Speaker 1: Pushkin.
Speaker 2: The only true strategy we ever have with our kids
Speaker 2: is our relationship with them. Our kids will all get
Speaker 2: to an age and it's all sooner than we think
Speaker 2: where they're basically like, wait, I'm big now, Like you
Speaker 2: literally can't put me in a time out and I
Speaker 2: literally don't give two shits about your stickers, Like seriously,
Speaker 2: that's what they're going to say. And so the only
Speaker 2: thing between us is the quality of our relationship.
Speaker 1: Doctor Becky Kennedy is a clinical psychologist known for her
Speaker 1: parenting advice, and her core message is this, when we
Speaker 1: punish kids for their behavior, they may internalize the feeling
Speaker 1: that they're bad inside and can't change.
Speaker 2: Behavior is not identity, Like there's a good kid, a
Speaker 2: in pain kid, probably a smart kid, a freaking funny
Speaker 2: kid underneath these really difficult behaviors. And I think when
Speaker 2: you start seeing that, you intervene totally differently in a
Speaker 2: way that feels better to the kid and the parent,
Speaker 2: and honestly in a way that also is just much
Speaker 2: more effective for behavior change.
Speaker 1: On today's episode, doctor Becky helps us rethink parenting for
Speaker 1: the benefit of both kids and adults. I'm maya Shunker
Speaker 1: and this is a slight change of plans, a show
Speaker 1: about who we are and who we become in the
Speaker 1: face of a big change. Becky is the founder of
Speaker 1: Good Inside, a company that helps parents navigate the often
Speaker 1: challenging experience of raising kids. Good Inside is also or
Speaker 1: her recommended parenting strategy. She says parents should start with
Speaker 1: the assumption that their kids are good at their core.
Speaker 1: This might sound like a philosophical point, but Becky says
Speaker 1: it's actually a radical shift in mindset that can change
Speaker 1: how parents react when their kids misbehave. What I love
Speaker 1: about Becky's approach is how you can apply it to
Speaker 1: all kinds of relationships. I'm not a parent, but I
Speaker 1: found myself thinking through these strategies and the context of
Speaker 1: my relationships with my coworkers and as an aunt to
Speaker 1: my nephews and nieces. Okay, now onto my conversation with Becky.
Speaker 1: I'd love to rewind the clock to this one day,
Speaker 1: back in twenty fourteen. You are a therapist for parents
Speaker 1: struggling with kids who are misbehaving, screaming, hitting, name calling, you,
Speaker 1: name it. Tell me more, Becky, about what you had
Speaker 1: been taught to recommend to these parents, and then how
Speaker 1: things shifted for you on that one day.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I was seeing parents who had come to
Speaker 2: me hitting like their hit kid was in a hitting stage,
Speaker 2: and also not listening and all these things. And I
Speaker 2: was teaching the parents how to give a time out
Speaker 2: the program I was trained in, which was very esteemed.
Speaker 2: It was kind of like the one to go to
Speaker 2: around us. It was really all about timeouts, punishments, consequences,
Speaker 2: sticker charts, praising. So I was teaching them how to
Speaker 2: give a time out. But as I was talking, I
Speaker 2: had this very uncomfortable feeling in my body. That's the
Speaker 2: only way I can describe it, Like my heart was
Speaker 2: kind of racing. It was loud enough in my body
Speaker 2: that I kind of had to slow down be like,
Speaker 2: what is going on? And probably for the past couple
Speaker 2: months at that point, I'd started becoming a little skeptical
Speaker 2: about this approach, I like the months before, because I
Speaker 2: was like, this is so weird. Everything I know helps
Speaker 2: adults change their lives. It's kind of theoretically at odds
Speaker 2: with everything I'm telling parents to do with kids. I
Speaker 2: don't know. I can't like just didn't make sense to
Speaker 2: me that would be like that. But I was like,
Speaker 2: I don't know, keep going, keep going, And this day,
Speaker 2: the skepticism just reached a breaking point. I just said
Speaker 2: to them, I'm sorry, this is super awkward. I actually
Speaker 2: don't believe anything I'm telling you right now, and I'll
Speaker 2: never forget their look. They were like, wtf you can
Speaker 2: highly recommend it to us, like you don't believe what
Speaker 2: you're telling us? Well, like do you believe something else?
Speaker 2: And I remember being like, I know there's a different way.
Speaker 2: I just I don't know what that is yet, but
Speaker 2: I still kind of right now feel like this isn't it.
Speaker 2: And I don't know. It's kind of like all I've
Speaker 2: got right now, and maybe we can meet in a
Speaker 2: couple of weeks. And they were like, yeah, like just
Speaker 2: give us some money back, like I'm not We're not
Speaker 2: coming back here, which you know, I don't blame them.
Speaker 2: I'd be like, yeah, I don't think so, like this
Speaker 2: is the weirdest session, but in that moment, I was
Speaker 2: just like, this isn't it, and it just it kind
Speaker 2: of like flew out of me.
Speaker 1: There was something that I read about your experience that
Speaker 1: day which really struck me, which is that you noticed
Speaker 1: that you emphasized with these misbehaving kids quite a lot,
Speaker 1: Like you liked.
Speaker 2: That, Yeah, I feel like the kids with the worst
Speaker 2: behavior are the kids in the most pain. You know,
Speaker 2: you're talking about like a four year old or a
Speaker 2: seven year old who's kind of like trying to wave
Speaker 2: a flag the best way they can, which is like, well,
Speaker 2: I know I can get people's attention from hitting or something,
Speaker 2: and I'm so out of control, and I feel like
Speaker 2: they're desperate calls for help. So I think I have
Speaker 2: a lot of empathy with like, oh, this is a
Speaker 2: kid who's in so much need and they're so much pain,
Speaker 2: and then they tend to get the opposite of what
Speaker 2: they're in a very unsophisticated way asking for. And so
Speaker 2: after that session, I was just like, wait, I don't
Speaker 2: think I believe in timeouts, but why, Like, what if
Speaker 2: we just strip back every assumption that we have, what
Speaker 2: are we left with? So here's one assumption. If you
Speaker 2: don't punish a kid's behavior, you're basically telling them that
Speaker 2: the behavior is okay. Parents say this all the time.
Speaker 2: Why Like if I yelled at my husband and he
Speaker 2: was like, WHOA, that's not okay. And also, you must
Speaker 2: be upset. Let's get to the bottom of this. Do
Speaker 2: I think he's approving of my behavior? Like, No, that's absurd.
Speaker 2: So another assumption we often have is our kids are
Speaker 2: kind of deliberately doing things to piss us off, or
Speaker 2: they could do better, and they're not. I don't buy it.
Speaker 2: I just don't buy it. My kid doing something in
Speaker 2: the moment isn't about them giving me a hard time.
Speaker 2: It's probably about them having a hard time. Massive difference,
Speaker 2: And so I feel like I was left with one
Speaker 2: single truth, And the only truth I was left with
Speaker 2: is kids are good inside. Inherently they come into the
Speaker 2: world good inside. And if that was the only thing
Speaker 2: I thought about first, and now I've kind of taken
Speaker 2: away all the floors of this other building, and that's
Speaker 2: my only foundation. What is a brand new building I
Speaker 2: would create from that foundation? Yeah.
Speaker 1: So there's many pragmatic benefits, Becky, to taking this approach
Speaker 1: and shifting your philosophy around the nature of your kids,
Speaker 1: And to me, the most important one is that when
Speaker 1: we assume kids are good inside and we are able
Speaker 1: to separate their behaviors from their identity, it allows us
Speaker 1: to be curious about why they're engaging in bad behavior
Speaker 1: rather than simply trying to shape the behavior or even worse,
Speaker 1: accepting it as fixed. So can you talk a little
Speaker 1: bit more about that curiosity.
Speaker 2: Yes, So everyone listening to this, if you put your
Speaker 2: hands out in front of you and you look at
Speaker 2: just one hand, and we'll say about your kid, but
Speaker 2: it could be about an adult or anyone. Let's say
Speaker 2: it's my son, Like, this is who my son is.
Speaker 2: I'm looking at one hand, this is his identity. And
Speaker 2: then you put your other hand further away so there's space,
Speaker 2: and you look at that hand and you say, this
Speaker 2: is my son's latest bad behavior. It might be he
Speaker 2: hit or he said I hate you, or he lied
Speaker 2: to your face, okay, And then you look at the
Speaker 2: first hand and you're like, this is who he is,
Speaker 2: and the other hand is this is what he did.
Speaker 2: And it's really important to keep those hands separate because
Speaker 2: what we tend to do is, let's say we'll take
Speaker 2: something super triggering for a parent, like I just said
Speaker 2: to my kid, did you just knock down your sister's tower?
Speaker 2: By the way, I just saw him with my own
Speaker 2: eyes knocked down his sister's tower, and he just looks
Speaker 2: at me, He's like, no, okay, So let's say he
Speaker 2: just lied literally to my face. So that's something he did.
Speaker 2: It is so easy, and you'll hear it for the
Speaker 2: hands to collapse, and all of a sudden, that behavior
Speaker 2: becomes your kid, or your kid becomes that behavior. And
Speaker 2: when we do that, we have no curiosity because we're
Speaker 2: really only curious when there's a gap. We're curious because
Speaker 2: we're like, I don't understand this. Why is that? And
Speaker 2: now we can ask a very important question, why what
Speaker 2: my good kid? And I'm looking at my identity hand
Speaker 2: to me, it's my right, and then I'll switch to
Speaker 2: my lap lie to my face, right, and then watch
Speaker 2: how easy it is for them to come together. Oh,
Speaker 2: because he doesn't respect me and he just like thinks
Speaker 2: he can get away with it. And then I'd say
Speaker 2: to a parent in my eyes, wow, wow, that was
Speaker 2: so fast, Like there's no gap anymore. Let's just move
Speaker 2: those away. Okay, that's one interpretation. It's not a useful interpretation.
Speaker 2: There's no more curiosity. So once you have that gap,
Speaker 2: why would my good kid lie to my face?
Speaker 3: Well?
Speaker 2: What I usually say if I don't know is I'll
Speaker 2: say to myself Why would I lie to someone's face,
Speaker 2: even if it was someone I really loved and respected?
Speaker 2: What would happen? I'll say, my husband. I love my husband.
Speaker 2: I respect my husband so much, so why would I
Speaker 2: lie to my husband?
Speaker 1: Why?
Speaker 2: What about you, maya? Why would you lie to their
Speaker 2: face of someone you even really do respect?
Speaker 1: Because I didn't want to hurt their feelings.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't want to hurt their fe feeling secure.
Speaker 1: About the fact that I had made a big mistake
Speaker 1: and I feel really embarrassed about it.
Speaker 2: And I love that one. It's so interesting people think
Speaker 2: when kids that say lie to their face, and they'll
Speaker 2: also say they don't respect me. They'll also say, and
Speaker 2: I've said this throughout my kids too, We're like, well,
Speaker 2: because they're a sociopath. I call that the fast forward,
Speaker 2: or we just like create a whole persona for our
Speaker 2: kids forever based on the behavior. Well, they're just sociopath.
Speaker 2: They have no empathy. The reason kids lie and the
Speaker 2: reasons adults lie often is actually because they feel so
Speaker 2: guilty about the thing they did that they can no
Speaker 2: longer separate that bad behavior from their identity. So if
Speaker 2: lying to someone's face is so bad and lying or
Speaker 2: pushing down someone's tower. Even if pushing down the tower
Speaker 2: is so bad that I then feel like a horrible,
Speaker 2: unlovable person, I will lie to anyone's face all day
Speaker 2: just so I don't have to face the reality of
Speaker 2: what I did. Understanding my kid's behavior does not mean
Speaker 2: I'm approving of my kid's behavior. But if we're curious
Speaker 2: about let's say, lying about pushing down a tower, now
Speaker 2: we can actually get to the core of it. Now
Speaker 2: we can say, okay, so what would my kid need
Speaker 2: in that moment to actually manage how guilty they feel
Speaker 2: and to know I'm a safe person to tell bad
Speaker 2: things to Ooh, Now, all of a sudden, I'm gonna
Speaker 2: make short term and long term change.
Speaker 1: And this, I mean this does to one of the
Speaker 1: second benefits of the good inside approach. It prevents shame
Speaker 1: in kids and it gives them the feeling of being
Speaker 1: empowered with a good self that they can then improve.
Speaker 1: So tell me a bit more about that and what
Speaker 1: we do when we make kids feel like they're actually
Speaker 1: bad kids.
Speaker 2: There's a phrase I think about a lot in psychology literature,
Speaker 2: which is I am as I am seen, And I
Speaker 2: think this really relates to kids development, meaning if as
Speaker 2: a parent you think of yourself as a child's mirror,
Speaker 2: then you are reflecting to them who they are, and
Speaker 2: kids take in the reflection and form how they think
Speaker 2: about themselves and their self concept. This is one of
Speaker 2: my biggest problems with how common it is to just
Speaker 2: send kids away when they're struggling, or punish them, or
Speaker 2: just see them as their behavior. We are trying to
Speaker 2: promote quote good behavior by reinforcing their bad identity. Like again,
Speaker 2: just from a logic perspective, and like, why would that work.
Speaker 2: I'm telling my kid they're a bad kid and expecting
Speaker 2: them to be good, And so so many parents will
Speaker 2: say in the midst of a tantrum, they'll carry them
Speaker 2: out of a room because they're just struggling to stay calm,
Speaker 2: bring them to their room, not to put them there,
Speaker 2: to sit with them there, and they'll say, you're a
Speaker 2: good kid having a hard time. And so many parents
Speaker 2: will say when they they're like, when I said that
Speaker 2: for the first time, it felt powerful to me. I
Speaker 2: watched something happen for my kid. I watched it because
Speaker 2: when they feel like they're a good person having a
Speaker 2: hard time, now all of a sudden, they're in the
Speaker 2: mindset of, oh, yeah, so what could I do? What's
Speaker 2: possible to have less of a hard time. One of
Speaker 2: the things I tend to say in sessions to parents
Speaker 2: is i'd say, look, there's a lot of stuff going on,
Speaker 2: and I promise you I'm actually going to help you
Speaker 2: shift it. But I just want to start by saying,
Speaker 2: I like your kid. I like your kid, and may's
Speaker 2: so interesting. I feel like eighty percent of the time
Speaker 2: when the parents would cry and.
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm gonna cry right now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think it was like probably the first
Speaker 2: time maybe they had heard someone, especially quote a professional
Speaker 2: like say that the teachers always and I don't mean
Speaker 2: to throw teachers under the bus, teachers aren't doing. Everyone's
Speaker 2: doing the best we can in these impossible situations. But
Speaker 2: they would have had teachers who are like, your kid's
Speaker 2: the troublemaker, your kid's getting suspended, or they saw a
Speaker 2: clinician who worked a different way, who'd give them some
Speaker 2: label like your kid is oppositional defiant disorder and you're like, wow,
Speaker 2: like that's not a nice term for my child, okay,
Speaker 2: And starting with like I really like your kid, and
Speaker 2: by the way the behaviors. No, no, totally not Okay,
Speaker 2: we're gonna fix it. But I really like your kid
Speaker 2: really was this manifestation of behavior is not identity. Like
Speaker 2: there's a good kid, a in pain kid, probably a
Speaker 2: smart kid, a freaking funny kid, a really really motivated
Speaker 2: driven kid underneath these really difficult behaviors. And I think
Speaker 2: when you start in seeing that, you intervene totally differently
Speaker 2: in a way that feels better or to the kid
Speaker 2: and the parent, and honestly in a way that also
Speaker 2: is just much more effective for behavior change.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, it's really interesting because when you think
Speaker 1: about little kids, right, their prefrontal cortices are not developed.
Speaker 1: They have a really hard time with self control. You
Speaker 1: could subscribe to the Pavlovian model of things here, which is, Okay,
Speaker 1: you do a bad thing and there's a punishment, and
Speaker 1: so the kid does less of the bad thing. But
Speaker 1: why is it that you think that that's not the
Speaker 1: right way for us to engage with kids.
Speaker 2: So let's say maybe I'm mad that my mom said
Speaker 2: I can of a sleepover came out as I hate you,
Speaker 2: and my mom says, go to your room, and by
Speaker 2: the way, no dessert or no iPhone whatever it is
Speaker 2: for a week. Okay, So you're like, okay, so they
Speaker 2: get a punishment, won't they learn not to do that?
Speaker 2: To me, what a kid really isn'tencoding in their body
Speaker 2: is when I feel mad, that leads to problems in
Speaker 2: my relationship and I don't get the things I want,
Speaker 2: so I will push away mad. Mad is bad. Okay,
Speaker 2: that is not a long term strategy to manage mad,
Speaker 2: because we can't get rid of mad. And so if
Speaker 2: mad by the time I'm twenty five has learned zero skills. Literally,
Speaker 2: I now have the same amount of skills to manage
Speaker 2: anger as I did when I was born, like zero,
Speaker 2: I have developed a system to try to push it away. Okay,
Speaker 2: you know what happens when you push away anger, You
Speaker 2: are literally building the pressure in your body, getting ready
Speaker 2: for a moment where it's going to explode out of you.
Speaker 2: The feelings always win, they explode out of our body.
Speaker 1: They explode, or they're internalized with deep shame.
Speaker 2: Or they're internalized deep shame with health problems we know
Speaker 2: people have, right, I mean, so many things that repressed
Speaker 2: or suppressed or pushed away feelings lead to now I
Speaker 2: want to show the opposite because I think people really
Speaker 2: misunderstand this. And I've never considered good Inside to be
Speaker 2: quote gentle parenting, but people kind of put us in
Speaker 2: that category, so they'll say, oh, so it's just a
Speaker 2: okay that my kid says I hate you. Like, here's
Speaker 2: what an intervention from good inside would not look like
Speaker 2: or sound like, Oh, sweet, you have such big feelings.
Speaker 2: You really want to sleep over? Let that anger out?
Speaker 2: No no, no, no, no, no no no. Here's what
Speaker 2: I'm talking about as like a sturdy intervention. Hey, you're
Speaker 2: really upset that you can't have a sleepover. I get it.
Speaker 2: I also know there's another way you can say that
Speaker 2: to me. And I care about your being disappointed, and
Speaker 2: I'd love to talk that out with you. And we
Speaker 2: can do that when we both take a couple of
Speaker 2: deep breaths and use other language, like I'm actually teaching
Speaker 2: my kid it's okay to be mad. Kids can never
Speaker 2: learn to regulate feelings. We don't allow them to have.
Speaker 2: The only true strategy we ever have with our kids
Speaker 2: is our relationship with them. Our kids will all get
Speaker 2: to an age, and it's all sooner than we think
Speaker 2: where they're basically like wait, I'm big now, Like you
Speaker 2: literally can't put me in a time out and I
Speaker 2: literally don't give two shits about your stickers, Like seriously,
Speaker 2: that's what they're gonna say. And so the only thing
Speaker 2: between us is the quality of our relationship, is how
Speaker 2: connected we are. And I just don't know anyone who
Speaker 2: looks back in their childhood. And it's like, when my
Speaker 2: parents sent me to my room, it was so productive.
Speaker 2: I was just like googling, like how to express my
Speaker 2: anger in a healthy way, and I was kind of
Speaker 2: sitting in my bed being like, it is really true,
Speaker 2: my parent is helping me reflect. No, you know what
Speaker 2: you're doing. You're thinking about how misunderstood you are. You
Speaker 2: are thinking about how mad you are that your iPad
Speaker 2: was just taken away, which literally stops you from thinking
Speaker 2: about the behavior in the first place. You have righteous indignation.
Speaker 2: It is so counterproductive. In reality, it just feels good
Speaker 2: to a parent because you get to vomit your frustration
Speaker 2: onto your kid momentarily, and you have the illusion of
Speaker 2: having an impact because in the moment they look upset
Speaker 2: by your consequence.
Speaker 1: And on that point, I think it's valuable to share
Speaker 1: that you don't see the good inside principles simply applying
Speaker 1: to children. It applies to parents. And this is so
Speaker 1: important because how many friends of mine are crippled by guilt,
Speaker 1: are so frustrated that they aren't the parent they wish
Speaker 1: they were going to be, who get annoyed every time
Speaker 1: they find themselves yelling because they committed to themselves not
Speaker 1: to yell. And so talk to me a bit more
Speaker 1: about how we can avoid shame spirals and all sorts
Speaker 1: of other counterproductive things that parents do when they're all
Speaker 1: just trying their best.
Speaker 2: Yes, it is the exact same thing the approach does
Speaker 2: for parents, right, I mean, it's such a bigger picture conversation.
Speaker 2: But like we are in a messed up system as parents.
Speaker 2: We are not set up for success, like we are
Speaker 2: not given training for this, and no, parenting does not
Speaker 2: come natural. And for women, know, there's not some quote
Speaker 2: maternal instinct that is a concept someone else made up
Speaker 2: to make us feel bad about ours and keep us small.
Speaker 3: Preach, girl, preach, it really is like I love it
Speaker 3: that that And you know, I often think that good
Speaker 3: insight is like a language parents are learning, and really
Speaker 3: the language.
Speaker 2: Of parenting we all speak naturally, is the language we
Speaker 2: were parented in, simply, And if I told you, hey,
Speaker 2: I was brought up speaking English and I really want
Speaker 2: to bring up my kids in Mandarin, I think you
Speaker 2: would tell me, WHOA Okay, Like, first of all, that's amazing,
Speaker 2: that that's going to be challenging. It's definitely possible. But
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure you would also say to me in
Speaker 2: my most high stress moments with my kids, like I'd
Speaker 2: probably revert to English. I just would write like, and
Speaker 2: that doesn't mean my Mandarin isn't coming along. It doesn't
Speaker 2: mean all is lost and I messed up my kids
Speaker 2: forever and now they'll never know Mandarin. We say this
Speaker 2: to ourselves all the time, like I'm trying to connect
Speaker 2: to my kids and I yelled at them and I
Speaker 2: called them a spoiled brad and I mess them up forever. No,
Speaker 2: Like that was a high stress moment you reverted, right,
Speaker 2: I forgot who said this to me. I'm going to
Speaker 2: say too, because it's so powerful, I have to get
Speaker 2: it right. Kind of like in a high stress moments,
Speaker 2: we don't rise to the occasion. We fall to the
Speaker 2: level of our training. And that doesn't mean you're a
Speaker 2: horrible person. Let's take away that shame. Let's stay connected
Speaker 2: to yourself. That whole idea of behavior versus identity. That's
Speaker 2: how I calm myself down after I yell up my kids.
Speaker 2: I say, Becky, I'm a good parent who is having
Speaker 2: a hard time. I am not defined by my latest behavior.
Speaker 2: I'm good inside. I'm good inside. And then you know
Speaker 2: what I do next, because yes, that's my responsibility as
Speaker 2: I go back to skills. What skills do I need?
Speaker 2: Do I have to pay attention to my exhaustion sooner?
Speaker 2: Because if I don't guess what, it explodes as anger
Speaker 2: toward my kid. You know what, I actually haven't worked
Speaker 2: out this week or really seen my friends, And those
Speaker 2: are ways I take care of my non caregiving parts
Speaker 2: of myself, and so I know I need to do
Speaker 2: that so I don't get to my breaking point as soon.
Speaker 2: And it's really that same system applied to ourselves.
Speaker 1: After the break. Becky shares strategies for putting these ideas
Speaker 1: into practice. We'll be back in a moment with a
Speaker 1: slight change of plans. So let's say there's a listener
Speaker 1: out there. This is the first time they're acquainting themselves
Speaker 1: with a good inside approach, and they're like, Okay, Becky,
Speaker 1: I'm committing to this. I need to put this into practice, though, great,
Speaker 1: tell me about this concept of the most generous interpretation.
Speaker 2: So first off, you're listening to this and this is
Speaker 2: a new idea, and you're still listening, and I mean
Speaker 2: this in the bottom of my heart. I hope you
Speaker 2: give yourself credit for the bravery it takes to consider
Speaker 2: something new. It's such a brave thing and you obviously
Speaker 2: know this better than anyone. To even consider taking a
Speaker 2: different path is so vulnerable because we're faced with like, oh,
Speaker 2: did I do it wrong? Did I mess up my kid?
Speaker 1: Forever?
Speaker 2: My answer is no to both questions. And by the way,
Speaker 2: if you take a different path, you'll be like me.
Speaker 2: There'll still be moments you yourself saying go to your room, no,
Speaker 2: I bet for a week and then I'm like, why
Speaker 2: did I say that? I just I don't want to
Speaker 2: say that. Why did I say that? Like we all
Speaker 2: say these things. No one is perfect, definitely not me.
Speaker 2: I do think like you said, this concept of MGI
Speaker 2: most generous interpretation is such a concrete way to start
Speaker 2: thinking in a different way. So really, the simple exercise
Speaker 2: is everybody, right now, think about a behavior in your kid,
Speaker 2: or could be your partner, or your colleague or your
Speaker 2: mother in law, whoever it is that feels like a
Speaker 2: bad behavior and it's kind of something that gets under
Speaker 2: your skin. So maybe I'll say, for my daughter, it's
Speaker 2: screaming at me when she could just say I didn't
Speaker 2: like that, right.
Speaker 1: Screaming colleague of mine who interrupts me in meetings when
Speaker 1: I'm mid.
Speaker 2: Perfect, perfect example, my colleague is always interrupting me. And
Speaker 2: then just ask yourself this screamy.
Speaker 1: I just interrupted you. Sorry to make that point.
Speaker 2: Whoops. So I would say, what is my my most
Speaker 2: generous interpretation of Maya's interrupting me? Right? But what is
Speaker 2: my most generous interpretation of and then fill in the blank,
Speaker 2: what is my most generous interpretation of my daughter continuing
Speaker 2: to jump on the couch after I said, please stop
Speaker 2: jumping on the couch. What is my most generous interpretation
Speaker 2: of my daughter lying to my face? What is my
Speaker 2: most generous interpretation of why my partner came home after
Speaker 2: six pm when we had talked about my partner coming
Speaker 2: home at five thirty pm? And to be clear, when
Speaker 2: you come up with the most generous interpretation, the action
Speaker 2: you take next isn't saying to the other person it's
Speaker 2: fine that you did that. No, What a most generous
Speaker 2: interpretation lens does for you is it always helps you
Speaker 2: see that there is a good person under a bad behavior.
Speaker 2: And what it really does is it helps you think, like, well,
Speaker 2: what was going on for that person, Like what else
Speaker 2: could have been their positive intent even if it wasn't
Speaker 2: acted out in their behavior. And what it does is
Speaker 2: it also helps you intervene from a place of groundedness
Speaker 2: and of seeing the other person as a teammate. Me
Speaker 2: and Maya are on a team against interrupting. Me and
Speaker 2: my husband are on a team against poor communication around
Speaker 2: what time he was going to be home from work.
Speaker 2: Me and my daughter are actually on the same team
Speaker 2: against this hitting problem because the truth is she doesn't
Speaker 2: want to be doing it either, and that changes everything.
Speaker 1: You talk in your book about one of the most
Speaker 1: important tools for parents being the concept of repair. So
Speaker 1: tell me more about rupture and repair and how owning
Speaker 1: this as a parent can actually improve things.
Speaker 2: So a rupture is really any moment in a relationship
Speaker 2: where you feel disconnected, A rupture is me yelling at
Speaker 2: my kid what's wrong with you? Or me calling them
Speaker 2: you know a name, I cannot believe you freak out
Speaker 2: in that toy story. You're such a spoiled brat. A
Speaker 2: rupture can also be my kid wanting to talk to
Speaker 2: me about something and me invalidating it or rushing past it.
Speaker 2: I'm really upset about not making the soccer team. Oh
Speaker 2: you're so dramatic. It's not a big deal. You made
Speaker 2: a basketball team. That could be a rupture too. So
Speaker 2: it's really like a break in your connection with someone,
Speaker 2: and a repair is the process of going back to
Speaker 2: that moment of disconnection, taking responsibility for your part in
Speaker 2: that event, helping the other person understand it in a
Speaker 2: different way, and I think also stating what you would
Speaker 2: do differently the next time. Events in and of themselves
Speaker 2: are not what have a negative impact on kids, and
Speaker 2: so actually this understanding is huge. So an event like
Speaker 2: I just screamed my head off at my kids, now,
Speaker 2: is that an amazing event for a kid? Of course not.
Speaker 2: It's not a great event. But that event isn't having
Speaker 2: the impact on your kids that you think it is.
Speaker 2: What has an impact on a kid and their development
Speaker 2: is how an event gets processed. For them, It's actually
Speaker 2: more about what happens after the event. There's two things
Speaker 2: that can happen. An event is followed by a loneeness
Speaker 2: and nobody ever talks to me about it, and no
Speaker 2: one ever mentions it again. So after an overwhelming event,
Speaker 2: I guess I'm just a five year old trying to
Speaker 2: process this on my own. There's that, or there's the
Speaker 2: same event, and then after, at some point, I have
Speaker 2: a loving, safe, trusted adult who connects with me and
Speaker 2: helps me understand that event and gives me more coherence
Speaker 2: about the event and helps me regulate my feelings through
Speaker 2: that process. Same event, two totally different ways of processing
Speaker 2: it and two completely different outcomes, And the difference is
Speaker 2: actually all about the relationship we have with someone after
Speaker 2: the event.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you have a great quote, which is that repair
Speaker 1: gives a not great chapter a different ending and allows
Speaker 1: for a different lesson to be learned. In this case,
Speaker 1: the not great chapter was yelling at your kid.
Speaker 2: Yes, so a repair for yelling at my son might
Speaker 2: sound like, Hey, earlier today, I screamed at you in
Speaker 2: the kitchen and I'm sorry, and I think I was
Speaker 2: just having a really hard time. I was stressed, and
Speaker 2: that came out as a yell. It wasn't your fault.
Speaker 2: And I'm working on managing my own frustration so even
Speaker 2: when I'm frustrated, it doesn't come out in a yell.
Speaker 2: And if that all seems too complicated, just saying to
Speaker 2: a kid, I'm sorry I yelled, that wasn't your fault.
Speaker 2: I love you is like shorthand, and I'm happy to
Speaker 2: double click on it wasn't your fault because I know
Speaker 2: it's like kind of a complicated thing because.
Speaker 1: Because you're like, it is kind of your fault because
Speaker 1: it is through your dinner all over the room, and yeah,
Speaker 1: that me for whatever. Yeah, so how do you get there?
Speaker 2: Here's how I get there. I was having some set
Speaker 2: of feelings that were bigger than my ability to regulate
Speaker 2: those feelings. That has to do with the event in
Speaker 2: front of me. But honestly, it's the hard truth. My
Speaker 2: regulation skills and patterns predated my son's existence, like they're
Speaker 2: in my body. Like how able am I in general
Speaker 2: to deal with the frustration? How able am I to
Speaker 2: keep myself regulated and grounded when I'm upset? How able
Speaker 2: am I to communicate with someone when I'm frustrated with
Speaker 2: them in a way that's still respectful. Those things have
Speaker 2: to do with me. He didn't quote make me yell.
Speaker 2: An event happened between us. I felt frustrated, and at
Speaker 2: the point the frustration started in my body, it's kind
Speaker 2: of my own skills that relate to how I handle it.
Speaker 2: The more we teach our kids that were blaming them
Speaker 2: for our lack of coping skills or inability to access
Speaker 2: them in the moment, that creates a whole set of
Speaker 2: not so great patterns intergenerationally that I actually don't think
Speaker 2: anyone actually wants to pass on to their kids. Plus
Speaker 2: one last thing, it is the most disempowering thing to me,
Speaker 2: Like when parents say, but if my kid didn't complain
Speaker 2: about dinner, I wouldn't yell. Look, I know yelling doesn't
Speaker 2: feel great to you. It doesn't feel great to anyone.
Speaker 2: So you're saying that you're willing to depend on your
Speaker 2: four year old changing what they say for you to
Speaker 2: behave in a way that's in line with your value.
Speaker 2: Is like, I'm not willing to make that bet. My
Speaker 2: self esteem is way too important to me to leave
Speaker 2: it dependent on my kid. So I think that's another
Speaker 2: perspective on it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's an irony because there's actually just parallel
Speaker 1: processes happening that are very similar to one another, which
Speaker 1: is the kids disappointed with the meal and can't manage
Speaker 1: the big emotions, so they throw their dinner plate in
Speaker 1: food everywhere. The mom or dad can't handle the behaviors
Speaker 1: of the kid, and then they can't regulate themselves. And
Speaker 1: so maybe we can bridge the empathy gap just a
Speaker 1: little bit if we realize the inherent psychological similarities between
Speaker 1: what both parent and child are managing in that moment.
Speaker 2: That's right. So if our kid's disregulated emotion is just
Speaker 2: met with our disregulated emotions, then what they're building in
Speaker 2: their body in terms of their circuits and patterns of
Speaker 2: learning of how the world works is my emotion that
Speaker 2: was too big for me gets layered on top of
Speaker 2: my parent's emotion that was too big for them. Guess what,
Speaker 2: I'm actually making it harder for my kid to learn
Speaker 2: how to regulate their own emotions because of that association.
Speaker 1: What do you say to parents who are afraid that
Speaker 1: is just too late for them to implement your approach?
Speaker 1: So they're thinking, look, this all sounds great, but my
Speaker 1: kid is twenty four, and so I'm pretty sure that
Speaker 1: I miss the window.
Speaker 2: It is never too late. It is never too late.
Speaker 2: Is it going to take effort to re establish a
Speaker 2: connection with your twenty four year old, just like it
Speaker 2: would take effort to learn a new language. But ironically,
Speaker 2: the belief that it's too late is the single biggest
Speaker 2: thing that stops us from change. And then I would say, like,
Speaker 2: what is one thing? What is one thing you can do?
Speaker 2: And to me, when we're trying to establish a closer
Speaker 2: relationship with our kids or anyone, repair is often like
Speaker 2: the best starting point. Have you just imagine your own
Speaker 2: parent calling you like, hey, Like, I've been thinking a
Speaker 2: lot about our relationship and the way I did things,
Speaker 2: and I just I know there were a lot of
Speaker 2: things that felt really bad to you, and I get
Speaker 2: that and you were right to feel that way, and
Speaker 2: I care about you, and I know we can't do
Speaker 2: a complete one eighty right now, but I'm willing to
Speaker 2: listen and I want to do things differently. I just
Speaker 2: don't know one adult who's like, yeah, it's too late,
Speaker 2: like that would do nothing. I know plenty of adults
Speaker 2: who would say, I don't know, I might still have
Speaker 2: my guardup and that wouldn't change everything. I'd say, good Now,
Speaker 2: one conversation should change everything, but it might change one thing,
Speaker 2: or it might change some things. And I think if
Speaker 2: we know that it would have that impact on us. Well,
Speaker 2: our kids are younger than us and they're even more
Speaker 2: open as a result, and I think that's a great
Speaker 2: starting point.
Speaker 1: I think I just have a reflection, which is just
Speaker 1: with all of these tools and all of these techniques,
Speaker 1: parenting is just so fricking hard. And I'm curious if
Speaker 1: you're willing to share, Like when you maybe imagine parenthood
Speaker 1: and what it was going to be like and then
Speaker 1: you experience the reality, what have you found to be
Speaker 1: the most surprising, hard component of being a parent?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think on some level, unconsciously, we think our
Speaker 2: kids are going to heal us. And the truth is
Speaker 2: our kids trigger us, like they trigger us all the time,
Speaker 2: and so in that way, I think what I was
Speaker 2: unprepared for, and I think most people are unprepared for,
Speaker 2: is like parenting is just an exercise and like self development,
Speaker 2: if we're willing to take it on, our kids trigger
Speaker 2: us which really mean, Oh, they bring up a lot
Speaker 2: of unresolved, unprocessed things in us, and am I willing
Speaker 2: to look in and say, okay, like can I use
Speaker 2: those and grow? Because obviously it'll help me grow as
Speaker 2: a parent. Ironically, it'll actually help me grow more as
Speaker 2: a person because these things always kind of lived within me,
Speaker 2: but they just weren't triggered as often.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: I had my first kid and he just temperamentally was
Speaker 2: like a kind of easier kid. I didn't realize that
Speaker 2: I'm at tantrums, but looking back, like he really was
Speaker 2: pretty easy. And I did all these parenting things and
Speaker 2: it's not like he said thank you, mommy, you know,
Speaker 2: but he did kind of like do well when I
Speaker 2: did them. And I remember i'd have these parents in
Speaker 2: my private practice who'd be like, I'm doing the thing
Speaker 2: you're telling me, but my kid a yewlller, it's not changing.
Speaker 2: And in the back of my head I'd be like,
Speaker 2: you're probably not doing it, yeah right, you know, But
Speaker 2: then I'd be like I wouldn't say that to their face.
Speaker 2: And then I had my second kid, and I was like,
Speaker 2: oh my goodness, Like I thought I had this down
Speaker 2: a little bit and all those things those parents were
Speaker 2: saying to me and my practice that's happening now. Yeah, Like,
Speaker 2: oh my goodness, my second, I feel like it's a
Speaker 2: lot more effort on my part to show up the
Speaker 2: way she would need. And also therefore, yeah, like we
Speaker 2: have more rupture moments for sure because of also what
Speaker 2: she triggers in me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what you're sharing with me, Becky is really profound,
Speaker 1: because I think we think of parenting as a phase
Speaker 1: in life where we've accumulated all of this wisdom and
Speaker 1: now it's time to impart that wisdom on these little people, right,
Speaker 1: And I think what you're teaching me in this moment
Speaker 1: is actually what kids do is they hold up a
Speaker 1: mirror to you, and actually it's self learning.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's exactly right. You know. I always
Speaker 2: think about the prologue from Far from the Tree, which
Speaker 2: is this amazing Solomon and I think, you know, his
Speaker 2: first line is there's no such thing as reproduction, and
Speaker 2: I think that says a lot about parenting. We use
Speaker 2: this word reproduction as if we reproduce, and he says
Speaker 2: a child is an act of production. You produce, And
Speaker 2: what he says is parenting is being forever cast into
Speaker 2: a relationship with a stranger and it's so dark, but
Speaker 2: it's so true. And he's like, people don't say it
Speaker 2: that way because no one would have kids. They'd be like,
Speaker 2: I don't know who the stranger is. I don't know
Speaker 2: if I want to live with this kid my whole
Speaker 2: life yet kind of what it is, And you know,
Speaker 2: I think that brings up so much for us, Like
Speaker 2: you learn way more about yourself than you will ever
Speaker 2: teach your child, and that's that's tiring. And I think again,
Speaker 2: it's just very different than like the societal view and
Speaker 2: expectations of parenting. I feel like it's so important to
Speaker 2: like say it how it really is, because hopefully there'll
Speaker 2: be generations who have kids at some point and can
Speaker 2: just say I knew it would be hard.
Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed my
Speaker 1: conversation with doctor Becky, I recommend checking out last week's
Speaker 1: episode with developmental psychologist Alison Gopnik. We talk about how
Speaker 1: children are the best learners we know of in the
Speaker 1: universe and what they can teach us about creativity and
Speaker 1: being more open to taking risks and join me next
Speaker 1: week when I talk with someone who, honestly, I'm kind
Speaker 1: of obsessed with, so Leka Juwad. She's the author of
Speaker 1: the best selling memoir Between Two Kingdoms, and she shares
Speaker 1: her story of being diagnosed with an aggressive form of
Speaker 1: leukemia in her early twenties. We talk about the isolation
Speaker 1: of illness and recovery, why she hates the trope of
Speaker 1: the hero's journey in cancer stories, and the solace in
Speaker 1: finding creativity and community throughout it all. You won't want
Speaker 1: to miss this one. I'll see you next week. A
Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive produced
Speaker 1: by me Maya Shunker. The Slight Change family includes our
Speaker 1: showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, our
Speaker 1: senior producer Trisha Bobida, and our engineer Eric o'wang. Louis
Speaker 1: Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith helped
Speaker 1: arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is a
Speaker 1: production of Pushkin Industries, so a big thanks to everyone there,
Speaker 1: and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee.
Speaker 1: You can follow A Slight Change of Plans on Instagram
Speaker 1: at doctor Maya Schunker. See you next week.
Speaker 2: Like if I was going out to dinner with my
Speaker 2: husband and he was like, get on your shoes by
Speaker 2: the time I count to three, or you don't get
Speaker 2: dessert tonight, and if I said I'm not getting my shoes.
Speaker 2: I just don't know one person who'd say, Becky, like
Speaker 2: I think you have a listening problem. Like I think
Speaker 2: they'd be like, Becky, I think you have a husband problem,
Speaker 2: Like what is that guy's deal