1
00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:05,280
Speaker 1: My Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of

2
00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:14,440
Speaker 1: My Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow

3
00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:18,240
Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick.

4
00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:21,479
Speaker 1: And today we're going to be kicking off a series

5
00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:27,160
Speaker 1: of episodes about examples of throwing in non human animals.

6
00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:30,000
Speaker 1: We may also talk about the evolution of throwing in

7
00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:34,680
Speaker 1: humans as well, But this is a subject I recently

8
00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:39,400
Speaker 1: became interested in, specifically because of a paper that was

9
00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:44,120
Speaker 1: published in November. Some of you might have seen science

10
00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:46,720
Speaker 1: headlines going around about this. There was a publication in

11
00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:52,239
Speaker 1: the journal Plus one about octopuses throwing objects, or at

12
00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:55,800
Speaker 1: least potentially throwing objects. The whether or not it should

13
00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:57,960
Speaker 1: count as debatable, and we'll talk about some of the

14
00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:02,560
Speaker 1: arguments for for and against um. But octopuses at least

15
00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:08,920
Speaker 1: allegedly throwing objects potentially deliberately and potentially deliberately aiming those

16
00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:13,399
Speaker 1: objects at other octopuses. Uh. Though, of course, the exact

17
00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:17,320
Speaker 1: nature of their motivations is is somewhat mysterious. It's hard

18
00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:21,199
Speaker 1: to to suss out exactly. And I thought it would

19
00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:23,840
Speaker 1: be good to to start off our series by looking

20
00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:26,959
Speaker 1: at this example that first got me interested in this

21
00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:29,720
Speaker 1: um and then maybe we can branch out to other

22
00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:34,720
Speaker 1: examples of throwing in the animal world in subsequent episodes. Interesting,

23
00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:38,280
Speaker 1: I just assumed that your interest in this topic was

24
00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:40,880
Speaker 1: because you had become a father and you were already

25
00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:45,000
Speaker 1: feeling the poll You already were longing to throw ball

26
00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,560
Speaker 1: with your child, which which is something that that I

27
00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,240
Speaker 1: felt when when I became a father, I was like, well,

28
00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:52,760
Speaker 1: I've I've got to get a ball, right, I've got

29
00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:54,800
Speaker 1: to get a mit. I have no other connection to

30
00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:58,240
Speaker 1: baseball at all, or softball or any of these sports,

31
00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:00,360
Speaker 1: no attachment to them. I don't play of them or

32
00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:04,160
Speaker 1: watched them. But there's something about throwing that that must

33
00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:07,240
Speaker 1: be done with the child. I do like throwing a ball.

34
00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:09,480
Speaker 1: I think I'm more into like a tennis ball in

35
00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:12,760
Speaker 1: the hand than a baseball. But um but that's a

36
00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:16,120
Speaker 1: dog thing, that's for dogs. I guess that's true. Also,

37
00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:19,560
Speaker 1: Um No, I'm not talking about with like the scoop.

38
00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:23,200
Speaker 1: I mean the roller ball scoop. I mean tennis ball

39
00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:26,280
Speaker 1: straight in the hand. Okay, all right, but no, that's

40
00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:28,720
Speaker 1: not the reason. And if I were to go with

41
00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:33,280
Speaker 1: the the the motor activities, I've been thinking of more

42
00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,760
Speaker 1: since becoming a father would be the act of knocking

43
00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:39,560
Speaker 1: things over after they've been set up. I think that's

44
00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:43,560
Speaker 1: an interesting impulse that we could study. Oh yes, definitely.

45
00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:48,000
Speaker 1: But onto the octopus study. So this paper was by

46
00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:53,079
Speaker 1: Peter Godfrey Smith, David Sheiel, Stephanie Chancellor, Stefan Linquist, and

47
00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:55,960
Speaker 1: Matthew Lawrence, and it was called in the line of

48
00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:00,480
Speaker 1: Fire Debris Throwing by wild Octopus is published published in

49
00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:05,080
Speaker 1: Plus one. And so first I'm going to talk about

50
00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,160
Speaker 1: what the author's report and argue in this paper here,

51
00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:10,799
Speaker 1: and then we'll talk about some context as well as

52
00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:16,240
Speaker 1: some criticism or or differences in interpretation. Now, for for

53
00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:19,480
Speaker 1: background on this subject, I think we can safely say

54
00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:23,880
Speaker 1: that not a lot of animals throw things at all.

55
00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:28,720
Speaker 1: Throwing is a relatively unique behavior, and the authors of

56
00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:31,359
Speaker 1: this study say, quote, a throw can be distinguished from

57
00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:35,320
Speaker 1: other phenomenon by the ballistic motion of a manipulable object

58
00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:40,920
Speaker 1: or material, where ballistic describes free motion and momentum. So

59
00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:43,640
Speaker 1: when I think of throwing, I think of taking a

60
00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:48,800
Speaker 1: free external object or material, so not part of your

61
00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:53,480
Speaker 1: own body, and projecting it through the environment toward a target.

62
00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:58,160
Speaker 1: Throwing is so unique that it has sometimes been characterized

63
00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:00,800
Speaker 1: as exclusively the domain of humans. But there are a

64
00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,960
Speaker 1: number of animal behaviors that I think should count as throwing.

65
00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:07,920
Speaker 1: We'll talk about them throughout the series. Uh, some very

66
00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:10,760
Speaker 1: clear examples that I don't think anybody would really dispute,

67
00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:16,000
Speaker 1: like the throwing behaviors of primates like chimpanzees and capuchin monkeys,

68
00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:18,920
Speaker 1: right right, Yeah, there are plenty of examples of this

69
00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:22,560
Speaker 1: occurring both in the wild and in captivity. Not to

70
00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:24,480
Speaker 1: not to say they're not interesting. We may come back

71
00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:28,799
Speaker 1: to some of them, but but yeah, they're very well documented. Yeah,

72
00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,360
Speaker 1: and uh, and also some very interesting ones in like

73
00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:35,520
Speaker 1: elephants and mongooses and birds and so forth. Now, if

74
00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:39,800
Speaker 1: you were to expand the definition of throwing to include

75
00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:44,080
Speaker 1: the projection of parts of the animals own body or

76
00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,800
Speaker 1: substances produced by the animal's own body, then the number

77
00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:50,920
Speaker 1: of examples really expands. Then you get all kinds of things,

78
00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:55,279
Speaker 1: Like you get spitting, which would include snakes. They're snakes

79
00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,200
Speaker 1: that project venom out of their mouths, out of their glands.

80
00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:01,279
Speaker 1: You have, of course, camels famously spit. All kinds of

81
00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:05,400
Speaker 1: animals spit, uh, and then you also have examples like spiders,

82
00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:10,360
Speaker 1: such as New World tarantulas. These spiders famously uh kind

83
00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:15,000
Speaker 1: of kick or shoot a little fibers known as urticating

84
00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:18,880
Speaker 1: hairs off of their bodies, and these are a defense

85
00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:23,039
Speaker 1: mechanism because the hairs can cause severe irritation to the

86
00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:27,480
Speaker 1: skin and mucous membranes of vertebrate animals that might threaten

87
00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:29,880
Speaker 1: the spiders. And you know, I've always thought of this

88
00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:32,720
Speaker 1: in the context of like tarantula itching powder, like it's

89
00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,800
Speaker 1: just an irritant. It's unpleasant, it gets on your skin,

90
00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:38,720
Speaker 1: it causes itching, makes you want to retreat. But apparently

91
00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:42,880
Speaker 1: in some cases of like the tarantulas with with more

92
00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:46,279
Speaker 1: severe hairs, this can even cause death in the cases

93
00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:48,960
Speaker 1: of some small animals when the when the hairs get

94
00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:53,880
Speaker 1: in their mucous membranes. Tarantulas are fascinating. I'd yet for

95
00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:57,120
Speaker 1: a return to the world of tarantulas again. But there

96
00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:00,000
Speaker 1: are other spider examples too. You know, some other spiders

97
00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:04,120
Speaker 1: are known to project or throw threads of silk produced

98
00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,599
Speaker 1: again by their own bodies at prey to capture them.

99
00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:11,520
Speaker 1: But I think we probably don't want to count substances

100
00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:15,479
Speaker 1: produced by an animal's own body for throwing, because that

101
00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:17,960
Speaker 1: seems like a kind of that's a different class of

102
00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,400
Speaker 1: behavior than what we usually think about with throwing, because

103
00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:23,520
Speaker 1: when it comes out of the animal's own body, I

104
00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:28,040
Speaker 1: would think that usually tends to be an instinctual defensive

105
00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:31,480
Speaker 1: or predation mechanism. That's something that's probably just a wrote

106
00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:36,440
Speaker 1: behavioral program that exists. You know, it's evolutionarily coded into

107
00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,200
Speaker 1: the animals a nervous system, so they just kind of

108
00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:44,720
Speaker 1: do it automatically. Whereas the throwing of free external objects

109
00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:48,920
Speaker 1: found in the nearby environment, I would argue that indicates

110
00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:53,360
Speaker 1: a very different kind of underlying mentality, a much more

111
00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:57,400
Speaker 1: interesting and versatile type of tool use. Well, of course,

112
00:06:57,400 --> 00:06:59,600
Speaker 1: it's easy for us to say since our bodies don't

113
00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:03,640
Speaker 1: really produce weapons. Um it might be a different scenario

114
00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:07,840
Speaker 1: if human beings, say, produced and shed some form of

115
00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:11,000
Speaker 1: horn or antler or um or I don't know, had

116
00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:13,960
Speaker 1: had some other you know, let your imagination go wild.

117
00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:17,280
Speaker 1: But one might well imagine some sort of a humanoid

118
00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:21,760
Speaker 1: being that had some sort of evolved feature like this

119
00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:26,800
Speaker 1: That might blur the line. But but I, but I,

120
00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:30,520
Speaker 1: I do agree, yeah, with certainly with the human factor involved. Uh,

121
00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:32,880
Speaker 1: humans are are not really going to do much with

122
00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:35,400
Speaker 1: anything that their own body produces. They're gonna have to

123
00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:38,000
Speaker 1: turn to the things in the environment around them. Yeah,

124
00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:40,360
Speaker 1: it would be interesting if a human could like cough

125
00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:44,120
Speaker 1: up darts from their stomach on command. Now what now,

126
00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:46,320
Speaker 1: and I'm trying anything how to make that plausible? Okay? Now,

127
00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:48,200
Speaker 1: imagine you've got an animal that has a sort of

128
00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:52,080
Speaker 1: gizzard and they keep gizzard stones down there, and when

129
00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:54,400
Speaker 1: they need a weapon, they just vomit up a gizzard

130
00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:56,920
Speaker 1: stone and then they can throw that there. You go,

131
00:07:57,440 --> 00:07:59,720
Speaker 1: surely somebody's had done something like that. That would that

132
00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:01,520
Speaker 1: would that would be terrific. You have some sort of

133
00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:04,000
Speaker 1: like a kaiju bird and one of its attacks is

134
00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:08,320
Speaker 1: vomiting stones at you, and these stones could perhaps you know,

135
00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:11,880
Speaker 1: be used it as some sort of a siege weapon. Okay.

136
00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:15,760
Speaker 1: So that's the distinction between like an instinctual throwing or

137
00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,000
Speaker 1: projecting of part of your body or something that comes

138
00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,800
Speaker 1: out of your body versus throwing of things found in

139
00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,800
Speaker 1: the environment. Another distinction I would like to make about

140
00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:28,880
Speaker 1: throwing is the important, the important difference between throwing away

141
00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:33,880
Speaker 1: and throwing at. For one example of this contained within

142
00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:38,079
Speaker 1: one animal. I think you could possibly make the argument

143
00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:42,760
Speaker 1: that the ant lion might exhibit both types of throwing

144
00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,240
Speaker 1: because it certainly at least does one. So the ant lion,

145
00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:49,840
Speaker 1: at one stage in its life cycle, it it lives

146
00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:51,840
Speaker 1: down at the bottom of a pit that has steep

147
00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:56,600
Speaker 1: sloped sides with uh. You know, the sides are lined

148
00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,640
Speaker 1: with sediment of a certain grain size, and a prey

149
00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,760
Speaker 1: and see falls in it can't climb back out, and

150
00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:06,360
Speaker 1: then the ant lion kicks sediment or sand up at

151
00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,280
Speaker 1: the insect, and the insect falls down into its jaws

152
00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:12,800
Speaker 1: and it eats them. And then after it's done, it

153
00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:16,080
Speaker 1: is typically known to fling the body out of the

154
00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:18,480
Speaker 1: pit by a similar motion to what it used to

155
00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:22,640
Speaker 1: fling the sand up at the insect falling in. Now,

156
00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:25,199
Speaker 1: I think you could definitely make the case that it

157
00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:29,800
Speaker 1: shows throwing away behavior because it's just rejecting the desiccated

158
00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:33,520
Speaker 1: exoskeleton of the of the ant that it has drained

159
00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:37,480
Speaker 1: of delicious juice. Is once it's done, right, yeah, absolutely,

160
00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:43,160
Speaker 1: But it may also display throwing at behavior, arguably because

161
00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,200
Speaker 1: as the ant is falling down, it will kick sand

162
00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:50,080
Speaker 1: up at the ant and uh, and you could argue

163
00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:52,480
Speaker 1: about whether that's actually at the ant or whether it's

164
00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:56,280
Speaker 1: just kind of generic sand throwing behavior that because the

165
00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:58,120
Speaker 1: real purpose, I think is not for it to land

166
00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,280
Speaker 1: on the ant, but to de ableize the walls of

167
00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:04,000
Speaker 1: the pit and cause them to avalanche downward, bringing the

168
00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,040
Speaker 1: ant further towards the bottom with the sand. Yeah. I

169
00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:08,840
Speaker 1: believe we talked about the ant line a bit in

170
00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:12,400
Speaker 1: our episode on the star lac Um, comparing the star

171
00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:18,080
Speaker 1: lacks imagined biology to the Antlin's very real biology, and yeah,

172
00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:21,559
Speaker 1: they're fascinating little creatures. But the authors of this paper

173
00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:25,120
Speaker 1: also mentioned in the background how in some cases throwing

174
00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:29,720
Speaker 1: is a kind of tool use that also sort of

175
00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:34,679
Speaker 1: contains information. Like a projectile can be not only aggressive

176
00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:38,440
Speaker 1: and violent, but it can be a communicative social tool

177
00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:43,040
Speaker 1: between animals within a social species. And that brings us

178
00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:45,280
Speaker 1: to the example of the octopus. Is because one thing

179
00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,400
Speaker 1: it's really important to realize about octopuses is that they

180
00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:52,320
Speaker 1: are for the most part, not social. They are incredibly

181
00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:56,679
Speaker 1: anti social as far as animals go. With perhaps a

182
00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:01,840
Speaker 1: few notable exceptions, octopuses and really do not socialize with

183
00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:06,079
Speaker 1: other octopuses. They don't flock together they don't form groups

184
00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:10,560
Speaker 1: usually or have very complex social relationships. For the most part,

185
00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:15,720
Speaker 1: octopuses are solitary hunters, and when they do encounter one another,

186
00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:19,600
Speaker 1: they practice avoidance or sometimes outright violence. They will fight

187
00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:23,719
Speaker 1: one another and sometimes even cannibalize one another. Yeah, that

188
00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:27,600
Speaker 1: that seems to be the extent of octopus politics. However,

189
00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:32,960
Speaker 1: despite their usual antisocial nature, there is some previous evidence

190
00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,880
Speaker 1: that octopuses might be able to communicate with or signal

191
00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:40,760
Speaker 1: information to one another. And an example that the author's

192
00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:43,680
Speaker 1: pick here is one that has some of the same

193
00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:47,600
Speaker 1: authors as this this studying question. It's by David Shield,

194
00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:51,200
Speaker 1: Peter Godfrey Smith, and Matthew Lawrence called Signal Use by

195
00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:55,439
Speaker 1: Octopuses in Agonistic Interactions, published in Current Biology in twenty

196
00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:59,560
Speaker 1: six and this study looked at the same species as

197
00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:01,439
Speaker 1: our main studies going to be looking at here, one

198
00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:06,920
Speaker 1: called Octopus tetricus, and this species can change color pigment,

199
00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:09,760
Speaker 1: can change the color patterns on its skin in a

200
00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:13,880
Speaker 1: number of ways, and this report found a correlation between

201
00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:19,560
Speaker 1: color displays on this octopus skin and intra specific behaviors

202
00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:24,280
Speaker 1: behaviors showing interactions between members of the species. The author's

203
00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,440
Speaker 1: right quote. Here we show by field observation that in

204
00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:31,480
Speaker 1: a shallow water octopus Octopus tetricus, a range of visible

205
00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:36,560
Speaker 1: displays are produced during agonistic interactions, and these displays correlate

206
00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:40,480
Speaker 1: with the outcome of those interactions. Interactions in which dark

207
00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:44,320
Speaker 1: body color by an approaching octopus was matched by similar

208
00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:48,240
Speaker 1: color in the reacting octopus were more likely to escalate

209
00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:52,360
Speaker 1: to grappling darkness, and an approaching octopus met by paler

210
00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:57,839
Speaker 1: color in the reacting octopus accompanied retreat of the paler octopus.

211
00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:00,839
Speaker 1: So this is interesting. It raises the stability that even

212
00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:03,840
Speaker 1: though these octopuses are not very friendly with one another

213
00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:05,880
Speaker 1: and they don't they don't really want to hang out

214
00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:09,480
Speaker 1: and interact, they might still be communicating. They might be

215
00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:14,040
Speaker 1: using color displays to at least communicate information about their

216
00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:17,880
Speaker 1: intentions with one another, and that could be beneficial to

217
00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:22,040
Speaker 1: both parties because it could help them avoid unnecessary violent conflict.

218
00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:25,120
Speaker 1: Like if you can change your color patterns to signal

219
00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:28,240
Speaker 1: like I mean business, I'm not going to back down,

220
00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:30,800
Speaker 1: or okay, okay, I'm not going to fight like that

221
00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:33,679
Speaker 1: can help you avoid a fight that would have happened otherwise.

222
00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:37,280
Speaker 1: M M yes, yes, this of course, a topic that's

223
00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:40,560
Speaker 1: come up recently on the show and a couple other episodes.

224
00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:43,800
Speaker 1: We talked about the Galapagos tortoise, about the showdowns between

225
00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:47,920
Speaker 1: these big males and how uh it is almost, if

226
00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:52,320
Speaker 1: not exclusively, non violent in that they just have these

227
00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:55,080
Speaker 1: showdowns with their neck, who's the who's the tallest, and

228
00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:58,160
Speaker 1: whoever is the judge to be the tallest winds and

229
00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,200
Speaker 1: there's no need for actual violence to take place. Uh.

230
00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,240
Speaker 1: It also reminds me of the the episode idea with

231
00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:06,440
Speaker 1: Joe Burger while you were out talking about goats and

232
00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:11,200
Speaker 1: rams getting into conflict over mineral resources, and part of

233
00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:16,000
Speaker 1: the issue there it does come down to how goats

234
00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:19,840
Speaker 1: deal with this sort of conflict between each other, how

235
00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:22,080
Speaker 1: rams deal with the sort of conflict with each other.

236
00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,400
Speaker 1: But then when you have goats and rams, there's can

237
00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:29,360
Speaker 1: be kind of a communication breakdown. It's really interesting. Yeah, well,

238
00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,320
Speaker 1: I mean it makes you think about how much apparent

239
00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:37,080
Speaker 1: uh conflict and violence within the natural world actually doesn't

240
00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:39,720
Speaker 1: come to violence because animals are often looking for a

241
00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:42,160
Speaker 1: way to avoid a fight. They just want to know

242
00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:45,400
Speaker 1: who would win and like find a way to sort

243
00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,280
Speaker 1: it out without having to do the violence. Yeah, even

244
00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:51,760
Speaker 1: in a lot of human combat, whether you're dealing with

245
00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:57,200
Speaker 1: individual level or more complex scenarios involving um uh, civilizations

246
00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:00,320
Speaker 1: and so forth, there's uh, you know, there so many

247
00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:02,280
Speaker 1: different way there's a lot of posturing. But then they

248
00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:05,920
Speaker 1: are also the the fights or battles one might get

249
00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:09,720
Speaker 1: into with the intention of being stopped by others before

250
00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:11,840
Speaker 1: the battle can take place. Like, there's so many different

251
00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:14,600
Speaker 1: things to consider though. I also want to come back

252
00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:17,640
Speaker 1: to this example I mentioned about the changing color patterns

253
00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:21,280
Speaker 1: on on these octopuses. I think you could also have

254
00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:25,200
Speaker 1: non communicative interpretations of this as well, that that's possible,

255
00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:29,960
Speaker 1: but it's one good interpretation of that might be that

256
00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:33,400
Speaker 1: these animals are communicating with each other, they're sharing information,

257
00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:36,560
Speaker 1: even though they're not really a social species. Now, we

258
00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:40,040
Speaker 1: also know that octopuses are able to manipulate objects in

259
00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:43,600
Speaker 1: their environments using the surprisingly deft touch of the eight

260
00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:48,320
Speaker 1: octopus arms raising the specter always of you know, possible

261
00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:52,480
Speaker 1: tool using intelligence and even maybe one day technological evolution

262
00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:56,360
Speaker 1: in the octopus. And we've seen many great examples of this.

263
00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:59,280
Speaker 1: One that I always think of is in octopus nest

264
00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:03,320
Speaker 1: building behavior. You r sometimes you'll find examples where um,

265
00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,840
Speaker 1: an octopus will be able to pull an an object

266
00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,920
Speaker 1: over the opening of its din in order to essentially

267
00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:14,000
Speaker 1: close the door, which I love. But also this study

268
00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:19,400
Speaker 1: mentions veined octopuses or anti octopus marginatus, which they say

269
00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:22,520
Speaker 1: quote carry can carry shelter in the form of nested

270
00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:26,320
Speaker 1: coconut shell haves that are then reassembled. You may have

271
00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,960
Speaker 1: seen video of this. Yeah, this is this is remarkable footage.

272
00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:33,080
Speaker 1: And I know just the just look watching an octopus

273
00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:36,760
Speaker 1: in the wild or in captivity. It seems to have

274
00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,280
Speaker 1: inspired many to imagine what it would be like if

275
00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,560
Speaker 1: they actually use tools and weapons. Um. I was I

276
00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:45,120
Speaker 1: was trying to remember where I had specifically seen an

277
00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,040
Speaker 1: image of an octopus with like a hatchet in one

278
00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,240
Speaker 1: of its tentacles. I imagine this was maybe an old

279
00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:53,040
Speaker 1: Dungeons and Dragons illustration or something. But I did an

280
00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:55,640
Speaker 1: image search and I found that numerous people have have

281
00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,040
Speaker 1: painted some sort of scenario in which an octopus is

282
00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:01,920
Speaker 1: carrying a spear. I saw one where there's like a

283
00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:06,120
Speaker 1: spear wheel wielding octopus battling a samurai octopus. So there

284
00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:10,399
Speaker 1: is something about the the the octopus arms that we

285
00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:13,640
Speaker 1: we can't help but imagine them doing truly or weapony

286
00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:16,199
Speaker 1: things with them. I'm not sure exactly why, but that

287
00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:18,960
Speaker 1: reminds me of the doom ba meme where people would

288
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:22,080
Speaker 1: just like tape a knife to the top of their room. Ba.

289
00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:26,560
Speaker 1: I don't know if I saw that one, but that

290
00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:38,880
Speaker 1: sounds sounds dangerous. Thank thank thank, Okay, Well, anyway, these

291
00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:41,960
Speaker 1: two different threads we've been talking about the use of

292
00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:46,600
Speaker 1: materials or arguably tools from the environment by octopuses and

293
00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:51,640
Speaker 1: behavior that might constitute social signaling between con specifics. These

294
00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:56,399
Speaker 1: two things come together in this studies. So the animal

295
00:17:56,400 --> 00:18:01,120
Speaker 1: in question in this paper is the species to Pus tetricus,

296
00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:05,720
Speaker 1: also known as the gloomy octopus. Now why are they

297
00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:09,440
Speaker 1: called the gloomy octopus? Well, just look at their eyes.

298
00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:13,280
Speaker 1: Some people think that these animals have eyes that look

299
00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:16,520
Speaker 1: perennially unhappy. I don't know what I think about that.

300
00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,880
Speaker 1: It's it's hard to it's hard to read too much

301
00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:22,600
Speaker 1: human emotion into octopus eyes. But then again, I get

302
00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,280
Speaker 1: to staring at this and I don't know, maybe I

303
00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:27,720
Speaker 1: do feel kind of the mood coming down a little bit.

304
00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:32,240
Speaker 1: I don't know, Maybe I mean, I get kind of

305
00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:36,360
Speaker 1: a calm vibe off of this particular octopus. It looks cozy. Well,

306
00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:38,159
Speaker 1: they do like to be cozy. They like to to

307
00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:41,439
Speaker 1: hide in their dens. So the gloomy octopus is a

308
00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:45,600
Speaker 1: medium sized ben thick octopus ben thick meaning they live

309
00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,560
Speaker 1: on the sea floor and they occupy the waters around

310
00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:52,080
Speaker 1: Australia and New Zealand. But the particular population of animals

311
00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:55,440
Speaker 1: observed in this study live in a special zone along

312
00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:59,080
Speaker 1: the bottom of Jervis Bay, Australia, which is the coast

313
00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:02,040
Speaker 1: of New South Wales as it's south of Sydney. And

314
00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,440
Speaker 1: in this area along the bottom of Jervis Bay, many

315
00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:09,880
Speaker 1: individuals of the gloomy octopus live in very close proximity

316
00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:14,879
Speaker 1: to one another, high density, especially for octopuses, making dens

317
00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:18,560
Speaker 1: sometimes just right smack next to one another. Now, is

318
00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:23,119
Speaker 1: this a change and they're normally solitary antisocial nature, It

319
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,200
Speaker 1: does not seem like that. There's no indication that these

320
00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:30,359
Speaker 1: animals like being near one another. Instead, it's a case

321
00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:32,840
Speaker 1: of a lot of octopuses trying to cram into a

322
00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:38,200
Speaker 1: spot that has both food abundance and excellent benthic strata

323
00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:41,640
Speaker 1: for making dens. So it's good real estate to make

324
00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:44,720
Speaker 1: homes in, and it's lots of great food, and it's

325
00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:48,800
Speaker 1: surrounded on all sides by terrible real estate, just sort

326
00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:53,520
Speaker 1: of featureless mud flats, which sort of prevents these octopuses

327
00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:56,720
Speaker 1: from spreading out. So for a human analogy, imagine a

328
00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:59,600
Speaker 1: kind of tiny island in the middle of the ocean

329
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,160
Speaker 1: with of food on it, lots of great stuff there,

330
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,800
Speaker 1: but it's just swarming with antisocial introverts who don't want

331
00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:07,919
Speaker 1: to talk to each other. I think I've had this

332
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,439
Speaker 1: experience on most road trips I've taken. You know, you

333
00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:14,840
Speaker 1: find that one exit that has that one chain coffee

334
00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:18,200
Speaker 1: store that you need and can depend on. Um and Yeah,

335
00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:20,720
Speaker 1: an alien observing you might say, look at all these people.

336
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:23,600
Speaker 1: They all love each other there, they love being around

337
00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:28,240
Speaker 1: each other. Oh that's good. So these spots in in

338
00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:34,760
Speaker 1: Jervis Bay have been nicknamed things like octo Lantis or Octopolis.

339
00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:37,640
Speaker 1: A lot of just a lot of these antisocial non

340
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:43,040
Speaker 1: buddies squeezing into a relatively small area. Naturally, there's gonna

341
00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:46,560
Speaker 1: be some conflict here. The octopus is regularly get in

342
00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:50,160
Speaker 1: one another's space, and this leads to the creatures poking

343
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:55,000
Speaker 1: and grappling, grabbing, generally harassing each other. Now, it was

344
00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:59,520
Speaker 1: in studying this Jervis Bay population of Tetracus that the

345
00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:04,080
Speaker 1: author is first observed what they called a throwing behavior.

346
00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,480
Speaker 1: And the team collected many hours of video footage from

347
00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:11,040
Speaker 1: emplaced cameras from a couple of different sessions. I think

348
00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:15,679
Speaker 1: there was some footage from and from and uh and

349
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:19,200
Speaker 1: they write quote here we provide the first report for

350
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:23,679
Speaker 1: any octopus species of a behavior frequently seen at these aggregations,

351
00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:28,960
Speaker 1: the throwing or projection of debris, both in social interactions

352
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:33,720
Speaker 1: and in other contexts. Ballistic motion of manipulable objects is

353
00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:37,359
Speaker 1: possible through water, albeit against greater resistance than through air.

354
00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:43,800
Speaker 1: These throws by Octopus tetricus sometimes hit other octopuses, So

355
00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:47,679
Speaker 1: they are throwing debris sometimes hitting other octopuses. And the

356
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:51,320
Speaker 1: big question is are they doing it on purpose? Are

357
00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:55,000
Speaker 1: they targeting one another on purpose? And if they are,

358
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,800
Speaker 1: is that a social signal of some kind? Now, I

359
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:02,120
Speaker 1: think it's important to first just describe exactly what's going

360
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,280
Speaker 1: on here. When when an octopus is said to quote

361
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:09,960
Speaker 1: throw something, octopuses do not throw the way humans do.

362
00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,320
Speaker 1: By building momentum with an arm motion and then releasing

363
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:15,800
Speaker 1: or at least not most of the time. The team

364
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:20,120
Speaker 1: apparently documented one case of an octopus throwing what looked

365
00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,120
Speaker 1: to be a bivalve shell by holding it in its arm,

366
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:27,600
Speaker 1: quickly straightening the arm, and then releasing the shell. Uh. Instead,

367
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,160
Speaker 1: what happens is most of the time the octopus would

368
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:34,040
Speaker 1: throw by way of its siphon, and the siphon, also

369
00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:37,359
Speaker 1: called a funnel, is kind of a tube shaped organ

370
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:40,520
Speaker 1: that octopus is used to swim. You can think of

371
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 1: it as an organic water jet. It's sort of a

372
00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:46,239
Speaker 1: pump that pumps water out the back and allows the

373
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:51,560
Speaker 1: octopus to to by reaction, push its body forward. Interesting,

374
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 1: so in in these in these cases of an octopus

375
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,400
Speaker 1: throwing it, depending on what is being thrown, you could

376
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,159
Speaker 1: think of it as being like they they've load did

377
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:04,359
Speaker 1: their their biocannon, their their fluid based biocannon with like

378
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,240
Speaker 1: a piece of shell, and are firing it. Or it's

379
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,359
Speaker 1: just kind of like loaded with debris yet well sort of,

380
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,159
Speaker 1: I mean that is good, I think, except actually what

381
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 1: the cannon is loaded with is just water as usual.

382
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,879
Speaker 1: It's more like they've loaded a cannon and they have

383
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,800
Speaker 1: put the thing they want to throw right in front

384
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,760
Speaker 1: of the cannon so that when the cannonball comes out,

385
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:26,800
Speaker 1: it hits the thing they want to throw. The cannonball

386
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:30,280
Speaker 1: just being water and propels it towards the target. Again,

387
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,080
Speaker 1: assuming that these are targeted throws. We don't know that

388
00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,120
Speaker 1: for sure, but going with that for a minute. So

389
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 1: it's a several step procedure. It goes like this. So

390
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:43,480
Speaker 1: this octopus, Octopus tetricus, it will gather external material. And

391
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 1: there were three main types of material that the author's

392
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 1: observed being thrown in the study. One is shells, generally

393
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,159
Speaker 1: mollusk shells, so like scallop shells, which also would be

394
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 1: shells of things that the octopuses are eating. And then

395
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 1: the other one is algae, and then finally silt or

396
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,000
Speaker 1: sediment from the seafloor, so just you know, sand, that

397
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. This sounds like dirty Fighters. It sounds

398
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:11,399
Speaker 1: like like the scene in so many movies, especially like

399
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:13,639
Speaker 1: Sword and Sandal movies, where there's some sort of a

400
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,199
Speaker 1: gladiatorial combat going on, and what does the villain do. Oh,

401
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 1: He's gonna get a little sand off the battleground floor

402
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 1: throw it in the eyes of our hero, except the

403
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 1: gloomy octopuses are all dirty fighters. They love to shoot

404
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 1: this silt, so you scoop that up in your arms,

405
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,440
Speaker 1: So they're actually using their arms for this part, scooping

406
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,160
Speaker 1: up the thing, whatever it is, shells, algae, or silt,

407
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 1: and then they hold it underneath the body. They hold

408
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,120
Speaker 1: it underneath the body with their arms, and then they

409
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 1: position their siphon underneath the body, which is not normally

410
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:48,640
Speaker 1: where it is. They kind of hook it under so

411
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,120
Speaker 1: that it lines up behind this stuff, and then they

412
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,879
Speaker 1: release the stuff with their arms at the same time

413
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 1: that they blast it with a jet of water from

414
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,639
Speaker 1: the siphon, and then that jet of water carries the

415
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 1: sediment toward its target. So again, this is very different

416
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,120
Speaker 1: than human throwing. I think for a rough analogy, you'd

417
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,719
Speaker 1: have to imagine that you could throw a baseball, not

418
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 1: by extending your arm rapidly and releasing it, but by

419
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 1: like holding the baseball in front of your face and

420
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,679
Speaker 1: then suddenly releasing it from your hand and at the

421
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:24,159
Speaker 1: same time blowing on it. Really hard to shoot it

422
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,680
Speaker 1: off where you want it to go. And of course

423
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 1: in order to do this we need to have far

424
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,919
Speaker 1: more lung capacity and diaphragm power than humans actually do have.

425
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 1: But just imagine you could briefly create like a little

426
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 1: jet engine exhaust port with your mouth. And this is

427
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:44,439
Speaker 1: interesting because it reminds me of stories I've read elsewhere

428
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 1: of octopuses using directed siphon jets, but without any like

429
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,720
Speaker 1: material being propelled other than the water itself. Like the

430
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,439
Speaker 1: main thing is something of their stories of octopuses in

431
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 1: captivity squirting their handlers with water from their siphon, often

432
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 1: in the context of the handler believing at least that

433
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 1: the octopus is annoyed with them or being defensive. And

434
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 1: of course this is also reminiscent of of squid uh

435
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,880
Speaker 1: using their ink in various ways, though of course that

436
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 1: would would obviously be an example again of an animal

437
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 1: using something created by its own body, rather than in

438
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 1: this case, using something from their environment. Right exactly so,

439
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:31,920
Speaker 1: when the researchers watched the gloomy octopus do this throwing

440
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 1: of of shells, weeds, and silt, some of the instances

441
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 1: were obviously cases of simple rejection behavior, the throwing away

442
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 1: we talked about earlier, and a great example of this

443
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 1: would be what they classified as eating based throwing behavior.

444
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 1: So sometimes the octopus is going to eat, you know, uh,

445
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 1: a bivalve or something. Maybe it eats a scallop, and

446
00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 1: then it throws the shells away. When it's done, it

447
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,919
Speaker 1: actually projects them away from the body. Other examples of

448
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 1: throwing away behavior would be the classification they called den cleaning. Uh.

449
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,680
Speaker 1: The octopuses actually do tidy up their dens. So they're

450
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 1: going to try to make a little hidy hole to

451
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: settle into on the sea floor. And sometimes I guess

452
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 1: it gets dirty in there, so they want to basically

453
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 1: blast a bunch of stuff out of there. And so

454
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 1: they will they will do this with their dens to

455
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:26,639
Speaker 1: get things out of the hole. Yeah, you don't want

456
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 1: your midden to get out of control there with the

457
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,159
Speaker 1: bones of your many kills or the shells of your

458
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 1: many kills. Other times, uh, they showed apparent throwing behavior

459
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 1: that the researcher said was anomalous. There was no apparent reason.

460
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 1: Maybe an octopus is just kind of like rippling arong along.

461
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 1: Nothing's really going on. It's not eating, it's not in

462
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:46,879
Speaker 1: its din, nothing else is around, but it just kind

463
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 1: of throws something that didn't happen a lot. But occasionally

464
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 1: it did. And then finally, the last category they said

465
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 1: was was what they called interactive throwing. This is when

466
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:02,479
Speaker 1: the octopus was interacting with another octopus or in a

467
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,919
Speaker 1: few cases, another animal or objects such as a fish

468
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,479
Speaker 1: or a camera. And these are the ones that are

469
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 1: really interesting because in this case, the researchers said, it

470
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 1: really looks like not just throwing away behavior, but throwing

471
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 1: at behavior. It looks like the octopuses are intentionally throwing

472
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 1: things to try to hit or discourage other octopuses in

473
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 1: their vicinity. So what proportion of throws are represented by

474
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,680
Speaker 1: these different categories. Well, to read from their results, quote,

475
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 1: over half of all throws, or fifties three percent occurred

476
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: in interactive contexts, thirty six percent in interactive, only sevent

477
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 1: in interactive mixed. And that's where they're interacting with another octopus,

478
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 1: but also something else is going on, like maybe they

479
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 1: also just finished sheeting, or they're also cleaning out their den. Uh.

480
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 1: Thirty two percent occurred during den cleaning, only eight percent

481
00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 1: after eating, and eight percent without a parent context. Oh,

482
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 1: and this total is more than due to rounding. But

483
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,719
Speaker 1: they say that the material thrown and so, and then

484
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 1: there's another distinction they make throw interactive throwing, where they're

485
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 1: basically interacting with another octopus and they throw in that

486
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 1: octopus's direction, and then they make the distinction of, well,

487
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 1: did the stuff they threw actually hit the other octopus

488
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 1: on the footage they captured, and they said that the

489
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 1: material throne hit another octopus in seventeen cases that they documented.

490
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 1: In two other throws the material hit a fish, and

491
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 1: so co author David Shield said, speaking to the media,

492
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: it seems like there's a target and they're not throwing away,

493
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 1: they're throwing at But it is a difficult question, like

494
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 1: how can you prove that they're actually intending to hit

495
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 1: another octopus with this stuff when they do it. Of course,

496
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 1: it's possible they're just accidentally or maybe inconsiderately hitting one

497
00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 1: another with these water jet payloads while they're doing somethinging else.

498
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 1: Maybe we don't know why they're doing it, and the

499
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 1: researchers aren't sure that these throws are intentionally targeted, but

500
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 1: they argue that on balance that is the more likely interpretation,

501
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 1: and that it possibly is some kind of social signal,

502
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 1: And they give a few arguments why they think it

503
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 1: is the more likely interpretation. So for one thing, Uh,

504
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: you might imagine that interactive throws are targeted and social

505
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 1: if you notice some patterns, like patterns of differences between

506
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 1: interactive throws versus other types of throws. And the researchers did,

507
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 1: in fact, documents some differences specifically between throws that hid

508
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 1: another octopus and throws that did not. One difference was

509
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 1: which arms are the octopus using. I thought this was

510
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 1: really interesting because it wasn't exactly what I would have expected.

511
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 1: But here's what they say. Okay, they say a total

512
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 1: of fourteen throws out of ninety eight that could be

513
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 1: assessed as anomalous arm throws, and these would be throws

514
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 1: using one of the side arms instead of just the

515
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 1: two front arms. Uh. They say, quote, anomalous arm throws

516
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 1: were more likely to hit other octopuses than L one

517
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 1: R one throws, and L one and R one are

518
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 1: the two frontal arms. So it seems like if you're

519
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 1: just cleaning out your den, you're just kind of throwing

520
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: stuff wherever you use the front two arms, but way

521
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 1: more often if an octopus throws something and it hits

522
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 1: a different octopus, they're using their side arms. Isn't that

523
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 1: kind of strange, and they found that the side arm

524
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 1: throws were less common overall, but more common if the

525
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 1: material hit another octopus. So something about this pattern of

526
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 1: arm choice could indicate maybe a type of aiming behavior

527
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 1: with hostile intentions. It's hard to know for sure, but

528
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 1: that is an interesting difference. They also write quote in

529
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 1: three cases of hits, a thrower also altered their body

530
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 1: orientation towards another octopus, but these movements were very slight,

531
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 1: and the effects of arm choice other than L one

532
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 1: R one were more marked. Okay, so that's one difference

533
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 1: between between throws that hit hit other octopuses and throws

534
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 1: it down. Second second difference body patterns and throw vigor.

535
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 1: These octopuses, as we mentioned earlier, can change their external appearance,

536
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 1: and in fact, they might even change their external appearance

537
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 1: in order to signal to other octopuses, maybe to help

538
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 1: avoid aggressive encounters. Uh And remember before when an octopus

539
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 1: displayed a uniform dark coloration, that was usually a sign

540
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 1: that they were displaying kind of like dominant aggressive behavior,

541
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: whereas maybe like turning paler might indicate that they were

542
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 1: willing to back away from a fight. The authors here

543
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 1: found that UH that throws that hit another octopus more

544
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 1: often took place when the thrower was displaying a uniform

545
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 1: and especially uniform dark body color. Quote. We note that

546
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 1: that throws by octopus is displaying uniform body patterns, especially

547
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 1: uniform dark patterns, were more often thrown with high vigor. Further,

548
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 1: throws by octopuses displaying uniform body patterns also hit hit

549
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 1: other octopuses significantly more more often than those in other

550
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 1: body patterns. And then also they say, in addition, high

551
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 1: vigor throws more frequently hit another octopus. However, with that

552
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 1: last point, they want to clarify, and I think this

553
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 1: is good to point out. High vigor throws, of course,

554
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 1: are because they're higher vigor, meaning thrown harder, they go longer,

555
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 1: and they have a wider range, which could explain more

556
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 1: frequent hits even if they're not deliberately targeting somebody like

557
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 1: a a random throw that goes farther and spreads farther

558
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 1: is more likely to hit something randomly than one that doesn't.

559
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 1: Another thing, they noticed material chosen when when octopuses through

560
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 1: something that hit another octopus, it was way more likely

561
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 1: to be silk as opposed to the other materials, which

562
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: appeared more often in other context. So maybe an octopus

563
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:08,920
Speaker 1: is eating or cleaning its din, it's going to be

564
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 1: more likely to throw shells around. When an octopus gets

565
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 1: into a gets into an aggressive interaction with another octopus,

566
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 1: it seems more likely they will throw silt at them.

567
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 1: M hm. Back to the dirty fighter point. Yeah, yeah,

568
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 1: And there's something about, you know, the throwing of the

569
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 1: silt to that that I don't know that a lot

570
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 1: of this is just the human perspective and all, but

571
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 1: I know it makes me think of of things like

572
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 1: another trope from films, throwing a single pedal pebble at

573
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,839
Speaker 1: a at a window pane to get somebody's attention. Uh,

574
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:42,240
Speaker 1: you know, like you know where it's You know clearly

575
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,320
Speaker 1: you're not you're actually trying to to harm anyone, but

576
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 1: you want to. You're creating a message. You're you're you're

577
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 1: sending a signal and in a different way. Uh that

578
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 1: there is a difference between pelting somebody with sand and

579
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: throwing a rock at them, like even in the human scenario, Um,

580
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,720
Speaker 1: these are two These are two acts with rather different

581
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 1: messages if they were to happen, say at a beach

582
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 1: between two people, Yes, that that that's correct. Uh, So,

583
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,839
Speaker 1: I think the material may make a difference there, though

584
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 1: they did say that the difference that they found in

585
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,360
Speaker 1: material choice was not statistically significant because they're dealing with

586
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 1: a small number of samples here. There was a difference

587
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 1: in the numbers, but it didn't make statistical cut. Now.

588
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 1: One thing, they did also observe repeat offenders and aggressive patterns.

589
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:34,320
Speaker 1: They say some particular octopuses would repeatedly throw and strike

590
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 1: another one again and again and again, and this kind

591
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 1: of repeated hit behavior would seem to indicate a deliberate,

592
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:46,959
Speaker 1: targeted pattern more than an accidental one. The authors also

593
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 1: say quote hits in many cases occurred within sequences of

594
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 1: interactions that featured ongoing mild aggression, including arm probes and

595
00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 1: momentary grappling. So they're saying we saw throws that hit

596
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 1: another octopus, often when octopuses had already been tussling a lot.

597
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,440
Speaker 1: Mm hmm okay, And in another way of stating it,

598
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 1: some octopuses might just be jerks. One last thing, they

599
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 1: say there were defensive behaviors. Uh. The apparent victim of

600
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,759
Speaker 1: the throw often reacted by either holding arms up to

601
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 1: block the jet of material flying their way, or by

602
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 1: ducking and dodging out of the way. Uh. And they

603
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 1: said sometimes octopuses who had been hit altered their behavior

604
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:35,800
Speaker 1: in some other way, by say, like pausing or halting

605
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 1: or redirecting their movements. And this last point I think

606
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 1: is really important because the authors say, you know, even

607
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,800
Speaker 1: if these throws are not actually socially intended, they do

608
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:49,279
Speaker 1: appear to have social effects, Like if they cause redirected

609
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 1: movement in the victim, that would seem to be a

610
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 1: socially relevant behavior. Even if you would I don't know

611
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 1: exactly what it would mean in this case though, to

612
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 1: say that they were not intend to be social signals

613
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 1: by the by the individual throwing. Yeah, it's so. I mean,

614
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,320
Speaker 1: it's it's an impossible task to try and do, to

615
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 1: try and put yourself in the mind of an octopus,

616
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 1: but you can't help. But wonder, coming back to some

617
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 1: of what you said earlier, like is it is it

618
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 1: potentially indeed like a directed action where the octopus, in

619
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 1: its own octopus way, is quote unquote thinking I don't

620
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:27,959
Speaker 1: like you, I want you to go away, or something

621
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 1: I will throw sand at you. Or is it like

622
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 1: the octopus is throwing sand while having a certain hostility

623
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 1: towards other octopuses or a particular octopus, and in doing so,

624
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,840
Speaker 1: these things kind of a line and maybe there's there's

625
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:48,880
Speaker 1: less intention there. I don't know. Oh no, that I

626
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 1: think that's a really good point, and that comes up

627
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 1: in one of I think the better criticisms of the

628
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 1: study that I want to get to in just a minute.

629
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:57,759
Speaker 1: But just before I do that, I want to mention

630
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 1: a few other things that the author's highlights several things

631
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 1: they did not see. Uh, and I think it's worth

632
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 1: paying attention to what these are. They say, you know what,

633
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 1: we never saw an octopus quote return fire, So they

634
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 1: never saw a throw hit initiate any kind of violent

635
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 1: retaliation by the target. That they did see the targets

636
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 1: like it might make them sort of go away or

637
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 1: redirect their movements. Thank thank They also say, and I

638
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 1: thought this was quite interesting quote. Some throws in what

639
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: appeared to be fairly intense interactions were not directed at

640
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:43,360
Speaker 1: another octopus but into empty space. So octopuses might be

641
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 1: tussling pretty strongly, like they're fighting each other, but then

642
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:52,360
Speaker 1: in the middle of that, you know, prolonged aggressive interaction,

643
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 1: the octopus just kind of like throws some material but

644
00:38:56,360 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 1: not at another octopus just throws something. Almost invites comparisons

645
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 1: of just like throwing things in a huff. But I

646
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 1: don't know if you could say that's what's going on

647
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 1: with an octopus. Yeah, yeah, no, you can't help. But

648
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:12,440
Speaker 1: but but think that again putting the human lens over everything.

649
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 1: But anyway to come back with some uh, some criticisms

650
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 1: of this type of interpretation, I was reading an article

651
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 1: in the Atlantic by Marina Corn called everyone has an

652
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:28,800
Speaker 1: Octopus opinion and uh. This article collects some arguments that

653
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:30,840
Speaker 1: there might be less than meets the eye when it

654
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 1: comes to the octopus throwing footage uh and saying that

655
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:38,800
Speaker 1: the interpretation of socially targeted throwing might just simple simply

656
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:43,320
Speaker 1: be anthropomorphization. So a few things that that are collected

657
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:46,720
Speaker 1: in this article. One is that Coren documents a dissenting

658
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:51,719
Speaker 1: opinion from an evolutionary biologist at San Francisco State University

659
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 1: named Robin Crook, who questioned whether this behavior really counts

660
00:39:56,680 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 1: as quote throwing because of the physical processes in oolved noting, again,

661
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 1: like we talked about earlier, that while octopuses will grasp

662
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 1: things and pass them around with their arms. They don't

663
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 1: use their arms to throw the way we do. Instead,

664
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 1: they use this this siphon blasting maneuver, which to Crook

665
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,959
Speaker 1: does not constitute throwing. I don't know if I would

666
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,360
Speaker 1: really like make this distinction. It seems to me like

667
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 1: the important part of throwing is like the intentional ballistic

668
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:28,399
Speaker 1: projection behavior of objects from the environment, not so much

669
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 1: like the muscle movements you use to do that. But

670
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 1: I don't know what you think. Yeah, I mean a

671
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 1: lot of it's just gonna come down to the body type, right, Um,

672
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 1: and uh, what kind of tools you have to to

673
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:43,719
Speaker 1: to send stuff fly in at another creature? Really? I

674
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 1: keep coming back to children and all of this. Um,

675
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,360
Speaker 1: I can't can't wait for you to take everything in

676
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 1: this episode with you when you start taking your your

677
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:57,800
Speaker 1: child to the beach, because um, yeah, a human child

678
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 1: is is certainly an education and all the ways that

679
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 1: you can you can send sand flying in the wrong

680
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 1: directions as well as as various other objects. They can

681
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 1: kick it, they can throw it, they can shake it

682
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:13,960
Speaker 1: from from towels. That's wonderful. I have so much magic

683
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:16,759
Speaker 1: of that kind of look forward to. Um, But no,

684
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 1: but so so so, Krook says. Another thing is that, uh,

685
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 1: you know, like we were talking about there, there are

686
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 1: other contexts in which octopus is clearly show this kind

687
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 1: of like siphon blasting behavior, such as cleaning up their

688
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 1: dens after a big meal, you know, blasting a bunch

689
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 1: of mollusk shells out, and Kirk argues that maybe that's

690
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 1: all that's happening in the footage that's examined in this paper.

691
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:40,719
Speaker 1: Sometimes they're just blasting their dens out or doing a

692
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 1: behavior that they do when they blast their den's out

693
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 1: and hitting other octopuses by accident. In the total footage,

694
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:51,800
Speaker 1: this article claims that only seventeen percent of the throws

695
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 1: actually hit another octopus, So a majority of what we

696
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 1: see either way is just throwing away behavior, not throwing

697
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 1: at the question is whether this minority of cases where

698
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,960
Speaker 1: it was interactive throwing, and especially the ones where it

699
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 1: looks like interactive throwing and it actually hit the other animal,

700
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,400
Speaker 1: those are the minority we're looking at. That's just seventeen

701
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 1: percent of all the throws. Yeah, I mean, I again

702
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 1: come back to something you mentioned earlier about again the

703
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 1: the octopus is generally a solitary creature, and this is

704
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:27,360
Speaker 1: a scenario in which they are living in close proximity

705
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 1: to one another due to the restraints of the of

706
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,799
Speaker 1: the environment itself. So you could just simply look at

707
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:38,800
Speaker 1: it like, look, these octopuses are are violent slabs, and

708
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 1: normally they're on their own being violent slabs, but now

709
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:45,719
Speaker 1: they're forced to live together, and this is this is

710
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:48,760
Speaker 1: what happens when occopuses, I don't know, stop being polite

711
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 1: and start getting real. Now, there are several things raised

712
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 1: in this article, but one I thought was actually a

713
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:58,759
Speaker 1: pretty good point to make was that even if the

714
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 1: octopuses are trying to hit one another with the throwing,

715
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 1: so maybe you can say, like half of the equation

716
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 1: is true. Maybe it is targeted throwing. They are throwing

717
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 1: at the other octopus. But at the same time you

718
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 1: could say it might still not be social octopus signaling

719
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:18,799
Speaker 1: exactly because in the words of Piero Amodio, a biologist

720
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 1: who has specialized in octopuses at anton Dorn Zoological Station

721
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:28,240
Speaker 1: in Italy, it maybe quote used more broadly towards annoying

722
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 1: or threatening stimuli. So maybe it's not a thing about

723
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 1: octopuses communicating with octopuses, but it's just like something is

724
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 1: bothering them, so they throw They just squirt object, they

725
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 1: squirt material at it. Uh And evidence for this would

726
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 1: include octopuses were also observed in a couple of instances

727
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 1: in the study throwing debris at fish uh and at

728
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:52,800
Speaker 1: a camera emplacement in a couple of cases. So it

729
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 1: could be less interspecific social signaling and more like, I

730
00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 1: don't know what that is, I don't like that object

731
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:02,720
Speaker 1: in my space. Squirt some dirt at it for this objection,

732
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 1: I think fair enough. Like in that case, I think

733
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:08,440
Speaker 1: it would definitely count as directed throwing. It would be

734
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 1: throwing at rather than throwing away. But this might limit

735
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 1: what kinds of interpretations we could make about the relationships

736
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 1: between gloomy octopuses specifically. The article makes uh sites. One

737
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:24,279
Speaker 1: last argument that I thought was pretty interesting, and this

738
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 1: comes from Christian now Roth, who is a researcher on

739
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 1: the behavior of goats at the Research Institute for Farm

740
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 1: Animal Biology in Germany. And the point that Narrowth makes

741
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:40,400
Speaker 1: here talking about goats is that, yeah, even goats have

742
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,759
Speaker 1: lots of mysteries about them. Quote, they sneeze when they're

743
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:47,440
Speaker 1: spooked or frustrated, and there is actually nothing on how

744
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:50,360
Speaker 1: often goats show this behavior, how often they use it,

745
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:53,799
Speaker 1: in which contexts they use it. Uh And I thought

746
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:57,760
Speaker 1: that was really interesting because it, of course is especially

747
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:01,480
Speaker 1: hard to figure out the motivation for animal behavior when

748
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 1: you're studying them in the wild as opposed to in

749
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 1: the lab. Like in the lab, you can strictly limit

750
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:10,239
Speaker 1: variables to some degree, but in the natural environment there

751
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 1: might be thousands of variables to disentangle, and you might

752
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 1: not even recognize what some of them are. And the

753
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:20,720
Speaker 1: specific example about okay, so goats sometimes sneeze when they're spooked,

754
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 1: but like, why do they do that? What exactly are

755
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 1: they trying to do with the sneezing. Is it a

756
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 1: directed behavior or just to kind of tick or what?

757
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 1: It reminds me of our recent discussion on the Galapagos

758
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:38,719
Speaker 1: marine iguana. Do they sort snort salt out of their

759
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:42,320
Speaker 1: salt glands at an attacker defensively, like when something is

760
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,239
Speaker 1: approaching them, when when a Charles Darwin is approaching them,

761
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:49,359
Speaker 1: as Charles Darwin thought he observed, or is the salt

762
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 1: snorting not actually correlated with with defensive behavior? Is it

763
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:58,480
Speaker 1: not actually motivated by defensive considerations at all. It's hard

764
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:01,839
Speaker 1: to tell. Yeah, again, it is so hard to step

765
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 1: outside of the um of of the human lens here

766
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:08,760
Speaker 1: when when trying to imagine what any of these creatures

767
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 1: are doing. Um, because some of these things, like we

768
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:15,399
Speaker 1: we want to interpret them and think about them as

769
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:22,240
Speaker 1: being deliberate actions as opposed to say, in the human scenario,

770
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 1: sort of uh, incidental signalings of hostility that we might have.

771
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 1: Like someone can look hostile and say a bus without

772
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:35,279
Speaker 1: actively thinking like, oh, I'm going to show everybody on

773
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 1: this bus how I feel about them. Check out my hostility.

774
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:41,320
Speaker 1: Don't come near me or or violence happens next, like

775
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:44,279
Speaker 1: you could. That person could just genuinely be and say

776
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 1: a bad mood or be thinking about something that's bothering

777
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 1: them and their their posture, that the way their their

778
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:53,239
Speaker 1: their look, their expression on their face could take on

779
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 1: a hostile energy that would then be picked up on

780
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 1: by other people. And that and that kind of ambiguity

781
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 1: exists even with in our very finely tuned ability to

782
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 1: suss out the motivations of other humans. These are on specifics.

783
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:09,359
Speaker 1: We're right in that human meal you you know, we're

784
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 1: used to that when looking at another species. I mean,

785
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 1: it's like several orders of magnitude more difficult to figure

786
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:18,719
Speaker 1: things out right, right, Because again, that same dude on

787
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 1: the bus that you're thinking looks hostile, he could just

788
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 1: be thinking about a really cool episode of some TV

789
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:26,719
Speaker 1: show that he watched, you know, and that's just all

790
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 1: you because you think, oh, somebody who looks weird on

791
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 1: a bus must have hostile intentions. Uh, they must have

792
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:35,680
Speaker 1: something negative going on, and they don't just have an

793
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:37,799
Speaker 1: intense look because they're trying to figure out the plot

794
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:41,880
Speaker 1: of of I don't know, some Netflix show. Now, I

795
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:44,880
Speaker 1: think when it comes to the ambiguity behind animal behaviors,

796
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:48,720
Speaker 1: there might be other kinds of considerations that would come in, Like, okay,

797
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 1: is the marine iguana even if you could show, wow,

798
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:54,920
Speaker 1: it does, uh, you know, snort salt out of its

799
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 1: salt glands more often when a human is approaching it,

800
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 1: That would show a correlation with the proximity of a

801
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 1: larger land animal. But it wouldn't, Uh, it wouldn't still

802
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:05,719
Speaker 1: wouldn't show it was defensive in some way. I mean,

803
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 1: maybe it's snorting like that because it's trying to I

804
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 1: don't know, like clear, some kind of gland blockage in

805
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:14,880
Speaker 1: case it needs to move quickly or something like that.

806
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 1: Maybe that's part of the kind of fight or flight uh,

807
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:22,839
Speaker 1: physiological internal regulation of the iguana's body. Who knows. I'm

808
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 1: just speculating there, But you could imagine other things for

809
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:29,920
Speaker 1: this octopus throwing behavior. Maybe the throwing is part of

810
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 1: something that's going on internally with the octopus that is

811
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:38,719
Speaker 1: related to aggressive interactions with other octopuses, but is not

812
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:42,080
Speaker 1: about hitting them with the objects, though it's hard to

813
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 1: figure out what that other purpose would be. Then again,

814
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:48,439
Speaker 1: maybe it is just about hitting them with the silt.

815
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 1: I mean, that seems like a perfectly plausible explanation to me.

816
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:56,239
Speaker 1: Either way. A fascinating look here, another fascinating consideration of

817
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 1: the world of the octopus. And this episode is also

818
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 1: kind of a stealth goat episode two, since we get

819
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:04,120
Speaker 1: to get in a little bit of goat pondering here

820
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 1: at the end. I like that. But we're gonna be

821
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 1: back with more interesting examples of throwing behavior and animals,

822
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:14,480
Speaker 1: so these questions will continue, that's right, so be sure

823
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:17,160
Speaker 1: to join us for the next one. Um, let's just

824
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 1: remind everybody that's stuff to Blow your Mind publishes in

825
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:22,319
Speaker 1: the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast feed with our

826
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 1: core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On Wednesday's we do

827
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 1: a short form artifact or monster fact episode, on Monday's

828
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 1: we do listener mail, and on Fridays we set aside

829
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:34,959
Speaker 1: most serious concerns to just talk about a weird film.

830
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:40,320
Speaker 1: Huge thanks to our audio producer Max Williams. If you

831
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:42,280
Speaker 1: would like to get in touch with us with feedback

832
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:44,600
Speaker 1: on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic

833
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:46,880
Speaker 1: for the future, or just to say hello, you can

834
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:49,719
Speaker 1: email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind

835
00:49:49,960 --> 00:50:00,719
Speaker 1: dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of I

836
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit

837
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:06,239
Speaker 1: the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

838
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 1: listening to your favorite shows.