WEBVTT - Mary Aiken: Cybercrime is Solvable 0:00:15.076 --> 0:00:25.276 Pushkin, This is solvable. I'm Ronald Young Jr. Leave a 0:00:25.316 --> 0:00:30.996 whole generation that have grown up as virtual shoplifters, pirating music, 0:00:31.236 --> 0:00:35.676 pirating movies. By time they're in college, they're pirating crack software. 0:00:35.876 --> 0:00:39.796 So for that cohort, the line between rights and wrong 0:00:40.196 --> 0:00:43.116 becomes a little blurred. I went to college in two 0:00:43.116 --> 0:00:46.436 thousand and two. Back then, we were still on black Planet, 0:00:46.756 --> 0:00:50.556 using live Journal, exchanging AOL screen names, and leaving up 0:00:50.596 --> 0:00:53.796 pointed emo song lyrics as a subliminal away message for 0:00:53.876 --> 0:00:57.556 the crush who broke our hearts. And I was also 0:00:57.676 --> 0:01:01.396 a virtual shoplifter. Before we had music streamers, before Apple 0:01:01.476 --> 0:01:05.956 Music and Spotify. We downloaded everything from what we're called 0:01:05.996 --> 0:01:10.156 peer to peer networks, music movies, that hot new warcraft 0:01:10.236 --> 0:01:13.916 game we wanted to play, and for poor college students, 0:01:13.956 --> 0:01:17.876 this was just the exciting new way of experiencing the world. 0:01:18.396 --> 0:01:20.396 We didn't see anything wrong with what we were doing. 0:01:20.676 --> 0:01:24.396 It was predicted that this year cybercrime would cost the 0:01:24.476 --> 0:01:29.196 global economy just over one trillion US dollars. To put 0:01:29.236 --> 0:01:33.116 that in perspective, that's like over six million tesla's being stolen, 0:01:33.316 --> 0:01:36.516 one hundred and fifty thousand dollars each, or approximately three 0:01:36.636 --> 0:01:40.156 Hope diamonds valued at three hundred and fifty million. It's 0:01:40.196 --> 0:01:44.076 just about equal to the entire infrastructure bill President Biden 0:01:44.196 --> 0:01:47.796 just side into law. Some estimate that if cybercrime is 0:01:47.836 --> 0:01:50.556 not addressed, it could cost a global economy over ten 0:01:50.716 --> 0:01:54.516 trillion dollars by twenty twenty five. It would seem that 0:01:54.556 --> 0:01:59.476 with every advancement in technology, criminals and opportunists find a 0:01:59.516 --> 0:02:03.356 new way to exploit it. The pace of technological innovation 0:02:03.796 --> 0:02:07.116 seems to move too fast for regulations to keep up, 0:02:07.596 --> 0:02:09.956 and not everyone is on board with all the ways 0:02:10.036 --> 0:02:13.516 we could bring order to the madness right now, when 0:02:13.516 --> 0:02:16.676 I talk to people about surveillance, they get really upset 0:02:16.676 --> 0:02:18.396 about this, and they were like, I don't want any 0:02:18.436 --> 0:02:23.756 government or any law enforcement agency practicing surveillance because I 0:02:23.796 --> 0:02:28.756 don't want to be surveilled. But you are being surveilled 0:02:28.756 --> 0:02:33.076 by social technology companies. You are offering everything up. They 0:02:33.076 --> 0:02:36.476 can practically predict what colored socks you're going to wear tomorrow. 0:02:37.036 --> 0:02:41.916 It's just surveillance by a different entity. Doctor Mary Aiken 0:02:42.036 --> 0:02:45.916 is an expert in forensic cyberpsychology, which is the study 0:02:45.956 --> 0:02:51.196 of criminal deviant and abnormal behavior online, So that means, unfortunately, 0:02:51.556 --> 0:02:55.236 she's kept pretty busy. In addition, she's a researcher and 0:02:55.356 --> 0:02:59.516 teacher and an academic advisor to Europole, the Cybercrime Center, 0:02:59.596 --> 0:03:02.636 the EC three, and she's a member of the interpoll 0:03:02.676 --> 0:03:06.956 Global Cybercrime Expert Group. She's doing a lot. I'm not overwhelmed. 0:03:06.996 --> 0:03:11.596 I maintain my sense of humor. I remain optimistic cybercrime 0:03:11.796 --> 0:03:19.796 and online harms are solvable. In two thousand and sixteen, 0:03:20.076 --> 0:03:25.756 NATO ratified cyberspace as an environment, acknowledging that the wars 0:03:25.796 --> 0:03:28.596 of the future would take place on land, see air, 0:03:28.796 --> 0:03:33.076 and on computer networks. This is a space, and this 0:03:33.116 --> 0:03:38.756 space comes with incredible opportunities but also risks. And I 0:03:38.796 --> 0:03:43.756 would argue that cybercrime and online harms are solvable problems 0:03:44.356 --> 0:03:50.476 if we understand the cyber behavioral dynamics in this space. 0:03:51.116 --> 0:03:53.996 So let's think about it like an iceberg. Whatever search 0:03:54.036 --> 0:03:58.316 engine they're using, like Google or Safari. Yeah, who, that's 0:03:58.316 --> 0:04:02.636 what we call the surface web, and that's between one 0:04:02.916 --> 0:04:07.516 and three percent of the Internet. It's the tip of 0:04:07.556 --> 0:04:11.676 the iceberg, and then of the whole part of the Internet, 0:04:11.716 --> 0:04:14.876 which is what we call what lies beneath, and that's 0:04:14.956 --> 0:04:19.556 the deep web, and certainly the spate helps to facilitate 0:04:19.596 --> 0:04:25.996 cybercriminal behavior. And what happens is that human behavior mutates 0:04:26.076 --> 0:04:31.396 or changes in this environment. So anonymity is a powerful 0:04:31.876 --> 0:04:38.676 psychological driver. In other words, it's a superhuman power. It 0:04:38.836 --> 0:04:44.836 is the age old mythical power of invisibility, and that 0:04:44.996 --> 0:04:52.156 comes with tremendous responsibility. So let's take anonymity. And often 0:04:52.396 --> 0:04:57.956 I debate on this topic, people will push back and say, oh, no, no, no, 0:04:58.396 --> 0:05:03.996 we can't do anything to change anonymity online because anonymity 0:05:04.236 --> 0:05:08.516 is a basic fundamental human right. No it is not. 0:05:09.436 --> 0:05:13.876 And yes, we want people in oppressed regimes to be 0:05:13.916 --> 0:05:18.516 able to post or blog or do whatever they want. 0:05:19.356 --> 0:05:23.236 But at what cost. And if the cost of that 0:05:23.556 --> 0:05:27.636 is cyber fraud and cyber crime and exploitation and coercion 0:05:27.916 --> 0:05:32.996 and extortion and what is described as revenge porn and 0:05:33.156 --> 0:05:36.516 all the things that we see that are going wrong online, 0:05:36.756 --> 0:05:40.156 then maybe the cost is too high. Now, before you 0:05:40.196 --> 0:05:41.996 get too far into that, let me let me back 0:05:42.076 --> 0:05:43.996 up for a second. I liked what you said about 0:05:44.036 --> 0:05:49.196 anonymity as being one of the vulnerabilities and the pitfalls 0:05:49.236 --> 0:05:52.756 between the human technology relationship. One are some other big 0:05:52.836 --> 0:05:57.756 vulnerabilities of the human technology relationship besides anonymity. Well, you 0:05:57.836 --> 0:06:03.436 have the online disinhibition effect, and it dictates people will 0:06:03.476 --> 0:06:05.836 do things online that they will not do in the 0:06:05.876 --> 0:06:10.116 real world. So it's like a form of innbriation or 0:06:10.196 --> 0:06:14.836 being drunk online. So what you see is that human 0:06:14.876 --> 0:06:22.556 behavior changes. You can also see more vulnerability expressed. Online. 0:06:23.036 --> 0:06:31.316 Hypochondria is excessive concerns about your symptoms. Cyberchondria is you 0:06:31.476 --> 0:06:35.116 have a headache which could be from too much coffee 0:06:35.476 --> 0:06:39.236 or could be a hangover, and you start googling symptoms 0:06:39.276 --> 0:06:42.316 about your headache and you end up reading about brain 0:06:42.436 --> 0:06:47.036 tumor and you start feeling anxiety as a result. That 0:06:47.116 --> 0:06:51.996 sounds familiar. So you might be perfectly well but end 0:06:52.076 --> 0:06:55.036 up with a nasty case of health anxiety as a 0:06:55.076 --> 0:07:02.036 result of careless search escalation during search. So with the pandemic, 0:07:02.156 --> 0:07:08.916 we had the infhodemic, this information overload which actually increased 0:07:09.236 --> 0:07:14.876 people's anxiety in the general population. And what we saw 0:07:15.076 --> 0:07:21.356 was that cybercriminals are incredibly adaptable and agile. They tapped 0:07:21.396 --> 0:07:27.196 into that anxiety by creating malicious u URLs are malicious 0:07:27.276 --> 0:07:33.156 links offering you discount personal protection equipment, offering you a 0:07:33.236 --> 0:07:38.356 vaccine click here, before vaccines were even readily available, offering 0:07:38.396 --> 0:07:42.716 you all sorts of cures. So people are anxious, they 0:07:42.756 --> 0:07:45.916 want to protect themselves in their families, so they're further 0:07:46.036 --> 0:07:49.596 more likely to click on a link and compromise their tech. 0:07:49.956 --> 0:07:53.756 And that's how the cyber criminals moved in. This doesn't 0:07:53.956 --> 0:07:59.396 feel different or that different from how crime and scams 0:07:59.396 --> 0:08:02.876 happen even when they were an analog, you know, before 0:08:02.876 --> 0:08:05.356 they went digital. Because we're talking about like things like 0:08:05.596 --> 0:08:08.196 you know, snake oil and what you're talking about an 0:08:08.196 --> 0:08:12.756 opportunism and people using vulnerable periods of time in which 0:08:12.796 --> 0:08:17.476 to actually enact a crime or to make someone a victim. 0:08:17.516 --> 0:08:20.756 In this case, it feels like the existence of this 0:08:20.796 --> 0:08:24.196 sort of technology, the existence of the Internet, creates a 0:08:24.276 --> 0:08:29.676 space for constant vulnerability. It makes it much easier. It 0:08:29.716 --> 0:08:35.716 opens up the range of victims from you weren't going 0:08:35.836 --> 0:08:39.276 to weren't going to fly halfway across the world to 0:08:39.316 --> 0:08:41.916 target somebody burgle their house, to fly all the way back, 0:08:42.236 --> 0:08:46.156 which you can do that online and what you know, 0:08:46.236 --> 0:08:49.116 your point about this feels like, you know, old school 0:08:49.196 --> 0:08:52.756 crime I would argue that in an age of technology, 0:08:53.516 --> 0:08:58.116 it's almost impossible to commit a crime that doesn't have 0:08:58.356 --> 0:09:04.676 some technology component to it. In twenty twenty, so last year, 0:09:05.196 --> 0:09:08.916 it was predicted that this year cybercrime would cost the 0:09:09.116 --> 0:09:14.316 global economy just over one trillion US dollars. It's predicted 0:09:14.716 --> 0:09:17.876 going forward that by twenty twenty five, the cost of 0:09:17.916 --> 0:09:34.356 cybercrime is going to be over ten trillion dollars. Do 0:09:34.396 --> 0:09:38.556 you think that the same people who would commit regular 0:09:38.596 --> 0:09:43.076 crime are the same people who will commit cyber crime? Again, 0:09:43.356 --> 0:09:52.396 it's complicated. You have existing hardcore organized crime groups who 0:09:52.876 --> 0:09:58.036 look at technology as a faster, better, cheaper way of 0:09:58.236 --> 0:10:05.356 conducting regular crime. You then have a group of people 0:10:05.756 --> 0:10:12.796 who are not career criminals but sort of get involved 0:10:12.836 --> 0:10:19.596 in using technology to engage in sort of entry level crime. 0:10:20.676 --> 0:10:23.836 Because we have a whole generation that have grown up 0:10:23.876 --> 0:10:30.076 as virtual shoplifters. So they've been pirating music, you know, 0:10:30.756 --> 0:10:34.516 like nineteen eleven, Then they are pirating movies. By time 0:10:34.516 --> 0:10:39.276 they're in college, they're pirating crack software. So for that cohort, 0:10:39.396 --> 0:10:45.316 a line between right and wrong becomes a little blurred. Yes, 0:10:45.636 --> 0:10:50.676 and you're a problem with your finances and somebody says, look, 0:10:50.716 --> 0:10:55.076 there's this great scheme whereby you can sign up to 0:10:55.316 --> 0:10:59.916 be some sort of logistics person for a corporation. All 0:10:59.916 --> 0:11:01.556 you've got to do is open a bank account. They 0:11:01.636 --> 0:11:03.836 put ten thousand dollars in. Then you just have to 0:11:03.876 --> 0:11:05.996 transfer it on somewhere else and you get to keep 0:11:06.476 --> 0:11:10.076 a thousand dollars And you might, oh, there feels like 0:11:10.116 --> 0:11:12.796 there's something real wrong with that, but it's a fast 0:11:12.836 --> 0:11:14.356 way to make money, and I need to pay my 0:11:14.436 --> 0:11:19.356 rent to be clear. You know, that's money laundering. It's 0:11:19.396 --> 0:11:23.556 a crime. So I think there's that cohort growing up 0:11:23.596 --> 0:11:27.356 where the boundaries are blurred, and that's where we've really 0:11:27.396 --> 0:11:31.476 got to educate. And then I think you've got another 0:11:31.556 --> 0:11:36.876 cohort who are young entrepreneurs, but they're cybercriminal entrepreneurs. This 0:11:36.996 --> 0:11:41.676 is a career path. And then you also have activists. 0:11:41.716 --> 0:11:47.356 You've activists, you have state sponsored and state condoned actors. 0:11:48.596 --> 0:11:51.236 You know, there's a there is a wide range of 0:11:51.276 --> 0:11:57.956 people engaging in harmful and criminal behavior in cyberspace. What's 0:11:57.956 --> 0:12:00.396 the next step? What do we do? What happens in 0:12:00.476 --> 0:12:03.996 cyberspace impacts on the real world. What happens in the 0:12:04.036 --> 0:12:08.636 real world impacts on cyberspace, so this is continuous relationship 0:12:08.716 --> 0:12:12.076 between the two. I think the first thing is that 0:12:12.116 --> 0:12:19.356 we've got to really think about governance and policing in cyberspace. 0:12:20.036 --> 0:12:22.356 And what we see from a law enforcement point of 0:12:22.436 --> 0:12:26.476 view is that law enforcement started in the real world, 0:12:27.476 --> 0:12:32.756 and as technology has evolved, law enforcement has tried to 0:12:32.916 --> 0:12:36.916 evolve to keep up with technology. But that presents a 0:12:36.956 --> 0:12:41.516 lot of challenges. For example, the encryption debate. You remember 0:12:41.556 --> 0:12:45.196 all that the Apple you know, hack me if you can. Yeah, 0:12:45.396 --> 0:12:48.996 law enforcement wanted Apple to hand them encrypted data, and 0:12:49.036 --> 0:12:51.196 Apple refused to do it because they said, this is 0:12:51.196 --> 0:12:53.436 our thing. It's encrypted. If you want to hack it, 0:12:53.476 --> 0:12:54.556 you can get it, but we're not just going to 0:12:54.636 --> 0:12:57.196 hand you encrypted data from our customers. There was all 0:12:57.196 --> 0:13:01.156 sorts of issues about that, about backdoors, about encryption, but 0:13:01.316 --> 0:13:05.076 these are really important issues to talk about as a 0:13:05.156 --> 0:13:11.996 society because we want law enforcement to deliver on safety 0:13:12.036 --> 0:13:16.356 and security in the real world. How are they going 0:13:16.396 --> 0:13:21.716 to deliver on safety and security in cyberspace when there 0:13:21.916 --> 0:13:27.116 exists in crypto domains that are effectively operating beyond the law. 0:13:28.036 --> 0:13:30.756 And if we accept as a relationship between the two, 0:13:31.596 --> 0:13:35.476 then it's going to continue to be more and more 0:13:35.556 --> 0:13:39.636 complicated going forward, so you know, we have to be 0:13:39.676 --> 0:13:43.236 involved have a voice in the governance of this space, 0:13:43.436 --> 0:13:45.236 just the way we have a voice in the governance 0:13:45.276 --> 0:13:48.436 of the real world. I am listening to you talk 0:13:48.476 --> 0:13:53.076 about policing and in and I think that there definitely 0:13:53.196 --> 0:13:58.396 is a way to regulate, especially criminal activity online. I 0:13:58.476 --> 0:14:00.876 was a victim of a cyber crime, and it occurred 0:14:00.916 --> 0:14:02.516 to me that there is really no way that I 0:14:02.516 --> 0:14:06.076 could ever catch this person or or chase them down 0:14:06.556 --> 0:14:09.636 based on what had happened. So it was, and it 0:14:09.716 --> 0:14:11.796 was it felt I felt pretty helpless at the time. 0:14:12.316 --> 0:14:14.356 I will say also, I was a victim of a 0:14:14.356 --> 0:14:17.076 real crime in which my car was broken into and 0:14:17.156 --> 0:14:21.076 my bag was stolen, and the police were not very 0:14:21.156 --> 0:14:22.796 much help in that case either. I do there was 0:14:22.836 --> 0:14:24.356 no way they're going to be able to catch this 0:14:24.396 --> 0:14:26.276 person and chased it down. I felt the same in 0:14:26.356 --> 0:14:31.556 both and both scenarios. The other part of this is historically, 0:14:31.636 --> 0:14:36.756 for some marginalized groups, policing has been a problematic conversation, 0:14:37.236 --> 0:14:39.476 and so even when we're talking about it now, there's 0:14:39.476 --> 0:14:42.316 a part of me that's like, I don't know who 0:14:42.356 --> 0:14:47.356 I want regulating this online, especially when you know historically 0:14:47.356 --> 0:14:52.036 there has been you know, racism, misogyny, homophobia, all those 0:14:52.076 --> 0:14:56.716 things involved in policing also taking part in defining what 0:14:56.796 --> 0:15:01.436 crime is, which is a whole other conversation. So how 0:15:01.436 --> 0:15:06.556 do we regulate at actually catch criminals, catch cyber criminals 0:15:06.876 --> 0:15:11.236 without also overcorrecting in a way that continues to oppress 0:15:11.276 --> 0:15:16.836 the marginalized groups that continually feel oppressed by unjust policing. Ronald, 0:15:16.916 --> 0:15:19.316 You're right about policing and racism and all the stuff 0:15:19.316 --> 0:15:22.476 that's going down. So I'm trying not to be prescriptive there. 0:15:23.196 --> 0:15:25.596 And you don't want a non national telling Americans had 0:15:25.676 --> 0:15:28.996 to govern themselves either. I'm sensitive to that. So I 0:15:29.036 --> 0:15:32.116 think that that's why we need to have the conversation. 0:15:32.676 --> 0:15:36.636 And the conversation might be we don't need any police 0:15:36.676 --> 0:15:39.356 on the internet. That might be if we want to 0:15:39.396 --> 0:15:42.236 have a conversation, then everything should be on the table. 0:15:42.676 --> 0:15:46.116 For example, we could say, well, how about the companies 0:15:46.156 --> 0:15:50.716 who profit in this space? How about the police are governed. 0:15:50.796 --> 0:15:53.556 Let's not use the word police, let's say governed cyberspace. 0:15:54.156 --> 0:15:59.596 Because this is the problem. You have huge corporations that 0:15:59.916 --> 0:16:03.436 ultimately lie under the radar and may have aspirations of 0:16:03.516 --> 0:16:10.836 statehood operating in cyberspace, and law enforcement thinly stretched resource 0:16:11.476 --> 0:16:14.556 trying to clean up, you know, as they go along. 0:16:15.156 --> 0:16:18.356 And what's happening in countries like the UK. I work 0:16:18.516 --> 0:16:23.116 closely with government there, And we have a new piece 0:16:23.156 --> 0:16:27.796 of legislation coming through called the Online Safety Bill, and 0:16:27.836 --> 0:16:31.916 it's going to force a duty of care for those 0:16:31.956 --> 0:16:35.276 corporations to profit in cyberspace. So let's take crimes like 0:16:35.356 --> 0:16:40.756 cyberbulling or harassment or what is described as revenge porn, 0:16:41.036 --> 0:16:45.116 and let's make these companies responsible for cleaning that up. 0:16:45.676 --> 0:16:50.236 Then let's take mists and disinformation. And while that's not 0:16:50.396 --> 0:16:55.236 criminal activity per se, it can certainly lead to racist attacks, 0:16:55.236 --> 0:16:57.156 and it can lead to all sorts of threats, and 0:16:57.196 --> 0:16:59.956 it can hate speech, can lead to when you know, 0:17:00.036 --> 0:17:02.356 this is a broad spectrum of what we describe as 0:17:02.396 --> 0:17:06.996 online harm. But are these issues policing issues? Are are 0:17:07.076 --> 0:17:12.956 these civil society issues? And let's think about, for example, 0:17:13.556 --> 0:17:17.876 child pornography. If you have a young person who's sexually curious, 0:17:17.916 --> 0:17:20.636 then they're eleven or twelve or thirteen, and they take 0:17:20.636 --> 0:17:23.076 an image and they send it to their boyfriend, or 0:17:23.116 --> 0:17:26.996 girlfriend who's also thirteen or fourteen. If you've generated an 0:17:27.036 --> 0:17:30.996 image and it's explicit and you are under age, then 0:17:31.116 --> 0:17:35.596 de facto you are generating and distributing child pornography, albeit 0:17:35.676 --> 0:17:40.916 of yourself. That doesn't make sense to criminalize that behavior. 0:17:41.516 --> 0:17:44.156 So let's take all of that behavior and think is 0:17:44.156 --> 0:17:47.356 this a police issue or is this an issue that 0:17:47.436 --> 0:17:50.316 needs to be dealt with separately? And then if you 0:17:50.356 --> 0:17:52.476 look at youth hackers, you know, if you've got a 0:17:52.516 --> 0:17:56.836 tech talented youth upstairs in the bedroom of their parents home, 0:17:57.356 --> 0:18:00.756 and if that kid becomes curious and starts probing around 0:18:00.756 --> 0:18:05.596 the edges of a network and then breaches accidentally or 0:18:05.636 --> 0:18:10.236 through curiosity, is that child a hacker or is that 0:18:10.356 --> 0:18:14.076 somebody who needs to be educated? You know, if we 0:18:14.156 --> 0:18:19.676 can't identify tech talent and young people, how can we 0:18:19.756 --> 0:18:24.356 stage interventions. We have IQ, we have EQ, we have CQ, 0:18:24.796 --> 0:18:29.356 we have no TQ, no technology quotient, So we can't 0:18:29.436 --> 0:18:33.436 screen from them. We can't identify. Then, we can't educate them. 0:18:33.436 --> 0:18:36.516 We can't stage intervention. But what we can do is 0:18:36.516 --> 0:18:40.716 when the fourteen or fifteen is prosecute them. It sounds 0:18:40.756 --> 0:18:43.516 like you're saying that there's multiple ways that we need 0:18:43.556 --> 0:18:47.436 to examine the behavior that's happening online. And then we 0:18:47.476 --> 0:18:51.876 need to also define what criminal activity is and who 0:18:51.916 --> 0:18:55.196 can be criminals online, and then three, we need to 0:18:55.236 --> 0:18:58.516 regulate it. We then need to regulate that behavior. Am 0:18:58.516 --> 0:19:02.156 I mischaracterizing that as being a solution? No? I think 0:19:02.156 --> 0:19:05.956 that's fair. And we have a chance here to renegotiate 0:19:05.996 --> 0:19:10.276 the social contract that has existed for thousands of years 0:19:10.356 --> 0:19:12.956 and more recently in the US. I'm Europeans, so I 0:19:12.956 --> 0:19:19.636 can say thousands, okay, but the social contract we can 0:19:19.876 --> 0:19:24.436 talk about that. We can say, right, let's take online harms, 0:19:24.516 --> 0:19:29.556 this range of undesirable behaviors, harmful behaviors, in some cases 0:19:29.556 --> 0:19:33.276 criminal behaviors. Well, how about we make Facebook or Twitter 0:19:33.716 --> 0:19:38.356 or Instagram responsible for that and say, guys, you profit 0:19:38.476 --> 0:19:41.876 in this space, and in fact, many of your technologies 0:19:41.956 --> 0:19:46.116 exacerbate these problems, So you go figure and go deal 0:19:46.156 --> 0:19:49.436 with that. Then let's take young people and what they do, 0:19:49.556 --> 0:19:54.916 what we describe as juvenile cyber delinquency pathways into cybercrime, 0:19:54.916 --> 0:19:58.556 and let's deal with them separately and not criminalize young 0:19:58.596 --> 0:20:01.636 people who are tech curious, who don't have parents who 0:20:01.676 --> 0:20:04.076 can teach them who don't have teachers who are as 0:20:04.156 --> 0:20:08.476 knowledgeable about technologies they are, and let's deal with them separately. 0:20:09.276 --> 0:20:14.956 And then let's look at technology solutions to technology facilitated 0:20:15.036 --> 0:20:18.876 problem behaviors, because we can't solve this with human intervention. 0:20:19.076 --> 0:20:23.076 We're going to need AI artificial intelligence and mL machine 0:20:23.156 --> 0:20:28.596 learning solutions because there's just too much stuff happening. But 0:20:28.716 --> 0:20:32.396 we have to be able to quip law enforcement to 0:20:32.396 --> 0:20:38.316 carry out investigations, to actually deal with issues around encryption, 0:20:39.316 --> 0:20:43.916 to deal with issues around privacy and surveillance. And when 0:20:43.916 --> 0:20:47.076 I talk to people about surveillance, they get really upset 0:20:47.116 --> 0:20:49.276 about this, and they're like, I don't want any government 0:20:49.796 --> 0:20:54.436 or any law enforcement agency practicing surveillance because I don't 0:20:54.436 --> 0:20:59.316 want to be surveilled. But you are being surveilled by 0:20:59.396 --> 0:21:03.636 social technology companies. You are offering everything up. They can 0:21:03.636 --> 0:21:06.916 practically predict what color socks you're going to wear tomorrow. 0:21:07.436 --> 0:21:11.516 It's just surveillance buy a different entity by people who 0:21:11.556 --> 0:21:14.196 are not elected, by people who don't have a duty 0:21:14.196 --> 0:21:17.196 of care, who don't have a mandate. Are you Are 0:21:17.196 --> 0:21:20.076 you optimistic that this is going to be solved? Because 0:21:20.156 --> 0:21:23.316 I hear you talking through a lot of theories. Are 0:21:23.356 --> 0:21:29.756 you optimistic about the actionable steps? I am increasingly optimistic. 0:21:29.956 --> 0:21:31.996 If you'd asked me that ten years ago, I would 0:21:31.996 --> 0:21:37.756 have said no. I'm increasingly optimistic for a couple of reasons. One, 0:21:37.996 --> 0:21:42.836 I understand cyber behavioral science. Secondly, are work closely with 0:21:42.916 --> 0:21:48.676 law enforcement, with policy makers, and I'm solutions focused. And thirdly, 0:21:49.596 --> 0:21:53.556 class and group actions. This is the money piece. We've 0:21:53.556 --> 0:21:58.236 been here before cigarettes asbest us. There is going to 0:21:58.236 --> 0:22:02.516 come a point when the social technology companies who are 0:22:02.556 --> 0:22:07.796 responsible for some of these harms are going to have 0:22:08.036 --> 0:22:11.476 to do better. And they won't do better because we 0:22:11.556 --> 0:22:14.156 tell them too, And they won't do better because the 0:22:14.236 --> 0:22:17.636 government asked them to do better. They will do better 0:22:18.396 --> 0:22:22.356 when it financially hurts them not to do so. And 0:22:22.476 --> 0:22:25.516 I think that gives people hope, and we always want 0:22:25.676 --> 0:22:46.196 to you know, humans need hope. Doctor Aiken, you talked 0:22:46.236 --> 0:22:48.676 about asking companies that profit in this space to take 0:22:48.676 --> 0:22:52.716 action to regulate themselves. You mentioned Facebook and Twitter and Instagram, 0:22:52.716 --> 0:22:55.716 and I'll add YouTube at four Chad at eight Chad, 0:22:56.116 --> 0:22:59.556 all places where disinformation can flourish. And I have to 0:22:59.556 --> 0:23:02.476 say I'm not so impressed with their self regulating so far. 0:23:02.996 --> 0:23:06.476 I mean when I think about January sixth, the insurrection 0:23:06.516 --> 0:23:10.276 at the Capitol, which happened just earlier this year, I 0:23:10.356 --> 0:23:13.596 get emotional. I'm angry. I'm just like, y'all have to 0:23:13.596 --> 0:23:17.276 be responsible for this disinformation. And I mean that's easy 0:23:17.316 --> 0:23:19.636 for me to say from a soapbox, y'all need to 0:23:19.676 --> 0:23:23.036 regulate this. But how are you feeling about this? As 0:23:23.076 --> 0:23:27.196 an expert in cybercrime and criminal psychology, I think, and 0:23:27.236 --> 0:23:29.956 this is just my opinion, I think they know a 0:23:29.996 --> 0:23:33.556 lot more than they admit too. I think social media 0:23:33.596 --> 0:23:36.396 companies have their finger on the pulse of the Internet. 0:23:36.796 --> 0:23:39.156 I think they know along before any of us when 0:23:39.196 --> 0:23:45.516 something is moving. That said, can they admit that they should? 0:23:46.196 --> 0:23:48.996 And when you talk about the events of Capitol Hill, 0:23:49.956 --> 0:23:55.436 what we saw there was very interesting in terms of cyberpsychology. 0:23:55.516 --> 0:24:00.036 I mean tragic, but interesting because that's the first real 0:24:00.076 --> 0:24:07.756 world example of what happens when the online world facilitates 0:24:07.836 --> 0:24:14.316 the normalization and socialization of fake news, of misinformation syndicates 0:24:14.356 --> 0:24:18.996 to bring people together and creates virtual echo chambers to 0:24:19.036 --> 0:24:24.076 reinforce and normalize and socialize belief systems, and then that 0:24:24.196 --> 0:24:28.396 explodes into the real world with tragic consequences, and I 0:24:28.436 --> 0:24:32.316 think that got the attention of all agencies. In fact, 0:24:32.396 --> 0:24:34.396 the day after it happened, I got a call for 0:24:34.516 --> 0:24:38.676 a senior person in a US agency who said, Mary, 0:24:38.676 --> 0:24:41.996 you stood in front of us five years ago and 0:24:42.076 --> 0:24:44.516 told us this what happened, and it did. And I 0:24:44.556 --> 0:24:47.316 just wanted to say that you were right. So I 0:24:47.316 --> 0:24:50.916 don't want to be right after the fact. I want 0:24:51.156 --> 0:24:56.556 to say this is eminently predictable. This is a very 0:24:56.956 --> 0:25:03.436 very powerful tool technology, the Internet, the connectivity. And people 0:25:03.676 --> 0:25:07.996 ask me about causation, you know, they say, does the 0:25:08.036 --> 0:25:14.116 internet cause bad behavior? Online harms criminal behavior? And there's 0:25:14.116 --> 0:25:17.076 two ways of looking at this. So what we can 0:25:17.116 --> 0:25:20.356 say is the connectivity, how we are connected with each 0:25:20.356 --> 0:25:25.156 other afforded by technology. We can say, yeah, maybe that 0:25:25.396 --> 0:25:28.556 causes bad behavior. Maybe it causes us to do things 0:25:28.676 --> 0:25:33.476 we would normally not have done. Or maybe what it's 0:25:33.516 --> 0:25:38.516 doing is shining a very bright light into the darkest 0:25:39.156 --> 0:25:42.756 reaches of the human psyche what Young called the two 0:25:42.836 --> 0:25:47.636 million year old man or woman. And maybe we're all 0:25:47.716 --> 0:25:53.836 just Game of Thrones underneath it all. Doctor Aked, you 0:25:53.836 --> 0:25:56.156 are blowing my mind. I just I want to end 0:25:56.196 --> 0:25:59.916 on a lighter note. There's a show called CSI Cyber 0:26:00.356 --> 0:26:03.596 where Patricia Arquette plays a character based off of you. 0:26:04.476 --> 0:26:08.596 How does that feel? Incredible? I'm going to write another book, 0:26:08.676 --> 0:26:10.316 and I'm going to write a book about how to 0:26:10.316 --> 0:26:17.476 get ahead in Hollywood without even trying. I have survivors 0:26:17.556 --> 0:26:19.516 guilt for all the authors and the people who pitched 0:26:19.516 --> 0:26:21.676 TV shows, and I know how hard they work. I 0:26:21.716 --> 0:26:24.836 had one one meeting, one meeting, and they commissioned the 0:26:24.836 --> 0:26:28.876 show on the spot. Wow, that's amazing. That was it. 0:26:29.356 --> 0:26:33.676 And I had one meeting with CBS and the head 0:26:33.716 --> 0:26:37.916 of Broadcasting and Entertainment. It was fifteen minutes. It turned 0:26:37.956 --> 0:26:40.316 into three hours. They stood up at the end of 0:26:40.316 --> 0:26:45.076 the meeting. The CBS lead looked left and right and said, 0:26:45.076 --> 0:26:47.196 are we all agreed? And then they looked at me 0:26:47.236 --> 0:26:49.436 and they said, we want to make a TV show 0:26:49.796 --> 0:26:53.156 CSI Cyber, based on you. And I issued the immortal words, 0:26:53.236 --> 0:26:58.556 can I get back to you? CBS called me back 0:26:58.556 --> 0:27:01.756 into the meeting and they said, they said, we're going 0:27:01.796 --> 0:27:05.556 to make you a producer on the show. Hey. I 0:27:05.636 --> 0:27:08.676 didn't know what it meant, though, so I said I'm sorry, 0:27:08.516 --> 0:27:11.676 I can do that, and they said is this a 0:27:11.756 --> 0:27:14.676 negotiation strategy, and I said no, I just don't have 0:27:14.756 --> 0:27:17.996 that sort of money, and they're like, no, no, we 0:27:17.996 --> 0:27:22.676 don't want your money. We want to give you more money. 0:27:22.876 --> 0:27:25.196 I've only ever seen the movie the producers know where 0:27:25.196 --> 0:27:27.396 they were trying to raise money for the show, and 0:27:27.516 --> 0:27:29.716 I just thought they were asking me for money. So 0:27:29.916 --> 0:27:32.156 they tell they tell that story. I was the first 0:27:32.156 --> 0:27:34.636 person they'd ever offered this deal too, and I was like, no, 0:27:34.836 --> 0:27:48.436 thank you, thanks, but no thanks. Doctor Aikin. Before we wrap, 0:27:48.476 --> 0:27:50.996 I want to ask you about what listeners can do 0:27:51.076 --> 0:27:53.956 to get more involved. You've invited them to the conversation, 0:27:54.076 --> 0:27:56.676 but what would that look like. I think we have 0:27:56.756 --> 0:28:01.916 to think about global solutions because cyberspace is a global construct. 0:28:02.316 --> 0:28:07.196 But I think equally we have to be respectful of 0:28:07.436 --> 0:28:13.116 national criteria of cultural differences in different countries who want 0:28:13.236 --> 0:28:17.396 to approach cyberspace in their own way for their own population. 0:28:18.316 --> 0:28:21.756 So I think that you have solutions that are local 0:28:22.196 --> 0:28:26.756 country by country, and then you have agreed solutions in 0:28:26.836 --> 0:28:32.076 shared spaces in cyberspace. We have maritime law for shared waters, 0:28:32.116 --> 0:28:37.516 we have aviation law for the shared airspace. So I 0:28:37.516 --> 0:28:39.836 think they're basic things we can agree on and then 0:28:39.876 --> 0:28:43.636 there's some things that will need to be legislated country 0:28:43.716 --> 0:28:47.636 by country. I would ask listeners to reach out to 0:28:47.676 --> 0:28:51.356 their local legislators, their local politicians. There are a number 0:28:51.396 --> 0:28:54.276