1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:15,396 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:30,476 --> 00:00:32,716 Speaker 2: The only true strategy we ever have with our kids 3 00:00:32,756 --> 00:00:35,116 Speaker 2: is our relationship with them. Our kids will all get 4 00:00:35,156 --> 00:00:36,796 Speaker 2: to an age and it's all sooner than we think 5 00:00:36,996 --> 00:00:41,276 Speaker 2: where they're basically like, wait, I'm big now, Like you 6 00:00:41,396 --> 00:00:44,196 Speaker 2: literally can't put me in a time out and I 7 00:00:44,276 --> 00:00:47,756 Speaker 2: literally don't give two shits about your stickers, Like seriously, 8 00:00:47,836 --> 00:00:51,276 Speaker 2: that's what they're going to say. And so the only 9 00:00:51,396 --> 00:00:55,156 Speaker 2: thing between us is the quality of our relationship. 10 00:00:56,196 --> 00:00:59,516 Speaker 1: Doctor Becky Kennedy is a clinical psychologist known for her 11 00:00:59,556 --> 00:01:03,676 Speaker 1: parenting advice, and her core message is this, when we 12 00:01:03,716 --> 00:01:07,076 Speaker 1: punish kids for their behavior, they may internalize the feeling 13 00:01:07,236 --> 00:01:09,636 Speaker 1: that they're bad inside and can't change. 14 00:01:10,116 --> 00:01:13,556 Speaker 2: Behavior is not identity, Like there's a good kid, a 15 00:01:13,796 --> 00:01:16,596 Speaker 2: in pain kid, probably a smart kid, a freaking funny 16 00:01:16,676 --> 00:01:20,596 Speaker 2: kid underneath these really difficult behaviors. And I think when 17 00:01:20,596 --> 00:01:23,676 Speaker 2: you start seeing that, you intervene totally differently in a 18 00:01:23,676 --> 00:01:25,356 Speaker 2: way that feels better to the kid and the parent, 19 00:01:25,476 --> 00:01:27,956 Speaker 2: and honestly in a way that also is just much 20 00:01:27,996 --> 00:01:29,796 Speaker 2: more effective for behavior change. 21 00:01:32,156 --> 00:01:36,516 Speaker 1: On today's episode, doctor Becky helps us rethink parenting for 22 00:01:36,596 --> 00:01:41,356 Speaker 1: the benefit of both kids and adults. I'm maya Shunker 23 00:01:41,516 --> 00:01:43,916 Speaker 1: and this is a slight change of plans, a show 24 00:01:43,916 --> 00:01:46,316 Speaker 1: about who we are and who we become in the 25 00:01:46,316 --> 00:02:00,956 Speaker 1: face of a big change. Becky is the founder of 26 00:02:01,036 --> 00:02:04,676 Speaker 1: Good Inside, a company that helps parents navigate the often 27 00:02:04,796 --> 00:02:09,276 Speaker 1: challenging experience of raising kids. Good Inside is also or 28 00:02:09,276 --> 00:02:13,196 Speaker 1: her recommended parenting strategy. She says parents should start with 29 00:02:13,236 --> 00:02:15,756 Speaker 1: the assumption that their kids are good at their core. 30 00:02:16,516 --> 00:02:20,196 Speaker 1: This might sound like a philosophical point, but Becky says 31 00:02:20,276 --> 00:02:23,076 Speaker 1: it's actually a radical shift in mindset that can change 32 00:02:23,076 --> 00:02:26,956 Speaker 1: how parents react when their kids misbehave. What I love 33 00:02:26,996 --> 00:02:29,276 Speaker 1: about Becky's approach is how you can apply it to 34 00:02:29,316 --> 00:02:32,556 Speaker 1: all kinds of relationships. I'm not a parent, but I 35 00:02:32,636 --> 00:02:35,476 Speaker 1: found myself thinking through these strategies and the context of 36 00:02:35,516 --> 00:02:38,516 Speaker 1: my relationships with my coworkers and as an aunt to 37 00:02:38,596 --> 00:02:42,916 Speaker 1: my nephews and nieces. Okay, now onto my conversation with Becky. 38 00:02:43,876 --> 00:02:46,996 Speaker 1: I'd love to rewind the clock to this one day, 39 00:02:47,036 --> 00:02:50,516 Speaker 1: back in twenty fourteen. You are a therapist for parents 40 00:02:50,556 --> 00:02:55,356 Speaker 1: struggling with kids who are misbehaving, screaming, hitting, name calling, you, 41 00:02:55,436 --> 00:02:59,036 Speaker 1: name it. Tell me more, Becky, about what you had 42 00:02:59,036 --> 00:03:02,076 Speaker 1: been taught to recommend to these parents, and then how 43 00:03:02,156 --> 00:03:04,476 Speaker 1: things shifted for you on that one day. 44 00:03:04,956 --> 00:03:08,796 Speaker 2: Yeah. So I was seeing parents who had come to 45 00:03:08,836 --> 00:03:11,596 Speaker 2: me hitting like their hit kid was in a hitting stage, 46 00:03:11,596 --> 00:03:13,756 Speaker 2: and also not listening and all these things. And I 47 00:03:13,836 --> 00:03:17,036 Speaker 2: was teaching the parents how to give a time out 48 00:03:17,276 --> 00:03:19,716 Speaker 2: the program I was trained in, which was very esteemed. 49 00:03:19,756 --> 00:03:21,556 Speaker 2: It was kind of like the one to go to 50 00:03:21,836 --> 00:03:26,756 Speaker 2: around us. It was really all about timeouts, punishments, consequences, 51 00:03:26,756 --> 00:03:30,076 Speaker 2: sticker charts, praising. So I was teaching them how to 52 00:03:30,076 --> 00:03:34,796 Speaker 2: give a time out. But as I was talking, I 53 00:03:34,876 --> 00:03:38,676 Speaker 2: had this very uncomfortable feeling in my body. That's the 54 00:03:38,676 --> 00:03:40,516 Speaker 2: only way I can describe it, Like my heart was 55 00:03:40,596 --> 00:03:43,996 Speaker 2: kind of racing. It was loud enough in my body 56 00:03:44,036 --> 00:03:45,476 Speaker 2: that I kind of had to slow down be like, 57 00:03:45,556 --> 00:03:48,316 Speaker 2: what is going on? And probably for the past couple 58 00:03:48,356 --> 00:03:51,596 Speaker 2: months at that point, I'd started becoming a little skeptical 59 00:03:51,636 --> 00:03:53,876 Speaker 2: about this approach, I like the months before, because I 60 00:03:53,956 --> 00:03:56,116 Speaker 2: was like, this is so weird. Everything I know helps 61 00:03:56,196 --> 00:04:01,076 Speaker 2: adults change their lives. It's kind of theoretically at odds 62 00:04:01,116 --> 00:04:03,156 Speaker 2: with everything I'm telling parents to do with kids. I 63 00:04:03,156 --> 00:04:05,076 Speaker 2: don't know. I can't like just didn't make sense to 64 00:04:05,116 --> 00:04:06,516 Speaker 2: me that would be like that. But I was like, 65 00:04:06,556 --> 00:04:09,236 Speaker 2: I don't know, keep going, keep going, And this day, 66 00:04:09,436 --> 00:04:12,916 Speaker 2: the skepticism just reached a breaking point. I just said 67 00:04:12,916 --> 00:04:16,556 Speaker 2: to them, I'm sorry, this is super awkward. I actually 68 00:04:16,676 --> 00:04:20,436 Speaker 2: don't believe anything I'm telling you right now, and I'll 69 00:04:20,436 --> 00:04:25,836 Speaker 2: never forget their look. They were like, wtf you can 70 00:04:25,956 --> 00:04:29,196 Speaker 2: highly recommend it to us, like you don't believe what 71 00:04:29,196 --> 00:04:30,996 Speaker 2: you're telling us? Well, like do you believe something else? 72 00:04:31,036 --> 00:04:33,716 Speaker 2: And I remember being like, I know there's a different way. 73 00:04:33,796 --> 00:04:36,436 Speaker 2: I just I don't know what that is yet, but 74 00:04:36,956 --> 00:04:39,716 Speaker 2: I still kind of right now feel like this isn't it. 75 00:04:39,956 --> 00:04:41,796 Speaker 2: And I don't know. It's kind of like all I've 76 00:04:41,796 --> 00:04:43,596 Speaker 2: got right now, and maybe we can meet in a 77 00:04:43,636 --> 00:04:46,036 Speaker 2: couple of weeks. And they were like, yeah, like just 78 00:04:46,076 --> 00:04:47,596 Speaker 2: give us some money back, like I'm not We're not 79 00:04:47,636 --> 00:04:49,276 Speaker 2: coming back here, which you know, I don't blame them. 80 00:04:49,276 --> 00:04:50,796 Speaker 2: I'd be like, yeah, I don't think so, like this 81 00:04:50,836 --> 00:04:53,316 Speaker 2: is the weirdest session, but in that moment, I was 82 00:04:53,356 --> 00:04:56,116 Speaker 2: just like, this isn't it, and it just it kind 83 00:04:56,116 --> 00:04:57,076 Speaker 2: of like flew out of me. 84 00:04:57,996 --> 00:05:00,316 Speaker 1: There was something that I read about your experience that 85 00:05:00,396 --> 00:05:03,316 Speaker 1: day which really struck me, which is that you noticed 86 00:05:03,356 --> 00:05:07,356 Speaker 1: that you emphasized with these misbehaving kids quite a lot, 87 00:05:07,516 --> 00:05:08,356 Speaker 1: Like you liked. 88 00:05:08,156 --> 00:05:10,716 Speaker 2: That, Yeah, I feel like the kids with the worst 89 00:05:10,716 --> 00:05:13,036 Speaker 2: behavior are the kids in the most pain. You know, 90 00:05:13,076 --> 00:05:14,516 Speaker 2: you're talking about like a four year old or a 91 00:05:14,516 --> 00:05:16,076 Speaker 2: seven year old who's kind of like trying to wave 92 00:05:16,076 --> 00:05:18,156 Speaker 2: a flag the best way they can, which is like, well, 93 00:05:18,196 --> 00:05:20,836 Speaker 2: I know I can get people's attention from hitting or something, 94 00:05:20,836 --> 00:05:22,356 Speaker 2: and I'm so out of control, and I feel like 95 00:05:22,396 --> 00:05:24,716 Speaker 2: they're desperate calls for help. So I think I have 96 00:05:24,756 --> 00:05:27,116 Speaker 2: a lot of empathy with like, oh, this is a 97 00:05:27,156 --> 00:05:29,156 Speaker 2: kid who's in so much need and they're so much pain, 98 00:05:29,236 --> 00:05:31,676 Speaker 2: and then they tend to get the opposite of what 99 00:05:32,156 --> 00:05:36,196 Speaker 2: they're in a very unsophisticated way asking for. And so 100 00:05:36,436 --> 00:05:40,076 Speaker 2: after that session, I was just like, wait, I don't 101 00:05:40,116 --> 00:05:44,396 Speaker 2: think I believe in timeouts, but why, Like, what if 102 00:05:44,436 --> 00:05:49,396 Speaker 2: we just strip back every assumption that we have, what 103 00:05:49,596 --> 00:05:53,276 Speaker 2: are we left with? So here's one assumption. If you 104 00:05:53,356 --> 00:05:57,116 Speaker 2: don't punish a kid's behavior, you're basically telling them that 105 00:05:57,156 --> 00:05:59,196 Speaker 2: the behavior is okay. Parents say this all the time. 106 00:06:00,116 --> 00:06:04,476 Speaker 2: Why Like if I yelled at my husband and he 107 00:06:04,556 --> 00:06:06,516 Speaker 2: was like, WHOA, that's not okay. And also, you must 108 00:06:06,556 --> 00:06:09,356 Speaker 2: be upset. Let's get to the bottom of this. Do 109 00:06:09,436 --> 00:06:12,796 Speaker 2: I think he's approving of my behavior? Like, No, that's absurd. 110 00:06:13,356 --> 00:06:17,716 Speaker 2: So another assumption we often have is our kids are 111 00:06:17,796 --> 00:06:21,276 Speaker 2: kind of deliberately doing things to piss us off, or 112 00:06:21,316 --> 00:06:25,596 Speaker 2: they could do better, and they're not. I don't buy it. 113 00:06:25,756 --> 00:06:28,476 Speaker 2: I just don't buy it. My kid doing something in 114 00:06:28,476 --> 00:06:32,916 Speaker 2: the moment isn't about them giving me a hard time. 115 00:06:33,196 --> 00:06:37,316 Speaker 2: It's probably about them having a hard time. Massive difference, 116 00:06:37,636 --> 00:06:40,036 Speaker 2: And so I feel like I was left with one 117 00:06:40,436 --> 00:06:43,156 Speaker 2: single truth, And the only truth I was left with 118 00:06:43,356 --> 00:06:47,196 Speaker 2: is kids are good inside. Inherently they come into the 119 00:06:47,236 --> 00:06:50,956 Speaker 2: world good inside. And if that was the only thing 120 00:06:52,076 --> 00:06:55,556 Speaker 2: I thought about first, and now I've kind of taken 121 00:06:55,596 --> 00:06:57,796 Speaker 2: away all the floors of this other building, and that's 122 00:06:57,836 --> 00:07:00,716 Speaker 2: my only foundation. What is a brand new building I 123 00:07:00,716 --> 00:07:04,236 Speaker 2: would create from that foundation? Yeah. 124 00:07:04,596 --> 00:07:09,036 Speaker 1: So there's many pragmatic benefits, Becky, to taking this approach 125 00:07:09,196 --> 00:07:12,316 Speaker 1: and shifting your philosophy around the nature of your kids, 126 00:07:12,436 --> 00:07:15,676 Speaker 1: And to me, the most important one is that when 127 00:07:15,676 --> 00:07:17,516 Speaker 1: we assume kids are good inside and we are able 128 00:07:17,556 --> 00:07:21,676 Speaker 1: to separate their behaviors from their identity, it allows us 129 00:07:21,756 --> 00:07:25,596 Speaker 1: to be curious about why they're engaging in bad behavior 130 00:07:25,876 --> 00:07:28,796 Speaker 1: rather than simply trying to shape the behavior or even worse, 131 00:07:28,876 --> 00:07:31,196 Speaker 1: accepting it as fixed. So can you talk a little 132 00:07:31,236 --> 00:07:32,876 Speaker 1: bit more about that curiosity. 133 00:07:33,516 --> 00:07:37,316 Speaker 2: Yes, So everyone listening to this, if you put your 134 00:07:37,316 --> 00:07:39,396 Speaker 2: hands out in front of you and you look at 135 00:07:39,436 --> 00:07:41,636 Speaker 2: just one hand, and we'll say about your kid, but 136 00:07:41,676 --> 00:07:43,916 Speaker 2: it could be about an adult or anyone. Let's say 137 00:07:43,916 --> 00:07:46,076 Speaker 2: it's my son, Like, this is who my son is. 138 00:07:46,116 --> 00:07:49,396 Speaker 2: I'm looking at one hand, this is his identity. And 139 00:07:49,396 --> 00:07:51,996 Speaker 2: then you put your other hand further away so there's space, 140 00:07:52,076 --> 00:07:53,876 Speaker 2: and you look at that hand and you say, this 141 00:07:54,036 --> 00:07:56,556 Speaker 2: is my son's latest bad behavior. It might be he 142 00:07:56,636 --> 00:07:58,836 Speaker 2: hit or he said I hate you, or he lied 143 00:07:58,876 --> 00:08:01,036 Speaker 2: to your face, okay, And then you look at the 144 00:08:01,036 --> 00:08:02,556 Speaker 2: first hand and you're like, this is who he is, 145 00:08:02,996 --> 00:08:04,916 Speaker 2: and the other hand is this is what he did. 146 00:08:05,756 --> 00:08:08,076 Speaker 2: And it's really important to keep those hands separate because 147 00:08:08,076 --> 00:08:10,196 Speaker 2: what we tend to do is, let's say we'll take 148 00:08:10,236 --> 00:08:12,836 Speaker 2: something super triggering for a parent, like I just said 149 00:08:12,836 --> 00:08:16,196 Speaker 2: to my kid, did you just knock down your sister's tower? 150 00:08:16,556 --> 00:08:18,596 Speaker 2: By the way, I just saw him with my own 151 00:08:18,596 --> 00:08:20,516 Speaker 2: eyes knocked down his sister's tower, and he just looks 152 00:08:20,556 --> 00:08:23,116 Speaker 2: at me, He's like, no, okay, So let's say he 153 00:08:23,236 --> 00:08:25,396 Speaker 2: just lied literally to my face. So that's something he did. 154 00:08:25,996 --> 00:08:28,716 Speaker 2: It is so easy, and you'll hear it for the 155 00:08:28,756 --> 00:08:32,676 Speaker 2: hands to collapse, and all of a sudden, that behavior 156 00:08:33,236 --> 00:08:36,236 Speaker 2: becomes your kid, or your kid becomes that behavior. And 157 00:08:36,276 --> 00:08:39,596 Speaker 2: when we do that, we have no curiosity because we're 158 00:08:39,636 --> 00:08:42,356 Speaker 2: really only curious when there's a gap. We're curious because 159 00:08:42,356 --> 00:08:45,236 Speaker 2: we're like, I don't understand this. Why is that? And 160 00:08:45,276 --> 00:08:48,876 Speaker 2: now we can ask a very important question, why what 161 00:08:49,076 --> 00:08:52,156 Speaker 2: my good kid? And I'm looking at my identity hand 162 00:08:52,156 --> 00:08:54,316 Speaker 2: to me, it's my right, and then I'll switch to 163 00:08:54,356 --> 00:08:58,396 Speaker 2: my lap lie to my face, right, and then watch 164 00:08:58,476 --> 00:09:00,476 Speaker 2: how easy it is for them to come together. Oh, 165 00:09:00,476 --> 00:09:02,276 Speaker 2: because he doesn't respect me and he just like thinks 166 00:09:02,276 --> 00:09:04,356 Speaker 2: he can get away with it. And then I'd say 167 00:09:04,356 --> 00:09:06,036 Speaker 2: to a parent in my eyes, wow, wow, that was 168 00:09:06,076 --> 00:09:08,716 Speaker 2: so fast, Like there's no gap anymore. Let's just move 169 00:09:08,756 --> 00:09:14,996 Speaker 2: those away. Okay, that's one interpretation. It's not a useful interpretation. 170 00:09:15,076 --> 00:09:18,396 Speaker 2: There's no more curiosity. So once you have that gap, 171 00:09:19,476 --> 00:09:21,716 Speaker 2: why would my good kid lie to my face? 172 00:09:22,436 --> 00:09:22,676 Speaker 3: Well? 173 00:09:22,756 --> 00:09:25,196 Speaker 2: What I usually say if I don't know is I'll 174 00:09:25,196 --> 00:09:28,916 Speaker 2: say to myself Why would I lie to someone's face, 175 00:09:29,076 --> 00:09:31,956 Speaker 2: even if it was someone I really loved and respected? 176 00:09:32,796 --> 00:09:35,436 Speaker 2: What would happen? I'll say, my husband. I love my husband. 177 00:09:35,436 --> 00:09:38,116 Speaker 2: I respect my husband so much, so why would I 178 00:09:38,196 --> 00:09:39,676 Speaker 2: lie to my husband? 179 00:09:39,716 --> 00:09:39,876 Speaker 1: Why? 180 00:09:39,956 --> 00:09:41,796 Speaker 2: What about you, maya? Why would you lie to their 181 00:09:41,876 --> 00:09:44,516 Speaker 2: face of someone you even really do respect? 182 00:09:44,676 --> 00:09:46,236 Speaker 1: Because I didn't want to hurt their feelings. 183 00:09:46,836 --> 00:09:49,076 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't want to hurt their fe feeling secure. 184 00:09:48,796 --> 00:09:50,676 Speaker 1: About the fact that I had made a big mistake 185 00:09:50,756 --> 00:09:52,356 Speaker 1: and I feel really embarrassed about it. 186 00:09:52,556 --> 00:09:56,236 Speaker 2: And I love that one. It's so interesting people think 187 00:09:56,276 --> 00:09:58,276 Speaker 2: when kids that say lie to their face, and they'll 188 00:09:58,276 --> 00:10:00,036 Speaker 2: also say they don't respect me. They'll also say, and 189 00:10:00,036 --> 00:10:02,556 Speaker 2: I've said this throughout my kids too, We're like, well, 190 00:10:02,556 --> 00:10:05,076 Speaker 2: because they're a sociopath. I call that the fast forward, 191 00:10:05,156 --> 00:10:07,316 Speaker 2: or we just like create a whole persona for our 192 00:10:07,356 --> 00:10:09,756 Speaker 2: kids forever based on the behavior. Well, they're just sociopath. 193 00:10:09,756 --> 00:10:13,076 Speaker 2: They have no empathy. The reason kids lie and the 194 00:10:13,076 --> 00:10:16,756 Speaker 2: reasons adults lie often is actually because they feel so 195 00:10:17,076 --> 00:10:21,236 Speaker 2: guilty about the thing they did that they can no 196 00:10:21,316 --> 00:10:26,516 Speaker 2: longer separate that bad behavior from their identity. So if 197 00:10:26,596 --> 00:10:29,356 Speaker 2: lying to someone's face is so bad and lying or 198 00:10:29,396 --> 00:10:32,916 Speaker 2: pushing down someone's tower. Even if pushing down the tower 199 00:10:33,516 --> 00:10:35,716 Speaker 2: is so bad that I then feel like a horrible, 200 00:10:35,876 --> 00:10:39,076 Speaker 2: unlovable person, I will lie to anyone's face all day 201 00:10:39,156 --> 00:10:40,676 Speaker 2: just so I don't have to face the reality of 202 00:10:40,716 --> 00:10:44,356 Speaker 2: what I did. Understanding my kid's behavior does not mean 203 00:10:44,396 --> 00:10:47,676 Speaker 2: I'm approving of my kid's behavior. But if we're curious 204 00:10:47,676 --> 00:10:51,076 Speaker 2: about let's say, lying about pushing down a tower, now 205 00:10:51,076 --> 00:10:53,276 Speaker 2: we can actually get to the core of it. Now 206 00:10:53,316 --> 00:10:55,436 Speaker 2: we can say, okay, so what would my kid need 207 00:10:55,476 --> 00:10:59,116 Speaker 2: in that moment to actually manage how guilty they feel 208 00:10:59,436 --> 00:11:01,996 Speaker 2: and to know I'm a safe person to tell bad 209 00:11:02,036 --> 00:11:05,396 Speaker 2: things to Ooh, Now, all of a sudden, I'm gonna 210 00:11:05,436 --> 00:11:07,556 Speaker 2: make short term and long term change. 211 00:11:08,076 --> 00:11:09,756 Speaker 1: And this, I mean this does to one of the 212 00:11:10,036 --> 00:11:13,156 Speaker 1: second benefits of the good inside approach. It prevents shame 213 00:11:13,196 --> 00:11:15,716 Speaker 1: in kids and it gives them the feeling of being 214 00:11:15,756 --> 00:11:18,756 Speaker 1: empowered with a good self that they can then improve. 215 00:11:18,876 --> 00:11:21,636 Speaker 1: So tell me a bit more about that and what 216 00:11:21,676 --> 00:11:23,716 Speaker 1: we do when we make kids feel like they're actually 217 00:11:23,716 --> 00:11:24,436 Speaker 1: bad kids. 218 00:11:24,956 --> 00:11:28,996 Speaker 2: There's a phrase I think about a lot in psychology literature, 219 00:11:29,036 --> 00:11:32,756 Speaker 2: which is I am as I am seen, And I 220 00:11:32,796 --> 00:11:36,916 Speaker 2: think this really relates to kids development, meaning if as 221 00:11:36,956 --> 00:11:39,716 Speaker 2: a parent you think of yourself as a child's mirror, 222 00:11:40,676 --> 00:11:44,836 Speaker 2: then you are reflecting to them who they are, and 223 00:11:44,956 --> 00:11:48,316 Speaker 2: kids take in the reflection and form how they think 224 00:11:48,316 --> 00:11:50,756 Speaker 2: about themselves and their self concept. This is one of 225 00:11:50,756 --> 00:11:53,356 Speaker 2: my biggest problems with how common it is to just 226 00:11:53,396 --> 00:11:56,156 Speaker 2: send kids away when they're struggling, or punish them, or 227 00:11:56,596 --> 00:11:59,596 Speaker 2: just see them as their behavior. We are trying to 228 00:11:59,716 --> 00:12:06,516 Speaker 2: promote quote good behavior by reinforcing their bad identity. Like again, 229 00:12:06,596 --> 00:12:08,956 Speaker 2: just from a logic perspective, and like, why would that work. 230 00:12:09,756 --> 00:12:12,276 Speaker 2: I'm telling my kid they're a bad kid and expecting 231 00:12:12,316 --> 00:12:16,836 Speaker 2: them to be good, And so so many parents will 232 00:12:16,836 --> 00:12:19,716 Speaker 2: say in the midst of a tantrum, they'll carry them 233 00:12:19,836 --> 00:12:22,316 Speaker 2: out of a room because they're just struggling to stay calm, 234 00:12:22,716 --> 00:12:24,716 Speaker 2: bring them to their room, not to put them there, 235 00:12:24,796 --> 00:12:28,476 Speaker 2: to sit with them there, and they'll say, you're a 236 00:12:28,516 --> 00:12:31,436 Speaker 2: good kid having a hard time. And so many parents 237 00:12:31,476 --> 00:12:33,396 Speaker 2: will say when they they're like, when I said that 238 00:12:33,436 --> 00:12:35,796 Speaker 2: for the first time, it felt powerful to me. I 239 00:12:35,876 --> 00:12:39,436 Speaker 2: watched something happen for my kid. I watched it because 240 00:12:39,476 --> 00:12:42,156 Speaker 2: when they feel like they're a good person having a 241 00:12:42,196 --> 00:12:44,876 Speaker 2: hard time, now all of a sudden, they're in the 242 00:12:44,916 --> 00:12:49,556 Speaker 2: mindset of, oh, yeah, so what could I do? What's 243 00:12:49,596 --> 00:12:52,516 Speaker 2: possible to have less of a hard time. One of 244 00:12:52,556 --> 00:12:54,396 Speaker 2: the things I tend to say in sessions to parents 245 00:12:54,516 --> 00:12:56,276 Speaker 2: is i'd say, look, there's a lot of stuff going on, 246 00:12:56,316 --> 00:12:58,396 Speaker 2: and I promise you I'm actually going to help you 247 00:12:58,476 --> 00:13:00,236 Speaker 2: shift it. But I just want to start by saying, 248 00:13:02,276 --> 00:13:06,196 Speaker 2: I like your kid. I like your kid, and may's 249 00:13:06,236 --> 00:13:08,436 Speaker 2: so interesting. I feel like eighty percent of the time 250 00:13:08,636 --> 00:13:10,116 Speaker 2: when the parents would cry and. 251 00:13:10,116 --> 00:13:11,676 Speaker 1: I feel like I'm gonna cry right now. 252 00:13:12,236 --> 00:13:14,436 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think it was like probably the first 253 00:13:14,476 --> 00:13:18,516 Speaker 2: time maybe they had heard someone, especially quote a professional 254 00:13:18,636 --> 00:13:21,836 Speaker 2: like say that the teachers always and I don't mean 255 00:13:21,876 --> 00:13:23,876 Speaker 2: to throw teachers under the bus, teachers aren't doing. Everyone's 256 00:13:23,916 --> 00:13:25,876 Speaker 2: doing the best we can in these impossible situations. But 257 00:13:25,876 --> 00:13:28,036 Speaker 2: they would have had teachers who are like, your kid's 258 00:13:28,076 --> 00:13:30,996 Speaker 2: the troublemaker, your kid's getting suspended, or they saw a 259 00:13:31,076 --> 00:13:33,276 Speaker 2: clinician who worked a different way, who'd give them some 260 00:13:33,396 --> 00:13:36,836 Speaker 2: label like your kid is oppositional defiant disorder and you're like, wow, 261 00:13:36,916 --> 00:13:39,596 Speaker 2: like that's not a nice term for my child, okay, 262 00:13:40,076 --> 00:13:43,036 Speaker 2: And starting with like I really like your kid, and 263 00:13:43,156 --> 00:13:45,796 Speaker 2: by the way the behaviors. No, no, totally not Okay, 264 00:13:45,836 --> 00:13:47,796 Speaker 2: we're gonna fix it. But I really like your kid 265 00:13:48,116 --> 00:13:53,276 Speaker 2: really was this manifestation of behavior is not identity. Like 266 00:13:53,356 --> 00:13:56,156 Speaker 2: there's a good kid, a in pain kid, probably a 267 00:13:56,196 --> 00:14:00,916 Speaker 2: smart kid, a freaking funny kid, a really really motivated 268 00:14:01,116 --> 00:14:05,116 Speaker 2: driven kid underneath these really difficult behaviors. And I think 269 00:14:05,156 --> 00:14:08,196 Speaker 2: when you start in seeing that, you intervene totally differently 270 00:14:08,276 --> 00:14:09,596 Speaker 2: in a way that feels better or to the kid 271 00:14:09,596 --> 00:14:12,076 Speaker 2: and the parent, and honestly in a way that also 272 00:14:12,156 --> 00:14:14,516 Speaker 2: is just much more effective for behavior change. 273 00:14:14,876 --> 00:14:17,356 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, it's really interesting because when you think 274 00:14:17,356 --> 00:14:20,276 Speaker 1: about little kids, right, their prefrontal cortices are not developed. 275 00:14:20,396 --> 00:14:22,716 Speaker 1: They have a really hard time with self control. You 276 00:14:22,756 --> 00:14:26,236 Speaker 1: could subscribe to the Pavlovian model of things here, which is, Okay, 277 00:14:26,636 --> 00:14:29,196 Speaker 1: you do a bad thing and there's a punishment, and 278 00:14:29,236 --> 00:14:31,756 Speaker 1: so the kid does less of the bad thing. But 279 00:14:31,836 --> 00:14:33,756 Speaker 1: why is it that you think that that's not the 280 00:14:33,836 --> 00:14:36,276 Speaker 1: right way for us to engage with kids. 281 00:14:36,596 --> 00:14:39,236 Speaker 2: So let's say maybe I'm mad that my mom said 282 00:14:39,236 --> 00:14:41,356 Speaker 2: I can of a sleepover came out as I hate you, 283 00:14:41,396 --> 00:14:43,516 Speaker 2: and my mom says, go to your room, and by 284 00:14:43,516 --> 00:14:46,876 Speaker 2: the way, no dessert or no iPhone whatever it is 285 00:14:46,916 --> 00:14:49,156 Speaker 2: for a week. Okay, So you're like, okay, so they 286 00:14:49,196 --> 00:14:51,036 Speaker 2: get a punishment, won't they learn not to do that? 287 00:14:51,876 --> 00:14:54,356 Speaker 2: To me, what a kid really isn'tencoding in their body 288 00:14:55,116 --> 00:15:00,556 Speaker 2: is when I feel mad, that leads to problems in 289 00:15:00,596 --> 00:15:03,676 Speaker 2: my relationship and I don't get the things I want, 290 00:15:04,076 --> 00:15:09,036 Speaker 2: so I will push away mad. Mad is bad. Okay, 291 00:15:09,916 --> 00:15:13,676 Speaker 2: that is not a long term strategy to manage mad, 292 00:15:13,756 --> 00:15:16,196 Speaker 2: because we can't get rid of mad. And so if 293 00:15:16,276 --> 00:15:20,916 Speaker 2: mad by the time I'm twenty five has learned zero skills. Literally, 294 00:15:21,276 --> 00:15:23,276 Speaker 2: I now have the same amount of skills to manage 295 00:15:23,356 --> 00:15:25,716 Speaker 2: anger as I did when I was born, like zero, 296 00:15:26,276 --> 00:15:30,716 Speaker 2: I have developed a system to try to push it away. Okay, 297 00:15:31,156 --> 00:15:34,876 Speaker 2: you know what happens when you push away anger, You 298 00:15:34,956 --> 00:15:38,276 Speaker 2: are literally building the pressure in your body, getting ready 299 00:15:38,316 --> 00:15:41,316 Speaker 2: for a moment where it's going to explode out of you. 300 00:15:41,836 --> 00:15:45,436 Speaker 2: The feelings always win, they explode out of our body. 301 00:15:45,516 --> 00:15:48,396 Speaker 1: They explode, or they're internalized with deep shame. 302 00:15:48,636 --> 00:15:51,436 Speaker 2: Or they're internalized deep shame with health problems we know 303 00:15:51,556 --> 00:15:54,836 Speaker 2: people have, right, I mean, so many things that repressed 304 00:15:55,036 --> 00:15:59,036 Speaker 2: or suppressed or pushed away feelings lead to now I 305 00:15:59,076 --> 00:16:01,036 Speaker 2: want to show the opposite because I think people really 306 00:16:01,036 --> 00:16:03,716 Speaker 2: misunderstand this. And I've never considered good Inside to be 307 00:16:03,836 --> 00:16:05,956 Speaker 2: quote gentle parenting, but people kind of put us in 308 00:16:05,956 --> 00:16:08,996 Speaker 2: that category, so they'll say, oh, so it's just a 309 00:16:09,156 --> 00:16:12,276 Speaker 2: okay that my kid says I hate you. Like, here's 310 00:16:12,396 --> 00:16:15,196 Speaker 2: what an intervention from good inside would not look like 311 00:16:15,276 --> 00:16:19,036 Speaker 2: or sound like, Oh, sweet, you have such big feelings. 312 00:16:19,636 --> 00:16:23,036 Speaker 2: You really want to sleep over? Let that anger out? 313 00:16:23,236 --> 00:16:26,636 Speaker 2: No no, no, no, no, no no no. Here's what 314 00:16:26,716 --> 00:16:30,916 Speaker 2: I'm talking about as like a sturdy intervention. Hey, you're 315 00:16:30,956 --> 00:16:34,036 Speaker 2: really upset that you can't have a sleepover. I get it. 316 00:16:34,396 --> 00:16:37,076 Speaker 2: I also know there's another way you can say that 317 00:16:37,116 --> 00:16:39,956 Speaker 2: to me. And I care about your being disappointed, and 318 00:16:40,036 --> 00:16:42,596 Speaker 2: I'd love to talk that out with you. And we 319 00:16:42,676 --> 00:16:44,596 Speaker 2: can do that when we both take a couple of 320 00:16:44,636 --> 00:16:48,116 Speaker 2: deep breaths and use other language, like I'm actually teaching 321 00:16:48,196 --> 00:16:51,596 Speaker 2: my kid it's okay to be mad. Kids can never 322 00:16:51,716 --> 00:16:55,156 Speaker 2: learn to regulate feelings. We don't allow them to have. 323 00:16:55,916 --> 00:16:58,116 Speaker 2: The only true strategy we ever have with our kids 324 00:16:58,196 --> 00:17:00,476 Speaker 2: is our relationship with them. Our kids will all get 325 00:17:00,476 --> 00:17:02,156 Speaker 2: to an age, and it's all sooner than we think 326 00:17:02,356 --> 00:17:06,636 Speaker 2: where they're basically like wait, I'm big now, Like you 327 00:17:06,756 --> 00:17:09,556 Speaker 2: literally can't put me in a time out and I 328 00:17:09,636 --> 00:17:13,116 Speaker 2: literally don't give two shits about your stickers, Like seriously, 329 00:17:13,156 --> 00:17:17,036 Speaker 2: that's what they're gonna say. And so the only thing 330 00:17:17,316 --> 00:17:21,436 Speaker 2: between us is the quality of our relationship, is how 331 00:17:21,436 --> 00:17:23,796 Speaker 2: connected we are. And I just don't know anyone who 332 00:17:23,796 --> 00:17:25,996 Speaker 2: looks back in their childhood. And it's like, when my 333 00:17:26,116 --> 00:17:29,156 Speaker 2: parents sent me to my room, it was so productive. 334 00:17:29,196 --> 00:17:31,716 Speaker 2: I was just like googling, like how to express my 335 00:17:31,756 --> 00:17:33,716 Speaker 2: anger in a healthy way, and I was kind of 336 00:17:33,756 --> 00:17:36,116 Speaker 2: sitting in my bed being like, it is really true, 337 00:17:36,596 --> 00:17:39,316 Speaker 2: my parent is helping me reflect. No, you know what 338 00:17:39,356 --> 00:17:43,236 Speaker 2: you're doing. You're thinking about how misunderstood you are. You 339 00:17:43,316 --> 00:17:45,716 Speaker 2: are thinking about how mad you are that your iPad 340 00:17:45,756 --> 00:17:49,556 Speaker 2: was just taken away, which literally stops you from thinking 341 00:17:49,596 --> 00:17:53,756 Speaker 2: about the behavior in the first place. You have righteous indignation. 342 00:17:54,276 --> 00:17:58,716 Speaker 2: It is so counterproductive. In reality, it just feels good 343 00:17:58,716 --> 00:18:01,636 Speaker 2: to a parent because you get to vomit your frustration 344 00:18:02,116 --> 00:18:06,796 Speaker 2: onto your kid momentarily, and you have the illusion of 345 00:18:06,876 --> 00:18:09,916 Speaker 2: having an impact because in the moment they look upset 346 00:18:09,996 --> 00:18:10,876 Speaker 2: by your consequence. 347 00:18:11,276 --> 00:18:14,076 Speaker 1: And on that point, I think it's valuable to share 348 00:18:14,116 --> 00:18:17,716 Speaker 1: that you don't see the good inside principles simply applying 349 00:18:17,716 --> 00:18:21,196 Speaker 1: to children. It applies to parents. And this is so 350 00:18:21,356 --> 00:18:25,396 Speaker 1: important because how many friends of mine are crippled by guilt, 351 00:18:25,756 --> 00:18:28,476 Speaker 1: are so frustrated that they aren't the parent they wish 352 00:18:28,556 --> 00:18:30,956 Speaker 1: they were going to be, who get annoyed every time 353 00:18:31,076 --> 00:18:33,876 Speaker 1: they find themselves yelling because they committed to themselves not 354 00:18:33,916 --> 00:18:35,796 Speaker 1: to yell. And so talk to me a bit more 355 00:18:35,836 --> 00:18:39,356 Speaker 1: about how we can avoid shame spirals and all sorts 356 00:18:39,356 --> 00:18:42,516 Speaker 1: of other counterproductive things that parents do when they're all 357 00:18:42,516 --> 00:18:43,316 Speaker 1: just trying their best. 358 00:18:43,916 --> 00:18:47,516 Speaker 2: Yes, it is the exact same thing the approach does 359 00:18:47,556 --> 00:18:52,836 Speaker 2: for parents, right, I mean, it's such a bigger picture conversation. 360 00:18:53,036 --> 00:18:55,916 Speaker 2: But like we are in a messed up system as parents. 361 00:18:56,116 --> 00:18:59,596 Speaker 2: We are not set up for success, like we are 362 00:18:59,636 --> 00:19:02,956 Speaker 2: not given training for this, and no, parenting does not 363 00:19:02,996 --> 00:19:05,236 Speaker 2: come natural. And for women, know, there's not some quote 364 00:19:05,236 --> 00:19:08,036 Speaker 2: maternal instinct that is a concept someone else made up 365 00:19:08,076 --> 00:19:10,436 Speaker 2: to make us feel bad about ours and keep us small. 366 00:19:10,556 --> 00:19:14,356 Speaker 3: Preach, girl, preach, it really is like I love it 367 00:19:14,836 --> 00:19:18,756 Speaker 3: that that And you know, I often think that good 368 00:19:18,756 --> 00:19:21,476 Speaker 3: insight is like a language parents are learning, and really 369 00:19:21,516 --> 00:19:22,596 Speaker 3: the language. 370 00:19:22,156 --> 00:19:26,036 Speaker 2: Of parenting we all speak naturally, is the language we 371 00:19:26,036 --> 00:19:30,156 Speaker 2: were parented in, simply, And if I told you, hey, 372 00:19:30,236 --> 00:19:32,956 Speaker 2: I was brought up speaking English and I really want 373 00:19:32,956 --> 00:19:35,716 Speaker 2: to bring up my kids in Mandarin, I think you 374 00:19:35,716 --> 00:19:38,756 Speaker 2: would tell me, WHOA Okay, Like, first of all, that's amazing, 375 00:19:39,156 --> 00:19:42,676 Speaker 2: that that's going to be challenging. It's definitely possible. But 376 00:19:42,796 --> 00:19:45,316 Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure you would also say to me in 377 00:19:45,356 --> 00:19:48,756 Speaker 2: my most high stress moments with my kids, like I'd 378 00:19:48,756 --> 00:19:51,556 Speaker 2: probably revert to English. I just would write like, and 379 00:19:51,636 --> 00:19:55,076 Speaker 2: that doesn't mean my Mandarin isn't coming along. It doesn't 380 00:19:55,076 --> 00:19:56,836 Speaker 2: mean all is lost and I messed up my kids 381 00:19:56,836 --> 00:19:59,036 Speaker 2: forever and now they'll never know Mandarin. We say this 382 00:19:59,036 --> 00:20:00,716 Speaker 2: to ourselves all the time, like I'm trying to connect 383 00:20:00,716 --> 00:20:02,436 Speaker 2: to my kids and I yelled at them and I 384 00:20:02,436 --> 00:20:05,436 Speaker 2: called them a spoiled brad and I mess them up forever. No, 385 00:20:05,756 --> 00:20:09,436 Speaker 2: Like that was a high stress moment you reverted, right, 386 00:20:09,796 --> 00:20:11,796 Speaker 2: I forgot who said this to me. I'm going to 387 00:20:11,876 --> 00:20:13,796 Speaker 2: say too, because it's so powerful, I have to get 388 00:20:13,836 --> 00:20:16,036 Speaker 2: it right. Kind of like in a high stress moments, 389 00:20:16,036 --> 00:20:18,036 Speaker 2: we don't rise to the occasion. We fall to the 390 00:20:18,116 --> 00:20:21,516 Speaker 2: level of our training. And that doesn't mean you're a 391 00:20:21,516 --> 00:20:25,836 Speaker 2: horrible person. Let's take away that shame. Let's stay connected 392 00:20:25,836 --> 00:20:29,596 Speaker 2: to yourself. That whole idea of behavior versus identity. That's 393 00:20:29,596 --> 00:20:31,516 Speaker 2: how I calm myself down after I yell up my kids. 394 00:20:31,516 --> 00:20:34,196 Speaker 2: I say, Becky, I'm a good parent who is having 395 00:20:34,196 --> 00:20:37,916 Speaker 2: a hard time. I am not defined by my latest behavior. 396 00:20:38,036 --> 00:20:40,596 Speaker 2: I'm good inside. I'm good inside. And then you know 397 00:20:40,636 --> 00:20:42,956 Speaker 2: what I do next, because yes, that's my responsibility as 398 00:20:42,996 --> 00:20:45,636 Speaker 2: I go back to skills. What skills do I need? 399 00:20:46,236 --> 00:20:48,636 Speaker 2: Do I have to pay attention to my exhaustion sooner? 400 00:20:48,876 --> 00:20:52,076 Speaker 2: Because if I don't guess what, it explodes as anger 401 00:20:52,116 --> 00:20:54,276 Speaker 2: toward my kid. You know what, I actually haven't worked 402 00:20:54,276 --> 00:20:56,756 Speaker 2: out this week or really seen my friends, And those 403 00:20:56,796 --> 00:21:00,396 Speaker 2: are ways I take care of my non caregiving parts 404 00:21:00,396 --> 00:21:02,916 Speaker 2: of myself, and so I know I need to do 405 00:21:02,956 --> 00:21:05,596 Speaker 2: that so I don't get to my breaking point as soon. 406 00:21:06,236 --> 00:21:11,836 Speaker 2: And it's really that same system applied to ourselves. 407 00:21:12,236 --> 00:21:15,636 Speaker 1: After the break. Becky shares strategies for putting these ideas 408 00:21:15,716 --> 00:21:18,556 Speaker 1: into practice. We'll be back in a moment with a 409 00:21:18,596 --> 00:21:28,436 Speaker 1: slight change of plans. So let's say there's a listener 410 00:21:28,476 --> 00:21:30,596 Speaker 1: out there. This is the first time they're acquainting themselves 411 00:21:30,636 --> 00:21:32,796 Speaker 1: with a good inside approach, and they're like, Okay, Becky, 412 00:21:33,316 --> 00:21:37,716 Speaker 1: I'm committing to this. I need to put this into practice, though, great, 413 00:21:38,236 --> 00:21:41,796 Speaker 1: tell me about this concept of the most generous interpretation. 414 00:21:42,636 --> 00:21:44,436 Speaker 2: So first off, you're listening to this and this is 415 00:21:44,436 --> 00:21:46,996 Speaker 2: a new idea, and you're still listening, and I mean 416 00:21:46,996 --> 00:21:48,316 Speaker 2: this in the bottom of my heart. I hope you 417 00:21:48,436 --> 00:21:51,676 Speaker 2: give yourself credit for the bravery it takes to consider 418 00:21:51,756 --> 00:21:55,196 Speaker 2: something new. It's such a brave thing and you obviously 419 00:21:55,276 --> 00:21:57,916 Speaker 2: know this better than anyone. To even consider taking a 420 00:21:57,916 --> 00:22:00,516 Speaker 2: different path is so vulnerable because we're faced with like, oh, 421 00:22:00,916 --> 00:22:03,156 Speaker 2: did I do it wrong? Did I mess up my kid? 422 00:22:03,196 --> 00:22:03,516 Speaker 1: Forever? 423 00:22:03,716 --> 00:22:06,236 Speaker 2: My answer is no to both questions. And by the way, 424 00:22:06,316 --> 00:22:08,076 Speaker 2: if you take a different path, you'll be like me. 425 00:22:08,156 --> 00:22:10,996 Speaker 2: There'll still be moments you yourself saying go to your room, no, 426 00:22:11,036 --> 00:22:12,356 Speaker 2: I bet for a week and then I'm like, why 427 00:22:12,356 --> 00:22:13,756 Speaker 2: did I say that? I just I don't want to 428 00:22:13,756 --> 00:22:15,236 Speaker 2: say that. Why did I say that? Like we all 429 00:22:15,276 --> 00:22:18,236 Speaker 2: say these things. No one is perfect, definitely not me. 430 00:22:19,076 --> 00:22:22,036 Speaker 2: I do think like you said, this concept of MGI 431 00:22:22,236 --> 00:22:27,036 Speaker 2: most generous interpretation is such a concrete way to start 432 00:22:27,356 --> 00:22:32,596 Speaker 2: thinking in a different way. So really, the simple exercise 433 00:22:32,916 --> 00:22:36,596 Speaker 2: is everybody, right now, think about a behavior in your kid, 434 00:22:36,756 --> 00:22:38,636 Speaker 2: or could be your partner, or your colleague or your 435 00:22:38,636 --> 00:22:41,836 Speaker 2: mother in law, whoever it is that feels like a 436 00:22:41,876 --> 00:22:44,196 Speaker 2: bad behavior and it's kind of something that gets under 437 00:22:44,276 --> 00:22:48,916 Speaker 2: your skin. So maybe I'll say, for my daughter, it's 438 00:22:49,276 --> 00:22:52,156 Speaker 2: screaming at me when she could just say I didn't 439 00:22:52,196 --> 00:22:52,996 Speaker 2: like that, right. 440 00:22:52,956 --> 00:22:56,476 Speaker 1: Screaming colleague of mine who interrupts me in meetings when 441 00:22:56,516 --> 00:22:56,916 Speaker 1: I'm mid. 442 00:22:56,876 --> 00:23:01,596 Speaker 2: Perfect, perfect example, my colleague is always interrupting me. And 443 00:23:01,636 --> 00:23:03,516 Speaker 2: then just ask yourself this screamy. 444 00:23:03,116 --> 00:23:06,396 Speaker 1: I just interrupted you. Sorry to make that point. 445 00:23:06,436 --> 00:23:09,596 Speaker 2: Whoops. So I would say, what is my my most 446 00:23:09,716 --> 00:23:14,556 Speaker 2: generous interpretation of Maya's interrupting me? Right? But what is 447 00:23:14,636 --> 00:23:17,196 Speaker 2: my most generous interpretation of and then fill in the blank, 448 00:23:17,236 --> 00:23:22,876 Speaker 2: what is my most generous interpretation of my daughter continuing 449 00:23:22,876 --> 00:23:25,116 Speaker 2: to jump on the couch after I said, please stop 450 00:23:25,156 --> 00:23:27,316 Speaker 2: jumping on the couch. What is my most generous interpretation 451 00:23:27,356 --> 00:23:28,836 Speaker 2: of my daughter lying to my face? What is my 452 00:23:28,876 --> 00:23:33,836 Speaker 2: most generous interpretation of why my partner came home after 453 00:23:33,956 --> 00:23:36,876 Speaker 2: six pm when we had talked about my partner coming 454 00:23:36,916 --> 00:23:40,036 Speaker 2: home at five thirty pm? And to be clear, when 455 00:23:40,076 --> 00:23:43,036 Speaker 2: you come up with the most generous interpretation, the action 456 00:23:43,196 --> 00:23:45,716 Speaker 2: you take next isn't saying to the other person it's 457 00:23:45,756 --> 00:23:49,836 Speaker 2: fine that you did that. No, What a most generous 458 00:23:49,876 --> 00:23:54,196 Speaker 2: interpretation lens does for you is it always helps you 459 00:23:54,276 --> 00:23:58,156 Speaker 2: see that there is a good person under a bad behavior. 460 00:23:59,276 --> 00:24:03,556 Speaker 2: And what it really does is it helps you think, like, well, 461 00:24:03,716 --> 00:24:06,116 Speaker 2: what was going on for that person, Like what else 462 00:24:06,556 --> 00:24:09,636 Speaker 2: could have been their positive intent even if it wasn't 463 00:24:10,156 --> 00:24:12,596 Speaker 2: acted out in their behavior. And what it does is 464 00:24:12,636 --> 00:24:16,356 Speaker 2: it also helps you intervene from a place of groundedness 465 00:24:16,916 --> 00:24:20,996 Speaker 2: and of seeing the other person as a teammate. Me 466 00:24:21,116 --> 00:24:26,036 Speaker 2: and Maya are on a team against interrupting. Me and 467 00:24:26,076 --> 00:24:31,436 Speaker 2: my husband are on a team against poor communication around 468 00:24:31,436 --> 00:24:33,396 Speaker 2: what time he was going to be home from work. 469 00:24:33,836 --> 00:24:36,556 Speaker 2: Me and my daughter are actually on the same team 470 00:24:36,836 --> 00:24:40,036 Speaker 2: against this hitting problem because the truth is she doesn't 471 00:24:40,036 --> 00:24:42,516 Speaker 2: want to be doing it either, and that changes everything. 472 00:24:43,436 --> 00:24:45,636 Speaker 1: You talk in your book about one of the most 473 00:24:45,716 --> 00:24:49,716 Speaker 1: important tools for parents being the concept of repair. So 474 00:24:49,756 --> 00:24:53,236 Speaker 1: tell me more about rupture and repair and how owning 475 00:24:53,356 --> 00:24:55,236 Speaker 1: this as a parent can actually improve things. 476 00:24:55,796 --> 00:25:00,236 Speaker 2: So a rupture is really any moment in a relationship 477 00:25:00,476 --> 00:25:03,876 Speaker 2: where you feel disconnected, A rupture is me yelling at 478 00:25:03,876 --> 00:25:07,076 Speaker 2: my kid what's wrong with you? Or me calling them 479 00:25:07,236 --> 00:25:09,636 Speaker 2: you know a name, I cannot believe you freak out 480 00:25:09,636 --> 00:25:12,716 Speaker 2: in that toy story. You're such a spoiled brat. A 481 00:25:12,796 --> 00:25:15,036 Speaker 2: rupture can also be my kid wanting to talk to 482 00:25:15,076 --> 00:25:17,676 Speaker 2: me about something and me invalidating it or rushing past it. 483 00:25:17,676 --> 00:25:20,076 Speaker 2: I'm really upset about not making the soccer team. Oh 484 00:25:20,116 --> 00:25:21,756 Speaker 2: you're so dramatic. It's not a big deal. You made 485 00:25:21,756 --> 00:25:24,156 Speaker 2: a basketball team. That could be a rupture too. So 486 00:25:24,236 --> 00:25:27,196 Speaker 2: it's really like a break in your connection with someone, 487 00:25:28,476 --> 00:25:33,196 Speaker 2: and a repair is the process of going back to 488 00:25:33,236 --> 00:25:40,156 Speaker 2: that moment of disconnection, taking responsibility for your part in 489 00:25:40,156 --> 00:25:45,356 Speaker 2: that event, helping the other person understand it in a 490 00:25:45,396 --> 00:25:48,596 Speaker 2: different way, and I think also stating what you would 491 00:25:48,596 --> 00:25:52,756 Speaker 2: do differently the next time. Events in and of themselves 492 00:25:53,556 --> 00:25:57,076 Speaker 2: are not what have a negative impact on kids, and 493 00:25:57,116 --> 00:25:59,796 Speaker 2: so actually this understanding is huge. So an event like 494 00:26:00,036 --> 00:26:03,276 Speaker 2: I just screamed my head off at my kids, now, 495 00:26:03,556 --> 00:26:05,996 Speaker 2: is that an amazing event for a kid? Of course not. 496 00:26:06,036 --> 00:26:09,636 Speaker 2: It's not a great event. But that event isn't having 497 00:26:09,796 --> 00:26:12,316 Speaker 2: the impact on your kids that you think it is. 498 00:26:12,876 --> 00:26:16,556 Speaker 2: What has an impact on a kid and their development 499 00:26:17,316 --> 00:26:22,436 Speaker 2: is how an event gets processed. For them, It's actually 500 00:26:22,476 --> 00:26:26,276 Speaker 2: more about what happens after the event. There's two things 501 00:26:26,316 --> 00:26:29,436 Speaker 2: that can happen. An event is followed by a loneeness 502 00:26:29,836 --> 00:26:31,956 Speaker 2: and nobody ever talks to me about it, and no 503 00:26:31,956 --> 00:26:35,156 Speaker 2: one ever mentions it again. So after an overwhelming event, 504 00:26:35,236 --> 00:26:36,916 Speaker 2: I guess I'm just a five year old trying to 505 00:26:36,956 --> 00:26:39,676 Speaker 2: process this on my own. There's that, or there's the 506 00:26:39,716 --> 00:26:43,276 Speaker 2: same event, and then after, at some point, I have 507 00:26:43,356 --> 00:26:47,996 Speaker 2: a loving, safe, trusted adult who connects with me and 508 00:26:48,116 --> 00:26:52,436 Speaker 2: helps me understand that event and gives me more coherence 509 00:26:52,716 --> 00:26:57,356 Speaker 2: about the event and helps me regulate my feelings through 510 00:26:57,356 --> 00:27:02,596 Speaker 2: that process. Same event, two totally different ways of processing 511 00:27:02,636 --> 00:27:08,156 Speaker 2: it and two completely different outcomes, And the difference is 512 00:27:08,236 --> 00:27:12,196 Speaker 2: actually all about the relationship we have with someone after 513 00:27:12,276 --> 00:27:12,716 Speaker 2: the event. 514 00:27:13,836 --> 00:27:16,556 Speaker 1: Yeah, you have a great quote, which is that repair 515 00:27:16,676 --> 00:27:20,356 Speaker 1: gives a not great chapter a different ending and allows 516 00:27:20,396 --> 00:27:22,596 Speaker 1: for a different lesson to be learned. In this case, 517 00:27:22,636 --> 00:27:24,676 Speaker 1: the not great chapter was yelling at your kid. 518 00:27:24,876 --> 00:27:28,676 Speaker 2: Yes, so a repair for yelling at my son might 519 00:27:28,716 --> 00:27:31,756 Speaker 2: sound like, Hey, earlier today, I screamed at you in 520 00:27:31,756 --> 00:27:36,636 Speaker 2: the kitchen and I'm sorry, and I think I was 521 00:27:36,676 --> 00:27:38,596 Speaker 2: just having a really hard time. I was stressed, and 522 00:27:38,636 --> 00:27:41,396 Speaker 2: that came out as a yell. It wasn't your fault. 523 00:27:41,836 --> 00:27:45,796 Speaker 2: And I'm working on managing my own frustration so even 524 00:27:45,836 --> 00:27:48,276 Speaker 2: when I'm frustrated, it doesn't come out in a yell. 525 00:27:48,796 --> 00:27:51,636 Speaker 2: And if that all seems too complicated, just saying to 526 00:27:51,676 --> 00:27:55,836 Speaker 2: a kid, I'm sorry I yelled, that wasn't your fault. 527 00:27:56,316 --> 00:27:59,756 Speaker 2: I love you is like shorthand, and I'm happy to 528 00:27:59,796 --> 00:28:02,596 Speaker 2: double click on it wasn't your fault because I know 529 00:28:02,756 --> 00:28:04,836 Speaker 2: it's like kind of a complicated thing because. 530 00:28:04,716 --> 00:28:06,476 Speaker 1: Because you're like, it is kind of your fault because 531 00:28:06,476 --> 00:28:09,076 Speaker 1: it is through your dinner all over the room, and yeah, 532 00:28:09,236 --> 00:28:13,756 Speaker 1: that me for whatever. Yeah, so how do you get there? 533 00:28:13,316 --> 00:28:18,036 Speaker 2: Here's how I get there. I was having some set 534 00:28:18,076 --> 00:28:21,956 Speaker 2: of feelings that were bigger than my ability to regulate 535 00:28:22,036 --> 00:28:25,036 Speaker 2: those feelings. That has to do with the event in 536 00:28:25,076 --> 00:28:29,396 Speaker 2: front of me. But honestly, it's the hard truth. My 537 00:28:29,556 --> 00:28:34,836 Speaker 2: regulation skills and patterns predated my son's existence, like they're 538 00:28:34,916 --> 00:28:36,916 Speaker 2: in my body. Like how able am I in general 539 00:28:36,956 --> 00:28:39,356 Speaker 2: to deal with the frustration? How able am I to 540 00:28:39,476 --> 00:28:43,556 Speaker 2: keep myself regulated and grounded when I'm upset? How able 541 00:28:43,596 --> 00:28:45,996 Speaker 2: am I to communicate with someone when I'm frustrated with 542 00:28:46,036 --> 00:28:48,636 Speaker 2: them in a way that's still respectful. Those things have 543 00:28:48,676 --> 00:28:52,036 Speaker 2: to do with me. He didn't quote make me yell. 544 00:28:52,236 --> 00:28:55,956 Speaker 2: An event happened between us. I felt frustrated, and at 545 00:28:55,996 --> 00:28:59,636 Speaker 2: the point the frustration started in my body, it's kind 546 00:28:59,636 --> 00:29:04,916 Speaker 2: of my own skills that relate to how I handle it. 547 00:29:05,676 --> 00:29:08,676 Speaker 2: The more we teach our kids that were blaming them 548 00:29:09,396 --> 00:29:13,156 Speaker 2: for our lack of coping skills or inability to access 549 00:29:13,196 --> 00:29:16,116 Speaker 2: them in the moment, that creates a whole set of 550 00:29:16,356 --> 00:29:20,356 Speaker 2: not so great patterns intergenerationally that I actually don't think 551 00:29:20,396 --> 00:29:23,516 Speaker 2: anyone actually wants to pass on to their kids. Plus 552 00:29:23,636 --> 00:29:26,316 Speaker 2: one last thing, it is the most disempowering thing to me, 553 00:29:26,476 --> 00:29:28,276 Speaker 2: Like when parents say, but if my kid didn't complain 554 00:29:28,316 --> 00:29:30,636 Speaker 2: about dinner, I wouldn't yell. Look, I know yelling doesn't 555 00:29:30,636 --> 00:29:32,556 Speaker 2: feel great to you. It doesn't feel great to anyone. 556 00:29:32,636 --> 00:29:35,876 Speaker 2: So you're saying that you're willing to depend on your 557 00:29:35,916 --> 00:29:39,076 Speaker 2: four year old changing what they say for you to 558 00:29:39,156 --> 00:29:40,916 Speaker 2: behave in a way that's in line with your value. 559 00:29:40,996 --> 00:29:43,116 Speaker 2: Is like, I'm not willing to make that bet. My 560 00:29:43,156 --> 00:29:45,676 Speaker 2: self esteem is way too important to me to leave 561 00:29:45,716 --> 00:29:47,956 Speaker 2: it dependent on my kid. So I think that's another 562 00:29:47,996 --> 00:29:48,836 Speaker 2: perspective on it. 563 00:29:48,996 --> 00:29:53,316 Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's an irony because there's actually just parallel 564 00:29:53,316 --> 00:29:55,996 Speaker 1: processes happening that are very similar to one another, which 565 00:29:56,036 --> 00:29:58,956 Speaker 1: is the kids disappointed with the meal and can't manage 566 00:29:58,956 --> 00:30:00,996 Speaker 1: the big emotions, so they throw their dinner plate in 567 00:30:01,036 --> 00:30:05,036 Speaker 1: food everywhere. The mom or dad can't handle the behaviors 568 00:30:05,076 --> 00:30:08,036 Speaker 1: of the kid, and then they can't regulate themselves. And 569 00:30:08,076 --> 00:30:10,356 Speaker 1: so maybe we can bridge the empathy gap just a 570 00:30:10,356 --> 00:30:14,836 Speaker 1: little bit if we realize the inherent psychological similarities between 571 00:30:14,996 --> 00:30:17,596 Speaker 1: what both parent and child are managing in that moment. 572 00:30:18,196 --> 00:30:22,236 Speaker 2: That's right. So if our kid's disregulated emotion is just 573 00:30:22,596 --> 00:30:26,316 Speaker 2: met with our disregulated emotions, then what they're building in 574 00:30:26,356 --> 00:30:29,796 Speaker 2: their body in terms of their circuits and patterns of 575 00:30:29,876 --> 00:30:32,756 Speaker 2: learning of how the world works is my emotion that 576 00:30:32,836 --> 00:30:35,236 Speaker 2: was too big for me gets layered on top of 577 00:30:35,276 --> 00:30:37,796 Speaker 2: my parent's emotion that was too big for them. Guess what, 578 00:30:38,276 --> 00:30:40,156 Speaker 2: I'm actually making it harder for my kid to learn 579 00:30:40,156 --> 00:30:42,796 Speaker 2: how to regulate their own emotions because of that association. 580 00:30:43,756 --> 00:30:45,676 Speaker 1: What do you say to parents who are afraid that 581 00:30:45,796 --> 00:30:48,436 Speaker 1: is just too late for them to implement your approach? 582 00:30:49,076 --> 00:30:51,916 Speaker 1: So they're thinking, look, this all sounds great, but my 583 00:30:52,076 --> 00:30:55,116 Speaker 1: kid is twenty four, and so I'm pretty sure that 584 00:30:55,156 --> 00:30:55,956 Speaker 1: I miss the window. 585 00:30:56,556 --> 00:31:00,076 Speaker 2: It is never too late. It is never too late. 586 00:31:01,036 --> 00:31:03,596 Speaker 2: Is it going to take effort to re establish a 587 00:31:03,596 --> 00:31:06,756 Speaker 2: connection with your twenty four year old, just like it 588 00:31:06,796 --> 00:31:09,756 Speaker 2: would take effort to learn a new language. But ironically, 589 00:31:10,236 --> 00:31:14,516 Speaker 2: the belief that it's too late is the single biggest 590 00:31:14,516 --> 00:31:18,036 Speaker 2: thing that stops us from change. And then I would say, like, 591 00:31:18,516 --> 00:31:20,796 Speaker 2: what is one thing? What is one thing you can do? 592 00:31:21,276 --> 00:31:25,276 Speaker 2: And to me, when we're trying to establish a closer 593 00:31:25,316 --> 00:31:28,876 Speaker 2: relationship with our kids or anyone, repair is often like 594 00:31:28,916 --> 00:31:32,156 Speaker 2: the best starting point. Have you just imagine your own 595 00:31:32,236 --> 00:31:35,676 Speaker 2: parent calling you like, hey, Like, I've been thinking a 596 00:31:35,676 --> 00:31:38,596 Speaker 2: lot about our relationship and the way I did things, 597 00:31:38,636 --> 00:31:41,796 Speaker 2: and I just I know there were a lot of 598 00:31:41,876 --> 00:31:45,876 Speaker 2: things that felt really bad to you, and I get 599 00:31:45,876 --> 00:31:48,596 Speaker 2: that and you were right to feel that way, and 600 00:31:48,636 --> 00:31:51,036 Speaker 2: I care about you, and I know we can't do 601 00:31:51,076 --> 00:31:53,676 Speaker 2: a complete one eighty right now, but I'm willing to 602 00:31:53,716 --> 00:31:57,036 Speaker 2: listen and I want to do things differently. I just 603 00:31:57,076 --> 00:32:00,876 Speaker 2: don't know one adult who's like, yeah, it's too late, 604 00:32:00,996 --> 00:32:03,796 Speaker 2: like that would do nothing. I know plenty of adults 605 00:32:03,836 --> 00:32:05,236 Speaker 2: who would say, I don't know, I might still have 606 00:32:05,276 --> 00:32:07,876 Speaker 2: my guardup and that wouldn't change everything. I'd say, good Now, 607 00:32:08,116 --> 00:32:11,716 Speaker 2: one conversation should change everything, but it might change one thing, 608 00:32:11,836 --> 00:32:14,716 Speaker 2: or it might change some things. And I think if 609 00:32:14,716 --> 00:32:16,836 Speaker 2: we know that it would have that impact on us. Well, 610 00:32:16,876 --> 00:32:19,156 Speaker 2: our kids are younger than us and they're even more 611 00:32:19,276 --> 00:32:22,196 Speaker 2: open as a result, and I think that's a great 612 00:32:22,196 --> 00:32:22,836 Speaker 2: starting point. 613 00:32:24,196 --> 00:32:26,236 Speaker 1: I think I just have a reflection, which is just 614 00:32:27,676 --> 00:32:30,236 Speaker 1: with all of these tools and all of these techniques, 615 00:32:30,316 --> 00:32:36,596 Speaker 1: parenting is just so fricking hard. And I'm curious if 616 00:32:36,596 --> 00:32:40,476 Speaker 1: you're willing to share, Like when you maybe imagine parenthood 617 00:32:41,276 --> 00:32:43,236 Speaker 1: and what it was going to be like and then 618 00:32:43,276 --> 00:32:46,596 Speaker 1: you experience the reality, what have you found to be 619 00:32:47,156 --> 00:32:52,236 Speaker 1: the most surprising, hard component of being a parent? 620 00:32:52,956 --> 00:32:58,276 Speaker 2: Yeah? I think on some level, unconsciously, we think our 621 00:32:58,396 --> 00:33:01,876 Speaker 2: kids are going to heal us. And the truth is 622 00:33:01,876 --> 00:33:06,636 Speaker 2: our kids trigger us, like they trigger us all the time, 623 00:33:07,636 --> 00:33:09,996 Speaker 2: and so in that way, I think what I was 624 00:33:10,076 --> 00:33:13,676 Speaker 2: unprepared for, and I think most people are unprepared for, 625 00:33:13,876 --> 00:33:18,716 Speaker 2: is like parenting is just an exercise and like self development, 626 00:33:18,756 --> 00:33:21,476 Speaker 2: if we're willing to take it on, our kids trigger 627 00:33:21,556 --> 00:33:23,756 Speaker 2: us which really mean, Oh, they bring up a lot 628 00:33:23,756 --> 00:33:27,956 Speaker 2: of unresolved, unprocessed things in us, and am I willing 629 00:33:27,996 --> 00:33:31,116 Speaker 2: to look in and say, okay, like can I use 630 00:33:31,156 --> 00:33:33,156 Speaker 2: those and grow? Because obviously it'll help me grow as 631 00:33:33,156 --> 00:33:35,676 Speaker 2: a parent. Ironically, it'll actually help me grow more as 632 00:33:35,716 --> 00:33:38,276 Speaker 2: a person because these things always kind of lived within me, 633 00:33:38,436 --> 00:33:39,956 Speaker 2: but they just weren't triggered as often. 634 00:33:41,276 --> 00:33:41,476 Speaker 1: You know. 635 00:33:41,556 --> 00:33:45,036 Speaker 2: I had my first kid and he just temperamentally was 636 00:33:45,076 --> 00:33:47,116 Speaker 2: like a kind of easier kid. I didn't realize that 637 00:33:47,196 --> 00:33:49,396 Speaker 2: I'm at tantrums, but looking back, like he really was 638 00:33:49,756 --> 00:33:51,796 Speaker 2: pretty easy. And I did all these parenting things and 639 00:33:52,076 --> 00:33:53,956 Speaker 2: it's not like he said thank you, mommy, you know, 640 00:33:54,036 --> 00:33:56,356 Speaker 2: but he did kind of like do well when I 641 00:33:56,396 --> 00:33:59,476 Speaker 2: did them. And I remember i'd have these parents in 642 00:33:59,516 --> 00:34:02,036 Speaker 2: my private practice who'd be like, I'm doing the thing 643 00:34:02,316 --> 00:34:05,316 Speaker 2: you're telling me, but my kid a yewlller, it's not changing. 644 00:34:05,356 --> 00:34:07,596 Speaker 2: And in the back of my head I'd be like, 645 00:34:07,796 --> 00:34:10,276 Speaker 2: you're probably not doing it, yeah right, you know, But 646 00:34:10,356 --> 00:34:12,516 Speaker 2: then I'd be like I wouldn't say that to their face. 647 00:34:12,676 --> 00:34:15,836 Speaker 2: And then I had my second kid, and I was like, 648 00:34:16,156 --> 00:34:19,516 Speaker 2: oh my goodness, Like I thought I had this down 649 00:34:19,556 --> 00:34:21,876 Speaker 2: a little bit and all those things those parents were 650 00:34:21,876 --> 00:34:24,356 Speaker 2: saying to me and my practice that's happening now. Yeah, Like, 651 00:34:24,556 --> 00:34:27,596 Speaker 2: oh my goodness, my second, I feel like it's a 652 00:34:27,716 --> 00:34:31,716 Speaker 2: lot more effort on my part to show up the 653 00:34:31,756 --> 00:34:35,196 Speaker 2: way she would need. And also therefore, yeah, like we 654 00:34:35,236 --> 00:34:38,116 Speaker 2: have more rupture moments for sure because of also what 655 00:34:38,236 --> 00:34:39,356 Speaker 2: she triggers in me. 656 00:34:39,796 --> 00:34:42,756 Speaker 1: Yeah, what you're sharing with me, Becky is really profound, 657 00:34:42,756 --> 00:34:45,436 Speaker 1: because I think we think of parenting as a phase 658 00:34:45,476 --> 00:34:49,516 Speaker 1: in life where we've accumulated all of this wisdom and 659 00:34:49,556 --> 00:34:53,756 Speaker 1: now it's time to impart that wisdom on these little people, right, 660 00:34:53,796 --> 00:34:55,876 Speaker 1: And I think what you're teaching me in this moment 661 00:34:55,956 --> 00:34:58,556 Speaker 1: is actually what kids do is they hold up a 662 00:34:58,556 --> 00:35:01,396 Speaker 1: mirror to you, and actually it's self learning. 663 00:35:01,756 --> 00:35:04,516 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's exactly right. You know. I always 664 00:35:04,596 --> 00:35:07,156 Speaker 2: think about the prologue from Far from the Tree, which 665 00:35:07,196 --> 00:35:11,876 Speaker 2: is this amazing Solomon and I think, you know, his 666 00:35:11,916 --> 00:35:14,956 Speaker 2: first line is there's no such thing as reproduction, and 667 00:35:14,996 --> 00:35:16,796 Speaker 2: I think that says a lot about parenting. We use 668 00:35:16,836 --> 00:35:20,756 Speaker 2: this word reproduction as if we reproduce, and he says 669 00:35:21,076 --> 00:35:24,836 Speaker 2: a child is an act of production. You produce, And 670 00:35:24,956 --> 00:35:27,596 Speaker 2: what he says is parenting is being forever cast into 671 00:35:27,636 --> 00:35:31,356 Speaker 2: a relationship with a stranger and it's so dark, but 672 00:35:31,396 --> 00:35:33,436 Speaker 2: it's so true. And he's like, people don't say it 673 00:35:33,476 --> 00:35:34,916 Speaker 2: that way because no one would have kids. They'd be like, 674 00:35:34,916 --> 00:35:36,076 Speaker 2: I don't know who the stranger is. I don't know 675 00:35:36,076 --> 00:35:37,476 Speaker 2: if I want to live with this kid my whole 676 00:35:37,476 --> 00:35:40,956 Speaker 2: life yet kind of what it is, And you know, 677 00:35:40,996 --> 00:35:43,596 Speaker 2: I think that brings up so much for us, Like 678 00:35:43,756 --> 00:35:47,116 Speaker 2: you learn way more about yourself than you will ever 679 00:35:47,276 --> 00:35:52,796 Speaker 2: teach your child, and that's that's tiring. And I think again, 680 00:35:52,836 --> 00:35:56,556 Speaker 2: it's just very different than like the societal view and 681 00:35:56,636 --> 00:36:01,476 Speaker 2: expectations of parenting. I feel like it's so important to 682 00:36:01,476 --> 00:36:03,476 Speaker 2: like say it how it really is, because hopefully there'll 683 00:36:03,516 --> 00:36:06,276 Speaker 2: be generations who have kids at some point and can 684 00:36:06,396 --> 00:36:07,676 Speaker 2: just say I knew it would be hard. 685 00:36:35,636 --> 00:36:38,636 Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed my 686 00:36:38,676 --> 00:36:42,036 Speaker 1: conversation with doctor Becky, I recommend checking out last week's 687 00:36:42,076 --> 00:36:47,076 Speaker 1: episode with developmental psychologist Alison Gopnik. We talk about how 688 00:36:47,316 --> 00:36:49,516 Speaker 1: children are the best learners we know of in the 689 00:36:49,636 --> 00:36:53,116 Speaker 1: universe and what they can teach us about creativity and 690 00:36:53,156 --> 00:36:56,796 Speaker 1: being more open to taking risks and join me next 691 00:36:56,836 --> 00:37:00,076 Speaker 1: week when I talk with someone who, honestly, I'm kind 692 00:37:00,076 --> 00:37:03,796 Speaker 1: of obsessed with, so Leka Juwad. She's the author of 693 00:37:03,836 --> 00:37:07,516 Speaker 1: the best selling memoir Between Two Kingdoms, and she shares 694 00:37:07,556 --> 00:37:10,476 Speaker 1: her story of being diagnosed with an aggressive form of 695 00:37:10,516 --> 00:37:14,516 Speaker 1: leukemia in her early twenties. We talk about the isolation 696 00:37:14,676 --> 00:37:18,076 Speaker 1: of illness and recovery, why she hates the trope of 697 00:37:18,116 --> 00:37:21,676 Speaker 1: the hero's journey in cancer stories, and the solace in 698 00:37:21,716 --> 00:37:26,316 Speaker 1: finding creativity and community throughout it all. You won't want 699 00:37:26,356 --> 00:37:38,676 Speaker 1: to miss this one. I'll see you next week. A 700 00:37:38,756 --> 00:37:42,156 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive produced 701 00:37:42,196 --> 00:37:45,756 Speaker 1: by me Maya Shunker. The Slight Change family includes our 702 00:37:45,796 --> 00:37:50,596 Speaker 1: showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, our 703 00:37:50,636 --> 00:37:55,556 Speaker 1: senior producer Trisha Bobida, and our engineer Eric o'wang. Louis 704 00:37:55,596 --> 00:37:58,956 Speaker 1: Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith helped 705 00:37:59,036 --> 00:38:02,076 Speaker 1: arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is a 706 00:38:02,116 --> 00:38:05,636 Speaker 1: production of Pushkin Industries, so a big thanks to everyone there, 707 00:38:06,116 --> 00:38:09,276 Speaker 1: and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. 708 00:38:09,956 --> 00:38:12,396 Speaker 1: You can follow A Slight Change of Plans on Instagram 709 00:38:12,436 --> 00:38:15,196 Speaker 1: at doctor Maya Schunker. See you next week. 710 00:38:35,876 --> 00:38:38,316 Speaker 2: Like if I was going out to dinner with my 711 00:38:38,396 --> 00:38:41,156 Speaker 2: husband and he was like, get on your shoes by 712 00:38:41,196 --> 00:38:43,836 Speaker 2: the time I count to three, or you don't get 713 00:38:43,836 --> 00:38:46,876 Speaker 2: dessert tonight, and if I said I'm not getting my shoes. 714 00:38:46,916 --> 00:38:48,956 Speaker 2: I just don't know one person who'd say, Becky, like 715 00:38:49,916 --> 00:38:52,476 Speaker 2: I think you have a listening problem. Like I think 716 00:38:52,476 --> 00:38:54,556 Speaker 2: they'd be like, Becky, I think you have a husband problem, 717 00:38:54,596 --> 00:38:55,716 Speaker 2: Like what is that guy's deal