1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Nadelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production 2 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:11,840 Speaker 1: of iHeart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the show 3 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: where we talk about all things drugs. But any views 4 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:18,760 Speaker 1: expressed here do not represent those of I Heeart Media, 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, as an 6 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not even 7 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: represent my own. And nothing contained in this show should 8 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: be used as medical advice or encouragement to use any 9 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: type of drug. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. Today's subject and guest 10 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: is a return to the issue of e cigarettes and vaping, 11 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 1: and as many of you know, you know, when I 12 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: stopped running drug policy lines four years ago, probably the 13 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: issue that most engaged me was the fight over e 14 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 1: cigarettes and jeweling and vaping and tobacco harm reduction. And 15 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: one of the reasons was, you know, so much of 16 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: it reminded me about what I'm interested in drug positive reform. 17 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: Back in the late eighties, it seemed like the science 18 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 1: and the evidence we're all headed one way, but the 19 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: politicians and the media and public opinion or all ahead 20 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 1: of the other way. And so I began to delve 21 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 1: into this area, and one of the people I learned 22 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: a lot from is my guest today, Matt Culley. He's 23 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:30,119 Speaker 1: played an important role in the vape world, the vape 24 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 1: shop owner world. He's got a web channel which evaluates 25 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: different vaping devices, which I think is the most popular 26 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 1: one in the world. And he's also been involved to 27 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: some extent in vaping activism. So Matt, welcome to Psychoactive 28 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: and thanks so much for joining me. Thanks for having 29 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: me then. I really appreciate it. You know, I was thinking, 30 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: I think the way we met was a little over 31 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 1: two years ago. I had been on somebody else's podcast 32 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: talking about this. You heard it, and you reached out 33 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 1: to me and said, you know, let's talk, And so 34 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: I gave you a call and I had to tell you. 35 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: I mean, I was scribbling notes like crazy because what 36 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 1: I needed to understand first and foremost was how did 37 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:10,800 Speaker 1: this whole e cigarette vaping thing evolved. Big Tobacco was 38 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: definitely not the pioneers and all this. Yeah, so the 39 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: East sigarette was originally created by a guy named Han 40 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: Lick in China, and there is some other evidence that, 41 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 1: like Big Tobacco, companies might have been dabbling with some 42 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: of this technology in the seventies and eighties, but they 43 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: never brought a product to market. But anyway, han Legs 44 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 1: dad died from lung cancer and so that was his motivation. 45 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 1: He was also a smoker. The whole idea behind this, 46 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 1: and I think most of our listeners know this now, 47 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: is that nicotine itself is not all that dangerous to drug. 48 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 1: It closes dependence, but it doesn't cause cancer. Got relatively 49 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 1: low association with other heart diseases and things like that. 50 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 1: Although some modest reason for concern would make cigarettes so 51 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 1: dangerous is the combustion, right, It's consuming nicotine in a 52 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 1: combustible form, and that basically what the sigarettes are doing 53 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 1: is is a allowing people to consume nicotine in a 54 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:04,519 Speaker 1: form that's not burning, it's not combusting, that's not putting 55 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 1: all these tars and other crap in your lungs. And 56 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 1: it has dramatically fewer carcinogenic ingredients, you know, not zero, 57 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 1: but dramatically fewer carcin genic ingredients than does cigarettes. You know, 58 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: it was kind of a slow thing where it was 59 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:20,359 Speaker 1: a really niche internet, grassroots thing where some of these 60 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:23,359 Speaker 1: devices started coming out of China. Most of them worked 61 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 1: very good, they didn't perform well whatsoever. And so a 62 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: group of people in the US and in the EU 63 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 1: kind of started taking them up and then modding different 64 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:35,119 Speaker 1: parts of them to make them better, creating a lot 65 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 1: of their own e liquid flavors that they thought were 66 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: better than the ones, you know, coming out of China. 67 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: And and it really started as a small niche thing 68 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: on forums on the internet. But the Chinese are the 69 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: ones who keep making them. So there's this like interplay 70 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: between the people in the US and EU on the 71 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: one hand, and then the folks in China who are 72 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: making it or are people starting to really make it 73 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: in a big way in the U s as well. Now, 74 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: I mean the mass produced products have always been made 75 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: in China. Even you know jewels and and you know 76 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: big tobaccos products, they're they're having those manufactured in China. There. 77 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: Over the years, there have been smaller manufacturers in Europe 78 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 1: and in the US that usually make more of the 79 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: advanced types of products, something more niche. You know what's 80 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: called rebuildable atomizers where you can build your own coils 81 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: and wicking in them, and they make some of their 82 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: own mechanical mods they're called, but majority of the products 83 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,280 Speaker 1: that you see out in the wild today are are 84 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 1: manufactured in China. And so what were your entry into 85 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:37,160 Speaker 1: all this? Well, the first time I ever tried on EAT, 86 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 1: it was actually probably Owned nine where there was this 87 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:43,160 Speaker 1: group of people. I think they were traveling because I 88 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: live in Montana. They were here in the summer and 89 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 1: they were in a bar and walking around trying to 90 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:50,039 Speaker 1: get people to try these things called X and they 91 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 1: had this little card that explained what it was. I 92 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 1: took a puff off of it and never you know, 93 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 1: thought about it again. But then in two thousand and twelve, 94 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:03,160 Speaker 1: I got oral cancer squam cell carcinoma, and um, you know, 95 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 1: I can't one say that it was from smoking, but 96 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: it was right where I laid the cigarette on my 97 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: lip and I don't have HPV, so like the only 98 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: reason for a thirty year old to get something like 99 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 1: that is probably from cigarettes. So after trying to uh 100 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 1: quit cold turkey multiple times. Once I had the operation 101 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: on the cancer, um, Vanessa, my fiance bought me an 102 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 1: eastig from the gas station, and that you know, got 103 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 1: me googling and doing more and more research, and I 104 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: went down the rabbit hole and got on all the 105 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:37,559 Speaker 1: forums and and watched all the YouTube videos at the time, 106 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:40,919 Speaker 1: and uh, you know, ever since then, I've I've basically 107 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:44,720 Speaker 1: been stuck in this rabbit hole. And back in that day, 108 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:48,279 Speaker 1: I mean, Jewel doesn't come around until or something like that. 109 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 1: So back then you said, there were these kind of 110 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: what they called signalized or something that we're kind of 111 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 1: not very effective devices. But then these new things began 112 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: to come along. Like you said, use the word mods, 113 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: what exactly is going on there? Yeah, you had signal 114 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 1: likes and the original mods were actually called that because 115 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 1: people are taking things like flashlights and turning them into 116 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 1: a battery holder. For an atomizer, you basically have two 117 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: parts on an east sig. You have the atomizer, which 118 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:18,239 Speaker 1: is what you know, heats up and vaporizes the liquid. 119 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 1: But then you have the battery holder that is what's 120 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: firing that atomizer. And sometimes that battery holder is more complex. 121 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 1: But yeah, people were taking those early signal like type devices, 122 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 1: modding them, making more powerful battery holders and mods what 123 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,840 Speaker 1: they called them, to to make it perform better. And 124 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:43,359 Speaker 1: then the products just kind of incrementally got better. From there, 125 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: you had tank systems. What does that mean? Tank systems 126 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 1: that's where you put the flavor. A tank system is 127 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 1: basically something that you fill up with liquid. It's larger 128 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: than something like a jewel pod. And the flavors, I mean, 129 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: who's coming up with all these, you know, hundreds of 130 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: different flavors. It's started from the users. It was just 131 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 1: a user driven innovation where you know, most of them 132 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: didn't like tobacco flavor. People have to remember, tobacco flavor 133 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: and ESICX tastes nothing like a cigarette. You can't mimic 134 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: the taste of smoke very well, right, So you know, 135 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 1: people didn't like this fake tobacco flavor that that started appearing, 136 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:23,679 Speaker 1: and so they started dabbling with other other flavors and 137 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: making things they liked. And a lot of them were 138 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: just doing this d I Y at home at first. 139 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 1: And then the whole phenomenon of the vape shops. I mean, 140 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: I assume a lot of these things people were just 141 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: buying inconvenience stores and things like that. But when did 142 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: vape shops start to emerge? You know, I can't say 143 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 1: the exact time was around eleven and then you know, 144 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 1: by the time I started vaping in we even had 145 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: one here in Montana where I lived, so like they 146 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: were really growing quite a bit by that time. And 147 00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: these are like big chains or these individuals they're there's 148 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 1: a few larger chains, but the overwhelming majority of ape 149 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: shops are small business. You might have a guy that 150 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: owns two or three in his county. You know, most 151 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: of the business owners are are ex smokers, and they 152 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 1: kind of started at how I did with they were 153 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: looking for a way to quit vaping work for them. 154 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: They got really passionate about it and decided to open 155 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: a vape shop in their area. You know, man, I 156 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 1: remember about a couple of years ago, there's a very 157 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: good young journalist, Alex Norcia, who was writing for a 158 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 1: Vice magazine and now he's been writing for the online 159 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 1: publication Filter, and he did a beautiful piece, I thought, 160 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 1: and it was about the vape shop owners and describing 161 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: that almost the harm reduction ethos that he found in 162 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: these shops that not like unlike you would find it 163 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: a needle exchange program, except you know that that you 164 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: had people who had stopped smoking by taking up vaping, 165 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: and now they wanted to sort of spread this public 166 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: health thing by setting up a shop that was for profit, 167 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 1: but where you know, there was a different sort of 168 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 1: connection to the customer. It sounded like that one has 169 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 1: in most commercial establishments. Yeah, there's there's quite a bit 170 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: more passion. And it is because a lot of people 171 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 1: view this as a life saving products. They feel like 172 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 1: it saved their lives, and they feel like it's saving 173 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: their customers lives. And they're also they kind of become 174 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:21,679 Speaker 1: more than just a shop owner to their their consumers. 175 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: They're kind of the guide, right. So you have a 176 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: smoker that comes in their overwhelmed, they see all these 177 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 1: different types of apes and they have no idea where 178 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 1: to start, and that that you know, a good shop 179 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: owner or a good uh employee of that shop will 180 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 1: help guide them through the process and you you end 181 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 1: up kind of creating a bond with your customers and 182 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: the customers build that way about the you know, the 183 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 1: person that sold him their first vape as well. Yeah, 184 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 1: you know, I walked into one of these shops a 185 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: couple of years ago, I think I was in Manhattan Beach, California, 186 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:56,439 Speaker 1: and I just started firing a hundred questions at the 187 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:58,559 Speaker 1: guy who ran the place and then sort of chatting 188 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 1: up some of the customers. But I was curious about 189 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 1: questions like, for example, you know who prefers tobacco flavor vapes? 190 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: Like do older forty year smokers? Are they the ones 191 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: more likely to favorite Where do people you know prefer 192 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 1: to switch right away to non tobacco flavors. You know 193 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 1: what's so great about vaping is the fact that you 194 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:22,199 Speaker 1: have all that variety. Now, there has been multiple polls 195 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: and studies on what adults are vaping, and I think 196 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: it's safe to say that plus of adult vapors are 197 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:36,079 Speaker 1: using a non tobacco flavored liquid. But even with um, 198 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 1: those tobacco flavors, a good portion of those aren't just 199 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: straight tobacco. It'll take a tobacco flavor that's made by 200 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: a flavoring company, and then they'll add a little bit 201 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: of vanilla and a little bit of honey, or a 202 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,319 Speaker 1: little bit of cherry or something um, and so a 203 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: lot of those are more complex than just tobacco. And 204 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 1: like I said earlier, none of these tobacco flavors truly 205 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: mimic the taste of a cigarette. So when I first 206 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 1: started vaping, I uh figured that because I was a 207 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 1: camel light smoker. I would also like a e liquid 208 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 1: flavor that tasted like camel light. But you do quickly 209 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: get your taste buds back when you quit smoking. First off. 210 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:16,679 Speaker 1: And also, none of these flavorings perfectly mimic a cigarette, 211 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 1: like I said earlier, because you can't really mimic that 212 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 1: that smoke taste. You're not you know, when you're smoking, 213 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 1: you're not tasting what it would be like to eat 214 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 1: a piece of tobacco. You're inhaling the smoke from it. 215 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 1: And the liquid flavors that are tobacco based are quite 216 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:39,439 Speaker 1: a ways off from from mimicking that experience and flavor profile. 217 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:43,679 Speaker 1: I see, I see because you know, I mean now, 218 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 1: you know you often so often see that it's the 219 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 1: flavors which are the issue, because the kids like flavors. 220 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 1: But what you're suggesting is that the adults like the 221 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 1: non tobacco flavors almost as much as the kids do. 222 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, as as we sit here, I'm vaping 223 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:02,439 Speaker 1: a watermelon peach flavor, so um. Like I said, you 224 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:04,680 Speaker 1: get your taste buds back. And also part of what 225 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 1: makes vping so successful is having that variety. I do 226 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 1: like to switch to multiple different flavors. In the summer, 227 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:14,679 Speaker 1: I like a more fruity, tropical flavor, but then a 228 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: lot of times in the winter, I like, you know, 229 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 1: something that's a little richer, like some of the desserts 230 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: or bakery types of flavors. And you know, that's what's 231 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: so great about it is everyone has different tastes and 232 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:28,839 Speaker 1: when they get sick of one flavor, they can find 233 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 1: something else that fits the bill for them. You think 234 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:33,839 Speaker 1: most vapors, most people doing this sort of stuff are 235 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:36,959 Speaker 1: switching flavors and have a variety of flavors they like. Well, 236 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 1: I mean, there's no doubt about it that that majority 237 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 1: of adults are using these flavored products. That's why you 238 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,679 Speaker 1: see in certain states or cities that when they do 239 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 1: ban flavors, the vapor shop there is not able to 240 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:51,960 Speaker 1: survive because the majority of their business was with those 241 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: flavored products, and those consumers go to you know, try 242 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:58,960 Speaker 1: to find it online somewhere or some illicit means to 243 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: to get it because they don't want to vape the 244 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: tobacco flavor. So most people are going back to say 245 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:08,079 Speaker 1: between two thousand fIF team, most people are who want 246 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: to wanting to get these things. They're buying them in 247 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: vape shops, or they're buying them in convenience stores, or 248 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 1: the buying them online or all three or how does 249 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: it shake out? It's all three. So back then, none 250 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 1: of those gas station etis were really that good. Usually 251 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: what happened is is people would initiate on those it 252 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 1: would be enough to spark their interest and then they 253 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 1: would walk into their local lape shop, or they'd start 254 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 1: watching YouTube videos and buy some stuff online. Now that 255 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:37,319 Speaker 1: that whole paradigm kind of changed when Jewel came about, 256 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: because Jewel was much more effective. Um, but back then 257 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 1: it was kind of like the gas stations and comedian 258 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: stories were just a stepping stone into the vape shops. 259 00:13:50,679 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: We'll be talking more after we hear this. Add there's 260 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 1: that initial sort of disruptive technology that emerges ten fifteen 261 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 1: years ago with the first generations of the e cigarette devices, 262 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:17,080 Speaker 1: the mods and all that, and then Jewel, you know, 263 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 1: really does something that is a whole new level of stuff. 264 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: So just explain to our listeners what was unique about Jewel. Well, 265 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 1: the magic sauce with Jewel was that they used nicotine 266 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 1: salts and so what that does is it gives for 267 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 1: a smoother hit. So a jewel has I think it's 268 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: fifty six milligrams per m L or they call it 269 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: five point six percent nicotine, which is much higher than 270 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 1: a lot of other of the refillable types of products 271 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 1: that came before it, or even some of the cigalettes 272 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 1: that came before it. And because it was a smoother draw, 273 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: people were able to handle that higher nicotine content. With 274 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 1: free base it would be so harsh on your throat 275 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: that's it wouldn't be enjoyable. So that was really it 276 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: wasn't the device itself. It wasn't the way they built 277 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 1: the atomizer inside or the battery. All that's pretty basic, 278 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 1: although they gave it a cool form factor that we 279 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: didn't really see, the whole thumb drive type look. Yeah, 280 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 1: but really the number one thing is the nicotine salts. 281 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 1: That's what makes a jewel effective. So, in other words, 282 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 1: to deliver a higher amount of nicotine, which would be 283 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: more satisfying to a consumer, although also more potentially dependence causing, 284 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: but to do it in a way which hits the 285 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: back of the throat the way smokers like, rather than 286 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: to feel really rough um the way it would have 287 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 1: with a high nicotine yield in the old fashioned models. 288 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 1: You know, it's not that a puff off of a 289 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: jewel is giving you way much more nicotine than a 290 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 1: puff off of a cigarette. They wanted to get it 291 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 1: close so that they mimic each other closely. So basically 292 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 1: one jewel pod is equilled into one pack of cigarettes roughly. 293 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 1: There's yes, I mean it's very close. There's been some 294 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 1: debate on that, but yeah, I would say that that's 295 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 1: a that's a good estimate. Yeah, although I think in 296 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 1: in the EU or the UK or whatever, I mean, 297 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: the jewels are limited to a lower level of nicotine. Yeah, 298 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 1: and that's the that's the kicker with a nicotine salt, 299 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 1: When you do it at twenty milligram, there's almost it's 300 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: almost too smooth. So a smoker or or a vapor 301 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: still likes a little bit of a throw head. They 302 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: want to feel that that vapor going into their lungs. 303 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: But with a twenty milligram nicotine salt, it's so smooth 304 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 1: that it almost feels like nothing. And I think that's 305 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 1: part of why it didn't take off as well in 306 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 1: those lower nicotine concentrations. So when jewel comes along, I mean, 307 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 1: for smokers who've been trying to quit, who have tried 308 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 1: cold turkey didn't work. Maybe they try to patch or 309 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: a gum it didn't work. You know, are there folks 310 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: who have been smoking and they find the jewel works 311 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: like nothing before and even works better than the old mods, 312 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 1: the old open tank systems. Yeah, it definitely helps some 313 00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: people that were struggling, especially the types of folks that 314 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: smoke two packs a day, that that are really used 315 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 1: to a high amount of nicotine. You know, none of 316 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:09,200 Speaker 1: the vapes out there beforehand really satisfied them. It helps 317 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 1: them quite a bit. And I think that it fits 318 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 1: a spot in the marketplace. I never felt like I 319 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 1: needed that much nicotine for myself. I very satisfied vaping 320 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:23,640 Speaker 1: twelve milligram out of a little pod system that's refillable. 321 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,880 Speaker 1: But you know, to everyone's different, and it was another 322 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: harm reduction tool out there for people, and and it 323 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 1: worked quite well. And how did the vapees shop owners 324 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,399 Speaker 1: you know, feel when jewel comes in? I mean, is 325 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 1: that cutting into their sale of all these other devices? Uh? 326 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 1: Do they see it as a welcome addition to what 327 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: they're selling. It was a rude awakening for some of them, 328 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:47,439 Speaker 1: and some of them disliked it. Some of them sold 329 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:49,440 Speaker 1: it because when you have a bunch of customers coming 330 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 1: and asking you for the jewel, you need to start 331 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,920 Speaker 1: carrying it. Um Now, you know, I think a lot 332 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 1: of people's takes on them is a little more nuanced. 333 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: It's it's not that they disliked the product. They dislike 334 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: some of the things Jewels done over the last few years, 335 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 1: especially with their lobbying, like Jewel has been for flavor 336 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: bands in some states, and uh, you know that's where 337 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 1: I kind of stand too, is I think it's an 338 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 1: effective product. It's helped a lot of people. I have 339 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 1: nothing against the Jewel, but I'm also not fond of 340 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 1: some of their their actions that they've taken the last 341 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 1: few years. Okay, so let's jump forward to nineteen here. 342 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: So jewel sort of takes off and it starts to 343 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 1: become immensely popular among adolescents, and not just adolescents who 344 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 1: had been smoking, but also adolescents who had never smoked before, 345 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:41,399 Speaker 1: and it starts to freak out their parents, oftentimes in 346 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:43,920 Speaker 1: middle upper middle class you know neighborhoods. You know, parents 347 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 1: who had never smoked and smoked in a long time 348 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: and think that jeweling is just as bad, and their 349 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: kids are saying they can't quit, and all this sort 350 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 1: of stuff. And then you have, you know, in late eighteen, 351 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: you know, Jewel, which a year a year or two before, 352 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: had also engaged in a social marketing campaign which peer 353 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,159 Speaker 1: child friendly, which seemed really bone headed at the time, 354 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 1: and they tried to tighten it up, but they'd already 355 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 1: done that damage. Late eighteen, they sell thirty percent of 356 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:14,120 Speaker 1: the company to the tobacco company Altria right for thirteen 357 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 1: billion dollars, giving Jewel a thirty eight billion dollar valuation. 358 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: And at that point, between the sale to Altria and 359 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: the explosion in east cigarette used it, especially jeweling among 360 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:30,120 Speaker 1: young people, it seems like everything turns and Scott Gottlie, 361 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: who's the head of the FDA, and they've been sort 362 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: of supportive of tobacco harm reductions, seems to be piste off. 363 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: Members of Congress, politicians start to turn. Anti vaping organizations emerge. 364 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 1: I mean, it just seems like this ship hits the fan. 365 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 1: And then there's this moment in twent nineteen when two 366 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: other things happen. One is that the activism starts to 367 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: cause all the politicians to start proposing bands on flavors 368 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 1: and maybe even bands and all East cigarettes. And the 369 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 1: other thing it happens is this e valley E V 370 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 1: A l I where the media starts reporting about a few, 371 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: you know, many people landing up in the hospital and 372 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 1: some dozens of people landing up dead because they're vaping, 373 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,639 Speaker 1: right and and so this all comes as a shock 374 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, not just Jewel, but I think 375 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:24,399 Speaker 1: the broader industry is on the defensive. So I mean, Matt, 376 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 1: you're smack in the middle of this at that time, 377 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: So just describe how that felt from where you were 378 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 1: sitting in a central place in this whole vape world. 379 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: Oh it was. That was a really tough year. And 380 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 1: then of course follow that up with COVID. But when 381 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:45,680 Speaker 1: Scott Gottlieb and the Surgeon General started calling the teen 382 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 1: vaping issue an epidemic, that really changed the game. And uh, 383 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,200 Speaker 1: you know, unfortunately, while there was a lot of teen 384 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:57,360 Speaker 1: experimentation at the time, if you really dive deeper into 385 00:20:57,359 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 1: the numbers, it's way more nuanced than that. So you know, 386 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,679 Speaker 1: they they really touted this look. Over a quarter of 387 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 1: teams were vaping and so everybody had this imagery on 388 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 1: their head that there's you know, one quarter of us 389 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:13,239 Speaker 1: teams are all just nicotine addicts, and um, you know, 390 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,919 Speaker 1: the future is screwed. But but really that was just 391 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:21,879 Speaker 1: you know that tried vaping one time or more in 392 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: the last thirty days at the same experience in the 393 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: whole marijuana thing for decades, right that the media headlines 394 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:29,199 Speaker 1: would say the sensational number, and when you look at 395 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,199 Speaker 1: the details, that's how many teenagers had smoked once in 396 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 1: the last year or maybe once in the last month. 397 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: And the daily number of consumers would be very low, 398 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: a few percent, but that would only be in the 399 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:42,920 Speaker 1: small print. And I saw the same sort of media 400 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 1: coverage happened as you're describing in the in this vaping world. 401 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 1: You know, there's a recent article out by Ken Warner, 402 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 1: the former dean of the University of Michigan School of 403 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 1: Public Health, you know, basically saying that when you hold 404 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,679 Speaker 1: all the very other variables constant, like which teams are 405 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 1: risk oriented, which teams this, and that, which you find 406 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,399 Speaker 1: is that there's this whole notion of the gateway apothis 407 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: is that kids will start vaping. You know who had 408 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 1: never smoked and they switched to smoking. Just there's almost 409 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 1: no evidence to support that sort of stuff. So it's 410 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 1: clearly an issue, right, parents are seeing this stuff, but 411 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: it's being exaggerated and blowing up by the media in 412 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,879 Speaker 1: much more substantial ways. Well. And one more thought to 413 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 1: throw in on that too, though, is it can be 414 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 1: a self fulfilling prophecy, like what we saw in San Francisco, 415 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,400 Speaker 1: where once you do ban vapes, you see teen smoking 416 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: go up, and they'll try to say, look, vaping was 417 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: a gateway to smoking. No, it's just you took all 418 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 1: the access of other safer products away, and more people 419 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 1: are smoking in your city, teens and adults. So, um, 420 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 1: you know that's that's another another way to look at 421 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:45,920 Speaker 1: it as well. Yeah, I know a very good published 422 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 1: study by a professor at Yale, Abigail Freeman, that looked 423 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 1: at that San Francisco data and found that when San 424 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:53,880 Speaker 1: Francisco started banning all that stuff, it's exactly you said, Matt, 425 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:55,959 Speaker 1: you know, smoking went up, you know, a kind of 426 00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:00,399 Speaker 1: counterproductive result of a semi well intended band from you know, 427 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: coming from a purportedly public health perspective. Yeah, and as 428 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,439 Speaker 1: far as adults go. Um. You know, I think a 429 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 1: good portion of adult vapors don't really keep on top 430 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 1: of the advocacy stuff and what's happening in vaping news. 431 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,400 Speaker 1: But the ones that do are very, very passionate. Um. 432 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 1: You know. I'm on the board board of an organization 433 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: called CASSA. It's Consumer Advocates for Smoke Free Alternatives Association, 434 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 1: and we have over two members. And uh, when there's something, 435 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,199 Speaker 1: you know, like when Trump almost banned flavors back at 436 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,119 Speaker 1: the end of twenty nine, uh, quite a few people 437 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: uh stood up and played their parts. So you know, 438 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 1: there's there's quite a few adults that are are pretty 439 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: passionate about making sure that they have access to these products. Yeah, 440 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: just because saw I think that's what c A s 441 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 1: A A right. But when the Holy Valley thing comes along, 442 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 1: that must have been infuriating. You know, A lung disease 443 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 1: that people realize almost instantly is associated with illicit tainted 444 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,919 Speaker 1: th HC cartridges, you know, which some knuckleheads have been 445 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 1: cutting with vitamin and acetate, which can be safe to 446 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,639 Speaker 1: consume orally, but when you light it up, it splatters 447 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: in your lungs and puts you in the hospital, right. 448 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 1: But you see the US Center for Disease Control and 449 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 1: others in the politicians using this vaping disease associated basically 450 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 1: entirely with illegally produced THHC cannabis vapes, using it as 451 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: an excuse to crack down more on nicotine vaporing and 452 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,400 Speaker 1: nicotine e cigarette seems to be to change the name 453 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: of the thing. I mean, I mean the valley stands 454 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,199 Speaker 1: for et cigarette and vaping use associated lung you know, 455 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,879 Speaker 1: uh injury. I mean they should take out the E 456 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: from it, because people who vape cannabis don't say I'm 457 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,400 Speaker 1: vaping cannabis from an EAST cigarette. The phrase east cigarette 458 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,120 Speaker 1: is almost only used to refer to nicotine. So it's 459 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 1: fundamentally disingenuous and effect dis honest. And the fact that 460 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: c d C and maybe f d A and others 461 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:58,640 Speaker 1: and politicians who do know better keep propagating this myth 462 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,640 Speaker 1: and keep saying, well, we're not a certain that there 463 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 1: might not be a nicotine E cigarette thing, I mean, 464 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,960 Speaker 1: I just find that fundamentally dishonest and and and it 465 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: also is responsible for people dying because by obscuring the 466 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,199 Speaker 1: really accurate evidence there and by letting people who were 467 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 1: vaping th HC know right off the bat that this 468 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: was about you know, illicitly produced th HC vape cartridge 469 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 1: is not about not about the cigarettes with nicotine. I mean, 470 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 1: people did not take the proper precautions in the marijuana 471 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,679 Speaker 1: vaping area. So I mean, you know, obviously you my 472 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: audience can hear me getting passionate about this, but so 473 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 1: much of this reminds me about the dishonesty that kind 474 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 1: of refer madness stuff we saw with marijuana. Now the 475 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 1: same sort of refor madness mentality being employed against vaping. 476 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:45,479 Speaker 1: And you know how it is to that, you know, 477 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: the first headline is what sticks, and so the damage 478 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:50,639 Speaker 1: is done. And even though we started to see more 479 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 1: and more articles that would throw in the you know, 480 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 1: it looks like this is probably from the right of 481 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: any answer to it was just too late and so 482 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:00,399 Speaker 1: even to to you know, today, there's still plenty of 483 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,639 Speaker 1: people to think Nick Genie six are what we're killing people. 484 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,360 Speaker 1: And while CDC backtracked somewhat, it's not as if they 485 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 1: did it very loudly. Well, Matt, let me ask you 486 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 1: hear about you know, the demographics in politics of this issue, right, 487 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,159 Speaker 1: So I pulled up a chart earlier, and you know, 488 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,200 Speaker 1: if you look at the states which have the highest 489 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 1: rates of smoking, they're all what we would call red states. Right, 490 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:33,440 Speaker 1: It's West Virginia is first, Kentucky, Louisiana, Ohio, Mississippi, Arkansas, Alabama, Tennessee, Missouri, Indiana, Oklahoma, 491 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 1: and then finally hit Michigan, a sort of purple state. 492 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,159 Speaker 1: In North Carolina, purple state. And then you go to 493 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,119 Speaker 1: Wyoming in South Dakota. So the states are the highest 494 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:45,199 Speaker 1: rates of smoking are basically red states. Right. Then you 495 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 1: look at what are the states with the lowest rates 496 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 1: of smoking, and at the very bottom is Utah. Right, 497 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: that's a conservative state, but it's because of the Mormons 498 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:55,200 Speaker 1: and the Holy anti smoking thing. But right from there, 499 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 1: it's California, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Hawaii, Washington, Maryland, New York, New Jersey. 500 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 1: Road is in Colorado, Virginia, Illinois or again, and then 501 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 1: you finally get to Minnesota and Nebraska. Right. So the 502 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 1: dozen states that are the lowest in smoking are except 503 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: for Utah, are basically blue states. Now I'm guessing that 504 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:18,160 Speaker 1: when it comes to vaping, those would probably be similar. Yeah, correct, 505 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: It does seem that there's quite a few more vapors 506 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 1: in Red states because they started out with more with 507 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 1: more smokers obviously, but also, um, the Red States have 508 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 1: been friendlier to vape as far as regulations go to 509 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 1: so there's more vape shops there as well. Um. You know, 510 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: in some states like Washington, California, they were really flourishing 511 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: with vape shops about six seven years ago, but a 512 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,399 Speaker 1: lot of those have shut down. The regulations have gotten 513 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 1: harder to uh to navigate, and uh so that that's 514 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 1: another reason why I think we see less vapors in 515 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 1: some of the Blue states as well. Well. There's also 516 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 1: when you look at the rest of the demographics who smoke, 517 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 1: you see that the highest rates of smoking are among 518 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:07,120 Speaker 1: Native Americans and Pacific Islanders. The lower rates are among 519 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: Hispanics and Asians, right. And when you see that, it's 520 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:14,919 Speaker 1: higher than the average is generally among white Americans, and 521 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 1: especially you see lower income, less educated white Americans. So 522 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,919 Speaker 1: you look at a group which is you know, disproportionately 523 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:27,400 Speaker 1: smoking at larger numbers and probably disproportionately interested in vaping 524 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:33,680 Speaker 1: or vaping, right, and also disproportionately supportive of Donald Trump. Yeah, 525 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 1: I would say so. So and by the way, the 526 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 1: other group we left out of this, we're the smoking 527 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: way to the highest of all um is among people 528 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: who suffer from mental illness and especially schizophrenia and some 529 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 1: other things, and also people with anxiety disorders, where you 530 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 1: see remarkably high rates of smoking. And it's baffling to 531 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 1: me why the National Association of Mental Illness, you know, 532 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 1: is not a vigorous supporter of tobacco harm reduction. But this, 533 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: this gets us into the moment with Trump in twenty nineteen, right, 534 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 1: And as I understand the story, you know, his wife Milania, 535 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 1: comes home one day and she's a bit freaked out 536 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 1: because their son, you know, they think he or his 537 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 1: buddies are vaping and uh. And she says, you know, 538 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 1: you're the president, you should do something. And Trump goes 539 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 1: out and and says, okay, I'm gonna you know, I'm 540 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 1: gonna crack down on this. And he calls his head 541 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 1: of health Human Services I think his name is as 542 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: ours are a's are, tells him to do something about it. 543 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 1: Um And then the politics start to get more interesting 544 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: because in a way, he's addressing an issue that means 545 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 1: something to his political base. Yeah, and I think obviously 546 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 1: Milannia played a part, but this is something that I 547 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: think Azar wanted quite a bit as well, and he 548 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 1: was pushing it, and then when Milannia came on board, 549 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 1: I think that's that's probably around the time Trump was like, Okay, 550 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 1: let's do this. And you know, like he did plenty 551 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 1: of times as president, he spoke very soon on it, 552 00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: right after he had the meeting on it, said we 553 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 1: were going to bay on all these flavors, and then 554 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 1: didn't really understand all the different political implications or the 555 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 1: backlash that might happen. And you know, that's when he 556 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 1: started to kind of get wishy washy and go back 557 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 1: and forth, and then eventually backtracked and only did a 558 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 1: partial ban on just pre filled pods products like jewels mango. 559 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 1: I saw a video of the meeting that Trump held 560 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 1: at the White House um on the issue of vaping 561 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 1: and what to do, and I was absolutely amazed because 562 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 1: everything I've seen about Trump, I mean, I have unlimited 563 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 1: contempt for this human being, and yet there he is 564 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: in the White House and he's got a meeting of 565 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 1: two dozen people coming from all perspectives on this issue, 566 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 1: and he's going around the room and asking people what 567 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 1: they think. And it was almost like this Obama esque 568 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: moment by Trump, and you could see he was torn. 569 00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: He didn't know what to do. You know, he had 570 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 1: his if he had his head of Health and Human 571 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 1: Services on the one hand, but he had the base 572 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 1: and it was you know, small entrepreneurs and all this 573 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 1: sort of thing, and he's kind of twisting um and uh, 574 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 1: you know, I mean it was really a fascinating moment 575 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 1: to see him kind of you all a sudden get 576 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 1: all gung ho on a on a public health message 577 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 1: and then uh and then kind of you know, get 578 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 1: confused about it. Yeah, let's not get it too twisted 579 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 1: here and give him too much credit because behind the scenes, 580 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: there was a lot of politics going on. And so 581 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 1: there was two different camps. There was the camp that 582 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 1: thought that, you know, pissing off vapors was gonna lose votes, 583 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 1: especially in really tight states like Michigan where he had 584 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 1: only won by by ten thousand votes. And then there 585 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 1: was the camp that was for the band that we're 586 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 1: worried about um pissing off the suburban moms. So while 587 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 1: you know, yes, it was really nice that he did that, 588 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: and and he was he did seem to be interested 589 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 1: about the subject. The reason behind the scenes, I believe, 590 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 1: while why there was a lot of going back and forth, 591 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 1: it was all politics. Yeah, well I saw some pulled 592 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:13,200 Speaker 1: that suburban soccer moms care about this, but that vapors 593 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 1: can be one issue voters, and in Michigan or Pennsylvania 594 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 1: or Ohio or Florida, you know that there's enough people 595 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 1: who could actually, you know, say we like you, Mr Trump, 596 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 1: but we're gonna stay home if you screw us by 597 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,080 Speaker 1: banning vaping. And you know that the whole slogan we've 598 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: we vape, we vote right. I mean, that was a 599 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: kind of powerful moment and that I recall. I think 600 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 1: you were there, Matt Right. There was a demonstration outside 601 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 1: the White House in November. Yeah, I was one of 602 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 1: the speakers and helped organize that. I think it was effective. Uh, 603 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:51,440 Speaker 1: it got media attention. Some of them made fun of us, 604 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 1: which was fine, but the whole point was to get media, 605 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 1: media attention. And at the time Trump's helicopter flew right 606 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 1: over our our rally, and uh, you know, there was 607 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 1: a lot of information after the fact that he that 608 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 1: he saw us as he was leaving the White House 609 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 1: that day, and even it's been written in some books. 610 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 1: He was talking a lot about the vaping issue behind 611 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 1: closed doors, trying to figure out what to do and 612 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 1: not wanting to piss off the vapors, worried about the 613 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 1: quote unquote vaping vote and and stuff like that. Then 614 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 1: when Trump softened on it, you know, and and uh 615 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 1: acted like he cared about the vapors and decided not 616 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 1: to ban you know, all all the flavored products he 617 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 1: was going to, I think that that made it even 618 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,320 Speaker 1: more of a political issue than it was. And and now, 619 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 1: while the left hasn't always been friendly to vaping, I 620 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:38,959 Speaker 1: think it just it made it that much worse, if 621 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 1: I'm making sense. Yeah, no, I think he did. I 622 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 1: have to tell you, you know, I've discussed this. It's 623 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:47,480 Speaker 1: so galling for me that this issue of the banning 624 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 1: on flavors, of the banning on all vaping is so 625 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 1: much being led off in times by Democrats and progressives. 626 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: And that's a community that I consider myself part of, 627 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 1: and that overwhelmingly I'm generally supportive of. But you know, 628 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 1: the same political figures, whether you know, around the country 629 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 1: who were my allies on legalizing marijuana first for medical 630 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 1: purposes and then for all adults who are supporting needle 631 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 1: exchange and harm reduction programs and the locks on the 632 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,920 Speaker 1: reduced overdoses, all that stuff. These are the same folks 633 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 1: who oftentimes have been leading the charge to ban e 634 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,920 Speaker 1: cigarettes or either to ban all flavors or everything but 635 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 1: tobacco flavors. San Francisco sort of becomes the epicenter of this. 636 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:28,400 Speaker 1: But it's happening. You know, it happened in Michigan. It 637 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 1: happened in a range of other states in the Northeast 638 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,080 Speaker 1: as well, and you know, some of that was playing 639 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:35,960 Speaker 1: off all the fears that happened around the e Valley thing, 640 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 1: which turned out not to be about the cigarettes and nicotine. Um, 641 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 1: but it it. I mean, in a way, I analogize 642 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 1: that I sometimes look back at the you know, the 643 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 1: if you look historically at the progressive movement in a 644 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 1: hundred years ago, early twentieth century, and you know, they 645 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 1: played a pivotal role in advancing good things like food 646 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:57,000 Speaker 1: and drugs, safety, and you know, child labor laws and 647 00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 1: better working conditions. Yet at the same time they also 648 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 1: are the ones who led the charge for banning alcohol 649 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 1: for alcohol prohibition, the Eighteenth Amendment, you know, which, in 650 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:07,920 Speaker 1: a way I mean to me is the progressives can 651 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,279 Speaker 1: get most of it right, but sometimes they can get 652 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: something radically wrong. And that's in believing that a prohibitionist 653 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,880 Speaker 1: measure is somehow going to be a good progressive measure. 654 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 1: And I see the same thing happening today where I 655 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 1: generally support a lot of what the progressives and Democrats 656 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 1: are pushing for in the economic scale and a whole 657 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 1: range of other fronts, But in this front, I just 658 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,360 Speaker 1: think they're going asked backwards. And what's actually bothers me 659 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 1: a bit is that, you know, I believe that my 660 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 1: political allies really understood harm reduction deep down, but in 661 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,799 Speaker 1: point of fact, you know, what it makes me suspective 662 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,839 Speaker 1: is that maybe they just don't get the core principles right. 663 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 1: That they came to the right place on drug policy 664 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,239 Speaker 1: reform for reasons that had more to do with politics, 665 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 1: with racial justice politics, with anti incarceration politics, but that 666 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,359 Speaker 1: in this issue, you know, I mean, all those things 667 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,400 Speaker 1: go out the window, either because of the fear about 668 00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:02,399 Speaker 1: their kids or because big tobacco is playing in every 669 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,120 Speaker 1: greater role in the vaping world. Yeah, I mean, there's 670 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,680 Speaker 1: multiple factors that that muddy the waters here. And as 671 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,839 Speaker 1: you know, I consider myself a progressive also, but like 672 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:13,799 Speaker 1: you said, they have kind of a checkered past when 673 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,359 Speaker 1: it comes to prohibition, and uh, sometimes they try too 674 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,759 Speaker 1: hard to save people from themselves. What I think is 675 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 1: really muddying the waters here is the big tobacco influence. 676 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:27,160 Speaker 1: But even if it wasn't big tobacco, just other big 677 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 1: corporations making money off of, you know, nicotine. And what 678 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 1: I think progressives and Democrats have to accept here is 679 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 1: that when you legalize drugs, whether it be cannabis, you know, nicotine, 680 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:42,439 Speaker 1: maybe down the road, you know, we'll we'll, we'll see 681 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 1: some others. There are gonna be legal businesses there are 682 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:48,319 Speaker 1: going to step in and some of them may get 683 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,120 Speaker 1: very large. And you know, I know that, like in 684 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 1: the marijuana world, they're trying to mitigate that somewhat and 685 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:57,760 Speaker 1: and I applaud that, but you know, once once federal 686 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,799 Speaker 1: legalization happens, you're gonna see some big players pop up 687 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 1: um and you just have to deal with that. And 688 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 1: you but you need to still regulate them, hold them 689 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:09,840 Speaker 1: to account when they do something wrong. But you have 690 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:11,759 Speaker 1: to accept that people are going to make money off 691 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,840 Speaker 1: of this, and so I think that that's what kills 692 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:16,680 Speaker 1: it for them is that they look at this now, 693 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,920 Speaker 1: is these big corporations preying on their children. You know, 694 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:22,879 Speaker 1: they hate the businesses, but then they also don't want 695 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 1: to criminalize drugs. So like, what do you do? And 696 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:28,080 Speaker 1: I think you have to accept the lesser of two 697 00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:31,879 Speaker 1: evils in this case, and that is legalization. Yeah, no, 698 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 1: I mean you see this. You know, a few decades ago, 699 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,879 Speaker 1: the kind of tobacco control was united in opposing big 700 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:41,200 Speaker 1: tobacco and trying to reduce smoking. And then when all 701 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,239 Speaker 1: these tobacco harm reduction devices emerge, e Cigarettes and a 702 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,760 Speaker 1: whole range of others. Um, you see that community split 703 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:50,799 Speaker 1: right where one group begins to say harm reduction is 704 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,080 Speaker 1: the way to go that you know for people who 705 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:57,120 Speaker 1: can't switch quit smoking, that east cigarettes and these oral products, 706 00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 1: that these are all harm reduction things that can really 707 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 1: badically reduce both smoking and the negative consequences of tobacco nicotine. 708 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:06,560 Speaker 1: And so from a public health perspective, we have to 709 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:10,439 Speaker 1: embrace harm reduction. And then there's another group right which 710 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:14,040 Speaker 1: has got the upper hands right now, which essentially is 711 00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:17,240 Speaker 1: saying our number one objective is to put a stake 712 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 1: through the heart of big tobacco, right, and that if 713 00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,839 Speaker 1: allowing big tobacco to sell e cigarettes and these other 714 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:26,480 Speaker 1: things is going to keep them alive, then we have 715 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:30,480 Speaker 1: to be against it, right, And they're exercising enormous influence. 716 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:32,720 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, Michael Bloomberg is a major donor 717 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:34,839 Speaker 1: hundreds of millions of dollars going to try to ban 718 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:37,839 Speaker 1: you know, vaping and flavored vaping and all that sort 719 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:41,040 Speaker 1: of stuff, giving money to the c d c S Foundation, 720 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:44,480 Speaker 1: giving money to W h O's Foundation. So you see 721 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 1: a kind of um, you know, where the original public 722 00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:52,320 Speaker 1: health objectives and ideals of tobacco control have almost become 723 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:57,200 Speaker 1: secondary because of this passionate you know, opposition to big tobacco. 724 00:38:57,480 --> 00:38:59,919 Speaker 1: And as you said, that dovetails to the broader liberal 725 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,920 Speaker 1: view of kind of you know, multinationals, big industry is 726 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 1: inherently bad. So therefore if they might benefit in some way, 727 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,880 Speaker 1: you know, we got to oppose it. Well, just one 728 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,759 Speaker 1: thing to say about tobacco control. You're not quitting the 729 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:13,719 Speaker 1: way they always planned for you to quit, So you're 730 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:15,759 Speaker 1: kind of you know, a wrench has been thrown into 731 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,759 Speaker 1: their plans. These people have had these plans for decades, right, 732 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,560 Speaker 1: and they've seen that the smoking rates lower even before 733 00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:24,440 Speaker 1: vaping came along, and so they think, you, oh, great, 734 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:26,960 Speaker 1: you know now nicotine is here to stay. Even with 735 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:31,360 Speaker 1: the pro vape researchers, they still show if you listen 736 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,040 Speaker 1: to sometimes or read some of their literature, they still 737 00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 1: show these kind of puritanical glimpses of themselves where their 738 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:43,359 Speaker 1: end goal really still seems like to eradicate nicotine completely. Like, yes, 739 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,560 Speaker 1: we we were for e siggs as a harm reduction 740 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,400 Speaker 1: quitting tool, and then eventually they'll get off the stiggs 741 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:51,879 Speaker 1: and then you know, new generations just won't use any 742 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,239 Speaker 1: of it. So we we need to only let the 743 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,480 Speaker 1: smokers vape and make sure the kids never get it. 744 00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,279 Speaker 1: And eventually the smokers are going to die off where 745 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,320 Speaker 1: they're gonna you know, quit you know, vaporing, and nicotine 746 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 1: is gonna die with them. So even if you look 747 00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 1: closely with some of these people that we both like, 748 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,520 Speaker 1: they still are a little more puritanical than probably you 749 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,440 Speaker 1: or I are on the subjects where you know, I 750 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:16,960 Speaker 1: think nicotine's here to stay. I don't think it's going anywhere, 751 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,680 Speaker 1: you know, how it's ingested me evolve. But we need 752 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:22,839 Speaker 1: to stop thinking of it as like winning the war 753 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:27,319 Speaker 1: is uh by eradicating nicotine. In my mind, winning the 754 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,440 Speaker 1: war is you know, saving lives, right, regardless of what 755 00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:33,160 Speaker 1: they're using. Yeah, I think you're right. You could snap 756 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:36,320 Speaker 1: your fingers tomorrow and all of the thirty million smokers 757 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:38,680 Speaker 1: in the US and the billion plus smokers around the 758 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,720 Speaker 1: world were to switch to e cigarettes or other tobacco 759 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:43,960 Speaker 1: harm aduction devices, it would probably be one of the 760 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:47,080 Speaker 1: greatest advances in public health and human history because these 761 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:53,040 Speaker 1: devices tend to be, you know, less dangerous than smoking cigarettes. Right, 762 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:57,239 Speaker 1: A world with dramatically fewer smokers even have involved dramatically 763 00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:00,520 Speaker 1: more vapors, you know, is a much healthier world with 764 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,480 Speaker 1: people living much longer lives. But the fact that it's 765 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:05,240 Speaker 1: going to put money in the hands of big tobacco, 766 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:07,200 Speaker 1: the fact that people are gonna be dependent upon this, 767 00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:09,280 Speaker 1: the fact that many people are going to become dependent 768 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:12,440 Speaker 1: while they're still teenagers. That all raises moral and you know, 769 00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:14,880 Speaker 1: ethical issues and all this sort of stuff. But I 770 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:18,000 Speaker 1: think it blinds us to the bottom line public health 771 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:21,600 Speaker 1: thing which is what's most gonna save lives and extend lies. 772 00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:23,560 Speaker 1: And I think, you know, I mean, I think that 773 00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:26,040 Speaker 1: is ultimately where the debate is gonna go. The other 774 00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:28,080 Speaker 1: part is that some of the folks in harve reduction 775 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:30,960 Speaker 1: think that if we can reduce smoking enough in this country, 776 00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:34,239 Speaker 1: you know, froment of the adult population down to five 777 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:37,759 Speaker 1: four three percent, you know, well, then let's band cigarettes, 778 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:41,000 Speaker 1: or let's cut the nicotine in them so low that 779 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:43,719 Speaker 1: nobody even wants to smoke anymore. But I think if 780 00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:46,400 Speaker 1: you do that, you're going to see a black market 781 00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:50,840 Speaker 1: emerged in cigarettes that could well dwarf the black market 782 00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:53,239 Speaker 1: we've seen with heroin, cocaine, meth amphetaman with all the 783 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:56,840 Speaker 1: mass incarceration and global black markets and and organized crime 784 00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:58,560 Speaker 1: and all that sort of stuff. And I think that 785 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:04,360 Speaker 1: many folks in tobacco reduction don't take that possibility seriously enough. Yeah, 786 00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,160 Speaker 1: I've corrected quite a few people that have said something like, 787 00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:11,239 Speaker 1: let's ban cigarettes. That's absolutely a horrible idea. And you 788 00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:13,520 Speaker 1: you and I both know what communities that's going to 789 00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:16,040 Speaker 1: disproportionally affect, and who the first people are going to 790 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:18,760 Speaker 1: be arrested from it. It would create a huge black market. 791 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:21,760 Speaker 1: There's already multiple states in this country that have massive 792 00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:25,799 Speaker 1: cigarette black markets because of owners regulations. Well, you know, 793 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:27,160 Speaker 1: I think about it. I mean, if we go to 794 00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:29,640 Speaker 1: the point of banning cigarettes, I mean, you remember the 795 00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,080 Speaker 1: case of Eric Garner. You know who the cops you know, 796 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:34,840 Speaker 1: landed up, you know, killing um. This guy was selling 797 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,400 Speaker 1: Lucy's in New York, you know, individual cigarettes, and you 798 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:40,560 Speaker 1: can see the Eric Garner phenomena increasing dramatically. We know 799 00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:42,880 Speaker 1: that when markets become more listit like that, you know, 800 00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:45,880 Speaker 1: it presents opportunities for people who don't have better better 801 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:49,040 Speaker 1: chances in poor communities and poor black and brown communities. 802 00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:51,359 Speaker 1: But I'll tell you something else. I also think there's 803 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,920 Speaker 1: another possibility here, which is that given the extent to 804 00:42:55,000 --> 00:43:01,720 Speaker 1: which smoking is disproportionately concentrated, oftentimes in poor, white, Trump 805 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,560 Speaker 1: leaning communities, the ones who don't trust the government, the 806 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,640 Speaker 1: ones who are gun friendly, the ones who don't buy 807 00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,080 Speaker 1: the stuff on COVID, all of this sort of stuff, 808 00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:14,040 Speaker 1: and who basically believe that smoking is a basic human right. 809 00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:16,520 Speaker 1: On some level, they're right about it being a basic 810 00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:18,359 Speaker 1: human right to put in your body what you want. 811 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:22,759 Speaker 1: I could easily see the emergence of black markets in 812 00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:26,879 Speaker 1: which you begin to see white nationalists, you know, organizations 813 00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:29,680 Speaker 1: playing in every bigger role and traffic in this stuff, 814 00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:32,120 Speaker 1: growing it, you know, smuggling it, you know, and and 815 00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:35,520 Speaker 1: really seeing themselves is not just making money illegally, but 816 00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:38,560 Speaker 1: also doing this in a way that almost feels political. 817 00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:40,879 Speaker 1: So I know, I'm kind of you know, jumping into 818 00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:42,920 Speaker 1: the future with this thing, but if you look at 819 00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:45,160 Speaker 1: where the country is going in terms of polarization and 820 00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:48,280 Speaker 1: radicalization and what's happened with COVID and the anti mass stuff, 821 00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:52,840 Speaker 1: I could easily see an overly aggressive tobacco policy playing 822 00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:55,239 Speaker 1: into that mix. Yeah, I agree. I mean there's a 823 00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:58,239 Speaker 1: lot of outcomes that that could come from from a 824 00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:01,239 Speaker 1: cigarette bandon and none of them look very good. And uh, 825 00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:04,839 Speaker 1: you're much better off allowing cigarettes to exist, but having 826 00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:08,040 Speaker 1: a government that gives their citizens the proper information. And 827 00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:10,640 Speaker 1: that's what we see in the UK. The UK has 828 00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:13,680 Speaker 1: some dumb regulations. They have a nicotine cap, they have 829 00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:17,680 Speaker 1: uh a, some regulations on the size of tanks they allowed. 830 00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,960 Speaker 1: There's some silly stuff there, but people are switching to 831 00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:23,839 Speaker 1: vaping in the UK and sticking with it because they 832 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:26,719 Speaker 1: also have that support from their government, telling them the 833 00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:30,000 Speaker 1: giving them the proper info, telling them you know that 834 00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:32,920 Speaker 1: it's harm reduction, telling them, you know, the rail College 835 00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:36,320 Speaker 1: of Physicians is still doubling down and saying vaping is 836 00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,920 Speaker 1: at least safer than smoking. That means a lot. So 837 00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:43,000 Speaker 1: if we had something like that in this country, um, 838 00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:45,840 Speaker 1: you know, you'd see a shipload more vapors than we 839 00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:49,080 Speaker 1: have today. Let's take a break here and go to 840 00:44:49,120 --> 00:45:00,759 Speaker 1: an ad So, Matt, let me I see this. In 841 00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:04,919 Speaker 1: early mid October, the f d A basically allowed UH 842 00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:07,960 Speaker 1: its first e cigarette um to be sold. You it's 843 00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:11,719 Speaker 1: called views solo, right, It's not very popular device, but 844 00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:14,279 Speaker 1: it's opened up the door, right, And now you and 845 00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:16,920 Speaker 1: I are talking the day before Thanksgiving. So it's possible 846 00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:21,200 Speaker 1: that the FDA begins to give approval for Jewel or Enjoy, 847 00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:23,520 Speaker 1: which is the one of the bigger of the independent companies, 848 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:26,080 Speaker 1: or some of the other companies, to sell their products 849 00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:28,520 Speaker 1: as well, um, you know, without giving them a stamp 850 00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:31,680 Speaker 1: of approval, but basically saying we've determined that they're safe 851 00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,719 Speaker 1: enough and that the benefits to adults in terms of smoking, sexation, 852 00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:39,520 Speaker 1: cessation exceed the possible harms to young people in terms 853 00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:42,920 Speaker 1: of uptake of aping. But it's also important to note 854 00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:46,160 Speaker 1: that two years ago, you know, the f d A 855 00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:50,000 Speaker 1: gave a kind of qualified to green light to stuffs, right, 856 00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:53,920 Speaker 1: which is that oral nicotine thing that was enormously successful 857 00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:57,520 Speaker 1: in Sweden a Norway in reducing smoking rates among adult 858 00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:00,279 Speaker 1: men to the lowest in the world. And then you 859 00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:04,760 Speaker 1: know last year in July. Um in July, they gave 860 00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:07,600 Speaker 1: a kind of qualified green light to icos, which is, uh, 861 00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:10,520 Speaker 1: you know, a heated tobacco products, so like an East cigarette, 862 00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:13,960 Speaker 1: but it works somewhat differently. So we see some of 863 00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:18,399 Speaker 1: these other products being approved and maybe more down the road. 864 00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:21,799 Speaker 1: They're all harm reduction devices. They all present dramatically fewer 865 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:24,360 Speaker 1: risks to people's health, and does smoking some of them 866 00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:27,680 Speaker 1: maybe even safer than ease cigarettes. What I'm curious about 867 00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:30,600 Speaker 1: is when you go back in your vape shop world, 868 00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:33,680 Speaker 1: I mean, are the sniffs products, the oral products. There's 869 00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:35,960 Speaker 1: something called zen which is a nicotine pouch that people 870 00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,839 Speaker 1: are also finding useful to stop smoking. Do those all 871 00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:41,400 Speaker 1: fit into that mixer they all integrated, or are they 872 00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:45,319 Speaker 1: seen as another world? Um. Some shops sell that, some 873 00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:48,640 Speaker 1: don't you know myself, I'm a th hr to tobacco 874 00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:52,359 Speaker 1: harm reduction absolutists, like I'm for any products that's gonna help, 875 00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:56,680 Speaker 1: you know, reduce harm, regardless of what someone wants to use. Um, 876 00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:00,000 Speaker 1: I've seen more and more a lot of these vape 877 00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:02,839 Speaker 1: shops that were once maybe predominantly vape shops are now 878 00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:06,319 Speaker 1: almost like a head shop where there's also selling some 879 00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:09,920 Speaker 1: you know, CBD products, and they're also selling snooze and 880 00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:12,800 Speaker 1: and maybe they're even selling cigars which are combustible and 881 00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:16,759 Speaker 1: you know, could cause health problems to people. But let 882 00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:19,239 Speaker 1: I think a lot of them have had to span 883 00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:22,160 Speaker 1: out just to keep their doors open. Um. You know, 884 00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:25,600 Speaker 1: obviously E Valley and everything hit them hard, and uh, 885 00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:28,040 Speaker 1: it's scared people off. You had a lot of people 886 00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:31,239 Speaker 1: that were we're already vaping that went back to cigarettes 887 00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:34,080 Speaker 1: once they read the read those original headlines. And then 888 00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:37,600 Speaker 1: you had smokers that would have become vapors that didn't 889 00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:41,279 Speaker 1: become vapors because of that. And so they have had 890 00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:44,160 Speaker 1: to expand and the little carry different types, you know, 891 00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:49,000 Speaker 1: more various products now than they did before. M hmm. 892 00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:51,880 Speaker 1: You know that it brings up the question, so you know, 893 00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:55,080 Speaker 1: we haven't really talked about very much THHC and cannabis 894 00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:58,839 Speaker 1: and CDD, but obviously that's a hugely booming world. And 895 00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:01,520 Speaker 1: we see cannabis, you know, both th HC based products 896 00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:04,920 Speaker 1: and CBD products and others emerging, you know, but also 897 00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:08,720 Speaker 1: in edible forms and drinkable forms and patches and gums 898 00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:12,399 Speaker 1: and you name it, right, I mean, how much interaction 899 00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:15,080 Speaker 1: has there been? I mean, I think, for example, you 900 00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:18,640 Speaker 1: go back historically the guys who created jewel, Adam Bowen 901 00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:21,319 Speaker 1: and James Mondsey's. I met those guys ten years ago 902 00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:24,600 Speaker 1: because they had created packs which people were using for 903 00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:27,560 Speaker 1: for vaping um cannabis. Right. It was one of those 904 00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:29,440 Speaker 1: kind of heat not burn things. It wasn't an oil 905 00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:31,040 Speaker 1: at that point. It was something where you heated up 906 00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:34,120 Speaker 1: to cannabis to a point short of burning, so it 907 00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:36,520 Speaker 1: was a relatively less problematic way to consume it. And 908 00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:38,319 Speaker 1: I remember talking to those guys and not even fully 909 00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,080 Speaker 1: appreciated that they were working on this nicotine stuff that 910 00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:43,120 Speaker 1: was going to become their major business and then bring 911 00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:45,720 Speaker 1: them all sorts of grief. Right. But I was also 912 00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:47,840 Speaker 1: at visiting. I spoke a couple of years ago at 913 00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:51,319 Speaker 1: the Emerald Cup. It's one of these, uh cannabis conventions, 914 00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:54,720 Speaker 1: and I remember being struck. I went to a panel 915 00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:57,880 Speaker 1: on cannabis vaping and there was virtually no discussion of 916 00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:01,360 Speaker 1: the nicotine vaping and oftentimes here almost nothing about cannabis 917 00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:04,040 Speaker 1: when I go to the tobacco Harmony dunction things. Now 918 00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:07,719 Speaker 1: you're sitting in a more sophisticated place about this. Is 919 00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:11,160 Speaker 1: there a growing marriage between these two? I think there's 920 00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:15,160 Speaker 1: some crossover. I know of some different manufacturers that make 921 00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:17,040 Speaker 1: a liquid and then they also got into the hemp 922 00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:21,720 Speaker 1: space and they're you know, making different cannabioids and stuff 923 00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:23,839 Speaker 1: like that. Or there there's some people that you know, 924 00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:28,080 Speaker 1: ended up having their own cannabis farms. Um. I do 925 00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:32,320 Speaker 1: feel like, you know, nicotine has definitely become the outcast 926 00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:36,439 Speaker 1: of the drug world, and uh, you know, I think 927 00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:39,080 Speaker 1: a lot of people in marijuana kind of want to 928 00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:41,719 Speaker 1: to make sure they're separated from us because we've had 929 00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:45,600 Speaker 1: so much scrutiny over the last few years. But there's 930 00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:49,800 Speaker 1: there's definitely some cross over there. Well on the consumer side, 931 00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:54,759 Speaker 1: I mean, can one usually a jewel to vape cannabis oil? Well, 932 00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:57,320 Speaker 1: the thing is that cannabis oil is a lot thicker 933 00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:01,080 Speaker 1: than most eloquids. You could I've heard of people doing 934 00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:03,319 Speaker 1: that with the jewel, but it probably isn't gonna wig 935 00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:05,440 Speaker 1: very well, and you know you have to kind of 936 00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:07,480 Speaker 1: jury rig it and open it up, you know, crack 937 00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:09,520 Speaker 1: open the pod, which you're not supposed to do, and 938 00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:11,920 Speaker 1: try to fill it with that. So, while the products 939 00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:14,319 Speaker 1: are very similar and there is some crossover as far 940 00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:17,520 Speaker 1: as the atomizer goes, um usually they need to be 941 00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:21,279 Speaker 1: more specialized for a certain liquid. I mean, it looks 942 00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:24,440 Speaker 1: there's good reasons to avoid the marriage of these two industries. 943 00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:26,480 Speaker 1: You know. Buddy of mind, Steve Bloom, who's been a 944 00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:29,000 Speaker 1: journalist in the marijuana field for a long time for 945 00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:31,640 Speaker 1: High Times and now um for Celebrity Stone or I 946 00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:33,480 Speaker 1: think it's called, but he wrote an important piece. It's 947 00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:35,520 Speaker 1: almost a Maya culpa, he said. You know, he gave 948 00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:38,120 Speaker 1: a lot of publicity to the emergence of blunts, right, 949 00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:40,520 Speaker 1: of people hollowing out these kind of mani cigars and 950 00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:43,799 Speaker 1: filling them with cannabis or combining cannabis and tobacco in 951 00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:46,200 Speaker 1: a way, which was very common in Europe because people 952 00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:48,440 Speaker 1: would smoke cash there and they would roll it in tobacco, 953 00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:52,440 Speaker 1: but he was saying, hey, everybody stopped doing that because 954 00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:54,640 Speaker 1: there's you know, any number of people who mostly like 955 00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:58,279 Speaker 1: cannabis then started mixing it with tobacco and began to 956 00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:02,000 Speaker 1: develop a tobacco dependence that way. So let's keep these 957 00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:05,040 Speaker 1: worlds separate, you know, and let's not have people. We 958 00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:08,000 Speaker 1: don't want to see people vaping nicotine and cannabis together. 959 00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:11,040 Speaker 1: Not a good idea. And you know, you see in Canada, 960 00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:13,279 Speaker 1: where you have federal legalization, I think not just but 961 00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:16,319 Speaker 1: big alcohol, but even big tobacco have begun to buy 962 00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:19,920 Speaker 1: into the cannabis companies for all sorts of obvious reasons. 963 00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:22,120 Speaker 1: So I mean, do you think that this marriage or 964 00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:25,480 Speaker 1: merger between the two is sort of inevitable? Well, I mean, 965 00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:27,440 Speaker 1: I think you're talking about two different things here. Like 966 00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:31,800 Speaker 1: obviously there is it's problematic to mix nicotine and th 967 00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:35,280 Speaker 1: HD together because if it's a THD user that doesn't 968 00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:38,719 Speaker 1: have much experience with nicotine, they could potentially, uh, you know, 969 00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:42,319 Speaker 1: create a habit for that nicotine as first that, I 970 00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:46,480 Speaker 1: don't think that the two industries are ever going to merge. Yeah, Well, 971 00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:48,640 Speaker 1: I mean there's this other possibility of people talk about 972 00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:51,160 Speaker 1: what you already hearing reports of, which is people using 973 00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:55,760 Speaker 1: vaping devices to take not just cannabis or nicotine or CBD, 974 00:51:56,560 --> 00:52:00,319 Speaker 1: but even to begin to take other illicit drugs. And 975 00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:04,920 Speaker 1: there are obviously some significant benefits, especially to the extent 976 00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:08,120 Speaker 1: that the newer devices control the amount, right. So some 977 00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:10,319 Speaker 1: of the davating devices, I think, both in nicotine and 978 00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:12,759 Speaker 1: in the cannabis area, you know, they can limit how 979 00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:15,160 Speaker 1: much you're getting in each each puff, right, and they 980 00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:17,439 Speaker 1: can sometimes automatically turn off after you've taken a certain 981 00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:20,960 Speaker 1: number of puffs. So there's a harm reduction element to these, 982 00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:23,720 Speaker 1: not just in terms of getting rid of the smoked 983 00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:26,719 Speaker 1: and burnt matter, but also in terms of controlling and 984 00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:29,640 Speaker 1: keeping track of consumption. That could play a positive role. 985 00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:32,680 Speaker 1: Um yet, on the other hand, might make some of 986 00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:36,319 Speaker 1: these more risky illicit substances even more appealing. You have 987 00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:39,080 Speaker 1: you already, Yeah, I mean, I think I think some 988 00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:40,920 Speaker 1: of that is kind of you know, it's from the 989 00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:43,440 Speaker 1: same camp that tells people to be careful of Halloween 990 00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:45,840 Speaker 1: candy because it might be mixed with drugs or something. 991 00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:49,760 Speaker 1: So I think some of it is just kind of fearmongering. Um, 992 00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:52,880 Speaker 1: you know, I've I've never encountered people saying, hey, you know, 993 00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:55,840 Speaker 1: I got a th HC card off the street and 994 00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:58,319 Speaker 1: somebody puts some fentinel in there or something like that, 995 00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:02,160 Speaker 1: but I have her. And about scientists like you you, 996 00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:05,319 Speaker 1: I think you were alluding to talking about potentially using 997 00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:07,920 Speaker 1: vaping as harm reduction for some other drugs. So, like, 998 00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:11,719 Speaker 1: there was an article recently about, you know, somehow implementing 999 00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:15,120 Speaker 1: vaping into crack use, and could it potentially be a 1000 00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:19,520 Speaker 1: safer delivery method for crack users than you know, what 1001 00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:22,160 Speaker 1: they're using now. So I mean, there might be something 1002 00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:25,560 Speaker 1: to that, but obviously that's something that like shouldn't be 1003 00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:29,560 Speaker 1: something that just somebody's experimenting within their basement. Yeah, I mean, 1004 00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:31,160 Speaker 1: you know, when you talk about safer crack use, it's 1005 00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:33,160 Speaker 1: a real thing. I remember a couple of decades ago 1006 00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:35,279 Speaker 1: when we were doing grant making, and one of the 1007 00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:37,479 Speaker 1: things that some of the harm reduction projects were doing 1008 00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:40,560 Speaker 1: was giving out these little, um kind of rubber. I 1009 00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:43,359 Speaker 1: think it was rubber that that crack users could put 1010 00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:46,279 Speaker 1: on the pipe because one problem that people had with 1011 00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:49,640 Speaker 1: smoking crack, apart from the consequences of the crack itself 1012 00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:52,000 Speaker 1: was that the pipe, the crack pipe would heat up 1013 00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:55,000 Speaker 1: so much that they would burn their lips, and then 1014 00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:57,560 Speaker 1: the burnt lip would become a point of transmission for 1015 00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:00,600 Speaker 1: you know, sexually transmitted disease or other sorts of things. 1016 00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:02,799 Speaker 1: And so by putting a kind of you know, just 1017 00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:04,279 Speaker 1: like the way you put on a hot coffee cup 1018 00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:06,880 Speaker 1: something to keep it from burning your hand, the same idea, 1019 00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:10,239 Speaker 1: but one could actually see that working in this area. Well, look, Matt, 1020 00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:14,200 Speaker 1: last question here, Um, So the politics of this thing. 1021 00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:16,960 Speaker 1: You know, I've had the opportunity, because of my contact 1022 00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:19,799 Speaker 1: sometimes to give some of the Democratic politicians I know 1023 00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:24,560 Speaker 1: and earful about tobacco harm reduction, and it's clearly unwelcome 1024 00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:26,919 Speaker 1: knowledge to many of it. Many of them just don't 1025 00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:29,279 Speaker 1: even know better. They're going along with it. And we 1026 00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:31,600 Speaker 1: see this as a political issue where the Republicans are 1027 00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:34,760 Speaker 1: kind of mixed and divided, and some are anti vaping, 1028 00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:37,480 Speaker 1: but others are pro small business and others are pro 1029 00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:40,799 Speaker 1: individual rights and all this sort of stuff. Um But 1030 00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:44,799 Speaker 1: among the liberals and progressives, even Russwath of Democrats, you 1031 00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:48,760 Speaker 1: really see just this amazingly backward thinking. And I'm curious 1032 00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:53,040 Speaker 1: what's gonna change that right now? Um? You know, I 1033 00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:55,520 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, I mean you're in Montana. You 1034 00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:59,279 Speaker 1: know you still have Democratic politicians there. I mean, what's 1035 00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:01,720 Speaker 1: your sense is or any hope on the Democratic side 1036 00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:03,919 Speaker 1: for opening up their eyes on this stuff. I think 1037 00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:07,080 Speaker 1: there's hope. I've I've had conversations with quite a few 1038 00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:09,839 Speaker 1: staffers and politicians and a lot of them are very 1039 00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:12,960 Speaker 1: receptive behind closed doors, and they end up getting it. 1040 00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:15,920 Speaker 1: But you know, they don't word it this way. But 1041 00:55:16,160 --> 00:55:18,000 Speaker 1: the bottom line is is like, are you willing to 1042 00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:20,400 Speaker 1: stick your neck out and spend the political capital to 1043 00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:23,800 Speaker 1: stick up for vaping? You know what I'm saying? And 1044 00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:27,000 Speaker 1: and and so everyone's just kind of following along and 1045 00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:30,919 Speaker 1: they're keeping their mouth shut because there's no upside there 1046 00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:33,279 Speaker 1: for them. Yeah. I mean Dick Durbin, you know, I mean, 1047 00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:35,319 Speaker 1: he's you know, he's a deputy leader of the in 1048 00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:37,120 Speaker 1: the U. S. Senate. Good guy. I've been good on 1049 00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:39,560 Speaker 1: a lot of drug policy reform issues. But he stands 1050 00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:41,960 Speaker 1: up there and says, my parents died, you know, from smoking. 1051 00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:45,120 Speaker 1: That's why I'm against vaping. And I'm thinking, damn, I mean, 1052 00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:49,160 Speaker 1: my dad died prematurely, and his packet day habit almost 1053 00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:51,360 Speaker 1: certainly played a role in his premature death of the 1054 00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:54,400 Speaker 1: age of fifty eight. But for me, I imagine that 1055 00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:56,920 Speaker 1: there's a chance my dad might have been able to 1056 00:55:56,920 --> 00:56:00,839 Speaker 1: switch from cigarettes to vaping, and that might have significantly 1057 00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:04,279 Speaker 1: extended his life. So I'm kind of baffled by the 1058 00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:07,360 Speaker 1: Durbans of the world and and kind of piste off too. 1059 00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:10,399 Speaker 1: It does seem to me that when you have almost 1060 00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:14,239 Speaker 1: half a million Americans dying each year prematurely from long 1061 00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:17,480 Speaker 1: term smoking, and when we now have these sort of 1062 00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:23,320 Speaker 1: technological breakthrough innovations that can dramatically reduce those numbers. Um, 1063 00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:27,160 Speaker 1: this is an issue which you know, progressive Democrats, all Democrats, 1064 00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:30,200 Speaker 1: and any Republicans who still say they believe in science 1065 00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:33,319 Speaker 1: and in science driven policy, you know, just ultimately, well, 1066 00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:37,120 Speaker 1: let's not forget how stigmatized smokers people who smoke are. 1067 00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:39,759 Speaker 1: I mean, it's we don't talk about it often, but 1068 00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:43,080 Speaker 1: they are very stigmatized. And I think sometimes people have 1069 00:56:43,239 --> 00:56:46,240 Speaker 1: even more sympathy and empathy for someone when they overdose 1070 00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:49,240 Speaker 1: on another drug than a smoker dying from from lung cancer. 1071 00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:52,880 Speaker 1: It's a new permittive stigmatization. I mean, I'm in a 1072 00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:55,400 Speaker 1: world of illicit drug harmonduction, drug policy form where we 1073 00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:58,200 Speaker 1: talk about all the harms that result from stigmatization. But 1074 00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:00,640 Speaker 1: in a way, now people who moke and even to 1075 00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:02,920 Speaker 1: something extent, people who have vape, those are the people 1076 00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:06,440 Speaker 1: who it's now okay to stigmatize, okay to feel no 1077 00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:10,279 Speaker 1: compassion for. And people literally will make the argument, you know, 1078 00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:14,799 Speaker 1: better that five smokers die ten years prematurely than that 1079 00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:18,400 Speaker 1: one kid gets addicted to vaping nicotine and that sort 1080 00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:20,280 Speaker 1: of trade off. You know, in the same way that 1081 00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:22,520 Speaker 1: the war on drugs for a long time was justified 1082 00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:24,600 Speaker 1: as sort of one great big Child Protection Act. The 1083 00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:26,920 Speaker 1: reason we couldn't legalize medical meri wanta leaves wellize we 1084 00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:29,920 Speaker 1: couldn't medicalize, we couldn't legalize merri wana. More broadly, the 1085 00:57:29,960 --> 00:57:32,600 Speaker 1: reason we could allow needle exchange method on the locks 1086 00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:35,600 Speaker 1: on you name it. Well, I mean that's same. You know, 1087 00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:39,320 Speaker 1: the Great Big Child Protection Act is legitimizing, you know, 1088 00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:44,040 Speaker 1: allowing huge numbers of people to die who presumably, you know, 1089 00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:47,240 Speaker 1: you would think the decent minded, progressive, good Democrats would 1090 00:57:47,240 --> 00:57:51,120 Speaker 1: care about. Yeah, it's it's unfortunate. Well, It's been great 1091 00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:52,840 Speaker 1: catching up with you and talking about with you, and 1092 00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:55,000 Speaker 1: I really I think our our audience will have learned 1093 00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:57,360 Speaker 1: a lot from this. It's obviously a world that many 1094 00:57:57,400 --> 00:58:00,480 Speaker 1: people interested in drunk policy don't know about. UM. But 1095 00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:03,160 Speaker 1: it's a type of uh, you know, for a form 1096 00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:05,920 Speaker 1: of harm reduction that can save more lives than all 1097 00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:09,200 Speaker 1: the illicit drug harm reduction put together, so hopefully, I mean, 1098 00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:11,480 Speaker 1: one of the things I'm trying hard to do is 1099 00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:13,680 Speaker 1: to get more and more of my allies in illicit 1100 00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:16,560 Speaker 1: drug harm reduction and drug policy reform to embrace tobacco 1101 00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:19,080 Speaker 1: harm reduction as part of their agenda and to try 1102 00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:22,560 Speaker 1: to prioritize it, because many of them get the principles UM, 1103 00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:25,400 Speaker 1: but it's been a tough issue for them to fully embrace. Definitely, 1104 00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:27,360 Speaker 1: And thanks so much for having me on. And I know, 1105 00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:30,440 Speaker 1: you know, vapors have really appreciated you taking interest in 1106 00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:34,200 Speaker 1: this subject over the last few years. Psychoactive is a 1107 00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:37,960 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted 1108 00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:41,640 Speaker 1: by me Ethan Nadelman. It's produced by Katcha Kumkova and 1109 00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:46,120 Speaker 1: Ben Kibrick. The executive producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, 1110 00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:50,920 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronovski for Protozoa Pictures, Alex Williams 1111 00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:54,400 Speaker 1: and Matt Frederick for iHeart Radio, and me Ethan Nadelman. 1112 00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:58,320 Speaker 1: Our music is by Ari Blusian and especial thanks to 1113 00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:03,600 Speaker 1: Avivit Brio, Sep Yanka Grimshaw and Robert Beatty. If you'd 1114 00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:06,760 Speaker 1: like to share your own stories, comments or ideas, please 1115 00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:10,160 Speaker 1: leave us a message at eight three three seven seven 1116 00:59:10,280 --> 00:59:18,160 Speaker 1: nine sixty. That's one eight three three Psycho zero. You 1117 00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:22,160 Speaker 1: can also email us as psychoactive at protozoa dot com 1118 00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:24,920 Speaker 1: or find me on Twitter at Ethan natal Man. And 1119 00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:27,120 Speaker 1: if you couldn't keep track of all this, find the 1120 00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:32,880 Speaker 1: information in the show notes. Tune in next week for 1121 00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:36,760 Speaker 1: my conversation with Steven Jackson, one of the better ball 1122 00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:40,280 Speaker 1: players in the NBA for many years, outspoken about the 1123 00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:44,280 Speaker 1: issues of marijuana, sports and longtime friend of George Floyd. 1124 00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:46,840 Speaker 1: I went the long road to get to the NBA, 1125 00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:50,240 Speaker 1: you know, China for eighteen teams, breaking both on my feet, 1126 00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:52,320 Speaker 1: dealing with death to my older brother, and a lot 1127 00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:55,280 Speaker 1: of different things that can have you mentally disturbed, you know, 1128 00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:58,440 Speaker 1: and as a kid dealing with so much. The cannabis 1129 00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:01,480 Speaker 1: and basketball help me escapes. When I played basketball, I 1130 01:00:01,560 --> 01:00:03,640 Speaker 1: was able to escape from the world that what's going on. 1131 01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:05,280 Speaker 1: As soon as I leave the court, I'm back to 1132 01:00:05,280 --> 01:00:07,440 Speaker 1: the real world, where the only way I could escape 1133 01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:11,720 Speaker 1: and keep myself sane was cannabis. Subscribe to Cycleactive now 1134 01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:12,640 Speaker 1: see you don't miss it.