1 00:00:15,076 --> 00:00:25,276 Speaker 1: Pushkin, This is solvable. I'm Ronald Young Jr. Leave a 2 00:00:25,316 --> 00:00:30,996 Speaker 1: whole generation that have grown up as virtual shoplifters, pirating music, 3 00:00:31,236 --> 00:00:35,676 Speaker 1: pirating movies. By time they're in college, they're pirating crack software. 4 00:00:35,876 --> 00:00:39,796 Speaker 1: So for that cohort, the line between rights and wrong 5 00:00:40,196 --> 00:00:43,116 Speaker 1: becomes a little blurred. I went to college in two 6 00:00:43,116 --> 00:00:46,436 Speaker 1: thousand and two. Back then, we were still on black Planet, 7 00:00:46,756 --> 00:00:50,556 Speaker 1: using live Journal, exchanging AOL screen names, and leaving up 8 00:00:50,596 --> 00:00:53,796 Speaker 1: pointed emo song lyrics as a subliminal away message for 9 00:00:53,876 --> 00:00:57,556 Speaker 1: the crush who broke our hearts. And I was also 10 00:00:57,676 --> 00:01:01,396 Speaker 1: a virtual shoplifter. Before we had music streamers, before Apple 11 00:01:01,476 --> 00:01:05,956 Speaker 1: Music and Spotify. We downloaded everything from what we're called 12 00:01:05,996 --> 00:01:10,156 Speaker 1: peer to peer networks, music movies, that hot new warcraft 13 00:01:10,236 --> 00:01:13,916 Speaker 1: game we wanted to play, and for poor college students, 14 00:01:13,956 --> 00:01:17,876 Speaker 1: this was just the exciting new way of experiencing the world. 15 00:01:18,396 --> 00:01:20,396 Speaker 1: We didn't see anything wrong with what we were doing. 16 00:01:20,676 --> 00:01:24,396 Speaker 1: It was predicted that this year cybercrime would cost the 17 00:01:24,476 --> 00:01:29,196 Speaker 1: global economy just over one trillion US dollars. To put 18 00:01:29,236 --> 00:01:33,116 Speaker 1: that in perspective, that's like over six million tesla's being stolen, 19 00:01:33,316 --> 00:01:36,516 Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty thousand dollars each, or approximately three 20 00:01:36,636 --> 00:01:40,156 Speaker 1: Hope diamonds valued at three hundred and fifty million. It's 21 00:01:40,196 --> 00:01:44,076 Speaker 1: just about equal to the entire infrastructure bill President Biden 22 00:01:44,196 --> 00:01:47,796 Speaker 1: just side into law. Some estimate that if cybercrime is 23 00:01:47,836 --> 00:01:50,556 Speaker 1: not addressed, it could cost a global economy over ten 24 00:01:50,716 --> 00:01:54,516 Speaker 1: trillion dollars by twenty twenty five. It would seem that 25 00:01:54,556 --> 00:01:59,476 Speaker 1: with every advancement in technology, criminals and opportunists find a 26 00:01:59,516 --> 00:02:03,356 Speaker 1: new way to exploit it. The pace of technological innovation 27 00:02:03,796 --> 00:02:07,116 Speaker 1: seems to move too fast for regulations to keep up, 28 00:02:07,596 --> 00:02:09,956 Speaker 1: and not everyone is on board with all the ways 29 00:02:10,036 --> 00:02:13,516 Speaker 1: we could bring order to the madness right now, when 30 00:02:13,516 --> 00:02:16,676 Speaker 1: I talk to people about surveillance, they get really upset 31 00:02:16,676 --> 00:02:18,396 Speaker 1: about this, and they were like, I don't want any 32 00:02:18,436 --> 00:02:23,756 Speaker 1: government or any law enforcement agency practicing surveillance because I 33 00:02:23,796 --> 00:02:28,756 Speaker 1: don't want to be surveilled. But you are being surveilled 34 00:02:28,756 --> 00:02:33,076 Speaker 1: by social technology companies. You are offering everything up. They 35 00:02:33,076 --> 00:02:36,476 Speaker 1: can practically predict what colored socks you're going to wear tomorrow. 36 00:02:37,036 --> 00:02:41,916 Speaker 1: It's just surveillance by a different entity. Doctor Mary Aiken 37 00:02:42,036 --> 00:02:45,916 Speaker 1: is an expert in forensic cyberpsychology, which is the study 38 00:02:45,956 --> 00:02:51,196 Speaker 1: of criminal deviant and abnormal behavior online, So that means, unfortunately, 39 00:02:51,556 --> 00:02:55,236 Speaker 1: she's kept pretty busy. In addition, she's a researcher and 40 00:02:55,356 --> 00:02:59,516 Speaker 1: teacher and an academic advisor to Europole, the Cybercrime Center, 41 00:02:59,596 --> 00:03:02,636 Speaker 1: the EC three, and she's a member of the interpoll 42 00:03:02,676 --> 00:03:06,956 Speaker 1: Global Cybercrime Expert Group. She's doing a lot. I'm not overwhelmed. 43 00:03:06,996 --> 00:03:11,596 Speaker 1: I maintain my sense of humor. I remain optimistic cybercrime 44 00:03:11,796 --> 00:03:19,796 Speaker 1: and online harms are solvable. In two thousand and sixteen, 45 00:03:20,076 --> 00:03:25,756 Speaker 1: NATO ratified cyberspace as an environment, acknowledging that the wars 46 00:03:25,796 --> 00:03:28,596 Speaker 1: of the future would take place on land, see air, 47 00:03:28,796 --> 00:03:33,076 Speaker 1: and on computer networks. This is a space, and this 48 00:03:33,116 --> 00:03:38,756 Speaker 1: space comes with incredible opportunities but also risks. And I 49 00:03:38,796 --> 00:03:43,756 Speaker 1: would argue that cybercrime and online harms are solvable problems 50 00:03:44,356 --> 00:03:50,476 Speaker 1: if we understand the cyber behavioral dynamics in this space. 51 00:03:51,116 --> 00:03:53,996 Speaker 1: So let's think about it like an iceberg. Whatever search 52 00:03:54,036 --> 00:03:58,316 Speaker 1: engine they're using, like Google or Safari. Yeah, who, that's 53 00:03:58,316 --> 00:04:02,636 Speaker 1: what we call the surface web, and that's between one 54 00:04:02,916 --> 00:04:07,516 Speaker 1: and three percent of the Internet. It's the tip of 55 00:04:07,556 --> 00:04:11,676 Speaker 1: the iceberg, and then of the whole part of the Internet, 56 00:04:11,716 --> 00:04:14,876 Speaker 1: which is what we call what lies beneath, and that's 57 00:04:14,956 --> 00:04:19,556 Speaker 1: the deep web, and certainly the spate helps to facilitate 58 00:04:19,596 --> 00:04:25,996 Speaker 1: cybercriminal behavior. And what happens is that human behavior mutates 59 00:04:26,076 --> 00:04:31,396 Speaker 1: or changes in this environment. So anonymity is a powerful 60 00:04:31,876 --> 00:04:38,676 Speaker 1: psychological driver. In other words, it's a superhuman power. It 61 00:04:38,836 --> 00:04:44,836 Speaker 1: is the age old mythical power of invisibility, and that 62 00:04:44,996 --> 00:04:52,156 Speaker 1: comes with tremendous responsibility. So let's take anonymity. And often 63 00:04:52,396 --> 00:04:57,956 Speaker 1: I debate on this topic, people will push back and say, oh, no, no, no, 64 00:04:58,396 --> 00:05:03,996 Speaker 1: we can't do anything to change anonymity online because anonymity 65 00:05:04,236 --> 00:05:08,516 Speaker 1: is a basic fundamental human right. No it is not. 66 00:05:09,436 --> 00:05:13,876 Speaker 1: And yes, we want people in oppressed regimes to be 67 00:05:13,916 --> 00:05:18,516 Speaker 1: able to post or blog or do whatever they want. 68 00:05:19,356 --> 00:05:23,236 Speaker 1: But at what cost. And if the cost of that 69 00:05:23,556 --> 00:05:27,636 Speaker 1: is cyber fraud and cyber crime and exploitation and coercion 70 00:05:27,916 --> 00:05:32,996 Speaker 1: and extortion and what is described as revenge porn and 71 00:05:33,156 --> 00:05:36,516 Speaker 1: all the things that we see that are going wrong online, 72 00:05:36,756 --> 00:05:40,156 Speaker 1: then maybe the cost is too high. Now, before you 73 00:05:40,196 --> 00:05:41,996 Speaker 1: get too far into that, let me let me back 74 00:05:42,076 --> 00:05:43,996 Speaker 1: up for a second. I liked what you said about 75 00:05:44,036 --> 00:05:49,196 Speaker 1: anonymity as being one of the vulnerabilities and the pitfalls 76 00:05:49,236 --> 00:05:52,756 Speaker 1: between the human technology relationship. One are some other big 77 00:05:52,836 --> 00:05:57,756 Speaker 1: vulnerabilities of the human technology relationship besides anonymity. Well, you 78 00:05:57,836 --> 00:06:03,436 Speaker 1: have the online disinhibition effect, and it dictates people will 79 00:06:03,476 --> 00:06:05,836 Speaker 1: do things online that they will not do in the 80 00:06:05,876 --> 00:06:10,116 Speaker 1: real world. So it's like a form of innbriation or 81 00:06:10,196 --> 00:06:14,836 Speaker 1: being drunk online. So what you see is that human 82 00:06:14,876 --> 00:06:22,556 Speaker 1: behavior changes. You can also see more vulnerability expressed. Online. 83 00:06:23,036 --> 00:06:31,316 Speaker 1: Hypochondria is excessive concerns about your symptoms. Cyberchondria is you 84 00:06:31,476 --> 00:06:35,116 Speaker 1: have a headache which could be from too much coffee 85 00:06:35,476 --> 00:06:39,236 Speaker 1: or could be a hangover, and you start googling symptoms 86 00:06:39,276 --> 00:06:42,316 Speaker 1: about your headache and you end up reading about brain 87 00:06:42,436 --> 00:06:47,036 Speaker 1: tumor and you start feeling anxiety as a result. That 88 00:06:47,116 --> 00:06:51,996 Speaker 1: sounds familiar. So you might be perfectly well but end 89 00:06:52,076 --> 00:06:55,036 Speaker 1: up with a nasty case of health anxiety as a 90 00:06:55,076 --> 00:07:02,036 Speaker 1: result of careless search escalation during search. So with the pandemic, 91 00:07:02,156 --> 00:07:08,916 Speaker 1: we had the infhodemic, this information overload which actually increased 92 00:07:09,236 --> 00:07:14,876 Speaker 1: people's anxiety in the general population. And what we saw 93 00:07:15,076 --> 00:07:21,356 Speaker 1: was that cybercriminals are incredibly adaptable and agile. They tapped 94 00:07:21,396 --> 00:07:27,196 Speaker 1: into that anxiety by creating malicious u URLs are malicious 95 00:07:27,276 --> 00:07:33,156 Speaker 1: links offering you discount personal protection equipment, offering you a 96 00:07:33,236 --> 00:07:38,356 Speaker 1: vaccine click here, before vaccines were even readily available, offering 97 00:07:38,396 --> 00:07:42,716 Speaker 1: you all sorts of cures. So people are anxious, they 98 00:07:42,756 --> 00:07:45,916 Speaker 1: want to protect themselves in their families, so they're further 99 00:07:46,036 --> 00:07:49,596 Speaker 1: more likely to click on a link and compromise their tech. 100 00:07:49,956 --> 00:07:53,756 Speaker 1: And that's how the cyber criminals moved in. This doesn't 101 00:07:53,956 --> 00:07:59,396 Speaker 1: feel different or that different from how crime and scams 102 00:07:59,396 --> 00:08:02,876 Speaker 1: happen even when they were an analog, you know, before 103 00:08:02,876 --> 00:08:05,356 Speaker 1: they went digital. Because we're talking about like things like 104 00:08:05,596 --> 00:08:08,196 Speaker 1: you know, snake oil and what you're talking about an 105 00:08:08,196 --> 00:08:12,756 Speaker 1: opportunism and people using vulnerable periods of time in which 106 00:08:12,796 --> 00:08:17,476 Speaker 1: to actually enact a crime or to make someone a victim. 107 00:08:17,516 --> 00:08:20,756 Speaker 1: In this case, it feels like the existence of this 108 00:08:20,796 --> 00:08:24,196 Speaker 1: sort of technology, the existence of the Internet, creates a 109 00:08:24,276 --> 00:08:29,676 Speaker 1: space for constant vulnerability. It makes it much easier. It 110 00:08:29,716 --> 00:08:35,716 Speaker 1: opens up the range of victims from you weren't going 111 00:08:35,836 --> 00:08:39,276 Speaker 1: to weren't going to fly halfway across the world to 112 00:08:39,316 --> 00:08:41,916 Speaker 1: target somebody burgle their house, to fly all the way back, 113 00:08:42,236 --> 00:08:46,156 Speaker 1: which you can do that online and what you know, 114 00:08:46,236 --> 00:08:49,116 Speaker 1: your point about this feels like, you know, old school 115 00:08:49,196 --> 00:08:52,756 Speaker 1: crime I would argue that in an age of technology, 116 00:08:53,516 --> 00:08:58,116 Speaker 1: it's almost impossible to commit a crime that doesn't have 117 00:08:58,356 --> 00:09:04,676 Speaker 1: some technology component to it. In twenty twenty, so last year, 118 00:09:05,196 --> 00:09:08,916 Speaker 1: it was predicted that this year cybercrime would cost the 119 00:09:09,116 --> 00:09:14,316 Speaker 1: global economy just over one trillion US dollars. It's predicted 120 00:09:14,716 --> 00:09:17,876 Speaker 1: going forward that by twenty twenty five, the cost of 121 00:09:17,916 --> 00:09:34,356 Speaker 1: cybercrime is going to be over ten trillion dollars. Do 122 00:09:34,396 --> 00:09:38,556 Speaker 1: you think that the same people who would commit regular 123 00:09:38,596 --> 00:09:43,076 Speaker 1: crime are the same people who will commit cyber crime? Again, 124 00:09:43,356 --> 00:09:52,396 Speaker 1: it's complicated. You have existing hardcore organized crime groups who 125 00:09:52,876 --> 00:09:58,036 Speaker 1: look at technology as a faster, better, cheaper way of 126 00:09:58,236 --> 00:10:05,356 Speaker 1: conducting regular crime. You then have a group of people 127 00:10:05,756 --> 00:10:12,796 Speaker 1: who are not career criminals but sort of get involved 128 00:10:12,836 --> 00:10:19,596 Speaker 1: in using technology to engage in sort of entry level crime. 129 00:10:20,676 --> 00:10:23,836 Speaker 1: Because we have a whole generation that have grown up 130 00:10:23,876 --> 00:10:30,076 Speaker 1: as virtual shoplifters. So they've been pirating music, you know, 131 00:10:30,756 --> 00:10:34,516 Speaker 1: like nineteen eleven, Then they are pirating movies. By time 132 00:10:34,516 --> 00:10:39,276 Speaker 1: they're in college, they're pirating crack software. So for that cohort, 133 00:10:39,396 --> 00:10:45,316 Speaker 1: a line between right and wrong becomes a little blurred. Yes, 134 00:10:45,636 --> 00:10:50,676 Speaker 1: and you're a problem with your finances and somebody says, look, 135 00:10:50,716 --> 00:10:55,076 Speaker 1: there's this great scheme whereby you can sign up to 136 00:10:55,316 --> 00:10:59,916 Speaker 1: be some sort of logistics person for a corporation. All 137 00:10:59,916 --> 00:11:01,556 Speaker 1: you've got to do is open a bank account. They 138 00:11:01,636 --> 00:11:03,836 Speaker 1: put ten thousand dollars in. Then you just have to 139 00:11:03,876 --> 00:11:05,996 Speaker 1: transfer it on somewhere else and you get to keep 140 00:11:06,476 --> 00:11:10,076 Speaker 1: a thousand dollars And you might, oh, there feels like 141 00:11:10,116 --> 00:11:12,796 Speaker 1: there's something real wrong with that, but it's a fast 142 00:11:12,836 --> 00:11:14,356 Speaker 1: way to make money, and I need to pay my 143 00:11:14,436 --> 00:11:19,356 Speaker 1: rent to be clear. You know, that's money laundering. It's 144 00:11:19,396 --> 00:11:23,556 Speaker 1: a crime. So I think there's that cohort growing up 145 00:11:23,596 --> 00:11:27,356 Speaker 1: where the boundaries are blurred, and that's where we've really 146 00:11:27,396 --> 00:11:31,476 Speaker 1: got to educate. And then I think you've got another 147 00:11:31,556 --> 00:11:36,876 Speaker 1: cohort who are young entrepreneurs, but they're cybercriminal entrepreneurs. This 148 00:11:36,996 --> 00:11:41,676 Speaker 1: is a career path. And then you also have activists. 149 00:11:41,716 --> 00:11:47,356 Speaker 1: You've activists, you have state sponsored and state condoned actors. 150 00:11:48,596 --> 00:11:51,236 Speaker 1: You know, there's a there is a wide range of 151 00:11:51,276 --> 00:11:57,956 Speaker 1: people engaging in harmful and criminal behavior in cyberspace. What's 152 00:11:57,956 --> 00:12:00,396 Speaker 1: the next step? What do we do? What happens in 153 00:12:00,476 --> 00:12:03,996 Speaker 1: cyberspace impacts on the real world. What happens in the 154 00:12:04,036 --> 00:12:08,636 Speaker 1: real world impacts on cyberspace, so this is continuous relationship 155 00:12:08,716 --> 00:12:12,076 Speaker 1: between the two. I think the first thing is that 156 00:12:12,116 --> 00:12:19,356 Speaker 1: we've got to really think about governance and policing in cyberspace. 157 00:12:20,036 --> 00:12:22,356 Speaker 1: And what we see from a law enforcement point of 158 00:12:22,436 --> 00:12:26,476 Speaker 1: view is that law enforcement started in the real world, 159 00:12:27,476 --> 00:12:32,756 Speaker 1: and as technology has evolved, law enforcement has tried to 160 00:12:32,916 --> 00:12:36,916 Speaker 1: evolve to keep up with technology. But that presents a 161 00:12:36,956 --> 00:12:41,516 Speaker 1: lot of challenges. For example, the encryption debate. You remember 162 00:12:41,556 --> 00:12:45,196 Speaker 1: all that the Apple you know, hack me if you can. Yeah, 163 00:12:45,396 --> 00:12:48,996 Speaker 1: law enforcement wanted Apple to hand them encrypted data, and 164 00:12:49,036 --> 00:12:51,196 Speaker 1: Apple refused to do it because they said, this is 165 00:12:51,196 --> 00:12:53,436 Speaker 1: our thing. It's encrypted. If you want to hack it, 166 00:12:53,476 --> 00:12:54,556 Speaker 1: you can get it, but we're not just going to 167 00:12:54,636 --> 00:12:57,196 Speaker 1: hand you encrypted data from our customers. There was all 168 00:12:57,196 --> 00:13:01,156 Speaker 1: sorts of issues about that, about backdoors, about encryption, but 169 00:13:01,316 --> 00:13:05,076 Speaker 1: these are really important issues to talk about as a 170 00:13:05,156 --> 00:13:11,996 Speaker 1: society because we want law enforcement to deliver on safety 171 00:13:12,036 --> 00:13:16,356 Speaker 1: and security in the real world. How are they going 172 00:13:16,396 --> 00:13:21,716 Speaker 1: to deliver on safety and security in cyberspace when there 173 00:13:21,916 --> 00:13:27,116 Speaker 1: exists in crypto domains that are effectively operating beyond the law. 174 00:13:28,036 --> 00:13:30,756 Speaker 1: And if we accept as a relationship between the two, 175 00:13:31,596 --> 00:13:35,476 Speaker 1: then it's going to continue to be more and more 176 00:13:35,556 --> 00:13:39,636 Speaker 1: complicated going forward, so you know, we have to be 177 00:13:39,676 --> 00:13:43,236 Speaker 1: involved have a voice in the governance of this space, 178 00:13:43,436 --> 00:13:45,236 Speaker 1: just the way we have a voice in the governance 179 00:13:45,276 --> 00:13:48,436 Speaker 1: of the real world. I am listening to you talk 180 00:13:48,476 --> 00:13:53,076 Speaker 1: about policing and in and I think that there definitely 181 00:13:53,196 --> 00:13:58,396 Speaker 1: is a way to regulate, especially criminal activity online. I 182 00:13:58,476 --> 00:14:00,876 Speaker 1: was a victim of a cyber crime, and it occurred 183 00:14:00,916 --> 00:14:02,516 Speaker 1: to me that there is really no way that I 184 00:14:02,516 --> 00:14:06,076 Speaker 1: could ever catch this person or or chase them down 185 00:14:06,556 --> 00:14:09,636 Speaker 1: based on what had happened. So it was, and it 186 00:14:09,716 --> 00:14:11,796 Speaker 1: was it felt I felt pretty helpless at the time. 187 00:14:12,316 --> 00:14:14,356 Speaker 1: I will say also, I was a victim of a 188 00:14:14,356 --> 00:14:17,076 Speaker 1: real crime in which my car was broken into and 189 00:14:17,156 --> 00:14:21,076 Speaker 1: my bag was stolen, and the police were not very 190 00:14:21,156 --> 00:14:22,796 Speaker 1: much help in that case either. I do there was 191 00:14:22,836 --> 00:14:24,356 Speaker 1: no way they're going to be able to catch this 192 00:14:24,396 --> 00:14:26,276 Speaker 1: person and chased it down. I felt the same in 193 00:14:26,356 --> 00:14:31,556 Speaker 1: both and both scenarios. The other part of this is historically, 194 00:14:31,636 --> 00:14:36,756 Speaker 1: for some marginalized groups, policing has been a problematic conversation, 195 00:14:37,236 --> 00:14:39,476 Speaker 1: and so even when we're talking about it now, there's 196 00:14:39,476 --> 00:14:42,316 Speaker 1: a part of me that's like, I don't know who 197 00:14:42,356 --> 00:14:47,356 Speaker 1: I want regulating this online, especially when you know historically 198 00:14:47,356 --> 00:14:52,036 Speaker 1: there has been you know, racism, misogyny, homophobia, all those 199 00:14:52,076 --> 00:14:56,716 Speaker 1: things involved in policing also taking part in defining what 200 00:14:56,796 --> 00:15:01,436 Speaker 1: crime is, which is a whole other conversation. So how 201 00:15:01,436 --> 00:15:06,556 Speaker 1: do we regulate at actually catch criminals, catch cyber criminals 202 00:15:06,876 --> 00:15:11,236 Speaker 1: without also overcorrecting in a way that continues to oppress 203 00:15:11,276 --> 00:15:16,836 Speaker 1: the marginalized groups that continually feel oppressed by unjust policing. Ronald, 204 00:15:16,916 --> 00:15:19,316 Speaker 1: You're right about policing and racism and all the stuff 205 00:15:19,316 --> 00:15:22,476 Speaker 1: that's going down. So I'm trying not to be prescriptive there. 206 00:15:23,196 --> 00:15:25,596 Speaker 1: And you don't want a non national telling Americans had 207 00:15:25,676 --> 00:15:28,996 Speaker 1: to govern themselves either. I'm sensitive to that. So I 208 00:15:29,036 --> 00:15:32,116 Speaker 1: think that that's why we need to have the conversation. 209 00:15:32,676 --> 00:15:36,636 Speaker 1: And the conversation might be we don't need any police 210 00:15:36,676 --> 00:15:39,356 Speaker 1: on the internet. That might be if we want to 211 00:15:39,396 --> 00:15:42,236 Speaker 1: have a conversation, then everything should be on the table. 212 00:15:42,676 --> 00:15:46,116 Speaker 1: For example, we could say, well, how about the companies 213 00:15:46,156 --> 00:15:50,716 Speaker 1: who profit in this space? How about the police are governed. 214 00:15:50,796 --> 00:15:53,556 Speaker 1: Let's not use the word police, let's say governed cyberspace. 215 00:15:54,156 --> 00:15:59,596 Speaker 1: Because this is the problem. You have huge corporations that 216 00:15:59,916 --> 00:16:03,436 Speaker 1: ultimately lie under the radar and may have aspirations of 217 00:16:03,516 --> 00:16:10,836 Speaker 1: statehood operating in cyberspace, and law enforcement thinly stretched resource 218 00:16:11,476 --> 00:16:14,556 Speaker 1: trying to clean up, you know, as they go along. 219 00:16:15,156 --> 00:16:18,356 Speaker 1: And what's happening in countries like the UK. I work 220 00:16:18,516 --> 00:16:23,116 Speaker 1: closely with government there, And we have a new piece 221 00:16:23,156 --> 00:16:27,796 Speaker 1: of legislation coming through called the Online Safety Bill, and 222 00:16:27,836 --> 00:16:31,916 Speaker 1: it's going to force a duty of care for those 223 00:16:31,956 --> 00:16:35,276 Speaker 1: corporations to profit in cyberspace. So let's take crimes like 224 00:16:35,356 --> 00:16:40,756 Speaker 1: cyberbulling or harassment or what is described as revenge porn, 225 00:16:41,036 --> 00:16:45,116 Speaker 1: and let's make these companies responsible for cleaning that up. 226 00:16:45,676 --> 00:16:50,236 Speaker 1: Then let's take mists and disinformation. And while that's not 227 00:16:50,396 --> 00:16:55,236 Speaker 1: criminal activity per se, it can certainly lead to racist attacks, 228 00:16:55,236 --> 00:16:57,156 Speaker 1: and it can lead to all sorts of threats, and 229 00:16:57,196 --> 00:16:59,956 Speaker 1: it can hate speech, can lead to when you know, 230 00:17:00,036 --> 00:17:02,356 Speaker 1: this is a broad spectrum of what we describe as 231 00:17:02,396 --> 00:17:06,996 Speaker 1: online harm. But are these issues policing issues? Are are 232 00:17:07,076 --> 00:17:12,956 Speaker 1: these civil society issues? And let's think about, for example, 233 00:17:13,556 --> 00:17:17,876 Speaker 1: child pornography. If you have a young person who's sexually curious, 234 00:17:17,916 --> 00:17:20,636 Speaker 1: then they're eleven or twelve or thirteen, and they take 235 00:17:20,636 --> 00:17:23,076 Speaker 1: an image and they send it to their boyfriend, or 236 00:17:23,116 --> 00:17:26,996 Speaker 1: girlfriend who's also thirteen or fourteen. If you've generated an 237 00:17:27,036 --> 00:17:30,996 Speaker 1: image and it's explicit and you are under age, then 238 00:17:31,116 --> 00:17:35,596 Speaker 1: de facto you are generating and distributing child pornography, albeit 239 00:17:35,676 --> 00:17:40,916 Speaker 1: of yourself. That doesn't make sense to criminalize that behavior. 240 00:17:41,516 --> 00:17:44,156 Speaker 1: So let's take all of that behavior and think is 241 00:17:44,156 --> 00:17:47,356 Speaker 1: this a police issue or is this an issue that 242 00:17:47,436 --> 00:17:50,316 Speaker 1: needs to be dealt with separately? And then if you 243 00:17:50,356 --> 00:17:52,476 Speaker 1: look at youth hackers, you know, if you've got a 244 00:17:52,516 --> 00:17:56,836 Speaker 1: tech talented youth upstairs in the bedroom of their parents home, 245 00:17:57,356 --> 00:18:00,756 Speaker 1: and if that kid becomes curious and starts probing around 246 00:18:00,756 --> 00:18:05,596 Speaker 1: the edges of a network and then breaches accidentally or 247 00:18:05,636 --> 00:18:10,236 Speaker 1: through curiosity, is that child a hacker or is that 248 00:18:10,356 --> 00:18:14,076 Speaker 1: somebody who needs to be educated? You know, if we 249 00:18:14,156 --> 00:18:19,676 Speaker 1: can't identify tech talent and young people, how can we 250 00:18:19,756 --> 00:18:24,356 Speaker 1: stage interventions. We have IQ, we have EQ, we have CQ, 251 00:18:24,796 --> 00:18:29,356 Speaker 1: we have no TQ, no technology quotient, So we can't 252 00:18:29,436 --> 00:18:33,436 Speaker 1: screen from them. We can't identify. Then, we can't educate them. 253 00:18:33,436 --> 00:18:36,516 Speaker 1: We can't stage intervention. But what we can do is 254 00:18:36,516 --> 00:18:40,716 Speaker 1: when the fourteen or fifteen is prosecute them. It sounds 255 00:18:40,756 --> 00:18:43,516 Speaker 1: like you're saying that there's multiple ways that we need 256 00:18:43,556 --> 00:18:47,436 Speaker 1: to examine the behavior that's happening online. And then we 257 00:18:47,476 --> 00:18:51,876 Speaker 1: need to also define what criminal activity is and who 258 00:18:51,916 --> 00:18:55,196 Speaker 1: can be criminals online, and then three, we need to 259 00:18:55,236 --> 00:18:58,516 Speaker 1: regulate it. We then need to regulate that behavior. Am 260 00:18:58,516 --> 00:19:02,156 Speaker 1: I mischaracterizing that as being a solution? No? I think 261 00:19:02,156 --> 00:19:05,956 Speaker 1: that's fair. And we have a chance here to renegotiate 262 00:19:05,996 --> 00:19:10,276 Speaker 1: the social contract that has existed for thousands of years 263 00:19:10,356 --> 00:19:12,956 Speaker 1: and more recently in the US. I'm Europeans, so I 264 00:19:12,956 --> 00:19:19,636 Speaker 1: can say thousands, okay, but the social contract we can 265 00:19:19,876 --> 00:19:24,436 Speaker 1: talk about that. We can say, right, let's take online harms, 266 00:19:24,516 --> 00:19:29,556 Speaker 1: this range of undesirable behaviors, harmful behaviors, in some cases 267 00:19:29,556 --> 00:19:33,276 Speaker 1: criminal behaviors. Well, how about we make Facebook or Twitter 268 00:19:33,716 --> 00:19:38,356 Speaker 1: or Instagram responsible for that and say, guys, you profit 269 00:19:38,476 --> 00:19:41,876 Speaker 1: in this space, and in fact, many of your technologies 270 00:19:41,956 --> 00:19:46,116 Speaker 1: exacerbate these problems, So you go figure and go deal 271 00:19:46,156 --> 00:19:49,436 Speaker 1: with that. Then let's take young people and what they do, 272 00:19:49,556 --> 00:19:54,916 Speaker 1: what we describe as juvenile cyber delinquency pathways into cybercrime, 273 00:19:54,916 --> 00:19:58,556 Speaker 1: and let's deal with them separately and not criminalize young 274 00:19:58,596 --> 00:20:01,636 Speaker 1: people who are tech curious, who don't have parents who 275 00:20:01,676 --> 00:20:04,076 Speaker 1: can teach them who don't have teachers who are as 276 00:20:04,156 --> 00:20:08,476 Speaker 1: knowledgeable about technologies they are, and let's deal with them separately. 277 00:20:09,276 --> 00:20:14,956 Speaker 1: And then let's look at technology solutions to technology facilitated 278 00:20:15,036 --> 00:20:18,876 Speaker 1: problem behaviors, because we can't solve this with human intervention. 279 00:20:19,076 --> 00:20:23,076 Speaker 1: We're going to need AI artificial intelligence and mL machine 280 00:20:23,156 --> 00:20:28,596 Speaker 1: learning solutions because there's just too much stuff happening. But 281 00:20:28,716 --> 00:20:32,396 Speaker 1: we have to be able to quip law enforcement to 282 00:20:32,396 --> 00:20:38,316 Speaker 1: carry out investigations, to actually deal with issues around encryption, 283 00:20:39,316 --> 00:20:43,916 Speaker 1: to deal with issues around privacy and surveillance. And when 284 00:20:43,916 --> 00:20:47,076 Speaker 1: I talk to people about surveillance, they get really upset 285 00:20:47,116 --> 00:20:49,276 Speaker 1: about this, and they're like, I don't want any government 286 00:20:49,796 --> 00:20:54,436 Speaker 1: or any law enforcement agency practicing surveillance because I don't 287 00:20:54,436 --> 00:20:59,316 Speaker 1: want to be surveilled. But you are being surveilled by 288 00:20:59,396 --> 00:21:03,636 Speaker 1: social technology companies. You are offering everything up. They can 289 00:21:03,636 --> 00:21:06,916 Speaker 1: practically predict what color socks you're going to wear tomorrow. 290 00:21:07,436 --> 00:21:11,516 Speaker 1: It's just surveillance buy a different entity by people who 291 00:21:11,556 --> 00:21:14,196 Speaker 1: are not elected, by people who don't have a duty 292 00:21:14,196 --> 00:21:17,196 Speaker 1: of care, who don't have a mandate. Are you Are 293 00:21:17,196 --> 00:21:20,076 Speaker 1: you optimistic that this is going to be solved? Because 294 00:21:20,156 --> 00:21:23,316 Speaker 1: I hear you talking through a lot of theories. Are 295 00:21:23,356 --> 00:21:29,756 Speaker 1: you optimistic about the actionable steps? I am increasingly optimistic. 296 00:21:29,956 --> 00:21:31,996 Speaker 1: If you'd asked me that ten years ago, I would 297 00:21:31,996 --> 00:21:37,756 Speaker 1: have said no. I'm increasingly optimistic for a couple of reasons. One, 298 00:21:37,996 --> 00:21:42,836 Speaker 1: I understand cyber behavioral science. Secondly, are work closely with 299 00:21:42,916 --> 00:21:48,676 Speaker 1: law enforcement, with policy makers, and I'm solutions focused. And thirdly, 300 00:21:49,596 --> 00:21:53,556 Speaker 1: class and group actions. This is the money piece. We've 301 00:21:53,556 --> 00:21:58,236 Speaker 1: been here before cigarettes asbest us. There is going to 302 00:21:58,236 --> 00:22:02,516 Speaker 1: come a point when the social technology companies who are 303 00:22:02,556 --> 00:22:07,796 Speaker 1: responsible for some of these harms are going to have 304 00:22:08,036 --> 00:22:11,476 Speaker 1: to do better. And they won't do better because we 305 00:22:11,556 --> 00:22:14,156 Speaker 1: tell them too, And they won't do better because the 306 00:22:14,236 --> 00:22:17,636 Speaker 1: government asked them to do better. They will do better 307 00:22:18,396 --> 00:22:22,356 Speaker 1: when it financially hurts them not to do so. And 308 00:22:22,476 --> 00:22:25,516 Speaker 1: I think that gives people hope, and we always want 309 00:22:25,676 --> 00:22:46,196 Speaker 1: to you know, humans need hope. Doctor Aiken, you talked 310 00:22:46,236 --> 00:22:48,676 Speaker 1: about asking companies that profit in this space to take 311 00:22:48,676 --> 00:22:52,716 Speaker 1: action to regulate themselves. You mentioned Facebook and Twitter and Instagram, 312 00:22:52,716 --> 00:22:55,716 Speaker 1: and I'll add YouTube at four Chad at eight Chad, 313 00:22:56,116 --> 00:22:59,556 Speaker 1: all places where disinformation can flourish. And I have to 314 00:22:59,556 --> 00:23:02,476 Speaker 1: say I'm not so impressed with their self regulating so far. 315 00:23:02,996 --> 00:23:06,476 Speaker 1: I mean when I think about January sixth, the insurrection 316 00:23:06,516 --> 00:23:10,276 Speaker 1: at the Capitol, which happened just earlier this year, I 317 00:23:10,356 --> 00:23:13,596 Speaker 1: get emotional. I'm angry. I'm just like, y'all have to 318 00:23:13,596 --> 00:23:17,276 Speaker 1: be responsible for this disinformation. And I mean that's easy 319 00:23:17,316 --> 00:23:19,636 Speaker 1: for me to say from a soapbox, y'all need to 320 00:23:19,676 --> 00:23:23,036 Speaker 1: regulate this. But how are you feeling about this? As 321 00:23:23,076 --> 00:23:27,196 Speaker 1: an expert in cybercrime and criminal psychology, I think, and 322 00:23:27,236 --> 00:23:29,956 Speaker 1: this is just my opinion, I think they know a 323 00:23:29,996 --> 00:23:33,556 Speaker 1: lot more than they admit too. I think social media 324 00:23:33,596 --> 00:23:36,396 Speaker 1: companies have their finger on the pulse of the Internet. 325 00:23:36,796 --> 00:23:39,156 Speaker 1: I think they know along before any of us when 326 00:23:39,196 --> 00:23:45,516 Speaker 1: something is moving. That said, can they admit that they should? 327 00:23:46,196 --> 00:23:48,996 Speaker 1: And when you talk about the events of Capitol Hill, 328 00:23:49,956 --> 00:23:55,436 Speaker 1: what we saw there was very interesting in terms of cyberpsychology. 329 00:23:55,516 --> 00:24:00,036 Speaker 1: I mean tragic, but interesting because that's the first real 330 00:24:00,076 --> 00:24:07,756 Speaker 1: world example of what happens when the online world facilitates 331 00:24:07,836 --> 00:24:14,316 Speaker 1: the normalization and socialization of fake news, of misinformation syndicates 332 00:24:14,356 --> 00:24:18,996 Speaker 1: to bring people together and creates virtual echo chambers to 333 00:24:19,036 --> 00:24:24,076 Speaker 1: reinforce and normalize and socialize belief systems, and then that 334 00:24:24,196 --> 00:24:28,396 Speaker 1: explodes into the real world with tragic consequences, and I 335 00:24:28,436 --> 00:24:32,316 Speaker 1: think that got the attention of all agencies. In fact, 336 00:24:32,396 --> 00:24:34,396 Speaker 1: the day after it happened, I got a call for 337 00:24:34,516 --> 00:24:38,676 Speaker 1: a senior person in a US agency who said, Mary, 338 00:24:38,676 --> 00:24:41,996 Speaker 1: you stood in front of us five years ago and 339 00:24:42,076 --> 00:24:44,516 Speaker 1: told us this what happened, and it did. And I 340 00:24:44,556 --> 00:24:47,316 Speaker 1: just wanted to say that you were right. So I 341 00:24:47,316 --> 00:24:50,916 Speaker 1: don't want to be right after the fact. I want 342 00:24:51,156 --> 00:24:56,556 Speaker 1: to say this is eminently predictable. This is a very 343 00:24:56,956 --> 00:25:03,436 Speaker 1: very powerful tool technology, the Internet, the connectivity. And people 344 00:25:03,676 --> 00:25:07,996 Speaker 1: ask me about causation, you know, they say, does the 345 00:25:08,036 --> 00:25:14,116 Speaker 1: internet cause bad behavior? Online harms criminal behavior? And there's 346 00:25:14,116 --> 00:25:17,076 Speaker 1: two ways of looking at this. So what we can 347 00:25:17,116 --> 00:25:20,356 Speaker 1: say is the connectivity, how we are connected with each 348 00:25:20,356 --> 00:25:25,156 Speaker 1: other afforded by technology. We can say, yeah, maybe that 349 00:25:25,396 --> 00:25:28,556 Speaker 1: causes bad behavior. Maybe it causes us to do things 350 00:25:28,676 --> 00:25:33,476 Speaker 1: we would normally not have done. Or maybe what it's 351 00:25:33,516 --> 00:25:38,516 Speaker 1: doing is shining a very bright light into the darkest 352 00:25:39,156 --> 00:25:42,756 Speaker 1: reaches of the human psyche what Young called the two 353 00:25:42,836 --> 00:25:47,636 Speaker 1: million year old man or woman. And maybe we're all 354 00:25:47,716 --> 00:25:53,836 Speaker 1: just Game of Thrones underneath it all. Doctor Aked, you 355 00:25:53,836 --> 00:25:56,156 Speaker 1: are blowing my mind. I just I want to end 356 00:25:56,196 --> 00:25:59,916 Speaker 1: on a lighter note. There's a show called CSI Cyber 357 00:26:00,356 --> 00:26:03,596 Speaker 1: where Patricia Arquette plays a character based off of you. 358 00:26:04,476 --> 00:26:08,596 Speaker 1: How does that feel? Incredible? I'm going to write another book, 359 00:26:08,676 --> 00:26:10,316 Speaker 1: and I'm going to write a book about how to 360 00:26:10,316 --> 00:26:17,476 Speaker 1: get ahead in Hollywood without even trying. I have survivors 361 00:26:17,556 --> 00:26:19,516 Speaker 1: guilt for all the authors and the people who pitched 362 00:26:19,516 --> 00:26:21,676 Speaker 1: TV shows, and I know how hard they work. I 363 00:26:21,716 --> 00:26:24,836 Speaker 1: had one one meeting, one meeting, and they commissioned the 364 00:26:24,836 --> 00:26:28,876 Speaker 1: show on the spot. Wow, that's amazing. That was it. 365 00:26:29,356 --> 00:26:33,676 Speaker 1: And I had one meeting with CBS and the head 366 00:26:33,716 --> 00:26:37,916 Speaker 1: of Broadcasting and Entertainment. It was fifteen minutes. It turned 367 00:26:37,956 --> 00:26:40,316 Speaker 1: into three hours. They stood up at the end of 368 00:26:40,316 --> 00:26:45,076 Speaker 1: the meeting. The CBS lead looked left and right and said, 369 00:26:45,076 --> 00:26:47,196 Speaker 1: are we all agreed? And then they looked at me 370 00:26:47,236 --> 00:26:49,436 Speaker 1: and they said, we want to make a TV show 371 00:26:49,796 --> 00:26:53,156 Speaker 1: CSI Cyber, based on you. And I issued the immortal words, 372 00:26:53,236 --> 00:26:58,556 Speaker 1: can I get back to you? CBS called me back 373 00:26:58,556 --> 00:27:01,756 Speaker 1: into the meeting and they said, they said, we're going 374 00:27:01,796 --> 00:27:05,556 Speaker 1: to make you a producer on the show. Hey. I 375 00:27:05,636 --> 00:27:08,676 Speaker 1: didn't know what it meant, though, so I said I'm sorry, 376 00:27:08,516 --> 00:27:11,676 Speaker 1: I can do that, and they said is this a 377 00:27:11,756 --> 00:27:14,676 Speaker 1: negotiation strategy, and I said no, I just don't have 378 00:27:14,756 --> 00:27:17,996 Speaker 1: that sort of money, and they're like, no, no, we 379 00:27:17,996 --> 00:27:22,676 Speaker 1: don't want your money. We want to give you more money. 380 00:27:22,876 --> 00:27:25,196 Speaker 1: I've only ever seen the movie the producers know where 381 00:27:25,196 --> 00:27:27,396 Speaker 1: they were trying to raise money for the show, and 382 00:27:27,516 --> 00:27:29,716 Speaker 1: I just thought they were asking me for money. So 383 00:27:29,916 --> 00:27:32,156 Speaker 1: they tell they tell that story. I was the first 384 00:27:32,156 --> 00:27:34,636 Speaker 1: person they'd ever offered this deal too, and I was like, no, 385 00:27:34,836 --> 00:27:48,436 Speaker 1: thank you, thanks, but no thanks. Doctor Aikin. Before we wrap, 386 00:27:48,476 --> 00:27:50,996 Speaker 1: I want to ask you about what listeners can do 387 00:27:51,076 --> 00:27:53,956 Speaker 1: to get more involved. You've invited them to the conversation, 388 00:27:54,076 --> 00:27:56,676 Speaker 1: but what would that look like. I think we have 389 00:27:56,756 --> 00:28:01,916 Speaker 1: to think about global solutions because cyberspace is a global construct. 390 00:28:02,316 --> 00:28:07,196 Speaker 1: But I think equally we have to be respectful of 391 00:28:07,436 --> 00:28:13,116 Speaker 1: national criteria of cultural differences in different countries who want 392 00:28:13,236 --> 00:28:17,396 Speaker 1: to approach cyberspace in their own way for their own population. 393 00:28:18,316 --> 00:28:21,756 Speaker 1: So I think that you have solutions that are local 394 00:28:22,196 --> 00:28:26,756 Speaker 1: country by country, and then you have agreed solutions in 395 00:28:26,836 --> 00:28:32,076 Speaker 1: shared spaces in cyberspace. We have maritime law for shared waters, 396 00:28:32,116 --> 00:28:37,516 Speaker 1: we have aviation law for the shared airspace. So I 397 00:28:37,516 --> 00:28:39,836 Speaker 1: think they're basic things we can agree on and then 398 00:28:39,876 --> 00:28:43,636 Speaker 1: there's some things that will need to be legislated country 399 00:28:43,716 --> 00:28:47,636 Speaker 1: by country. I would ask listeners to reach out to 400 00:28:47,676 --> 00:28:51,356 Speaker 1: their local legislators, their local politicians. There are a number 401 00:28:51,396 --> 00:28:54,276 Speaker 1: of bills that are being debated at the moment in 402 00:28:54,316 --> 00:28:58,396 Speaker 1: the US, for example, Center Warners Safetech Bill, which will 403 00:28:58,396 --> 00:29:03,636 Speaker 1: address some of these issues. So get involved, become an 404 00:29:03,636 --> 00:29:09,036 Speaker 1: activist in cyberspace, a good activist. One thing that I 405 00:29:09,356 --> 00:29:13,876 Speaker 1: can mention is that for any listener that is now 406 00:29:14,036 --> 00:29:18,116 Speaker 1: fascinated by cyberpsychology and the way that I am, we 407 00:29:18,196 --> 00:29:22,956 Speaker 1: are offering the world's first online Masters at Capital Tech 408 00:29:23,516 --> 00:29:28,996 Speaker 1: and online PhD in cyberpsychology. So if you feel like 409 00:29:29,076 --> 00:29:32,716 Speaker 1: you want to complete your education, reach out to us online. 410 00:29:35,396 --> 00:29:38,796 Speaker 1: Doctor Aikin, this has been a great conversation, very eye opening. 411 00:29:38,796 --> 00:29:40,836 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you, 412 00:29:40,876 --> 00:29:46,396 Speaker 1: Ronald absolutely enjoyed it. Doctor Mary Aiken is a cyberpsychologist 413 00:29:46,436 --> 00:29:50,076 Speaker 1: and chair of the Department of Cyberpsychology at Capital Technology 414 00:29:50,156 --> 00:29:53,316 Speaker 1: University in Laurel, Maryland. You can find links to her 415 00:29:53,356 --> 00:29:56,916 Speaker 1: recent publications about cybercrime and to the degree program she 416 00:29:56,996 --> 00:30:01,356 Speaker 1: mentioned in our show. Notes. Solvable is produced by Jocelyn 417 00:30:01,436 --> 00:30:06,236 Speaker 1: Frank research by David Jack, booking by Lisa Dunn. Our 418 00:30:06,276 --> 00:30:09,956 Speaker 1: managing producer is Sasha Matthias and our exact producer is 419 00:30:09,996 --> 00:30:15,716 Speaker 1: Meil LaBelle. I'm Ronald Young Junior. Thanks for listening. M