1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: Welcome Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of I 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, you welcome to Stuff 3 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:16,080 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert lamp and 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 1: I'm Joe McCormick in today. I think we're bringing kind 5 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: of a sequel episode, but a sequel to multiple prequels. 6 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 1: What streams are coming together on this one? All right? Well, 7 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: for starters, were following up on a previous episode we 8 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: did about quetzal Quadal. This was an episode that dealt 9 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: with this, uh, this deity of pre Columbian Mesoamerican traditions, 10 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: this plumed serpent being and uh and and in that 11 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: episode we we discussed uh, you know, the myths surrounding it, 12 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:51,200 Speaker 1: the tradition surrounding it, as well as its ties into 13 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 1: paleontology with the with with the the prehistoric uh quetzo Katlas, 14 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: which is named for this deity, right, you know, just 15 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 1: recently in town at the Fernbank Science Museum, they had 16 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: an exhibit on terrasaurs. Of course, kettle Coatlas is you 17 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 1: know the greatest. Yeah, well, I think there may actually 18 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: have been there was some dispute about this while I 19 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: was there. There may be indications of a larger one um. 20 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: But yeah, the kettle coatlas has long at least been 21 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: understood to be the largest known of the pterosaurs. Ye 22 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 1: so big that there have at times been competing theories 23 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: as to whether it actually flew or if it just 24 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 1: shambled around like you know, this big walking winged creature 25 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: and just scavenge from the you know, the seaside. But 26 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 1: they had like full model and full cast of this creature. 27 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: They're up in the air where you could, you know, 28 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: compare your own puny, delicious body to this powerful predator 29 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: that would have sorry to get sidetracked. The thing about 30 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 1: those pterosaurs that's most terrifying is not not what they 31 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 1: look like when they're in flying posture, but how they walk. 32 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: You know, this is the thing that we, uh, we've 33 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: come to understand more over time, because there used to 34 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 1: be this debate about what exactly their their locomotion would 35 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:10,640 Speaker 1: look like when they weren't in flight. Would they just 36 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 1: crawl on vertical surfaces or something. But now we we 37 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 1: have a pretty good idea of how pterosaurs generally walked 38 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:19,959 Speaker 1: around on flat ground, and it just looks awful. It 39 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: just looks like, you know, this weird Jumblie membraneous robot. 40 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: It's it's amazing. You should look it up. So that 41 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: was a case where we had, you know, a later 42 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: fossil find and then they named the species after this 43 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: Mesoamerican serpent got But we didn't get into any actual 44 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: fossil connections beyond that. In other episodes, though we have 45 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:46,359 Speaker 1: discussed this idea of geo mythology. We've we've we've devoted 46 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 1: the whole episodes to generally looking at some sort of 47 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 1: mythological monster and saying, you know, asking the obvious question, 48 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:55,079 Speaker 1: a question that people have been asking for for quite 49 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: a while. Where were these ideas of be a dragons 50 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: or or cyclops is whatever? But were they were they? 51 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 1: Were they inspired by fossils that were discovered by ancient people? Yeah? 52 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 1: It was it pure imagination or was it based on 53 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: something they had seen? And if it was based on 54 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:15,079 Speaker 1: something they'd seen, was it, you know, an exaggerated account 55 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 1: of a live animal, or maybe a misinterpretation of bones 56 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:22,919 Speaker 1: or or fossils that had been made from the bones 57 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 1: of long dead creatures. And it's not hard at all 58 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:30,079 Speaker 1: to see how, say a dragon might be inspired by 59 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 1: the skull of a dinosaur, you know, especially like maybe 60 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: a large therapod dinosaur. Imagine coming across that when you 61 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: didn't know there was such a thing as dinosaurs. Uh. 62 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: And and there are many ways that the geological features 63 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: of fossils can make them seem especially mystical and and 64 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: like they're some kind of monster with supernatural properties. A 65 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 1: great example of this is given that this was in 66 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 1: our last discussion where we talked about the work of 67 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: Adrian Mayor, who's going to come up again in today's 68 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: episode and will brief you a bit more on who 69 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: she is in a in a moment, But we talked 70 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: about her book The First Fossil Hunters, Paleontology and Greek 71 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: and Roman Times, and one of the examples she talks 72 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 1: about in that book that I remember standing out of 73 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: my head was this interesting example that in some regions 74 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 1: calcite and selenite crystals form inside fossilized bones, which could 75 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 1: have been connected to tales of gim stones within dragons heads. 76 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 1: So let's talk about Adrian Mayor so uh born in 77 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: ninety six, still active in the world today, Stanford University 78 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: historian of ancient science and a classical folkloreist who specializes 79 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 1: in geo mythology, and she's written several books of interest, 80 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: including a two thousand eighteen book on Gods and Robots 81 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 1: in Mythology all about Talos. Not all about Talos, but 82 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: Taalo's features. Yeah. But you also probably remember as discussing 83 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: her two thousand book The First Fossil Hunters Paleontology in 84 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:59,160 Speaker 1: Greek and Roman Times, which deals with these very questions, 85 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: um in you know, in the ancient Greeks and depicting 86 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 1: and imagining these various creatures. Were they commenting on fossil finds? Yeah, 87 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:09,159 Speaker 1: And in that episode we talked about a bunch of 88 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 1: examples put forth by Mayor where discovery of fossils by 89 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 1: ancient people's could have given rise to legends of mythical beasts. 90 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 1: We just talked about the dragon example, but a few others, 91 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:22,279 Speaker 1: like the idea that legends of the fearsome griffin, you know, 92 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 1: the jealous gold hoarding creature with a lion's body, and 93 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:28,840 Speaker 1: the you know, the wings that creature of the Gobi 94 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 1: Desert could have been inspired by the discovery of Protoceratops fossils. 95 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 1: That we also discussed arguments against this connection, um and 96 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 1: another one that was very popular was the idea that 97 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 1: tales of the cyclops could have been inspired by elephant skulls, 98 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: which of course have this large single hollow or socket 99 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: in the center that could easily be mistaken for a 100 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,719 Speaker 1: giant single eye socket in the middle of the face, 101 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: though it actually is the nasal cavity that connects to 102 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: the trunk. But she also turned her attention to the 103 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:01,119 Speaker 1: world of the plume serpent in her two thousand five 104 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 1: book Fossil Legends of the First Americans. So and in 105 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 1: this she points out that pre Columbian Aztec codices and 106 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:14,600 Speaker 1: ink A traditions described the remains or seem in her estimation, 107 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 1: to to describe the remains of mammoths and other creatures 108 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: from the past, including giant birds. And of course this 109 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,599 Speaker 1: is where we come back to quets A Quaddal, because 110 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:29,719 Speaker 1: Zaddal again is generally depicted as this this great serpent 111 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 1: with feathers, this reptilian being that is also bird like. 112 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 1: And it's really kind of surprising looking back on it, 113 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: that we didn't actually explore this avenue because it makes 114 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: so much sense, right, Like you're you're talking about this, 115 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: this this amorphous idea and all, generally, all ideas and 116 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 1: mythology over the landscape of time are a morphous They 117 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:53,919 Speaker 1: shift this way and that. But essentially this sounds like 118 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: a good lineup rather well with terra saar remains or 119 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:01,480 Speaker 1: even the remains of of non flying um dinosaurs. You know, 120 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 1: any kind of a sauropod, you could you could you 121 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 1: could latch onto any of these, any evidence of some 122 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: sort of great creature, and low and behold here is 123 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 1: the evidence of quetzal codal. Yes, though the link between 124 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: fossils and the possible inspiration of the plume serpent being 125 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: light cut steal Coadal is not the only uh same 126 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 1: meso American or South American example where we we have 127 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: a pretty good idea that bones of large creatures could 128 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: have inspired belief in uh supernatural beings. A big example 129 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: that comes in with with meso American and South American 130 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: mythology is the belief in giants. Yes, and there's a 131 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: there's a there's an interesting history there and one that 132 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: that mayor spends a lot of time with. So she 133 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: points out that after Cortez arrived in the New World, 134 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: the tax Calteca people aligned with him against their enemies 135 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 1: the Aztecs, and they they brought the the conisdor gigantic bones, 136 00:07:57,120 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 1: and they told him the story of how their ancestors 137 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: had had found these lands filled with these evil giants, 138 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: and that they subsequently vanquished most of them, and the 139 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: survivors were eventually just too few to continue and died out. 140 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: And look, here are the bones that are proof of 141 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: this story. Yeah, I actually wanted to read from a 142 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 1: firsthand account of what happened at this event. This is 143 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: a firsthand account by Bernald Diaz de Castillo, one of 144 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: the Spanish conquistadors who was working under Cortez. Now, keep 145 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:32,679 Speaker 1: in mind, anything we read here is just Castillo's version 146 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: of the story, written many years after the fact, and 147 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,319 Speaker 1: it's very possible he's not remembering everything accurately or not 148 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: understanding and reporting correctly. But this, this firsthand account, is 149 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: what we have here. So he's speaking to some of 150 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: the tlexical Teka people and uh and he's asking them, 151 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: uh quote, how it was that they came to inhabit 152 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:53,839 Speaker 1: that land, and from what direction had they come and 153 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:56,439 Speaker 1: how was it that they differed so much from And 154 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 1: we're so hostile to the Mexicans as he's referring to 155 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:02,439 Speaker 1: the Aztecs Uh, seeing that their countries were so close 156 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: to one another. Quote they said that their ancestors had 157 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 1: told them that in times past there had lived among 158 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: them men and women of giant size, with huge bones, 159 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: and because they were very bad people of evil manners, 160 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: that they had fought with them and killed them, and 161 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:21,599 Speaker 1: those of them who had remained died off. So that 162 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 1: we could see how huge and tall these people had been, 163 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 1: they brought us a leg bone of one of them, 164 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:30,679 Speaker 1: which was very thick, and the height of a man 165 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: of ordinary stature. And that was the bone from the 166 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: hip to the knee. I measured myself against it, and 167 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: it was as tall as I am. Although I am 168 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 1: a fair size. I wonder if he's getting a little 169 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 1: defensive there. I'm not that short. They brought other bones, 170 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:50,079 Speaker 1: or they brought other pieces of bones like the first, 171 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 1: but they were already eaten away and destroyed by the soil. 172 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 1: We were all amazed at seeing those bones, and felt 173 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: sure that there must have been giants in this country. 174 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 1: And our captain Cortez said to us that it would 175 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,319 Speaker 1: be well to send that great bone to Castile, so 176 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 1: that his Majesty might see it, so we sent it 177 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:09,599 Speaker 1: with the first of our agents who went there. So 178 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 1: I'd love to know what happened with that bone. But 179 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: apparently that's a that's a sad mystery that doesn't turn 180 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 1: out well. Yeah. Mayor writes that she she tried to 181 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: to track it down and uh and and couldn't couldn't 182 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: quite find it. Um. But she points out that this 183 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: this myth, and this was account of the myth. You know, 184 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: it does reveal, you know, an understanding of several things, 185 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: reveals an understanding of extinction. For example, that is sufficiently 186 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 1: reduced population is doomed. It's just not going to bounce back, 187 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 1: so that they didn't have to kill all of the giants. 188 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 1: If they just reduced the population off, the giants died 189 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:46,679 Speaker 1: out naturally. Yeah and um and she also points out 190 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: yeah that those bones presented by the flex Calteco were 191 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: sent back to Spain apparently, though there seems no surviving 192 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 1: record of them after that. However, based on later vossils 193 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,440 Speaker 1: sent back to Spain and those displayed in Cortes Palace 194 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: uh there in um in Mexico, we can judge that 195 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: these were probably mammoth bones. Like it seems that it's 196 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: it's not even a you know, it's a very safe guess. 197 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 1: I'm interested by this phenomenon of people seeing bones of 198 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 1: large extinct megafauna and not just not knowing what they were, 199 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: but concluding that there's some form of human you know. 200 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: And obviously this is not just the conclusion reached by 201 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 1: the taxical Teka people. This is like a widespread I mean, 202 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 1: the Spanish seemed to think the same thing. Yeah, I mean, 203 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 1: part of it is, you know, by virtue of our 204 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: our modern understanding of fossils and the ascent of man 205 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: and knowing exactly what sort of humanoid and primate creatures 206 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:46,439 Speaker 1: lived that we know lived in in in prehistoric times. 207 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: But and then on the other side, it's like all 208 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 1: we all have stories of giants. The Europeans brought with them, 209 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: The Spanish brought with them knowledge of stories of giants. Know, 210 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: the Spanish like they totally believed in giants. Yeah, it's 211 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 1: kind of crazy that all the things that are not 212 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,079 Speaker 1: lining up with Cortez here, like like this is a 213 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 1: doomed scenario and we should really drive remind everyone that 214 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 1: Cortez is a destroyer here in this in this encounter. 215 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:15,959 Speaker 1: But this is like one thing that they instantly both 216 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 1: have in common is the belief in giants. So Mayor 217 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: writes that that father Jose de Acosta, who lived hundred, 218 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:29,719 Speaker 1: traveled to Mexico and recorded native oral histories, and it 219 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: was when he spoke to the plex Carteca they described 220 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 1: the giants of old as beings that dwelt in caves 221 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 1: and used great clubs and wooden swords. They quote pulled 222 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: down trees as if they had been stalks of lettuces. Uh. 223 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 1: And Mayor argues that this brings to mind the behavior 224 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: of elephants, and that the the giants again might be 225 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 1: essentially ancestral memories of the Colombian mammoths that definitely lived 226 00:12:57,280 --> 00:12:59,319 Speaker 1: in the area that we definitely have the fossil evidence 227 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: of that see evidence of in the fossils displayed in 228 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 1: Cortez Palace. That it's kind of through the telephone game 229 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:10,439 Speaker 1: of oral tradition and via the remaining fossil evidence of 230 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 1: their bones. Like this is the the giants and the 231 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 1: giant mythology that remains right, so we know that these 232 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 1: giant extinct mammals did stretch in the range as far south. 233 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:23,839 Speaker 1: Is like Central America, right, yeah, as far south is 234 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: a Costa Rica. I think I was reading and uh 235 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 1: and up into the northern United States. So then again 236 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 1: I do think, I mean, I wonder about that. I mean, 237 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:35,599 Speaker 1: that is a long time for a legend like that 238 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: to persist, even in altered form. The Colombian mammoth, which 239 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: was uh, the species that would have spread that far 240 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: south right there. The Willie mammoth was a further north species. 241 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 1: So the Colombian mammoth, this huge being, when extinct probably 242 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 1: like like ten to eleven thousand years ago. We think, 243 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:55,959 Speaker 1: certainly not impossible for you know, elements of myth to 244 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:58,679 Speaker 1: exist across that time span. But I wouldn't let too 245 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 1: much hinge on that, in friends, because that's a long time. 246 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 1: A lot can happen, certainly from the human standpoint, and 247 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 1: that did that amount of time. Yeah. It's also worth 248 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:10,959 Speaker 1: pointing out that it wasn't just the tax Carteca. The 249 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 1: Inca also had tales of ancestral victories over giants. In 250 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: this case, though the giants were destroyed by fire from heaven. 251 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, So these myths were recorded in One of 252 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 1: the places they were recorded was in a source in 253 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 1: the sixteenth century. One of one of these was by 254 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: Sisa de Leone in the Chronicle of Peru, published in 255 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 1: fifteen fifty three. So the people telling this story where 256 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 1: people living in I think it was Peru at the time, 257 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 1: modern Ecuador, who told stories about how their ancestors in 258 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 1: ancient times had had been invaded by these people from 259 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 1: the sea who were evil and destructive giants who landed 260 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: at a point called Point Santa Elena in what's now Ecuador. 261 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: And I want to read from Sieza de Leone's record 262 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 1: of the stories that were told to him by the 263 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 1: native people's. He says, quote, they arrived on the coast 264 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: in boats made of reeds as big as large ships, 265 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: a party of men of such size that from the 266 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 1: knee downwards their height was as great as the entire 267 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: height of an ordinary man, though he might be of 268 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 1: good stature. So this yet again, it's like part of 269 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: the leg is as tall as a guy, even though 270 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: he's pretty tall. Right, Like they're making it clear, um, 271 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: their limbs were all in proportion to the deformed size 272 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 1: of their bodies, and it was a monstrous thing to 273 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: see their heads with hair reaching to the shoulders. Their 274 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: eyes were as large as small plates. They had no beards, 275 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: and were dressed in the skins of animals on others 276 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 1: only in the dress which nature gave them. And they 277 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 1: had no women with them. And then so SiZ it 278 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: Leone goes on to tell more about the story of 279 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: the conflict between the people and these giants. Size It 280 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 1: Leone does not strike me as a great narrator. He 281 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: kind of disparages the people who were telling him the story. 282 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 1: He refers to their vulgarity and says that they're prone 283 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: to exaggeration. So I think he's he's got a patronizing attitude, 284 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 1: it seems like here. But he also embellishes their account 285 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: by adding Christian theological material to it. So later on 286 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: he says, uh uh quote, all the natives declare that God, 287 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: our Lord, brought upon them a punishment in proportion to 288 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: the enormity of their offense. And he's talking about the giants. Here, 289 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: a fearful and terrible fire came down from heaven with 290 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 1: a great noise, out of the midst of which there 291 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: issued a shining angel with a glittering sword, with which 292 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 1: at one blow they were all killed, and the fire 293 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: consumed them. There only remained a few bones and skulls 294 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: which God allowed to remain without being consumed by the 295 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: fire as a memorial of this punishment. So that's interesting. 296 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 1: There's there's this idea that some bones are left for 297 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 1: us to see, and so what about these bones? Well, 298 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 1: Adrian Mayer writes about this in her account. She says 299 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 1: that in three there was a deputy governor of Trujillo 300 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:07,680 Speaker 1: named Juan day Almost who decided to investigate these stories 301 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: about the extinct giants and their bones by conducting a 302 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 1: paleontological excavation. So that's pretty interesting, right, We've got the 303 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 1: sixteenth century here, and they're trying to excavate the bones 304 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,640 Speaker 1: of extinct beings. Yeah, essentially engaging in in in paleontology, 305 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 1: which is one of Mayor's frequent points, is that is 306 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 1: that when when you're engaging with these fossils and you're 307 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: trying to figure out what they were and how to 308 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: fit into history, even you know, you're even though you're 309 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 1: dealing with, say, you know, a version of history that 310 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 1: is influenced by mythology, uh and perhaps even the mythology 311 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:43,440 Speaker 1: of some you know, local conquerors who have just arrived. 312 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 1: Then you're that you're still engaged in the exercise of 313 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 1: trying to understand fossils. Yeah, and that that's what one 314 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:54,919 Speaker 1: day Almost was apparently doing. So. Mayor writes that Almost 315 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 1: and his workers they went and they dug up pits 316 00:17:57,560 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 1: in this valley that they've been directed to by the 317 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: name of People's where the giants had been reportedly destroyed 318 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 1: or put down by this angel from heaven or where 319 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 1: they've been consumed by the fire put down by this 320 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,719 Speaker 1: being from the sky. And then uh so that they 321 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:16,119 Speaker 1: apparently found some things. They found skulls that seemed to 322 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: look sort of human. And remember again the comparison between 323 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: like the idea of the cyclops and the giant elephant skulls. Yeah, 324 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 1: like it is unlike so many um, you know, large 325 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 1: herbivore skulls. The elephant skull does not look you know, 326 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 1: it's not a long skull. It's not like the skull 327 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 1: of a deer or even like a hippo or something. 328 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: It does seem to have like the vertical alignment of 329 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 1: a of a primate skull. Though then again, these these 330 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 1: bones were found to not be exactly human in proportion. 331 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: Uh and this was explained away by the fact that, well, 332 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 1: in the story, these giants, you know, they've got all 333 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 1: these deformities. You know, that's it's almost like an indication 334 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 1: of their monstrous nous, which is sort of a self 335 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 1: fulfilling prophecy. Right, we're looking for human shaped things that 336 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:04,159 Speaker 1: aren't correctly human shaped because they were monsters. Therefore, when 337 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 1: the things aren't correctly human shaped, almost can can conclude, yeah, okay, 338 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:11,360 Speaker 1: we found the bones of giants here, and and apparently 339 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 1: they did so that you know, they dug up these bones. 340 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:16,879 Speaker 1: They said, yep, it looks like there were giants, and 341 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 1: Mayor points out points to other sources as well on this, 342 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 1: such as leading Mexican archaeologist Dr. Leonardo Lopez Lujan, who 343 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:27,920 Speaker 1: backs up the notion that Mesoamerican myths of giants and 344 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:31,360 Speaker 1: ogres originated in at least the discovery of fossil remains 345 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: without getting into the sort of oral history the thing. 346 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: But but I I should probably add, like, there's there's 347 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: the there's the oral history of the creatures, but then 348 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: there's just the oral history of finding the fossils. And 349 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 1: I think that's that's probably more of what we're talking 350 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: about here. Uh, you know, somebody found these bones once 351 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:51,879 Speaker 1: and maybe they kept the bones, maybe they didn't, But 352 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,440 Speaker 1: there's the story of the encounter and then the subsequent 353 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: interpretation of what the bones mean. Okay, I think maybe 354 00:19:57,840 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 1: we should take a quick break. We'll be right back 355 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:05,440 Speaker 1: with more than all right, we're back, so you know, 356 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 1: I want to drive home that you know, we're talking 357 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 1: about Quetzal Coodal and some of these other traditions. You know, 358 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:15,679 Speaker 1: there's there's a lot we don't know about these cultures. Again, 359 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:19,640 Speaker 1: Cortez and those who came after him, that they were 360 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:24,119 Speaker 1: a destroying force, they were conquerors. They brought with them, uh, 361 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:28,200 Speaker 1: death and disease and uh and and and in often 362 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 1: cases like a willingness, like a an intent to destroy 363 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 1: the culture of the people. Uh that they subjugated and 364 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:40,439 Speaker 1: did that in many cases through literally destroying written records. Right, 365 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 1: so you know they're luckily something survived, but so much 366 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 1: was destroyed. We're talking about in the meso American world 367 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,680 Speaker 1: initially like like seven years ago. And uh and yet 368 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 1: as is, as is often pointed out in case was 369 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: pointed out by a University of New Mexico's professor David M. Johnson, 370 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 1: that we know more about Athens Greece of two thousand 371 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 1: years ago, or we know more about Hibraic traditions of 372 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:07,360 Speaker 1: three thousand years ago than we know about meso America 373 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 1: seven hundred years ago, because mainly of the destruction of 374 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 1: the conqui statore, the destruction that they wrought on the cultures, 375 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 1: the destruction of codices that the Aztecs and the Maya kept, uh. 376 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 1: And on top of this, the hieroglyphic style books of 377 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,200 Speaker 1: the Aztecs. Uh. You know that there were were there 378 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 1: to aid in the memorization of oral literature. So you 379 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 1: know that with you know, you're so you're destroying it 380 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 1: on both ends. If you're destroying the culture that that 381 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:36,160 Speaker 1: that retains the the oral tradition, but then you're also 382 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 1: destroying the books that enabled it to begin with. Um. 383 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 1: You know. So it's it's often a taxing exercise to 384 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: try and reassemble uh. You know what some of these 385 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 1: stories and traditions actually were. But quetzal codeal um as 386 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:54,479 Speaker 1: we discussed in our previous episode, Uh, they're they're basically 387 00:21:54,600 --> 00:22:00,080 Speaker 1: like two major different um uh like Saga's a of 388 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:02,959 Speaker 1: of it or him they're sort of the more primal 389 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 1: myths and then the more humanoid myths. Yeah, that was 390 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 1: the distinction. I remember sort of like the celestial Quetzalcodle, 391 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: like the creator being, and then there's like the human 392 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:15,200 Speaker 1: version or the human embodiment, right, and and ultimately I 393 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,679 Speaker 1: think that's something that that that ended up lining up 394 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:19,680 Speaker 1: a lot with sort of Christian traditions, the idea of 395 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 1: there being sort of a a part one that's very 396 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 1: cosmic and and uh and and a little harder to grasp, 397 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,119 Speaker 1: and then a second part that's a little more human 398 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,399 Speaker 1: and it's telling. But in both of these are like 399 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:33,680 Speaker 1: a hero legend. Yeah, exactly, in both of these cases, though, 400 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 1: it's really important to drive home the quetzal Quotal was 401 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 1: was not like a like a bloodthirsty god. I think 402 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 1: sometimes there is this tendency to someone says Aztec God something, 403 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 1: then you're going to instantly think about blood sacrifices or 404 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: something like because of cue the Wing Serpent the movie, right, 405 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:53,879 Speaker 1: you're going to think of that. But but quetzal Quotal was, 406 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 1: by all the accounts we were looking at, you know, 407 00:22:56,080 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: this was a benign, benevolent, even um entity. This was 408 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 1: this was a divine being that represented peace and not 409 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 1: bloody warfare or anything of the sort. So I just 410 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 1: want to drive that home before we we continue here. 411 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: And you're probably wondering again, Okay, you're talking about giants, 412 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 1: you're talking about elephants, But what about quetzal Kodal. What 413 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 1: does Mayor right about the winged serpent? And she she, 414 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: she does mention him. She she writes that in the 415 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:32,159 Speaker 1: Florentine Codex, which is the sixteenth century ethnographic research study 416 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: in Mesoamerica conducted by a Spanish friar Um, that the 417 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 1: the human quetzal Kodal was said to stop to rest 418 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: with his followers on a journey at a place that 419 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: was considered holy because quote the marks which quetzal Koda 420 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: left upon the stone with his hands when he rested there, 421 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,399 Speaker 1: When he sat down and he supported himself on the 422 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 1: rock by his hands, they sank deeply, as if in mud. 423 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,640 Speaker 1: Did the palms of his hands seek down. Likewise, his buttocks, 424 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 1: as they touched the rock sank deeply, and the holy 425 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,920 Speaker 1: buttock marks, yeah, of of of the winged serpent. And 426 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 1: the place was known as timok Palco the impression of 427 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:15,959 Speaker 1: the hands. So we we ultimately have have no current 428 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,680 Speaker 1: knowledge or evidence of this place, no further descriptions or 429 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: else illustrations even in this uh this codex. But Mayer 430 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: suspects they might have been quote a genuine track site, 431 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 1: track site being where we have the fossilized tracks of 432 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: of of of creatures, a genuine track site of some 433 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 1: extinct creature, or else there were carvings that resembled fossilized prints, 434 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,639 Speaker 1: perhaps made to illustrate or commemorate an episode in the 435 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,880 Speaker 1: Quetzalcodal epic. And I think the implication is in that case, 436 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 1: you know, it could be something if it was artificial, 437 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:49,679 Speaker 1: it was man made, it could have been inspired by 438 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 1: actual fossilized tracks that have been discovered, or she doesn't 439 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:55,400 Speaker 1: mention this, but I mean, I can imagine it could 440 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 1: be a combination of the two, like the actual fossils 441 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 1: that were then embellish by by humans that are interpreting 442 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,640 Speaker 1: it as being part of a divine story. She also 443 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: points out that in terms of extinction, the Aztecs believed 444 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 1: that there were four previous ages that were destroyed by cataclysm, 445 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,640 Speaker 1: and the survivors of these ages, monsters and giants were 446 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:22,679 Speaker 1: sometimes encountered uh, you know in subsequent ages, and um 447 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:25,920 Speaker 1: quetzal Kota is said to have been created, said to 448 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,639 Speaker 1: have created the bones of fifth age humans by mixing 449 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 1: blood with the ground bones of our fourth age ancestors. 450 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: So you know, there's already an emphasis on bones here, 451 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 1: and Mayor thinks it's suggestive of bone grinding medicinal practices 452 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 1: seen elsewhere among Native American people's, but she she also 453 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: stresses as she found nothing in the Spanish accounts of 454 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: Mesoamerican people's regarding uh, you know, bone grinding practices. However, 455 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: she does point to a twentieth century practice in the 456 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 1: village of Sharkas, on the northern border of the Old 457 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:03,680 Speaker 1: Aztec Empire, famed for its minds. The villagers collected a 458 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 1: large fossil bones known as the uh and Uh. I 459 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 1: apologize for my Spanish here kuisos diaspanto the bones of fear. Uh. 460 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: These would have been the bones of the old giant 461 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,959 Speaker 1: and the daly old giants Uh that that are now 462 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 1: in the earth. And the ground powder was used in 463 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:25,359 Speaker 1: a potion to calm anxiety and fear. And she points 464 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 1: out that this actually lines up with the use of 465 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: ground dragon bones in uh in Chinese traditional medicine and 466 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 1: in the treatment of fossils by European apothecaries. Um, who 467 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,680 Speaker 1: you know who would? Of course, I think we've discussed 468 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: on stuff to bow your mind before about uh, the 469 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 1: use of of of mummified remains by apothecaries, but also 470 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 1: fossil bones as well. Yeah, mummy paste. Wait a minute, 471 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,159 Speaker 1: in in the Chinese traditional medicine, what what are the 472 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:58,959 Speaker 1: ground dragon bones? What bones end up becoming supposedly dragon bones? Oh, 473 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,399 Speaker 1: I'm not sure on that at actually, but it does 474 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: bring to mind that we were perhaps talking about fossils here. Yeah, 475 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:06,119 Speaker 1: that's the they. We'll have to do a part three 476 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 1: where we talk about the use of fossils in Chinese 477 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 1: traditional medicine and Chinese folklore. I'm I'm off hand, I can't. 478 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 1: I don't know for sure if Mayor has has written 479 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 1: about Chinese traditions um exclusively in any book, or perhaps 480 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,119 Speaker 1: that's an upcoming book. All right, well, let's take one 481 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: more break and we come back. We will continue to 482 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:34,160 Speaker 1: discuss um geo mythology and uh quetzal quaddalan. Alright, we're back. 483 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: So last time we talked about ketzl quaddle we obviously 484 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 1: made the connection to terrasaur species because of the giant 485 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: terrasaur ketzel Katlas, which gets its name from this magnificent 486 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 1: meso American god Um. So I wonder, could there actually 487 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:55,399 Speaker 1: be any connection between terrasaur fossils and UH and the 488 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,640 Speaker 1: belief in a giant plumed serpent god. On one hand, 489 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 1: I would tend to assume I don't know about that, 490 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:06,119 Speaker 1: because pterosaurs are not really They're not really serpentine, are they. 491 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,920 Speaker 1: That's true. And then, of course another and this is 492 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 1: a key thing that we're always arguing, is that fossils 493 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 1: are not necessary to dream up these creatures like of course, 494 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 1: as we discussed in the questa Cotal episode previously, like 495 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 1: the god embodies the snake and the bird. I mean, 496 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 1: it's already embodying natural creatures that inspire various ideas about 497 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 1: the world, the cosmos, and our role in it, in 498 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,639 Speaker 1: our relationship with nature. It's already this hybrid being and 499 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: therefore a like this this special kind of of metaphor 500 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 1: for human understanding. Yeah, and that's something to keep in 501 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 1: mind with all of these cases where you know, geomethology 502 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: is full of sort of interesting inferential hypotheses. It's hard. 503 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 1: It's in most cases, it's gonna be really hard to 504 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: make a solid case that, yes, a you know, a 505 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: mythical beast or a legend or something from an ancient 506 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 1: religion is definitely inspired by geological facts geo facts like fossils. 507 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: But you can often kind of infer there's a good 508 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: chance that something like that could have happened. You just 509 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 1: it's hard to know for sure. Luckily Mayor does go 510 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 1: into this, though she does. She does explore the the 511 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 1: idea that you know that the question could actual winged 512 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 1: fossil remains have influenced meso American traditions. Uh, and you know, 513 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: of course there would there would be no room for 514 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 1: oral traditions of encountering these creatures here. They would have 515 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 1: been long extinct before uh, and the first humans were 516 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 1: around in this area. But uh, of course that hasn't 517 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 1: stopped some cryptozoologists, she points out to claiming, uh, you 518 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 1: know otherwise, However, she does argue, oh no, that's well, No, 519 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: I was just thinking that the crypto when crypto zoologists 520 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 1: get involved, I mean, I don't want to not all 521 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 1: quote crypto zoologists or of the same caliber, right, But 522 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 1: there's crypto and this is something we I feel like 523 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 1: we should explore. There are there are certain scientific professionals. 524 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 1: They're certain scientists who have given a lot of thought 525 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 1: to stuff like you know, the jetty and and have 526 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 1: done so in a reasonable fashion, and and and put 527 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 1: the scientific exploration first. There are, of course, more less 528 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 1: scientifically based, in more you know, overly enthusiastic um uh 529 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 1: individuals out there who bear the cryptozoologist title. Well, there 530 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: are always going to be people who are excited about 531 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 1: stories of you know, any kind of interesting uh unusual 532 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: being of any kind because it's somehow feeds into their 533 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 1: fantastical worldview. I mean, I remember reading stories about how 534 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 1: these native traditions of extinct races of giants in ancient 535 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:52,520 Speaker 1: meso America and in South America fed a lot of 536 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 1: kind of like theological speculation among European Christians. You know, 537 00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 1: they'd read these stories and think, ah, this means something 538 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:03,720 Speaker 1: about the Nephi. Yeah. Yeah, And you can imagine that 539 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 1: too if you were like the spear point of a 540 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 1: bloody you know, religious conquest of a new world, and 541 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 1: then you were you were you were learning about their 542 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 1: traditions of giants and their their belief in it. It 543 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 1: almost is uh. It reminds me of, you know, some 544 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 1: of the ideas we've explored with witchcraft persecution, the idea 545 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 1: that that on some level part of the um the 546 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: reason for it was because if you by by sort 547 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 1: of drawing these, uh, these stories out of the victims 548 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 1: of witch persecution, you were creating proof for a supernatural 549 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 1: realm that that backed up your own, uh, failing religious ideas. 550 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: But that's kind of a whole discussion onto itself. But 551 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 1: any right, mayor does you know she doesn't explore cryptozoological 552 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,959 Speaker 1: ideas in this, but she does argue that the thunderbird 553 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: beliefs of North American native people's were likely inspired by 554 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 1: such fossils and uh. And she asked paleontologist James Clark, 555 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:09,480 Speaker 1: who had worked with the Northeastern Mexican terrasaur fossils before, if, if, 556 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 1: if these remains would have been likely to elect strong 557 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 1: responses from ancient people's and he thought probably not. And 558 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 1: there his reasoning was that, Okay, it's one thing to 559 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 1: see a fully a simple terrasaur act your local science 560 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 1: museum or in a you know, in a book, and 561 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 1: certainly if it's illustrated as a living creature. But when 562 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 1: you look at the the actual fossil remains, and again 563 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 1: this is someone who had worked with the actual terrasaur 564 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 1: fossil remains from northeastern Mexico, he says, you you end 565 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 1: up looking at this just jumble of bones. That's a 566 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: really good point. When you see the impressions of terrasaur 567 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 1: fossils in uh, in situ as they're found, they're often 568 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 1: you know, in say, uh the former flatbed of a 569 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 1: body of water, and the indentations are just a tangled mess. 570 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:00,040 Speaker 1: And I think a lot of this has to do 571 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 1: with in fact, often bird bones are the same way 572 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 1: when they get fossilized. I think it has to do 573 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,960 Speaker 1: with sort of lightweight structure of the bones, uh, the 574 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 1: way they just kind of get all collapsed together that 575 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 1: they don't seem to be as often um articulated and 576 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 1: in full body posture as you might get with a 577 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,479 Speaker 1: larger animal with more solid bones. Yeah, I mean we can, 578 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 1: we can. We're easily spoiled sometimes by the really nice 579 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 1: fossil remains that we see with certain certain finds and 580 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 1: certain species where we see just a like a like 581 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 1: a complete or near complete vision of what the creature 582 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,280 Speaker 1: looked like and how the bones were arranged. But that 583 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 1: is that is not all fossils, uh, the the you know, 584 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 1: the the whole discipline of paleontology entails a lot of 585 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 1: reassembly of of of of guesswork and and generally and 586 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 1: often you know times as some of these even terra stars, 587 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 1: we're dealing with creatures where we we have, you know, 588 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 1: far short of a complete fossil, sometimes even just a 589 00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 1: single bone, and you're just having to base everything off 590 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 1: off of that extrapolate based on other fossil remains. Yeah, 591 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 1: and I think it's true of terrasaurs especially, like even 592 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 1: more so than dinosaurs generally, that you have that that 593 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 1: fossils as they're found are very often unimpressive until you 594 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 1: start extrapolating what this living creature would have looked like. However, 595 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 1: Mayor writes that she thinks the giant terrasaur remains in 596 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 1: southern Mexico might have been harder to miss and might 597 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,480 Speaker 1: have led to some of these tales of giant winged creatures. 598 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 1: And this would have included as bland, the Aztec homeland. Now, 599 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:35,960 Speaker 1: what about the so we're not saying though, that we 600 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 1: think um uh terosaurs would have inspired the belief in 601 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:42,760 Speaker 1: ketzel coadle just because these are these are very differently 602 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,319 Speaker 1: formed creatures, right, we must be talking about some kind 603 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:47,960 Speaker 1: of other being. Well, yeah, and luckily there are there 604 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:52,440 Speaker 1: are other flying creatures in Mesoamerican traditions. Uh. For instance, 605 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:56,879 Speaker 1: the the Aquai people of Sonara believed in a great 606 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 1: bird that lived on Skeleton mountain or or oh tom 607 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 1: Quai and then and the belief was that it preyed 608 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,719 Speaker 1: on humans and uh. And then when a child hero 609 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 1: killed it, its feathers turned into all the birds that 610 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 1: lived today. But the likely suspect in these myths, mayor says, 611 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,759 Speaker 1: are reports of living California condors and the fossils of 612 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,880 Speaker 1: older condor species, so you know, namely the giant raptors 613 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 1: of the ice age. So these would have been more 614 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,160 Speaker 1: likely if inspired by the bones of a creature, or 615 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 1: a living creature would have been a real bird of 616 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 1: prey rather than pterosaur fossil and Ulso that makes more sense, 617 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 1: like just that you know you're dealing with something again, 618 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,800 Speaker 1: where there is there is the the actual potential for 619 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 1: an oral tradition to carry some word about it. And 620 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,680 Speaker 1: then you also have on top of the fossilized condors, 621 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 1: you have actual condor still in the world today that 622 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:51,239 Speaker 1: can be glimpsed and would have been glimpsed by some 623 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,640 Speaker 1: of these people were discussing here. So if we're talking 624 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:58,279 Speaker 1: about direct fossil inspirations that could have possibly had something 625 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,400 Speaker 1: to do with ketzel Coadle himself. Of what we're probably 626 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:05,040 Speaker 1: talking about is the the alleged reports of the handprints 627 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 1: and the butt prints right right, which certainly feels more 628 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:13,879 Speaker 1: like fossil like basically discovering fossil evidence of the thing 629 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,040 Speaker 1: that are you already believe in and maybe serving as 630 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,400 Speaker 1: a way to you know, physically connect with the with 631 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:24,320 Speaker 1: with your religion and with this this deity, but but 632 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 1: not the thing that inspires it outright, Uh, And yeah, 633 00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:29,400 Speaker 1: I think that's that's the idea we come back to 634 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 1: time and time again anytime we discussed geo mythology, Like 635 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:36,040 Speaker 1: sometimes it's a fun exercise to look at like could this, 636 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:40,840 Speaker 1: could this fossil remain have entirely inspired this entity? But 637 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,799 Speaker 1: in most cases it feels like there's there's a number 638 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,800 Speaker 1: of factors and fossils are maybe just one of those factors, 639 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:48,879 Speaker 1: and it's hard to know for sure. I mean, that's 640 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 1: one of those things where you're almost never gonna have 641 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,000 Speaker 1: a case where it's clear that it was inspired by 642 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,399 Speaker 1: a fossil legend, though you might have a few. Yeah, 643 00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 1: you know, interest I was thinking about Actually I was, well, actually, 644 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:01,759 Speaker 1: you know, I'd say one of the best cases of 645 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 1: the pretty clear inspirations are the ones where they bring 646 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:08,200 Speaker 1: out the bones, where people wherever they are on Earth 647 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 1: just have bones on hand that they keep as relics 648 00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:15,279 Speaker 1: and say these are the bones. Yeah, like this, the 649 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 1: mammoth example that we discussed here is a is a 650 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,840 Speaker 1: I think a wonderful example of of of actual geomethology, 651 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:24,480 Speaker 1: like because that's what they said. There was in a 652 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,080 Speaker 1: situation where we're just later saying maybe they could have 653 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,400 Speaker 1: inspired by been inspired by these bones. Well, no, they 654 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:32,319 Speaker 1: brought the bones out. The bones were part of their interpretation. 655 00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,360 Speaker 1: Now it is also possible that the myths actually predated 656 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,600 Speaker 1: the bones. Uh, you can't rule that out, but it 657 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,319 Speaker 1: seems like it's a very good candidate that since they 658 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:43,560 Speaker 1: have the bones and they have this belief that there 659 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,879 Speaker 1: that these are are linked, there's a causation link here. 660 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,239 Speaker 1: You know, um, I I can't help but wonder how 661 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:55,480 Speaker 1: Godzilla fits into all of this, because because think about it, like, 662 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:59,840 Speaker 1: Godzilla is ultimately, you know, certainly a fictional creature of 663 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,960 Speaker 1: the modern era, but in some cases when you consider 664 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:06,879 Speaker 1: like the secular world of popular culture, it's he's kind 665 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,960 Speaker 1: of a god. I mean, we said Godzilla in the 666 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,799 Speaker 1: you know, the English name for for gogahedra, So it's 667 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 1: more kind of an old school god, right, maybe one 668 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:19,359 Speaker 1: of those gods like Poseidon that most of the time 669 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:21,799 Speaker 1: isn't nice. Yeah, that rises up out of the sea 670 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 1: to destroy us. Uh uh. But also there's a fossil 671 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 1: connection because Godzilla, in his in his form is base 672 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 1: is basically based on the older interpretation of Tyrannosaurus rex fossils. 673 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:39,239 Speaker 1: You know, we know today that Tyrannosaurus rex likely you know, 674 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:43,080 Speaker 1: walked with its tail out in a vertical position, you know, 675 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:45,719 Speaker 1: in a balanced position, you know, the the version that 676 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:49,080 Speaker 1: we see in Jurassic Park. But the older interpretation was 677 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:51,040 Speaker 1: that it kind of stood more upright with its tail 678 00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,960 Speaker 1: on the ground like Godzilla does. So there's a there's 679 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,000 Speaker 1: maybe a you know, a dash of geo mythology and 680 00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:02,080 Speaker 1: Godzilla as well. Um, I feel like we we might 681 00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:04,600 Speaker 1: need to come back and do an episode on Godzilla 682 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:08,000 Speaker 1: again because there was recently a paper that came out 683 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 1: that looked at Godzilla's increase in size, how every film 684 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:15,320 Speaker 1: version that comes out makes Godzilla bigger, and comparing that 685 00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:20,040 Speaker 1: to um to to certain cultural changes, namely like how 686 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:24,480 Speaker 1: much money a given culture invest into its military. Um 687 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,759 Speaker 1: So that might be fun to discuss. Anytime we can 688 00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,480 Speaker 1: discuss Godzilla on the show. Uh, it's always a win. 689 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,320 Speaker 1: The saddest thing is that they wouldn't make a direct 690 00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 1: sequel to Shin Godzilla even after they set one up. 691 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:38,759 Speaker 1: Is it? Is it out of the question? Well, well, 692 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,560 Speaker 1: I mean that could be misunderstanding here. I think something 693 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:44,840 Speaker 1: happened where they couldn't make a sequel to Shin Godzilla 694 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:47,799 Speaker 1: because they were making this American movie that just came out, 695 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:49,799 Speaker 1: King of the Monsters, which I haven't seen but I've 696 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:53,720 Speaker 1: heard isn't very good. Um and I just want another 697 00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:57,239 Speaker 1: more in the spirit of Shin Godzilla, please, And that's 698 00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:59,880 Speaker 1: like the best modern Godzilla movie. Yeah, I mean, I 699 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,759 Speaker 1: love probably all Godzilla movie. You show me a Godzilla movie, 700 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:04,600 Speaker 1: I'm probably gonna watch it and enjoy it. But Shin 701 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 1: Godzilla was a real, real treat, a Godzilla movie that 702 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:10,520 Speaker 1: made you think. I think I tend to like the 703 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:14,439 Speaker 1: Japanese ones better than the than the recent American ones. Yeah, 704 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,960 Speaker 1: I would agree. Shin Godzilla has the best bureaucratic meetings. 705 00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:21,240 Speaker 1: It does. It's I'm always describing it to my wife 706 00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:23,400 Speaker 1: and uh and saying, oh, you should see it. It's 707 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:25,239 Speaker 1: a it's like a Godzilla movie, but it's full of 708 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,960 Speaker 1: meetings and politicians talking to each other and she's like, oh, 709 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,279 Speaker 1: that sounds awful, and I know, no, it's really good. 710 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:33,640 Speaker 1: It's just so you can't turn your head away from it. 711 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:36,480 Speaker 1: All right, Well, there you have it. Um. I follow 712 00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:40,040 Speaker 1: up to a couple of past episodes, like two prequels 713 00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:42,440 Speaker 1: in one and uh and hey, maybe a glance at 714 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:43,920 Speaker 1: the future. Let us know, do you want to hear 715 00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:46,920 Speaker 1: a whole another episode on Godzilla? Uh? You do you 716 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:50,239 Speaker 1: want to hear more episodes on Geo Mythology? Let us 717 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:52,600 Speaker 1: know we'd love to hear from you. Your your input 718 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:56,480 Speaker 1: is important to us, whether it's correcting us on something 719 00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,560 Speaker 1: we get wrong or just uh, you know, helping helping 720 00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:01,440 Speaker 1: us to grow as we are. You know that's part 721 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:03,239 Speaker 1: of the whole purpose of the show is that we 722 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:07,120 Speaker 1: feel like through exploring these topics, we're growing and hopefully 723 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:09,560 Speaker 1: you know listeners are growing as well and discovering a 724 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:13,880 Speaker 1: new uh facts about the world, new avenues to explore 725 00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:16,719 Speaker 1: on in their own time. UM so let us know. 726 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:18,239 Speaker 1: There are number ways to reach out to us. You 727 00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:20,120 Speaker 1: can find us online at stuff to Blow your Mind 728 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:22,080 Speaker 1: dot com. That's the mothership. That's where we'll find all 729 00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:24,719 Speaker 1: the episodes links that out of some social media accounts, 730 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:27,879 Speaker 1: uh T Shirts store and as always, if you want 731 00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:29,960 Speaker 1: to support the show, one of the best things you 732 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:32,120 Speaker 1: can do is to rate and review us wherever you 733 00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:34,600 Speaker 1: have the power to do so. Make sure you have subscribed, 734 00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,839 Speaker 1: and make sure you've subscribed to Invention, our show about 735 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,200 Speaker 1: techno history. It's a it's a tremendous amount of fund. 736 00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:44,840 Speaker 1: Each episode a different invention, a discussion of what came before, 737 00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:47,800 Speaker 1: how this invention changed things, and what came after. It 738 00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:51,760 Speaker 1: huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Try Harrison. 739 00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:53,680 Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us 740 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,240 Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 741 00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:58,560 Speaker 1: a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 742 00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:02,160 Speaker 1: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 743 00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:13,840 Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is 744 00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:16,160 Speaker 1: a production of iHeart Radio's How Stuff Works. 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