WEBVTT - Dr. Becky: A Game-Changing Strategy for Better Relationships

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin.

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<v Speaker 2>The only true strategy we ever have with our kids

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<v Speaker 2>is our relationship with them. Our kids will all get

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<v Speaker 2>to an age and it's all sooner than we think

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<v Speaker 2>where they're basically like, wait, I'm big now, Like you

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<v Speaker 2>literally can't put me in a time out and I

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<v Speaker 2>literally don't give two shits about your stickers, Like seriously,

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<v Speaker 2>that's what they're going to say. And so the only

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<v Speaker 2>thing between us is the quality of our relationship.

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<v Speaker 1>Doctor Becky Kennedy is a clinical psychologist known for her

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<v Speaker 1>parenting advice, and her core message is this, when we

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<v Speaker 1>punish kids for their behavior, they may internalize the feeling

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<v Speaker 1>that they're bad inside and can't change.

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<v Speaker 2>Behavior is not identity, Like there's a good kid, a

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<v Speaker 2>in pain kid, probably a smart kid, a freaking funny

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<v Speaker 2>kid underneath these really difficult behaviors. And I think when

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<v Speaker 2>you start seeing that, you intervene totally differently in a

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<v Speaker 2>way that feels better to the kid and the parent,

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<v Speaker 2>and honestly in a way that also is just much

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<v Speaker 2>more effective for behavior change.

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<v Speaker 1>On today's episode, doctor Becky helps us rethink parenting for

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<v Speaker 1>the benefit of both kids and adults. I'm maya Shunker

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<v Speaker 1>and this is a slight change of plans, a show

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<v Speaker 1>about who we are and who we become in the

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<v Speaker 1>face of a big change. Becky is the founder of

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<v Speaker 1>Good Inside, a company that helps parents navigate the often

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<v Speaker 1>challenging experience of raising kids. Good Inside is also or

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<v Speaker 1>her recommended parenting strategy. She says parents should start with

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<v Speaker 1>the assumption that their kids are good at their core.

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<v Speaker 1>This might sound like a philosophical point, but Becky says

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<v Speaker 1>it's actually a radical shift in mindset that can change

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<v Speaker 1>how parents react when their kids misbehave. What I love

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<v Speaker 1>about Becky's approach is how you can apply it to

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<v Speaker 1>all kinds of relationships. I'm not a parent, but I

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<v Speaker 1>found myself thinking through these strategies and the context of

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<v Speaker 1>my relationships with my coworkers and as an aunt to

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<v Speaker 1>my nephews and nieces. Okay, now onto my conversation with Becky.

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<v Speaker 1>I'd love to rewind the clock to this one day,

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<v Speaker 1>back in twenty fourteen. You are a therapist for parents

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<v Speaker 1>struggling with kids who are misbehaving, screaming, hitting, name calling, you,

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<v Speaker 1>name it. Tell me more, Becky, about what you had

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<v Speaker 1>been taught to recommend to these parents, and then how

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<v Speaker 1>things shifted for you on that one day.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So I was seeing parents who had come to

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<v Speaker 2>me hitting like their hit kid was in a hitting stage,

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<v Speaker 2>and also not listening and all these things. And I

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<v Speaker 2>was teaching the parents how to give a time out

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<v Speaker 2>the program I was trained in, which was very esteemed.

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<v Speaker 2>It was kind of like the one to go to

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<v Speaker 2>around us. It was really all about timeouts, punishments, consequences,

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<v Speaker 2>sticker charts, praising. So I was teaching them how to

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<v Speaker 2>give a time out. But as I was talking, I

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<v Speaker 2>had this very uncomfortable feeling in my body. That's the

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<v Speaker 2>only way I can describe it, Like my heart was

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<v Speaker 2>kind of racing. It was loud enough in my body

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<v Speaker 2>that I kind of had to slow down be like,

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<v Speaker 2>what is going on? And probably for the past couple

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<v Speaker 2>months at that point, I'd started becoming a little skeptical

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<v Speaker 2>about this approach, I like the months before, because I

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<v Speaker 2>was like, this is so weird. Everything I know helps

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<v Speaker 2>adults change their lives. It's kind of theoretically at odds

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<v Speaker 2>with everything I'm telling parents to do with kids. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know. I can't like just didn't make sense to

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<v Speaker 2>me that would be like that. But I was like,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know, keep going, keep going, And this day,

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<v Speaker 2>the skepticism just reached a breaking point. I just said

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<v Speaker 2>to them, I'm sorry, this is super awkward. I actually

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<v Speaker 2>don't believe anything I'm telling you right now, and I'll

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<v Speaker 2>never forget their look. They were like, wtf you can

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<v Speaker 2>highly recommend it to us, like you don't believe what

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<v Speaker 2>you're telling us? Well, like do you believe something else?

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<v Speaker 2>And I remember being like, I know there's a different way.

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<v Speaker 2>I just I don't know what that is yet, but

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<v Speaker 2>I still kind of right now feel like this isn't it.

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<v Speaker 2>And I don't know. It's kind of like all I've

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<v Speaker 2>got right now, and maybe we can meet in a

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<v Speaker 2>couple of weeks. And they were like, yeah, like just

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<v Speaker 2>give us some money back, like I'm not We're not

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<v Speaker 2>coming back here, which you know, I don't blame them.

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<v Speaker 2>I'd be like, yeah, I don't think so, like this

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<v Speaker 2>is the weirdest session, but in that moment, I was

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<v Speaker 2>just like, this isn't it, and it just it kind

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<v Speaker 2>of like flew out of me.

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<v Speaker 1>There was something that I read about your experience that

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<v Speaker 1>day which really struck me, which is that you noticed

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<v Speaker 1>that you emphasized with these misbehaving kids quite a lot,

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<v Speaker 1>Like you liked.

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<v Speaker 2>That, Yeah, I feel like the kids with the worst

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<v Speaker 2>behavior are the kids in the most pain. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>you're talking about like a four year old or a

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<v Speaker 2>seven year old who's kind of like trying to wave

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<v Speaker 2>a flag the best way they can, which is like, well,

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<v Speaker 2>I know I can get people's attention from hitting or something,

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<v Speaker 2>and I'm so out of control, and I feel like

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<v Speaker 2>they're desperate calls for help. So I think I have

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of empathy with like, oh, this is a

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<v Speaker 2>kid who's in so much need and they're so much pain,

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<v Speaker 2>and then they tend to get the opposite of what

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<v Speaker 2>they're in a very unsophisticated way asking for. And so

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<v Speaker 2>after that session, I was just like, wait, I don't

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<v Speaker 2>think I believe in timeouts, but why, Like, what if

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<v Speaker 2>we just strip back every assumption that we have, what

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<v Speaker 2>are we left with? So here's one assumption. If you

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<v Speaker 2>don't punish a kid's behavior, you're basically telling them that

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<v Speaker 2>the behavior is okay. Parents say this all the time.

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<v Speaker 2>Why Like if I yelled at my husband and he

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<v Speaker 2>was like, WHOA, that's not okay. And also, you must

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<v Speaker 2>be upset. Let's get to the bottom of this. Do

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<v Speaker 2>I think he's approving of my behavior? Like, No, that's absurd.

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<v Speaker 2>So another assumption we often have is our kids are

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<v Speaker 2>kind of deliberately doing things to piss us off, or

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<v Speaker 2>they could do better, and they're not. I don't buy it.

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<v Speaker 2>I just don't buy it. My kid doing something in

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<v Speaker 2>the moment isn't about them giving me a hard time.

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<v Speaker 2>It's probably about them having a hard time. Massive difference,

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<v Speaker 2>And so I feel like I was left with one

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<v Speaker 2>single truth, And the only truth I was left with

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<v Speaker 2>is kids are good inside. Inherently they come into the

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<v Speaker 2>world good inside. And if that was the only thing

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<v Speaker 2>I thought about first, and now I've kind of taken

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<v Speaker 2>away all the floors of this other building, and that's

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<v Speaker 2>my only foundation. What is a brand new building I

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<v Speaker 2>would create from that foundation? Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>So there's many pragmatic benefits, Becky, to taking this approach

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<v Speaker 1>and shifting your philosophy around the nature of your kids,

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<v Speaker 1>And to me, the most important one is that when

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<v Speaker 1>we assume kids are good inside and we are able

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<v Speaker 1>to separate their behaviors from their identity, it allows us

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<v Speaker 1>to be curious about why they're engaging in bad behavior

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<v Speaker 1>rather than simply trying to shape the behavior or even worse,

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<v Speaker 1>accepting it as fixed. So can you talk a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit more about that curiosity.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, So everyone listening to this, if you put your

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<v Speaker 2>hands out in front of you and you look at

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<v Speaker 2>just one hand, and we'll say about your kid, but

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<v Speaker 2>it could be about an adult or anyone. Let's say

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<v Speaker 2>it's my son, Like, this is who my son is.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm looking at one hand, this is his identity. And

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<v Speaker 2>then you put your other hand further away so there's space,

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<v Speaker 2>and you look at that hand and you say, this

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<v Speaker 2>is my son's latest bad behavior. It might be he

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<v Speaker 2>hit or he said I hate you, or he lied

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<v Speaker 2>to your face, okay, And then you look at the

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<v Speaker 2>first hand and you're like, this is who he is,

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<v Speaker 2>and the other hand is this is what he did.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's really important to keep those hands separate because

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<v Speaker 2>what we tend to do is, let's say we'll take

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<v Speaker 2>something super triggering for a parent, like I just said

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<v Speaker 2>to my kid, did you just knock down your sister's tower?

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<v Speaker 2>By the way, I just saw him with my own

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<v Speaker 2>eyes knocked down his sister's tower, and he just looks

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<v Speaker 2>at me, He's like, no, okay, So let's say he

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<v Speaker 2>just lied literally to my face. So that's something he did.

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<v Speaker 2>It is so easy, and you'll hear it for the

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<v Speaker 2>hands to collapse, and all of a sudden, that behavior

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<v Speaker 2>becomes your kid, or your kid becomes that behavior. And

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<v Speaker 2>when we do that, we have no curiosity because we're

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<v Speaker 2>really only curious when there's a gap. We're curious because

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<v Speaker 2>we're like, I don't understand this. Why is that? And

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<v Speaker 2>now we can ask a very important question, why what

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<v Speaker 2>my good kid? And I'm looking at my identity hand

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<v Speaker 2>to me, it's my right, and then I'll switch to

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<v Speaker 2>my lap lie to my face, right, and then watch

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<v Speaker 2>how easy it is for them to come together. Oh,

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<v Speaker 2>because he doesn't respect me and he just like thinks

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<v Speaker 2>he can get away with it. And then I'd say

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<v Speaker 2>to a parent in my eyes, wow, wow, that was

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<v Speaker 2>so fast, Like there's no gap anymore. Let's just move

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<v Speaker 2>those away. Okay, that's one interpretation. It's not a useful interpretation.

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<v Speaker 2>There's no more curiosity. So once you have that gap,

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<v Speaker 2>why would my good kid lie to my face?

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<v Speaker 3>Well?

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<v Speaker 2>What I usually say if I don't know is I'll

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<v Speaker 2>say to myself Why would I lie to someone's face,

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<v Speaker 2>even if it was someone I really loved and respected?

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<v Speaker 2>What would happen? I'll say, my husband. I love my husband.

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<v Speaker 2>I respect my husband so much, so why would I

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<v Speaker 2>lie to my husband?

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<v Speaker 1>Why?

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<v Speaker 2>What about you, maya? Why would you lie to their

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<v Speaker 2>face of someone you even really do respect?

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<v Speaker 1>Because I didn't want to hurt their feelings.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I don't want to hurt their fe feeling secure.

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<v Speaker 1>About the fact that I had made a big mistake

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<v Speaker 1>and I feel really embarrassed about it.

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<v Speaker 2>And I love that one. It's so interesting people think

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<v Speaker 2>when kids that say lie to their face, and they'll

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<v Speaker 2>also say they don't respect me. They'll also say, and

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<v Speaker 2>I've said this throughout my kids too, We're like, well,

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<v Speaker 2>because they're a sociopath. I call that the fast forward,

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<v Speaker 2>or we just like create a whole persona for our

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<v Speaker 2>kids forever based on the behavior. Well, they're just sociopath.

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<v Speaker 2>They have no empathy. The reason kids lie and the

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<v Speaker 2>reasons adults lie often is actually because they feel so

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<v Speaker 2>guilty about the thing they did that they can no

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<v Speaker 2>longer separate that bad behavior from their identity. So if

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<v Speaker 2>lying to someone's face is so bad and lying or

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<v Speaker 2>pushing down someone's tower. Even if pushing down the tower

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<v Speaker 2>is so bad that I then feel like a horrible,

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<v Speaker 2>unlovable person, I will lie to anyone's face all day

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<v Speaker 2>just so I don't have to face the reality of

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<v Speaker 2>what I did. Understanding my kid's behavior does not mean

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<v Speaker 2>I'm approving of my kid's behavior. But if we're curious

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<v Speaker 2>about let's say, lying about pushing down a tower, now

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<v Speaker 2>we can actually get to the core of it. Now

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<v Speaker 2>we can say, okay, so what would my kid need

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<v Speaker 2>in that moment to actually manage how guilty they feel

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<v Speaker 2>and to know I'm a safe person to tell bad

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<v Speaker 2>things to Ooh, Now, all of a sudden, I'm gonna

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<v Speaker 2>make short term and long term change.

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<v Speaker 1>And this, I mean this does to one of the

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<v Speaker 1>second benefits of the good inside approach. It prevents shame

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<v Speaker 1>in kids and it gives them the feeling of being

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<v Speaker 1>empowered with a good self that they can then improve.

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<v Speaker 1>So tell me a bit more about that and what

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<v Speaker 1>we do when we make kids feel like they're actually

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<v Speaker 1>bad kids.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a phrase I think about a lot in psychology literature,

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<v Speaker 2>which is I am as I am seen, And I

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<v Speaker 2>think this really relates to kids development, meaning if as

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<v Speaker 2>a parent you think of yourself as a child's mirror,

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<v Speaker 2>then you are reflecting to them who they are, and

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<v Speaker 2>kids take in the reflection and form how they think

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<v Speaker 2>about themselves and their self concept. This is one of

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<v Speaker 2>my biggest problems with how common it is to just

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<v Speaker 2>send kids away when they're struggling, or punish them, or

0:11:56.596 --> 0:11:59.596
<v Speaker 2>just see them as their behavior. We are trying to

0:11:59.716 --> 0:12:06.516
<v Speaker 2>promote quote good behavior by reinforcing their bad identity. Like again,

0:12:06.596 --> 0:12:08.956
<v Speaker 2>just from a logic perspective, and like, why would that work.

0:12:09.756 --> 0:12:12.276
<v Speaker 2>I'm telling my kid they're a bad kid and expecting

0:12:12.316 --> 0:12:16.836
<v Speaker 2>them to be good, And so so many parents will

0:12:16.836 --> 0:12:19.716
<v Speaker 2>say in the midst of a tantrum, they'll carry them

0:12:19.836 --> 0:12:22.316
<v Speaker 2>out of a room because they're just struggling to stay calm,

0:12:22.716 --> 0:12:24.716
<v Speaker 2>bring them to their room, not to put them there,

0:12:24.796 --> 0:12:28.476
<v Speaker 2>to sit with them there, and they'll say, you're a

0:12:28.516 --> 0:12:31.436
<v Speaker 2>good kid having a hard time. And so many parents

0:12:31.476 --> 0:12:33.396
<v Speaker 2>will say when they they're like, when I said that

0:12:33.436 --> 0:12:35.796
<v Speaker 2>for the first time, it felt powerful to me. I

0:12:35.876 --> 0:12:39.436
<v Speaker 2>watched something happen for my kid. I watched it because

0:12:39.476 --> 0:12:42.156
<v Speaker 2>when they feel like they're a good person having a

0:12:42.196 --> 0:12:44.876
<v Speaker 2>hard time, now all of a sudden, they're in the

0:12:44.916 --> 0:12:49.556
<v Speaker 2>mindset of, oh, yeah, so what could I do? What's

0:12:49.596 --> 0:12:52.516
<v Speaker 2>possible to have less of a hard time. One of

0:12:52.556 --> 0:12:54.396
<v Speaker 2>the things I tend to say in sessions to parents

0:12:54.516 --> 0:12:56.276
<v Speaker 2>is i'd say, look, there's a lot of stuff going on,

0:12:56.316 --> 0:12:58.396
<v Speaker 2>and I promise you I'm actually going to help you

0:12:58.476 --> 0:13:00.236
<v Speaker 2>shift it. But I just want to start by saying,

0:13:02.276 --> 0:13:06.196
<v Speaker 2>I like your kid. I like your kid, and may's

0:13:06.236 --> 0:13:08.436
<v Speaker 2>so interesting. I feel like eighty percent of the time

0:13:08.636 --> 0:13:10.116
<v Speaker 2>when the parents would cry and.

0:13:10.116 --> 0:13:11.676
<v Speaker 1>I feel like I'm gonna cry right now.

0:13:12.236 --> 0:13:14.436
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And I think it was like probably the first

0:13:14.476 --> 0:13:18.516
<v Speaker 2>time maybe they had heard someone, especially quote a professional

0:13:18.636 --> 0:13:21.836
<v Speaker 2>like say that the teachers always and I don't mean

0:13:21.876 --> 0:13:23.876
<v Speaker 2>to throw teachers under the bus, teachers aren't doing. Everyone's

0:13:23.916 --> 0:13:25.876
<v Speaker 2>doing the best we can in these impossible situations. But

0:13:25.876 --> 0:13:28.036
<v Speaker 2>they would have had teachers who are like, your kid's

0:13:28.076 --> 0:13:30.996
<v Speaker 2>the troublemaker, your kid's getting suspended, or they saw a

0:13:31.076 --> 0:13:33.276
<v Speaker 2>clinician who worked a different way, who'd give them some

0:13:33.396 --> 0:13:36.836
<v Speaker 2>label like your kid is oppositional defiant disorder and you're like, wow,

0:13:36.916 --> 0:13:39.596
<v Speaker 2>like that's not a nice term for my child, okay,

0:13:40.076 --> 0:13:43.036
<v Speaker 2>And starting with like I really like your kid, and

0:13:43.156 --> 0:13:45.796
<v Speaker 2>by the way the behaviors. No, no, totally not Okay,

0:13:45.836 --> 0:13:47.796
<v Speaker 2>we're gonna fix it. But I really like your kid

0:13:48.116 --> 0:13:53.276
<v Speaker 2>really was this manifestation of behavior is not identity. Like

0:13:53.356 --> 0:13:56.156
<v Speaker 2>there's a good kid, a in pain kid, probably a

0:13:56.196 --> 0:14:00.916
<v Speaker 2>smart kid, a freaking funny kid, a really really motivated

0:14:01.116 --> 0:14:05.116
<v Speaker 2>driven kid underneath these really difficult behaviors. And I think

0:14:05.156 --> 0:14:08.196
<v Speaker 2>when you start in seeing that, you intervene totally differently

0:14:08.276 --> 0:14:09.596
<v Speaker 2>in a way that feels better or to the kid

0:14:09.596 --> 0:14:12.076
<v Speaker 2>and the parent, and honestly in a way that also

0:14:12.156 --> 0:14:14.516
<v Speaker 2>is just much more effective for behavior change.

0:14:14.876 --> 0:14:17.356
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I mean, it's really interesting because when you think

0:14:17.356 --> 0:14:20.276
<v Speaker 1>about little kids, right, their prefrontal cortices are not developed.

0:14:20.396 --> 0:14:22.716
<v Speaker 1>They have a really hard time with self control. You

0:14:22.756 --> 0:14:26.236
<v Speaker 1>could subscribe to the Pavlovian model of things here, which is, Okay,

0:14:26.636 --> 0:14:29.196
<v Speaker 1>you do a bad thing and there's a punishment, and

0:14:29.236 --> 0:14:31.756
<v Speaker 1>so the kid does less of the bad thing. But

0:14:31.836 --> 0:14:33.756
<v Speaker 1>why is it that you think that that's not the

0:14:33.836 --> 0:14:36.276
<v Speaker 1>right way for us to engage with kids.

0:14:36.596 --> 0:14:39.236
<v Speaker 2>So let's say maybe I'm mad that my mom said

0:14:39.236 --> 0:14:41.356
<v Speaker 2>I can of a sleepover came out as I hate you,

0:14:41.396 --> 0:14:43.516
<v Speaker 2>and my mom says, go to your room, and by

0:14:43.516 --> 0:14:46.876
<v Speaker 2>the way, no dessert or no iPhone whatever it is

0:14:46.916 --> 0:14:49.156
<v Speaker 2>for a week. Okay, So you're like, okay, so they

0:14:49.196 --> 0:14:51.036
<v Speaker 2>get a punishment, won't they learn not to do that?

0:14:51.876 --> 0:14:54.356
<v Speaker 2>To me, what a kid really isn'tencoding in their body

0:14:55.116 --> 0:15:00.556
<v Speaker 2>is when I feel mad, that leads to problems in

0:15:00.596 --> 0:15:03.676
<v Speaker 2>my relationship and I don't get the things I want,

0:15:04.076 --> 0:15:09.036
<v Speaker 2>so I will push away mad. Mad is bad. Okay,

0:15:09.916 --> 0:15:13.676
<v Speaker 2>that is not a long term strategy to manage mad,

0:15:13.756 --> 0:15:16.196
<v Speaker 2>because we can't get rid of mad. And so if

0:15:16.276 --> 0:15:20.916
<v Speaker 2>mad by the time I'm twenty five has learned zero skills. Literally,

0:15:21.276 --> 0:15:23.276
<v Speaker 2>I now have the same amount of skills to manage

0:15:23.356 --> 0:15:25.716
<v Speaker 2>anger as I did when I was born, like zero,

0:15:26.276 --> 0:15:30.716
<v Speaker 2>I have developed a system to try to push it away. Okay,

0:15:31.156 --> 0:15:34.876
<v Speaker 2>you know what happens when you push away anger, You

0:15:34.956 --> 0:15:38.276
<v Speaker 2>are literally building the pressure in your body, getting ready

0:15:38.316 --> 0:15:41.316
<v Speaker 2>for a moment where it's going to explode out of you.

0:15:41.836 --> 0:15:45.436
<v Speaker 2>The feelings always win, they explode out of our body.

0:15:45.516 --> 0:15:48.396
<v Speaker 1>They explode, or they're internalized with deep shame.

0:15:48.636 --> 0:15:51.436
<v Speaker 2>Or they're internalized deep shame with health problems we know

0:15:51.556 --> 0:15:54.836
<v Speaker 2>people have, right, I mean, so many things that repressed

0:15:55.036 --> 0:15:59.036
<v Speaker 2>or suppressed or pushed away feelings lead to now I

0:15:59.076 --> 0:16:01.036
<v Speaker 2>want to show the opposite because I think people really

0:16:01.036 --> 0:16:03.716
<v Speaker 2>misunderstand this. And I've never considered good Inside to be

0:16:03.836 --> 0:16:05.956
<v Speaker 2>quote gentle parenting, but people kind of put us in

0:16:05.956 --> 0:16:08.996
<v Speaker 2>that category, so they'll say, oh, so it's just a

0:16:09.156 --> 0:16:12.276
<v Speaker 2>okay that my kid says I hate you. Like, here's

0:16:12.396 --> 0:16:15.196
<v Speaker 2>what an intervention from good inside would not look like

0:16:15.276 --> 0:16:19.036
<v Speaker 2>or sound like, Oh, sweet, you have such big feelings.

0:16:19.636 --> 0:16:23.036
<v Speaker 2>You really want to sleep over? Let that anger out?

0:16:23.236 --> 0:16:26.636
<v Speaker 2>No no, no, no, no, no no no. Here's what

0:16:26.716 --> 0:16:30.916
<v Speaker 2>I'm talking about as like a sturdy intervention. Hey, you're

0:16:30.956 --> 0:16:34.036
<v Speaker 2>really upset that you can't have a sleepover. I get it.

0:16:34.396 --> 0:16:37.076
<v Speaker 2>I also know there's another way you can say that

0:16:37.116 --> 0:16:39.956
<v Speaker 2>to me. And I care about your being disappointed, and

0:16:40.036 --> 0:16:42.596
<v Speaker 2>I'd love to talk that out with you. And we

0:16:42.676 --> 0:16:44.596
<v Speaker 2>can do that when we both take a couple of

0:16:44.636 --> 0:16:48.116
<v Speaker 2>deep breaths and use other language, like I'm actually teaching

0:16:48.196 --> 0:16:51.596
<v Speaker 2>my kid it's okay to be mad. Kids can never

0:16:51.716 --> 0:16:55.156
<v Speaker 2>learn to regulate feelings. We don't allow them to have.

0:16:55.916 --> 0:16:58.116
<v Speaker 2>The only true strategy we ever have with our kids

0:16:58.196 --> 0:17:00.476
<v Speaker 2>is our relationship with them. Our kids will all get

0:17:00.476 --> 0:17:02.156
<v Speaker 2>to an age, and it's all sooner than we think

0:17:02.356 --> 0:17:06.636
<v Speaker 2>where they're basically like wait, I'm big now, Like you

0:17:06.756 --> 0:17:09.556
<v Speaker 2>literally can't put me in a time out and I

0:17:09.636 --> 0:17:13.116
<v Speaker 2>literally don't give two shits about your stickers, Like seriously,

0:17:13.156 --> 0:17:17.036
<v Speaker 2>that's what they're gonna say. And so the only thing

0:17:17.316 --> 0:17:21.436
<v Speaker 2>between us is the quality of our relationship, is how

0:17:21.436 --> 0:17:23.796
<v Speaker 2>connected we are. And I just don't know anyone who

0:17:23.796 --> 0:17:25.996
<v Speaker 2>looks back in their childhood. And it's like, when my

0:17:26.116 --> 0:17:29.156
<v Speaker 2>parents sent me to my room, it was so productive.

0:17:29.196 --> 0:17:31.716
<v Speaker 2>I was just like googling, like how to express my

0:17:31.756 --> 0:17:33.716
<v Speaker 2>anger in a healthy way, and I was kind of

0:17:33.756 --> 0:17:36.116
<v Speaker 2>sitting in my bed being like, it is really true,

0:17:36.596 --> 0:17:39.316
<v Speaker 2>my parent is helping me reflect. No, you know what

0:17:39.356 --> 0:17:43.236
<v Speaker 2>you're doing. You're thinking about how misunderstood you are. You

0:17:43.316 --> 0:17:45.716
<v Speaker 2>are thinking about how mad you are that your iPad

0:17:45.756 --> 0:17:49.556
<v Speaker 2>was just taken away, which literally stops you from thinking

0:17:49.596 --> 0:17:53.756
<v Speaker 2>about the behavior in the first place. You have righteous indignation.

0:17:54.276 --> 0:17:58.716
<v Speaker 2>It is so counterproductive. In reality, it just feels good

0:17:58.716 --> 0:18:01.636
<v Speaker 2>to a parent because you get to vomit your frustration

0:18:02.116 --> 0:18:06.796
<v Speaker 2>onto your kid momentarily, and you have the illusion of

0:18:06.876 --> 0:18:09.916
<v Speaker 2>having an impact because in the moment they look upset

0:18:09.996 --> 0:18:10.876
<v Speaker 2>by your consequence.

0:18:11.276 --> 0:18:14.076
<v Speaker 1>And on that point, I think it's valuable to share

0:18:14.116 --> 0:18:17.716
<v Speaker 1>that you don't see the good inside principles simply applying

0:18:17.716 --> 0:18:21.196
<v Speaker 1>to children. It applies to parents. And this is so

0:18:21.356 --> 0:18:25.396
<v Speaker 1>important because how many friends of mine are crippled by guilt,

0:18:25.756 --> 0:18:28.476
<v Speaker 1>are so frustrated that they aren't the parent they wish

0:18:28.556 --> 0:18:30.956
<v Speaker 1>they were going to be, who get annoyed every time

0:18:31.076 --> 0:18:33.876
<v Speaker 1>they find themselves yelling because they committed to themselves not

0:18:33.916 --> 0:18:35.796
<v Speaker 1>to yell. And so talk to me a bit more

0:18:35.836 --> 0:18:39.356
<v Speaker 1>about how we can avoid shame spirals and all sorts

0:18:39.356 --> 0:18:42.516
<v Speaker 1>of other counterproductive things that parents do when they're all

0:18:42.516 --> 0:18:43.316
<v Speaker 1>just trying their best.

0:18:43.916 --> 0:18:47.516
<v Speaker 2>Yes, it is the exact same thing the approach does

0:18:47.556 --> 0:18:52.836
<v Speaker 2>for parents, right, I mean, it's such a bigger picture conversation.

0:18:53.036 --> 0:18:55.916
<v Speaker 2>But like we are in a messed up system as parents.

0:18:56.116 --> 0:18:59.596
<v Speaker 2>We are not set up for success, like we are

0:18:59.636 --> 0:19:02.956
<v Speaker 2>not given training for this, and no, parenting does not

0:19:02.996 --> 0:19:05.236
<v Speaker 2>come natural. And for women, know, there's not some quote

0:19:05.236 --> 0:19:08.036
<v Speaker 2>maternal instinct that is a concept someone else made up

0:19:08.076 --> 0:19:10.436
<v Speaker 2>to make us feel bad about ours and keep us small.

0:19:10.556 --> 0:19:14.356
<v Speaker 3>Preach, girl, preach, it really is like I love it

0:19:14.836 --> 0:19:18.756
<v Speaker 3>that that And you know, I often think that good

0:19:18.756 --> 0:19:21.476
<v Speaker 3>insight is like a language parents are learning, and really

0:19:21.516 --> 0:19:22.596
<v Speaker 3>the language.

0:19:22.156 --> 0:19:26.036
<v Speaker 2>Of parenting we all speak naturally, is the language we

0:19:26.036 --> 0:19:30.156
<v Speaker 2>were parented in, simply, And if I told you, hey,

0:19:30.236 --> 0:19:32.956
<v Speaker 2>I was brought up speaking English and I really want

0:19:32.956 --> 0:19:35.716
<v Speaker 2>to bring up my kids in Mandarin, I think you

0:19:35.716 --> 0:19:38.756
<v Speaker 2>would tell me, WHOA Okay, Like, first of all, that's amazing,

0:19:39.156 --> 0:19:42.676
<v Speaker 2>that that's going to be challenging. It's definitely possible. But

0:19:42.796 --> 0:19:45.316
<v Speaker 2>I'm pretty sure you would also say to me in

0:19:45.356 --> 0:19:48.756
<v Speaker 2>my most high stress moments with my kids, like I'd

0:19:48.756 --> 0:19:51.556
<v Speaker 2>probably revert to English. I just would write like, and

0:19:51.636 --> 0:19:55.076
<v Speaker 2>that doesn't mean my Mandarin isn't coming along. It doesn't

0:19:55.076 --> 0:19:56.836
<v Speaker 2>mean all is lost and I messed up my kids

0:19:56.836 --> 0:19:59.036
<v Speaker 2>forever and now they'll never know Mandarin. We say this

0:19:59.036 --> 0:20:00.716
<v Speaker 2>to ourselves all the time, like I'm trying to connect

0:20:00.716 --> 0:20:02.436
<v Speaker 2>to my kids and I yelled at them and I

0:20:02.436 --> 0:20:05.436
<v Speaker 2>called them a spoiled brad and I mess them up forever. No,

0:20:05.756 --> 0:20:09.436
<v Speaker 2>Like that was a high stress moment you reverted, right,

0:20:09.796 --> 0:20:11.796
<v Speaker 2>I forgot who said this to me. I'm going to

0:20:11.876 --> 0:20:13.796
<v Speaker 2>say too, because it's so powerful, I have to get

0:20:13.836 --> 0:20:16.036
<v Speaker 2>it right. Kind of like in a high stress moments,

0:20:16.036 --> 0:20:18.036
<v Speaker 2>we don't rise to the occasion. We fall to the

0:20:18.116 --> 0:20:21.516
<v Speaker 2>level of our training. And that doesn't mean you're a

0:20:21.516 --> 0:20:25.836
<v Speaker 2>horrible person. Let's take away that shame. Let's stay connected

0:20:25.836 --> 0:20:29.596
<v Speaker 2>to yourself. That whole idea of behavior versus identity. That's

0:20:29.596 --> 0:20:31.516
<v Speaker 2>how I calm myself down after I yell up my kids.

0:20:31.516 --> 0:20:34.196
<v Speaker 2>I say, Becky, I'm a good parent who is having

0:20:34.196 --> 0:20:37.916
<v Speaker 2>a hard time. I am not defined by my latest behavior.

0:20:38.036 --> 0:20:40.596
<v Speaker 2>I'm good inside. I'm good inside. And then you know

0:20:40.636 --> 0:20:42.956
<v Speaker 2>what I do next, because yes, that's my responsibility as

0:20:42.996 --> 0:20:45.636
<v Speaker 2>I go back to skills. What skills do I need?

0:20:46.236 --> 0:20:48.636
<v Speaker 2>Do I have to pay attention to my exhaustion sooner?

0:20:48.876 --> 0:20:52.076
<v Speaker 2>Because if I don't guess what, it explodes as anger

0:20:52.116 --> 0:20:54.276
<v Speaker 2>toward my kid. You know what, I actually haven't worked

0:20:54.276 --> 0:20:56.756
<v Speaker 2>out this week or really seen my friends, And those

0:20:56.796 --> 0:21:00.396
<v Speaker 2>are ways I take care of my non caregiving parts

0:21:00.396 --> 0:21:02.916
<v Speaker 2>of myself, and so I know I need to do

0:21:02.956 --> 0:21:05.596
<v Speaker 2>that so I don't get to my breaking point as soon.

0:21:06.236 --> 0:21:11.836
<v Speaker 2>And it's really that same system applied to ourselves.

0:21:12.236 --> 0:21:15.636
<v Speaker 1>After the break. Becky shares strategies for putting these ideas

0:21:15.716 --> 0:21:18.556
<v Speaker 1>into practice. We'll be back in a moment with a

0:21:18.596 --> 0:21:28.436
<v Speaker 1>slight change of plans. So let's say there's a listener

0:21:28.476 --> 0:21:30.596
<v Speaker 1>out there. This is the first time they're acquainting themselves

0:21:30.636 --> 0:21:32.796
<v Speaker 1>with a good inside approach, and they're like, Okay, Becky,

0:21:33.316 --> 0:21:37.716
<v Speaker 1>I'm committing to this. I need to put this into practice, though, great,

0:21:38.236 --> 0:21:41.796
<v Speaker 1>tell me about this concept of the most generous interpretation.

0:21:42.636 --> 0:21:44.436
<v Speaker 2>So first off, you're listening to this and this is

0:21:44.436 --> 0:21:46.996
<v Speaker 2>a new idea, and you're still listening, and I mean

0:21:46.996 --> 0:21:48.316
<v Speaker 2>this in the bottom of my heart. I hope you

0:21:48.436 --> 0:21:51.676
<v Speaker 2>give yourself credit for the bravery it takes to consider

0:21:51.756 --> 0:21:55.196
<v Speaker 2>something new. It's such a brave thing and you obviously

0:21:55.276 --> 0:21:57.916
<v Speaker 2>know this better than anyone. To even consider taking a

0:21:57.916 --> 0:22:00.516
<v Speaker 2>different path is so vulnerable because we're faced with like, oh,

0:22:00.916 --> 0:22:03.156
<v Speaker 2>did I do it wrong? Did I mess up my kid?

0:22:03.196 --> 0:22:03.516
<v Speaker 1>Forever?

0:22:03.716 --> 0:22:06.236
<v Speaker 2>My answer is no to both questions. And by the way,

0:22:06.316 --> 0:22:08.076
<v Speaker 2>if you take a different path, you'll be like me.

0:22:08.156 --> 0:22:10.996
<v Speaker 2>There'll still be moments you yourself saying go to your room, no,

0:22:11.036 --> 0:22:12.356
<v Speaker 2>I bet for a week and then I'm like, why

0:22:12.356 --> 0:22:13.756
<v Speaker 2>did I say that? I just I don't want to

0:22:13.756 --> 0:22:15.236
<v Speaker 2>say that. Why did I say that? Like we all

0:22:15.276 --> 0:22:18.236
<v Speaker 2>say these things. No one is perfect, definitely not me.

0:22:19.076 --> 0:22:22.036
<v Speaker 2>I do think like you said, this concept of MGI

0:22:22.236 --> 0:22:27.036
<v Speaker 2>most generous interpretation is such a concrete way to start

0:22:27.356 --> 0:22:32.596
<v Speaker 2>thinking in a different way. So really, the simple exercise

0:22:32.916 --> 0:22:36.596
<v Speaker 2>is everybody, right now, think about a behavior in your kid,

0:22:36.756 --> 0:22:38.636
<v Speaker 2>or could be your partner, or your colleague or your

0:22:38.636 --> 0:22:41.836
<v Speaker 2>mother in law, whoever it is that feels like a

0:22:41.876 --> 0:22:44.196
<v Speaker 2>bad behavior and it's kind of something that gets under

0:22:44.276 --> 0:22:48.916
<v Speaker 2>your skin. So maybe I'll say, for my daughter, it's

0:22:49.276 --> 0:22:52.156
<v Speaker 2>screaming at me when she could just say I didn't

0:22:52.196 --> 0:22:52.996
<v Speaker 2>like that, right.

0:22:52.956 --> 0:22:56.476
<v Speaker 1>Screaming colleague of mine who interrupts me in meetings when

0:22:56.516 --> 0:22:56.916
<v Speaker 1>I'm mid.

0:22:56.876 --> 0:23:01.596
<v Speaker 2>Perfect, perfect example, my colleague is always interrupting me. And

0:23:01.636 --> 0:23:03.516
<v Speaker 2>then just ask yourself this screamy.

0:23:03.116 --> 0:23:06.396
<v Speaker 1>I just interrupted you. Sorry to make that point.

0:23:06.436 --> 0:23:09.596
<v Speaker 2>Whoops. So I would say, what is my my most

0:23:09.716 --> 0:23:14.556
<v Speaker 2>generous interpretation of Maya's interrupting me? Right? But what is

0:23:14.636 --> 0:23:17.196
<v Speaker 2>my most generous interpretation of and then fill in the blank,

0:23:17.236 --> 0:23:22.876
<v Speaker 2>what is my most generous interpretation of my daughter continuing

0:23:22.876 --> 0:23:25.116
<v Speaker 2>to jump on the couch after I said, please stop

0:23:25.156 --> 0:23:27.316
<v Speaker 2>jumping on the couch. What is my most generous interpretation

0:23:27.356 --> 0:23:28.836
<v Speaker 2>of my daughter lying to my face? What is my

0:23:28.876 --> 0:23:33.836
<v Speaker 2>most generous interpretation of why my partner came home after

0:23:33.956 --> 0:23:36.876
<v Speaker 2>six pm when we had talked about my partner coming

0:23:36.916 --> 0:23:40.036
<v Speaker 2>home at five thirty pm? And to be clear, when

0:23:40.076 --> 0:23:43.036
<v Speaker 2>you come up with the most generous interpretation, the action

0:23:43.196 --> 0:23:45.716
<v Speaker 2>you take next isn't saying to the other person it's

0:23:45.756 --> 0:23:49.836
<v Speaker 2>fine that you did that. No, What a most generous

0:23:49.876 --> 0:23:54.196
<v Speaker 2>interpretation lens does for you is it always helps you

0:23:54.276 --> 0:23:58.156
<v Speaker 2>see that there is a good person under a bad behavior.

0:23:59.276 --> 0:24:03.556
<v Speaker 2>And what it really does is it helps you think, like, well,

0:24:03.716 --> 0:24:06.116
<v Speaker 2>what was going on for that person, Like what else

0:24:06.556 --> 0:24:09.636
<v Speaker 2>could have been their positive intent even if it wasn't

0:24:10.156 --> 0:24:12.596
<v Speaker 2>acted out in their behavior. And what it does is

0:24:12.636 --> 0:24:16.356
<v Speaker 2>it also helps you intervene from a place of groundedness

0:24:16.916 --> 0:24:20.996
<v Speaker 2>and of seeing the other person as a teammate. Me

0:24:21.116 --> 0:24:26.036
<v Speaker 2>and Maya are on a team against interrupting. Me and

0:24:26.076 --> 0:24:31.436
<v Speaker 2>my husband are on a team against poor communication around

0:24:31.436 --> 0:24:33.396
<v Speaker 2>what time he was going to be home from work.

0:24:33.836 --> 0:24:36.556
<v Speaker 2>Me and my daughter are actually on the same team

0:24:36.836 --> 0:24:40.036
<v Speaker 2>against this hitting problem because the truth is she doesn't

0:24:40.036 --> 0:24:42.516
<v Speaker 2>want to be doing it either, and that changes everything.

0:24:43.436 --> 0:24:45.636
<v Speaker 1>You talk in your book about one of the most

0:24:45.716 --> 0:24:49.716
<v Speaker 1>important tools for parents being the concept of repair. So

0:24:49.756 --> 0:24:53.236
<v Speaker 1>tell me more about rupture and repair and how owning

0:24:53.356 --> 0:24:55.236
<v Speaker 1>this as a parent can actually improve things.

0:24:55.796 --> 0:25:00.236
<v Speaker 2>So a rupture is really any moment in a relationship

0:25:00.476 --> 0:25:03.876
<v Speaker 2>where you feel disconnected, A rupture is me yelling at

0:25:03.876 --> 0:25:07.076
<v Speaker 2>my kid what's wrong with you? Or me calling them

0:25:07.236 --> 0:25:09.636
<v Speaker 2>you know a name, I cannot believe you freak out

0:25:09.636 --> 0:25:12.716
<v Speaker 2>in that toy story. You're such a spoiled brat. A

0:25:12.796 --> 0:25:15.036
<v Speaker 2>rupture can also be my kid wanting to talk to

0:25:15.076 --> 0:25:17.676
<v Speaker 2>me about something and me invalidating it or rushing past it.

0:25:17.676 --> 0:25:20.076
<v Speaker 2>I'm really upset about not making the soccer team. Oh

0:25:20.116 --> 0:25:21.756
<v Speaker 2>you're so dramatic. It's not a big deal. You made

0:25:21.756 --> 0:25:24.156
<v Speaker 2>a basketball team. That could be a rupture too. So

0:25:24.236 --> 0:25:27.196
<v Speaker 2>it's really like a break in your connection with someone,

0:25:28.476 --> 0:25:33.196
<v Speaker 2>and a repair is the process of going back to

0:25:33.236 --> 0:25:40.156
<v Speaker 2>that moment of disconnection, taking responsibility for your part in

0:25:40.156 --> 0:25:45.356
<v Speaker 2>that event, helping the other person understand it in a

0:25:45.396 --> 0:25:48.596
<v Speaker 2>different way, and I think also stating what you would

0:25:48.596 --> 0:25:52.756
<v Speaker 2>do differently the next time. Events in and of themselves

0:25:53.556 --> 0:25:57.076
<v Speaker 2>are not what have a negative impact on kids, and

0:25:57.116 --> 0:25:59.796
<v Speaker 2>so actually this understanding is huge. So an event like

0:26:00.036 --> 0:26:03.276
<v Speaker 2>I just screamed my head off at my kids, now,

0:26:03.556 --> 0:26:05.996
<v Speaker 2>is that an amazing event for a kid? Of course not.

0:26:06.036 --> 0:26:09.636
<v Speaker 2>It's not a great event. But that event isn't having

0:26:09.796 --> 0:26:12.316
<v Speaker 2>the impact on your kids that you think it is.

0:26:12.876 --> 0:26:16.556
<v Speaker 2>What has an impact on a kid and their development

0:26:17.316 --> 0:26:22.436
<v Speaker 2>is how an event gets processed. For them, It's actually

0:26:22.476 --> 0:26:26.276
<v Speaker 2>more about what happens after the event. There's two things

0:26:26.316 --> 0:26:29.436
<v Speaker 2>that can happen. An event is followed by a loneeness

0:26:29.836 --> 0:26:31.956
<v Speaker 2>and nobody ever talks to me about it, and no

0:26:31.956 --> 0:26:35.156
<v Speaker 2>one ever mentions it again. So after an overwhelming event,

0:26:35.236 --> 0:26:36.916
<v Speaker 2>I guess I'm just a five year old trying to

0:26:36.956 --> 0:26:39.676
<v Speaker 2>process this on my own. There's that, or there's the

0:26:39.716 --> 0:26:43.276
<v Speaker 2>same event, and then after, at some point, I have

0:26:43.356 --> 0:26:47.996
<v Speaker 2>a loving, safe, trusted adult who connects with me and

0:26:48.116 --> 0:26:52.436
<v Speaker 2>helps me understand that event and gives me more coherence

0:26:52.716 --> 0:26:57.356
<v Speaker 2>about the event and helps me regulate my feelings through

0:26:57.356 --> 0:27:02.596
<v Speaker 2>that process. Same event, two totally different ways of processing

0:27:02.636 --> 0:27:08.156
<v Speaker 2>it and two completely different outcomes, And the difference is

0:27:08.236 --> 0:27:12.196
<v Speaker 2>actually all about the relationship we have with someone after

0:27:12.276 --> 0:27:12.716
<v Speaker 2>the event.

0:27:13.836 --> 0:27:16.556
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you have a great quote, which is that repair

0:27:16.676 --> 0:27:20.356
<v Speaker 1>gives a not great chapter a different ending and allows

0:27:20.396 --> 0:27:22.596
<v Speaker 1>for a different lesson to be learned. In this case,

0:27:22.636 --> 0:27:24.676
<v Speaker 1>the not great chapter was yelling at your kid.

0:27:24.876 --> 0:27:28.676
<v Speaker 2>Yes, so a repair for yelling at my son might

0:27:28.716 --> 0:27:31.756
<v Speaker 2>sound like, Hey, earlier today, I screamed at you in

0:27:31.756 --> 0:27:36.636
<v Speaker 2>the kitchen and I'm sorry, and I think I was

0:27:36.676 --> 0:27:38.596
<v Speaker 2>just having a really hard time. I was stressed, and

0:27:38.636 --> 0:27:41.396
<v Speaker 2>that came out as a yell. It wasn't your fault.

0:27:41.836 --> 0:27:45.796
<v Speaker 2>And I'm working on managing my own frustration so even

0:27:45.836 --> 0:27:48.276
<v Speaker 2>when I'm frustrated, it doesn't come out in a yell.

0:27:48.796 --> 0:27:51.636
<v Speaker 2>And if that all seems too complicated, just saying to

0:27:51.676 --> 0:27:55.836
<v Speaker 2>a kid, I'm sorry I yelled, that wasn't your fault.

0:27:56.316 --> 0:27:59.756
<v Speaker 2>I love you is like shorthand, and I'm happy to

0:27:59.796 --> 0:28:02.596
<v Speaker 2>double click on it wasn't your fault because I know

0:28:02.756 --> 0:28:04.836
<v Speaker 2>it's like kind of a complicated thing because.

0:28:04.716 --> 0:28:06.476
<v Speaker 1>Because you're like, it is kind of your fault because

0:28:06.476 --> 0:28:09.076
<v Speaker 1>it is through your dinner all over the room, and yeah,

0:28:09.236 --> 0:28:13.756
<v Speaker 1>that me for whatever. Yeah, so how do you get there?

0:28:13.316 --> 0:28:18.036
<v Speaker 2>Here's how I get there. I was having some set

0:28:18.076 --> 0:28:21.956
<v Speaker 2>of feelings that were bigger than my ability to regulate

0:28:22.036 --> 0:28:25.036
<v Speaker 2>those feelings. That has to do with the event in

0:28:25.076 --> 0:28:29.396
<v Speaker 2>front of me. But honestly, it's the hard truth. My

0:28:29.556 --> 0:28:34.836
<v Speaker 2>regulation skills and patterns predated my son's existence, like they're

0:28:34.916 --> 0:28:36.916
<v Speaker 2>in my body. Like how able am I in general

0:28:36.956 --> 0:28:39.356
<v Speaker 2>to deal with the frustration? How able am I to

0:28:39.476 --> 0:28:43.556
<v Speaker 2>keep myself regulated and grounded when I'm upset? How able

0:28:43.596 --> 0:28:45.996
<v Speaker 2>am I to communicate with someone when I'm frustrated with

0:28:46.036 --> 0:28:48.636
<v Speaker 2>them in a way that's still respectful. Those things have

0:28:48.676 --> 0:28:52.036
<v Speaker 2>to do with me. He didn't quote make me yell.

0:28:52.236 --> 0:28:55.956
<v Speaker 2>An event happened between us. I felt frustrated, and at

0:28:55.996 --> 0:28:59.636
<v Speaker 2>the point the frustration started in my body, it's kind

0:28:59.636 --> 0:29:04.916
<v Speaker 2>of my own skills that relate to how I handle it.

0:29:05.676 --> 0:29:08.676
<v Speaker 2>The more we teach our kids that were blaming them

0:29:09.396 --> 0:29:13.156
<v Speaker 2>for our lack of coping skills or inability to access

0:29:13.196 --> 0:29:16.116
<v Speaker 2>them in the moment, that creates a whole set of

0:29:16.356 --> 0:29:20.356
<v Speaker 2>not so great patterns intergenerationally that I actually don't think

0:29:20.396 --> 0:29:23.516
<v Speaker 2>anyone actually wants to pass on to their kids. Plus

0:29:23.636 --> 0:29:26.316
<v Speaker 2>one last thing, it is the most disempowering thing to me,

0:29:26.476 --> 0:29:28.276
<v Speaker 2>Like when parents say, but if my kid didn't complain

0:29:28.316 --> 0:29:30.636
<v Speaker 2>about dinner, I wouldn't yell. Look, I know yelling doesn't

0:29:30.636 --> 0:29:32.556
<v Speaker 2>feel great to you. It doesn't feel great to anyone.

0:29:32.636 --> 0:29:35.876
<v Speaker 2>So you're saying that you're willing to depend on your

0:29:35.916 --> 0:29:39.076
<v Speaker 2>four year old changing what they say for you to

0:29:39.156 --> 0:29:40.916
<v Speaker 2>behave in a way that's in line with your value.

0:29:40.996 --> 0:29:43.116
<v Speaker 2>Is like, I'm not willing to make that bet. My

0:29:43.156 --> 0:29:45.676
<v Speaker 2>self esteem is way too important to me to leave

0:29:45.716 --> 0:29:47.956
<v Speaker 2>it dependent on my kid. So I think that's another

0:29:47.996 --> 0:29:48.836
<v Speaker 2>perspective on it.

0:29:48.996 --> 0:29:53.316
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and there's an irony because there's actually just parallel

0:29:53.316 --> 0:29:55.996
<v Speaker 1>processes happening that are very similar to one another, which

0:29:56.036 --> 0:29:58.956
<v Speaker 1>is the kids disappointed with the meal and can't manage

0:29:58.956 --> 0:30:00.996
<v Speaker 1>the big emotions, so they throw their dinner plate in

0:30:01.036 --> 0:30:05.036
<v Speaker 1>food everywhere. The mom or dad can't handle the behaviors

0:30:05.076 --> 0:30:08.036
<v Speaker 1>of the kid, and then they can't regulate themselves. And

0:30:08.076 --> 0:30:10.356
<v Speaker 1>so maybe we can bridge the empathy gap just a

0:30:10.356 --> 0:30:14.836
<v Speaker 1>little bit if we realize the inherent psychological similarities between

0:30:14.996 --> 0:30:17.596
<v Speaker 1>what both parent and child are managing in that moment.

0:30:18.196 --> 0:30:22.236
<v Speaker 2>That's right. So if our kid's disregulated emotion is just

0:30:22.596 --> 0:30:26.316
<v Speaker 2>met with our disregulated emotions, then what they're building in

0:30:26.356 --> 0:30:29.796
<v Speaker 2>their body in terms of their circuits and patterns of

0:30:29.876 --> 0:30:32.756
<v Speaker 2>learning of how the world works is my emotion that

0:30:32.836 --> 0:30:35.236
<v Speaker 2>was too big for me gets layered on top of

0:30:35.276 --> 0:30:37.796
<v Speaker 2>my parent's emotion that was too big for them. Guess what,

0:30:38.276 --> 0:30:40.156
<v Speaker 2>I'm actually making it harder for my kid to learn

0:30:40.156 --> 0:30:42.796
<v Speaker 2>how to regulate their own emotions because of that association.

0:30:43.756 --> 0:30:45.676
<v Speaker 1>What do you say to parents who are afraid that

0:30:45.796 --> 0:30:48.436
<v Speaker 1>is just too late for them to implement your approach?

0:30:49.076 --> 0:30:51.916
<v Speaker 1>So they're thinking, look, this all sounds great, but my

0:30:52.076 --> 0:30:55.116
<v Speaker 1>kid is twenty four, and so I'm pretty sure that

0:30:55.156 --> 0:30:55.956
<v Speaker 1>I miss the window.

0:30:56.556 --> 0:31:00.076
<v Speaker 2>It is never too late. It is never too late.

0:31:01.036 --> 0:31:03.596
<v Speaker 2>Is it going to take effort to re establish a

0:31:03.596 --> 0:31:06.756
<v Speaker 2>connection with your twenty four year old, just like it

0:31:06.796 --> 0:31:09.756
<v Speaker 2>would take effort to learn a new language. But ironically,

0:31:10.236 --> 0:31:14.516
<v Speaker 2>the belief that it's too late is the single biggest

0:31:14.516 --> 0:31:18.036
<v Speaker 2>thing that stops us from change. And then I would say, like,

0:31:18.516 --> 0:31:20.796
<v Speaker 2>what is one thing? What is one thing you can do?

0:31:21.276 --> 0:31:25.276
<v Speaker 2>And to me, when we're trying to establish a closer

0:31:25.316 --> 0:31:28.876
<v Speaker 2>relationship with our kids or anyone, repair is often like

0:31:28.916 --> 0:31:32.156
<v Speaker 2>the best starting point. Have you just imagine your own

0:31:32.236 --> 0:31:35.676
<v Speaker 2>parent calling you like, hey, Like, I've been thinking a

0:31:35.676 --> 0:31:38.596
<v Speaker 2>lot about our relationship and the way I did things,

0:31:38.636 --> 0:31:41.796
<v Speaker 2>and I just I know there were a lot of

0:31:41.876 --> 0:31:45.876
<v Speaker 2>things that felt really bad to you, and I get

0:31:45.876 --> 0:31:48.596
<v Speaker 2>that and you were right to feel that way, and

0:31:48.636 --> 0:31:51.036
<v Speaker 2>I care about you, and I know we can't do

0:31:51.076 --> 0:31:53.676
<v Speaker 2>a complete one eighty right now, but I'm willing to

0:31:53.716 --> 0:31:57.036
<v Speaker 2>listen and I want to do things differently. I just

0:31:57.076 --> 0:32:00.876
<v Speaker 2>don't know one adult who's like, yeah, it's too late,

0:32:00.996 --> 0:32:03.796
<v Speaker 2>like that would do nothing. I know plenty of adults

0:32:03.836 --> 0:32:05.236
<v Speaker 2>who would say, I don't know, I might still have

0:32:05.276 --> 0:32:07.876
<v Speaker 2>my guardup and that wouldn't change everything. I'd say, good Now,

0:32:08.116 --> 0:32:11.716
<v Speaker 2>one conversation should change everything, but it might change one thing,

0:32:11.836 --> 0:32:14.716
<v Speaker 2>or it might change some things. And I think if

0:32:14.716 --> 0:32:16.836
<v Speaker 2>we know that it would have that impact on us. Well,

0:32:16.876 --> 0:32:19.156
<v Speaker 2>our kids are younger than us and they're even more

0:32:19.276 --> 0:32:22.196
<v Speaker 2>open as a result, and I think that's a great

0:32:22.196 --> 0:32:22.836
<v Speaker 2>starting point.

0:32:24.196 --> 0:32:26.236
<v Speaker 1>I think I just have a reflection, which is just

0:32:27.676 --> 0:32:30.236
<v Speaker 1>with all of these tools and all of these techniques,

0:32:30.316 --> 0:32:36.596
<v Speaker 1>parenting is just so fricking hard. And I'm curious if

0:32:36.596 --> 0:32:40.476
<v Speaker 1>you're willing to share, Like when you maybe imagine parenthood

0:32:41.276 --> 0:32:43.236
<v Speaker 1>and what it was going to be like and then

0:32:43.276 --> 0:32:46.596
<v Speaker 1>you experience the reality, what have you found to be

0:32:47.156 --> 0:32:52.236
<v Speaker 1>the most surprising, hard component of being a parent?

0:32:52.956 --> 0:32:58.276
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? I think on some level, unconsciously, we think our

0:32:58.396 --> 0:33:01.876
<v Speaker 2>kids are going to heal us. And the truth is

0:33:01.876 --> 0:33:06.636
<v Speaker 2>our kids trigger us, like they trigger us all the time,

0:33:07.636 --> 0:33:09.996
<v Speaker 2>and so in that way, I think what I was

0:33:10.076 --> 0:33:13.676
<v Speaker 2>unprepared for, and I think most people are unprepared for,

0:33:13.876 --> 0:33:18.716
<v Speaker 2>is like parenting is just an exercise and like self development,

0:33:18.756 --> 0:33:21.476
<v Speaker 2>if we're willing to take it on, our kids trigger

0:33:21.556 --> 0:33:23.756
<v Speaker 2>us which really mean, Oh, they bring up a lot

0:33:23.756 --> 0:33:27.956
<v Speaker 2>of unresolved, unprocessed things in us, and am I willing

0:33:27.996 --> 0:33:31.116
<v Speaker 2>to look in and say, okay, like can I use

0:33:31.156 --> 0:33:33.156
<v Speaker 2>those and grow? Because obviously it'll help me grow as

0:33:33.156 --> 0:33:35.676
<v Speaker 2>a parent. Ironically, it'll actually help me grow more as

0:33:35.716 --> 0:33:38.276
<v Speaker 2>a person because these things always kind of lived within me,

0:33:38.436 --> 0:33:39.956
<v Speaker 2>but they just weren't triggered as often.

0:33:41.276 --> 0:33:41.476
<v Speaker 1>You know.

0:33:41.556 --> 0:33:45.036
<v Speaker 2>I had my first kid and he just temperamentally was

0:33:45.076 --> 0:33:47.116
<v Speaker 2>like a kind of easier kid. I didn't realize that

0:33:47.196 --> 0:33:49.396
<v Speaker 2>I'm at tantrums, but looking back, like he really was

0:33:49.756 --> 0:33:51.796
<v Speaker 2>pretty easy. And I did all these parenting things and

0:33:52.076 --> 0:33:53.956
<v Speaker 2>it's not like he said thank you, mommy, you know,

0:33:54.036 --> 0:33:56.356
<v Speaker 2>but he did kind of like do well when I

0:33:56.396 --> 0:33:59.476
<v Speaker 2>did them. And I remember i'd have these parents in

0:33:59.516 --> 0:34:02.036
<v Speaker 2>my private practice who'd be like, I'm doing the thing

0:34:02.316 --> 0:34:05.316
<v Speaker 2>you're telling me, but my kid a yewlller, it's not changing.

0:34:05.356 --> 0:34:07.596
<v Speaker 2>And in the back of my head I'd be like,

0:34:07.796 --> 0:34:10.276
<v Speaker 2>you're probably not doing it, yeah right, you know, But

0:34:10.356 --> 0:34:12.516
<v Speaker 2>then I'd be like I wouldn't say that to their face.

0:34:12.676 --> 0:34:15.836
<v Speaker 2>And then I had my second kid, and I was like,

0:34:16.156 --> 0:34:19.516
<v Speaker 2>oh my goodness, Like I thought I had this down

0:34:19.556 --> 0:34:21.876
<v Speaker 2>a little bit and all those things those parents were

0:34:21.876 --> 0:34:24.356
<v Speaker 2>saying to me and my practice that's happening now. Yeah, Like,

0:34:24.556 --> 0:34:27.596
<v Speaker 2>oh my goodness, my second, I feel like it's a

0:34:27.716 --> 0:34:31.716
<v Speaker 2>lot more effort on my part to show up the

0:34:31.756 --> 0:34:35.196
<v Speaker 2>way she would need. And also therefore, yeah, like we

0:34:35.236 --> 0:34:38.116
<v Speaker 2>have more rupture moments for sure because of also what

0:34:38.236 --> 0:34:39.356
<v Speaker 2>she triggers in me.

0:34:39.796 --> 0:34:42.756
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, what you're sharing with me, Becky is really profound,

0:34:42.756 --> 0:34:45.436
<v Speaker 1>because I think we think of parenting as a phase

0:34:45.476 --> 0:34:49.516
<v Speaker 1>in life where we've accumulated all of this wisdom and

0:34:49.556 --> 0:34:53.756
<v Speaker 1>now it's time to impart that wisdom on these little people, right,

0:34:53.796 --> 0:34:55.876
<v Speaker 1>And I think what you're teaching me in this moment

0:34:55.956 --> 0:34:58.556
<v Speaker 1>is actually what kids do is they hold up a

0:34:58.556 --> 0:35:01.396
<v Speaker 1>mirror to you, and actually it's self learning.

0:35:01.756 --> 0:35:04.516
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think that's exactly right. You know. I always

0:35:04.596 --> 0:35:07.156
<v Speaker 2>think about the prologue from Far from the Tree, which

0:35:07.196 --> 0:35:11.876
<v Speaker 2>is this amazing Solomon and I think, you know, his

0:35:11.916 --> 0:35:14.956
<v Speaker 2>first line is there's no such thing as reproduction, and

0:35:14.996 --> 0:35:16.796
<v Speaker 2>I think that says a lot about parenting. We use

0:35:16.836 --> 0:35:20.756
<v Speaker 2>this word reproduction as if we reproduce, and he says

0:35:21.076 --> 0:35:24.836
<v Speaker 2>a child is an act of production. You produce, And

0:35:24.956 --> 0:35:27.596
<v Speaker 2>what he says is parenting is being forever cast into

0:35:27.636 --> 0:35:31.356
<v Speaker 2>a relationship with a stranger and it's so dark, but

0:35:31.396 --> 0:35:33.436
<v Speaker 2>it's so true. And he's like, people don't say it

0:35:33.476 --> 0:35:34.916
<v Speaker 2>that way because no one would have kids. They'd be like,

0:35:34.916 --> 0:35:36.076
<v Speaker 2>I don't know who the stranger is. I don't know

0:35:36.076 --> 0:35:37.476
<v Speaker 2>if I want to live with this kid my whole

0:35:37.476 --> 0:35:40.956
<v Speaker 2>life yet kind of what it is, And you know,

0:35:40.996 --> 0:35:43.596
<v Speaker 2>I think that brings up so much for us, Like

0:35:43.756 --> 0:35:47.116
<v Speaker 2>you learn way more about yourself than you will ever

0:35:47.276 --> 0:35:52.796
<v Speaker 2>teach your child, and that's that's tiring. And I think again,

0:35:52.836 --> 0:35:56.556
<v Speaker 2>it's just very different than like the societal view and

0:35:56.636 --> 0:36:01.476
<v Speaker 2>expectations of parenting. I feel like it's so important to

0:36:01.476 --> 0:36:03.476
<v Speaker 2>like say it how it really is, because hopefully there'll

0:36:03.516 --> 0:36:06.276
<v Speaker 2>be generations who have kids at some point and can

0:36:06.396 --> 0:36:07.676
<v Speaker 2>just say I knew it would be hard.

0:36:35.636 --> 0:36:38.636
<v Speaker 1>Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed my

0:36:38.676 --> 0:36:42.036
<v Speaker 1>conversation with doctor Becky, I recommend checking out last week's

0:36:42.076 --> 0:36:47.076
<v Speaker 1>episode with developmental psychologist Alison Gopnik. We talk about how

0:36:47.316 --> 0:36:49.516
<v Speaker 1>children are the best learners we know of in the

0:36:49.636 --> 0:36:53.116
<v Speaker 1>universe and what they can teach us about creativity and

0:36:53.156 --> 0:36:56.796
<v Speaker 1>being more open to taking risks and join me next

0:36:56.836 --> 0:37:00.076
<v Speaker 1>week when I talk with someone who, honestly, I'm kind

0:37:00.076 --> 0:37:03.796
<v Speaker 1>of obsessed with, so Leka Juwad. She's the author of

0:37:03.836 --> 0:37:07.516
<v Speaker 1>the best selling memoir Between Two Kingdoms, and she shares

0:37:07.556 --> 0:37:10.476
<v Speaker 1>her story of being diagnosed with an aggressive form of

0:37:10.516 --> 0:37:14.516
<v Speaker 1>leukemia in her early twenties. We talk about the isolation

0:37:14.676 --> 0:37:18.076
<v Speaker 1>of illness and recovery, why she hates the trope of

0:37:18.116 --> 0:37:21.676
<v Speaker 1>the hero's journey in cancer stories, and the solace in

0:37:21.716 --> 0:37:26.316
<v Speaker 1>finding creativity and community throughout it all. You won't want

0:37:26.356 --> 0:37:38.676
<v Speaker 1>to miss this one. I'll see you next week. A

0:37:38.756 --> 0:37:42.156
<v Speaker 1>Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive produced

0:37:42.196 --> 0:37:45.756
<v Speaker 1>by me Maya Shunker. The Slight Change family includes our

0:37:45.796 --> 0:37:50.596
<v Speaker 1>showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, our

0:37:50.636 --> 0:37:55.556
<v Speaker 1>senior producer Trisha Bobida, and our engineer Eric o'wang. Louis

0:37:55.596 --> 0:37:58.956
<v Speaker 1>Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith helped

0:37:59.036 --> 0:38:02.076
<v Speaker 1>arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is a

0:38:02.116 --> 0:38:05.636
<v Speaker 1>production of Pushkin Industries, so a big thanks to everyone there,

0:38:06.116 --> 0:38:09.276
<v Speaker 1>and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee.

0:38:09.956 --> 0:38:12.396
<v Speaker 1>You can follow A Slight Change of Plans on Instagram

0:38:12.436 --> 0:38:15.196
<v Speaker 1>at doctor Maya Schunker. See you next week.

0:38:35.876 --> 0:38:38.316
<v Speaker 2>Like if I was going out to dinner with my

0:38:38.396 --> 0:38:41.156
<v Speaker 2>husband and he was like, get on your shoes by

0:38:41.196 --> 0:38:43.836
<v Speaker 2>the time I count to three, or you don't get

0:38:43.836 --> 0:38:46.876
<v Speaker 2>dessert tonight, and if I said I'm not getting my shoes.

0:38:46.916 --> 0:38:48.956
<v Speaker 2>I just don't know one person who'd say, Becky, like

0:38:49.916 --> 0:38:52.476
<v Speaker 2>I think you have a listening problem. Like I think

0:38:52.476 --> 0:38:54.556
<v Speaker 2>they'd be like, Becky, I think you have a husband problem,

0:38:54.596 --> 0:38:55.716
<v Speaker 2>Like what is that guy's deal