Speaker 1: Before we left the house, my brother said, can I
Speaker 1: come with you? And we said no, it's fine, it'll
Speaker 1: be fine. And I still remember he was standing on
Speaker 1: the upstairs banister and he said, can I get a
Speaker 1: pair of Jean's mom And she goes sure, and you know,
Speaker 1: we left the house and that was the last.
Speaker 2: Time I.
Speaker 3: Saw him, and I just.
Speaker 4: Felt horrible about being the sibling that got to survive.
Speaker 1: I felt like I couldn't save him.
Speaker 2: I felt like I failed him.
Speaker 5: Welcome to my Legacy. Before we begin today's episode, we
Speaker 5: want to let our listeners and viewers know that we
Speaker 5: will be discussing issues related to violence, suicide, and mental health.
Speaker 5: Some of the topics may be distressing. If you or
Speaker 5: someone you know is struggling, we encourage you to seek
Speaker 5: professional support. Resources like the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline dial
Speaker 5: nine eight eight or the crisis text hotline text home
Speaker 5: to seven four one seven four one are available twenty
Speaker 5: four to seven. Please know that this conversation is for
Speaker 5: information purposes only and does not constitute medical advice. Your
Speaker 5: well being is critically important. Please listen at your own pace,
Speaker 5: and please don't hesitate to take breaks or skip ahead
Speaker 5: of needed today, we have the privilege of sitting down
Speaker 5: with Nina Purewall, the international best selling author of Let
Speaker 5: That Shit Go. Nina's journey is one of extraordinary resilience,
Speaker 5: from profound loss to profound healing. She has taken life's
Speaker 5: hardest moments and turned them into a legacy of helping others. Now,
Speaker 5: what makes our conversations on my legacy unexpected and unique
Speaker 5: is that we don't just hear from extraordinary individuals. We
Speaker 5: hear from the people who know them best, those who
Speaker 5: have walked alongside them in their journey. Nina, thanks so
Speaker 5: much for joining us, and can you introduce us to
Speaker 5: your plus one?
Speaker 1: Absolutely, thank you so much for having us on. We
Speaker 1: are completely honored to be here, and I would like
Speaker 1: to introduce my plus one. This is Joe lions Rising.
Speaker 1: Joe and I have been good friends for over twenty years.
Speaker 1: We started out working together in data analytics, so we're
Speaker 1: both data geeks at heart. We have been on the
Speaker 1: journey together of going from corporate to social enterprise.
Speaker 2: We're both authors, and we.
Speaker 1: Are very passionate about mental health and wellness. Joe has
Speaker 1: a company that he founded called Data Gives Back, where
Speaker 1: he donates over twenty five percent of his earnings to
Speaker 1: an incredible organization call The Season Center for Grieving Children.
Speaker 1: But my intention of the plus one was to bring
Speaker 1: Joe on because he has an incredible story to tell
Speaker 1: and I want him to share his platform with everybody.
Speaker 6: Benina, sincerely, we love you. We are inspired by your story.
Speaker 6: We're inspired by your determination. We're inspired by who you are,
Speaker 6: by what you've overcome, by what you put out in
Speaker 6: the world. And Joe, it's just awesome to have you here.
Speaker 7: Nina, you faced a devastating loss as a teenager. In
Speaker 7: a real sense for me, I also faced a devastating
Speaker 7: loss of a father at a very early age, but
Speaker 7: one certainly that shaped the rest of your life. Can
Speaker 7: you share what you experienced and how years later you
Speaker 7: were able to choose forgiveness.
Speaker 1: I can see you and hear you and empathize with
Speaker 1: being a child and traumatically losing a parent. And this
Speaker 1: is why Joe and I are also good friends, because
Speaker 1: Joe has gone through childhood trauma as well, and we've
Speaker 1: been each other's great buddies throughout, which.
Speaker 2: Is so important.
Speaker 1: At sixteen, my parents were going through a pretty tumultuous
Speaker 1: separation Actually, my mom wanted to leave my dad after
Speaker 1: twenty two years of started what started out as physical
Speaker 1: abuse and then you know a lot of psychological verbal abuse.
Speaker 1: And she kind of made a promise to herself when
Speaker 1: my brother was born that you know, when my son
Speaker 1: turns ten, if this behavior continues, I'm leaving. And sure
Speaker 1: enough he turned ten, and she said, I can't do
Speaker 1: this anymore. This is nineteen ninety six, and so she
Speaker 1: served my dad with with divorce papers in December of
Speaker 1: ninety six, and it was six months of a lot
Speaker 1: of uncertainty, a lot of questionable behavior from my dad,
Speaker 1: a lot of inconsistency, and that culminated in him in
Speaker 1: May of nineteen ninety seven taking his own life life
Speaker 1: and also taking my brothers as well. And you know
Speaker 1: his it was premeditated and his plan was to take
Speaker 1: mine too. He obviously wanted revenge and wanted to get
Speaker 1: back at my mom and take you know, her kids
Speaker 1: and himself, and he burnt the house down. I did
Speaker 1: see the crime scene after the bodies were taken out.
Speaker 1: It was very intense, and in that moment I really
Speaker 1: had had nowhere to go. It was the nineties and
Speaker 1: nobody was talking about mental health.
Speaker 2: No one was talking.
Speaker 1: About really you were either in the psychiatric ward in
Speaker 1: the hospital or you were quote unquote normal. And I
Speaker 1: did a lot of reflecting, and this is why I'm
Speaker 1: so passionate about mental health and specifically men and mental
Speaker 1: health is I always think back to if my dad
Speaker 1: had had the support that people have now with things
Speaker 1: have still gone that way. So I am just so
Speaker 1: grateful and lucky every single day to be here and
Speaker 1: to be alive.
Speaker 2: Many years later.
Speaker 1: I mean, I couldn't even grieve my brother in the
Speaker 1: beginning because I was so furious and angry with my dad.
Speaker 1: I had PTSD, I had survivor's guilt, and then I
Speaker 1: kind of numbed my pain and I repressed it, which
Speaker 1: I wouldn't recommend for anyone. But I went and got
Speaker 1: my business degree. I had a great career in sales
Speaker 1: and marketing. I was thriving and living life, and then
Speaker 1: my mom passed away and everything hit me all over again,
Speaker 1: the loss, the grief.
Speaker 2: And suddenly I had this epiphany moment that.
Speaker 1: I am holding on to all of this anger and
Speaker 1: resentment about what my dad did, and he's dead and gone,
Speaker 1: so it's not impacting him anymore.
Speaker 2: Who was it impacting It's impacting me.
Speaker 1: And it was that moment that I realized my way
Speaker 1: out of this was forgiveness, not for him not to
Speaker 1: right his wrong, because when we forgive, we don't have
Speaker 1: to write wrongs, we don't have to make up, we
Speaker 1: don't have to be in a beautiful it's not a
Speaker 1: beautiful romantic period piece where you're I'm sorry, I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: I love you, I love you. It can be you
Speaker 1: can forgive someone who's no longer here. You can forgive
Speaker 1: someone who you don't want in your life anymore. And
Speaker 1: that's what I did. I went on a two year
Speaker 1: journey to forgive him, because forgiveness is freedom for you.
Speaker 1: You are letting go of the resentment, you are letting
Speaker 1: go of the anger. And it's incredible what transpired in
Speaker 1: my life after I went through that journey.
Speaker 6: Nina, before we get to that stage, I want to
Speaker 6: go back, because you and I have had extensive conversations
Speaker 6: on this, and I just want to say, on behalf
Speaker 6: of all of us. I'm getting choked up here just
Speaker 6: how sorry we are for the loss and the tragic
Speaker 6: nature of that loss. And I know you now look
Speaker 6: at that loss in a different way because because you
Speaker 6: also said something very powerful in so much that you
Speaker 6: had survived your's guild because you survived.
Speaker 1: You know, before we left the house and my brother
Speaker 1: said can I come with you?
Speaker 2: And we said no, it's fine, It'll be fine.
Speaker 1: And I still remember he was standing on the upstairs
Speaker 1: banister and he said, can I get a par of
Speaker 1: Jean's mom? And she goes sure, and you know, we
Speaker 1: left the house and that was.
Speaker 2: The last time I.
Speaker 3: Saw him, and I just.
Speaker 4: Felt horrible about being the sibling that got to survive.
Speaker 1: I felt like I couldn't save him.
Speaker 2: I felt like I failed him.
Speaker 1: I mean, those last few moments played over and over
Speaker 1: and over again in my head. I just did twenty
Speaker 1: weeks of trauma healing a few years ago to address
Speaker 1: the crime scene.
Speaker 2: But survivor's guilt is real.
Speaker 1: You feel terrible for living every day when the person
Speaker 1: or someone you love so much didn't get the same opportunity.
Speaker 8: And what is your advice? Because I'm sure that a
Speaker 8: lot of our listeners are experiencing that more than any
Speaker 8: of us even realize, and they may feel the same way,
Speaker 8: trapped and alone and feeling that survivor's guilt.
Speaker 2: Well, the first thing I always say, now you know, working.
Speaker 1: In mental health, is to feel those feelings, to feel
Speaker 1: the emotion. It's okay, it's healthy. But then you get
Speaker 1: to a point where you they they don't want you
Speaker 1: to feel that way that have passed.
Speaker 2: When I think.
Speaker 1: About what my brother would have wanted, or when I
Speaker 1: think about if the.
Speaker 2: Roles were reversed, you wouldn't want me.
Speaker 1: They don't want you to live the rest of your
Speaker 1: life wondering why or feeling terrible that.
Speaker 2: They were in this situation.
Speaker 1: They're they're in the light, They're they're happy, they're angels,
Speaker 1: they're looking down. You know, they're not suffering. And I
Speaker 1: think that was that was a big aha for me,
Speaker 1: is he's he's happy, and he's happy for me, and
Speaker 1: I feel him too, and you.
Speaker 2: Know he's moved on and he's free.
Speaker 1: We all struggled in that house growing up, and you
Speaker 1: know he's he's free.
Speaker 2: And so my.
Speaker 1: Advice would be to feel the fuels, to acknowledge you
Speaker 1: know where they are now, and then to also surround yourself,
Speaker 1: thirdly with people who who understand and to work through it.
Speaker 1: And I came across this organization called the Season Center
Speaker 1: for Grieving Children, which Joe donates back to, and you
Speaker 1: know where we are executive grief ambassadors now and that
Speaker 1: honestly saved my life. The peer to peer support, and
Speaker 1: I highly recommend that if you're going through loss, you're
Speaker 1: going through tragedy or trauma, is to talk to people
Speaker 1: who are.
Speaker 2: Going through something similar. And I was finally in.
Speaker 1: A room where teens had gone through very traumatic loss
Speaker 1: and at sixteen, I mean, it's been so many years now,
Speaker 1: I still remember everybody's story and finally I felt at home.
Speaker 1: I felt I didn't feel misunderstood. I felt like everybody
Speaker 1: got what I was going through. But if you really
Speaker 1: do feel stuck, to get the help, because I have
Speaker 1: had many I still have therapists, grief counselors, psychologists helped
Speaker 1: me go through this thing called life that we are
Speaker 1: all trying to navigate.
Speaker 5: Nina, thank you for sharing that with us. And the
Speaker 5: candor is besides, perhaps Martin, none of us can understand fully,
Speaker 5: but perhaps Joe, I know you also bring And I
Speaker 5: asked Nina why she invited you, and part of what
Speaker 5: she spoke about your incredible ambassadorship and also the fact
Speaker 5: that you have this unique bond that you and your
Speaker 5: youth experienced also this profound trauma, and would you share
Speaker 5: it with us so that people out there listening know
Speaker 5: that they're also not alone, that others have experienced that journey,
Speaker 5: and especially if you can share with us some of
Speaker 5: the journey of healing.
Speaker 9: Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 10: Nina and I, now you know, on our forties, we
Speaker 10: joke we're grief buddies. I do think the universe brought
Speaker 10: us together. Even though we met twenty years ago, we
Speaker 10: continued to be on this grief journey and it kind of.
Speaker 9: Gets stronger year by year.
Speaker 10: But yeah, I did go through significant loss as a
Speaker 10: child in the nineteen eighties. I lost my dad to
Speaker 10: suicide when I was six years old. He had struggled
Speaker 10: with bipolar and depression. And then a couple years later,
Speaker 10: my mom was diagnosed with multiple scrosis and unfortunately she
Speaker 10: used succumb to depression herself, and she died by suicide
Speaker 10: when I was ten. And you know, Nina and I
Speaker 10: didn't know that the first time we met, when we
Speaker 10: were doing market research and analytics, right, the first thing
Speaker 10: you say to each other when you're starting a new
Speaker 10: company are working, but I think it was at a
Speaker 10: house party you had had or something we had had,
Speaker 10: and somehow we started talking about this and it was
Speaker 10: like this instant magnetic force, like I have no idea
Speaker 10: what you went through, she doesn't know what I went through,
Speaker 10: but we can like incredibly empathize with each other. And
Speaker 10: that's been our connection and friendship. And it's been this
Speaker 10: journey since then.
Speaker 1: And one of the reasons why I'm so passionate about
Speaker 1: Joe sharing his story is because, as I said earlier,
Speaker 1: men in mental health.
Speaker 2: Is critically important.
Speaker 1: I have done so much research and just lived experience
Speaker 1: obviously of you know what happens when and traditionally, I
Speaker 1: know I'm generalizing here, but people who identify as men
Speaker 1: tend to not talk about their emotions as much and
Speaker 1: not go there. Women have a more supportive kind of network,
Speaker 1: and it's okay to meet up with a girlfriend and
Speaker 1: cry the whole time, and you know, it's just not
Speaker 1: as available for men. And so I really respect to
Speaker 1: Joe for creating that space. And his book does talk
Speaker 1: about grief and trauma and depression and anxiety, and I
Speaker 1: think it's important that we acknowledge.
Speaker 9: What we're going through well, Martin.
Speaker 5: I admire how you've been so open from a young
Speaker 5: age to encourage men to share their stories, and how
Speaker 5: you've done it so powerfully and so brilliantly.
Speaker 7: I wish our nation had addressed mental health thirty plus
Speaker 7: years ago, but I'm grateful that we as a society
Speaker 7: are working in that vein today. And I'm grateful for
Speaker 7: you sharing your story with our audience. And we don't
Speaker 7: know what kind of just the fact that you're able
Speaker 7: to share is healing. You're putting out healing energy into
Speaker 7: the universe, and you know it is vitally needed throughout
Speaker 7: our nation and our world for our society to become
Speaker 7: a better place and maybe for a sick society to
Speaker 7: provide some medicine for itself.
Speaker 8: And one of the things also that you both when
Speaker 8: you talk about forgiveness, I want to just also highlight
Speaker 8: what doctor King said about forgiveness, because one of the
Speaker 8: ways in which the civil rights movement and that they
Speaker 8: were able to continue on after your house is bombed,
Speaker 8: after you know, dogs are being sick on you after
Speaker 8: is that what that he he said is that you
Speaker 8: separate the evil.
Speaker 11: Act from the individual.
Speaker 8: That is also a way to forgive, because Nina, you're
Speaker 8: talking about you don't. You don't necess you don't forget,
Speaker 8: but you are able to and you don't say that
Speaker 8: what happened is okay. But what one thing that he
Speaker 8: taught is that we separate the act from the individual.
Speaker 2: I love that.
Speaker 1: That's so powerful, and I love that you both talk
Speaker 1: about love so much. And if we live from that place,
Speaker 1: I mean, we've seen the magic that's happened in the world.
Speaker 5: We'll be back shortly with more of this inspiring conversation.
Speaker 5: H you're listening to my legacy. We're so glad you're
Speaker 5: spending part of your day with us.
Speaker 7: You know, Joe and I know Nina's order shared this
Speaker 7: just a little bit early here. There's such a stigma
Speaker 7: around men opening up about mental health. How can we
Speaker 7: break that barrier?
Speaker 10: It's a very valid point, Martin, and I can say personally,
Speaker 10: even for when you know here I am at ten
Speaker 10: years old, having lost both parents of suicide, trying to
Speaker 10: figure out the world and navigate that. It took me
Speaker 10: in many decades to feel comfortable to open up. And
Speaker 10: I now looking back, you know see that I needed
Speaker 10: those safe places like a season center, like these different
Speaker 10: places that exist today. I also feel grateful to Bill
Speaker 10: and now openly talk about it. But that took me
Speaker 10: a long time. Took me to be in a very
Speaker 10: safe place. I have an incredible wife, two daughter's incredible friend.
Speaker 10: I'm in a very safe place and comfortable to do
Speaker 10: that now on an open platform.
Speaker 9: So I think that we can just start small, right.
Speaker 10: It can just be like one to one with a
Speaker 10: friend for men to I think we just need to
Speaker 10: get over this idea, and honestly, I think we need
Speaker 10: to learn from women how incredible powerful it is to cry.
Speaker 10: I cry in front of my daughters when I've had
Speaker 10: family members or friends pass away. I'm not going to
Speaker 10: just lock myself away or lock those feelings away. I'm
Speaker 10: going to express them. And man is at every therapeutic
Speaker 10: So I think that to stop like repressing and slowly
Speaker 10: let it be because actually it's not weakness, it's incredible
Speaker 10: strength to be able to do that. So's the that's
Speaker 10: the remix. That's a flip that we need to change
Speaker 10: in our society.
Speaker 7: What is the one thing you wish more men understood
Speaker 7: about their mental health and emotional well being?
Speaker 9: I would say that without it, we don't have much.
Speaker 10: Like we can put a lot of effort going to
Speaker 10: the gym, we can put a lot of effort into
Speaker 10: our physical appearance, our mental health is just as important,
Speaker 10: if not more important. And so you know, I kind
Speaker 10: of look at it like I go annually to do
Speaker 10: a physical I get checked in my mid forties now,
Speaker 10: so the other extra things we're getting checked.
Speaker 9: For that should be the same for mental health.
Speaker 10: It shouldn't feel like we're at a you know, a
Speaker 10: scale of nine to ten of a crisis.
Speaker 9: No, it's ongoing maintenance.
Speaker 10: We all, just society, especially men should be going to
Speaker 10: talk to someone.
Speaker 9: And that could be different, right, depending on the specialist
Speaker 9: or whatnot.
Speaker 10: But I think that getting over that fear of sharing
Speaker 10: is critical. So I think that making it more common,
Speaker 10: removing that stigma around sharing and getting help should be regular.
Speaker 1: It's also on the men receiving the messages, to receive
Speaker 1: it without judgment, without shame, with love. That's a really
Speaker 1: important piece as well, to just feel that's where the safe,
Speaker 1: psychologically safe space comes from, and we want men to
Speaker 1: feel that in the presence of men.
Speaker 6: Something you and I have talked about is the fact
Speaker 6: that trauma gets stuck in your nervous systems. Trauma gets
Speaker 6: stuck in your fascil system, in your fascia. At the
Speaker 6: end of the day, we have to get that trauma
Speaker 6: out of our bodies. How do we do that? How
Speaker 6: do we let that shit go?
Speaker 1: I think with trauma we have to look at in
Speaker 1: the face. We have to peel it back and we
Speaker 1: have to unpack it. And it doesn't feel good. And
Speaker 1: you know, you go through those those of you who
Speaker 1: have been in therapy.
Speaker 2: No, sometimes it gets worse before it gets better.
Speaker 1: So I think with trauma, you know, the acknowledgment and
Speaker 1: getting the help. And I unfortunately, as incredible as my
Speaker 1: mom was, and I'll forever put around a pedestal for
Speaker 1: the person that she was.
Speaker 2: Sometimes I believe she.
Speaker 1: Was diagnosed with als because you know, she never actually
Speaker 1: cried about my brother. She was, you know, she was
Speaker 1: eternally happy. But there's a bit of toxic positivity. There
Speaker 1: was a bit of spiritual bypassing. They call it, you know,
Speaker 1: good vibes only. It's not like that. Life is not
Speaker 1: good vibes only. We can't always be good vibes only.
Speaker 1: So just being brutally honest with where we are and
Speaker 1: kind of parallel pathing your life. You got to live,
Speaker 1: You got to move forward. That's something the Season Center
Speaker 1: taught me. You know, you got to pick up. No
Speaker 1: one's going to pick up the pieces for you. You
Speaker 1: got to do it and you got to move forward.
Speaker 1: But the healing part also picking up, you know, the
Speaker 1: trauma and the pieces that are, yeah, left inside of
Speaker 1: you because until you bring them. We have a saying
Speaker 1: in the book, you can't let that shit go unless
Speaker 1: you bring that shit to surface. And that's what you
Speaker 1: need to do with the traumas, bring into surface and
Speaker 1: move through it.
Speaker 6: But the fact, in the Western medicine context, so many
Speaker 6: times we've separated out physical health and mental health, and
Speaker 6: just what a crime to humanity that is, in my opinion,
Speaker 6: because so many of the challenges that we see in
Speaker 6: this world, and so many the disconnection stems from ourselves
Speaker 6: because we have that physical disconnection from our spiritual disconnection.
Speaker 6: And you and I've had these conversations about this, and
Speaker 6: you keep your spiritual health very much at the forefront.
Speaker 6: You clean and cleanse your spiritual engagement on an ongoing
Speaker 6: basis because the work you do, which is Martin does
Speaker 6: this is so hard and so challenging.
Speaker 8: You know, I worked for many years monitoring the klu
Speaker 8: Klux Klan and Neil Nazis and skin hits. And when
Speaker 8: I did that work, I had a picture on my
Speaker 8: wall to quote by Bill Hooks this say we must
Speaker 8: never become like that which we're fighting against.
Speaker 11: It was one of my north stars. And I feel that.
Speaker 8: In order to show up fully in love that we
Speaker 8: are talking about, we have to first put on that
Speaker 8: within ourselves even before we leave our home. You know,
Speaker 8: has to be a continual process. It's a continual commitment
Speaker 8: for me in how we go about just living our lives.
Speaker 5: And Joe, this is such a powerful conversation, and I
Speaker 5: know that some of our listeners will be both inspired
Speaker 5: and to say what is the truth? Some will be triggered,
Speaker 5: and some it was going to bring forth some of
Speaker 5: the trauma and some of what people have repressed themselves.
Speaker 5: And so for those individuals who are looking for help,
Speaker 5: we will have in our show notes, both on the
Speaker 5: app and on the video resources that are available from
Speaker 5: your own books of course, the two of you to
Speaker 5: the organizations that can be available for those who are
Speaker 5: looking for help. I'd be reminiscent, and to just quickly
Speaker 5: point out, in addition to the great resources of our
Speaker 5: incredible authors who are with us here today, the Body
Speaker 5: keep Score, of course, one of the seminal works about
Speaker 5: the physical connection on trauma, you know, being married to
Speaker 5: a psychologist, I'm going to put out some of the
Speaker 5: great things that you know, whether it's the Hoffman process,
Speaker 5: looking at some of the childhood trauma, you know, Nina
Speaker 5: Joyce you nodding your head, some of the great work
Speaker 5: that they do, cognitive behavioral therapy for people who are
Speaker 5: looking for help, seeing some of the great trauma supports
Speaker 5: out there. And I know, Andrea, there's something really important
Speaker 5: that you want to share.
Speaker 8: And I think it's also important for us all to
Speaker 8: highlight too that these resources will also include free resources,
Speaker 8: because we understand that everyone you know may not can
Speaker 8: afford some you know, their different you know, modalities or
Speaker 8: different ways to address all of this. But what we
Speaker 8: firmly believe is that that should not be a barrier
Speaker 8: to mental health. So we really want to make sure
Speaker 8: that our listeners know that they are free resources that
Speaker 8: they could also look into that will be listed as resources.
Speaker 6: You know, when it ask to you One of the
Speaker 6: people that you and I have spoken about extensively is
Speaker 6: doctor Gobor Matte, of course, somebody who is one of
Speaker 6: the world's leading experts on trauma. You've read his books.
Speaker 6: What have you learned from doctor Gobor Mate.
Speaker 1: I don't think we understand as a society what trauma.
Speaker 1: We're just starting to understand what it means and all
Speaker 1: the types of trauma that's out there.
Speaker 2: The way that he acknowledges whether it's trauma as.
Speaker 1: A society, or whether it's trauma as women, or whether
Speaker 1: it's you know, trauma we keep in our body.
Speaker 2: Follow him on Instagram, follow him on socials.
Speaker 1: He is constantly posting about, you know, the podcast interviews
Speaker 1: he's doing, or little segments of his keynotes, and he
Speaker 1: has really taught me.
Speaker 2: About really what trauma is, because.
Speaker 1: I think everybody's gone through trauma to some degree, so
Speaker 1: understanding and acknowledging whether it's you know, when you were
Speaker 1: a child and how you were raised, or you know,
Speaker 1: in a relationship, the kinds of trauma that shows up,
Speaker 1: or as a child as a parent.
Speaker 2: So he has really brought a lot of rigor to.
Speaker 1: The definition of trauma, and I think identif find what
Speaker 1: it is.
Speaker 2: And it was really hard for me to move on.
Speaker 1: I felt like I was walking the halls as the
Speaker 1: murder suicide girl.
Speaker 2: I couldn't sit through a class.
Speaker 1: I went from a straight A student to not being
Speaker 1: able to focus. And if you've read Oprah and doctor
Speaker 1: Bruce Perry's book on What Happened to You, you will
Speaker 1: understand that trauma impacts the brain. I just thought I
Speaker 1: was dumb all of a sudden, and so to have
Speaker 1: that validation of you know, actually your brain doesn't function
Speaker 1: as it used to, it was very frustrating.
Speaker 2: I couldn't focus, I couldn't retain anything. I couldn't do
Speaker 2: well in school.
Speaker 11: I was going to highlight too.
Speaker 8: How it also provides that understanding also leads to healing
Speaker 8: in our world. One of the things that I'm fascinated
Speaker 8: by is, you know, I remember a study. There's a
Speaker 8: group that worked in Boston that looked at the impact
Speaker 8: that poverty has on young people's brains. To your point,
Speaker 8: I think, Nina, I think you said it earlier. When
Speaker 8: you go through trauma, it literally impacts your brain, and
Speaker 8: they are now finding this with science. And so then
Speaker 8: when you say traditional things like okay, well, in order
Speaker 8: to you know, get out of poverty.
Speaker 11: You know, you write your goals, you do.
Speaker 8: That, but those things, if you're not addressing the physically,
Speaker 8: what's even happening in someone's brain, or understanding that that brain,
Speaker 8: their different parts that are wired differently because of the trauma.
Speaker 11: Even that will help not only.
Speaker 8: Individuals, but that understanding and will also I think bring
Speaker 8: a sense of healing to a lot of the things
Speaker 8: that we see in the world.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I had a pivotal moment with a university professor
Speaker 1: a few years ago. She wanted to do a fireside
Speaker 1: chat on mental health.
Speaker 2: And I was shocked.
Speaker 1: Because I'm going to be honest here and say, I
Speaker 1: know you're all scholars, But after I barely kind of
Speaker 1: I grazed through my degree and I thought, what does
Speaker 1: a university professor want to do, you know, talking to me?
Speaker 2: And I had told her, you know, when I was
Speaker 2: in university, it was a few years after the.
Speaker 1: Incident, and I would sit through lecture and leave and
Speaker 1: have no idea what the lecture was about. And you know,
Speaker 1: I did some testing after and how it affected my memory.
Speaker 2: Just so much of your brain.
Speaker 1: Is focused on that, and you know, we had this
Speaker 1: zoom call before the chat, you know, this was years later,
Speaker 1: and she looked at me through the screen and said,
Speaker 1: the fact that you got out of bed and you
Speaker 1: put your clothes on, and you got your backpack ready
Speaker 1: and you showed up to class is an absolute miracle.
Speaker 1: And it was such a validating moment for me. And
Speaker 1: I want everybody to acknowledge who's gone through trauma. It's
Speaker 1: okay if you're not operating with hiring all cylinders and
Speaker 1: crazy career and God, it's okay that you have gone
Speaker 1: through things and you're not functioning as maybe you were.
Speaker 2: Give yourself grace and compassion for that. Can I ask
Speaker 2: a question to Andrea and Martin.
Speaker 1: You have seen so much trauma, you've experienced it, you know,
Speaker 1: with with racism or even patriarchy with women. What inside
Speaker 1: of you keeps you going to fight this fight with love?
Speaker 2: So?
Speaker 7: You know, as a as a child, it was seeing
Speaker 7: you know, love and action through my father, my mother,
Speaker 7: my grandfather as a pastor, you know, my aunts and uncles,
Speaker 7: and it was fortunately the environment for me. I don't
Speaker 7: know how I would have been had I not been
Speaker 7: exposed to this method to navigate through so much change,
Speaker 7: but it was a physical example of what Dad did
Speaker 7: and what Mom did many years after after Dad. So
Speaker 7: if it didn't have examples, I said, I can't say
Speaker 7: that I would have maintain and sustained hope. But it
Speaker 7: was reinforcing situations and experiences and understand that you know,
Speaker 7: you can never give up. You have to always and
Speaker 7: really it sort of a decision. It's an intention. The
Speaker 7: intention is and no matter what happens every day, we
Speaker 7: have to intend to deposit positiveness within the world. So
Speaker 7: that's just who I chosen to be, and it reinforces itself.
Speaker 7: It's like what you all are sharing today on this podcast.
Speaker 7: I can't imagine how many people are going to be
Speaker 7: helped because you chose to show up and show up
Speaker 7: in a way that is helpful to what someone is
Speaker 7: going through right this moment.
Speaker 8: For me, it was I talked about earlier having that
Speaker 8: quote and being mindful that of who I am being
Speaker 8: and showing up in the world and that we will
Speaker 8: never eliminate hate or fear by bringing more of that
Speaker 8: into the world. And one of the things that I've
Speaker 8: been leaning on more and more is that quote of
Speaker 8: Gandhi when he says that when he despairs.
Speaker 11: He thinks about.
Speaker 8: That throughout history looks like tyranny and murderers would prevail,
Speaker 8: But when you really think about it, the way of
Speaker 8: love and truth and beauty has always prevailed over those things.
Speaker 8: We say a lot that, you know, the movement for humanity,
Speaker 8: the civil rights movement, is a movement of faith. It
Speaker 8: always looked impossible until it was done. And so that
Speaker 8: remembrance of it, that the fact that I understand that
Speaker 8: it is all of us, this is our time, and
Speaker 8: that collective long march in humanity. And what am I
Speaker 8: going to do with my time? Am I going to
Speaker 8: feed the flames of more fear and division and chaos?
Speaker 8: Or am I going to feed the flames of peace
Speaker 8: and justice and love? Am I going to feed the
Speaker 8: flames of Martin? Luther King Junior credits Scott King and
Speaker 8: Gandhi and Mother Teresa and Nelson Mandela and also remembering
Speaker 8: as a woman, remembering my.
Speaker 11: Power, our power.
Speaker 8: I think sometimes we look around and we feel powerless
Speaker 8: when the reality is that we're powerful, and and you know,
Speaker 8: and to follow up on that, Nina, you know, we've
Speaker 8: talked a lot, and I'm so glad that we've had
Speaker 8: the conversation about men's mental health because it's incredibly important.
Speaker 8: But I do want to ask on the other side
Speaker 8: that you know, women, as women are often expected to
Speaker 8: carry the emotional labor and their relationships and in families,
Speaker 8: So how do you navigate that balance between supporting others
Speaker 8: but also protecting your own well being, your own mental health.
Speaker 2: I make the time for it.
Speaker 1: I schedule time for self love and self care. And
Speaker 1: I also say that self love starts up here. We
Speaker 1: can go to all the spot a's, or spend time
Speaker 1: on the golf burs or be with girlfriends, but how
Speaker 1: are we talking to ourself?
Speaker 2: How is that import in there?
Speaker 1: What is it saying so constantly being aware of what's
Speaker 1: going on up here? And you know you talked about
Speaker 1: going to the gym, and we can't stop that mental.
Speaker 2: Health awareness because we go to the gym for.
Speaker 1: Six months and we get the six pack, and it
Speaker 1: doesn't stay if we stop going.
Speaker 2: So in the same way, constantly.
Speaker 1: Checking in and even budgeting a little bit for self
Speaker 1: love and well being and mental health.
Speaker 2: And it's not something I.
Speaker 1: Realized I needed to do till very recently, till really
Speaker 1: writing about it, I thought I got to start walking
Speaker 1: the walk, and it is so important for women in
Speaker 1: today's world because we tend to constantly feel guilty when
Speaker 1: we take time out for ourselves to in fact do that,
Speaker 1: because then we can serve the world that much.
Speaker 2: That are you know, if.
Speaker 1: Our cup is not full, our love is going to
Speaker 1: come from a place of exhaustion, of expectation, of obligation.
Speaker 1: So we want to fill our cup and we want
Speaker 1: our love to come from the cup.
Speaker 11: Runneth over the overflow, overflow. I love it, and so
Speaker 11: do you have.
Speaker 8: Is there a particular boundary that you've had to that
Speaker 8: you established in your own personal life to protect yourself
Speaker 8: and your mental health?
Speaker 2: Meditation.
Speaker 1: Meditation is really my self care and it's the way
Speaker 1: for me to plug in, if you will, to source
Speaker 1: to truth to love every day. I can't say I
Speaker 1: do it every single day, but it is really like
Speaker 1: brushing my teeth part of my routine. And most recently
Speaker 1: I've said to myself and I'm telling my girlfriends, intentionally
Speaker 1: do something once a month, whether that's you know, a
Speaker 1: somatic healing session, whether that's a little massage, or whether
Speaker 1: that you know, sacrifice the dinner out or the drinks
Speaker 1: and just have a little budget maybe one hundred bucks
Speaker 1: a month for self care or even you know, like
Speaker 1: I said, wake up and listen to a self care podcast.
Speaker 1: So the boundary is really it's the overall boundary is
Speaker 1: making sure that I'm not depleting and I'm not depleted.
Speaker 5: More of this inspiring and powerful conversation after the break.
Speaker 11: Now back to my legacy.
Speaker 6: You both have daughters, if I'm not mistaken, I've got
Speaker 6: two girls as well, who I just absolutely love in
Speaker 6: a door, and I wanted to ask you, having conversations
Speaker 6: around mental health with your kids is really hard, and
Speaker 6: opening up that space is sometimes also really hard. How
Speaker 6: do we do it? How do we embrace this conversation
Speaker 6: with young ones and with teenagers? What tips or suggestions
Speaker 6: do you guys have.
Speaker 1: I can start with the little because Joe has a
Speaker 1: little and a teenager, so he can speak to the.
Speaker 2: Teen tween phase, which I'm terrified for.
Speaker 1: But I think it's just not even sometimes this explicitly
Speaker 1: saying take care of your mental health.
Speaker 2: I think it's because they're.
Speaker 1: Little so acknowledging their emotions, which is something I mean
Speaker 1: I can speak for myself, especially having immigrant parents.
Speaker 2: Ever talked about emotions growing up, like it would be.
Speaker 1: Like four hour explosive fight, brother and I hiding in
Speaker 1: the room, and then next morning like when you want
Speaker 1: for breakfast, would you like some cereal old? You know,
Speaker 1: So mental health wasn't even talked about acknowledged. So one
Speaker 1: thing with my daughter is every day when she comes
Speaker 1: from home from school, we talk about it. We talk about,
Speaker 1: you know, was there any bullying incidents? Is what happened?
Speaker 1: How did you feel? How do you feel about what's
Speaker 1: going on? Things happening in the family. So holding the
Speaker 1: space and making it a very psychologically safe space for children,
Speaker 1: I think as they're little. And then of course there's
Speaker 1: practical applications like you know, mindfulness cards and yoga cards
Speaker 1: and having a space in your home where you know,
Speaker 1: the calming center, so to speak.
Speaker 2: But I think, you know, to.
Speaker 1: Start out as parents, it's really acknowledging their mental health.
Speaker 1: And you know, I read somewhere that kids problems maybe
Speaker 1: may seem small.
Speaker 2: To us, but that's their biggest problem for them.
Speaker 1: So if someone stole an a raser and that's their
Speaker 1: biggest problem, and we're saying it's just an eraser, they're
Speaker 1: gonna learn that we're not acknowledging what's going on.
Speaker 2: And so it's really important wherever they're arrived to hold space.
Speaker 5: Nina. I love that. I actually want to repeat that
Speaker 5: one more time because as a parent, that really resonated
Speaker 5: with me, that idea that even if it seems small,
Speaker 5: that's the world of the child that's so important, So
Speaker 5: acknowledging it from that perspective, I love that tangible advice.
Speaker 8: One of the things that I've learned as a parent
Speaker 8: is that to ask myself, does does she need a
Speaker 8: lecture or love? Actually I even do that with my husband.
Speaker 11: You know, because sometimes sometimes.
Speaker 8: They just want, you know that they just need to
Speaker 8: be loved, to see, to be seen, to be heard.
Speaker 8: There are sometimes that there they need. You know that
Speaker 8: there might be you know, there's time for instruction, and
Speaker 8: the wisdom is in knowing, you know, you know which
Speaker 8: applies when Nina, what is.
Speaker 7: One value you want to pass down to your daughter?
Speaker 2: That is such.
Speaker 1: A big question, and I would say for her to
Speaker 1: honor herself, for her to show up authentically every step
Speaker 1: of the way, and to be unapologetic about it, especially
Speaker 1: growing up as a woman in today's world, is to
Speaker 1: just own who she is, my mom who is no
Speaker 1: longer with us. She passed away ten years ago. This
Speaker 1: year taught me everything about life. I mean, talk about legacy.
Speaker 1: It's why I do what I do. I share this
Speaker 1: story all the time. As she worked for a big bank.
Speaker 1: She was a bank executive, and she had one more
Speaker 1: year to retire. She had twenty five years of the bank.
Speaker 1: She lived twenty four, one more year to retire, and
Speaker 1: most people would just work that year and say, Okay,
Speaker 1: now I'm retired, I'm going to live my life. But
Speaker 1: this one her course came up at the ashram and
Speaker 1: she said, I'm going to take a year sabbatical before
Speaker 1: her one last year to retirement. And she did that
Speaker 1: and we came back from the course, and in those
Speaker 1: months she started limping around, and before we knew it,
Speaker 1: she was diagnosed with als or lou Garrick's And I
Speaker 1: kept thinking, Thank goodness, she sees the day and did
Speaker 1: what she felt was important in that moment, because otherwise
Speaker 1: her last year of health would have been working for
Speaker 1: the bank. And in the years that she was sick,
Speaker 1: she had about two years from her diagnosis to her passing.
Speaker 1: People still talk about how she'd be in her wheelchair
Speaker 1: and they'd come over and she would say, how are
Speaker 1: you and what is going on with you? And she
Speaker 1: always just thought about others, literally until the day she died.
Speaker 1: And I shared this with you Mark when we were
Speaker 1: talking earlier, that she left me birthday cards and letters
Speaker 1: and letters for my daughter before I was even pregnant.
Speaker 1: She didn't even know I was pregnant, and she was
Speaker 1: leaving these letters with a best friend of mine, And
Speaker 1: so I have access to her wisdom, you know, beyond
Speaker 1: her her physical life, and you know, she just she
Speaker 1: made such incredible strides despite the fact that she was ill,
Speaker 1: and really lived to her fullest till her last day.
Speaker 8: Nina, I'm just struck because you know, all of our
Speaker 8: stories are unique, but it's always so amazing to me
Speaker 8: of how much all of so many of us have
Speaker 8: in common. For me, my mother passed away five years ago,
Speaker 8: and like your mother, she was just this light. And
Speaker 8: you know, I know from personal experience how complex that
Speaker 8: situation is. You know, mother and daughter as your parent
Speaker 8: is transitioning, you know, going from being a caretaker to
Speaker 8: just you know, preparing yourself, trying to prepare your your
Speaker 8: your children. I think for me, you know, we were
Speaker 8: I was in the room and my mom took her
Speaker 8: last breath, and there was something so powerful to be
Speaker 8: with this magnificent human that gave birth to me at
Speaker 8: the time that she was exiting this world. Is there
Speaker 8: anything in particular that you feel would be helpful to
Speaker 8: any of our listeners who right now it's going on
Speaker 8: that path of apparent transition.
Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing that. It's a beautiful story. And
Speaker 1: I too was there when she took her last breath,
Speaker 1: and it is quite a moment when the person who
Speaker 1: brought you into this world is leaving this world.
Speaker 2: It's really full circle. And I would say the biggest.
Speaker 1: Thing I've learned is that they're actually not gone there
Speaker 1: very much.
Speaker 2: And I'm sure you've experience this too, Andrea. They're here,
Speaker 2: they're just not in physical form.
Speaker 1: But I would say, you know their essence, their spirit
Speaker 1: becomes you.
Speaker 2: They're so much of your heart.
Speaker 1: And practically, I'd say there's some tough conversations to have
Speaker 1: as a parent is transitioning. And one thing my mom
Speaker 1: and I learned was, let's not make this last year
Speaker 1: just about those tough conversations about wheelchairs and medication and
Speaker 1: what you need to do, you know, every month, and
Speaker 1: the hospitals, and let's make sure we're still talking about life,
Speaker 1: and we're still talking about love and spirituality and the
Speaker 1: meaning of life.
Speaker 2: And as she transitioned.
Speaker 1: Now it's been ten years, I still till this day
Speaker 1: get little signs from her all the time, and it's
Speaker 1: like I'm talking to her. I'm like, yes, Mom, I
Speaker 1: can hear. Yeah, yeah, you know, and I'm validating. But
Speaker 1: you know, even though it feels I'm not denying the
Speaker 1: grave loss and the lack of physical presence and how
Speaker 1: much it hurts to not get that phone call or
Speaker 1: not feel that hug. But if you really feel them
Speaker 1: in your heart, you'll hear them.
Speaker 8: And I love too that you talked about how she
Speaker 8: left things even for her her grandchildren, you know, for
Speaker 8: your for your child, because I'm also reminded me think
Speaker 8: about signs. And you know, a lot of the first
Speaker 8: time that a lot of people were introduced to our
Speaker 8: daughter was when she spoke at the March for Our
Speaker 8: Lives rally, which she did without any prior warning, literally
Speaker 8: two hours before she was on the stage. But what's
Speaker 8: interesting is that a week before that and I wanted
Speaker 8: to make sure like she wasn't when we went, she
Speaker 8: wasn't preparing to speak, you know, but she got the
Speaker 8: phone call two hours before.
Speaker 11: But a week before.
Speaker 8: That, she had a dream about Martin's parents, and in
Speaker 8: that dream even her grandfather took her up some stairs
Speaker 8: and then he was talking to her. And so it
Speaker 8: almost felt like at this moment when his grandchild was
Speaker 8: being introduced to the world and she was, you know,
Speaker 8: going forward in her her destiny, he ate, in some
Speaker 8: manner was there. And not only that coach because he
Speaker 8: you know, in the dreams, he talked to her and
Speaker 8: kind of coached her. So they are still a part
Speaker 8: of who we are.
Speaker 6: And it takes such courage to come onto this global
Speaker 6: conversation and to share your story, which you've done with rawness,
Speaker 6: with love, with humility, with emotion, and with wisdom. Joe
Speaker 6: on behalf of is a fellow male. I want to
Speaker 6: say thank you for having the courage and having the
Speaker 6: courage to get up and stand up and talk about
Speaker 6: these traumas and encourage other men to talk about the traumas.
Speaker 5: Joe, I just want to echo marks words a gratitude
Speaker 5: this entire group. But what I think you added that
Speaker 5: was so powerful is we first have to have the
Speaker 5: courage to bring it up. And it's only when we
Speaker 5: have the courage to bring it up, to face it,
Speaker 5: to have those difficult moments like we had today with you.
Speaker 5: With that rawness, that vulnerability, that courage, can we truly
Speaker 5: let it go. And so to our listeners who have
Speaker 5: the trauma in their life that they're facing to have
Speaker 5: the courage to face to have the courage to work
Speaker 5: through it and have courage to let that shit go.
Speaker 10: Thank you so much for having us on and give
Speaker 10: the opportunity to continue to talk about our stories.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Thank you for having us on.
Speaker 2: We were pretty emotional when we got the call.
Speaker 6: And I also want to congratulate you. I've known Craig
Speaker 6: of course my entire life and of course his entire
Speaker 6: life as he's my brother, and in the forty plus
Speaker 6: years that Craig has been on this earth, this is
Speaker 6: the first time I've ever heard him use the shit
Speaker 6: word and swear, so congratulations. It's actually the first time
Speaker 6: since I was probably six or seven years old, I've
Speaker 6: actually ever used a word of preventity.
Speaker 5: Yes, my wife was teasing me She's like, you canna
Speaker 5: introduce this book. You can say this book, bleep it yourself.
Speaker 6: So that book that Let that Shit Go has taken
Speaker 6: us in terms of healing trauma, of course, and we
Speaker 6: love the book, but has also now brought us closer
Speaker 6: together as brothers because I've been trying to get him
Speaker 6: to squear his entire life. So congratulations.
Speaker 2: So I guess that's a win. I mean for your kids,
Speaker 2: maybe off, but Fred.
Speaker 11: Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 8: If you enjoy today's conversation, subscribe, share, and follow us
Speaker 8: at my Legacy Movement on social media. New episodes drop
Speaker 8: every Tuesday. At its core, this podcast honors doctor King's
Speaker 8: vision of the beloved community and the power of connection.
Speaker 8: A Legacy Plus Studio production distribute it by iHeartMedia creator
Speaker 8: and executive producer Suzanne Haywood co executive producer Lisa Lyle.
Speaker 11: Listen on the.
Speaker 8: iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Until next time,
Speaker 8: may you find inspiration to live your legacy.