

0:18:11.109 --> 0:18:13.390
<v Speaker 2>of this military industrial complex. We don't like that. Let's

0:18:13.430 --> 0:18:16.960
<v Speaker 2>have the private sector do it all for us. And I,

0:18:17.130 --> 0:18:19.830
<v Speaker 2>I don't, I think, I think, you know, I don't know.

0:18:19.850 --> 0:18:21.989
<v Speaker 2>I think there's any going back, like at least not

0:18:22.010 --> 0:18:24.280
<v Speaker 2>anytime soon, but yeah, it would have been better.

0:18:24.300 --> 0:18:27.180
<v Speaker 1>Maybe it would have been better or, or maybe it

0:18:27.200 --> 0:18:27.760
<v Speaker 1>wouldn't have happened.

0:18:27.820 --> 0:18:27.980
<v Speaker 3>Right.

0:18:28.020 --> 0:18:30.460
<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's, it's always, you know, counterfactuals.

0:18:30.500 --> 0:18:32.240
<v Speaker 3>I mean, Sam Altman wouldn't have woken up one day

0:18:32.280 --> 0:18:36.110
<v Speaker 3>and hit publish on chat GBT and now kids use

0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:37.750
<v Speaker 3>it for everyday homework. You know what I mean? Like,

0:18:37.770 --> 0:18:39.050
<v Speaker 3>I think that it would have been a much slower

0:18:39.090 --> 0:18:41.350
<v Speaker 3>rollout and wouldn't that have been nice?

0:18:41.990 --> 0:18:44.310
<v Speaker 1>I do want to ask you both about science and tech, though,

0:18:44.330 --> 0:18:47.050
<v Speaker 1>because there was a big story this week that OpenAI

0:18:47.190 --> 0:18:50.500
<v Speaker 1>claimed to have solved one of the millennium math problems

0:18:50.560 --> 0:18:55.800
<v Speaker 1>in just 88 hours. But then there was some controversy that, A,

0:18:56.000 --> 0:18:58.859
<v Speaker 1>there may have been some kind of private OpenAI chats

0:18:58.900 --> 0:19:01.300
<v Speaker 1>that were read along the way. And B, one of

0:19:01.380 --> 0:19:04.210
<v Speaker 1>the researchers behind this breakthrough works for Anthropic and OpenAI

0:19:04.250 --> 0:19:06.230
<v Speaker 1>are trying not to credit him as a result. Is

0:19:06.250 --> 0:19:07.710
<v Speaker 1>that a fair summary of what happened?

0:19:07.910 --> 0:19:10.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think it's a fair summary. open AI was

0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:14.380
<v Speaker 2>got super competitive. I feel like Margo, like this is like,

0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:17.280
<v Speaker 2>to me, it's like, this is where like academia meets

0:19:17.380 --> 0:19:20.200
<v Speaker 2>like the world of journalism. It's like, Oh, I hear some,

0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:23.220
<v Speaker 2>some other publications trying to get a scoop. Like I'm

0:19:23.240 --> 0:19:25.010
<v Speaker 2>going to try to get it first. You know, I

0:19:25.570 --> 0:19:28.330
<v Speaker 2>like this happened to me in the wall street journal yesterday, actually,

0:19:28.590 --> 0:19:31.730
<v Speaker 2>you know, this little scoop mini scoop. I don't know.

0:19:31.770 --> 0:19:34.030
<v Speaker 2>You tell me if you disagree. I think the real

0:19:34.070 --> 0:19:37.320
<v Speaker 2>question is like, well, okay, but what does this mean?

0:19:37.420 --> 0:19:40.040
<v Speaker 2>The fact that AI can now solve these big problems

0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:42.870
<v Speaker 2>in math, what effect is that going to have on

0:19:42.869 --> 0:19:46.370
<v Speaker 2>science on, you know, in the real world and applications?

0:19:47.710 --> 0:19:50.130
<v Speaker 1>I have, I have absolutely no idea. I had, I had,

0:19:50.230 --> 0:19:53.320
<v Speaker 1>I had Karina Hong who, who founded Axiom Math. I'm

0:19:53.340 --> 0:19:55.379
<v Speaker 1>not sure if you've come across her, but she's one

0:19:55.410 --> 0:19:58.080
<v Speaker 1>of the, like, you know, under, under 30 or maybe

0:19:58.119 --> 0:20:01.200
<v Speaker 1>even under 25, like a unicorn founders. And she was

0:20:01.220 --> 0:20:04.600
<v Speaker 1>basically saying that like the, the reward of like verifiable,

0:20:04.619 --> 0:20:06.960
<v Speaker 1>like solving the greatest problems of mathematics in terms of

0:20:06.980 --> 0:20:12.300
<v Speaker 1>like verifiable proof. can unlock a new wave of computing,

0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:18.340
<v Speaker 1>which has totally uncontemplated economic and scientific and other benefits.

0:20:18.580 --> 0:20:20.080
<v Speaker 1>I found it, if I'm being very honest, a little

0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:20.680
<v Speaker 1>hard to follow.

0:20:21.220 --> 0:20:25.380
<v Speaker 2>I asked ChatGPT, and it told me that this was

0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:27.929
<v Speaker 2>huge because it's going to have all these implications in

0:20:29.109 --> 0:20:32.670
<v Speaker 2>quantum computing and nuclear fusion and all these. It's going

0:20:32.690 --> 0:20:36.430
<v Speaker 2>to help advance all these areas. And I still cannot

0:20:36.490 --> 0:20:40.140
<v Speaker 2>tell you why that is the case. But I think

0:20:41.040 --> 0:20:42.320
<v Speaker 2>that's what's exciting about it.

0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:43.060
<v Speaker 3>Who cares?

0:20:43.660 --> 0:20:47.070
<v Speaker 2>This happens all the time in academia, arguing about credit.

0:20:47.850 --> 0:20:51.629
<v Speaker 2>It's like, okay, but how's the world going to change, right?

0:20:51.670 --> 0:20:52.770
<v Speaker 2>That's what we should focus on.

0:20:53.310 --> 0:20:56.750
<v Speaker 1>Well, OpenAI get the million dollars from the Clay Foundation

0:20:56.790 --> 0:20:58.410
<v Speaker 1>who support the millennium math problem.

0:20:58.470 --> 0:21:00.630
<v Speaker 3>I love that OpenAI is getting a little reward for it.

0:21:01.330 --> 0:21:01.870
<v Speaker 3>They need more money.

0:21:01.910 --> 0:21:02.869
<v Speaker 2>They better donate that.

0:21:04.980 --> 0:21:08.360
<v Speaker 1>Last of the kind of headline roundup, and Margot, you know,

0:21:09.020 --> 0:21:11.460
<v Speaker 1>as a Vanity Fair contributing writer, I'm curious for your

0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:15.690
<v Speaker 1>take on Silicon Valley taking over the silver screen. There

0:21:15.810 --> 0:21:20.350
<v Speaker 1>is a Sam Altman movie, which premiered recently at a festival,

0:21:20.430 --> 0:21:23.760
<v Speaker 1>being likened to the social network. There's an Elon doc

0:21:23.820 --> 0:21:27.139
<v Speaker 1>by Alex Gibney that he hates. There's a Nathan Field

0:21:27.180 --> 0:21:31.679
<v Speaker 1>documentary about Elizabeth Holmes coming. Tell me about all these projects.

0:21:32.230 --> 0:21:34.810
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, well, the Nathan Fielder, it's what I'm most excited for,

0:21:34.910 --> 0:21:39.110
<v Speaker 3>which is that he interviewed Elizabeth Holmes, the Toronto's founder

0:21:39.150 --> 0:21:41.800
<v Speaker 3>that lied about all these blood tests. And it's like

0:21:41.920 --> 0:21:44.460
<v Speaker 3>three hours. He's kept it secret forever. And he basically

0:21:44.540 --> 0:21:47.920
<v Speaker 3>followed her around for like her last free 30 days

0:21:48.040 --> 0:21:51.520
<v Speaker 3>before she went to prison for I don't know how long, actually.

0:21:51.540 --> 0:21:51.609
<v Speaker 2>But.

0:21:53.940 --> 0:21:56.600
<v Speaker 3>He's so interesting. If you've seen the rehearsal, if you've

0:21:56.640 --> 0:21:59.540
<v Speaker 3>seen his other shows, like he gets really weird. Like

0:21:59.580 --> 0:22:02.560
<v Speaker 3>it's going to be so weird. And I don't know.

0:22:02.580 --> 0:22:04.679
<v Speaker 3>I've been like racking my brain trying to figure out

0:22:04.720 --> 0:22:07.560
<v Speaker 3>why she agreed to do this. It's like, it's like

0:22:07.580 --> 0:22:09.899
<v Speaker 3>not really going to like tell her story really in

0:22:10.020 --> 0:22:11.460
<v Speaker 3>any coherent way. I don't think.

0:22:12.140 --> 0:22:14.320
<v Speaker 1>It's like, do you remember when Ali G, Sasha Baron

0:22:14.400 --> 0:22:17.179
<v Speaker 1>Cohen first came along and did like Trump and Rudy Giuliani.

0:22:17.220 --> 0:22:19.780
<v Speaker 1>And then obviously he did Borat and, And part of

0:22:19.820 --> 0:22:21.820
<v Speaker 1>the joke was that the people weren't in on it.

0:22:21.840 --> 0:22:24.240
<v Speaker 1>But it's kind of an interesting meta thing where she

0:22:24.280 --> 0:22:26.990
<v Speaker 1>knows exactly who Nathan Fielder is, but she still doesn't.

0:22:27.050 --> 0:22:29.710
<v Speaker 1>It's kind of... She just could have.

0:22:29.670 --> 0:22:32.990
<v Speaker 3>Given this access to anyone. And I like the idea

0:22:33.010 --> 0:22:35.690
<v Speaker 3>because I'm obsessed with Nathan Fielder. I think women love

0:22:35.730 --> 0:22:38.869
<v Speaker 3>Nathan Fielder. And maybe she just wanted to hang out

0:22:38.890 --> 0:22:40.530
<v Speaker 3>with him, which I relate to.

0:22:43.050 --> 0:22:45.950
<v Speaker 1>Reid, have you been following the Elon Alex Gibney drama?

0:22:46.020 --> 0:22:48.060
<v Speaker 1>And how's Sam Altman feeling about his biopic?

0:22:48.590 --> 0:22:52.930
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I, the, the Gibney, uh, not, not as much,

0:22:52.990 --> 0:22:55.490
<v Speaker 2>but the Altman thing for sure. I watched the, I

0:22:55.530 --> 0:22:59.389
<v Speaker 2>watched the preview. Um, yeah, I did, I did actually

0:22:59.470 --> 0:23:01.990
<v Speaker 2>participate in the Gibney documentary once. I'm a big fan

0:23:02.010 --> 0:23:04.760
<v Speaker 2>of his, so I'll be interested in, uh, in seeing that. But,

0:23:05.600 --> 0:23:07.760
<v Speaker 2>but I think, I don't know, the Altman one, I

0:23:07.820 --> 0:23:09.899
<v Speaker 2>wrote a piece about this and I just think it's,

0:23:09.920 --> 0:23:12.959
<v Speaker 2>it looks from the preview, like a huge missed opportunity

0:23:13.160 --> 0:23:15.260
<v Speaker 2>to me. Like I'd be interested in Margo's view on this,

0:23:15.300 --> 0:23:18.140
<v Speaker 2>but like, It just looks like this sort of caricature

0:23:18.160 --> 0:23:20.540
<v Speaker 2>of him to try to make him look like a supervillain.

0:23:20.600 --> 0:23:23.520
<v Speaker 2>And he's walking through his, like, I don't think, I

0:23:23.680 --> 0:23:27.940
<v Speaker 2>actually asked someone at OpenAI if Sam Altman's bunker actually

0:23:28.000 --> 0:23:31.680
<v Speaker 2>looks like that. Because, like, he's got mood lighting around his, like,

0:23:31.900 --> 0:23:33.980
<v Speaker 2>automatic weapons and stuff. And, like, come on.

0:23:34.000 --> 0:23:35.280
<v Speaker 3>It, like, looks kind of like a club.

0:23:35.580 --> 0:23:39.560
<v Speaker 2>I've been to some of these bunkers before. And, like, well,

0:23:39.619 --> 0:23:41.359
<v Speaker 2>I've been, okay, I've been to one bunker.

0:23:41.580 --> 0:23:43.080
<v Speaker 1>Okay, tell me about, I've been to a bunker, too.

0:23:43.119 --> 0:23:43.940
<v Speaker 1>Tell me about your bunker.

0:23:43.960 --> 0:23:48.570
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I was like, look, I read about your bunker.

0:23:48.690 --> 0:23:51.310
<v Speaker 2>Can you please take me to show your bunker? And

0:23:51.430 --> 0:23:52.730
<v Speaker 2>I want to see it. And I went down and

0:23:52.760 --> 0:23:56.080
<v Speaker 2>I was like, this looks like a den in Minnesota.

0:23:56.220 --> 0:23:57.220
<v Speaker 2>I don't see any guns.

0:23:57.280 --> 0:23:58.540
<v Speaker 1>There's no canned food.

0:23:59.720 --> 0:24:02.379
<v Speaker 2>I bet you Altman's bunker is super boring looking. I

0:24:02.420 --> 0:24:04.780
<v Speaker 2>could be wrong. I've done no reporting on this other

0:24:04.800 --> 0:24:09.890
<v Speaker 2>than asking one person at opening eye. But that aside,

0:24:09.990 --> 0:24:12.810
<v Speaker 2>I'm like... the social network was great. It was great.

0:24:12.830 --> 0:24:17.930
<v Speaker 2>This drama between Zuckerberg and, you know, and Winklevii and

0:24:18.450 --> 0:24:22.090
<v Speaker 2>Eduardo and all this stuff. But like, this is like

0:24:22.270 --> 0:24:25.650
<v Speaker 2>Altman versus Musk. Like that is the founder story, right?

0:24:25.750 --> 0:24:28.250
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, true. Having it be about him, them pushing him out, like,

0:24:28.270 --> 0:24:29.210
<v Speaker 3>I don't know. Yeah.

0:24:29.330 --> 0:24:32.320
<v Speaker 2>And it's like, it's like the whole preview was like,

0:24:32.440 --> 0:24:35.520
<v Speaker 2>we're going to launch this thing called ChatGPT and it's

0:24:35.540 --> 0:24:38.639
<v Speaker 2>going to bring down entire industries and governments and all

0:24:38.680 --> 0:24:41.340
<v Speaker 2>this stuff. And it's like, no, that was like an accident.

0:24:41.380 --> 0:24:43.820
<v Speaker 2>They're like, maybe we should release our chat bot and

0:24:43.880 --> 0:24:44.800
<v Speaker 2>just see what happens.

0:24:45.060 --> 0:24:48.400
<v Speaker 3>It definitely overestimates how much of a mastermind these guys are.

0:24:49.060 --> 0:24:53.140
<v Speaker 2>Always. Totally. It's like, it's like reality is actually more

0:24:53.180 --> 0:24:56.129
<v Speaker 2>interesting than like, let's see if we can turn this

0:24:56.190 --> 0:24:58.810
<v Speaker 2>guy into a bond villain or something in my view,

0:24:58.970 --> 0:25:01.609
<v Speaker 2>but that's just a preview. So I could be, I

0:25:01.630 --> 0:25:02.070
<v Speaker 2>could be wrong.

0:25:02.450 --> 0:25:06.460
<v Speaker 1>I was in Toronto in, um, albania about two years

0:25:06.520 --> 0:25:10.700
<v Speaker 1>ago and uh the dictator uh communist dictator envir hoxha

0:25:11.280 --> 0:25:15.020
<v Speaker 1>has built the largest underground bunker in the world it

0:25:15.040 --> 0:25:17.460
<v Speaker 1>had a hall of deputies and then like it was

0:25:17.480 --> 0:25:19.660
<v Speaker 1>a kind of nested thing where he assumed that more

0:25:19.680 --> 0:25:21.619
<v Speaker 1>and more people would die as like food ran out

0:25:21.640 --> 0:25:24.199
<v Speaker 1>and then you just got to like his bedroom and

0:25:24.220 --> 0:25:27.659
<v Speaker 1>uh And of course, I think it was completed one

0:25:27.680 --> 0:25:30.540
<v Speaker 1>day before he died, as these things often are. And

0:25:30.600 --> 0:25:34.280
<v Speaker 1>I'm just thinking, it's funny that the fantasies of bunkers

0:25:34.320 --> 0:25:39.180
<v Speaker 1>are shared by the dying communist dictators of the Cold

0:25:39.220 --> 0:25:41.450
<v Speaker 1>War and today's Silicon Valley overlords.

0:25:41.970 --> 0:25:45.109
<v Speaker 3>That's beautiful. Isn't Zuckerberg building a four-story one, I think,

0:25:45.130 --> 0:25:45.310
<v Speaker 3>in Hawaii?

0:25:45.330 --> 0:25:50.930
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I just think it's funny that these people think

0:25:50.990 --> 0:25:53.869
<v Speaker 2>that somehow they're the ones who are going to end

0:25:53.950 --> 0:25:58.280
<v Speaker 2>up in the last fancy bedroom in the bunker. No,

0:25:58.320 --> 0:26:01.000
<v Speaker 2>some security guard who's really good with weapons is just

0:26:01.040 --> 0:26:02.899
<v Speaker 2>going to take your bunker from you as soon as

0:26:02.940 --> 0:26:04.920
<v Speaker 2>society ends. I'm sorry, do you.

0:26:04.820 --> 0:26:07.369
<v Speaker 3>Remember the Paul Graham quote about Sam Altman where he

0:26:07.400 --> 0:26:09.930
<v Speaker 3>was like, if he went to an island of cannibals,

0:26:10.210 --> 0:26:11.650
<v Speaker 3>he would emerge as king of the cannibals?

0:26:11.670 --> 0:26:14.570
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, that's not true. He's going to rock that bunker. No, no, no.

0:26:14.650 --> 0:26:17.359
<v Speaker 2>They're missing the point. The point is like, the, the

0:26:17.420 --> 0:26:22.040
<v Speaker 2>world that we built benefits people with like mathematical skills

0:26:22.060 --> 0:26:24.800
<v Speaker 2>and like intellect. Right. And like, they're talking about a

0:26:24.840 --> 0:26:29.160
<v Speaker 2>world where we go back to like, just benefits whoever's stronger. Like,

0:26:29.260 --> 0:26:32.400
<v Speaker 2>you're not sorry. Like, yeah, I know Zuckerberg's ripped, but like,

0:26:32.619 --> 0:26:34.980
<v Speaker 2>you know, he's, he's not going to be the strongest guy.

0:26:35.119 --> 0:26:38.479
<v Speaker 2>So it's, it's over for like, as soon as society crumbles,

0:26:38.560 --> 0:26:41.420
<v Speaker 2>like none of these tech bros are going to last

0:26:41.460 --> 0:26:43.160
<v Speaker 2>for like a week. It's like, it's over.

0:26:43.480 --> 0:26:46.420
<v Speaker 1>This is the perfect pivot. I can just read my

0:26:46.560 --> 0:26:49.200
<v Speaker 1>ad break through. I don't need to edit it live.

0:26:49.550 --> 0:26:52.330
<v Speaker 1>When we come back, why tech bros are abandoning the

0:26:52.390 --> 0:27:12.780
<v Speaker 1>screen for a more rugged future. Stay with us. Welcome back. Margot,

0:27:12.800 --> 0:27:14.980
<v Speaker 1>you wrote a piece of Vanity Fair this summer titled

0:27:15.340 --> 0:27:21.350
<v Speaker 1>Silicon Valley's Empire State of Minds. What's it about? Who

0:27:21.590 --> 0:27:24.990
<v Speaker 1>is Turner Caldwell? And how did you end up in

0:27:25.010 --> 0:27:26.430
<v Speaker 1>the National Gallery of Art with him?

0:27:26.970 --> 0:27:30.250
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Turner Caldwell, he was 33 when I wrote it.

0:27:30.950 --> 0:27:34.209
<v Speaker 3>Stanford grad, you know, kind of really typical Silicon Valley

0:27:34.350 --> 0:27:38.139
<v Speaker 3>resume guy. And he's founded Mariana Minerals, which has a

0:27:38.180 --> 0:27:41.080
<v Speaker 3>ton of money that's raised another giant round from Andreessen Horowitz.

0:27:41.300 --> 0:27:44.879
<v Speaker 3>And they are buying up mines and retrofitting them with,

0:27:44.980 --> 0:27:49.220
<v Speaker 3>you know, AI equipment, AI-ifying it. And he's part of

0:27:49.280 --> 0:27:52.180
<v Speaker 3>a broader push from Silicon Valley who has realized that

0:27:52.320 --> 0:27:54.580
<v Speaker 3>actually building all these data centers is going to take,

0:27:55.100 --> 0:28:00.020
<v Speaker 3>you know, rocks and materials that we have let China

0:28:00.200 --> 0:28:03.860
<v Speaker 3>become the monopoly on developing these minerals that we need.

0:28:04.540 --> 0:28:07.179
<v Speaker 3>And so they are sending these young men, often in

0:28:07.200 --> 0:28:11.780
<v Speaker 3>their 20s and 30s, and they're going to Utah and

0:28:11.800 --> 0:28:14.980
<v Speaker 3>they're going to Kentucky and they're going to Africa and

0:28:15.060 --> 0:28:16.899
<v Speaker 3>they're returning to the mines.

0:28:17.560 --> 0:28:21.740
<v Speaker 1>I mean, they're buying defunct mothballed mines or they're starting

0:28:21.780 --> 0:28:25.480
<v Speaker 1>new mines or they're buying operating mines, but putting in

0:28:25.540 --> 0:28:29.399
<v Speaker 1>a better AI control room. What's the thesis here?

0:28:30.570 --> 0:28:32.209
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so there's a bunch of companies that are doing

0:28:32.230 --> 0:28:35.330
<v Speaker 3>different things. Turner in particular right now is buying up

0:28:35.530 --> 0:28:40.200
<v Speaker 3>old mines in the US and restarting them. I think

0:28:40.240 --> 0:28:43.760
<v Speaker 3>at some point he'll want to create new mines, but

0:28:43.800 --> 0:28:46.500
<v Speaker 3>it's a lot easier from obviously like a regulatory perspective

0:28:46.580 --> 0:28:50.050
<v Speaker 3>to like restart old mines. But, you know, there's one

0:28:50.090 --> 0:28:52.650
<v Speaker 3>called Whetstone that's buying up ocean rights. They can do

0:28:52.730 --> 0:28:56.090
<v Speaker 3>deep sea mining. There's one called Cobalt Metals who's run

0:28:56.130 --> 0:28:57.410
<v Speaker 3>by this really, you know, like.

0:28:58.900 --> 0:29:01.490
<v Speaker 3>Rugged cowboy guy that likes to paint himself that way.

0:29:01.550 --> 0:29:05.430
<v Speaker 3>And they're using AI to find new minerals in the Congo.

0:29:06.310 --> 0:29:08.250
<v Speaker 3>The end goal for a lot of these companies is

0:29:08.290 --> 0:29:12.080
<v Speaker 3>to vertically integrate their mines, to buy, to own the mine,

0:29:12.190 --> 0:29:15.440
<v Speaker 3>to find the materials, and to do it all themselves.

0:29:16.180 --> 0:29:19.020
<v Speaker 2>Mining is a great job, by the way. I know

0:29:19.040 --> 0:29:23.270
<v Speaker 2>there's the whole coal mine stuff, but it's actually a

0:29:23.290 --> 0:29:25.610
<v Speaker 2>great job. I remember the Wall Street Journal article wrote

0:29:25.640 --> 0:29:30.010
<v Speaker 2>this story years ago about how in Australia, these mining

0:29:30.070 --> 0:29:33.220
<v Speaker 2>companies were paying people well into the six figures to

0:29:33.220 --> 0:29:36.240
<v Speaker 2>go work in these mines in the middle of Australia.

0:29:36.240 --> 0:29:40.440
<v Speaker 2>And they had like so many applications from people.

0:29:40.160 --> 0:29:42.140
<v Speaker 1>Well i think mine is a great job in in

0:29:42.180 --> 0:29:47.060
<v Speaker 1>a well-regulated you know australia slash united states environment obviously

0:29:47.080 --> 0:29:49.920
<v Speaker 1>i've got dear friend of mine nicholas niokas wrote a

0:29:49.940 --> 0:29:52.670
<v Speaker 1>book called the elements of power which is largely centered

0:29:52.710 --> 0:29:54.969
<v Speaker 1>in the in the congolese mining industry where i think

0:29:54.990 --> 0:29:57.739
<v Speaker 1>it's it's definitely not a fun job but But I mean,

0:29:57.760 --> 0:29:59.770
<v Speaker 1>to your point, Reid, one of the interesting details in

0:29:59.810 --> 0:30:04.350
<v Speaker 1>your story, Margot, is that the US produces about 200

0:30:04.350 --> 0:30:10.010
<v Speaker 1>mining engineers every year, whereas China graduates, China produces several thousand.

0:30:10.490 --> 0:30:13.230
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. When I started reporting this piece, I didn't know

0:30:13.250 --> 0:30:14.690
<v Speaker 3>whether I was going to take, you know, a tech

0:30:14.750 --> 0:30:17.070
<v Speaker 3>angle to it of like, okay, well, can AI really

0:30:17.110 --> 0:30:20.000
<v Speaker 3>make mining that much more efficient? And what I think

0:30:20.220 --> 0:30:22.200
<v Speaker 3>surprised me the most is that the biggest problem mining

0:30:22.280 --> 0:30:26.200
<v Speaker 3>really has right now is it's a labor problem. China...

0:30:26.680 --> 0:30:30.440
<v Speaker 3>has a huge population and also an authoritarian government. So

0:30:30.500 --> 0:30:32.820
<v Speaker 3>they have been buying up mines in Africa and they just,

0:30:33.220 --> 0:30:35.540
<v Speaker 3>they just send their people. They have so many people.

0:30:35.560 --> 0:30:38.180
<v Speaker 3>We can just send them to the mines. Um, the

0:30:38.200 --> 0:30:40.780
<v Speaker 3>U S does not have a, a labor pool that,

0:30:40.860 --> 0:30:42.320
<v Speaker 3>that wants to go to the mines.

0:30:42.740 --> 0:30:44.800
<v Speaker 2>Well, they want to go to mines in Australia. Tell

0:30:44.820 --> 0:30:45.260
<v Speaker 2>you that much.

0:30:46.140 --> 0:30:47.640
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. I will say when I talked to cobalt metals,

0:30:47.660 --> 0:30:49.640
<v Speaker 3>they're like, people want to go to Zambia. They've won

0:30:49.660 --> 0:30:52.090
<v Speaker 3>in Sweden. They're like, we send people to Sweden.

0:30:52.390 --> 0:30:54.530
<v Speaker 2>I bet if they were paying the right salary, like

0:30:54.550 --> 0:30:55.110
<v Speaker 2>people would go.

0:30:55.670 --> 0:30:58.489
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I mean, they're portraying it as this like, what

0:30:58.510 --> 0:31:01.150
<v Speaker 3>I find funny is that most of the labor at

0:31:01.190 --> 0:31:03.810
<v Speaker 3>these mines is like they need old mining talent, people

0:31:03.830 --> 0:31:06.130
<v Speaker 3>that know how to run a mine. And then like

0:31:06.130 --> 0:31:07.969
<v Speaker 3>20 to 30% is like they need to convince like

0:31:08.010 --> 0:31:12.310
<v Speaker 3>Stanford grads that like their future is in Utah, which

0:31:12.350 --> 0:31:15.800
<v Speaker 3>I think is like so interesting. And the way they

0:31:15.820 --> 0:31:17.080
<v Speaker 3>do it is they're like, you know, AI is going

0:31:17.100 --> 0:31:19.500
<v Speaker 3>to replace a lot of these companies that you're at.

0:31:19.580 --> 0:31:21.480
<v Speaker 3>You think that software company you're going to go to,

0:31:21.680 --> 0:31:23.260
<v Speaker 3>you know, right out of school at Stanford is going

0:31:23.280 --> 0:31:24.660
<v Speaker 3>to exist in five, 10 years?

0:31:24.680 --> 0:31:25.100
<v Speaker 2>Like, no.

0:31:25.960 --> 0:31:28.120
<v Speaker 3>But the mines, the mines will be there.

0:31:29.020 --> 0:31:32.880
<v Speaker 1>Is this primarily a story about copper in data centers

0:31:32.940 --> 0:31:36.200
<v Speaker 1>and cobalt in lithium ion batteries? When we talk about mining,

0:31:36.220 --> 0:31:37.720
<v Speaker 1>are we talking about copper and cobalt mining?

0:31:38.400 --> 0:31:44.910
<v Speaker 3>For Turner, yes. There's a plethora of other critical minerals that, honestly,

0:31:44.990 --> 0:31:48.010
<v Speaker 3>I would need a degree in geology to really tell

0:31:48.030 --> 0:31:51.250
<v Speaker 3>you in depth about. But copper is a huge one.

0:31:51.570 --> 0:31:54.810
<v Speaker 3>It is really necessary for the wiring in data centers.

0:31:56.040 --> 0:31:57.880
<v Speaker 3>And then also, as we build these data centers, we

0:31:57.900 --> 0:32:00.240
<v Speaker 3>have to build new energy sources. And, you know, if

0:32:00.260 --> 0:32:02.480
<v Speaker 3>we're going to build new nuclear plants, that takes a

0:32:02.500 --> 0:32:05.560
<v Speaker 3>lot of specialized materials that right now we have to

0:32:05.600 --> 0:32:06.380
<v Speaker 3>buy from China.

0:32:07.000 --> 0:32:11.000
<v Speaker 2>I was talking with an executive at a big company

0:32:11.040 --> 0:32:15.240
<v Speaker 2>involved in data centers and about bottlenecks. And he's like,

0:32:16.060 --> 0:32:19.020
<v Speaker 2>everything's a bottleneck. Like the whole world is a bottleneck.

0:32:19.040 --> 0:32:21.380
<v Speaker 2>Like we can't get we can't get anything. It's like

0:32:22.200 --> 0:32:26.450
<v Speaker 2>from the minerals to glass for optics, like everything is

0:32:26.550 --> 0:32:30.570
<v Speaker 2>we're short of everything. And so my big question is, like, well,

0:32:30.590 --> 0:32:32.630
<v Speaker 2>this is like, at what point is that are we

0:32:32.670 --> 0:32:35.690
<v Speaker 2>going to start seeing like, just jobs everywhere, right? Like,

0:32:35.790 --> 0:32:39.870
<v Speaker 2>like a massive boom, and like a big economic boom

0:32:39.910 --> 0:32:43.970
<v Speaker 2>for everyone, right? Because if everything is a bottleneck, that's

0:32:44.040 --> 0:32:46.560
<v Speaker 2>got to create tons of jobs, right? Like, at some point,

0:32:46.580 --> 0:32:48.260
<v Speaker 2>we're going to see that. And I think this mining

0:32:48.300 --> 0:32:50.580
<v Speaker 2>thing is like, is maybe one example, or just the

0:32:50.600 --> 0:32:51.340
<v Speaker 2>tip of the iceberg.

0:32:52.000 --> 0:32:54.700
<v Speaker 3>Reid, you know what you just summarized? The American dynamism

0:32:54.720 --> 0:32:56.620
<v Speaker 3>thesis for Andreessen Horowitz.

0:32:56.640 --> 0:32:57.550
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it is kind of.

0:32:57.600 --> 0:32:59.360
<v Speaker 3>It's a great advertisement.

0:32:59.800 --> 0:33:04.709
<v Speaker 2>But it's happening. It's happening now. Why are we not seeing...

0:33:04.310 --> 0:33:06.550
<v Speaker 2>I guess there's just a delay, right?

0:33:06.570 --> 0:33:09.390
<v Speaker 3>Well, so you see... And I cover tech more from

0:33:09.430 --> 0:33:11.650
<v Speaker 3>a cultural perspective. And what I love is you see

0:33:11.690 --> 0:33:13.700
<v Speaker 3>a lot of these companies that are getting investment from

0:33:13.740 --> 0:33:16.570
<v Speaker 3>Andreessen Horowitz, which... By the way, they became famous for

0:33:16.610 --> 0:33:18.790
<v Speaker 3>software eats the world. And now they realize we need

0:33:18.810 --> 0:33:21.800
<v Speaker 3>to go back to the physical world. But these companies,

0:33:22.120 --> 0:33:24.760
<v Speaker 3>they do deals with states. They say we're going to bring,

0:33:24.800 --> 0:33:27.140
<v Speaker 3>you know, 2000 jobs. And then they throw these like big,

0:33:27.240 --> 0:33:31.260
<v Speaker 3>sexy parties in like random places in the South. Like Adrian,

0:33:31.440 --> 0:33:36.140
<v Speaker 3>which is like an AI defense manufacturer, like they manufacture

0:33:36.160 --> 0:33:40.460
<v Speaker 3>parts using automation. And they opened a big factory that

0:33:40.520 --> 0:33:43.340
<v Speaker 3>had gone out of business in Alabama. And they had

0:33:43.380 --> 0:33:46.219
<v Speaker 3>Lynyrd Skynyrd there. And through reporting the story, I got

0:33:46.260 --> 0:33:52.160
<v Speaker 3>invited to, you know, Uranium Enrichment Party in Tennessee. The

0:33:52.240 --> 0:33:56.020
<v Speaker 3>mine opening in Utah. And they try to make them

0:33:56.060 --> 0:33:57.120
<v Speaker 3>these like sexy things.

0:33:57.480 --> 0:33:57.920
<v Speaker 2>I love that.

0:33:58.720 --> 0:34:00.540
<v Speaker 1>I'm curious. I want to ask you more about that

0:34:00.580 --> 0:34:04.480
<v Speaker 1>part of it. Before that, I mean, on the financing side, like,

0:34:05.870 --> 0:34:07.620
<v Speaker 1>And Reid, I want you to reflect on this because

0:34:07.890 --> 0:34:11.239
<v Speaker 1>it seems like we're in such a crazy moment where,

0:34:11.260 --> 0:34:14.760
<v Speaker 1>to your point, venture capital and recent software is the world.

0:34:15.400 --> 0:34:19.640
<v Speaker 1>How can venture investors who typically had a 10-year horizon

0:34:20.000 --> 0:34:24.540
<v Speaker 1>and wanted one or two 100x returns to return the portfolio,

0:34:25.120 --> 0:34:28.960
<v Speaker 1>how could venture capital possibly be the right financing model

0:34:29.080 --> 0:34:30.180
<v Speaker 1>for mining?

0:34:30.660 --> 0:34:33.930
<v Speaker 3>I totally agree. And that is something that I ask people.

0:34:33.950 --> 0:34:35.790
<v Speaker 3>So I was like, how is venture capital? Like the

0:34:35.810 --> 0:34:38.589
<v Speaker 3>amount of money they need, the amount of money that's

0:34:38.630 --> 0:34:41.989
<v Speaker 3>even wasted just trying to find new mining locations is

0:34:42.950 --> 0:34:46.170
<v Speaker 3>really immense. No one told me this. Like, this is

0:34:46.190 --> 0:34:48.089
<v Speaker 3>kind of my theory, which is that like, you know,

0:34:48.390 --> 0:34:52.170
<v Speaker 3>if Andreessen Horowitz invests 50 million in a company and

0:34:52.190 --> 0:34:54.650
<v Speaker 3>the company operates a mine and whatever, even if that

0:34:54.690 --> 0:34:57.350
<v Speaker 3>company fails, part of me is like, maybe they just need...

0:34:57.660 --> 0:35:00.279
<v Speaker 3>to have first access to those minerals for the next

0:35:00.340 --> 0:35:03.020
<v Speaker 3>five years. And maybe that's worth it for them.

0:35:03.440 --> 0:35:07.819
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but bringing these mines, bringing mothballed mines back online, like,

0:35:07.840 --> 0:35:09.739
<v Speaker 1>I mean, look at what's going on in Venezuela. It's like,

0:35:09.920 --> 0:35:11.759
<v Speaker 1>it's all very well to say, oh, we've got the

0:35:11.800 --> 0:35:15.759
<v Speaker 1>largest proven reserves in the world of crude oil, and

0:35:15.780 --> 0:35:17.549
<v Speaker 1>we're going to be hundreds of billions of dollars. But

0:35:18.330 --> 0:35:22.370
<v Speaker 1>the patience required to actually extract resources from the physical world,

0:35:22.770 --> 0:35:25.739
<v Speaker 1>the geopolitical issues, the legal issues, I mean, just To me,

0:35:25.760 --> 0:35:27.739
<v Speaker 1>it speaks of an industry of people who have got

0:35:27.760 --> 0:35:29.540
<v Speaker 1>a little bit high on their own supply in terms

0:35:29.600 --> 0:35:32.830
<v Speaker 1>of their ability to actually deliver value from these investments

0:35:32.850 --> 0:35:35.110
<v Speaker 1>to themselves and their LPs. I mean, it just doesn't seem,

0:35:35.469 --> 0:35:37.350
<v Speaker 1>it seems like really hard to believe for me.

0:35:37.830 --> 0:35:38.489
<v Speaker 3>I totally agree.

0:35:38.510 --> 0:35:43.009
<v Speaker 2>I think to your question about like, how does this

0:35:43.050 --> 0:35:45.290
<v Speaker 2>make sense? It's like, well, one thing that's happened since

0:35:45.350 --> 0:35:47.570
<v Speaker 2>I moved out to the Bay Area here, when I

0:35:47.610 --> 0:35:49.860
<v Speaker 2>got out here 10, just over 10 years ago, it

0:35:50.680 --> 0:35:53.120
<v Speaker 2>was like a big venture fund was like $ 300 million, right?

0:35:55.120 --> 0:35:59.450
<v Speaker 2>And now like the Andreessen Horowitz, I think across all

0:35:59.469 --> 0:36:04.110
<v Speaker 2>of their funds is like $ 100 billion. So that's an

0:36:04.170 --> 0:36:07.569
<v Speaker 2>insane amount of venture capital to deploy. And so they

0:36:07.610 --> 0:36:13.490
<v Speaker 2>actually need to find some really high dollar investments. There

0:36:13.650 --> 0:36:19.690
<v Speaker 2>just aren't enough good software investments in the Bay Area to,

0:36:19.710 --> 0:36:22.110
<v Speaker 2>they would have to invest in like every company and

0:36:22.130 --> 0:36:25.390
<v Speaker 2>there'd be no room for anyone else. So- Yeah, it's

0:36:25.430 --> 0:36:27.750
<v Speaker 2>a lot easier. It's one reason why like a lot

0:36:27.790 --> 0:36:31.390
<v Speaker 2>of venture capitalists have actually left these big funds and

0:36:31.450 --> 0:36:34.530
<v Speaker 2>gone and started their own funds with their own money

0:36:34.630 --> 0:36:39.710
<v Speaker 2>because you can make such a bigger percentage return on

0:36:39.750 --> 0:36:42.750
<v Speaker 2>your capital with a smaller amount of money to invest

0:36:43.390 --> 0:36:47.690
<v Speaker 2>in venture. So I think that's where the economics are.

0:36:48.110 --> 0:36:50.609
<v Speaker 2>Whether or not it's a good investment long term, I mean,

0:36:51.050 --> 0:36:54.500
<v Speaker 2>who knows? I mean, I personally, I think it's It's great.

0:36:54.620 --> 0:36:58.020
<v Speaker 2>I think venture capitalists, the problem with the last 10

0:36:58.020 --> 0:37:02.480
<v Speaker 2>years that I saw was that VCs weren't making big,

0:37:02.580 --> 0:37:05.810
<v Speaker 2>bold bets, which is the whole point of VC. They

0:37:05.830 --> 0:37:09.989
<v Speaker 2>shouldn't be investing in an online sock retailer. They should

0:37:10.030 --> 0:37:14.030
<v Speaker 2>be making investments on science and technology that are risky.

0:37:14.390 --> 0:37:18.589
<v Speaker 2>And I want to see more VCs invest in failed

0:37:18.700 --> 0:37:20.919
<v Speaker 2>companies because otherwise they're not taking enough risk.

0:37:21.790 --> 0:37:23.630
<v Speaker 3>I would also say, too, that now we're cool with

0:37:23.670 --> 0:37:25.489
<v Speaker 3>the Gulf again, which is where a lot of these

0:37:25.510 --> 0:37:27.290
<v Speaker 3>companies will then get money.

0:37:28.450 --> 0:37:29.850
<v Speaker 2>We are very cool with the Gulf.

0:37:30.150 --> 0:37:32.660
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, we're fine. We're fine with it. So they'll just

0:37:32.700 --> 0:37:34.050
<v Speaker 3>go to the southern world funds.

0:37:33.860 --> 0:37:37.319
<v Speaker 1>And it'll work out. Well, I mean, they're having their

0:37:37.340 --> 0:37:39.359
<v Speaker 1>own problems right now, to say the least. I mean,

0:37:40.400 --> 0:37:46.080
<v Speaker 1>we'll see what happens with their ability to export their

0:37:46.480 --> 0:37:49.120
<v Speaker 1>petrochemicals in the next year or so with the Iran conflict.

0:37:49.160 --> 0:37:51.080
<v Speaker 1>But that's sort of by the by. I think I

0:37:51.100 --> 0:37:53.190
<v Speaker 1>want to to sort of close, Margot, by asking about

0:37:53.210 --> 0:37:56.150
<v Speaker 1>the kind of cultural elements of this story. Like, we

0:37:56.190 --> 0:38:01.020
<v Speaker 1>joked before the break about, like, about tech bros being,

0:38:01.080 --> 0:38:03.640
<v Speaker 1>you know, shot before they can get into their bunkers

0:38:03.680 --> 0:38:10.379
<v Speaker 1>by their much more physically competent bodyguards. How much of the, like,

0:38:10.580 --> 0:38:15.569
<v Speaker 1>Old West, Yellowstone, like, you know, cowboy mining fantasy, like,

0:38:15.780 --> 0:38:18.150
<v Speaker 1>how powerful and present is that in this story?

0:38:18.170 --> 0:38:21.450
<v Speaker 3>Oh, my God. So much. I will say this is

0:38:21.510 --> 0:38:23.219
<v Speaker 3>a phrase that I think I've used in two pieces

0:38:23.280 --> 0:38:25.160
<v Speaker 3>and gotten away with. And I need to stop soon

0:38:25.180 --> 0:38:29.080
<v Speaker 3>because someone's going to notice is like generational ennui. Like I,

0:38:29.100 --> 0:38:31.739
<v Speaker 3>I think there is a sense amongst younger people that

0:38:31.760 --> 0:38:34.799
<v Speaker 3>they are just so screwed. Like there's been a lot

0:38:34.820 --> 0:38:36.759
<v Speaker 3>of talk about how computer science majors, like, is that

0:38:36.840 --> 0:38:39.210
<v Speaker 3>really a promise? Is that really going to deliver you to,

0:38:39.230 --> 0:38:42.430
<v Speaker 3>you know, a great job anymore? And I talked to

0:38:42.550 --> 0:38:45.069
<v Speaker 3>one founder that left his job in wall street to

0:38:45.090 --> 0:38:48.010
<v Speaker 3>found one of these mining companies. And He talked about,

0:38:48.050 --> 0:38:51.150
<v Speaker 3>he's like, there's bragging rights because everyone there is joking

0:38:51.190 --> 0:38:53.230
<v Speaker 3>about how their jobs are going to be eaten alive

0:38:53.270 --> 0:38:55.450
<v Speaker 3>by AI. They're seeing it, right? Like he's like, I

0:38:55.450 --> 0:38:58.290
<v Speaker 3>have friends at consultant firms. Accenture is just counting how

0:38:58.350 --> 0:39:01.250
<v Speaker 3>many times you use AI and they're judging you by that.

0:39:02.070 --> 0:39:03.890
<v Speaker 3>And he's like, there's a bragging rights to it when

0:39:03.910 --> 0:39:06.969
<v Speaker 3>you tell them that like, I'm in the desert right now. I'm,

0:39:07.969 --> 0:39:11.350
<v Speaker 3>you know, in the Congo. And I think that's also

0:39:11.450 --> 0:39:14.609
<v Speaker 3>like a big part of the defense tech boom too,

0:39:14.690 --> 0:39:16.910
<v Speaker 3>is like there is like a cultural clout in it.

0:39:18.210 --> 0:39:20.000
<v Speaker 3>I think there's a desire for it to be a

0:39:20.040 --> 0:39:24.109
<v Speaker 3>bomb to a generation that feels like the world has, um,

0:39:24.239 --> 0:39:25.150
<v Speaker 3>totally screwed them over.

0:39:25.170 --> 0:39:28.960
<v Speaker 1>So this is, this is in, cell revolution but uh

0:39:30.100 --> 0:39:33.080
<v Speaker 1>funded by vc is all you're saying.

0:39:33.500 --> 0:39:35.120
<v Speaker 3>All the stanford gods are going to be you know

0:39:35.180 --> 0:39:37.180
<v Speaker 3>in kentucky in the congo that's what.

0:39:37.100 --> 0:39:39.360
<v Speaker 1>I'm saying it was the other piece about generational and

0:39:39.400 --> 0:39:40.780
<v Speaker 1>we your trad wife piece.

0:39:41.239 --> 0:39:44.730
<v Speaker 3>Yeah yeah it was thanks for reading and don't tell

0:39:44.770 --> 0:39:45.589
<v Speaker 3>people don't tell.

0:39:45.510 --> 0:39:49.590
<v Speaker 1>My editor that i read any any final thoughts on

0:39:49.610 --> 0:39:49.930
<v Speaker 1>this one.

0:39:50.390 --> 0:39:53.000
<v Speaker 2>I think there's a, there's a, uh, the more, the

0:39:53.040 --> 0:39:56.880
<v Speaker 2>more the world becomes automated by software, um, and the

0:39:56.920 --> 0:40:00.600
<v Speaker 2>more our lives are forced online, I think the more

0:40:00.719 --> 0:40:05.100
<v Speaker 2>we crave things that are tactile, that are analog, that

0:40:05.140 --> 0:40:10.040
<v Speaker 2>are real. I think that's why people flock to go see, um,

0:40:10.400 --> 0:40:13.359
<v Speaker 2>you know, to see the Odyssey on 70 millimeter, right?

0:40:13.430 --> 0:40:15.910
<v Speaker 2>You could get tickets, you could get tickets to go

0:40:15.969 --> 0:40:19.609
<v Speaker 2>see the IMAX laser, And I, I probably couldn't even

0:40:19.650 --> 0:40:23.370
<v Speaker 2>tell the difference between the laser and the 70 millimeter projection,

0:40:23.390 --> 0:40:25.680
<v Speaker 2>but people wanted the 70 millimeter. Right. And I, I

0:40:25.719 --> 0:40:28.600
<v Speaker 2>think that's, that's one example, but you know, I think

0:40:29.219 --> 0:40:32.380
<v Speaker 2>like it's why people still buy record players. There's just a,

0:40:32.980 --> 0:40:34.960
<v Speaker 2>and I think the mining thing and wanting to be

0:40:35.060 --> 0:40:37.859
<v Speaker 2>out there doing something real and building something, I think

0:40:38.000 --> 0:40:41.390
<v Speaker 2>that that's, that's beyond that. That doesn't make you an incel.

0:40:41.430 --> 0:40:43.690
<v Speaker 2>I think that's like, you're just human. Like this is,

0:40:44.340 --> 0:40:48.029
<v Speaker 2>this is like what we are biologically programmed for. And like,

0:40:48.710 --> 0:40:51.290
<v Speaker 2>and I think people reject, they're rejecting like the, the

0:40:51.310 --> 0:40:56.480
<v Speaker 2>sort of artificial, you know, influencer, social media world that

0:40:56.520 --> 0:40:59.480
<v Speaker 2>has been like foisted on us by not just the

0:40:59.520 --> 0:41:03.029
<v Speaker 2>tech companies, but by like, Just a lot of people

0:41:03.090 --> 0:41:05.550
<v Speaker 2>who dove into that.

0:41:05.570 --> 0:41:08.529
<v Speaker 1>To be fair, I was a bit triggered by the

0:41:08.610 --> 0:41:11.989
<v Speaker 1>grandiosity of those company names. I mean, Hadrian, the Roman

0:41:12.030 --> 0:41:16.600
<v Speaker 1>emperor keeping the barbarians on the other side of the wall. Mariana,

0:41:16.640 --> 0:41:19.060
<v Speaker 1>the deepest part of the ocean. It's just always, I

0:41:19.340 --> 0:41:21.040
<v Speaker 1>find it a bit like... At.

0:41:21.020 --> 0:41:22.299
<v Speaker 2>Least it's not a Lord of the Rings.

0:41:22.320 --> 0:41:23.280
<v Speaker 1>That gives me ennui.

0:41:23.760 --> 0:41:26.060
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, whenever I see a defense company that's not Lord

0:41:26.080 --> 0:41:28.330
<v Speaker 3>of the Rings, I'm like, it's a small win for

0:41:28.610 --> 0:41:29.010
<v Speaker 3>the culture.

0:41:31.140 --> 0:41:32.879
<v Speaker 1>That's all we have time for. Margot, thanks for joining

0:41:32.900 --> 0:41:34.140
<v Speaker 1>us for the first time. I hope it won't be

0:41:34.160 --> 0:41:34.640
<v Speaker 1>the last.

0:41:34.880 --> 0:41:36.460
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, thanks for having me. This has been fun.

0:41:36.820 --> 0:41:38.740
<v Speaker 1>And Reid, thank you always. Absolutely.

0:41:38.760 --> 0:41:39.600
<v Speaker 2>Good to meet you, Margot.

0:41:55.900 --> 0:41:59.000
<v Speaker 1>For Tech Stuff, I'm Oz Veloshian. This episode was produced

0:41:59.080 --> 0:42:02.400
<v Speaker 1>by Eliza Dennis. It was executive produced by me and

0:42:02.460 --> 0:42:06.640
<v Speaker 1>Julia Nutter for Kaleidoscope and Katrina Norvell for iHeart Podcasts.

0:42:07.160 --> 0:42:09.920
<v Speaker 1>Jack Inslee mixed this episode and Kyle Murdoch wrote our

0:42:09.960 --> 0:42:10.390
<v Speaker 1>theme song.