1 00:00:02,160 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: Ephemeral is production of iHeart three D audio. For full exposure, 2 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: listen with that phones. This episode of Ephemeral talks frankly 3 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:16,919 Speaker 1: about drug history, policy, study, and use. These views do 4 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: not necessarily represent those of iHeartMedia, Protozoa Pictures, or their 5 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: executives and employees, and should not be construed as medical 6 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: advice or encouragement to use any type of psychoactive substance. 7 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: Flow whooa always late, local tests, fired, phone calls, a 8 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: formal morning rund line rund run und doing drugs right 9 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: at your mind? Answer the question, brandom, you're doing drugs? 10 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 1: This exploration has led into a new and dangerous career. 11 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 1: Smoking rash, popping Manny's, shooting speed or dropping acid is 12 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 1: running one out there who still isn't clear about what 13 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: doing drugs does. Okay, last time, this is your brain, 14 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 1: This is drugs. This is your brain on drugs and 15 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 1: questions drugs, drugs, drugs. From pot to cot, alcohol to 16 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 1: adderall crack, cocaine to caffeinated coffee, almost all of us 17 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,680 Speaker 1: use one form of drug or another. And even though 18 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 1: there's a constant flow of drug commentary coursing through our 19 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: news media and entertainment. It can be an uncomfortable subject 20 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:42,399 Speaker 1: to talk about, amplified by the fact that rhetoric on 21 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: drugs can be difficult to trust. And that's a shame. 22 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: Oh man, they are so fascinating. Almost every department at 23 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: a university could have an entire course about drugs. If 24 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 1: you look in the social sciences, you could have of 25 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: course all about drugs, anthropology, in criminology, of political science, 26 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 1: and in sociology, and in history and in economics, all six. 27 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 1: In the arts, you could have it in music, you 28 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 1: could have it in literature, you could have it in 29 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: the visual arts. So you were talking about one of 30 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:22,079 Speaker 1: the great interdisciplinary subjects that exist out there. Hi, I'm 31 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 1: Ethan Nadelman. I've devoted most of my adult life to 32 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 1: working to end the war on drugs. Started off doing 33 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: that as a professor at Princeton and started an organization 34 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: called the Drug Policy Alliance, and gentleman looked up to 35 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 1: Ethan Nadelman, which became the leading organization of the world 36 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: advocating for an end to the war on drugs. And 37 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: then about four years ago I stopped doing that and 38 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: took a little time off, and now I've started my 39 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:55,799 Speaker 1: own podcast called Psychoactive. How much do you know about drugs? Well, 40 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 1: I'll tell you, Alex, I'm no expert on the sort 41 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 1: of biochemistry farm a college aspects of it, but apart 42 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: from that, I know a lot about drugs. I've been 43 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: reading and studying and talking to people and using drugs 44 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: for most of my adult life. I sometimes joke that 45 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: growing up Jewish, my first taste of alcohol was when 46 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 1: I was seven days old at my brists. I remember 47 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 1: being nine ten years old and going to synagogue on Saturday, 48 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 1: and at the end of services, they would lay out 49 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: the little mona chevits wine and these little tiny plastic cups. 50 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 1: My friends and I we would have a few of these, 51 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: and we knew if we had four or five of 52 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: them we would feel a little tipsy and maybe fall 53 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: asleep at lunch. And then there was the whole bar 54 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: Mitzvah scene when I was thirteen, where we all started 55 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: getting drunk. We weren't supposed to, but you know, we'd 56 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:51,119 Speaker 1: be drinking Vika tonics with screwdrivers. In the Jewish community 57 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: in a suburb of New York, basically most people drank, 58 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: but I don't remember anybody who would drink to excess 59 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: the most powerful drug education I remember getting. I must 60 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: have been in junior high school. It was actually an 61 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: anti smoking set. The Surgeon General has determined a cigarette 62 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: smoking is dangerous to your health. They brought in one 63 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 1: of those fake lungs is a machine, and they connected 64 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:22,280 Speaker 1: a cigarette to it and showed what happened to the 65 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 1: stake long when it got all yellow and disgusting. One 66 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: thing about this machine, it will never get heart disease 67 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: or cancer from smoking. But when it came to the 68 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: other anti drug stuff, I gotta admit I don't have 69 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 1: any recollection if they even did it back in the 70 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: late sixties early seventies. They must have, but I don't recall. 71 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 1: With marijuana, I remember being about seventeen and seeing a 72 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 1: bunch of my friends who were getting high and just 73 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: noticing they all kind of fell asleep. So that was 74 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 1: not that appealing, So it wasn't really I started college, 75 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 1: and I distinctly remember the first off getting high there. 76 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 1: I was moving from one apartment to another. The marijuana 77 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 1: is coming on and we're moving a refrigerator, and you know, 78 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 1: the whole thing starts to become eighteen year olds laughing 79 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: and almost dropping a refrigerator down a flight of stairs. 80 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:16,600 Speaker 1: So that was the start, and then I became a 81 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:20,480 Speaker 1: regular marijuana consumer, but never a daily user. Had a 82 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: kind of almost anti addictive personality where you hear a 83 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 1: lot in the context of drugs, And indeed, the title 84 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:35,599 Speaker 1: of Ethan's podcast is psychoactive basically means mind altering. You 85 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: think there's a whole host of drugs. The drug I 86 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 1: take every day I deal with my cholesterol that's not psychoactive. 87 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:47,039 Speaker 1: Psychoactive suggests that and somehow it's altering consciousness. Now, that 88 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 1: could be in obvious ways, like psychedelics or like with cannabis, 89 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: but it could even be true of things like coffee 90 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: and tobacco, where when we consume them we're somewhat aware 91 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: of their subtle psychoactive effects, but we don't really notice 92 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 1: them until we stopped doing that. The single most common 93 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: one is caffeine. Something like the world consumes caffeine, either 94 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 1: in the form of coffee or tea or some other 95 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:24,719 Speaker 1: plant products that contain it. Probably the second most universalist alcohol. Obviously, 96 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 1: there are prohibitions on it in the Islamic world, but 97 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:31,279 Speaker 1: generally speaking, it's a fairly universal thing. And if you 98 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:36,039 Speaker 1: go back historically, you have indigenous groups all around the 99 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: world having no contact with outer societies that somehow figured 100 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: out that that piece of food or that thing, if 101 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: left to ferment and then consumed, would have quite a 102 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: bank Marijuana has a history going back ten thousand years, 103 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 1: but it's not been as universally used. And then, of 104 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 1: course tobacco one came out of the Americas and made 105 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: its way to Europe and then to the rest of 106 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:07,719 Speaker 1: the world, and because it was so remarkably addictive, really 107 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:13,239 Speaker 1: got a kind of global use. So I would probably 108 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 1: say caffeine's first alcohol, second tobacco products, third cannabis for 109 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: oi and that heroin morphine other pharmaceutical opioids that are 110 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 1: made from it would probably be in fifth place. Then 111 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 1: you work your way down and a whole lot of 112 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 1: other things that may be used by tens or hundreds 113 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: of millions of people, like cot or cava from South Pacific, 114 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 1: or beetle nut used in South Asia, so there are 115 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: more localized ones that haven't sort of spread around the world. 116 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: One of the most traditional, if sometimes over exaggerated, applications 117 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: of psychoactive substances is to stimulate one's creative mind. I 118 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 1: know people who are artists and find the Meryl want 119 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: it really does help them on the creative side. On 120 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 1: the end they hand. I'll tell you when it comes 121 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: to the intellectual stuff, I'll beginning all these great ideas, 122 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: they don't seem as such value the next day when 123 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: looked at in the light of day when I'm straight interesting. Though, 124 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: with psychedelics, there are insights that I've had on doing 125 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: those the psychedelics that were almost life transformative for me, 126 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 1: and I'm more likely to remember it coherently in a 127 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: way as well. You think about some of the famous people, 128 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: I mean the Nobel Prize winners, the jobs and others 129 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: who say that but for psychedelics, they never would have 130 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: invented with the invented or discovered what they discovered. And 131 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: you don't hear that as often with marijuana or any 132 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: other drug. You know, there have been indigenous people's using 133 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: these drugs throughout history. Ayahuasca, mushrooms, payot or mescaline, the toura, 134 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: the plant which can be actually deadly poisonous, but in 135 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: minimal doses can be a very high at least psychedelic 136 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 1: type of drug l s D where the key ingredient 137 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 1: or good comes from a mold. There are histories in 138 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: Europe of these outbreaks of the town going crazy, and 139 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:16,599 Speaker 1: it appears to be when this mold took off in 140 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 1: the local wheat or rye fields. Albert Hoffman sort of 141 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 1: accidentally invents ls be protectively and then that thing has 142 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: its kind of heyday in the fifties and sixties, first 143 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:37,199 Speaker 1: among the sort of elite strata, and then Timothy Learry 144 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: turn on tune and drop out, drop out of becomes 145 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: the thing used by millions, drop out of junior executive. 146 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:50,439 Speaker 1: Many people benefit enormously, other people just do it for yucks, 147 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: and some minority of people get really hurt by this. 148 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:57,439 Speaker 1: And then you go into the kind of quiet age 149 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 1: of psychedelics, and I say, now we are in this period, 150 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:06,079 Speaker 1: an extraordinary period in the history of human beings and drugs, 151 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 1: where we're having this sort of psychedelic renaissance. Part of 152 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: it is because of the work of organizations like MAPS, 153 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: the Multidiscipinary Association of Psychedelic Studies created by Mike Buddy 154 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:21,439 Speaker 1: Rick Doblin back in the eighties. Psychedelics, when used wisely, 155 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:25,839 Speaker 1: have the potential to help heal us help inspire us 156 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,439 Speaker 1: and perhaps even to help save us. Part of it 157 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 1: because of a range of academics that have just kept 158 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 1: pushing to get this going. Part of it because Michael 159 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 1: pollan sort of breakthrough book, Changing Your Mind. What happened 160 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:41,080 Speaker 1: to psychedelics in the sixties that they became so stigmatized 161 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: that research stopped. Now you have all these companies trying 162 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: to create new psychedelic products. So you have this sort 163 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: of psychedelic renaissance where the media is mostly focused on 164 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 1: the upside layout the case for legalization of psychedelics and 165 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 1: and why this is an opportunity of investors. We're used 166 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: numbers of people are having positive experiences where people understand 167 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 1: the significance of setting like using these drugs in the 168 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 1: right type of environment. So I think we're probably in 169 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 1: a period in history where more people are using these 170 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: things than ever before. And I also expect that there's 171 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: gonna be some tragedies. There are going to be some 172 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: people who get hurt. The media is gonna jump on that, 173 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 1: We're gonna start to see the pendulum swing backward. But 174 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 1: I think there's a level of consciousness and awareness and 175 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 1: acceptance and normalization happening both with cannabis and with psychedelics. Now, 176 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: unlike anything we've seen before, medical use of psychoactive drugs 177 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 1: can be rife with complications. Take for example, the array 178 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 1: of pharmaceuticals derived from the opium plant. In the United States, 179 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 1: our medical system prescribes opioids, so most people have had 180 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 1: some form of opioid in their life. We come out 181 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 1: of getting our wisdom, teeth removes, we come out of 182 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:09,439 Speaker 1: some minor surgery, so the doctor may prescribe like an oxycodon. 183 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 1: Go to place like Japan, I think, where it's very low. 184 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: You go to parts of the developing world where it's 185 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: under prescribed and many people die in pain. Opioids one 186 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:24,839 Speaker 1: of these things where interestingly, if you have access even 187 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 1: to heroin, to pharmaceutical grade heroine, and you know the 188 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 1: dose and you're using the same dose, you can basically 189 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 1: consume heroin every day of your adult life and live 190 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 1: to be years old. You can have a job, you 191 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: can have sex with your partner, you can drive a car. 192 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: You can do it all because your body develops a 193 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 1: certain tolerance. If you stop using it, you'll feel sick 194 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 1: and feverish or even worse. While your body goes to 195 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 1: a racking withdrawal of it. But the fact that there is, 196 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: if you have a reliable dose, the worst side effect 197 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:06,959 Speaker 1: oftentimes it's instipatient. When you combine heroin with alcohol or 198 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: with a benzodiazepine type drug, in modest amounts, it can 199 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 1: be a really great high. But the problem is if 200 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:19,599 Speaker 1: you double or triple that dose, you stop breathing. We 201 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: think about people dying give an alcohol overdose, but the 202 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 1: deadly thing is that alcohol is oftentimes the hidden thing 203 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: that's causing an overdose with another drug where the media 204 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:33,319 Speaker 1: headline says heroin, but it was actually heroin plus booze. 205 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 1: And it was only with the recent emergence of ventonyl 206 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 1: taking the opioid epidemic to a new level of urgency. 207 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 1: This synthetic opioid that's fifty times more powerful than heroin, 208 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 1: Graham prograam. That's the first opioid where people just take 209 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 1: it all by itself and they can just stop breathing. 210 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 1: You know, with marijuana, you can have fifty times the 211 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: amount you need to get a hundred times and it's 212 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: not going to kill you. It appears that if you're 213 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:08,439 Speaker 1: on an opioid prescription and you combine it with Marriwana, 214 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 1: you can cut your prescribed dose in half just by 215 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 1: having a little bit of marijuana with it, because the 216 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 1: marijuana potentiates it. There's a bunch of research studies out 217 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 1: there that showed that in states that are approved medical marijuana, 218 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: they appear to have lower overdose rates than did other 219 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: places because people were either substituting the marijuana for the 220 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: opioids for pain relief, or they were combining it with 221 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 1: the opioid and therefore taking less of the opioid because 222 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 1: they didn't need as much. I know, I get totally 223 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: lost on it, but I didn't want to ask about 224 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 1: opium classic you know, smokable opium, you know, like I 225 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 1: feel like I see most of like media with like 226 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 1: opium then and I imagine it was a scene in 227 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: the US at some point, and it's not really anymore. Well, 228 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 1: I'll tell you. I mean, I feel I've been a 229 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 1: bit professionally negligent and never having actually smoked opium. I mean, 230 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: it's on my two do list, my bucket list. You know, 231 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 1: I got to do this if I'm really going to 232 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: be a serious, you know person talking about drugs. But 233 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: by and large. The opium dent was a common thing 234 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: in Asia, and then it came to America when people 235 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: came from China in the middle of late nineteenth century. 236 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 1: They then became incredibly demonizes. The first opium prohibition laws 237 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: were in the eighteen seventies and eighties in the Data 238 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: and in California, very racist laws, and the fear that 239 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: the Chinese were basically addicting and seducing and turning white 240 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 1: women into sex slaves. Works wonders. When heroin gets invented, 241 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: actually by Bear Pharmaceutical as a cost sur president, what 242 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: happened was you had a some of the switch going 243 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: on from opium to heroin, and then people begin to 244 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: realize that if you want to smuggle this stuff, it's 245 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: a lot safer to smuggle a white powder like heroin 246 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: than it is to smuggle opium. And if you want 247 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: to consume it, opium gives off a distinct a roma, 248 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: whereas heroin, especially if you're injecting and not smoking, it 249 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 1: no aroma, so it's easier to hide from the cops. 250 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 1: It's what we call the perverse consequences of prohibition, where 251 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: when you prohibit a drug like opium or coca or 252 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: some other things like that. People tend to say, Okay, 253 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 1: let's synthesize it, let's make it easier to smuggle, easier 254 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 1: to consume discreetly, and we push people away from the 255 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 1: less dangerous, more natural plant product towards a much more 256 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 1: compact and potent version. And that brings us to one 257 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: of the most controversial polemics about mind altering substances. That 258 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: for decades, the US and by extension, the world, has 259 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 1: been waging a war on drugs. America's public enemy Number 260 00:16:55,840 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 1: one in the United States is drug abuse. Nixon declared 261 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 1: a war on drugs fifty years ago. In order to 262 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 1: fight and defeat this enemy, it is necessary to wage 263 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 1: a new all out offensive. That rhetoric, those ideas, the 264 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:17,199 Speaker 1: huge growth in the enforcement agencies, and then it kind 265 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 1: of quieted down during the Jimmy Carter days when you 266 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,439 Speaker 1: actually had a fairly progressive mindset for a few years. 267 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 1: Then Reagan and that Reagan generation pushed it to the max, 268 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: making a final commitment not to tolerate drugs by anyone, anytime, 269 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:39,399 Speaker 1: any place. And unfortunately it was very much of a 270 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:42,639 Speaker 1: bipartisan effort. I mean, Tip O'Neill the very famous influential 271 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 1: Democratic Speaker of the House, Liberal Democrat Massachusetts. He was 272 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 1: totally on board the war on drugs too. You know, 273 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 1: you look a little like Tip O'Neill. Mhm. A lot 274 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: of people say that then under the first George Bush 275 00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: took off like crazy. All of us agree that the 276 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:04,119 Speaker 1: this domestic threat facing our nation today is drugs. The 277 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: first drugs are was a guy named William Bennett say 278 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 1: the War on drugs was a failure. It was not. 279 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:12,360 Speaker 1: It was not, It was not who really was masterful 280 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:17,360 Speaker 1: at advancing a right wing, reactionary political agenda in America 281 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:21,120 Speaker 1: by playing on the fears around drugs among middle class 282 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,640 Speaker 1: American parents. Talk to your kids about Office of Drugs. 283 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: Help your children to just say no. But you know, 284 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: the truth is you can go back to the refor 285 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 1: madness days of the third mat Juana, the burning weed, 286 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,920 Speaker 1: with its roots in Hell. In this film you will 287 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 1: see the ease with which this vicious plan can be 288 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: grown in your neighbor's yard, ruled into harmless looking cigarettes 289 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: hidden in an innocent shoe. Some people say that what 290 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: brought us alcohol prohibition was the War on drugs, but 291 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: it was focused on alcohol Americans praise passing of the 292 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 1: dry law and then promptly perceived by every possible means 293 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 1: to repeat eighteenth Amendment. You can go back even further 294 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,439 Speaker 1: in history and see other war on drugs happening in 295 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,479 Speaker 1: other parts of the world. There were times in Europe 296 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: when there were efforts to crack down tobacco. China launched 297 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: its own warrn opium in the nationalist phase in only 298 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 1: twentieth century. If you look at what's going on the 299 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: Philippines right now, in some other Asian countries, they have 300 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:26,679 Speaker 1: sometimes vicious wars on drugs. They don't exceed ours in 301 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 1: terms of mass incarceration, but in terms of the brutality 302 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 1: and authorizing police to conduct extrajudicial killings the President of 303 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,119 Speaker 1: the Philippines do to day. He gave his cops a 304 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 1: green light to just go and shoot people. So wars 305 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 1: on drugs are not uniquely American phenomenon, but the United 306 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 1: States took it the furthest in terms of mass incarceration. 307 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:53,880 Speaker 1: We also had our kind of prohibitionists abstinence only mentality, 308 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:58,399 Speaker 1: and we became the chief proselytizer and promoter of global 309 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 1: drug prohibition from the early twentieth century until the early 310 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:06,880 Speaker 1: years of the Obama administration. Substance abuse generally legal and illegal. 311 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: There's a problem locking somebody up for twenty years. It 312 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 1: is probably not the best strategy. Domestically, the issue has 313 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: oftentimes been tied up with race. If you ask why 314 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:22,120 Speaker 1: are some drugs legal and other drugs illegal, it has 315 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: relatively little to do with the relative dangers of drugs 316 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: and almost everything to do with who use it and 317 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 1: who is perceived to use particular drugs. So that connection 318 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:37,640 Speaker 1: in the American consciousness of drugs with black people, brown people, 319 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:41,160 Speaker 1: especially with Chinese people in the late nineteenth century, that's 320 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 1: always been a very prominent element. And that same racism 321 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 1: and discrimination based on ethnicity has played out not just 322 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: in the US but many other countries around the world 323 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:55,400 Speaker 1: as well. Because most of these drugs were being imported 324 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 1: from abroad, you saw that become a big issue in 325 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:01,440 Speaker 1: foreign policy met to cult for example, at one point 326 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 1: Nixon closed the border. It's become a big issue with 327 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 1: cocaine coming out of Olivia, Peru, oft times via Colombia 328 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:11,160 Speaker 1: and in Mexico. So it became a number one issue 329 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,359 Speaker 1: in our relationships with some of those countries. Sometimes there 330 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,160 Speaker 1: were countries like Paraguay where you basically had the narclas 331 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: takeover government. It was a complicated issue in Afghanistan. So 332 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 1: there's always been that international dimension where to appeal to 333 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: the renter if we've gotta stop drugs from coming into 334 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 1: this country. When it comes to keeping drugs away from kids, 335 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 1: people worry about, oh, we legalized marijuana for adults, more 336 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 1: kids are gonna be using it. But that was bullshit. 337 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,719 Speaker 1: Throughout the last fifty years, if you ask who's had 338 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: the best access to marijuana in America, it's always been 339 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 1: the kids, the adolescent. Even as marijuana he's went up 340 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:46,920 Speaker 1: and down, up and down, up and down, always eighty 341 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,400 Speaker 1: percent of high school kids. We're saying marijuana is easy 342 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 1: to get. And in fact, since we started legalizing marijuana, 343 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,640 Speaker 1: you know, beginning with Colorado Washington in twelve, there's been 344 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 1: almost no increase in analysts and marijuana use. The big 345 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 1: increase has been among people in their forties, fifties, sixties, seventies, 346 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 1: and eighties. The ones who did have access to it, 347 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:07,200 Speaker 1: the ones who because it was illegal, didn't want to 348 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:09,439 Speaker 1: use it. We're the ones where that you see a 349 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 1: double trippling quadrupling abuse. All of this begs the question 350 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 1: how effective is the war on drugs or has it 351 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 1: been effective at all? I mean, it's very hard to 352 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:29,639 Speaker 1: find any examples of success. Fifty years ago when most 353 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 1: heroin was coming from Turkey through what was called the 354 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:36,920 Speaker 1: French Connection into the US, and there was a period 355 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 1: when we were able to crack down on Turkey and 356 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 1: crack down the French connection, and there was a brief 357 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:44,399 Speaker 1: shortage of heroin in the US. Or there was another 358 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 1: moment when there was a laboratory in Mexico brucing FENTONYL 359 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 1: and d e A, and Mexican police succeeded in shutting 360 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 1: it down and that cut off the flow of ventinel briefly. 361 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,120 Speaker 1: But apart from a couple of rare examples, there are 362 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 1: thousands of cases of trying to reproduce their success and 363 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 1: failing simply because where there is a demand, there's going 364 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:08,440 Speaker 1: to be suppot and you crack down in one place, 365 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: it's gonna pop up somewhere else. You knock out disproduction area, 366 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 1: it's gonna pop in another production area. You pop out 367 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: of this drug traffic and you network that's gonna pop 368 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 1: in another drug trafficking network. You make it harder to 369 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 1: expert the stuff to us, and Americans are gonna start 370 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 1: producing and stuff you cracked down on nest labs in 371 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 1: the US Mexico, that's gonna step up. And of course 372 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:30,400 Speaker 1: it's ludicrous because our borders are so open that if 373 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 1: there were a market for heroin in this country of 374 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,120 Speaker 1: ten times what's currently coming in, it would come in. 375 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 1: There's no way to stop it. Not when you have 376 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,119 Speaker 1: endless numbers of shipping containers and boats and planes and 377 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: you name it, and people coming in. There's no way 378 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: to keep drugs out of the country. But it always 379 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 1: appealed to politicians sense of playing on people's fears around 380 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,679 Speaker 1: what was coming in from abroad. I just think the 381 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 1: evidence of the drug war in terms of reducing the 382 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: use of drugs or making them less of available, they've 383 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 1: made them less available than if they were fully legal. 384 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 1: But the negative consequences in terms of incarcerations, in terms 385 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 1: of now maybe one to one and a half trillion 386 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:13,880 Speaker 1: dollars wasted on the War on drugs over the last 387 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 1: fifty years, in terms of people using drugs that are 388 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 1: more dangerous because they come from the black market, in 389 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 1: terms of violations of civil liberties and human rights in 390 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 1: terms of empowering gangsters. Never Mind the millions and millions 391 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 1: and millions of people, disproportionately young men of color, who 392 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:30,880 Speaker 1: have been locked up and arrested and have their lives derailed. 393 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:33,159 Speaker 1: Never Mind the hundreds of thousands of people who have 394 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 1: been fired from their jobs for testing positive for marijuana use, 395 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:38,640 Speaker 1: even though it was having no impact on their job 396 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: performance at all. America was profoundly irrational around drugs, and 397 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: much the same way we were with alcohol prohibition. We 398 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:51,199 Speaker 1: understood that these drugs could be problematic and dangerous. We 399 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 1: then made this silly assumption that if we banned them, 400 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,640 Speaker 1: the problem would go away, maybe reducing the number of consumers, 401 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: but dramatically increasing the broad or set of problems that resulted. So, 402 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:07,440 Speaker 1: if you can't stop drugs from being made, bought, shipped, 403 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 1: or consumed, and the battle for those efforts is just 404 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,120 Speaker 1: as costly as any war with no end in sight, 405 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:27,919 Speaker 1: what should we be doing instead? Re Educating people on 406 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 1: issues of drug regulation by separating political rhetoric from actual 407 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:36,200 Speaker 1: data was to become the subject of Ethan's life's work. 408 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:42,639 Speaker 1: In I finished my PhD, I got a job teaching 409 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 1: at Princeton Politics and Public Affairs, and interestingly, the dean 410 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 1: invited me to teach a class on drug policy there, 411 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 1: and then I wrote it three articles and as a 412 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 1: result I got catapulted into like these two bursts of 413 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: fifteen minutes of faith and tonight's great debate is the 414 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,639 Speaker 1: war on drugs of failure. We have eight hundred thousand 415 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:06,160 Speaker 1: Americans arrested last year simply for possessing a joint where 416 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 1: I was all over the national media, all over television 417 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: on the other side of this. Ethan Nathan, specialist today, 418 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 1: Ethan Nathan, thanks so much for joining us this morning. 419 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 1: Ethan Nadelman, Thanks very much for being here. Ethan Aedeman, 420 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 1: Welcome to Democracy Now. Ethan, it's a pleasure. Welcome to 421 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,439 Speaker 1: Freedom Watch. Ethan Nadelman, Welcome to our show. That was 422 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 1: only in my young thirties and I was speaking around 423 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:31,880 Speaker 1: the world and a major events. This feels like a 424 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 1: serious altered state of consciousness around But there was a 425 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 1: single moment that cemented it all for Ethan, a clarity 426 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,719 Speaker 1: about where he fit in this world of drug discourse. 427 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,199 Speaker 1: And it just so happened to come while he was 428 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 1: tripping I did mushrooms in nine for the first time 429 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 1: in seven years. It wasn't really an epiphany. It was 430 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: more a kind of realization that this was my calling 431 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:02,440 Speaker 1: in life to teach people about drugs, and that it 432 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 1: did not matter if I was going to stay in 433 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 1: academia or go into journalism or writing or politics or 434 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: run an advocacy organization. And out of the blue I 435 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,400 Speaker 1: got a phone call from a guy named George Soros, 436 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:21,920 Speaker 1: prominent financier who was not yet well known it He 437 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,400 Speaker 1: was interested in this issue, and we hit it off 438 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 1: and he said to me, well, look, I'm a busy man, 439 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:31,880 Speaker 1: but as substantial resources. So let's assume I want to 440 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,919 Speaker 1: empower you to accomplish our common objectives. George's instincts on 441 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 1: the issue are right. I then educated about harm reduction 442 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,640 Speaker 1: and needle exchange and medical neural want and all the issues, 443 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,879 Speaker 1: and we have formed an effective partnership which resulted in 444 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 1: my setting up this organization, first within this foundation and 445 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 1: then independently in what became the Drug Policy Alliance. I 446 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:57,639 Speaker 1: support the Drug Policy Alliance because it fosters debate on 447 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 1: drug policy. Because the world were under represents an extraordinary 448 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: violation of human rights, because whether you use drugs or not, 449 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 1: you deserve to be treated with respect, kindness, and dignity. 450 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,439 Speaker 1: The Drug Policy Alliance or d p A is a 451 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 1: New York based nonprofit that is still in existence today. 452 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 1: Ethan would serve as the organization's executive director. Initially, it 453 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 1: was just about putting out the ideas, but beginning around 454 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 1: we realized that there were a few issues were a 455 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 1: majority of Americans thought that the war on drugs had 456 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,359 Speaker 1: gone too far. One of those was that a majority 457 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: of Americans had come to believe that people who use 458 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 1: marijuana as a medicine with a doctor's recommendation should not 459 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 1: be treated as criminals. And the other was that most 460 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 1: Americans believed that if somebody got arrested for possessing any drug, 461 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 1: even heroin and meth amphetamine, and they had a drug 462 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 1: problem and they weren't violent, they should be given at 463 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,479 Speaker 1: least a few opportunities for drug treatment before they got 464 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 1: put away. And that gave us a foot in the 465 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 1: door to pass other ballot initiatives. Time to vote on 466 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: recreational marijuana is here, so we began to get much 467 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 1: more political, beginning in late es to see how do 468 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 1: we pass these reforms through the ballot initiative process, through 469 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 1: state legislation, through Congress, and then of course the public 470 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 1: education side, and bit by bit I built up the organization. 471 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 1: So when I stepped down that we're about seventy five 472 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: people working at Drug Policy Alliance. We had a budget 473 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 1: of or fifteen million, offices and about half a dozen 474 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 1: states around the country, some doing some work internationally as well. 475 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: Really saw myself as building not just an organization, but 476 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 1: really a political movement to end the war on drugs 477 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 1: and to promote alternatives that were grounded in science, compassion, health, 478 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: and human rights. Because issues around drugs are so complex. 479 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 1: Part of making the Drug Policy Alliance an effective resource 480 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: was keeping its objectives clear. I'd say one third of 481 00:29:56,320 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 1: our work focused on ending marijuana prohibition, first from article 482 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 1: and then more broadly. The second third focused on rolling 483 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 1: back the role of the War on drugs and mass incarceration, 484 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 1: and the last third focused on treating drug use and 485 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 1: addiction truly as a health issue, not a criminal issue. 486 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 1: It was basically those three things and seeing myself engaged 487 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 1: in sort of the first generation of a multi generational struggle. 488 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 1: The d p A also drew a diverse crowd of supporters, 489 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 1: each with their own agendas. I relished when I was 490 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 1: building drug policy alliance did have people coming from every perspective. 491 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 1: I could look at the audience and see in one 492 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 1: row there was a guy who had hemp leaves in 493 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: his hair. It was something for your couple. Next to 494 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 1: them was somebody who was anti marijuana, but anti incarceration. 495 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 1: I think a man working outdoors. She feels more like 496 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 1: a man. You can have a bottle of suns. Sitting 497 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 1: next to them was a guy who had been incarcerated 498 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: for fifteen years on a minor cocaine charge and now 499 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 1: comate dads. We can see that's not duck walk anymore. 500 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 1: Sitting next to them was a guy who's been a 501 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 1: law enforcement officer for twenty five years and realized the 502 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 1: drug war resute tile. I hate this job. I hate 503 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 1: this job, and I don't need it. Sitting next to 504 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 1: them would be a young woman from Vietnam who was 505 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 1: doing needle exchange programs and pushing in city. You're gonna 506 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 1: give it, You're gonna give the shot. Sitting next to 507 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:21,960 Speaker 1: them would be a person working for a labor union 508 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,920 Speaker 1: trying to persuade the labor unions to embrace marijuana legalization. 509 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 1: MR we have on this strike we wanted the minute 510 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 1: we started across this railroad car. Sitting next to them 511 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 1: would be somebody who's a leading psychedelics researcher. Like knocking 512 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 1: at the door with a brick. When the door is opened, 513 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 1: you don't carry the brick inside. Sitting next to them 514 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 1: would be somebody who was going from the coca growers 515 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 1: union in Latin America? Where did you get this stuff? 516 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 1: And for me, the challenge is how do you take 517 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 1: all of those people and understand that they are in 518 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 1: a common struggle. The line I used to use is 519 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 1: who are we did of Policy Alliance? Who are we 520 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 1: the drug policy reform movement? We're the people who love drugs, 521 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 1: we're the people who hate drugs, and we're the people 522 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 1: who don't give it damn about drugs. But every one 523 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 1: of us believe that the war on drugs is the 524 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,880 Speaker 1: wrong way to go, and that therefore what matters is 525 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 1: not your relationship to drugs, which might be fantastic or horrific. 526 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 1: It's about understanding that a punitive, criminalized, moralistic approach is 527 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 1: inevitably going to result in more harm than good, and 528 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 1: what we need is rationality, compassion, respect for human rights, 529 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 1: respect for science. Even though the vantage points on this 530 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 1: issue are innumerable, there's no point in preaching to the choir. 531 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 1: The really interesting conversations for me are sometimes with people 532 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: who may not fully share my set of values, who 533 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 1: are more instinctually conservative or don't agree with some of 534 00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:00,040 Speaker 1: the human rights elements, but they're open, and for me, 535 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 1: it's like, how do I get past their instinctive defenses 536 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 1: to try to open them up to seeing things in 537 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 1: a new way. You know, there's twenty percent of the 538 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 1: country which is just ideologically on the other side. They 539 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 1: move in, they're invested in it, But then there's a 540 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 1: big part of the country which is just part of 541 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: the conventional anti drug discourse. And the challenge therefore is 542 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 1: how do you bring him to a new way of thinking. 543 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 1: How do you get a parent whose kid died of 544 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 1: an overdose and whose first instinct is to just go 545 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 1: out and execute all the drug dealers, how do you 546 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 1: get them to understand that that's not going to solve 547 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 1: anything and there's another way to deal with this. How 548 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 1: do you get cops to understand why legalizing is actually 549 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 1: gonna be good not just for the broader society, but 550 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 1: from where they sit. One of my challenges is talking 551 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 1: to people in the marijuana psychedelics world and getting them 552 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: to understand that the same principles they bring to marijuana 553 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,080 Speaker 1: psychedelics also have to apply in some way to the 554 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 1: drugs like opioids and no antheta means not that we 555 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 1: would make them letally available in the same way, but 556 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,279 Speaker 1: that the principles around sovereignty of your own mind and 557 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:14,879 Speaker 1: body have to extend even to those growing The Drug 558 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,360 Speaker 1: Policy Alliance didn't leave a lot of time for much else. 559 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 1: A lot of my time was consumed with basically building 560 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 1: an organization. I used to write a lot in both 561 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,479 Speaker 1: academic and popular publications, but at some point my most 562 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,680 Speaker 1: creative writing goes and interacting with billionaires. So I'm trying 563 00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:35,880 Speaker 1: to raise money from the amount of time I was 564 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,360 Speaker 1: spend interacting with media I had to balance with running organization. 565 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 1: I could also only accept so many public speaking engagements, 566 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,399 Speaker 1: so there were the things that I decided to pull 567 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,319 Speaker 1: back from in order to build an organization and to 568 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:51,879 Speaker 1: empower young people so that they could becoming the next 569 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 1: generation of leaders in this area. In January, after more 570 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,160 Speaker 1: than two decades at the Helm, Ethan stepped down from 571 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 1: the dp AM. When I stopped bringing drug policy alliance, 572 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 1: I was just happy not to talk about drugs for 573 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 1: a while, because I was talking about drugs around the 574 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 1: clock forever and ever. I go on a vacation, start 575 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:16,359 Speaker 1: chatting with some people you meet and they say, oh, 576 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 1: what do you do? Instantly I'd be bla, la la 577 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 1: la la lah, you know, same thing over and over again. 578 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 1: So it was nice to just kind of shut up 579 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: for a while, and so retired. Ethan took a turn 580 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:33,360 Speaker 1: living the quiet life until one day he got a 581 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 1: call from a filmmaker friend of his. When Darren Aronovski 582 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 1: first reached out to me, he asked me if I 583 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,400 Speaker 1: want to do a podcast at psychedelics, and my response 584 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 1: was nope, I want to do it on all drugs. Psychoactive, 585 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:53,400 Speaker 1: which debuted in July, features one on one interviews with 586 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 1: leading minds from across the ideological spectrum and frank discussions 587 00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:02,920 Speaker 1: about drugs, from signs to policy, and even stories of 588 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,960 Speaker 1: personal drug use. The thing about the podcast was it 589 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:09,799 Speaker 1: gave me a reason to re engage with the whole 590 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 1: issue of drugs and drug policy. So it's given me 591 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 1: a reason to touch base again with people who I missed, 592 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:16,920 Speaker 1: and I like, you know, I can talk with the 593 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,880 Speaker 1: former president of Columbia. President Santo's welcome. Thank you so 594 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,879 Speaker 1: much for joining me. Thank you, and I'm very very 595 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 1: glad to be here with you. But I've known him 596 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 1: since two thousand and twelve and not with him when 597 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:32,680 Speaker 1: he was president. One of the challenges is are they 598 00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 1: gonna peet the people who want to tune in one 599 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,799 Speaker 1: week to hear about the latest and psychedelics research, the 600 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:41,320 Speaker 1: next week about the overdose problem, the next week about Afghanistan, 601 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 1: the next week about the latest book by Michael Pollan, 602 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 1: And that's what we're gonna see. Will it be an 603 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:48,920 Speaker 1: audience where the common link is it's me as a 604 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,239 Speaker 1: host PSYCHOEDDI drugs the subject, But that's going to cover 605 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:57,440 Speaker 1: incredibly wide spectrum of issues. I got one more question. 606 00:36:57,480 --> 00:36:59,919 Speaker 1: I know You've been asked this before, but I said, 607 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:01,680 Speaker 1: feel like I need to, Like, I mean, what is 608 00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:03,759 Speaker 1: the upshot of it look like? Like? What's a better 609 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 1: world look like? What's a better America? Is that all 610 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,359 Speaker 1: drugs being legal? I mean, I think, first of all, 611 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:13,840 Speaker 1: simple possession of any substance for your own use should 612 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,400 Speaker 1: not be a crime, even if it's messa amphetamine, heroin, 613 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 1: some synthetic drugs. If you're only using it for your 614 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:24,560 Speaker 1: own use, it's a matter of personal freedom, human rights, sovereignty, civilibrities, 615 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:26,560 Speaker 1: you name it. None of the governor's business, none of 616 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,719 Speaker 1: my employer's business. That's that when it comes to how 617 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,360 Speaker 1: we make it available and whether we make it legally 618 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:34,759 Speaker 1: available over the counter, we need to come up with 619 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:39,319 Speaker 1: the balanced, sensible taxation policies, regulatory policies. But I think 620 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 1: ultimately it boils down to accepting that there's almost never 621 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:46,520 Speaker 1: been a drug free society in human history. There's certainly 622 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:48,920 Speaker 1: not going to be one in the future. And that's 623 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 1: the challenge is not how to get rid of drugs. 624 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,680 Speaker 1: It's not how to build a moat between drugs and ourselves, 625 00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,560 Speaker 1: or even between drugs and our children, because that's impossible. 626 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:01,440 Speaker 1: It's really how to learn how to live with these drugs, 627 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:04,240 Speaker 1: these plants and chemicals. So they call us the least 628 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,720 Speaker 1: possible harm and in many cases the greatest possible benefit, 629 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:12,200 Speaker 1: where we can turn what's been this kind of big crisis, 630 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:16,240 Speaker 1: ugly problem involving people dying of overdose and vast numbers 631 00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:20,120 Speaker 1: of people getting arrested incarcerated into a small problem, whereas 632 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:23,160 Speaker 1: people still get hurt, but not as severely or as 633 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:25,759 Speaker 1: frequently as they do now, and where people still go 634 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,560 Speaker 1: to jail because they're not obeying the rules around legally 635 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 1: regulated markets, but if they do, it's a much smaller 636 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:35,200 Speaker 1: number and not for so long. Where we have honest 637 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,719 Speaker 1: drug education, where young people learn that there's no such 638 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:40,480 Speaker 1: thing as a good or bad drugs, they're only good 639 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 1: or bad relationships with drugs, and more responsible or less 640 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 1: responsible ways to use that say that, you know, the 641 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,000 Speaker 1: great blessing in life is to find a way to 642 00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:54,800 Speaker 1: get paid for something you're passionate about and then you 643 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,400 Speaker 1: enjoy doing. Not many people get that, but I looked 644 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,040 Speaker 1: into that by finding my only in an early age 645 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:04,239 Speaker 1: and effectively getting paid to do what I wanted to 646 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,239 Speaker 1: do with my life, whether it was my appreciation of 647 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,759 Speaker 1: marijuana or my anger at seeing people getting busted, or 648 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:28,520 Speaker 1: my mushroom trip or what have you. No regrets. This 649 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:31,440 Speaker 1: episode of Ephemeral was written an assembled by Max and 650 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:36,480 Speaker 1: Alex Williams, with producers Trevor Young and Matt Frederick Ethan 651 00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 1: Nadelman's weekly podcast is Psychoactive, a co production of iHeart 652 00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:46,480 Speaker 1: Radio and Darren Aronofsky's Protozoa Pictures. Find out wherever you 653 00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:50,959 Speaker 1: listen to podcasts and find us at e Fhemeral Dot Show. 654 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:55,520 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio 655 00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 1: Act Apple Podcasts. Wherever you listen to your favorite ships 656 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:05,240 Speaker 1: wo