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Speaker 1: Hi guys, and welcome back to another new episode of

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Speaker 1: You Need Therapy Podcast. My name is Kat and I'm

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Speaker 1: so glad you're here. If you're new and you don't

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Speaker 1: know me, I am a therapist who lives in Nashville

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Speaker 1: who started this podcast a little bit ago to start

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Speaker 1: having some conversations that I wished we're being had more often,

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Speaker 1: and we've been doing that for a couple of years now. UM,

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Speaker 1: just before we get started, reminder that this is not

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Speaker 1: therapy itself. This is a podcast hosted by a therapist.

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Speaker 1: So today we have an awesome guest. His name is

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Speaker 1: Jonathan Fields, and his name might be familiar to you

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Speaker 1: because he hosts a really awesome podcast called The Good

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Speaker 1: Life Project. UM, and he is an award winning author

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Speaker 1: as well. And today I had him talk about his

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Speaker 1: journey in his career and all of that, because we've

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Speaker 1: talked about that before on the show, talk about like

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Speaker 1: passion and curiosity that what should my job be, Should

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Speaker 1: my job be my passion project, should my passion be

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Speaker 1: my job? Should blah blah blah blah blah. Where do

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Speaker 1: I find meaning? And Jonathan just so happened to write

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Speaker 1: a book that is coming out tomorrow called Sparked, Discover

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Speaker 1: your unique imprint for the work that makes you come alive.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to give you too much information because

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Speaker 1: we talk all about it, but Jonathan is a really

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Speaker 1: cool guy and I was so happy that I got

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Speaker 1: to have this conversation with him. He gave me some

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Speaker 1: light bulb moments, he gave me some things to think about,

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Speaker 1: and I'm super excited to dive into this book now

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Speaker 1: because I think it's going to be really helpful for

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Speaker 1: me and a really helpful tool for me to offer

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Speaker 1: my clients. So, without any further of me babbling on,

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Speaker 1: here is my conversation with Jonathan. Welcome to your Need Therapy.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. It's great to be in with you. Jonathan

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Speaker 1: is a very very new friend who I just met,

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Speaker 1: and I'm learning about him as you guys who are

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Speaker 1: listening are learning as well. And what I what I

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Speaker 1: know is that you host a really really popular podcast,

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Speaker 1: The Good Life Project. I mean, you have incredible guests

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Speaker 1: on um, you cover a lot of topics, and it's

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Speaker 1: one of the leading podcasts in that area. So I

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Speaker 1: would like to know, one how did that even start

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Speaker 1: and what life brought you into starting a podcast because

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Speaker 1: I don't know if this is true, but did you

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Speaker 1: get into podcasting before it was as big as it

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Speaker 1: is now? I did actually, In fact, so Good Life

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Speaker 1: Project started in two twelve, and we actually started with video,

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Speaker 1: not podcasting, and so we were actually filming on location

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Speaker 1: with the crew, like our long conversations with people. About

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Speaker 1: two years into that, I got the bug for audio.

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Speaker 1: I'm also an author, so every once in a while

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Speaker 1: I would find myself like doing a whole bunch of

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Speaker 1: radio and there's something kind of magical about just, you know,

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Speaker 1: when you're having a conversation that's just audio with headphones

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Speaker 1: on and micro phones. I don't know what it was

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Speaker 1: about it, but I just felt really pulled towards it.

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Speaker 1: So we started producing audio too. We stripped it out

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Speaker 1: and we started airing as a podcast, and then um,

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Speaker 1: I decidedn't want to do video anymore. I just wanted

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Speaker 1: to do the audio side of it. People thought I

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Speaker 1: was there was something wrong with me, because we were

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Speaker 1: doing really well on video. We were growing quickly. But

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Speaker 1: I kind of went all in on it. And this

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Speaker 1: was at a time where people thought podcasting was over.

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Speaker 1: It was the final days of it. It was about

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Speaker 1: to go away, and then two things happened. I think

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Speaker 1: it was Apple split out the podcast app and started

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Speaker 1: installing it native on every device. And then Serial that

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Speaker 1: was the first podcast that I listened to. Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: was for many people that and that completely changed the game.

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Speaker 1: It reawakened the giant in the podcasting space. And then

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Speaker 1: also that show brought millions of new people to the

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Speaker 1: medium and it just kind of like changed the trajectory

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Speaker 1: of the entire medium. It gave it new life. And

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Speaker 1: so we've been in Synsic the pretty early days there

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Speaker 1: and really been just super fortunate to ride that way. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: so take me because you just told me that you

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Speaker 1: have like fifteen past lives of careers and something that

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Speaker 1: we've talked about on the podcast a lot is careers

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Speaker 1: and passion and purpose and shifting and allowing yourself to change.

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Speaker 1: And that's something that I really like talking about and

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Speaker 1: people like hearing about. So can you tell me about

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Speaker 1: where you started too? How did you get here? And

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Speaker 1: then also I'm curious about how did you get to

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Speaker 1: the point where you're creating a kind of content. You're

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Speaker 1: creating a long and sordid uh mandering through different careers.

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Speaker 1: But I was also I was a eliminated stand kid.

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Speaker 1: You know, I've had an entrepreneurship in my bones from

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Speaker 1: the earliest days. And I'm also a maker. Like I

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Speaker 1: I opened my eyes in the morning and I just

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Speaker 1: I look around and say, what can I create today? Um,

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Speaker 1: It's been my strongest impulse for as long as I

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Speaker 1: can remember. When I hit you know, my grown up life. UM,

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Speaker 1: I ended up oddly in law school, which nobody around

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Speaker 1: me could really understand. I was really fortunate. I did well,

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Speaker 1: and I end up practicing law in New York City

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Speaker 1: for about five years. But in the middle of that,

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Speaker 1: I ended up with a window where I was working

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Speaker 1: probably about three weeks straight with very little time off.

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Speaker 1: There were days to three days where I just would

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Speaker 1: never actually come home from the office, massive stress, overwhelmed, burnout,

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Speaker 1: taking horrible care of myself, and I ended up in

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Speaker 1: the hospital in emergency surgery when my immune system pretty

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Speaker 1: much shut down and this abscess infection that had been

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Speaker 1: probably brewing at a low level, just had nothing left

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Speaker 1: to fight it and literally just exploded inside my body

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Speaker 1: and ad a hole through my intestines from the outside end.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god. Yeah, it was a bit scary, and

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Speaker 1: it was and it was a wake up call for me.

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Speaker 1: You know, when your career rejects your is rejected by

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Speaker 1: your body, you kind of have to listen, although so

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Speaker 1: many of us don't, and I'm sure I wonder actually

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Speaker 1: how how often that dynamic comes up with you and

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Speaker 1: the work that you do, because I think there's often

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Speaker 1: so much tension there. But for me, it really set

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Speaker 1: me on a different quest, you know, reimagining this thing

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Speaker 1: that we call it work, because it's the thing that

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Speaker 1: most of us do from most of our waking hours

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Speaker 1: for the rest of our lives. If it's more emptying

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Speaker 1: than filling, that's a really brutal dynamic to move through

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Speaker 1: each day. So I went there and eventually moved back

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Speaker 1: into the world of fitness and entrepreneurship. I've been, you know,

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Speaker 1: fascinated by the mind, body connection, human potential for years.

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Speaker 1: I went from you know, making six figures in a

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Speaker 1: in a giant law firm in New York City, making

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Speaker 1: twelve dollars and hours and personal trainer just to learn

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Speaker 1: the industry. But it was wonderful. It was like a

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Speaker 1: great education for me. I want to done it on

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Speaker 1: that because that is a huge deal, and I don't

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Speaker 1: think a lot of people are willing to do that.

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Speaker 1: So what inside of you was like, this is worth it.

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Speaker 1: Taking this lifestyle shift is worth it. Yeah, And that's

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Speaker 1: actually a great thing to to talk about, because I

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Speaker 1: think sometimes we just sort of say, oh, and then

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Speaker 1: I did this, and then I did this. It was

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Speaker 1: a really hard shift to make. But I think it's

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Speaker 1: also probably important to note that I was coming from

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Speaker 1: a place that was unusual and that I was I

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Speaker 1: had the ability to to save a lot of money.

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Speaker 1: You know, I knew this thing was coming. I knew

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Speaker 1: there was a pretty safe bet that I was going

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Speaker 1: to take a hit financially when I did it, because

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Speaker 1: I wanted to learn something entirely new and start completely

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Speaker 1: at the at the the ground in a new industry. Um.

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Speaker 1: So I just started saving money, like as much as

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Speaker 1: I possibly could to cover me for a while, so

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Speaker 1: that it would lower the stress burden that I would

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Speaker 1: have as I transitioned, you know, to the extent that

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Speaker 1: I could minimize the financial stress during the transition. So

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Speaker 1: I stayed in the thing that I didn't want to

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Speaker 1: be doing for probably the better part of a year,

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Speaker 1: just to be able to do that so that I

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Speaker 1: knew that emotionally and psychologically i'd be more okay during

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Speaker 1: the transition. Beyond money, though, the bigger hit was was

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Speaker 1: on my ego. I had so much identity wrapped around this,

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Speaker 1: you know, like power player, like in law, like at

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Speaker 1: the one of the best firms in the world, and

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Speaker 1: all this fancy stuff. And then I go from that

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Speaker 1: to you know, like waking up in the morning, throwing

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Speaker 1: on running shoes, tights and a T shirt, um and

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Speaker 1: hanging out with people and on a day to day basis.

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Speaker 1: I loved it. It was awesome, but there was definitely

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Speaker 1: ego tied up and that identity of being a big

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Speaker 1: firm lawyer that I had to learn to unlind and

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Speaker 1: realize that, you know, what I'm doing, actually I like

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Speaker 1: doing it. It's nourishing to me. It's making a real

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Speaker 1: difference in a in a way that I can touch

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Speaker 1: and feel on an individual level with people that I

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Speaker 1: couldn't with what I was doing before. So it took

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Speaker 1: some time to sort of make that transition so interesting.

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Speaker 1: I just had a conversation with Lori Gottlieb, who's the

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Speaker 1: author of Maybe You Should talk to someone so awesome

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Speaker 1: and she kind of talked about something kind of similar

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Speaker 1: when she went to medical school and then she left.

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Speaker 1: And what it brings up for me is this idea

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Speaker 1: of Okay, I can do this job that people on

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Speaker 1: the outside might think is like cool. For how long

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Speaker 1: do they even care that I'm doing it? But they

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Speaker 1: might think that that's cool, I'm smart, I'm successful on whatever,

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Speaker 1: But inside your body, you're abandoning this part of you

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Speaker 1: that's like there's something else, there's something else that I

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Speaker 1: really like, I'm longing for. And so you have to

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Speaker 1: make the choice what am I going to abandon myself

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Speaker 1: or other people's ideas of who I am? Which one

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Speaker 1: has grets in and a lot of times we pick

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Speaker 1: I'm an abandon myself, which is sad and hard, But

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Speaker 1: you're talking about the space where it was also sad

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Speaker 1: and hard to let go of what other people saw

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Speaker 1: in me and the security of what I had, but

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Speaker 1: it was worth it, Like there is a pool inside

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Speaker 1: of me that made it worth it. Yeah, And it's

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Speaker 1: I love the way that you phrase that. It's it

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Speaker 1: makes it so clear. It's like you're making this choice.

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Speaker 1: But for me, the choice was you know, it was

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Speaker 1: pretty clear when it's affecting your mind, your body, your

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Speaker 1: your health, your well being. You know, it was just

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Speaker 1: a matter of what that next thing might look like,

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Speaker 1: which has taken years and has changed many times over

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Speaker 1: the years, and I had to get really clear on

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Speaker 1: what are the deeper qualities of work that made me

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Speaker 1: come alive that could be a consistent through line through

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Speaker 1: you know, any number of different things. So it started

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Speaker 1: as entrepreneurship in the world of well being, ended up

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Speaker 1: in me opening my own facility and then doing that

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Speaker 1: for a number of years, and then eventually moving into

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Speaker 1: the yoga world in New York City for a bre

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Speaker 1: of years. Also, it's been a series of evolutions, each

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Speaker 1: one sort of learning a little bit more. And I

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Speaker 1: look at both life and my work life as a

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Speaker 1: series of experiments. So for me, it's generally not, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is the thing I'm saying yes to and it

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Speaker 1: has to work, it has to succeed because everything's tied up,

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Speaker 1: And then I kind of look at it more, as

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Speaker 1: you know, this would be an interesting experiment to run

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Speaker 1: and let me let my my main metric be learning

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Speaker 1: and not some sort of mandatory metric for you know

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Speaker 1: success beyond that because if I can do it, and

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Speaker 1: I can, I can just fill in a little bit

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Speaker 1: more and what I know about myself and the way

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Speaker 1: that I interact with the world that makes me become alive.

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Speaker 1: Then no matter what happens, whether the job is something

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Speaker 1: that I end up sticking with or whether it's a

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Speaker 1: company that I stay with or I sell, it's been

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Speaker 1: a success because I've grown from it. That right there,

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Speaker 1: That's one of the I think the most important lessons

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Speaker 1: I learned in the past like five years of when

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Speaker 1: your goal, First of all, what is the success relative subjective?

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Speaker 1: But when your goal is I always say, when your

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Speaker 1: goal is growth. But even that, when my goal is learning,

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Speaker 1: there's no way for me not to succeed. There's literally

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Speaker 1: no way. And so if I go into all of

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Speaker 1: these things thinking thinking, Okay, my goal is to learn

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Speaker 1: something and that's going to move me to the next

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Speaker 1: thing that I need, that I'm always going to be

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Speaker 1: on the right path. Still scary, but a little bit

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Speaker 1: less scary because I'm letting go of some expectation that

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Speaker 1: I don't even really care about. Yeah, no, I completely

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Speaker 1: agree with that, and I think, you know, I'm a

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Speaker 1: huge fan of Carol Dweck and her work on growth

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Speaker 1: versus fixed mindset UM. But I think there's another element

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Speaker 1: that sometimes we don't talk about when we talk about

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Speaker 1: conversations around growth and and that's the stakes, you know,

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Speaker 1: Because I think it's really easy to say, well, you know,

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Speaker 1: adopted growth mindset and make learning your primary metric, and

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Speaker 1: I try, I really try and do that. It's very

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Speaker 1: easy to do that when the stakes are low in

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Speaker 1: our lives, you know, when we have something to fall

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Speaker 1: back on, when we've got a certain amount of savings,

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Speaker 1: where we know we're going to be okay, where we

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Speaker 1: have you know, community and people who won't abandon us.

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Speaker 1: But when the stakes get higher, when your or your

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Speaker 1: family's financial security or well being are completely on the line,

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Speaker 1: it's much harder to do that. It's been a really

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Speaker 1: interesting point that I've been fascinated at looking at, because,

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Speaker 1: especially over the last couple of years, for a lot

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Speaker 1: of people, the stakes have been consistently really really high.

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Speaker 1: So you feel like you don't have the ability to

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Speaker 1: make a decision that might just let you learn more

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Speaker 1: about yourself but actually fail on any number of other metrics,

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Speaker 1: where um, it would really really hurt. And I think

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Speaker 1: that's a conversation that's sort of like it's important to

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Speaker 1: bring that issue, you know, to the forum when we

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Speaker 1: talk about things like this, because we all come from

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Speaker 1: different places, we have different constraints of limitations and privileges

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Speaker 1: and abilities, and so I'm a I think growth is

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Speaker 1: massively important. I think it's also really important to weave

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Speaker 1: in the notion of individual circumstance at the same time

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Speaker 1: when we explore it, Well, would you suggest in those

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Speaker 1: in those moments, Because you're right, I'm a single female

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Speaker 1: who lives on her own, works on our own. There's

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Speaker 1: not nobody really is relying on me but myself, and

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Speaker 1: so I don't really have to consider a lot of things.

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Speaker 1: So I could go take a risk and it's not

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Speaker 1: going to be that big of a deal if it

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Speaker 1: doesn't go the way that I might have envisioned. But

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Speaker 1: you're right, I'm thinking about like my my dad, he

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Speaker 1: started a business during the recession of two thousand and eight,

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Speaker 1: which is a huge risk, and he had there's a

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Speaker 1: lot more writing on that, and that was way more

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Speaker 1: difficult for him. He found a way to do it,

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Speaker 1: but he still had a certain amount of privilege of

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Speaker 1: doing that. So what do you suggest for those people

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Speaker 1: who or what even could the conversation be around about

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Speaker 1: those people who are like, well, I want to be

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Speaker 1: able to go and and grow and do all that,

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Speaker 1: but it feels like at the same time, my feet

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Speaker 1: are stuck here. Yeah. So a couple of things come

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Speaker 1: to mind. One is test ideas as much as you can.

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Speaker 1: On the side, like, instead of saying I'm all on

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Speaker 1: in this one thing and I'm saying goodbye to this

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Speaker 1: other thing, ask yourself, what are the experiments that I

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Speaker 1: can run where I can get information about how a

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Speaker 1: is this going to like work? We'll we'll want it

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Speaker 1: um But also how will I feel about it? Is

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Speaker 1: it going to give me the feeling that I think

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Speaker 1: it will give me? Because I think a lot of times,

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Speaker 1: you know, we're looking for something, whether it's a job

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Speaker 1: or whether it's you know, a company or a practice

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Speaker 1: that we're looking at. Will people want it? Will they

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Speaker 1: exchange value for it? Will I be compensated in a

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Speaker 1: way where I can sustain myself. But the flip side

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Speaker 1: is what I call product maker fit. You know, it's

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Speaker 1: about will it give me the feeling that I want

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Speaker 1: to have because a lot of times you can do

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Speaker 1: something where you can figure out ways to pay your mortgage,

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Speaker 1: but it's actually depleting you on every other level. So

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Speaker 1: I think like the idea is to run a series

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Speaker 1: of small experiments, so instead of just walking away from

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Speaker 1: the thing that you're doing, So, how can I run

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Speaker 1: these little experiments on the side so they can start

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Speaker 1: gathering bits of information until it accumulates to enough insight

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Speaker 1: that I feel like, no, you know what, I've gotten

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Speaker 1: enough information that tells me that this next thing, actually

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Speaker 1: it feels good for me. I've learned a lot about it,

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Speaker 1: and I'm pretty comfortable that I could transfer into it

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Speaker 1: fairly readily and hit the ground and running. What's interesting,

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Speaker 1: it's it's funny. In the world of entrepreneurship, there's this

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Speaker 1: mythology that you have to be all in. You have

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Speaker 1: to leave everything else behind, your life, your relationships, whatever

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Speaker 1: job like, leave your job and go all in because

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Speaker 1: the thing that you're starting there's no way for it

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Speaker 1: to exceed succeed unless you go all in. Adam Grant

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Speaker 1: introduced me to some fascinating research that said that that

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Speaker 1: is actually completely wrong. The majority of the biggest companies

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Speaker 1: in the world that were like came out of, especially

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Speaker 1: the tech world, in the startup world, they actually had

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Speaker 1: founders who stayed with their main job for as long

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Speaker 1: as humanly possible and grew this new thing on the

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Speaker 1: side until literally they just didn't have the waking hours

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Speaker 1: in their day to be able to do both, and

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Speaker 1: they were forced to make the choice to step into it,

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Speaker 1: but they waited till the last possible moment. Or maybe

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Speaker 1: if you had two people who founded something, one went

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Speaker 1: all in and the other kept the day job for

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Speaker 1: as long as they possibly could. Maybe one person had

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Speaker 1: a family support, and you know, the person didn't. So

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Speaker 1: I think the the much more or practical way for

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Speaker 1: a lot of people to do it is to not

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Speaker 1: just sort of like blow up everything that you're doing now,

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Speaker 1: but to keep it going, to optimize it and make

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Speaker 1: it as good as humanly possible, because there are often

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Speaker 1: a lot of little things that we can tweak to

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Speaker 1: make things a lot better, and then to keep just

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Speaker 1: sort of experimenting on the side and let that really

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Speaker 1: inform the process. You know, I really appreciate you even

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Speaker 1: saying that, because I think that what I have seen

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Speaker 1: and projected out are the stories of like they left

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Speaker 1: at all and they risked everything and it that's why

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Speaker 1: they are here. And it makes you feel like I

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Speaker 1: have to do that and when I this is a

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Speaker 1: smaller business, but it's still a business. When I left

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Speaker 1: my very stable job at a treatment center and when

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Speaker 1: and started a private practice, I had to do other things.

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Speaker 1: I got a job in fitness to supplement my income

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Speaker 1: because I started with zero dollars. And I remember a

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Speaker 1: mentor of mine saying like, if you keep working in fitness,

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Speaker 1: your practice is never going to flourish the way that

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Speaker 1: you want it to because you're not putting a hundred

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Speaker 1: percent into it. You're going to get what you put

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Speaker 1: into it. And I was like, okay, but I have

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Speaker 1: to pay my rent and long story short, I still

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Speaker 1: do both now and it worked out for me. But

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Speaker 1: I got that feedback and I was like, dang it,

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Speaker 1: well what do I What am I supposed to do?

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Speaker 1: Because that's what people say. So I appreciate you offering

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Speaker 1: that other perspective. Yeah, there's so much mythology built around it,

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Speaker 1: and I feel like it can be for some people.

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Speaker 1: If you're just wired to be okay doing that, then

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Speaker 1: you know and if you don't have massive steaks where

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Speaker 1: if it doesn't work, a lot of things you're canna

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Speaker 1: be really painful, then it might be something that's you know,

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Speaker 1: much more tenable. But for a lot of people, they

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Speaker 1: won't even start trying anything new just because the thought

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Speaker 1: of completely walking away from that old thing is so

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Speaker 1: painful to them that they'll just keep themselves in this

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Speaker 1: current state of pain. Whereas if you if you give

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Speaker 1: this other options, and honestly, it even can move beyond

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Speaker 1: the transition. And like you said, now it started for

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Speaker 1: you as this transitional thing, but very often it turns

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Speaker 1: into this sustained blend, which can be beautiful. And that

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Speaker 1: can be a blend of two different things that really

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Speaker 1: make you come alive. It can also be a blend

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Speaker 1: of two different things where one really makes you come

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Speaker 1: alive and one is fine, but it covers it makes

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Speaker 1: you financially really okay. It removes a lot of the stress.

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Speaker 1: So the net effect of both of them is that

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Speaker 1: you're honoring what for so many people is it deeply

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Speaker 1: held value of um financial security, and you're you're removing

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Speaker 1: a lot of the stress that would come from walking

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Speaker 1: away and and really struggling to to, you know, figure

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Speaker 1: out how you're gonna pay your bills um and at

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Speaker 1: the same time you're doing a lot of other things

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Speaker 1: that give you this feeling that yeah, like I'm I

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Speaker 1: feel fully expressed in the way that I'm showing up

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Speaker 1: for a lot of the hours of the day. So

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Speaker 1: I think a blended path is also something which is

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Speaker 1: completely legitimate and viable and really fulfilling for a lot

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Speaker 1: of people, which is a newer idea, right because when

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Speaker 1: I was younger, you go to school with that career day,

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Speaker 1: it's like what are you going to be? And it

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Speaker 1: was like a nurse, a police officer, a doctor, a teacher.

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Speaker 1: Like I think I was a nurse every single year

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Speaker 1: because that's what my mom was and that's what I saw.

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Speaker 1: But it was like, you have one thing. Nobody's like

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna be the entrepreneur who does this and this

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Speaker 1: and this and this and also does this. Nobody that's

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Speaker 1: not an option. It's an option. Now it's and I

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Speaker 1: think that might be newer, you know. So what's interesting

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Speaker 1: is I think it's being talked about more, and I

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Speaker 1: think the notion that you definitely don't necessarily have one

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Speaker 1: career that is your dominant thing for the rest of

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Speaker 1: your life is But at the same time, if you

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Speaker 1: look back through history at many of the greatest artists

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Speaker 1: and scientists and writers and creators, um and people nearly

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Speaker 1: any domain, you'll find a number of them that have

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Speaker 1: this blended path. There's this wonderful book called Daily Rituals

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Speaker 1: that looks at the daily rituals like a twenty four

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Speaker 1: hour cycle in the lives of many of the most

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Speaker 1: famous people and quote, successful people in science and art

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Speaker 1: and a bunch of different places, and a lot of

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Speaker 1: them like they would have like a full time job

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Speaker 1: in a government, you know, the thing which was like

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Speaker 1: straight nine to five, and nobody knows this. They're not

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Speaker 1: known for that, you know, they're known for the astonishing

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Speaker 1: body of work that they've created as a painter. And

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Speaker 1: they had no desire to actually leave. People are like, oh,

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Speaker 1: eventually when you get really successful as a painter to

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Speaker 1: leave this other thing behind, and said, no, it's actually

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Speaker 1: I really like this and the fact that I don't

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Speaker 1: have to put in my mind that what I'm painting

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Speaker 1: now must be likable level by other people that they'll

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Speaker 1: pay me enough money to support me and my family.

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Speaker 1: The fact that I don't have to worry about that

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Speaker 1: gives me a certain amount of creative freedom to just

434
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:43,159
Speaker 1: paint on a completely different level where you can you

435
00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:46,400
Speaker 1: can express yourself so much more fully that that's where

436
00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,400
Speaker 1: the really profound work tends to emerge. So it's really

437
00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:51,560
Speaker 1: interesting to sort of see the patterns that I think

438
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:54,119
Speaker 1: show up in really big ways in society sometimes and

439
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:57,439
Speaker 1: then get really quiet over time. Yeah, like why nobody

440
00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:00,440
Speaker 1: is actually talking about that? Because the pressure to perform

441
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:04,160
Speaker 1: I think it's really really damaging sometimes. And I mean

442
00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:06,040
Speaker 1: I feel that all the time. When I just can

443
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,159
Speaker 1: like show up as myself, great things happen. But if

444
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,760
Speaker 1: I have pressure to like wow somebody, I'm like, oh gosh,

445
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:15,000
Speaker 1: I don't know what happens to me. I mean, so,

446
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,240
Speaker 1: so now I'm curious about you, like if you were

447
00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:19,919
Speaker 1: if you had a full time job working, you know,

448
00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:23,159
Speaker 1: like in therapy in this one, did you feel that

449
00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:26,240
Speaker 1: sort of pressure to perform? And and is it different

450
00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:28,480
Speaker 1: now like now that you can sort of set your

451
00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:31,879
Speaker 1: own parameters floor That's a really great question for me

452
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:34,560
Speaker 1: to even think about. I think when I worked I

453
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,720
Speaker 1: worked at a residential treatment center, it was an awesome experience.

454
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:39,919
Speaker 1: I learned a lot, but that was it was a

455
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,600
Speaker 1: nine to five, sometimes like a nine to ten. It

456
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,840
Speaker 1: was a lot. But when I started, there was pressure

457
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,919
Speaker 1: to be really good at what I did for me

458
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,320
Speaker 1: to create a lot of change. It also had to

459
00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:54,159
Speaker 1: do with me being newer in the field and like

460
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,000
Speaker 1: a hero complex and all that which we have had

461
00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,720
Speaker 1: to get over. But when I when I left, I

462
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 1: think what it allowed me to do working in private

463
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:07,040
Speaker 1: practice where I'm not work, I'm not doing forty hours

464
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:11,120
Speaker 1: of therapeutic work. It allowed me to enjoy it more

465
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:13,760
Speaker 1: because I wasn't burnt out from it, because it's an

466
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,320
Speaker 1: exhausting job being in your feelings and being aware and

467
00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,199
Speaker 1: attentive and awake to all of these things. Seven So

468
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:24,359
Speaker 1: it allowed me to enjoy my job better. So I

469
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,119
Speaker 1: think that I just showed up more as myself. And

470
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:30,879
Speaker 1: so I don't I don't walk into a session being like, Okay,

471
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 1: I've got to change their life today, or I've got

472
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:34,359
Speaker 1: to fix their problem today, or I've got to I

473
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,239
Speaker 1: just get to go sit with them. So I do

474
00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:39,440
Speaker 1: think that it has taken the pressure away. Of course,

475
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:43,160
Speaker 1: I still have human desires of like wanting to help

476
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,679
Speaker 1: and make a difference. I really like working and I'm

477
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:49,000
Speaker 1: afraid that if I stayed there, I wouldn't be doing therapy. Still,

478
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:51,960
Speaker 1: I mean, that's so powerful, I think to realize that,

479
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:54,600
Speaker 1: I think so many of us experience that. And also,

480
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:56,960
Speaker 1: you know what, when you were sharing that, what was

481
00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,399
Speaker 1: in my mind was that it's not so much that

482
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,920
Speaker 1: the perform I mince metrics go away, but it's that

483
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 1: we decide what the metrics are. Whereas when we're working

484
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,640
Speaker 1: for someone else, very often they decide what they are

485
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:12,320
Speaker 1: and and we're like the challenges we have to work

486
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 1: to their metrics. And sometimes that well, you know, aligns

487
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,920
Speaker 1: really well with us and what we believe is important.

488
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,280
Speaker 1: But sometimes it doesn't. I think when it doesn't, that's

489
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 1: where we have the friction, where it can be really stressful.

490
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,720
Speaker 1: You know what else I just remembered is when I

491
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 1: was at that trick, I forgot about this. I blocked

492
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 1: this from my brain when not at that treatment center.

493
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,880
Speaker 1: Within a year and a half of me working full

494
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,280
Speaker 1: time there, I started asking how I could get a

495
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 1: job in the marketing department. I was like, they make

496
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,000
Speaker 1: they make more money than the therapist was one thing.

497
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,359
Speaker 1: But I was like, their jobs are so much lighter

498
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 1: than mine, but you still get to work in this field.

499
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:51,199
Speaker 1: How do I get a job doing that? Let me

500
00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 1: tell you, I do not want to do marketing. Like,

501
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 1: now that's so to me. I'm I'm that's so sad

502
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,640
Speaker 1: because I know other people probably feel that when they're

503
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:05,760
Speaker 1: immersed and they are like burnt out in something that

504
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:07,640
Speaker 1: I feel like I was created to be a therapist,

505
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,560
Speaker 1: at least for now. That part of me was being

506
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 1: like ripped away and I wanted to work in marketing.

507
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:15,600
Speaker 1: I don't want to do that, but like the thought

508
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 1: that my brain was going there. But then when I

509
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,159
Speaker 1: got to step back and kind of piece together the

510
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 1: kind of how much do I want to do this?

511
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:25,639
Speaker 1: I actually got to figure out that I wait, I

512
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:29,159
Speaker 1: love therapy. I love being a therapist. I wonder, with

513
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 1: so many people that are listening to this, if they

514
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 1: feel burnt out in their jobs, what would it look

515
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 1: like if you could step back and maybe not do

516
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,160
Speaker 1: it in the capacity or doing it, would you love

517
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 1: it again? Yeah? And and that is a defascination of mine.

518
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:47,120
Speaker 1: It's it's the reason behind a lot of the work

519
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:49,240
Speaker 1: I've been doing for the last two decades really is

520
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 1: to just explore those questions, you know, because like I said,

521
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,359
Speaker 1: it's the thing that most of us do for you know,

522
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,120
Speaker 1: the vast majority of our waking hours, and often now

523
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 1: these days because require retirement as a bit of a myth,

524
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 1: you know, for as long as we're around and we

525
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:08,959
Speaker 1: want to get the feeling of of being alive, and

526
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 1: some of that, you know, is within our control, some

527
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 1: of it is is not. But to the extent that

528
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:15,919
Speaker 1: we can, we can bring as much of it as

529
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,399
Speaker 1: possible under our control and then understand what do we

530
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:23,639
Speaker 1: actually need from that experience to feel good, you know,

531
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 1: And I think that's a lot of a lot of

532
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,400
Speaker 1: the curiosity for me. Also, it's just is built around

533
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,200
Speaker 1: self awareness because I would imagine you see so much

534
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:33,919
Speaker 1: of this just in your in your private practices, you know,

535
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:38,640
Speaker 1: skills practices. All these tools and strategies are great, but

536
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:42,160
Speaker 1: if if they're not built around this foundation of increasing

537
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,399
Speaker 1: self awareness, it kind of doesn't matter because you don't

538
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 1: know enough about yourself to know when to apply them,

539
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 1: or or how you're feeling to understand what's really going on. Yeah,

540
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,159
Speaker 1: I want to talk about your new book because I

541
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 1: think that's what you're heading on right there. But before

542
00:25:57,800 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 1: we get into that, I do want to go back

543
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,879
Speaker 1: to the very big getting of this conversation when you

544
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 1: were talking about your job as a lawyer. And this

545
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 1: is the perfect example of how your body and your

546
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 1: brain and your and your emotions and all of that

547
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 1: is so connected to everything. So if you're stressed out,

548
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 1: it's going to your body is going to react to that.

549
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 1: If you think it's just mental, your body is going

550
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:23,880
Speaker 1: to react to that. We've been learning a lot about

551
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,120
Speaker 1: that on the podcast lately. But I want to talk

552
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,679
Speaker 1: about this idea and your your perspective on it. Is

553
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,879
Speaker 1: this like hustle culture that we're in full disclosure. I

554
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 1: believe it's good to have a little hustle on you.

555
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 1: We need to work hard and if we want things,

556
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,359
Speaker 1: sometimes you have to make sacrifices. But there's also a

557
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 1: glamorization of what that actually means and the overwork that

558
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,440
Speaker 1: it sounds like you were doing. It was like I'm

559
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 1: doing it, I'm doing the I'm on the grind and

560
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 1: all that, and and so I want to just know

561
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 1: your perspective on on just that and how it's portrayed

562
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 1: in society because now I think there's two very polarizing views.

563
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:03,639
Speaker 1: It's like, put your head down and work and do it.

564
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:05,879
Speaker 1: And if you want something to make it happen, no excuses,

565
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,679
Speaker 1: no days off. And then there's like self care all

566
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 1: day long, and there's gotta be a middle crowd. Yeah,

567
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,120
Speaker 1: I'm I'm with you. I think there there's there's got

568
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 1: to be a middle ground. Um. Years ago, a friend

569
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:19,920
Speaker 1: of mine who was in the sort of tech startup space,

570
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 1: coined this phrase entrepourne, which is sort of like um

571
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:25,919
Speaker 1: in the world of entrepreneur said, you know, like there's

572
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 1: all the stories that are told about people absolutely brutalizing

573
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 1: themselves in the name of success, and and that's sort

574
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 1: of like the version of porn in like the world

575
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 1: of entrepreneurship. Like everyone that's that's all that dominates the media,

576
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 1: and to this day it still does, even though the

577
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 1: you know, there is an increasingly an increasing acknowledgement of

578
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 1: the level of mental illness within that domain because of

579
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: just share abuse, self abuse. UM I do believe like you.

580
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 1: I believe in hard work. You know, um, I work

581
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 1: really hard and um I just wrote in like a

582
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 1: dispatch about this to my community yesterday that I think

583
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,880
Speaker 1: we confuse we label hard work as a bad thing.

584
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 1: Like there's that classic phrase, you know, do what you love,

585
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 1: and you never work a day in your life. I

586
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 1: actually don't. It's not that it's not that I don't

587
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,640
Speaker 1: believe it, it's that the underlying assumption is that work

588
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 1: is bad, and and I have I love working hard,

589
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 1: you know, we all love working hard. When you're a

590
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,879
Speaker 1: kid and you're running around playing with your friends outside

591
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,920
Speaker 1: for hours and hours and hours until finding like a parent,

592
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 1: drags you inside and says you have to sit down

593
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 1: and do your homework or eat in or go to bed.

594
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 1: You're working hard that entire time, but it's the context

595
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 1: you're doing something that absolutely is fun and joyful and

596
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,479
Speaker 1: and connected to other people. So I'm a fan of

597
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 1: hard work, but I'm also I am not a fan

598
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 1: of working to the point of extreme depletion and burnout

599
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 1: and sacrificing relationships with people you love and and activities

600
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 1: and things that absolutely you nourish and fill you up

601
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 1: in the name of some arbitrary definition of you know,

602
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 1: like what you think you have to do or what

603
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 1: somebody out there and some other cultures telling you you

604
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 1: have to do. You know, I've heard the phraid you

605
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: have to bleed through your eyeballs to succeed. I'm like, no, no,

606
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 1: actually you don't. And so, yeah, I agree with you.

607
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 1: I think working hard is great, but also so is

608
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 1: taking care of yourself. So is finding ways to pause,

609
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 1: so is finding ways to refuel your tank. At the

610
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 1: same time, I don't believe in the phrase life balance

611
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 1: has always really messed with me, and again because the

612
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 1: positions work as a thing which is against life, like

613
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 1: it's a thing, it's a negative thing that you have

614
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 1: to balance against life. Well, why can't you have something

615
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 1: which more like what my friend Mitch Joel calls work

616
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 1: life blend, where they sort of weave seamlessly between each

617
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 1: other and they inform each other and they nourish each other.

618
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 1: And I have a lot of friends that wake up

619
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 1: in the morning and they want to work simply because

620
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 1: the thing that they do is so urghing to them.

621
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 1: They do it with people that they can't get enough of,

622
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 1: you know, um, they lose themselves in flow while they're

623
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 1: doing And this is a lot of my experience just

624
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 1: on a personal level too. So and at the same time,

625
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 1: I can get so lost in my own work because

626
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 1: it's so deeply engaging that I'll stop moving my body

627
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 1: or so I I've set up certain practices throughout my

628
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 1: day to sort of, you know, bring me back to

629
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 1: the relationships that are important, bring me back to movement,

630
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 1: you know, even small things like you know, I think

631
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: moving my body is important. It's a commitment that I

632
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: think we all need to make, if for nothing other

633
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 1: than mental health, you know, because of the effect that

634
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 1: movement has on our brain and our in our effect. So,

635
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 1: you know, if somebody wants to have a meeting with me,

636
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 1: and this was in before times, you know, in addition

637
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 1: to now, I would always ask them, I would tell

638
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: them to meet me somewhere and we would walk and

639
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 1: talk instead of sitting down somewhere. If someone wants a

640
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 1: phone call with me, I'll always have pretty much always

641
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 1: have a headset on and I'll be walking around, whether

642
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 1: it's inside or if I can be outside, I'll do

643
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 1: that as well. It's interesting, it's sort of like the

644
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 1: way that you know, the last eighteen months has become

645
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 1: video conference culture, which is awesome in a lot of

646
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 1: ways because we can get all the cues and you

647
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: that are visual and non verbal, and at the same

648
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 1: time it ties us to being sedentary. So now anytime

649
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 1: somebody asked me for a meeting, their default is very

650
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 1: often should I send, you, know, like a link to

651
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 1: a video, and and my default is absolutely not. If

652
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 1: there's something that requires us to be on a screen,

653
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 1: if you need to show me something awesome, let's do it.

654
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 1: Barring that, call me and I'm gonna be on my

655
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: headset and I'm not I'm going to be outside walking.

656
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 1: So I think there are ways to be really intentional

657
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 1: about building practices where you can work really hard and

658
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 1: also take care of yourself, you know, like your physical

659
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 1: and emotional well being. So you called that, what do

660
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 1: you say, work life blend. That's actually that's actually not

661
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 1: my phrase. I've heard it a bunch of times, but

662
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 1: um originally from a friend of my, Mitch Jewel. Okay, well,

663
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 1: I love that, and we're going to use that because

664
00:31:58,200 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 1: when you said that, I was like, wait a second,

665
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: you're right, I'm I'm polarizing these and separating these out,

666
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 1: and you can be living your life while you're working

667
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 1: in other ways, and that that the way you're even

668
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 1: talking about it. I'm I'm just walking and moving my

669
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: body and I'm on a phone call at work, Like

670
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 1: that's me actually being in my life and and combining this.

671
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 1: So I love that perspective. Thank you, Thank you. Now

672
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 1: let's transition to this book because I'm excited about learning

673
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: about what this is and what you've created. So I

674
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 1: don't even know where to start, but will you tell

675
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 1: us just a little bit about it and we'll go

676
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:39,479
Speaker 1: from there. Yeah, you know, I think it's actually kind

677
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 1: of a natural, a natural evolution from what we've been

678
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 1: talking about, which is a lot of the way that

679
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 1: we invest ourselves in work. And so I've been fascinated

680
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: by the area of work for so long because so

681
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 1: many people reported as being really emptying, but I've seen

682
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 1: it be so nourishing in so many ways, And I

683
00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 1: got curious, is there some sort of identifiable, mappable set

684
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 1: of impulses for effort for work that makes us come

685
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 1: alive that are fairly universal across people? Because if there are,

686
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 1: and we could identify them, and then we could create

687
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 1: tools for people to discover what theirs is, then it

688
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 1: would it would be so helpful to really understand, like

689
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 1: how do I wake up in the morning and invest

690
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 1: myself in something that makes me come alive. So I

691
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 1: start doing a bunch of research and peased out these

692
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 1: ten different impulses. And then I realized that each one

693
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 1: of these different impulses has a pretty common set of

694
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 1: behaviors and tendencies and preferences that form larger archetypes. So

695
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 1: I call those sparkatypes, which is kind of a fun

696
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 1: shorthand for the archetype for work that sparks you. And

697
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 1: then I said, you know what if we could create

698
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 1: a tool that would both validate this idea at a

699
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 1: much larger scale, but also help people spend ten fifteen

700
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 1: minutes answer a handful of questions and then be actually

701
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 1: able to to to meet their sparkotype and then really

702
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 1: under dan, what is that impulse under everything that I've

703
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 1: been doing for probably my entire life that both fills

704
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 1: me up and empties me out? And then how can

705
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 1: I make better decisions about what I'm going to say

706
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 1: yes or no too in the domain of work or

707
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 1: career or role that will get me so much closer

708
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:20,320
Speaker 1: to this feeling of aliveness. So we built that assessment

709
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 1: called the sparka Type Assessment, and launched it back in

710
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 1: at the end of took about a year to developed.

711
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 1: Since then, over five people have completed it, you know,

712
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 1: generating data points a whole lot of validation for these

713
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:37,319
Speaker 1: ten uh Sparka types. But more important than that, it's

714
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 1: just the stories that have come out of this of

715
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 1: people really seeing themselves for the first time in these

716
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 1: in these imprints um and understanding and the feeling of

717
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 1: both empowerment and agency and forgiveness and the ability to

718
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 1: make better decisions and understand. Like its self awareness meets

719
00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:01,280
Speaker 1: actionable intel, which is what is something that's so important

720
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 1: to me? I'm I'm somebody who could easily live in

721
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 1: my head. But the maker me, my Sparker type, is

722
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 1: the maker, so I make ideas manifest The maker me

723
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 1: wants to make tools that interact with the world that

724
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 1: really make a difference. Okay, what you just said the

725
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 1: awareness and there's action that's so important. I need to

726
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 1: find out what my type is because all day long

727
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 1: I'm creating awareness and helping people find awareness and like

728
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:27,800
Speaker 1: their behaviors and why they do things and all this stuff.

729
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,799
Speaker 1: But then what happens is parent like just we just

730
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,919
Speaker 1: get paralyzed. Okay, well now I know, but then there's

731
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 1: no action. And I always say that like awareness without

732
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:41,399
Speaker 1: actual action or shifts is worthless, and it's actually I'd

733
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 1: rather be just dead to to knowing because then I

734
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 1: know and I'm not doing anything about it. So can

735
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 1: you give us an example of like a type and

736
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 1: how that might help shift some action? Yeah, so, actually

737
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 1: this is really interesting given what you just said. So

738
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 1: there are ten different types. One of the types is

739
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 1: I call them maven and the fundamental impulse for them

740
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: maybe is knowledge acquisition. You wake up in the morning

741
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 1: and all you want to do is learn. You devour knowledge,

742
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 1: you devour information. Um, if you're an introverted, maybe it's

743
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,319
Speaker 1: likely that you'll probably search for a lot of your

744
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 1: information or or a lot of your learning will happen

745
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 1: online with books, with videos, with podcasts in a less

746
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:28,280
Speaker 1: interactive way. If you're a fairly extroverted, mayben pretty safe.

747
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 1: Bet you're going to get yourself in conversation with people,

748
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:35,799
Speaker 1: taking classes, courses, workshops, learning from mentors, coaches. But the

749
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 1: fundamental impulse underneath that is knowledge acquisition. You are completely

750
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 1: satisfied simply through the process of learning, of pursuing a

751
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,400
Speaker 1: deep fascination that can be really narrow, like there's a

752
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,319
Speaker 1: specific topic and you want to know everything about it,

753
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 1: or it can be really broad, like you wake up

754
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 1: in the morning and people and the world fascinate you,

755
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 1: and you will talk with every single person that you

756
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 1: come in, like people will be waiting in line behind

757
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 1: you at the Delhi because you just want to know

758
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 1: everything about the person behind the counter um And by

759
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 1: the way, in New York City, you don't ever do

760
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 1: that because you will feel the eyeballs on your back

761
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 1: and it's not permitted different parts of the counts. It's

762
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 1: a whole different culture. But so, but here's the interesting

763
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 1: thing about the mayven that ties back to what you

764
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 1: were just saying. For the may even simply knowing more

765
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 1: is completely nourishing. That gives you this feeling of coming alive.

766
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 1: Whereas everybody who is not the Maven, who doesn't share

767
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 1: the same impulse, looks at that and says, why are

768
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 1: they investing so much effort, time and sometimes money in

769
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:41,399
Speaker 1: learning all of this stuff but not doing anything with it?

770
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 1: Because if you're not that impulse, you can't understand the

771
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 1: only utility of learning is what you're gonna do with

772
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 1: what you've learned. But if you're the Maven, you do

773
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 1: it simply because the joy of learning is everything that

774
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 1: you would ever need. So there's this interesting thing that

775
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 1: tends to happen, which is that people look at Maven's

776
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 1: and people around them will often start to say things like,

777
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 1: how can you justify spending so much time investing in

778
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 1: all of this learning and you're not doing anything with it,

779
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:10,759
Speaker 1: And Maven's will often end up feeling a sense of

780
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 1: shame because society says it's not a valid impulse unless

781
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 1: you do something with it, But for them, it actually

782
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 1: is everything that they need. Now. Granted, it's also really

783
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:24,840
Speaker 1: hard to support yourself when all you're doing is learning

784
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,360
Speaker 1: all day, so very often and Maven will look to

785
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 1: teams or look to other people, the partner or the

786
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 1: collaborate with somebody who's much more service or process or

787
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 1: where they can be in conversation where they can be

788
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 1: basically like the domain expert for something. And then they'll

789
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 1: work with other people who really unlock the financial value

790
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 1: and what they're learning too, and and that's where they

791
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:49,080
Speaker 1: actually get compensated, or they'll become a teacher, so they'll

792
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 1: they'll actually share what they're learning, so they get paid

793
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 1: for this other impulse, which might be illumination or insight

794
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,800
Speaker 1: um but it really is just for them. It's secretly

795
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,320
Speaker 1: just a funding mechanism for their for their learning process.

796
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 1: So it's really interesting to kind of like see how

797
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 1: that played things like that play out. You know what

798
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 1: that just made me think about This is my own

799
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 1: internal judgments that don't usually come out loud. But like

800
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:16,360
Speaker 1: I think about people who teach things like chemistry or

801
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 1: like I mean even go higher and higher education, and like,

802
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 1: these people are so smart, why didn't they want to

803
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 1: go be like doctors? And that's what you're talking about.

804
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 1: It's like they're satisfied knowing this knowledge and then just

805
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 1: sharing the knowledge, and that so much is happening in

806
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 1: my head right now. But they might have a sense

807
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:38,799
Speaker 1: of shame because people might say that to them, But

808
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 1: really we need teachers, we need that. And the other

809
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:46,400
Speaker 1: thing is like I don't know. I don't want to

810
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:48,239
Speaker 1: reach I want need to read all of these things

811
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:50,360
Speaker 1: and figure out what I am. But I'm not somebody

812
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 1: who wants to sit down and do research. I read

813
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 1: because I need to. I don't love to read current research,

814
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 1: and I don't love to I don't love that. It's

815
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 1: interesting to me, but I don't love the process of

816
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 1: doing it. But I like to make things happen and

817
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 1: I like to create, but I can't create with no information, right,

818
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 1: And that's so so One of the other sparka types

819
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 1: is what I call the stage, and the fundamental impulse

820
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:19,399
Speaker 1: of the stage is awakening insight. It's illumination. So like

821
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 1: the you know, the common translation of that would be

822
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:25,799
Speaker 1: to teach, but you can't teach unless you know something right,

823
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 1: you know. So so for for somebody who has that thing,

824
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 1: very often, um they will wake up in the morning

825
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:33,840
Speaker 1: and they're the ones who are like teaching their siblings

826
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 1: or their friends like anything. That the second they would

827
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 1: learn something as a kid, it was cool that they

828
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 1: learned it and they know it, but actually it wasn't real.

829
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 1: It didn't make them feel alive until they shared it

830
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,240
Speaker 1: with somebody else, you know, which is like a related

831
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:50,399
Speaker 1: impulse to the maven's knowledge acquisition, but it's the sharing part.

832
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 1: It's the awakening insight, is the illumination which makes them

833
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 1: to come alive. But that impulse can sometimes raise ahead

834
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 1: of what you know, like you have such an impulse

835
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 1: to share to teach that you start to share what

836
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 1: you know, and then everyone starts peppering it with questions

837
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 1: and you realize you actually don't know enough. You haven't

838
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 1: gotten like mastered this body of like knowledge enough to

839
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 1: really be effective, and it starts to trip you up.

840
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 1: So that's it's an interesting thing that tends to happen

841
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:20,399
Speaker 1: with a lot of stages is they start to sort

842
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:22,880
Speaker 1: of just they start their sharing process, and then that

843
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,719
Speaker 1: they realize, oh, I need to actually go back and

844
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,719
Speaker 1: do some more learning so that I can I can

845
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 1: I can do it in a more nuanced than informed way.

846
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,840
Speaker 1: So what I'm hearing is that these types allow you

847
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,879
Speaker 1: to like live deeper into like the trueness of how

848
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 1: you were created. And I don't have to be like

849
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 1: everybody else because there's a purpose, Like I play a

850
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:48,760
Speaker 1: role because everybody is everybody can't be all of these things,

851
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:53,440
Speaker 1: so I can play a role. Yeah, I think it's

852
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 1: really about understanding, you know, understanding what is that deeper

853
00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 1: impulse inside of you that makes you wake up in

854
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 1: the morning and say, you know, I want to invest

855
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:04,120
Speaker 1: effort in something. I want to work at something, maybe

856
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 1: really hard at something for no other reason, and the

857
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 1: feeling it gives me, and maybe I get I'm really

858
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 1: well paid for it, which is kind of like a

859
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 1: nice thing, but it's actually not the reason I do it. Like,

860
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:18,800
Speaker 1: for example, for me, so I said, I'm a maker,

861
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,720
Speaker 1: that's one of those sparchetypes. It's all about making ideas

862
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:25,360
Speaker 1: manifest and for me, the process of creation with my

863
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:28,919
Speaker 1: hands and physical objects is that there's something about that

864
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:32,720
Speaker 1: that is the most nourishing for me. So so in theory,

865
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 1: I could be creating things all day and I do that.

866
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 1: I didn't turn around and I offered to people and

867
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 1: I'm compensated for. But three years ago, I took a

868
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 1: month of my life and basically vanished into this renovated

869
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 1: roadhouse in rural Pennsylvania where I lived upstairs, and then

870
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 1: I worked downstairs in a workshop, and I paid a

871
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,279
Speaker 1: luthier or a guitar builder to study with him for

872
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:57,520
Speaker 1: a month and every day, for thirteen hours a day,

873
00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:01,920
Speaker 1: we're working with our hands building. I'm building a guitar, right, So,

874
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 1: so I am paying thousands of dollars for the the

875
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 1: opportunity to work thirteen hours a day to create something

876
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:13,800
Speaker 1: that you know is going to be nowhere near the

877
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,840
Speaker 1: quality of what I could buy at a store for

878
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:21,399
Speaker 1: a lot less money. So because the process of the

879
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 1: physical process of creation for me is so deeply nourishing

880
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:29,879
Speaker 1: that I was willing to actually pay for the opportunity

881
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:32,920
Speaker 1: to do it in a really particular way, you know.

882
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 1: So I think, you know, when you can tap into

883
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:37,919
Speaker 1: those impulses on that level, and then you can figure

884
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,719
Speaker 1: out how to build a lot of your day around them,

885
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:43,839
Speaker 1: just like everything changes. I keep using this phrase coming

886
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,000
Speaker 1: alive or it makes you feel alive, because I think

887
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:48,439
Speaker 1: it's kind of a bit of a nimbulus phrase, and

888
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 1: but actually there's there's specific, five specific components to that

889
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:54,879
Speaker 1: when I talk about that, So I'm talking about work

890
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:57,799
Speaker 1: that gives you the feeling of meaning, you know, like

891
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 1: what I'm doing actually matters it. There's something about it

892
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 1: that is deeply meaningful to me. Work where it drops

893
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 1: you into this state of flow, where you become absorbed

894
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 1: in the activity, time flies, It's like you're you're existing

895
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 1: in another world. People call it like being in the zone,

896
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 1: being in flow. Um artists and athletes report this as

897
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:18,360
Speaker 1: being in your magical state. And there's a lot of

898
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 1: research on the ability to be in that place not

899
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:25,320
Speaker 1: only feels incredible, but it also makes you hyper creative.

900
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 1: It triggers hypercognition. You're like you're you're functioning at your

901
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 1: highest possible levels. The third element for me is excitement

902
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 1: and uh and energy. People with shorthand that as engagement.

903
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 1: And the fourth component is what it would call express potential,

904
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,800
Speaker 1: like you feel like all of you is being brought

905
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:45,359
Speaker 1: to the experience. You're not stifling anything or holding back.

906
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:48,319
Speaker 1: And the fifth part is the feeling of purpose. And

907
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:50,279
Speaker 1: that's a more immediate sense of purpose, like I know

908
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 1: I'm working towards something specific that matters to me, but

909
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 1: also more broadly a sense of purpose in life. And

910
00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:59,760
Speaker 1: when you can find something, you know, find some work

911
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 1: that gives you those five feelings as often as possible,

912
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 1: it's astonishing what starts to change um in the way

913
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 1: that you move through the world. Yeah, and you know

914
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 1: what I think is so cool about what you've created

915
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:15,839
Speaker 1: is there's so many tools and I'm not well versed

916
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 1: in them. So I I feel like, what was the

917
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:23,840
Speaker 1: one that talks before they knew the stage? I'm treating

918
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:25,279
Speaker 1: a little bit start right now, so I'm not going

919
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 1: to talk about them specific, but there's so many like

920
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:30,800
Speaker 1: tools that are used in the workplace, like for communication

921
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:33,399
Speaker 1: and like strength finder and this and that and and

922
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:35,799
Speaker 1: they're great and they can be used for certain uh

923
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:37,840
Speaker 1: to a certain extent at a certain level, and they

924
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 1: can be helpful. And then there's the personality tests like

925
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 1: the Myers Briggs and the angiogram, and those are so

926
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:47,760
Speaker 1: helpful too. But this to me sounds like a really

927
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 1: awesome blending of some of those things together, which is

928
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 1: something I don't know that but like you said, there

929
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:57,319
Speaker 1: are a lot of great tools in the marketplace. They

930
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:00,400
Speaker 1: tend to be different than more about relational styles or

931
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:05,880
Speaker 1: they're more general general personality um assessments. And this is

932
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:09,320
Speaker 1: the Sparkle type assessment, and and all the work around

933
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 1: it is really really really focused on work. It literally

934
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 1: just focuses on one question, what is the like the

935
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 1: basic impulse for work that will make you come alive?

936
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:21,879
Speaker 1: And then like all the other wisdom that you get

937
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 1: from from the other tools is great. Like you know,

938
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 1: like you said in the earlier in our conversation, anything

939
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:29,719
Speaker 1: that we can do to increase our own self awareness

940
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 1: is a great benefit. Like this, the work around the

941
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 1: Sparkle types, and the assessment is really just hyper focused

942
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:40,800
Speaker 1: on work because it consumes so much of our lives,

943
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 1: you know, like rather than having it just consumer lives.

944
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 1: You know, if it could be this generative source of

945
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 1: joy and meaning and connection, then you know, why wouldn't

946
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 1: we want to make it that? No. I think that

947
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,399
Speaker 1: this is like such an exciting thing and and tool

948
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:59,160
Speaker 1: for people to have because I don't know anything like it.

949
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 1: And the stuff that you're going to gain from the

950
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 1: work part is going to You're not going to help it.

951
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 1: It's going to bleed out into other parts of your life.

952
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:08,759
Speaker 1: I mean, we all know that. If you're if the

953
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:12,360
Speaker 1: way that you work is um hyper stressful, is miserable,

954
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:14,320
Speaker 1: if it's burning you out, if you have no interest,

955
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 1: if it's not giving you any sense of meaning or

956
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:19,480
Speaker 1: purpose or joy, well you're going to carry that. I

957
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 1: mean I have to imagine you see it in your practice.

958
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 1: You're going to carry that, you know, emotional load into everything. Yeah. Well,

959
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:30,759
Speaker 1: a question I have for you that I don't know

960
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:32,359
Speaker 1: if you will be able to answer this, but I

961
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:35,000
Speaker 1: do see that a lot there's a lot of people

962
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:37,840
Speaker 1: that feel kind of like we're talking about earlier trapped

963
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 1: in work because they can't get a new job right

964
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 1: now or the what their skill set like, can they

965
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 1: even get a job that would fulfill their lifestyle? And

966
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:50,759
Speaker 1: sometimes I do feel kind of stuck with like I

967
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 1: don't like I don't have the answer for you. I'm

968
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:56,680
Speaker 1: glad we're talking about it, but is this is something

969
00:47:56,719 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 1: that that can really help people who are stuck in

970
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 1: a job And the answer isn't to change their job.

971
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:06,359
Speaker 1: The answer is to change how there is it, how

972
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:10,479
Speaker 1: they're doing their job. This is this is um It's funny.

973
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:13,319
Speaker 1: I devoted a really big media chapter in the book

974
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 1: to exactly this question, because you're right, a lot of

975
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 1: people feel like I can't just go do something else

976
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:22,319
Speaker 1: right now, and especially the times right now, because there's

977
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:24,319
Speaker 1: a lot of people are like I have to keep

978
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 1: my job at stable. Yeah. Absolutely, and and the beautiful

979
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 1: news is that, yes, there's there's very often a lot

980
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:33,799
Speaker 1: that we can do with the thing that we're doing

981
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 1: right now, to reimagine it, to reinvent it, to optimize it.

982
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:40,360
Speaker 1: Once we understand, you know, when when you didn't understand

983
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:42,360
Speaker 1: what is this deeper impulse for work that makes me

984
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 1: become alive? You don't know how to reinvent or reimagine

985
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 1: or optimize the thing that you're doing to be able

986
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 1: to do more of it. Once you understand what that

987
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 1: thing is, then you can actually look at what you're doing.

988
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:55,799
Speaker 1: You can look at your job and say, Okay, this

989
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:57,880
Speaker 1: is the thing that matters to me, Like, this is

990
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:00,600
Speaker 1: the type of work, these are the task, these are

991
00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:03,920
Speaker 1: the tools, these are the processes that would let me

992
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:06,719
Speaker 1: express my spark, attape this impulse in the work that

993
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 1: I'm doing. And then you look at what you're doing,

994
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:11,839
Speaker 1: You're like, how can I do more of this? Like

995
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:18,840
Speaker 1: and and inevitably there are you know, like a hundred

996
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:22,279
Speaker 1: tiny little ways that you can do more of it

997
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,279
Speaker 1: in the work that you're doing, So you don't have

998
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:27,360
Speaker 1: to do these massive things, but in tiny little ways.

999
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:30,719
Speaker 1: Even if it has you know, it extends beyond your

1000
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 1: basic job description. If there's an opportunity to do something

1001
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:37,759
Speaker 1: simply because of the feeling it will give you, then

1002
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 1: why not do it? You know. So, so optimizing your work,

1003
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 1: or what they call sparking your work, is something that

1004
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:46,760
Speaker 1: most people don't even think about because they don't imagine

1005
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 1: it's possible, and also because they don't know what do

1006
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:52,520
Speaker 1: I optimize it around? What do I reimagine it around?

1007
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 1: When you understand the answer to that question, then you

1008
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:57,839
Speaker 1: have this ability to look at your work and say, oh,

1009
00:49:58,080 --> 00:49:59,440
Speaker 1: but if I do a little bit more of this,

1010
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:01,279
Speaker 1: or a little bit more of this, or a little

1011
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 1: bit less of this, or there's this thing that actually

1012
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 1: it's not in my job description, but I know these

1013
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:08,640
Speaker 1: other people here are doing it and they need more

1014
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:11,040
Speaker 1: people to to do a bit more of that, or

1015
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 1: they you know, there's an opportunity for me to just

1016
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:15,000
Speaker 1: step into that and do a bit more of it

1017
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:18,280
Speaker 1: because it would just make me. It seems so cool

1018
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 1: and so nourishing. I'd love to do it. Then you

1019
00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:24,760
Speaker 1: have this opportunity to really reimagine what you're doing. There's, um,

1020
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 1: there's some really fascinating research around what some of the

1021
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:30,759
Speaker 1: researchers called job crafting, which shows that when you do

1022
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:34,440
Speaker 1: this process or variations of it, not only do you

1023
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:38,160
Speaker 1: feel a lot better, but other people start to notice

1024
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:41,759
Speaker 1: you in an organization. Your state changes in the organization,

1025
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:45,480
Speaker 1: people respond to you differently. Um, it's perceived as an

1026
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:49,319
Speaker 1: initiative very often also, and your abilities and the way

1027
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:53,279
Speaker 1: that you're perceived your opportunities within a job or an

1028
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 1: organization tend to change um in a really meaningful way.

1029
00:50:57,520 --> 00:50:59,160
Speaker 1: But more importantly, at the end of the day, you

1030
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:01,799
Speaker 1: go home knowing that you've just spent a whole lot

1031
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 1: more of your day doing something that is deeply nourishing

1032
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 1: to you rather than emptying, and you don't feel like

1033
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 1: you're locked into this thing which is just perpetually draining

1034
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:13,440
Speaker 1: you anymore. Even though you haven't changed companies and you

1035
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:15,759
Speaker 1: haven't changed you know, the actual title of what you're doing,

1036
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:19,440
Speaker 1: you're stepping into it differently. You've reimagined it in a

1037
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:21,239
Speaker 1: way that it's giving you so much more of what

1038
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:23,239
Speaker 1: you need. And like you said, especially right now at

1039
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:26,759
Speaker 1: this moment in time, I think that's so important m hm.

1040
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:31,919
Speaker 1: And and we've said this before, but when you are

1041
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:35,719
Speaker 1: more engaged and when you're more fulfilled during your day

1042
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:38,719
Speaker 1: at work, you could be expending the same amount of

1043
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 1: energy that's going to change when you when you get

1044
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:43,319
Speaker 1: to the thing after work, whether it's going home or

1045
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:45,640
Speaker 1: going to see friends or family or whatever it is,

1046
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:49,719
Speaker 1: You're going to have still more energy if you're enjoying it.

1047
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:51,640
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, you might be tired some days and

1048
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 1: you might just need to go home and take a nap,

1049
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 1: and you might, but at the same time, the draining

1050
00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:58,959
Speaker 1: is so different, and you could be working just as hard,

1051
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:03,240
Speaker 1: but you can showing up in your life brighter, putting

1052
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 1: the same energy out, And why wouldn't you want to

1053
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:09,799
Speaker 1: do that? So yeah, yeah, those days where I was

1054
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:12,839
Speaker 1: I'm spending thirteen hours building a guitar with my hands,

1055
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:15,680
Speaker 1: it was it was hard work. It's like physical, physical work,

1056
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:17,319
Speaker 1: and I would at the end of the day my

1057
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:21,920
Speaker 1: body was exhausted, you know, I was really really physically tired,

1058
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:26,640
Speaker 1: but I was emotionally on fire. I felt so good.

1059
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:32,120
Speaker 1: When you were a lawyer, yeah, said well, I am

1060
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:33,920
Speaker 1: excited about this book. When does it come out? You

1061
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:37,280
Speaker 1: can preorder it now, But the book is out, okay,

1062
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:40,080
Speaker 1: So the book's out, the one where can they buy it?

1063
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:42,319
Speaker 1: Where can they get it? So people, you can buy

1064
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:46,680
Speaker 1: the book basically at booksellers anywhere anywhere, okay, amazing. And

1065
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:50,120
Speaker 1: then where can they find you The Good Life Project podcast,

1066
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:53,120
Speaker 1: Good Life Project podcast. And then for anyone who's actually

1067
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:55,799
Speaker 1: interested in taking the Sparko Type Assessment, which will tell

1068
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:59,600
Speaker 1: you your SPARKA type, it's just at sparka type dot com.

1069
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:02,440
Speaker 1: It's completely free. It's online and that's s p A

1070
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 1: r k E t y p e dot com. But

1071
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:07,239
Speaker 1: even if you misspell it and forget the middle of e,

1072
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:10,120
Speaker 1: you'll still end up in the same place. Okay, well

1073
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:12,000
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I thought you had to read the book

1074
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:13,560
Speaker 1: to do that, So I can go online right now

1075
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:17,400
Speaker 1: and get my type. You can take the assessment online

1076
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:20,560
Speaker 1: and then the book. We'll give you this really deep

1077
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:23,279
Speaker 1: dive into your type in a much more nuanced, in

1078
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:27,719
Speaker 1: cool way. Okay, beautiful, I'm doing that today. I'm excited. Um, well,

1079
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:30,800
Speaker 1: thank you so much. Thank you for this conversation. I

1080
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:32,920
Speaker 1: want to sit here and talk about your life, the

1081
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:35,960
Speaker 1: parts that we didn't get into more but you know, timing.

1082
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:38,080
Speaker 1: But thank you so much for being here and for

1083
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:40,719
Speaker 1: offering this and creating this tool for people. Yeah, it's

1084
00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:42,160
Speaker 1: my pleasure, I think so much for having me. I

1085
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 1: really appreciate it.