1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Unaddiction the Podcast. My name is doctor Zinga Harrison. 2 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 1: I'm a board certified psychiatrist with a specialty in addiction 3 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: medicine and co founder and chief medical officer of Eleanor Health. 4 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: On this podcast, we explore the paths that can lead 5 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: to addiction and the infinite paths that can lead to recovery. 6 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: Our guests are sharing their own experiences, the tools that 7 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: have helped them along the way, and the formulas that 8 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: allow them to thrive in recovery one day at a time. 9 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: Phil Rutherford joins us from Blackfaces Black Voices, a collaborative 10 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 1: of professionals focused on promoting recovery and wellness in black 11 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: communities across the nation. 12 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 2: Their tagline is Black Recovery Amplified. 13 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:56,280 Speaker 1: He also serves as the chief operating officer at Faces 14 00:00:56,280 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: and Voices of Recovery. He's a recovery coach, a passion 15 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: member of the recovery community, and possesses a self described 16 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: doctorate from the School of Hard Knocks. 17 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:09,040 Speaker 2: This conversation was so incredible. 18 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:12,119 Speaker 1: Phil is going to drop on us some statistics about 19 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: addiction in the Black community, as well as some very 20 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 1: tangible things that we can be doing differently to turn 21 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: the tide of addiction. 22 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:23,960 Speaker 2: Phil, thank you so much for joining us. 23 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: If we really want to make a difference in this 24 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:31,400 Speaker 1: addiction crisis that we're experiencing, and so we're doing this 25 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: podcast to drive awareness to that book and also to 26 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: talk to people who are living their own journey of 27 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:45,040 Speaker 1: recovery with this idea that there is an infinite number 28 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: of ways to be in recovery and people are living 29 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 1: in recovery, and we want to have those voices showcased 30 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: and give people ideas for things that they might want 31 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 1: to try that might work in their lives. So thank 32 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: you for joining us. And maybe we could start out 33 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 1: with telling our listeners who is Phil Rutherford and how 34 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:09,079 Speaker 1: did you come to be who you are? 35 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 3: Wow, that's that's a seems like a loaded question, I got. 36 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 3: Do we have seventeen of me? Right? Do we have 37 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:26,640 Speaker 3: seventeen hours to unpack the first ten years of my life? Now? 38 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 2: Yes, yes we do. 39 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 3: I actually think that I'm one of the lucky ones. 40 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 3: I think that I my journey to get where I 41 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 3: am today was definitely aided by good health care, a 42 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 3: loving family, and opportunity to an opportunity to recover and 43 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 3: I think one of the reasons I do what I 44 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 3: do is that there are plenty of people that don't 45 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 3: have access to good health care and don't have access 46 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:01,800 Speaker 3: to opportunities to just to get well. Right. I think 47 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 3: garden variety substances disorder, nothing particularly special about that. It 48 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 3: appeared in my in my teens. I think I brought 49 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 3: it with me into high school and early attempts at college. 50 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 3: I used to say that at any given time in 51 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 3: my certainly in my freshman year, my blood alcohol level 52 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 3: was higher than my GPA. And and and I just 53 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:32,239 Speaker 3: I just I went through it, you know. But I 54 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 3: think the in my in my case, my people, my 55 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 3: my mom is a psychologist, so she she knew a 56 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 3: little bit about what was wrong with me and got 57 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 3: me into treatment early and often, right, which I that, 58 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 3: you know, that's I don't know if that's a I 59 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 3: don't know if that's a saying, but I think treatment 60 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 3: early and often is probably a good rule of thumb, 61 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 3: because if nothing else I got, it probably preserved me. 62 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 3: I think it gave me an opportunity to do some things. 63 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 3: And you know what I mean, Let's keep it real. 64 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 3: I'm socialized in a way that made treatment possible for me. 65 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 2: Say more about that, Phil, Yes. 66 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:18,039 Speaker 3: This is another thing that is really important to me. 67 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 3: So I did not get put out of treatment because 68 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 3: of my because of the way, just because of the 69 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 3: way that I am. I know how to move in 70 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 3: white circles and speak speak white language. And I hate 71 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 3: to say it that way, but one of the things 72 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 3: that I see as I as I go around the 73 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 3: country and do this work, is that there are plenty 74 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:45,840 Speaker 3: of treatment environments that are not necessarily friendly or available 75 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 3: to men that look like me and I men who 76 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 3: look like you. 77 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 1: Because we can just talk straight on this podcast, So 78 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 1: tell us what you mean, Phil. 79 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 3: And I apologize because we're on a where even though 80 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 3: we're podcasting, we're on video, so you can me. But 81 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 3: I suppose your listeners can't. I am a black man 82 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,720 Speaker 3: living in long term recovery, and it is it is 83 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 3: very important to me that other black men are given 84 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 3: the same opportunity to recover from a healthcare issue that 85 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 3: actually has fairly high recovery rates. One of the things 86 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 3: that I get to do is I interact with samsu 87 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 3: a lot, and very recently they came out with some 88 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 3: data around recovery from substitute disorder, and their sample size 89 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:37,480 Speaker 3: was valid. Their their data says that of people that 90 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 3: ever in their lifetime identify it as having a problem 91 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:47,159 Speaker 3: with substances including alcohol, seventy percent of those people have 92 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 3: found some measure of recovery. So that's that's higher than diabetes, 93 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:55,160 Speaker 3: that's higher than hypertension, that's higher than a whole host 94 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,480 Speaker 3: of other chronic illnesses. So what that. 95 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 1: Tells me that sounds like what we need to learn 96 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:04,600 Speaker 1: that we think we know, is that people don't recover 97 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:06,919 Speaker 1: from substance use disorders. 98 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:11,919 Speaker 3: Right right even inside of our community. Like for a 99 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 3: long time, I heard the phrase recovery is possible, and 100 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:18,799 Speaker 3: that's true, and it's a wonderful sentiment, but I know math, 101 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 3: and if something is seventy percent, that's a probability, that's 102 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 3: not a possibility. So I just I So that's so 103 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 3: I'm passionate about that, and I'm passionate about culturally specific 104 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 3: pathways because I didn't finish telling the rest of my story, 105 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 3: which is, yes, I found treatment early and often, and 106 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 3: I don't know if that's how it needs to be 107 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 3: for everybody, but I did. But I think one of 108 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 3: the things that finally got me from the treatment cycle 109 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 3: into the recovery cycle is that I met a man 110 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 3: in Minneapolis that looked like me, another black man, and 111 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 3: he brought me. And one of it's kind of funny story. 112 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:03,839 Speaker 3: One of the first things I said to him because 113 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 3: he asked me about, you know, what what do I 114 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 3: do in my recovery pathway and blah blah blah. We 115 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 3: didn't call it recovery pathways back then, but he just 116 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 3: said what do I do? And he mentioned something about 117 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 3: mutual aid twelve step and I said, oh, that that 118 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 3: doesn't work. That's that's for white folks. And and to 119 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 3: his credit and to this day, I mean, he and 120 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 3: I are still we're still the best of friends. He 121 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 3: didn't say anything. He just he brought me to a 122 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 3: meeting in South Minneapolis of about forty It was a 123 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 3: men's meeting about forty black men in recovery. 124 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 2: Wow, and wait a minute, in Minneapolis. 125 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 3: This in Minneapolis, right and something. And he never said anything. 126 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 3: He never to this day, he's never said anything about it. 127 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 3: He's never said, well, I did that to show you 128 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 3: or none of that. But but what it did for 129 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 3: me was that it me it was an excuse buster right. 130 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 3: I couldn't. I couldn't have that excuse anymore, because the problem, 131 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 3: the problem with mutual aid, the problem with any of 132 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 3: those things, it has nothing to do necessarily with with race. 133 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 3: While there may be race problems in Twelve Steps, not 134 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 3: I'm not I'm not trying to to argue that. But 135 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 3: that's not what was stopping me from getting well. What 136 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 3: was stopping me from getting well was my own my 137 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 3: own thinking about it. And I've since I've since come 138 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 3: to you know, and I've been in the Twelve Step 139 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 3: rooms during during George Floyd and all of that, and 140 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 3: people tell me race is an outside issue, and me 141 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 3: tell them every time I bring my black ass in here, 142 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 3: the inside issue. I can't be. I can't be anything 143 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 3: other than black in here. So it's I'm not saying 144 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 3: it's not without challenge, but but that event for me 145 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 3: made a difference and its shaped it helps and he 146 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 3: kept me in the company of other black men that 147 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:06,319 Speaker 3: were in recovery and sort of pursuing the same path. 148 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 1: This is so incredibly important, and so we talk about 149 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: we meaning in this book, all of these different inputs 150 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 1: to the development of addiction, and so all of the 151 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: different outputs that lead to a path to recovery. And 152 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 1: part of it is exactly this, which is that cultural, racial, ethnic, 153 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: socio political inputs matter and community matters, right, And so 154 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 1: there's this whole chapter we do on weathering, which is 155 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: like the impact of racism and discrimination as independently quantified 156 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: on your risk for developing a chronic health condition, whether 157 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 1: that's addiction or something else, and for the negative outcomes 158 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 1: that black people see in all of these different health outcomes, 159 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 1: and how the environment and lack of opportunity to get 160 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 1: healthy the way that you phrased it, which I love, 161 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: is really driving that. And so I want to use 162 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 1: this as a segue, Phil because you're with faces and 163 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: voices of recovery, correct, And what that person did for 164 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 1: you was showed you a face of recovery that looked 165 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: like yours forty times over in that twelve step meeting. 166 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 3: Yep. 167 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 2: And so can you talk to. 168 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:31,319 Speaker 1: Me about the work you're doing these days to show 169 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: the faces and voices of recovery so that people can 170 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 1: see themselves in that and the difference that you think 171 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:38,679 Speaker 1: that makes. 172 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 3: Absolutely And I'm going to try not to make this convoluted. 173 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 3: I'm going to do my best here because there's a 174 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 3: bit of a nuance in what you just said. My 175 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:53,199 Speaker 3: day job is at Faces and Voices of Recovery, and 176 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 3: the chief operating officer, I do that sort of work there. 177 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 3: In twenty twenty, it became apparent to me that I 178 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 3: needed to do more, that that wasn't enough, that managing 179 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 3: a nationwide effort toward reducing stigma in large scale was 180 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 3: not enough. I started a group called Black Faces Black Voices. 181 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 3: And this, again, this was not an attempt to do 182 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 3: any and I guess it's just sort of the nature 183 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 3: of America. Whenever you say something I'm going to do 184 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 3: something that is pro black, there's the zero sum game 185 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 3: mentality that it is in some way anti some other group. 186 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 3: It's not. But it became apparent to me that I 187 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 3: needed to do something specifically around recovery and recovery opportunities 188 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 3: for black communities, which is what Black Faces Black Voices is. 189 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 3: It is a recovery collaborative, collaborative of professionals around the 190 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 3: country that bring this work into community. So what we 191 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 3: do is we look for opportunities to drive resources into 192 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 3: black communities around the country. Now, like I said, I 193 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 3: could talk at length about the big picture of federal 194 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 3: policy work that I do with faces and voices, And 195 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 3: by this time everyone that in federal spaces knew that 196 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 3: I was about to talk about Equityever I open how 197 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 3: so it's kind of a it's kind of a both 198 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 3: and thing for me. But I think it's important just 199 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:21,439 Speaker 3: to point out that that's that's really what, that's really 200 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 3: what the that's where my heart is. I guess that's 201 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 3: the best way to put it. My heart, my heart 202 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 3: is there. 203 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, let's talk about your heart. 204 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: How does black faces, black voices increase opportunity for recovery? 205 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 2: How do you bring those opportunities to the community. 206 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 3: We do a couple of different things. So our members 207 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 3: are actually people operating recovery organizations around the country. So 208 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:53,319 Speaker 3: our membership includes I want to say that there are 209 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 3: at last count for about seventy five different organizations that 210 00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 3: are that are part of this collaborative. So we're doing 211 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 3: everything for direct peer to peer services. We're doing policy 212 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:08,199 Speaker 3: advocacy right now. We're running a couple of research projects 213 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 3: where we're looking The one research project that is the 214 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:17,439 Speaker 3: largest is that we are studying the criminal legal system 215 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,320 Speaker 3: and the effects that it has on black women in 216 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 3: five states, so New York, Michigan, Texas, Georgia, and Pennsylvania. 217 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 3: We're looking at specifically what recovery supports exist for black 218 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 3: women transitting the criminal legal system, and so we're trying 219 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 3: to you know, there are all sorts of things that 220 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 3: influence policy. Obviously, research influences policy, and we're trying to 221 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 3: come at it from a number of different angles. But 222 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:50,959 Speaker 3: at the end of the day, the direct service that's 223 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 3: happening at these organizations, and the thing is black Faces, 224 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,559 Speaker 3: Black Voices didn't we didn't start these organizations, but we 225 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 3: have collected them, and we're attempting to operate in a 226 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 3: little bit more of a unified, a unified front and 227 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 3: conceivably drive funding in a little bit more of a 228 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 3: unified way. 229 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:08,559 Speaker 2: Mm hmmm. 230 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 1: I love that you said, this is my heart right 231 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 1: and so when I think about a life of recovery 232 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: from whatever chronic condition YEP, addiction included, really at the 233 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 1: center of that is life, meaning purpose and community. 234 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 2: Do you share the same kind of thinking? 235 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 3: Absolutely? Absolutely, I mean, I think the the most important 236 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 3: thing and there's always there are, there are component parts 237 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 3: of our lives that we can we can mesh together. Right, 238 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 3: So obviously I am I am. I am a person 239 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 3: with substance use disorder, and that is it's important to 240 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 3: me that that I don't want people to die period. 241 00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 3: That's not about race or anything. I want human I 242 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 3: want human suffering to lessen. I think the thing that 243 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 3: I am uniquely qualified to do, and the thing the 244 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 3: place where my voice can ring the truest is in 245 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 3: the space of working with with black communities and trying 246 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 3: to get resources there because the truth of the matter, 247 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 3: and it sounds to me like you are connected with 248 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 3: current statistics. You know, the overdose rate in this country 249 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 3: is in specifically in black communities, is skyrocketing, and it's 250 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 3: so so I want to help everyone. But much like 251 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 3: the question of if if you're in a neighborhood and 252 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 3: there's a house on fire, you don't send fire trucks 253 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 3: to all the other houses. You send the fire trugs 254 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 3: to the house that's on fire. I want that, I 255 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 3: want I want to I want to address that and 256 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 3: I want to make sure all the other houses are safe. 257 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 3: But I want this house to stop burning. And that's 258 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 3: that's kind of what that so, so, yes, I agree 259 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 3: with your statement. Yes, this is where my heart is. 260 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 3: And I can do both. I can. I can support 261 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 3: recovery theater wide and I can and I can sort 262 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 3: of bring specific attention to black communities. 263 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 2: Yes. Absolutely. 264 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 1: My son is just started his freshman year of college 265 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 1: and he's my what can I say, like Hetty hetty 266 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: son philosophical guy, right, And so we were having some 267 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 1: conversation about equity and racism and impact on life and health. 268 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: And similar to your example that you just use, like 269 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: I want the fire truck to go to the house 270 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: that's on fire, he said, yeah, Mom, I'm talking to 271 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 1: my friends and I'm like, you know, if this person 272 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: needs a band aid and this person needs CPR, I'm 273 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 1: not going to give everybody a band aid, and I'm 274 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: not going to give everybody CPR, right, right, right. 275 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 3: That's wonderful, that's wonderful, right, And that's and and that's 276 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 3: the thing. 277 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the thing. Uh, when you look at kind 278 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 1: of what the face and voice even of the opioid 279 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 1: use disorder crisis, certainly the wider substance use disorder crisis 280 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:21,159 Speaker 1: has been, I think black communities would not know the 281 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 1: disproportionate impact that this opioid crisis has had in black communities, yep. 282 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:30,120 Speaker 3: Speaking speaking specifically of that, I just I just came 283 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 3: from the Drug Policy Alliance conference in Phoenix, which wonderful, 284 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 3: wonderful thing, beautiful, beautiful to see the work that's getting 285 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:43,639 Speaker 3: done there. But I was on a panel with a 286 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 3: couple of folks and one of one of the things 287 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:50,400 Speaker 3: that we talked about was this, there's the broader messaging 288 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 3: of yes, over those crisis. Yes, people are dying, Yes 289 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 3: we need to do something about it. But within inside 290 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:02,680 Speaker 3: of the black community, we have work to do, specifically 291 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 3: around awareness and around the opioid crisis itself. There's internal 292 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:13,640 Speaker 3: work that needs to be done there. And I usually 293 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,679 Speaker 3: ask this question when I'm when I'm in the broader 294 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:21,199 Speaker 3: community about vigils, and it usually this usually makes it 295 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 3: very clear. You know, we talk, we think about the 296 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 3: overdose vigils. I see a lot of pictures people with candles. 297 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 3: I always ask people, how many black faces do you 298 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 3: see in those in those vigils in the pictures? And 299 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 3: you don't. But that's weird because the numbers are increasing, 300 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 3: So why why don't we see those? And we don't 301 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 3: see those because a lot of a lot of times 302 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 3: and it's not. Not every community is all black or 303 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:48,399 Speaker 3: one hundred percent black folks. It's not. That's not what 304 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 3: it is. But as a people were over policed and 305 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 3: and and and and typically prosecute it differently. So it's 306 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 3: not it's not as easy just to get out there 307 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 3: and say, yep, my my son has an opioid use 308 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 3: disorder and he was shooting open in the back room 309 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 3: and this is what happened. That's a more. That's a 310 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 3: little bit more. It's a more complex thing to have 311 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 3: that discussion with with with other family members so and 312 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 3: with other community members so. 313 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 1: So. 314 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 3: Another something else we're working on at Black Faces, Black 315 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 3: Voices is trying to have those dialogues. We're doing a 316 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 3: thing called Chicago Well we don't call them Chicago Dinners. 317 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 3: They're modeled after the Chicago Dinner, where we get people 318 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 3: around the table in community and start talking about that 319 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 3: and talk about what does it What does it mean 320 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 3: to say my child as an opioid use disorder? What 321 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 3: does it mean to talk about and that? And that 322 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 3: I'll start there, but the next iteration of that is, 323 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:45,959 Speaker 3: what does it mean to say my child is practiced 324 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:50,439 Speaker 3: arm reduction? What does it mean? Take us phil What 325 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 3: does it mean to go. 326 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 2: To this podcast? Take it all the way there? 327 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 3: What does it mean to go to a black church 328 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 3: and ask, you know, can it? Can we can we 329 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 3: do safer supplies? Can we can we talk about wound care? 330 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 3: I mean, so there there's a the entire spectrum of 331 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:13,120 Speaker 3: healthcare remedies that are affecting and that that we're using 332 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 3: to reduce the impact of the overdose crisis and the 333 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 3: opioid crisis. Those need to be brought to the black 334 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 3: community as well. It's unacceptable to me that they're not 335 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 3: that they're not there because there's some of that stuff 336 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 3: that works. So let's that's right, Let's do the stuff 337 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 3: that works. So anyway, I feel like I'm preaching, So 338 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 3: I'm a. 339 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: I'm well, I mean, if you preaching, I'm singing because 340 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 1: I'm the choir. Okay, So directly related to what you 341 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: were just saying, Like, and the first conversation is just 342 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 1: about the illness. Let's not even talk about harm reduction, 343 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,159 Speaker 1: but let's talk about harm reduction. I was just in 344 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,880 Speaker 1: Philadelphia and I went to visit the Kensington community, which 345 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: is garnered nationwide coverage on what they call quote the 346 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 1: open drug market. But it really is this area of 347 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 1: Philadelphia where people with active addiction are on the street. 348 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:12,400 Speaker 1: And I spent some time volunteering at this organization. I'll 349 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:16,119 Speaker 1: shout them out called Savage Sisters and the Wooncare. Yeah 350 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: they're amazing. Oh I am amazing. So we were doing 351 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 1: woon Care and handing out safe supplies, and when I 352 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: went back and was reflecting, there were probably we probably 353 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:32,879 Speaker 1: saw about twenty or thirty people who were in the 354 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:37,160 Speaker 1: street in this quarter block, in the Kensington community, and 355 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: there was not one single black person. And as I 356 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 1: was reflecting, I said to myself, I believe there is 357 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:48,919 Speaker 1: not one single black person because if this was a 358 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 1: collection of thirty black people on this street, the police 359 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,200 Speaker 1: response would be very different. 360 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 3: Well, of course, of course, and that's the complexity. That is, 361 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 3: That is the complexity, and I I we should be 362 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:10,719 Speaker 3: ashamed of ourselves for not pushing harder on this. This 363 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 3: is a this is a place where like it is 364 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:16,679 Speaker 3: unacceptable to me that a place like Kensy. First of all, 365 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:18,440 Speaker 3: we should be ashamed of ourselves for allowing a place 366 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 3: like Kensington to exist. There are better models for that. 367 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:24,639 Speaker 3: I I don't know if you're familiar with on Point Harlem, 368 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:27,479 Speaker 3: and I'm only Washington Heights. But these are these are 369 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,360 Speaker 3: these are overdose prevention centers. 370 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 2: But yeah, tell us about it because our listeners may 371 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 2: not be. 372 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 3: So these are places in Both of these places are 373 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 3: in New York, and these are places where people can 374 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 3: go and safely use substances. Now, before and I had, 375 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:51,920 Speaker 3: I want to be clear, full disclosure, I had one 376 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 3: opinion of the place before I went in there, and 377 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 3: I walked out with a very different, very different feeling. 378 00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 2: So it is I will go ahead and give us 379 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 2: before and alfter. 380 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 3: So before, I'm like, okay, I'm going to go in here. 381 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 3: And it's just a bunch of people, a bunch of 382 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 3: people getting high. And I walk in the door and 383 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 3: there's a room full of people and there's a line 384 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 3: and they're waiting to go back in the back area 385 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:18,120 Speaker 3: and I assume they're waiting to go and use substances, 386 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 3: and they I was going to tour. So they took 387 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 3: me around and they showed me the room and the 388 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:23,640 Speaker 3: room looked a lot like an office cube. The rooms 389 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 3: for people to use look a lot like office cubicles, 390 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 3: and they had a room for people that were smoking 391 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 3: that has some kind of high tech ventilation in it, 392 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,960 Speaker 3: so the particulates couldn't get out. They have a mask. 393 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 3: One of the interesting things there is they have a 394 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 3: mass spectrometer at the door, so whatever your sample is, 395 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:42,199 Speaker 3: you can you can test it so you know what 396 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 3: you know what you're actually consuming. But that's just the 397 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 3: first floor. This is the three floor building. So then 398 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 3: they take me to the other part of the first floor, 399 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 3: which is healthcare, so if you have wounds, you get 400 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:55,640 Speaker 3: your wounds cared for. If you got other healthcare needs, 401 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 3: you can get seen there. Then they took me to 402 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 3: the second floor, which is yoga. They were doing the 403 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 3: Nata acupuncture that the Black Panthers did for drug treatment. 404 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 3: They have other workout rooms, other stuff there. They got 405 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 3: job skills training, all this other stuff going on, And 406 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,119 Speaker 3: so my opinion started to change. And then they were 407 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 3: telling me about their statistics that about forty percent of 408 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:17,959 Speaker 3: the people they go there go there to use substances, 409 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 3: and more more than half of the people that go 410 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:22,880 Speaker 3: there go there for the services. They don't go there 411 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,159 Speaker 3: to use substances. And I just and and as I 412 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 3: was walking out of there, two things occurred to me. 413 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 3: They number one, they don't have overdoses there. Nobody's dying there, 414 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,920 Speaker 3: they Number two, nobody's getting killed by the cops there. 415 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 3: No one's being murdered by police there. As a matter 416 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 3: of fact, the police know about the place. They're happy 417 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:45,200 Speaker 3: about it. They they that they're there, are people there, Yes, 418 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:49,120 Speaker 3: they're excited, and if people start falling out, they will 419 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 3: bring substances to them to test it the mass spectrometer 420 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:55,400 Speaker 3: to see what the what the fedmal content is. So 421 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:57,399 Speaker 3: so I just I walked out of there like like 422 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 3: every city should have one of these. And and then 423 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:03,439 Speaker 3: there's the real life thing of Okay, if I'm going 424 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 3: to put this in a community, and this is in Harlem, right, 425 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:07,959 Speaker 3: I'm on one hundred and I guess I think it's 426 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 3: one hundred and twenty sixth Street in Harlem, So I'm 427 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:14,919 Speaker 3: in a black neighborhood. So it can be done. But 428 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,160 Speaker 3: I just I've walked out of there thinking that we're 429 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 3: doing it completely wrong because people are people are not 430 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 3: dying and getting the help that they need in a 431 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,160 Speaker 3: way that is not so stigmatized in judgmental. 432 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:32,440 Speaker 2: So I'm say it, Yeah, I love it. I love it. 433 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 1: So time always flies when I'm having these conversations, and 434 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,920 Speaker 1: so I want to make sure I don't miss this opportunity. 435 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,399 Speaker 1: I usually say at the very beginning, So this is 436 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 1: my bad feel for not giving you a full heads up. 437 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 1: At the end of the podcast, I'm going to ask 438 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,880 Speaker 1: you for one thing you want us to unlearn, or 439 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 1: one stigma you want us to undo, or one conversation 440 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 1: you want us to uncover. So I usually do that 441 00:25:57,880 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: at the beginning. I see your brain tick and don't 442 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: tell me right now. I'm going to ask you at 443 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 1: the end. This is a valley, got about ten more 444 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 1: minutes to spend with each other. 445 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,120 Speaker 2: That's what I'm gonna ask you before we get out 446 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 2: of here. 447 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 1: What I want to ask you now is because part 448 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 1: of what I feel very passionately about there used to 449 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 1: be this idea that there was only one way to 450 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,399 Speaker 1: be in recovery. And what I think we know I 451 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,359 Speaker 1: heard Joe deep Heavyside. So I think you feel you 452 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:29,159 Speaker 1: feel a question that's coming. I think we are coming 453 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,920 Speaker 1: to understand that that is not the case. So can 454 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:38,160 Speaker 1: you talk to us about what your formula for recovery is? 455 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:42,719 Speaker 1: Fulfill in case people who are listening might hear something 456 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: that they're like, oh, maybe I want to try that, 457 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: or maybe I want to mention that to somebody I 458 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 1: know who's formulating their own formula. 459 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 3: Right now, there are a bunch of thoughts going through 460 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 3: my head. So I will I want to I want 461 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:02,159 Speaker 3: to qualify my answer with a very important component, and 462 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:06,399 Speaker 3: that component is time, because I think we talk about 463 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 3: we talk a lot about the pathways of recovery, and 464 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 3: where I am today is not where I started. Where 465 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 3: I started, I just wanted a way out. I needed 466 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,200 Speaker 3: a way out. A way out was presented. I took 467 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 3: the way out that for me, that way out was 468 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:26,400 Speaker 3: twelve step. That's and that's that's really all that was presented. 469 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,400 Speaker 3: I think church was an option, but I'm a heathen, 470 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,640 Speaker 3: so that didn't that wasn't good to go. So so 471 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,640 Speaker 3: I hope my mom's not listening to this and get mad, 472 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:43,199 Speaker 3: but get popped upside the head and Thanksgiving. You know, 473 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 3: I tought you better than that boy. So anyway, so 474 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 3: so that that was the pathway that was available to me, 475 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 3: and so I started I started in an abstinence based 476 00:27:56,240 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 3: you gotta stop. I say this without reservation. I am 477 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:04,880 Speaker 3: a I am a stimulant used disorder is my That's 478 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 3: how I got here, specifically, cocaine use disorder. That's what 479 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:10,119 Speaker 3: That's what brought me to my knees and brought me 480 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 3: into a place of needing recovery again and again when 481 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 3: like a one time thing, I said treatment early and often, Okay. 482 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 3: That is what started me on down the recovery pathway. 483 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 3: Since that time, I have had the opportunity of seeing 484 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:34,360 Speaker 3: so many other beautiful ways that people recover, including harm 485 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 3: reduction pathways. I I had a wonderful conversation. I know 486 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 3: this is going to sound odd to people that are 487 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 3: sort of wed to this abstinence based thing, which I'm 488 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 3: no longer wed to that. I mean, it's it is 489 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 3: what I practiced today, but I'm not I'm not wed 490 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 3: to it because I've seen so many other people have 491 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 3: success in in other in other ways. And what I 492 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 3: what I know is what works for me is obviously 493 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 3: that that particular substance, that substance does not work for me. 494 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 3: And I'm i'm i'm I'm I'm convinced. I've done enough 495 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 3: field research. I'm convinced on that it is an evidence 496 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 3: based practice that. 497 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 2: That evidence is conclusive yes. 498 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 3: The evidence is conclusive on that, but I've run it. 499 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 3: I've come into contact with people over and over the years, 500 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 3: and not like just one guy that showed up one time, 501 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 3: but I've come into contact with the guy over a 502 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 3: period of six or seven years now that is someone 503 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 3: that recreationally uses other substances and and and I've actually 504 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 3: not just one guy, but a number of people that 505 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 3: that do that recreationally, but they seem to be able 506 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 3: to manage the rest of their life. And I think 507 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 3: one of the biggest mistakes, and I won't I'm not 508 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 3: leading into on learning, but one of the biggest mistakes 509 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 3: that people with substance use disorder make is the assumption 510 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 3: that my reality is your reality. That's not true. I 511 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 3: really think there might just. 512 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: Be people in general people with substance use disorders. Yes, 513 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 1: but I think that's like a human condition. 514 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,719 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's not true. And and the thing is, 515 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 3: it's okay if I just think that in my head 516 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 3: and I never say anything. But unfortunately, we have policymakers 517 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 3: operating from that perspective. We have people routinely sentencing people 518 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 3: to treatment that doesn't work for them. You got people 519 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 3: sending black meals to treatment where the fallout rate for 520 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 3: black meals is ninety eight percent, and then reincarcerating them 521 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 3: when they are when they the thing that happens to 522 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 3: ninety eight percent of the people that go there happens 523 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 3: to them, and then the judge says, you're you, you're 524 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 3: your non compliant, so you got to go back to you, 525 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:40,240 Speaker 3: right right. 526 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: Ninety eight percent says is not me? Ninety eight percent 527 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: says is you? 528 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 3: So it's it's not it is So I guess I guess. 529 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 3: I said all that to say my pathway, I start 530 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 3: in twelve steps where I can. I still participate there. 531 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 3: I participate in some participate in some harm reduction groups 532 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 3: as well, just because I understand the importance of allowing 533 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 3: pathways for people that don't necessarily get it the way 534 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 3: that I got it. I'm associated with a group called 535 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 3: eight Dimensions of Recovery, where we don't we don't really 536 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 3: talk about we don't really talk about use or not use. 537 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 3: We talk about wellness and the dimensions of intellectual, social, emotional, physical, environmental, occupational, 538 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 3: and financial. I think that's it anyway. Those sour Our 539 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 3: meetings every week are just about that. We have people 540 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 3: in there that use substances and people that don't, But 541 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 3: we don't care. We're We're interested in are you well? 542 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 3: And that's that's really kind of so like So that's 543 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 3: what I mean, Like where you start isn't necessarily where 544 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 3: you finish. So I may have started in abstinence, but 545 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 3: today I'm in wellness. Like where am I am I well? 546 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 3: In those eight dimensions? Is am I am? I? Am 547 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 3: I helping other human beings? I am I giving back 548 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 3: to my community? And when when I'm doing all those things, 549 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 3: I'm good? And the the I also have a secret 550 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 3: weapon in that at faces and Voices. We've been studying 551 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 3: every outcomes since twenty seventeen. I've we've been collecting data 552 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 3: on it, and we can see in our data that 553 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 3: there is not a straight line connection between abstinence and improvement. 554 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 3: And I will not say social determins of health because 555 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 3: I think that's a bunch of the structural or political 556 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 3: determinants of health that exists. We see improvements in those 557 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:27,239 Speaker 3: areas regardless of use or lack of use. There's a 558 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 3: tighter connection or a tighter correlation between stable housing and 559 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 3: stable employment to overall satisfaction of life. Than there is 560 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 3: to stable housing and abstinence. So the data tells me 561 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 3: that my life experience tells me that I know that 562 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 3: that's not the only thing, and it's really important to 563 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 3: me that I make room for people to get well 564 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:52,720 Speaker 3: however they need to get well. 565 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 1: So what you did there which was so important, which 566 00:32:56,600 --> 00:33:02,960 Speaker 1: is actually a massive frame shift for healthcare, the recovery community, 567 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 1: the treatment community, is that you made the target outcome 568 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 1: satisfaction with life, whereas the target outcome has been cessation 569 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 1: of drug use. It's a huge, massive, necessary frame shift 570 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: if we actually want to be like, is it just 571 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 1: important to us that people don't use drugs but they're 572 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 1: still suffering, or is it important to us that people 573 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: are not suffering. 574 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,360 Speaker 3: Well, I think there's some willful ignorance there, and I'll 575 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 3: tell you why I say that, because so if you 576 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 3: look at someone with alcohol, and part of it too 577 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 3: is just like like just not understanding the science. But 578 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 3: if you look at someone with alcohol use disorder and 579 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,040 Speaker 3: they're drinking to the point where they have liver, they 580 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 3: have physical consequences. Right, there's a liver problem, there's some 581 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 3: sort of esophageal problem, there's something associated with that you 582 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,360 Speaker 3: can make a good faith argument that if you remove 583 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 3: that toxin from their liver or from their esophagus, that 584 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 3: those health components will improve. Now, you haven't done anything 585 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 3: about their quality of life, you haven't done anything about 586 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 3: their overall satisfaction. But you can make a case that 587 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 3: if you take that that substance away, that that particular 588 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:24,440 Speaker 3: organ will improve. And if you stop there, that's okay, 589 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 3: But that's not that's that that's a very nineteen twenties 590 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 3: kind of look at at human beings that that we 591 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 3: don't do that for anything else. When we're looking at 592 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 3: at other healthcare issues, we want to talk about what 593 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 3: is the quality of life for the patient, And we 594 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:44,360 Speaker 3: also the other crazy thing is like what other condition 595 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 3: do we say, Oh, there's one way to do it, 596 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 3: that's it. What's that you got? You got hypertension? We 597 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 3: got one drug, you take it. 598 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,440 Speaker 2: Got one drug, that's it, you know, and if it 599 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:54,640 Speaker 2: is your. 600 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:58,920 Speaker 3: Fault, yeah, yeah, you're you're to blame. I actually was 601 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,120 Speaker 3: trying to get a build campaign go and I couldn't 602 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 3: get people to buy into it. But I wanted to 603 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:06,200 Speaker 3: have someone like shaking their finger over a cancer patient 604 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:11,400 Speaker 3: saying you and your damn cancer. Like it's so so, 605 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 3: that's what I mean by willful ignorance, right Like, we're 606 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 3: applying methodologies that made sense in the twenties. In the twenties, 607 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,439 Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, this person, their liver is gonna pop 608 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:23,360 Speaker 3: out of their chest. We got to do something to 609 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,120 Speaker 3: help their liver. Maybe they should have a cessation of 610 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,279 Speaker 3: the thing that's making their liver bad. Right Like, that 611 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 3: makes a certain amount of sense. However, well that was 612 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 3: one hundred years ago. See that this country has a problem, Todd. 613 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 3: I can do a whole thing on that later. But anyway, 614 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 3: I just I think that that we need to be 615 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:47,200 Speaker 3: looking at things that improve overall satisfaction. And when I'm 616 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 3: on the hill, I don't talk about all the touchy 617 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:54,960 Speaker 3: feely stuff I talk about. I talk about GDP. I 618 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,800 Speaker 3: talk about what the impact of getting someone from a 619 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 3: position of incarceration, repeated involvement with law enforcement trips to 620 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 3: the emergency room versus stable housing and stabley. That is 621 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:10,399 Speaker 3: a GDP win that is on the order of about 622 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:12,400 Speaker 3: one hundred thousand dollars a year. That is a GDP 623 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 3: win so per person, right, per person, per individual. So 624 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 3: we need to be looking at that if we're if 625 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 3: we're if we're just talking straight policy, we need to 626 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 3: be looking at that. I happen to think humans are 627 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,200 Speaker 3: worth it, so I look at it a little bit differently, 628 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,719 Speaker 3: but there's no way to argue against it. 629 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 2: It's win. 630 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 1: When humans are worth it and it saves money, we 631 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:38,440 Speaker 1: can we can all win, right yep? Okay, listen, you 632 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 1: opened up and you were like, do we have seventeen hours? 633 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 1: Then I wish we did because you are preaching and 634 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,360 Speaker 1: I am definitely the choir. 635 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 2: But let's run and let's roll into. 636 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,759 Speaker 1: This last question which I gave you the heads up on, 637 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:57,799 Speaker 1: and you have been schooling us this entire thing. I mean, 638 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,879 Speaker 1: we have a whole list of on learns, undos, uncovers. 639 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:04,080 Speaker 1: But if you were going to bring it down to 640 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 1: one that you want to be the last thought that 641 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:12,239 Speaker 1: people listening here from Phil Rutherford today, what would you 642 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 1: bring it down to? 643 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,319 Speaker 3: I think it it and I kind of previewed it. 644 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,839 Speaker 3: We have to unlearn that there's only one way. There's 645 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,360 Speaker 3: there's an infinite number of ways. We have to undo 646 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 3: the the policies that are driving us into it. We 647 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,799 Speaker 3: are headed for. Just as an aside, again, back to 648 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 3: the hill. I this past year, I've heard whispers of 649 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:40,080 Speaker 3: enhanced sentencing around sentinel pills that are pouring into black neighborhoods. 650 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 3: We have to undo policy that unfairly incarcerates people, and 651 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,920 Speaker 3: we have to uncover up. We have to uncover a 652 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 3: framework that is equitable for everyone. And I know that 653 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 3: kind of sounds pollyanna ish, but it there. It is possible. 654 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 3: It is possible to have human beings, some that use drugs, 655 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:06,799 Speaker 3: some that don't. Is possible to have them in a 656 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,400 Speaker 3: polite society. It can be done. Now. We don't have 657 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,000 Speaker 3: a lot of good examples in this country. You've got 658 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:16,120 Speaker 3: some stuff going on in Orgon that is an example 659 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:18,880 Speaker 3: of not really figuring out policy all that well. 660 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 2: But yeah, didn't think it through. 661 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:25,759 Speaker 3: But it can be done. I don't think. I don't 662 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,200 Speaker 3: think it's a lost cause. So you said one thing. 663 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,280 Speaker 3: I gave you three, but you said unlearning. 664 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:36,280 Speaker 1: Overachiever, overachiever, under promise, over deliver. 665 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:37,279 Speaker 3: Yep, yep. 666 00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:41,000 Speaker 1: That was amazing. Thank you so much, philed. This is 667 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:43,920 Speaker 1: one I learned a lot from you. I feel some 668 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:46,319 Speaker 1: kind of way that I didn't know about your organization, 669 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:50,799 Speaker 1: but now I know about it. I learned about eight 670 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:55,319 Speaker 1: Dimensions of Wellness as a support organization that I can 671 00:38:55,360 --> 00:39:01,880 Speaker 1: begin recommending for people. And two you just you're motivational, 672 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:04,360 Speaker 1: and so what I hope is that people will listen 673 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:09,320 Speaker 1: to this and feel moved to learn more about everything 674 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 1: you have begun teaching us about today. 675 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,239 Speaker 3: Yeah, and do thank you, thank you, thank you. I 676 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,279 Speaker 3: really appreciate the opportunity. I want people to do the 677 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:22,080 Speaker 3: same thing I wouldn't. Don't talk about it, be about it. 678 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 2: Go ahead, do it, so go do it. 679 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,680 Speaker 1: With that, I'm going to roll us out of here. 680 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:34,640 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for tuning in. My book on Addiction, 681 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:38,400 Speaker 1: Six Mind Changing Conversations that Could Save a Life is 682 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:42,280 Speaker 1: now available for pre order at bookshop dot org, Union 683 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:46,880 Speaker 1: Square and Company, Barnes and Noble, Amazon, and wherever books 684 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:50,120 Speaker 1: are sold. If you like to this episode, please share 685 00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:53,320 Speaker 1: it with someone you think may need to hear it. Also, 686 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:56,879 Speaker 1: please subscribe to this podcast and leave a five star 687 00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:59,880 Speaker 1: review that helps us reach any and everyone who may 688 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,360 Speaker 1: be looking for support in the face of addiction.