WEBVTT - Billionaire Sacklers Get Immunity From Lawsuits 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:08.760 This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:09.119 --> 0:00:12.880 More than two years ago, members of Purdue Pharma's Sackler family, 0:00:13.119 --> 0:00:16.480 who earned billions of dollars from the sale of oxyconton 0:00:16.560 --> 0:00:20.560 and other opioids, were questioned in Congress about their company's 0:00:20.680 --> 0:00:24.840 role in the deadly opioid epidemic. David and Kathy Sackler 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:29.360 expressed regret over the crisis, but did not admit any wrongdoing. 0:00:29.920 --> 0:00:33.159 I want to express my family's deep sadness about the 0:00:33.200 --> 0:00:37.920 opioid crisis. Oxyconton has a medicine that Purdue intended to 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:38.640 help people. 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:43.240 I know the loss of any family member or loved 0:00:43.280 --> 0:00:48.479 one is terribly painful, and nothing is more tragic than 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:51.479 the loss of a child. And now the Second Circuit 0:00:51.520 --> 0:00:55.240 Court of Appeals has found that the billionaire Sacklers can 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:58.920 be shielded against future opioid lawsuits as part of the 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:03.440 company's bankruptcy, even though they did not file for bankruptcy themselves. 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:06.440 This clears the way for a settlement of thousands of 0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:10.160 legal claims, where the Sacklers will pay six billion dollars, 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:14.480 about half of their fortune, and give up ownership of Purdue, 0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:18.240 joining me is John Coffee, a professor Columbia Law School 0:01:18.680 --> 0:01:21.959 and a business law expert. Jack tell us about the 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:25.240 Second Circuit decision and some of the background. 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:29.480 What you should understand is, in the traditional bankruptcy case, 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:34.039 under something called Chapter eleven, only the claims of the 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:37.880 bankrupt debtor are resolved. No one else gets a release. 0:01:38.280 --> 0:01:41.440 This is a case evolving a release to a third party, 0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:46.280 the Sackler family. That did not normally happen in bankruptcy, 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:49.400 but there has been a very new trend. There is 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:52.280 a case involving the Boy Scouts that releases were given 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:54.320 to all the Boy Scout leaders as well as to 0:01:54.440 --> 0:01:57.400 the Boy Scout entity which is bankrupt. The Boy Scouts 0:01:57.440 --> 0:02:03.200 were also overwhelmed by thousands of involving sexual misconduct. Exceptions 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:05.919 have occurred, but they were pretty rare. Now, what happened 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:09.520 in this case is the bankruptcy judge, looking at an 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:15.080 unending lifetime of litigation with Purdue Pharma and its oxycotton climbs, 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:19.040 did approve a settlement that gave a release to all 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:22.800 the Sacklers. The district court then reversed him and said 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:26.880 there was no support under the bankruptcy laws for giving 0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:30.919 this kind of release, all right, The second Circuit heard 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:34.200 the appeal, and now things get a little strange. The 0:02:34.240 --> 0:02:37.720 Second Circuit sat on this for over a year after 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:39.800 it was argued in the Second Circuit, but usually be 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:42.000 out with the case in a couple of months. So 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:45.280 they obviously hit some difficulties with it. And there is 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:49.120 a concurring descending opinion that says this case is very 0:02:49.160 --> 0:02:53.200 unusual and we shouldn't do this again. Unfortunately, it's very 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:56.120 likely that they will do it again, because everyone plans. 0:02:56.120 --> 0:02:59.040 Some people who plan bankruptcies are now going to plan 0:02:59.360 --> 0:03:03.520 to have a major contribution by the controlling shareholders and 0:03:03.600 --> 0:03:06.600 give them third party releases. You see, in this kind 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:10.399 of case, you could sue not only the corporation Perdue Pharma, 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:13.359 but the Sackler family, which had made all the decisions 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:17.120 about how to market and sell oxy cotton effectively to 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:19.600 the masses and not just to a very limited audience. 0:03:20.280 --> 0:03:23.359 So we have a problem with whether or not third 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:27.440 party releases will become common bankruptcies because the debtor and 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:30.320 its lawyers can plan these things in advance and will 0:03:30.360 --> 0:03:32.120 try to maximize their releases. 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:34.880 Are courts too eager to get a settlement in a 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:36.120 bankruptcy proceeding. 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:39.880 Bankruptcy courts and bankruptcy law are having a particular problem 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:44.400 with mass torts. Purdue Pharma was oxy cotton. There's another 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:46.680 case it's in the courts a lot, getting a lot 0:03:46.720 --> 0:03:50.160 of attention, which is Johnson and Johnson and its problem 0:03:50.200 --> 0:03:53.240 with talcum powder. Billions of dollars of claims have been 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:56.360 raised on the grounds the talcum powder causes women to 0:03:56.400 --> 0:04:00.960 get a variety of cancers. And that district court approved 0:04:01.000 --> 0:04:04.839 such a settlement allowing Johnson and Johnson to take all 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:08.120 of their liabilities and all their subsidiaries, put it in 0:04:08.200 --> 0:04:11.880 one subsidiary only, and then immediately put that subsidiary into bankruptcy. 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:14.640 District court allowed, that bankruptcy court allowed there, but the 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:18.440 Second Circuit has reversed it, and Don Johnson and Johnson 0:04:18.560 --> 0:04:21.440 is suggesting they may go to the Supreme Court. I'm 0:04:21.480 --> 0:04:25.279 just saying there's a general pattern here of bankruptcy courts 0:04:25.560 --> 0:04:27.839 being very interested in getting a settlement because they don't 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:30.039 want to spend a lifetime on one case. And what 0:04:30.120 --> 0:04:33.400 made the Sackler case so attractive to the bankruptcy court 0:04:33.520 --> 0:04:36.640 and ultimately to the Second Circuit is that the Sackler 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:40.680 family ultimately sweetened the settlement by adding six billion of 0:04:40.720 --> 0:04:42.200 their own money. Now, I have to tell you that 0:04:42.279 --> 0:04:44.640 six billion of their own money was money they took 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:47.200 out of Purdue Farmer in the last days. For the 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:51.040 last ten years, Perdue Farmer was run basically recognizing that 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:53.200 it was going to fail, and the Sacklers try to 0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:54.880 take all the money they could out of it. But 0:04:55.279 --> 0:04:59.000 adding six billion to the pool was a tremendous difference, 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:03.200 and I think that had seduced the courts into accepting 0:05:03.240 --> 0:05:07.480 an unusual provision, which, if it's generalized, is going to 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:11.640 work to the disadvantage of the creditors the claimants under 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:12.360 the long term. 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:16.240 I just want to clarify this. The family demanded they 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:19.480 get full immunity from all civil legal claims before they 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:23.240 would settle, even though Perdue had filed for bankruptcy and 0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:25.640 the Sacklers as individuals had not. 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:29.280 That's exactly what is unusual. That is, if you want 0:05:29.279 --> 0:05:31.760 to go into bankruptcy, all your athts are going to 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:35.240 go into the pool. And if you don't go too bankruptcy, 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:39.839 you can make a contribution and say this contribution is 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:43.240 contingent upon the court giving us a release. The difference 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:45.920 between mollmost one hundred percent of your assets being in 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:49.640 the bankruptcy pool and a settlement under which maybe a 0:05:49.680 --> 0:05:52.480 thirty year assets are the six billion does not leave 0:05:52.520 --> 0:05:53.400 the Sackler's poor. 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:57.520 Six billion. That's just a little over half of their wealth. 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:00.479 So it is nice to have happy. You know, the 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:02.560 first three billion that you own are the most important. 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:07.160 So they haven't admitted their role in fueling the opioid crisis, 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:10.880 and this just gives them a pass. So what's the sigmal? 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:14.360 I mean, look at it this way. The claimants for 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:18.320 getting nothing because Perdue Farmer didn't have much left. They 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:20.720 didn't file for bankruptcy too. They were down to their 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:23.640 last stages because they've been sued and suited and sued. 0:06:24.120 --> 0:06:27.320 I think that the argument that E actually moved the 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:30.679 second Circuit judges, or moved two of them, was that 0:06:31.160 --> 0:06:34.039 this settlement is never going to be resolved and the 0:06:34.080 --> 0:06:36.360 claimants are not going to live forever, and we want 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:39.320 to get money to people during their lifetimes. And six billion, 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:41.320 that's a lot more money that was in the pool. 0:06:41.600 --> 0:06:44.480 That's a multiple of the assets that Purdue Pharmer had 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:47.719 left but we did leave the Sacklers very well off, 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:50.880 just like yesterday's legislation. Neither side is happy. 0:06:51.160 --> 0:06:53.719 Can this decision be appealed to the Supreme Court? 0:06:53.960 --> 0:06:56.000 It can, but it probably won't be. What you have 0:06:56.120 --> 0:06:59.359 to realize is that most of the claimants went along 0:06:59.400 --> 0:07:02.280 with this. The waited so long. They were very happy 0:07:02.400 --> 0:07:05.159 to get a six billion contribution that gave them something. 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:08.440 The only claimants that are really left are the Canadian claimants. 0:07:08.800 --> 0:07:11.960 The betting is and I've seen this in several sources 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:14.920 that they probably won't appeal, but they might they could. 0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:20.600 This doesn't protect the family members from any potential criminal charges, no, but. 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:23.520 The statue of limitations probably does. You've got to realize 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:26.160 that the high point of all this is the nineteen nineties. 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:28.760 Oxyconton took over the country and became the drug of 0:07:28.880 --> 0:07:32.880 choice back in the nineteen nineties, and Flocks has been 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:35.440 replaced by much more powerful things like Bethanel. 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:38.480 I mean, this sounds like a good deal for the Sacklers. 0:07:38.720 --> 0:07:41.320 Oh yes, well, they made this good deal and they 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:44.840 made a contention on the court approving And I got 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:47.840 to tell you that the bankruptcy court itself see is 0:07:47.880 --> 0:07:51.280 a lifetime a career just hearing these claims, wants to 0:07:51.360 --> 0:07:54.400 escape that and sees no money going to the claimants 0:07:54.400 --> 0:07:56.800 who are running the court and complaining and screaming they 0:07:56.880 --> 0:08:01.160 need money to survive. And six billion certainly made a difference, 0:08:01.600 --> 0:08:04.720 But it does mean that bankruptcy law changes, and I'm 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:06.920 afraid we're going to see a lot more of these 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:09.920 settlements because now any bankruptcy in New York will be 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:12.920 governed by this. And there's a similar decision in the 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:15.720 Third Circuit. So I think in the Northeast you're going 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:19.800 to see a lot of third party claimants not filing 0:08:19.840 --> 0:08:23.760 for bankruptcy, not subjecting all their assets to the bankruptcy court, 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:27.280 but making some kind of offer. There might be negotiations, 0:08:27.480 --> 0:08:29.360 but some kind of offer that if we put in 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:32.079 this much money, we will get a release for all 0:08:32.160 --> 0:08:34.880 civil liability. You don't get a release, as you quite 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:38.240 properly say, from criminal liability. But the statue of limitations 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:41.319 is now long wrong run on most of this. 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:44.400 As part of the settlement, they're going to give up 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:45.960 ownership of the company. 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:49.480 The company is being turned into a not for profit, 0:08:49.760 --> 0:08:51.920 and the company was bankrupt, there was no great value 0:08:52.200 --> 0:08:56.840 all it's going to do is produce addiction preventing drugs 0:08:57.160 --> 0:09:00.640 and other drugs that will be sold on a cost bases. 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:03.000 They're not going to try to make any profit, and 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:06.080 all the money made by Perdue Pharma, which has a 0:09:06.080 --> 0:09:09.080 new name now, will be given to charity if Secklers 0:09:09.080 --> 0:09:12.160 will no longer own Perdue Pharma. But of course Perdue 0:09:12.200 --> 0:09:14.640 Farmer was failing. You don't want to own something that's 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:16.080 losing money in bankruptcy. 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:19.600 So what struck me as kind of funny is that 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:21.920 the family is going to allow their name to be 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:24.480 removed from buildings and scholarships. 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:27.680 But that's already happened. I'm a Columbia. Columbia took the 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:29.480 Sacklers off many years ago. 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:32.480 But their name can't be disparaged. While that's happening. It 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:35.439 seems like they just got every which way whatever they want. 0:09:35.840 --> 0:09:40.280 They got a lot. Now now disparagement, Well that's not unusual. 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:43.559 I think what that means is the university is taking 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:46.360 the name off. Can't say anything negative. They just say 0:09:46.400 --> 0:09:48.400 we are removing the name and it will now be 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:52.400 known as the Anthropology Hall wherever it's called the Sackler 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:53.240 Anthropology Hall. 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:55.200 So now what's the next step. 0:09:55.480 --> 0:09:58.600 Well, there could be an appeal. Few people think that 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:01.800 there will be appeals, And if there are appeals, it's 0:10:01.800 --> 0:10:03.840 not at all clear the Supreme Court will take it. 0:10:04.160 --> 0:10:06.760 The Supreme Court may not appeared in de ciding a 0:10:06.800 --> 0:10:09.760 bankruptcy lay issue. Remember, the Supreme Court only takes about 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:13.080 five or six percent of the sotuary appeals brought to her. 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:16.040 And if they don't get sociary, the case is now final. 0:10:16.200 --> 0:10:19.000 If they do get sotuary, I can't tell you what 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:22.600 the Supreme Court would do. I think it is less 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:25.120 than likely that the Supreme Court will take the case. 0:10:25.840 --> 0:10:28.360 Thanks so much for being on the show. That's Professor 0:10:28.440 --> 0:10:30.440 John Coffee of Columbia Law School. 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:34.200 There been one hundred and twenty twenty three days to 0:10:34.240 --> 0:10:36.160 president non voting three absent. 0:10:36.960 --> 0:10:41.400 The resolution is adopted and with that, Texas Attorney General 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:45.760 Ken Paxton, a champion of far right GOP legal fights 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:50.720 over guns, abortion, and immigration, was impeached in an extraordinary 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:55.280 vote by the state's Republican dominated House of Representatives, which 0:10:55.400 --> 0:10:59.960 charge him with bribery, obstruction of justice, and eighteen other offenses. 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:03.880 Is Paxton lashed out at the impeachment proceedings. 0:11:04.679 --> 0:11:10.120 Every politician who supports this deceitful impeachment attempt will then 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:14.600 flict lasting damage on the credibility of the Texas House 0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:15.400 which I served in. 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:18.959 The proceedings are historic. There have been only two other 0:11:19.080 --> 0:11:22.960 impeachments in Texas has nearly two hundred year history, and 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:26.360 now the political showdown is headed to the state Senate. 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:31.319 Joining me, as Madeline Meckelberg Bloomberg Texas Legal reporter, start 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:37.880 by telling us about Ken Paxton as a conservative agitator, 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:42.199 an election denier, bringing so many lawsuits against the Biden 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:44.240 and Obama administrations. 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:48.559 You hit on all of the headlines there for Paxton. 0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:53.520 Paxton is a long time Republican elected official in Texas. 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:57.079 He's held office here for the past twenty years, most 0:11:57.080 --> 0:12:00.640 recently at Attorney General, and in that role he really 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:04.679 has cultivated this national reputation of being a leading voice 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:09.120 on these hot button GOP political issues that includes abortion, 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:13.400 gun rights, immigration, the border is a big focus for him. 0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:17.200 And then he really became a key ally of former 0:12:17.240 --> 0:12:20.640 President Donald Trump. And you mentioned it already. He was 0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:23.960 a leading voice when it came to denying the legitimacy 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:28.719 of the twenty twenty presidential election, he launched an unsuccessful 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:31.920 case before the US Supreme Court seeking to overturn those 0:12:31.960 --> 0:12:35.559 election results. And he has just stayed in that lane, 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:39.679 known for being a conservative firebrand on every issue, and 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:43.920 really built his career as Attorney General on doing the 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:47.640 Obama administration and now doing the Biden administration. 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:54.440 Have allegations of criminal and ethical misconduct followed him through 0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:59.680 his tenure as Attorney general, so since twenty fourteen, yes 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:00.240 they have. 0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:03.559 He was elected to AG in twenty fourteen, as you said, 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:06.520 and then just a few months later he was actually 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:11.080 indicted on security spread charges. He was accused of persuading 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:14.439 investors to buy stock in this tech firm without disclosing 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:18.120 that he would be compensated for that. And ever since 0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:22.040 then the allegations against him have grown in their scope 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:25.120 and they've really now shifted to be about his conduct 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:28.719 while in office. But ever since then, he has been 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:34.800 hounded by these different allegations, including bribery, including abusive office 0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:38.360 and the like, and he's been under investigation by federal 0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:43.120 authorities which is ongoing. He's part of multiple lawsuits around 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:47.080 this wrongdoing allegedly and the criminal case against him connected 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:50.760 to that initial indictment is still ongoing. It's yet to 0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:51.440 be resolved. 0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:55.079 So you just went through the litany of problems he's had. 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:59.320 What happened to lead to this impeachment? After all the 0:13:59.600 --> 0:14:02.640 other inquiries, after all the stuff that's out there, he 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:05.239 was still reelected. What led to this impeachment? 0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:09.479 That is the million dollar question right now in Texas. 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:12.040 I mean to say the news this week was shocking 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:16.360 is an understatement considering how much Paxton has weathered as 0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:19.600 Attorney general. As you said, he was just re elected 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:22.600 to his third term in office, and these allegations have 0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:25.680 been out in the open in the public. I can 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:28.360 take you back to the saga of this week, how 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:32.000 this impeachment unfolded over the span of just a few days, 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:35.240 and it started with Paxton coming out and issuing this 0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:40.120 statement calling on House Speaker Dave Feelin to resign because 0:14:40.160 --> 0:14:42.640 there was a video circulating of him on the internet 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:46.200 that people were speculating he appeared to be intoxicated while 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:50.160 presiding over the Texas House this week, and Paxton called 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:53.840 on a House Ethics committee to hold an investigation into 0:14:53.880 --> 0:14:58.080 Feln's office. Later that day, that House Investigative Committee scheduled 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:01.160 a meeting, but the meeting was actually about them revealing 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:04.880 that they had been conducting a secret, month long investigation 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:08.600 into Paxton's conduct while in office, and they say that 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:13.000 this investigation was prompted by an ongoing whistle blower lawsuit 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:17.160 against Paxton that was brought by three high ranking officials 0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:21.000 in his office who say they were terminated after reporting 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:25.880 Paxton's two federal authorities for bribery. Paxton reached a settlement 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:30.440 agreement with those whistleblowers that totaled three point three million dollars, 0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:33.480 but since Paxton is a public official, that money had 0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:36.320 to be taxpayer dollars and it had to be approved 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:40.840 by state lawmakers in the budget. Lawmakers rejected that request, 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:44.160 but they say that him asking for that money required 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:48.200 them to conduct an investigation into the conduct behind the lawsuit, 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:50.440 and that's how we got to where we are today, 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:52.720 which is him being impeached by the full House. 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:57.320 I thought it was unusual that the committee said that 0:15:57.400 --> 0:16:00.720 if he hadn't requested that money, we wouldn't have been 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:05.400 this investigation. So tell us about the articles of impeachment. 0:16:06.040 --> 0:16:08.000 Yes, I think that's such a great point that you 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:10.680 highlighted they really made a point of saying, like, we 0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:13.400 wouldn't be doing this if you hadn't asked us for 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:15.800 this money. And so it's interesting that that was a 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:18.960 tipping point for them after all these years. But yes, 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:23.680 they conducted an investigation and they presented these twenty articles 0:16:23.680 --> 0:16:28.920 of impeachment that the full Republican dominated Texas House decided 0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:32.520 to vote and adopt over this past Memorial Day weekend. 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:36.880 And they're twenty articles that kind of spanned the years 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:39.960 of allegations against him that we were talking about earlier, 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:44.560 but they include things like bribery, obstruction of justice, abuse 0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:48.520 of public trust, and things under that umbrella, and the 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:52.160 bulk of them are around the allegations that were part 0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:55.280 of this whistleblower lawsuit that these employees say they were 0:16:55.280 --> 0:16:59.280 fired for reporting this bribery. Paxton has been accused of 0:16:59.400 --> 0:17:02.880 using his own office to aid a wealthy donor, Austin 0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:06.720 real estate developer Meet Paul, who's got his own hosts 0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:11.560 of legal problems and investigations into his business feelings. And 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:14.760 they say that Paxton was using his office to help 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:18.520 him and to conceal information from law enforcement, and he 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:23.600 was potentially giving confidential information to meet Paul about this 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:27.040 investigation into him, and that's where the bulk of these 0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:30.000 charges come from. They point to really specific actions that 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:33.320 they say Paxton took while in office in order to 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:34.000 help Paul. 0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:39.919 Were people in Texas or a legislator stunned by the 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:43.440 overwhelming majority voting to impeach him. 0:17:43.960 --> 0:17:47.119 Absolutely, I don't think I spoke to a single person 0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:51.119 who predicted that there would be an impeachment vote and 0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:54.160 that it would pass with such strong support in the House. 0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:57.440 The final vote was one hundred and twenty one lawmakers 0:17:57.520 --> 0:18:01.720 voting in favor and just twenty three voting against impeaching Paxson, 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:06.280 and that includes sixty of his Republican colleagues in the House. 0:18:06.359 --> 0:18:09.000 But the matter's not settled with the impeachment is just 0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:11.919 the charges. He hasn't been convicted of anything. Now the 0:18:11.960 --> 0:18:13.720 matter is going to turn over to the Senate, and 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:17.680 I think there's equal confusion about what might happen there. 0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:21.320 But yes, I mean during the debate on the House floor, 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:23.800 it was hard to know exactly how the vote was 0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:26.800 going to go. We had a Democrat stand up and say, 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:29.000 you know, I don't think I can vote in favor 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:31.440 of impeachment. I don't think we have enough information here, 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:34.000 and then we had Republicans come up and speak in 0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:36.760 favor of impeachment, and so for a while it was 0:18:36.800 --> 0:18:39.160 hard to know exactly how the final vote was going 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:39.439 to go. 0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:42.840 Is there any clue as to what his defense. 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:45.320 Will be, It's hard to say. We haven't heard him 0:18:45.440 --> 0:18:49.320 address the specific charges yet. So far, he's issued a 0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:53.199 few public statements responding to this, and he calls the 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:57.520 whole thing an illegal investigation and illegal impeachment. He says 0:18:57.600 --> 0:19:01.080 that Republicans who run the Texas govern here have been 0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:04.840 taken by Democrats and they're in Joe Biden's pocket. But 0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:08.399 we haven't heard him speak to this specific charges. His 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:12.280 office has issued a report that they say disput all 0:19:12.320 --> 0:19:15.080 of the allegations against him. It's not something they produced 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:18.280 in connection to the impeachment. It's something they had produced prior. 0:19:18.920 --> 0:19:22.399 But the investigators who helped to draft these articles of 0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:25.959 impeachment for the House Committee, they've said that that report 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:29.159 is full of inaccuracies and wrongdoing at this point, so 0:19:29.720 --> 0:19:32.400 it's really hard to say what we can expect from 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:35.720 him when this fully goes to trial, and that includes 0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:38.440 what we've been able to learn from these other lossuits 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:41.240 that I mentioned, none of these cases have really gotten 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:43.760 to a point where we've had to hear Paxton respond 0:19:43.920 --> 0:19:47.080 specifically to the allegations against him. And that's going to 0:19:47.160 --> 0:19:47.680 change now. 0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:52.879 And I understand his wife is a state senator. Is 0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:55.480 it known yet whether she's going to recuse herself. 0:19:56.040 --> 0:19:58.480 No, that's a huge question. The debate in the Senate 0:19:58.640 --> 0:20:01.000 is going to open up all of these different political 0:20:01.119 --> 0:20:04.560 questions because Paxton himself is a former state senator and 0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:07.000 so he served in that chamber with many of the 0:20:07.040 --> 0:20:10.119 members that are still there to this day. Those, of course, 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:13.840 are lesser conflicts of interest potentially than his own wife 0:20:13.880 --> 0:20:16.600 being asked to vote on whether he should be convicted 0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:20.000 of these charges. People have called for her to accuse herself, 0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:23.520 but she hasn't said anything. With TenneT Governor Dan Patrick 0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:26.560 is who presides over the Senate in Texas, and he 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:29.720 is also a Pakistan ally in that he is a 0:20:29.960 --> 0:20:33.280 Trump ally. They've been on the campaign stage with Trump 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:36.280 when he comes to Texas and they express a lot 0:20:36.320 --> 0:20:38.840 of the same interests. But we've heard Patrick come out 0:20:38.840 --> 0:20:41.359 and say, I want to conduct a really fair trial 0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:44.800 in the Senate. Don't know what that means exactly. That 0:20:44.840 --> 0:20:47.439 remains to be seen. He said that he's planning to 0:20:47.480 --> 0:20:51.080 set a date by no later than the end of August, 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:53.520 so we're expecting to see some kind of action on 0:20:53.600 --> 0:20:55.720 this this summer. But yeah, we don't really know any 0:20:55.760 --> 0:20:59.160 of the specifics yet. And yes, his wife, Senator Angela Paxton, 0:20:59.240 --> 0:21:02.360 has not said what her role may or may not 0:21:02.440 --> 0:21:04.000 be when that time comes. 0:21:04.760 --> 0:21:10.879 And were there allegations that Paxton threatened several Republican lawmakers 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:15.000 with political consequences in their next election if they voted 0:21:15.040 --> 0:21:15.800 for impeachment. 0:21:16.440 --> 0:21:18.960 Yeah, that was something that came out during debate on 0:21:19.119 --> 0:21:22.280 the Texas House floor on the articles of impeachment. State 0:21:22.320 --> 0:21:26.080 Representative Charlie Garan got up and said, I'm voting in 0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:30.000 favor of this. I note that within the time since 0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:33.440 these articles have been announced, Attorney General Paxton has been 0:21:33.480 --> 0:21:36.280 calling different lawmakers on the floor and telling them to 0:21:36.359 --> 0:21:39.480 vote against these articles of impeachment or they could face 0:21:39.560 --> 0:21:43.240 political retribution in the next election. We haven't seen any 0:21:43.320 --> 0:21:46.119 lawmakers come forward and say that, yes, that was me. 0:21:46.280 --> 0:21:49.520 I got the call from General Paxton. But that's definitely 0:21:49.520 --> 0:21:52.919 an allegation that's been circulating. People are saying in the 0:21:52.960 --> 0:21:57.880 Senate that he's distributed packets of information to senators defending 0:21:57.960 --> 0:22:02.919 himself from these allegations. So he's definitely doing whatever he 0:22:03.160 --> 0:22:06.280 can to defend himself at this point before court is 0:22:06.320 --> 0:22:09.120 in session, so to speak, and tell. 0:22:08.960 --> 0:22:13.399 Us just how unusual this impeachment is in Texas and 0:22:13.440 --> 0:22:15.920 a fact, across the country, this is. 0:22:16.240 --> 0:22:18.439 Very rare, and so that's why I think there's a 0:22:18.480 --> 0:22:21.760 lot of confusion speculation about what might happen in terms 0:22:21.760 --> 0:22:24.280 of the rules and who can vote, how it's going 0:22:24.359 --> 0:22:27.119 to play out across the whole country. It looks like 0:22:27.160 --> 0:22:30.040 he might be the fourth state attorney general ever to 0:22:30.080 --> 0:22:34.320 be impeached. Most recently, the attorney general in South Dakota 0:22:34.560 --> 0:22:37.600 was impeached and removed from office in twenty twenty two 0:22:37.840 --> 0:22:41.159