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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on

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Speaker 1: iHeart Radio and welcome back to Coast to Coast back

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Speaker 1: with Douglas Rushcoff. Douglas, I got to ask you about

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Speaker 1: your Alistir and Adolph the next hour. That fascinating a

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Speaker 1: cult book. But you were talking about being on the

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Speaker 1: phone and they somehow track and follow you, and did

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Speaker 1: you want to get into that again? Sure, I mean

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Speaker 1: it's funny we you know, you might be having a

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Speaker 1: phone conversation with a nephew or someone and you mentioned, oh,

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Speaker 1: you know, oh I'm going to have to buy a

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Speaker 1: you know, a new baby seat or something for you,

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Speaker 1: and then you know, you go on the internet and

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden there's like an ad for a

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Speaker 1: baby seat there, and naturally we assume, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: they're listening in on the call, right the sort of

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Speaker 1: the edge Snowden saying, where you know the NSA is

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Speaker 1: listening in on every call and all they are doing that.

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Speaker 1: That's not how they get the baby seat on there.

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Speaker 1: It's almost scarier to realize the way they figured out

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Speaker 1: about the baby seat has nothing to do with hearing

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Speaker 1: your conversation, everything to do with watching all of your

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Speaker 1: behaviors online and not even the content of your email

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Speaker 1: or the specific sites that you're going to. But they're

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Speaker 1: analyzing everything's how rapidly you click on your mouse, what

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Speaker 1: you're hover over with your pointer, how many times you've

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Speaker 1: checked your Snapchat that day, or if you've gone on

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Speaker 1: Twitter between ten and ten fifteen or ten fifteen and

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Speaker 1: ten thirty. They lump you into these big statistical buckets,

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Speaker 1: and there's enough people and enough data using all this

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Speaker 1: that they can figure out that, oh my gosh, people

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Speaker 1: who have this combination of nine key strokes are seventy

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Speaker 1: percent likely to want to be getting a babyholder for

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Speaker 1: their car, and they'll throw the ad at you. So

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Speaker 1: the weirdest thing is that this is the way the

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Speaker 1: algorithms see us. It's amazing technology, though geez, yeah, it

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Speaker 1: is amazing. I mean, and it's just predictive, just predictive algorithms.

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Speaker 1: But then when you think about it, I mean, for me,

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Speaker 1: these are kind of the dark art that I'm really

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Speaker 1: concerned about. This is why I wrote Team Human is

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Speaker 1: kind of to arm people against this and to fortify,

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Speaker 1: to fortify their resistance that for me, these algorithms are

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Speaker 1: almost like demons. I mean, think about it. You build

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Speaker 1: a piece of code, you teach it how to look

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Speaker 1: for vulnerabilities in a human being, and then how to

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Speaker 1: leverage those vulnerabilities to get us to act, often against

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Speaker 1: our own best interests. Well, you're gonna get it. You're

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Speaker 1: gonna get a kick out of this, Douglas. A couple

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Speaker 1: of years ago, I got an email from one of

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Speaker 1: our listeners who said that George, I've been looking at

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Speaker 1: the website of your guests for tonight and he's got

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Speaker 1: some very inappropriate stuff on his website, which if I

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Speaker 1: were you, i'd canceled a guest in. So I emailed

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Speaker 1: them back and I said what do you mean by inappropriate?

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Speaker 1: And he said, there's stuff there and explained it to me,

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Speaker 1: and it's so bad I didn't I don't want to

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Speaker 1: mention it on the air. But you can get a

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Speaker 1: picture of that. So I go to the guy's website,

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Speaker 1: the guest, and everything's fine, and I'm looking at it,

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Speaker 1: and I go back again an hour later. Everything's fine,

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Speaker 1: a all his stuff is fine, his ads are fine.

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Speaker 1: It dawned on me that this guy, the listener, was

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Speaker 1: looking at inappropriate material and it followed him to this

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Speaker 1: guy's website exactly. But people don't realize is that, you know,

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Speaker 1: your Google search results are different than my Google exactly.

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Speaker 1: The ads that you get are the difference ones than

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Speaker 1: I get. Your Facebook feed is different than my Facebook feed.

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Speaker 1: And that's why we're so screwed up as a society

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Speaker 1: right now. I mean, it used to be bad enough

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Speaker 1: back in the day when we would argue about things,

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Speaker 1: but at least we were seeing the same thing and

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Speaker 1: then arguing about it. Now we're arguing about things that

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Speaker 1: we're seeing, different things being presented different pictures of the world.

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Speaker 1: And the dark part, I mean, the part that bothers

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Speaker 1: me is that this is not random. This is by design.

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Speaker 1: This is a divide and conquer approach to humanity. They're

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Speaker 1: preventing us from finding common ground because the more isolated

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Speaker 1: we are, the more alienated we are from one another,

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Speaker 1: the better customers we are. The whole design of the

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Speaker 1: interactive space, of the digital space is to keep us

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Speaker 1: back in our reptile brain, to keep us responding automatically,

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Speaker 1: and they do that by showing us the equivalent of

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Speaker 1: car crashes. You know, whether you're on the pro Trump

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Speaker 1: side or the anti Trump side. You're going to see

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Speaker 1: images that get you really upset, and that's because when

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Speaker 1: you're upset, you can be more easily manipulated, more easily

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Speaker 1: sent to one place or another. You know, there's a

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Speaker 1: whole division at Stanford University called captology that technology developers

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Speaker 1: go through. And captology, just like it sounds, is the

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Speaker 1: study of how to capture people online, how to addict

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Speaker 1: them and manipulate their behavior. They port the algorithms from

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Speaker 1: Las Vegas slot machines into our Facebook news feeds, a snapchat,

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Speaker 1: and that's because they're using what's called behavioral finance in

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Speaker 1: order to modify human behavior to get us clicking on

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Speaker 1: buy buttons and just clicking, you know, just engaged online

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Speaker 1: in that strange, panicked state. Then we come out into

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Speaker 1: the world and we hear about, oh, you know, Trump

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Speaker 1: did something to Iran or Iran did something to us,

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Speaker 1: and everything is panic, Everything is catastrophe instantly, and you

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Speaker 1: can't approach any problem, you can't do anything, You can't

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Speaker 1: you can't even engage with your family and your friends

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Speaker 1: if you believe you're in the midst of a catastrophe.

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Speaker 1: Earlier today, I was doing earlier today Douglas, a brigadier general,

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Speaker 1: had a letter that he compiled that said that we

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Speaker 1: were going to leave Iraq, our troops were going to leave,

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Speaker 1: and it hit all the websites. I mean, I'm getting

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Speaker 1: these notifications like crazy, and I'm going, oh, all right,

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Speaker 1: this is interesting. Like ten minutes later, there's a retraction

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Speaker 1: from our government. No, this is not true. Who We're

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Speaker 1: not leaving. You know, this was an honest mistake. It's

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Speaker 1: not happening. What are the dangers of things getting out

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Speaker 1: there so fast, uncooperated, unchecked, and they and they start

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Speaker 1: panic or whatever. Well, the danger I mean, gosh, now

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Speaker 1: I'm really going to sound old and I wasn't alive

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Speaker 1: for it, but the danger is is orson welles wore

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Speaker 1: the world. Oh yeah, the original fake news. Only that

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Speaker 1: was being done as a joke. That did people missed

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Speaker 1: the disclaimer at the top of the show. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: but you know, and even though they put a disclaimer,

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Speaker 1: as we all knew, you know, people were compiling it

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Speaker 1: to their cars and trying to get away from the

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Speaker 1: US coasts because we're afraid of the alien invasion and

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Speaker 1: we're in an equivalent state now we're one way or another.

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Speaker 1: Almost every piece of media that we're looking at is

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Speaker 1: telling us you are in danger. You know, the world

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Speaker 1: is ending. These people are not your friends, and that's

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Speaker 1: what I'm trying to fight against. That's why I keep

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Speaker 1: I came up with this kind of this team human meme.

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Speaker 1: You know, partly it's to say, like, team human against

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Speaker 1: the robots. You know that I don't think we're going

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Speaker 1: to get replaced. I don't want to upload my consciousness

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Speaker 1: to a chip. I think you know that, even if

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Speaker 1: this singularity is coming, I don't think human beings have

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Speaker 1: to pass the evolutionary torch to our robot successors and

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Speaker 1: accept our inevitable extinction. I think we deserve a place

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Speaker 1: in the digital future. But I'm also arguing that being

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Speaker 1: human is a team sport. You know, we've bought this

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Speaker 1: really cock and made me understanding of evolution as competition

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Speaker 1: for survival between everybody. Evolutions no more the story of

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Speaker 1: competition than it is of collaboration. Of the way that

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Speaker 1: trees share resources through their root systems. They're not crowding

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Speaker 1: each other out for sunlight. They're sharing their energy with

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Speaker 1: one another through a living system of roots and mushrooms

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Speaker 1: that take a service feed for the transfer, and human

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Speaker 1: beings are like that too. We're at our best when

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Speaker 1: we're when we're connected for real to one another, which

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Speaker 1: was the original intent of the Internet. I was there.

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Speaker 1: I remember these were loving, open minded, kind of hippie

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Speaker 1: psychedelic people, thinking that the Internet could connect humanity, could

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Speaker 1: be the brain for the you know, for the spirit

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Speaker 1: of Gaia on the planet way out. But we're using

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Speaker 1: it for the opposite now, we're using it to divide

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Speaker 1: and conquer and to you to really to amplify some

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Speaker 1: of the oldest and most extractive anti human agendas that

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Speaker 1: you know, the original the original dominator agenda of Pharaoh,

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Speaker 1: you know, is really coming through these technologies to say,

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Speaker 1: I am opposed to driverless vehicles, especially driverless trucks, because

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Speaker 1: I don't want to see our truck drivers put out

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Speaker 1: of work. Hasn't the technology going so far? It's going

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Speaker 1: too far? Yeah, well, I mean it. The idea of

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Speaker 1: an automatic truck is not bad in itself. It's more

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Speaker 1: a matter of we're using it to amplify the worst

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Speaker 1: effects of an extractive economy. You know, we're taking drivers

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Speaker 1: and they're not only driving the vehicle, right, and they

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Speaker 1: should be paid for that. They're driving the vehicle across

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Speaker 1: the country, but they're also training their robot replacements in

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Speaker 1: real time as they drive. You know, every Uber driver

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Speaker 1: out there is not just getting slave wages for driving

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Speaker 1: us around when they could when they could be or

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Speaker 1: should be driving a cab like a human being. But

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Speaker 1: they're training their replacements. If they if they owned the company,

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Speaker 1: if with some kind of a cooperative then at least

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Speaker 1: they're going to have shares in the robot, you know. Sure,

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Speaker 1: but they don't. Now they don't. They're being exploited, as

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Speaker 1: are all. I mean, and truckers understand it better better

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Speaker 1: than anybody. Construction workers too, if they look at their

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Speaker 1: construction material, the machines they're using now, you know, the

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Speaker 1: Caterpillar and John Deere and everything else. There's AI on

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Speaker 1: these things, you know, And that's not just to help

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Speaker 1: the construction person build a better place. Is to teach

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Speaker 1: the machine how to do it without the human being,

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Speaker 1: you know. And that would be fine if you're gonna

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Speaker 1: pay the person. Say, look, you've trained all our trucks.

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Speaker 1: You and your family now get royalties on these trucks forever.

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Speaker 1: That's great, you know, and then you can do something else,

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Speaker 1: you know, learn, learn other things if you want. But

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Speaker 1: but that's not what they're saying. They're just want to

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Speaker 1: replace and discard. They're discarding the human contribution. That's every

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Speaker 1: single digital business plan has to do with, how do

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Speaker 1: we have less people? How do we get rid of

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Speaker 1: the people and save money doing it? Right? What's the

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Speaker 1: upside to this kind of technology? Is there any Well,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of upsides if we can if we

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Speaker 1: can embed them with human values. I mean, I've got

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Speaker 1: no problem with uh, you know, robots chilling the soil

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Speaker 1: and the farmer getting to spend a lot of time

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Speaker 1: watching his robots and drinking iced tea as they do

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Speaker 1: the work. You know, there there is a future, a

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Speaker 1: balanced future where we use technology to do things that

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Speaker 1: are you know, difficult or or painful for human beings

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Speaker 1: to do. You know, right right now, to build a

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Speaker 1: cell phone, they still have to send a kid in

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Speaker 1: Africa into a cave at gunpoint to get their rare

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Speaker 1: earth metals. No, that's that's blood on our hands, you know,

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Speaker 1: these are these are not it's just like blood diamonds.

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Speaker 1: These rare earth metals are are are dangerous to get

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Speaker 1: I mean, so sure we could be using tech to

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Speaker 1: do that, but it's really a matter of looking at

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Speaker 1: what technology do people need, rather than what technology can

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Speaker 1: we build to exploit people more, to repress their humanity,

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Speaker 1: to keep them from talking to each other, to take

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Speaker 1: more of their stuff. You know, we're looking at a

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Speaker 1: very old what the Native Americans called a disease. You know,

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Speaker 1: when the colonizers came to North America, they thought that

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Speaker 1: they had such faith in humans. They couldn't believe that

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Speaker 1: we would just tear down forests and enslave people and

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Speaker 1: kill like that. So they said we had a disease

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Speaker 1: that they called it wetico. They thought it was a

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Speaker 1: spiritual disease that led us to want to just dominate

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Speaker 1: others and take their things and extract their value. And

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Speaker 1: I think we're still suffering from that disease that we

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Speaker 1: don't realize that it's so much easier to include your

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Speaker 1: neighbors in the profit that you're making rather than to

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Speaker 1: try to exclude them, that your success is not dependent

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Speaker 1: on someone else's failure, that you better when everyone does better.

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Speaker 1: We need to teach even Walmart, we have to teach them, no,

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Speaker 1: you know, that actually, if your customers and employees are wealthier,

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Speaker 1: you're going to do better as a business, not worse.

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Speaker 1: The wealthier your customers are before they can spend with you.

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Speaker 1: That's right, Douglas, and that simple. With the way things

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Speaker 1: are moving here, we are twenty twenty. What do you

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Speaker 1: think things will look like and be like in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty five, only five years from now, which will be

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Speaker 1: like that? It's interesting, you know. It's it's easier for

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Speaker 1: us to imagine like the zombie apocalypse of the future

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Speaker 1: of fifty years from now than it is to imagine

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Speaker 1: what happens just five years from now. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: have to believe that over the next five years more

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Speaker 1: people are going to wake up to what it is

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Speaker 1: that we're talking about here, you know, either because they're

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Speaker 1: too poor to keep buying all of this tech. Eventually

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Speaker 1: you just can't get the iPhone twenty or the Android

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Speaker 1: one thousand, you know, and as you all behind things

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Speaker 1: start to work. I mean it's like, oh, I can't

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Speaker 1: use that app, and you start to look up. I mean,

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Speaker 1: what I'm doing in New York now, and I'm starting

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Speaker 1: to notice it turning around. I walked around the streets

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Speaker 1: and I never have my cell phone and never looking

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Speaker 1: at it, but I always see like everybody just staring

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Speaker 1: in their phones as their well I can't I can't

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Speaker 1: believe they don't smash in the poles and other people

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Speaker 1: into each other, into the street and the taxi kats.

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Speaker 1: But every once in a while, I noticed somebody else

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Speaker 1: looking up, and I make eye contact with that person,

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Speaker 1: and it feels like we're in a secret club of

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Speaker 1: the humans, like a body snatchers, Like, oh, there's another

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Speaker 1: one who hasn't been snatched. But I'm finding now over

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Speaker 1: the last year, more and more people are looking up.

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Speaker 1: I'm having that experience more and more. So I think

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Speaker 1: people are realizing they're getting almost nauseous with their devices.

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Speaker 1: And and yes, I know, you know your nephew or

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Speaker 1: your cousin is on Facebook and they had a kid

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Speaker 1: or whatever, but you could just find out about that

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Speaker 1: and okay, great, but they're not here right now. There's

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Speaker 1: somebody is here right now. There's your neighbor, there's your coworker,

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Speaker 1: there's your friend. And these people are coming to the

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Speaker 1: realization that their real world experiences have so much more

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Speaker 1: bandwidth to you the tech term, than any Skype connection

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Speaker 1: that you can establish rapport. Look into someone's eyes, see

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Speaker 1: if their pupils are getting larger or smaller, See if

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Speaker 1: they're breathing, is sinking up with yours? That you know,

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Speaker 1: it fires the mirror neurons in your brain and releases

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Speaker 1: oxytocin into your bloodstream, which is the bonding hormone, and

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you feel really different. You don't

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Speaker 1: feel alone. You've found another person, You've begun on that process.

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Speaker 1: So I think five years from now we will be

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Speaker 1: much more social. I think we're going to look back

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Speaker 1: on this red blue state thing just five years from

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Speaker 1: now and realize, oh wow, that's not us. They did

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Speaker 1: that to us. I'm not a red person, I'm not

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Speaker 1: a blue person. I'm just a person. And this whole

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Speaker 1: thing has been imposed on us by an industry that's

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Speaker 1: looking to make money off these days. That's that's the

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Speaker 1: name of the game for them. Yep, yep. And they

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Speaker 1: don't need it. That's the thing. When you look at

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Speaker 1: Zuckerberg with his billions, they don't even need it. They

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Speaker 1: don't need that money. It's just they're just as as

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Speaker 1: addicted to this as anybody out Listen to more Coast

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Speaker 1: to Coast AM every weeknight at one am Eastern, and

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Speaker 1: go to Coast to Coast am dot com for more