WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 14 0:00:01.360 --> 0:00:04.360 Once the last time you took a time out. I'm 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:07.080 Ev Rodsky, author of the New York Times bestseller fair 0:00:07.120 --> 0:00:10.360 Play and Find Your Unicorn Space, activists on the gender 0:00:10.400 --> 0:00:14.040 division of labor, attorney and family mediator. And I'm doctor 0:00:14.160 --> 0:00:17.800 Addina Rukar, a Harvard physician and medical correspondent with an 0:00:17.800 --> 0:00:21.760 expertise in the science of stress, resilience, mental health, and burnout. 0:00:22.079 --> 0:00:24.960 We're so excited to share our podcast, time Out, a 0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:29.160 production of I Heart Podcasts and Hello Sunshine, repealing back 0:00:29.160 --> 0:00:31.760 the layers around why society makes it so easy to 0:00:31.800 --> 0:00:34.960 guard men's time like it's diamonds and treat women's time 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:38.760 like it's infinite, like sand. And so, whether you're partnered 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:41.159 with or without children, or in a career where you 0:00:41.200 --> 0:00:43.879 want more boundaries, this is the place for you for 0:00:43.960 --> 0:00:47.440 people of all family structures. So take this time out 0:00:47.520 --> 0:00:52.280 with us to learn, get inspired, and most importantly, reclaim 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:56.560 your time. Listen to Time Out, a fair Play podcast 0:00:56.800 --> 0:00:59.920 on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or We're 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:06.240 ever you get your podcasts. Conquer your New Year's resolutions 0:01:06.240 --> 0:01:09.759 with the Before Breakfast podcast, and each bite sized daily episode, 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:11.559 you'll learn how to make the most of your time 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:14.039 with practical tools to help you feel less busy and 0:01:14.080 --> 0:01:16.480 get more done. Listen to Before Breakfast on the i 0:01:16.560 --> 0:01:21.840 Heart Radio app for wherever you get your podcasts. The 0:01:21.959 --> 0:01:25.440 Gangster Chronicles podcast is a weekly conversation that revolves around 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:29.200 the underworld and criminals and entertainers to victims's crime and 0:01:29.319 --> 0:01:32.560 law enforcement. We cover all facets of the game. Gainst 0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:36.560 The Chronicles podcast doesn't glorify, promotilictit of activities. We just 0:01:36.560 --> 0:01:39.920 discussed the ramifications and repercussions of these activities because at 0:01:39.920 --> 0:01:42.440 the wall, if you played gamester games, you are ultimately 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:46.840 rewarded with Gainster prizes. Our Heart Radios number one for podcasts, 0:01:46.840 --> 0:01:49.240 but don't take our award for it. Find Against the 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:52.040 Chronicles podcast and my Heart Radio app or wherever you 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:56.720 get your podcast. Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I 0:01:56.760 --> 0:01:59.920 wanted to let you know this is a compiletion episode. 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:03.800 Every episode of the week that just happened is here 0:02:03.840 --> 0:02:07.760 in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:09.960 you to listen to in a long stretch if you want. 0:02:10.440 --> 0:02:12.520 If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:14.720 there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 0:02:14.760 --> 0:02:21.960 can make your own decisions. Welcome to it could happen 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:24.639 here a podcast about things falling apart, how they came 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:27.639 to be that way. I'm your host, Christopher Wong, and 0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:31.519 today we're doing part three of our series of Neoliberalism. 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:33.519 We're gonna start today with one of the most famous 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:39.080 episodes in history of neoliberalism, September eleventh coup against Salvator 0:02:39.120 --> 0:02:43.000 Allende was a democratic socialist of a type that has 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:46.600 broadly ceased to exist today. A committed Marxist to believe 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:48.959 that a class of society could be created by means 0:02:49.000 --> 0:02:53.040 of electoral democracy, he embarked on a campaign drastically more 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:56.400 radical than any modern socialist politician has done, more than 0:02:56.520 --> 0:03:00.080 dream of mass nationalizations, in an attempt to develop a 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:03.040 technical system that would allow the government to democratically plan 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:07.160 as much of the economy as humanly possible. In part, 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:10.359 his hand was forced by Chile's workers, who had embarked 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:13.840 on their own unsancitioned campaign of takeovers of minds and factories, 0:03:14.240 --> 0:03:16.519 which I Andy disapproved of and now sought to bring 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:20.000 under the national planning scheme. To do this, he brought 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:24.560 in British cybernetics theorist Stanford Beer, who embarked on an 0:03:24.600 --> 0:03:28.200 operation called Project Cybersen to collect and coordinate information between 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:31.800 various factories and allow democratic planning at the ground level 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:35.320 in a way that would allow stantaneous reaction to crises 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:38.200 and immediate changes in production levels and conditions inside the 0:03:38.240 --> 0:03:41.800 factories themselves to deal with them. All End for all 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:45.360 of s Barker's credentials was fiercely critical of the bureaucratization 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:47.920 of the U. S s R, and, in particular in 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:51.200 the economic sphere, the way its planning systems were essentially 0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:54.120 unable to react to local changes quickly in a context 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:58.320 where plans were only created every five years. Cybersen would 0:03:58.320 --> 0:04:00.880 solve these problems by workers participle patient at the factory 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:03.840 level and constant updated data flows to the planning office. 0:04:05.320 --> 0:04:08.400 As the project went on, Beer became progressively more radical. 0:04:09.160 --> 0:04:11.680 Strike by right wing truck workers backed by capitalists in 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:15.120 the CIA in nineteen two threatened to grind the nation 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:20.159 to a halt. In response, workers formed enormous coodonas industrialities 0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:23.960 or industrial belts to help self organized production and bypass 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:27.120 the striking right wing workers in coordination with the Andia's 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:29.720 government and a new cybers in control room. They were 0:04:29.720 --> 0:04:32.680 able to outmaneuver the strike and maintain production and distribution 0:04:32.720 --> 0:04:36.000 and nearly full capacity by tracking where goods were going 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:39.040 and where they needed to go along what roots. Beer 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:42.960 rapidly became convinced that quote the basic answer of cybernetics. 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:46.039 The question of how the system should be organized, is 0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:50.520 that it ought to organize itself, in essence, that cybersen 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:52.680 should be used to eliminate the bureaucracy in the state 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:57.360 entirely and allow workers to directly organize production themselves. Now, 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:01.680 Cybersen in theory is what the neillerbles claim, at least 0:05:01.680 --> 0:05:04.720 in public, to want, is an anti bureaucratic system that 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:07.120 uses the centralized control over the means of production to 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:10.600 combat totalitarianism and ensure that the state respects individual rights 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:14.080 and liberties. In fact, as if Vengi Monuos put it, 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:17.039 Pierre and Hayek knew each other. As Beer noted in 0:05:17.080 --> 0:05:20.160 his diary, Hayek even complimented him on his vision for 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:23.320 the cybernetic factory after Beer presented at a conference in 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:26.919 the nineteen sixty in Illinois. So, naturally, when the system 0:05:27.000 --> 0:05:29.960 was actually implemented, at least in part Chile. The new 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:32.200 liberal position was that every single person involved in the 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:35.880 entire economic exparment needed to be killed. Chile was put 0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:39.120 under economic blockade by the US and multinational corporations with 0:05:39.160 --> 0:05:43.200 full neilerable support, an ironic position given Milton Friedman, Hayek 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:46.799 and Rope case pure and absolute opposition to economic blockades 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:50.320 of South Africa Rhodesia to its eternal shame. The a 0:05:50.440 --> 0:05:53.120 f L c i O's American Institute for Free Labor 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:56.000 Development provided training and funds to the right wing unions 0:05:56.200 --> 0:05:59.359 that opposed the leftist government and others across Latin America. 0:06:00.240 --> 0:06:02.840 In Chile, working directly with the CIA, the a f 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:05.040 L c i OS organizations to train the right wing 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:07.800 truckers whose nineteen seventy two strike we've already discussed and 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:10.159 whose nineteen seventy three strike would pave the way for 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:14.960 Pinochet's coup. In many cases, organized labor, especially in the US, 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:18.560 but also in places like Italy, spent the seventies battling 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:22.400 their own left flank in defensive capital. Their reward for 0:06:22.400 --> 0:06:24.520 their service as was capital turning around and dutting them 0:06:24.560 --> 0:06:27.400 like a fish in the eighties, Allen two fought a 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:29.880 series of battles with this left flank, disarming the mass 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:32.000 workers assemblies that had formed in nineteen seventy two and 0:06:32.080 --> 0:06:34.880 could have saved him from the coup. The results was 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:38.200 the Other nine eleven, on which day in nineteen seventy three, 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:41.080 the military overthrew Allende and a coup, and Allende shot 0:06:41.120 --> 0:06:44.320 himself in the presidential palace. The man who would emerge 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:46.280 on the top of the power struggle in the military 0:06:46.320 --> 0:06:50.200 at the end of the coup was one Augusto Pinochet. Now. 0:06:50.360 --> 0:06:53.000 Pinochet from the beginning had the support of Chile's own 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:56.360 domestic neo liberals, of which they were a fairly large number. 0:06:56.960 --> 0:06:59.120 Upon taking power, he carried out what would become the 0:06:59.160 --> 0:07:03.719 standard neo liberal program, returning nationalized industries to the capitalists, 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:07.760 eliminating price controls, and increasing interest rates, But full scale 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:12.840 neoliberalism didn't come immediately. Inflation, which Pinochet had nominally in 0:07:12.960 --> 0:07:17.080 large part taken power to control, continued unabated, and in 0:07:17.160 --> 0:07:20.239 nineteen seventy four Milton Friedman arrived in Chile to argue 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:24.360 for neoliberal shock therapy, but it wasn't until Pinochet's desperation 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:26.040 from money drove him to the I m F that 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:29.560 he would fully embrace neoliberalism. Most of the world had 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:32.000 refused to do business with new dictatorial regime, with the 0:07:32.000 --> 0:07:35.239 exception of the U S and oddly enough Mao's China, 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:38.280 which poured money into the regime and Pinochet's personal pockets. 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:42.120 But that money was insufficient, and the I m F 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:44.520 was the only remaining body who would actually lend money 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:48.440 to Pinochet without any requirements on improving Chile's At this 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:51.840 point of Bismo human rights record, much of the full 0:07:51.880 --> 0:07:54.800 neoliberal turn that hit Chile in ninety five came from 0:07:54.840 --> 0:07:58.720 demands from the I m F itself, who demanded Conian 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:02.440 measures to control inflay. Here, Pinochet was aided by the 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:06.080 supporter of the neoliberals, whose legitimacy and academic standing allowed 0:08:06.080 --> 0:08:08.560 them to negotiate and secure favor from the I m F, 0:08:08.600 --> 0:08:11.840 which they had already begun to infiltrate. At this point, 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:15.520 the infamous Chicago Boys, economist trains at the University of 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:18.520 Chicago by Milton Freeman, were put in charge of the economy. 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:22.520 University of Chicago trained economist Sergio di Castro, known as 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:24.560 the Pinochet of the Economy was put in charge of 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:28.559 the Ministry of Economics. To Castro, privatized an enormous portion 0:08:28.600 --> 0:08:32.559 of the remaining profitable state industries, eliminated tariffs and implemented 0:08:32.559 --> 0:08:36.200 free trade policies, deregulated the finance sector, and eliminated any 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:39.440 remaining price controls. Chicago Boys would go on to do 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:42.199 things like privatizing the entire Chilean pension system with the 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:45.079 exception of the military, which is a good education of 0:08:45.160 --> 0:08:48.200 any as to what the regime thought the actual effects 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:53.120 of privatization would be. In ninety eight, Pinochet declared something 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:59.440 called the Seven Modernizations, with quote reforms in labor, education, health, 0:08:59.800 --> 0:09:04.199 regional decentralization, agriculture, and justice policy. The goal of these 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:07.920 reforms was to introduce the market into literally every aspect 0:09:07.960 --> 0:09:12.040 of society. Now in episode one, I've very briefly mentioned 0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:14.640 the Virginia School as one of the major schools of 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:19.040 deal liberalism. The Virginia School the people behind public choice theory. 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:22.480 Their thing is essentially taking the absolutely absurd set of 0:09:22.520 --> 0:09:26.880 beliefs Chicago School holds about people. Humans are all knowing, rational, 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:29.600 calculating gods, optimizing their behavior to get the most of 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:33.720 every single interaction to maximize the utility, and then applying 0:09:33.720 --> 0:09:36.200 it to political science and then literally every other field. 0:09:36.640 --> 0:09:39.040 If you've ever heard someone say there's no rational reason 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:42.240 to vote, because if you're a rational, self interested person, 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:44.600 the cost of voting outwighs that benefit because your vote 0:09:44.640 --> 0:09:47.760 only matters if a deciding one. Therefore, it's against your 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:50.280 interest to vote. That's the Virginia School and their public 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:55.480 choice theory bullshit at work. Pinochet's Seven Modernizations was an 0:09:55.520 --> 0:09:58.640 application of Virginia School doctrine to the entire Chilean state 0:09:58.679 --> 0:10:01.240 and as much as the siety he is humanly possible, 0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:04.079 with the goal of transforming it into a market. I'm 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:06.320 going to read a section from the Road to Mount 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:11.600 Pelion describing Virginia School titan James M. Buchanan's work. Quote 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:16.000 Ineffectual consequences in the political market place were blamed solely 0:10:16.000 --> 0:10:20.000 on the fallacies of political decision making. We can summarize 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:23.320 public choice as a theory of government failure end quote. 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:27.720 Buchanan delivered a highly abstract paper titled limited or Untitled 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:31.160 Democracy to the Montpellion Society in Vina del Mar in Chile, 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:35.320 which some constructed as a critique of the host country's 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:40.640 mobilization for action history. Buchanan stated that if limited democracy 0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:43.920 was a polity predisposed to disable a political market that 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:47.600 would otherwise promote the most efficient allocation of resources, the 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:50.080 only meaningful task of the government would be to deprive 0:10:50.280 --> 0:10:53.439 the polity of its ability to do so. Public choice 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:56.640 theory thus sought to limit democracy and deep politicize the 0:10:56.679 --> 0:10:59.480 state in order to enable unconstrained market forces to guide 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:03.080 human into action. Since the Pinochet regime was committed to 0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:07.760 using its governmental powers in precisely this manner, Buchanan's paper 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:10.640 provided theoretical support for the regime, even if it did 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:15.200 not openly endorsed the authoritarian rule. Buchanan, of course, would 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:17.559 spend a bunch of time doing lectures in Chile throughout 0:11:17.559 --> 0:11:20.920 Pinochet's icatorship, but he was not that regime's most vociferous 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:25.040 neoliberal supporter. That award goes to Frederick Hyak Chris Hiek 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:27.520 when asked about Chile, which had been to ninety eight 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:31.240 and that blessed with his approval, aedicatorship can restrict itself 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:34.320 in a educatorship which deliberately is restricting itself can be 0:11:34.360 --> 0:11:37.240 more liberal in its politics than a democratic assembly, which 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:41.320 has due limits. Chile's nineteen eighty constitution was drafted in 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:44.559 part by one of Hiak's friends. He has wrote Road 0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:48.199 Abount Pelion Again. The constitution was not only named after 0:11:48.320 --> 0:11:52.360 hias book The Constitution of Liberty, but also incorporated significant 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:56.000 elements of hias thinking. Above all, the Constitution placed a 0:11:56.040 --> 0:12:00.400 strong emphasis on a neoliberal understanding of freedom. Guzman version 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:04.120 of freedom is intrinsically connected to private property, free enterprise, 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:08.520 and individual rights. Individual freedom, in his interpretation, can only 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:12.720 evolve in a radical market order. The Constitution was dedicated 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:16.360 to guarantee such an order without constraining any economic activities. 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:19.920 In order to protect free market conditions and individual freedoms 0:12:19.960 --> 0:12:25.200 against totalitarian attacks or democratic interventions, the Constitution stipulated a 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:28.599 necessity of a strong central state authority to guarantee the 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:32.000 established rule of law, and thus, above all else is 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:37.120 hampered in the application of discretionary government power. Exempted were 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:40.120 measures to uphold the status quo, inasmuch as Goose Bond 0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:44.280 aggressively supported continuing the state of emergency, which legalized the 0:12:44.400 --> 0:12:47.760 use of whatever discretionary powers were deemed necessary. Quial opposition 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:52.160 that Folks is a high achi in constitution used the 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:55.319 state to murder any one wants democracy or God help them, 0:12:55.320 --> 0:12:58.600 wants to control the production their forced to serve every day. 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:02.400 Chile is near liberals voltron By combinding the power of 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:06.560 all four major schools of neoliberalism Chicago School Monetary and 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:11.120 Economic policy, Austrian School Constitutional order order, liberal reliance on 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:13.960 the international bureaucracy and legal institutions like the I m 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:17.120 F in order to promote a market economy, and Virginia 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:20.680 School public choice theory running the state, you get a neoliberal, 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:26.200 right wing military dictatorship. Now most conventional accounts of neoliberalism 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:30.760 will move from Chile to Reagan and Thatcher and next 0:13:30.800 --> 0:13:33.160 episode will cover the neoliberal kind of revolution in the 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:37.640 angle sphere. But focusing on purely national events gives a 0:13:37.640 --> 0:13:42.600 skewed perception of how neoliberalism actually spreads, and in order 0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:45.400 to correct that, we're going to look at Venezuela. I'm 0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:47.280 going to be drawing heavily here from the work of 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:50.440 the legendary Venezuelan anthropologist Fernando core and Neil in his 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:53.040 book The Magical State, which I highly recommend as one 0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:54.679 of the best things that are written about oil and 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:59.040 the Venezuelan state, so readers be warned. Chapter one is 0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:00.920 an absolute slow dog that, on the one hand, is 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:03.160 one of the most interesting explanations of what oiler rents 0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:06.680 are have ever encountered, but also features coroneal inventing a 0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:10.160 new trielectic and then stubbornly refusing to explain what it 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:13.400 is or literally anything about how it works. So read 0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:18.239 the Magical State skip chapter one now. The guiding principles 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:21.840 of the new mass capitalists, democratic parties and posted katorship. 0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:25.720 Venezuela since the nineties sixties had been developing sovereignty by 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:29.320 economic independence. The keystone of this project was an attempt 0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:31.120 to use the power of the state in new oil 0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:35.560 rents to develop an automotive industry. The project has sort 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:38.600 of stalled out from its origins in the sixties until 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:41.080 the rise of the G seventy seven Opeque Alliance in 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:44.720 ninet nineteen seventy four that we discussed last episode. In 0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:47.840 nineteen seventy five, Venezuela's Assembly passed a law that granted 0:14:47.880 --> 0:14:51.280 the president's special powers to speed up the developments of 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:55.880 the auto industry. Corn the auto industry in Venezuela. Corneal 0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:58.800 described it thus quote, The central goal was to have 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:02.800 the vehicle value, including the drive train, produced locally. By 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:06.640 nineteen eighty five. Major components would be produced by enterprises 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:08.920 having at least fifty one percent of their capital from 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:12.720 local private sources. Existing foreign companies would have to become 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:15.680 mixed or national firms in accord within day impact regulations 0:15:15.680 --> 0:15:19.120 if they wanted to benefit from the common market. Now, 0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:23.440 this plan is what's called industrial import substitution. Developing countries 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:26.520 would attempt to develop industries, in this case auto manufacturers 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:29.360 inside of a country to produce cars for internal consumption 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:32.680 instead of importing them from other countries. The other key 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:37.360 of this plan is the end Impact, an association of Bolivia, Columbia, Ecuador, 0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:41.080 Peru and Chile that was collaborating to develop a regional 0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:45.040 industrial economy, that we use local resources to build a 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:48.640 local industrial economy producing industrial goods made entirely inside of 0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:53.040 the countries themselves from their resources. Now, Venezuela joins the 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:55.880 pack in nineteen seventy three and Pinochet notably leaves in 0:15:55.920 --> 0:15:59.760 ninety seven. The key sticking points in this joint and 0:15:59.840 --> 0:16:03.320 day impact Venezuela attempt to build an auto industry was 0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:06.800 that Venezuela needed technology held by multinational corporations in order 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:10.520 to actually produce the vehicles. Multinational car companies were willing 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:12.240 to go ahead with the project to build cars in 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:14.440 Venezuela in the short term because they were hurting from 0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:16.520 the oil shock and thus were willing to help national 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:19.040 plans develop cars as long as they could use the 0:16:19.080 --> 0:16:21.120 parts to build their own cars with parts source from 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:24.440 around the world. And this is where the neoliberal defensive 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:27.840 intellectual property rights becomes extremely important, because the companies who 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:30.120 held the patents for the drive trains essentially had a 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:36.680 technological strangleholder for car development. Now, Venezuela conducted an extensive 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:40.360 bidding process for companies to make cars in Venezuela, but 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:43.960 the car companies essentially sabotaged it by submitting designs that 0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:46.800 failed specs. The result was a kind of political war 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:51.320 inside Venezuela and particularly inside the Venezuelan ruling class, between 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:56.920 national developments and international profits. The Venezuelan developmentalists needed a breakthrough. 0:16:57.560 --> 0:17:00.800 What they needed, in essence, was new international economic order 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:07.639 and its corporate regulations. Debt relief and technology transfers. Without them, 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:10.720 even a third World country like Venezuela, flush with oil 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:15.359 money was incapable of developing an industrial economy. But the 0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:19.240 new international economic order never came. All the G seven 0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:21.040 had to do in order to stop it was stall 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:24.280 the G seventy seven out until commodity power faded. The 0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:26.919 G seventy seven had to fundamentally change the structure of 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:29.480 the economy in order to allow them to industrialize before 0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:32.399 the sort of damocles hanging over all their heads the 0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:36.320 mounting Third World debt fell and decapitated them. The G 0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:39.040 seven strategy to outlast the seventy seven was to pull 0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:42.399 the various factions in the seventy seven apart, in particular 0:17:42.560 --> 0:17:46.280 pulling the moderate governments away from the radical wing OPEC 0:17:46.320 --> 0:17:49.800 and the African Socialists. They attacked OPEC by using Saudi 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:52.320 Arabia to undermine its unity, and attempted to peel the 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:55.960 so called less developed countries away from their alliance with 0:17:56.000 --> 0:17:58.720 OPEC with a promise of aid to patch up the 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:03.359 damage dealt by increased prices. Neither worked incredibly well, but 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:05.760 when combined with the US essentially shutting the U N 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:08.200 down by refusing to let any business get done, refusing 0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:13.359 to vote for or even vetoing routine matters. The stalling worked, 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:18.680 no new international economic order was forthcoming. Instead, the world 0:18:18.680 --> 0:18:23.440 would get neoliberalism. Neoliberalism arrived on the world stage in 0:18:23.480 --> 0:18:26.480 the form of the Vulcar Shock. In nineteen seventy nine, 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:29.040 Jimmy Carter appointed Paul Vulcar as the Chairman of the 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:31.359 Federal Reserve for the broad mandate to do whatever he 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:36.000 wanted to reduce inflation. Vulcar had become a disciple of monitorism, 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:38.399 a Freedman Night Chicago School belief about the role of 0:18:38.440 --> 0:18:41.040 the money supply in the economy, considered to be absolutely 0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:44.720 crank even by modern neoliberals. His solution, which became known 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:48.639 as the Vulcar Shock, was to increase interest rate. This 0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:51.480 essentially blew a crater in the American economy and immediately 0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:53.800 sent it into recession. And we'll get to Vulcar at 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:56.560 Reagan's efforts to destroy American labor in the next episode. 0:18:56.880 --> 0:18:59.600 But the damage to the Third World was even worse. 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:04.840 G seventy seven, governments had for decades taking on adjustable 0:19:04.920 --> 0:19:08.200 rate loans pegged to something called the libor rate. When 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:10.960 they took the loans out, interest rates were virtually negative, 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:14.680 but when the Vulgar shock hit, the skyrocketed. Now, as 0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:16.960 we talked about the last episode, a major part of 0:19:16.960 --> 0:19:19.600 the crisis of the seventies was enormous piles of oil money, 0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:22.720 mostly from the Gulf States, floating around that nobody could 0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:25.879 actually get returns on because of declining manufacturing profit rates. 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:29.320 This money wound up flowing back into the American finance system. 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:32.960 When capital controls are lifted nineteen seventy five, the banks 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:34.960 through the money at loans in the Third World. Now, 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:37.480 some of that money had been put into industrial development 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:39.600 that had yet to pay off. Some of the money 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:42.920 had simply been put directly into dictator's bank accounts. But 0:19:43.000 --> 0:19:45.199 the bank's essentially didn't care if the loans they were 0:19:45.240 --> 0:19:47.920 making had little to no chance of being repaid without 0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:51.840 some kind of structure reformed. Because in envy, control of 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:53.919 the I m F fell to an arch neo liberal 0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:57.679 name Jacquis de la Rossier. I really don't know if 0:19:57.680 --> 0:19:59.280 that's how he pronounce his name, but he is evil. 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:03.120 So neo liberals further took control of the World Bank 0:20:03.160 --> 0:20:06.280 in nine from the I M f and the World Bank. 0:20:06.359 --> 0:20:09.000 A secession of neo liberals enshrined the key principle of 0:20:09.000 --> 0:20:12.560 the new neoliberal order. Debtors must always pay back their debts. 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:16.000 Creditors would no longer assume risk for their loans. Instead, 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:19.240 loans would be repaid at gunpoint. This was no mere 0:20:19.280 --> 0:20:22.960 rhetorical slogan, as the G seventy seven imploded as a 0:20:23.000 --> 0:20:25.240 political body under the weight of hundreds of billions of 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:29.680 dollars of debt now with interest. Thomas Sankara, the socialist 0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:33.200 president of Burkina Fosso, attempted to rally its remains into 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:37.000 collectively negotiate debt relief. Sakara was promptly shot by a 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:40.560 former ally who accused him of threatening Burkina Fossil's relationship 0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:44.200 with France. With all resistance slaughtered, entire nations were reduced 0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:47.760 to debt servicing machines, as tax dollars were directed from health, education, 0:20:48.119 --> 0:20:51.520 and social security programs into the coffers of international banks, 0:20:52.040 --> 0:20:55.240 which used the newly neo liberal controlled International Monetary Fund 0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:59.440 as their enforcer. The anthropologist David Graeber described the consequence 0:20:59.480 --> 0:21:01.680 of one such I m F austerity program in debt 0:21:01.680 --> 0:21:05.560 the first five thousand years quote. For almost two years 0:21:05.560 --> 0:21:08.560 I had lived in the highlands of Madagascar. Shortly before 0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:11.199 I arrived, there had been an outbreak of malaria. It 0:21:11.240 --> 0:21:14.080 was a particularly virulent outbreak because malaria had been wiped 0:21:14.119 --> 0:21:17.560 out in Highlight Madagascar many years before, so that after 0:21:17.600 --> 0:21:20.440 a couple of generations, most people had lost their immunity. 0:21:20.800 --> 0:21:23.280 The problem was it took money to maintain those mosquito 0:21:23.400 --> 0:21:25.879 radication programs, since there had to be periodic tests to 0:21:25.880 --> 0:21:28.960 make sure mosquitoes weren't starting to breed again, and spraying 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:31.639 campaigns if it was discovered that they were not a 0:21:31.680 --> 0:21:35.360 lot of money. But owing to IMF and post austerity programs, 0:21:35.640 --> 0:21:38.840 the government had to cut the monitoring program. Ten thousand 0:21:38.920 --> 0:21:42.399 people died. I met young mothers grieving for lost children. 0:21:43.320 --> 0:21:44.760 One might think it would be hard to make a 0:21:44.840 --> 0:21:46.840 case that the loss of ten thou human lives is 0:21:46.880 --> 0:21:49.480 really justified in order to ensure that City Bank wouldn't 0:21:49.520 --> 0:21:51.680 have to cut his losses on one irresponsible loan that 0:21:51.760 --> 0:21:55.720 wasn't particularly important to its balance sheet anyways. Following the 0:21:55.800 --> 0:21:58.240 old old or liberal dream of a legal framework to 0:21:58.320 --> 0:22:02.600 ensure neoliberal market economies, the new generation of neoliberals used 0:22:02.600 --> 0:22:05.320 the I m F, World Bank and other bureacratic institutions 0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:09.080 to act as dead enforcers and the imposed neoliberal policies 0:22:09.080 --> 0:22:12.119 from above, without anything so petty as democracy interfering with it. 0:22:13.000 --> 0:22:15.800 In fact, one of the first neo liberal structural adjustments, 0:22:16.160 --> 0:22:18.520 one of a bewildering new array of terms for I 0:22:18.680 --> 0:22:21.800 m F and force austerity programs, was implemented by the 0:22:21.880 --> 0:22:26.359 Jamaican socialist Michael Manly in nineteen seventy seven, which in 0:22:26.400 --> 0:22:28.680 a single year wiped out every gain in education in 0:22:28.720 --> 0:22:31.280 public health that Madly had spent his first term building up. 0:22:32.119 --> 0:22:35.919 Similar faith would befall health, education, and justice programs across 0:22:35.960 --> 0:22:41.160 the world. The death toll remains unknown. Venezuela would fall 0:22:41.280 --> 0:22:45.680 victim to a similar fate. Without the new international Economic order, 0:22:45.920 --> 0:22:50.400 Venezuela's industrial policy imploded as post Volcra shock government debt 0:22:50.440 --> 0:22:54.200 skyrocketed in the nineteen eighties, the government began to impose 0:22:54.240 --> 0:22:58.440 ims structural adjustments. Carlos Andres Perez, the man who led 0:22:58.480 --> 0:23:00.760 the industrial push in the Nite and seven ins, was 0:23:00.840 --> 0:23:03.159 elected a second time in nineteen eighty nine, running a 0:23:03.240 --> 0:23:07.880 campaign that I've seen euphemistically described as quote against liberalization policy. 0:23:09.280 --> 0:23:13.080 It was somewhat more extreme than that, featuring lines such 0:23:13.119 --> 0:23:15.240 as calling the I m F quote a bomb that 0:23:15.359 --> 0:23:19.000 only kills people. But Perez was negotiating with the I 0:23:19.160 --> 0:23:21.359 m F behind the scenes and imposed even harsher I 0:23:21.480 --> 0:23:24.320 m F Asteria measures upon winning the election, leading to 0:23:24.400 --> 0:23:26.920 a mass uprising in nineteen eighty nine that was suppressed 0:23:26.960 --> 0:23:29.600 in a bath of blood, with hundreds killed by the army. 0:23:30.480 --> 0:23:33.240 But even more structural adjustments were imposed after Perez was 0:23:33.280 --> 0:23:38.480 deposed for corruption n implemented ironically by the founder of 0:23:38.560 --> 0:23:42.560 the Movement towards Socialism, Teodoro Petkof, the head of Venezuela's 0:23:42.560 --> 0:23:46.720 planning agency in nineteen ninety six. All of Venezuela's economic 0:23:46.760 --> 0:23:49.800 crisis from the nineteen eighties until now stem from the 0:23:49.840 --> 0:23:54.480 failures of nineteen seventies industrialization. Without any kind of industrial economy, 0:23:54.880 --> 0:23:57.359 even the socialists that took power in the nine A 0:23:57.440 --> 0:24:01.560 national level were reduced to shuffling oil and surround and 0:24:01.640 --> 0:24:04.159 with the market economy still in place, the economy is 0:24:04.200 --> 0:24:07.320 simply imploded again when the royal prices fell. This is 0:24:07.359 --> 0:24:11.600 how neoliberalism comes to most countries not as policies implemented 0:24:11.640 --> 0:24:14.040 by anything even remotely resembling the will of the people, 0:24:15.160 --> 0:24:17.960 but enforced by the international economic system itself and the 0:24:18.000 --> 0:24:20.440 bureaucrats the I m F, the World Bank, and the 0:24:20.520 --> 0:24:25.000 World Trade Organization. It is imposed by enormous states at gunpoints, 0:24:25.359 --> 0:24:27.960 constituted by the mass looting of the population in order 0:24:28.000 --> 0:24:32.000 to pay corporate debt. Masters new liberals have effectively achieved 0:24:32.080 --> 0:24:35.919 their goal and transcendent democratic politics entirely from their purchase 0:24:35.960 --> 0:24:38.680 in the international bureaucracy. They can dictate policy to even 0:24:38.720 --> 0:24:42.359 hostile leaders. But tomorrow we'll see what happens when they 0:24:42.359 --> 0:24:45.280 take power domestically. As we would conclude our Neoliberalism series 0:24:45.320 --> 0:24:48.719 with a man rotting in Hell with Paul Walker Ronald 0:24:48.800 --> 0:24:59.320 Reagan when P. T. Barnum's Great American Museum burned to 0:24:59.359 --> 0:25:02.040 the ground and eighteen six five what rose from its 0:25:02.080 --> 0:25:05.800 ashes would change the world. Welcome to Grim and Mild 0:25:05.880 --> 0:25:09.800 presents an ongoing journey into the strange, the unusual, and 0:25:09.880 --> 0:25:13.159 the fascinating. For our inaugural season, we'll be giving you 0:25:13.240 --> 0:25:17.119 a backstage tour of the always complex and often misunderstood 0:25:17.200 --> 0:25:21.080 cultural artifact that is the American side show, So come 0:25:21.119 --> 0:25:23.639 along as we visit the shadowy corners of the stage 0:25:23.960 --> 0:25:26.119 and learn about the people who were at the center 0:25:26.200 --> 0:25:28.760 of it all in a place where spectacle was king. 0:25:29.200 --> 0:25:32.200 We will soon discover there's always more to the story 0:25:32.440 --> 0:25:35.280 than meets the eye. So step right up and get 0:25:35.359 --> 0:25:38.720 in line. Listen to Grim and Mile Presents now on 0:25:38.840 --> 0:25:41.800 the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 0:25:42.080 --> 0:25:45.600 listen to podcasts. Learn more over at Grim and Mild 0:25:45.760 --> 0:25:53.120 dot com Slash Presents. I'm Jake Calbern, host of deep Cover. 0:25:53.440 --> 0:25:55.879 Our new season is about a lawyer who helped the 0:25:55.960 --> 0:26:00.879 mob run Chicago. We control the courts, We controlled absolutely everything. 0:26:01.760 --> 0:26:04.880 He brobed judges and even helped a hit man walk free, 0:26:05.440 --> 0:26:08.199 until one day when he started talking with the FBI 0:26:08.720 --> 0:26:12.040 and promised that he could take the mob down. I've 0:26:12.080 --> 0:26:14.080 spent the past year trying to figure out why he 0:26:14.200 --> 0:26:17.400 flipped and what he was really after. From my perspective, 0:26:17.600 --> 0:26:19.680 Bob was too good to be true. There's got to 0:26:19.720 --> 0:26:22.400 be something wrong with this. I wouldn't trust that guy. 0:26:22.760 --> 0:26:25.680 He looks like a little scum, big liar, stool pidgeon. 0:26:25.760 --> 0:26:28.000 He looked like what he was or at I can 0:26:28.080 --> 0:26:30.600 say with all certainty. I think he's a hero because 0:26:30.680 --> 0:26:32.159 he didn't have to do what he did, and he 0:26:32.240 --> 0:26:34.680 did it anyway. The moment I put the wire around 0:26:34.720 --> 0:26:37.879 the first time, my life was over. If it ever 0:26:38.000 --> 0:26:41.280 got out, they would kill me in a heartbeat. Listen 0:26:41.359 --> 0:26:44.240 to deep Cover on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 0:26:44.359 --> 0:26:50.359 or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Colleen with joined 0:26:50.400 --> 0:26:53.159 me the host of Eating Will Broke podcast. While I 0:26:53.240 --> 0:26:57.000 Eat a meal created by self made entrepreneurs, influencers and 0:26:57.160 --> 0:26:59.720 celebrities over a meal they once ate when they were broke. 0:27:00.000 --> 0:27:03.120 Today I have the lovely aj Crimson, the official Princess 0:27:03.280 --> 0:27:07.480 of compon, Asia Kidning and Assia. This is the professor. 0:27:07.640 --> 0:27:10.040 We're here on Eating While Broke and today I'm gonna 0:27:10.080 --> 0:27:12.800 break down my meal that got me through a time 0:27:12.840 --> 0:27:15.440 when I was broken. Listen to Eating While Broke on 0:27:15.520 --> 0:27:18.520 the I Heart Radio app, on Apple podcast or wherever 0:27:18.600 --> 0:27:28.160 you get your podcasts. Welcome to It Could Happen Here 0:27:28.240 --> 0:27:32.400 a show about things falling apart and is for one 0:27:32.520 --> 0:27:37.720 final time this week about why and how things have 0:27:37.840 --> 0:27:41.560 fallen apart in this specific way. Um, I'm I'm I'm 0:27:41.600 --> 0:27:47.359 your host Christopher and Today with Me, I have Garrison, Garrison, HELLU, 0:27:47.720 --> 0:27:51.560 how you doing. I'm doing fine. We're gonna talk about 0:27:51.560 --> 0:27:53.680 something that's not fine. It's not fine at all, is 0:27:53.720 --> 0:27:57.200 in fact extremely grim and bad, which is part four 0:27:57.240 --> 0:28:00.639 of our series of deal Liberalism, i e. All of 0:28:00.800 --> 0:28:04.240 the bad things happened at once, so in in in 0:28:04.560 --> 0:28:07.440 in all last episode we talked about how throughout throughout 0:28:07.440 --> 0:28:10.119 most of the Third World or you know what was 0:28:10.160 --> 0:28:12.560 at the time known as the Third World, new liberalism 0:28:13.640 --> 0:28:16.520 is not really imposed by people voting for it. It's 0:28:16.560 --> 0:28:21.080 mostly imposed by either external forces via coup or by 0:28:21.240 --> 0:28:23.680 just the I m F going okay, just we're running 0:28:23.680 --> 0:28:27.520 the country now, um, but this this, yeah, we're we're 0:28:27.520 --> 0:28:30.680 gonna shift our focus a bit this episode with the 0:28:30.720 --> 0:28:35.520 people who were I don't know, unfortunate enough, misguided enough, 0:28:35.960 --> 0:28:39.120 decided that they hated each other enough to actually choose 0:28:39.200 --> 0:28:43.480 neoliberalism for themselves. Now, one of the sort of stories 0:28:43.520 --> 0:28:45.600 we've been tracing here on sort of a very broad 0:28:45.840 --> 0:28:49.040 arc is the reaction by ne liberals to kind of 0:28:49.120 --> 0:28:51.040 kind of compromise it had been worked out between labor 0:28:51.120 --> 0:28:54.360 and capital, particularly the US after sort of the open 0:28:54.400 --> 0:28:58.000 class warfare in the reteen thirties, and you know, there's 0:28:58.040 --> 0:29:01.160 essentially this there's a kind of deal that's set up informally, 0:29:01.280 --> 0:29:06.600 which is so the we're working class will stop literally 0:29:06.720 --> 0:29:08.880 constantly going on strike and showing up the strikes with 0:29:09.000 --> 0:29:12.200 like enormous numbers of guns and shooting at people, and 0:29:12.440 --> 0:29:14.400 they will you know, stop trying to overshow the government 0:29:14.520 --> 0:29:17.000 in exchange, the state gives you welfare programs, the state 0:29:17.040 --> 0:29:18.520 will give you a house. And this is this is 0:29:18.560 --> 0:29:20.880 particularly after what we're too the Americans say it just 0:29:21.080 --> 0:29:23.720 you know, does this massive homeownersial campaign. And you know, 0:29:23.840 --> 0:29:25.440 if if you're if you're if you're you know, a 0:29:25.600 --> 0:29:28.880 union worker, particularly if you're a white man like this, this, 0:29:29.360 --> 0:29:31.440 you know, working working, working one of these union jobs 0:29:31.440 --> 0:29:33.200 will put you into the middle class. You can take vacations, 0:29:33.240 --> 0:29:35.880 you can have a house, um, you can get pensions. 0:29:36.000 --> 0:29:37.920 Your unions are legal now, which is the thing that 0:29:38.000 --> 0:29:42.800 like you know, hadn't happened before. And this is essentially 0:29:42.960 --> 0:29:45.479 you know, this is essentially a kind of insurgency tool. Um. 0:29:45.640 --> 0:29:50.080 The goal of this is to stop people from you know, 0:29:50.240 --> 0:29:51.880 doing the kinds of revolts. So we're happening in at 0:29:51.920 --> 0:29:55.600 the dirties, but by the nineteen seventies, it's becoming very 0:29:55.640 --> 0:29:58.560 clear that this sort of the like can't it can't 0:29:58.560 --> 0:30:01.520 really be maintained because it's too expensive for sort of 0:30:01.680 --> 0:30:05.520 the capital states to maintain and trying to maintain both well. 0:30:05.520 --> 0:30:08.360 And you know, the secondary thing here is is, you know, okay, 0:30:08.400 --> 0:30:11.960 so this deal specifically goes out to white men right now. 0:30:12.680 --> 0:30:14.640 Throughout the sixties and seventies, you get a bunch of 0:30:14.720 --> 0:30:17.760 other people who are not white men attempting to enter 0:30:17.800 --> 0:30:20.760 the workplace, attempting you get the same bargain, and you know, 0:30:21.080 --> 0:30:23.400 they're in a lot of ways significantly were militants. And 0:30:23.600 --> 0:30:28.440 this causes normal sponseimentional strife. You get you know, the 0:30:28.600 --> 0:30:31.160 US is murdering the black panthers. You get similar stuff 0:30:31.160 --> 0:30:39.080 in the UK. And the neoliberals basically are the people 0:30:39.120 --> 0:30:41.479 who just fully called this to tants off and are 0:30:41.640 --> 0:30:43.760 you know, essentially going to return to full scale class war. 0:30:44.560 --> 0:30:46.760 And so now now we are, we are finally getting 0:30:46.800 --> 0:30:48.920 to Reagan and Thatcher. And one day we will do 0:30:49.040 --> 0:30:51.800 a full episode about how Ronald Reagan, in a weird, 0:30:51.880 --> 0:30:55.080 shadowy cabal of Italian intelligence services, rigged the nineteen eighty 0:30:55.120 --> 0:30:57.760 election by planting fake stories about Jimmy Carter's brother and 0:30:57.840 --> 0:31:03.240 the press, which is if you hear the story, Garrison, No, 0:31:03.480 --> 0:31:06.880 but it sounds like regular media manipulation that happens all 0:31:06.960 --> 0:31:10.200 the time. Now. Yeah, yeah, it's it's yeah, there, there's, there's, 0:31:10.240 --> 0:31:13.760 there's there's there's a whole three line there because you 0:31:13.840 --> 0:31:17.320 know a lot of those like same kind of intelligence 0:31:17.360 --> 0:31:19.320 tactics are gonna be used SOUTHI Iraq war, and there's 0:31:19.360 --> 0:31:21.000 there's this whole sort of thing. Then you know, there's 0:31:21.000 --> 0:31:24.959 also the specific Italian angle of uh yeah, the Italian 0:31:25.000 --> 0:31:28.320 States being run by this rogue Masonic lodge led by 0:31:28.640 --> 0:31:31.760 a fascist and it's it's a time this is all 0:31:31.880 --> 0:31:33.720 going on there. But that's you know, I'm just I'm 0:31:33.760 --> 0:31:37.520 just thinking like Hunter Biden laptop and all of that. Yeah, 0:31:37.640 --> 0:31:41.680 yeah stuff. It's like, oh so that's just the same playbook. Yeah, 0:31:41.720 --> 0:31:43.560 it's it's the same thing, except like they were like 0:31:43.680 --> 0:31:46.400 actual intelligence people running it instead of just sort of 0:31:46.560 --> 0:31:51.600 like whatever Tucker carloson Tucker Carlos said in Glenn Greenwaal 0:31:51.680 --> 0:31:55.040 trying to get people like care about this thing that 0:31:55.160 --> 0:31:58.400 just nobody gives a single ship about. Yeah, you know, 0:31:58.480 --> 0:32:00.600 it was, it was, but the E's version of it 0:32:00.640 --> 0:32:03.560 was significantly more effective. And you know, the product of 0:32:03.640 --> 0:32:08.400 this is that Reagan sort of Reagan finds like the 0:32:08.560 --> 0:32:11.080 secret sauce for right wing politics, which is kind of 0:32:11.160 --> 0:32:15.240 you know, in in in in some ways, and Nixon 0:32:15.320 --> 0:32:17.479 had been trying to develop it hadn't quite gotten right, 0:32:17.960 --> 0:32:20.920 which is no, yeah, yeah, yeah. He he figures out 0:32:20.960 --> 0:32:22.400 that you know, if if you want to do nei liberalism, 0:32:22.440 --> 0:32:23.640 if you want to stroy the unions, you want to 0:32:23.680 --> 0:32:25.360 stroy the welfare state, the way you do it is 0:32:25.640 --> 0:32:29.240 basically a combination of racist tax and welfare recipients, and 0:32:29.400 --> 0:32:33.640 you mobilize new religious right. And this is extremely effective 0:32:33.680 --> 0:32:35.560 and it's but I think it's also interesting and worth 0:32:35.640 --> 0:32:38.400 noting that, you know, if if you got all the 0:32:38.440 --> 0:32:40.880 back to episode one, like this is this is rope 0:32:40.960 --> 0:32:44.280 keys like white nationalism, like sure German white nationalism. Thing 0:32:44.320 --> 0:32:46.520 is this is explicitly what Ropeky sort of strategy for 0:32:46.560 --> 0:32:49.160 implenting new liberalism was. The problem is he was German 0:32:49.200 --> 0:32:51.520 and Catholic, which meant that like it could never work 0:32:51.560 --> 0:32:55.320 in the US. But you know, you get Reagan, suddenly 0:32:55.360 --> 0:32:58.000 you get the American version of it, that is, you know, 0:32:59.200 --> 0:33:02.160 white but Erican and then also works off the sort 0:33:02.200 --> 0:33:04.920 of of off of the sort of mass Protestantism in 0:33:05.000 --> 0:33:12.640 the US, and this becomes a force that is responsible 0:33:12.720 --> 0:33:16.040 for like almost every bad thing that exists today in 0:33:16.160 --> 0:33:19.200 some form or another. Lot of them. Yeah, I mean 0:33:19.240 --> 0:33:21.040 not not often, but you know, I think thing things 0:33:21.120 --> 0:33:26.800 go extremely badly. And so Reagan wins this election, and 0:33:26.840 --> 0:33:30.320 then almost exactly the same time, Margaret Thatcher wins the 0:33:30.560 --> 0:33:34.360 wins her election in in the UK, and that the 0:33:34.440 --> 0:33:37.600 combination of those two things, and also, as you talked 0:33:37.600 --> 0:33:41.240 about last episode, the Vulcar shock, where Vulcar raises the 0:33:41.320 --> 0:33:45.880 interest rates, just raised defendation become so Vulcar is installed 0:33:46.160 --> 0:33:49.520 weirdly not by Ronald Reagan but by Jimmy Carter, but 0:33:49.840 --> 0:33:51.600 is given this sort of mandate to just do whatever, 0:33:51.920 --> 0:33:53.920 literally do whatever you have to to to get inflation 0:33:54.000 --> 0:33:55.560 under control. The thing that he decides to do is 0:33:55.640 --> 0:33:59.040 just literally nuke the entire world economy, you know when 0:33:59.080 --> 0:34:01.040 we talked about the effects of this hat on sort 0:34:01.080 --> 0:34:03.880 of the world in the last episode. But in the 0:34:04.080 --> 0:34:07.000 US this sets off a recession at last basically from 0:34:07.080 --> 0:34:10.719 like nineteen seventy nine to Night two at the height 0:34:10.800 --> 0:34:13.440 of it. It's like it's I think we finally got 0:34:13.520 --> 0:34:17.920 more people unemployed during the pandemic, but I'm like sure 0:34:18.000 --> 0:34:21.000 that between World War Two and the pandemic, that was 0:34:21.080 --> 0:34:22.840 the single largest number of people who have been unemployed 0:34:22.840 --> 0:34:25.960 in the US, which just yeah, it was just apocle, 0:34:26.080 --> 0:34:28.719 just apocle devastation. And you know, there's there's there's a 0:34:28.760 --> 0:34:30.759 whole thing here where the head of the a f 0:34:30.840 --> 0:34:33.120 l C. I OH is literally begging Vulcar like, please 0:34:33.200 --> 0:34:35.480 don't do this, like we can get inflation under control after, 0:34:35.760 --> 0:34:37.960 you know, after the economy recovers, and vocals just like no. 0:34:39.320 --> 0:34:41.719 The consequence of this is that you have you have 0:34:41.800 --> 0:34:43.960 an economy in which is no more number people unemployed, 0:34:44.840 --> 0:34:49.760 and the unions are weak, and both Reagan and Thatcher 0:34:51.200 --> 0:34:54.040 sort of see this. Now the unions in the UK 0:34:54.200 --> 0:34:56.280 are in a snifful better position of the American unions. 0:34:58.000 --> 0:35:01.200 Reagan is able to sort of smashed the American unions 0:35:01.280 --> 0:35:03.560 very quickly. There's there's the you know, the famous air 0:35:03.600 --> 0:35:06.120 traffic control strike where a bunch of American air traffic 0:35:06.200 --> 0:35:10.359 controllers go on strike technically illegally, and Reagan just has 0:35:10.560 --> 0:35:13.040 literally every single one of them fired and replaces them 0:35:13.120 --> 0:35:17.200 with just like like like people from flight school, like 0:35:17.360 --> 0:35:19.759 people who just just like ap literally anyone he can 0:35:19.800 --> 0:35:21.719 just like pull off the street who sort of kind 0:35:21.800 --> 0:35:23.920 of knows how to how to land an aircraft, like 0:35:23.920 --> 0:35:26.040 they put on people from the military. It's it's just 0:35:26.200 --> 0:35:30.160 like this absolutely wild sort of feet of strike breaking. 0:35:30.280 --> 0:35:32.680 And then you know, and when when when that falls, 0:35:33.120 --> 0:35:37.640 and that that strike fails, you know, the air traffic controllers, well, okay, 0:35:37.680 --> 0:35:39.800 funnily so, the air traff controllers had actually backed Reagan. 0:35:39.840 --> 0:35:41.880 They were like the only union that backed Reagan in 0:35:41.880 --> 0:35:44.839 the election, and they immediately just get you know, they 0:35:44.880 --> 0:35:51.040 get gutted for it, which, like I have mixed feelings 0:35:51.080 --> 0:35:53.399 about because like on the one hand, like, yeah, that's 0:35:53.480 --> 0:35:55.000 that's that's what you get. But on the other hand, 0:35:55.120 --> 0:35:58.239 this is basically what the stories this dis is the 0:35:58.280 --> 0:36:00.760 consequences that this is basically what the stories like trade 0:36:00.840 --> 0:36:03.359 unions in the US because at this at this point, 0:36:03.440 --> 0:36:05.839 everyone realizes that the unions a week and they just start, 0:36:06.000 --> 0:36:07.799 you know, there's uet to the point where employers are 0:36:07.840 --> 0:36:10.799 deliberately provoking strikes so that they can just fire all 0:36:10.840 --> 0:36:15.040 the unionized employees. And it's extremely effective. In in Britain, 0:36:15.480 --> 0:36:19.440 the fight is a lot more intense um in in 0:36:19.640 --> 0:36:23.520 in Ninity four, Thatcher cuts cold, like basically Thatchery wants 0:36:23.560 --> 0:36:26.400 to provoke a fight with with the coal unions, and 0:36:27.400 --> 0:36:29.279 so she basically wants to shut down a whole bunch 0:36:29.280 --> 0:36:33.360 of coal production and fire like twenty miners, and the 0:36:33.440 --> 0:36:35.120 miners go on strike, and they go on strike for 0:36:35.200 --> 0:36:38.520 over a year. But Thatcher had basically stockpiled enough cold 0:36:38.520 --> 0:36:40.200 to stay off the worst effects of the strike. And 0:36:40.280 --> 0:36:43.400 then she makes these incredibly elaborate network of deals with 0:36:44.239 --> 0:36:47.800 like She's like this this whole scab driver like union, 0:36:48.120 --> 0:36:51.480 like basicallyically this whole network of scab drivers, like make 0:36:51.480 --> 0:36:53.200 sure you can move the coal around while the strike's 0:36:53.239 --> 0:36:58.320 going on. There there's all of this stuff, and you know, 0:36:58.440 --> 0:37:00.759 and and she eventually is able to crust the coal strike. 0:37:00.800 --> 0:37:04.520 And this also just just completely annihilates, like the British 0:37:04.520 --> 0:37:07.480 trade union movement, I mean union participation, I think dreaming 0:37:07.560 --> 0:37:11.640 Thatcher's term alone falls and it's gotten way worse since then. 0:37:12.200 --> 0:37:14.680 So so with with those two incidents, the air traffic 0:37:14.760 --> 0:37:18.600 control and the coal did did those just kind of 0:37:18.760 --> 0:37:22.120 make people be disillusioned or did that just like pave 0:37:22.239 --> 0:37:26.239 the way for similar tactics to be acceptable for every 0:37:26.280 --> 0:37:28.719 other union that tried to do the same thing both 0:37:28.920 --> 0:37:31.759 and then the ever thing was fear because you know, 0:37:31.880 --> 0:37:34.000 so with the air traffic controllers, right, the air traffic 0:37:34.040 --> 0:37:37.440 controllers are you know, these are the most highly skilled 0:37:38.200 --> 0:37:40.200 like people people in there there. These are a bunch 0:37:40.200 --> 0:37:42.120 of people who are incredibly highly skilled, and they're in there, 0:37:42.160 --> 0:37:43.960 in there in a logistic industry, right, So you know, 0:37:44.040 --> 0:37:45.560 in theory, these are the people who have like the 0:37:46.480 --> 0:37:48.840 maximum amount of impact if they would go on strike. 0:37:49.680 --> 0:37:52.439 And when Reagan shows that you can literally just fire 0:37:52.520 --> 0:37:55.240 twenty four thousand people of like the most highly skilled 0:37:55.280 --> 0:37:56.960 sort of workers in the in the US, you can 0:37:57.040 --> 0:37:59.200 fire them and just break the strike and nothing will happen, 0:37:59.840 --> 0:38:01.799 and you know, the result is total defeat and none 0:38:01.800 --> 0:38:05.080 of these people ever work again. That basically spreads this 0:38:05.160 --> 0:38:08.920 massive wave of fear through the union movements because you know, 0:38:09.080 --> 0:38:10.760 if they can fire those guys, that can fire anyone, 0:38:10.800 --> 0:38:14.000 and then you know, the the employers should start doing it. 0:38:14.520 --> 0:38:17.040 And the other thing that's been happening here is that 0:38:17.280 --> 0:38:22.440 for really since the end of the forties, the unions 0:38:22.480 --> 0:38:26.839 have kind of so we'll we'll talk about this more 0:38:27.000 --> 0:38:29.240 in in in an interview that's gonna come out probably 0:38:29.280 --> 0:38:32.400 next week about sort of the history American union movements, 0:38:32.520 --> 0:38:37.000 but American unions basically so American, like the union movement 0:38:37.080 --> 0:38:43.160 was built by radical organizers and in the forties and 0:38:43.200 --> 0:38:46.040 sort of moving on from there, all these people get 0:38:46.080 --> 0:38:52.400 expelled from labor movement, and labor fights this basically incredibly 0:38:52.440 --> 0:38:55.200 intense battle against its own left flank, and you have 0:38:55.680 --> 0:38:57.680 you know, like, for example, in in there's this thing 0:38:57.719 --> 0:39:01.080 called the Dodge Revolutionary Movement, right, which is a bunch 0:39:01.080 --> 0:39:04.000 of mostly black workers in Detroit who are you know, 0:39:04.600 --> 0:39:07.439 they're they're they're they're forming unions, they're going on strike, 0:39:07.440 --> 0:39:10.120 but they're also fighting against the the u a W 0:39:10.280 --> 0:39:12.560 because the U a W is cooperating too closer but 0:39:12.600 --> 0:39:15.000 the bosses etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. And there's there's there's these 0:39:15.080 --> 0:39:18.759 you know, there's there's basically this battle between like not 0:39:18.840 --> 0:39:21.680 even just basically between the unions ranked and file and 0:39:21.760 --> 0:39:24.759 the radicals and the sort of business union management. And 0:39:25.280 --> 0:39:29.040 in fighting that battle, the unions had basically like massively 0:39:29.120 --> 0:39:32.080 weakened themselves. And then you know, by by by by 0:39:32.120 --> 0:39:35.560 the time you hit the eighties, especially in the US, 0:39:35.600 --> 0:39:37.120 the unions are just sort of a shell out their 0:39:37.160 --> 0:39:40.040 former selves and and Reagan just sort of like smashes 0:39:40.080 --> 0:39:43.560 them aside. And Thatcher the British unions are much stronger, 0:39:43.880 --> 0:39:46.960 but you know, I mean that Thatcher is preparing to 0:39:47.120 --> 0:39:49.640 like like there she she has plans to, like the 0:39:49.840 --> 0:39:51.840 army is going to come in and suppress the strike. 0:39:51.920 --> 0:39:54.560 There's these and especially there's there's just, I mean just 0:39:54.680 --> 0:39:59.040 an absolutely incredible amount of police violence. Um that's you know, 0:39:59.040 --> 0:40:00.440 I mean, this is this is something that had like 0:40:00.600 --> 0:40:03.960 happened before dream strikes, but the the the the level 0:40:04.000 --> 0:40:07.960 of intensity of it is just like massively increased. And 0:40:09.160 --> 0:40:13.080 there's also another thing that's happening basically at the same 0:40:13.120 --> 0:40:14.759 time of this, which is squeezing the units from the 0:40:14.800 --> 0:40:20.960 other side, which is there's this I guess you could 0:40:21.000 --> 0:40:23.720 call it like an internal class war inside the ruling 0:40:23.760 --> 0:40:26.880 class between well specifically inside inside of the sort of 0:40:26.960 --> 0:40:31.320 corporate management between the sort of traditional like manager CEO 0:40:31.480 --> 0:40:34.719 class and the sort of like I guess you could 0:40:34.719 --> 0:40:37.280 call them, I don't know, the sort of Wall Street 0:40:37.320 --> 0:40:41.440 finance bank types and so so yeah, so One of 0:40:41.480 --> 0:40:43.840 the other things that that happens at the end of 0:40:44.640 --> 0:40:46.840 you know, basically after the war is the sort of 0:40:46.880 --> 0:40:49.240 class compromise was talking about like this, this happens inside 0:40:49.280 --> 0:40:51.600 of the company too, and people start to see the 0:40:51.680 --> 0:40:54.360 corporation as like a social institution. It has you know, 0:40:54.480 --> 0:40:57.399 it's like, well, okay, so there's this alliance between middle 0:40:57.480 --> 0:41:00.600 management and the workers. And I was like, okay, so 0:41:00.640 --> 0:41:03.160 we we both worked with each other, and you know, 0:41:03.320 --> 0:41:05.440 the compromises that you guys got to have unions, but 0:41:05.600 --> 0:41:07.719 the unions won't sort of disrupt production, will all work 0:41:07.760 --> 0:41:10.560 together and we'll just make like I don't know, we'll 0:41:10.640 --> 0:41:14.680 we'll make really really good ballpoint pens together. And so yeah, 0:41:14.840 --> 0:41:16.840 you have this lince between sort of middle managements and 0:41:17.080 --> 0:41:19.600 and these unions. You know, and this this is embedded 0:41:19.640 --> 0:41:21.279 into the structure of the corporation because you know, you 0:41:21.360 --> 0:41:22.759 not you not only have the unions, but you have 0:41:23.480 --> 0:41:28.200 corporations paying pensions. One of the things that that Reagan 0:41:28.480 --> 0:41:31.840 does is that Reagan starts, you know, Reagan does this 0:41:32.080 --> 0:41:35.840 massive series of financial deregulations, and the other part of 0:41:35.880 --> 0:41:39.279 this agreement basically had been that like the high level 0:41:39.320 --> 0:41:41.040 of finance class has sort of stayed out of the 0:41:41.120 --> 0:41:43.960 way of management, and so management kind of like you know, 0:41:44.040 --> 0:41:46.600 the the you get this like this independent sort of 0:41:46.680 --> 0:41:49.520 CEO class that that's that's a distinct thing that you 0:41:49.560 --> 0:41:51.320 know that there people who come up through the company 0:41:51.320 --> 0:41:53.000 who managers and worked away at the top. And this 0:41:53.080 --> 0:41:55.600 is a distinct thing from sort of the finance people 0:41:55.640 --> 0:41:57.520 who are like they're not supposed to be allowed, like 0:41:57.600 --> 0:42:00.760 you know, the touch production. But in the nineteen eighties, 0:42:00.840 --> 0:42:06.000 the finance people start to look at this and go, wait, 0:42:06.120 --> 0:42:09.160 hold on, why are we not running things? And the 0:42:09.239 --> 0:42:11.440 finance people have because they have are two things on 0:42:11.480 --> 0:42:13.520 their side. One they have a sort of neoliberal ideology, 0:42:13.600 --> 0:42:18.240 and the second thing they have is so Michael Milken 0:42:19.200 --> 0:42:21.040 he figures out how to do this thing called a 0:42:21.120 --> 0:42:24.080 leverage buyout option. It's it's it's a it's a kind 0:42:24.080 --> 0:42:27.400 of complicated financial instrument. The short and simple explanation of 0:42:27.480 --> 0:42:30.319 what it is is he figures out a way too 0:42:31.880 --> 0:42:35.439 basically go into a bunch of debt, and he gets 0:42:35.440 --> 0:42:37.440 he gets people to givehim a bunch of money, like 0:42:37.880 --> 0:42:40.160 in the form of these bonds, and then he uses 0:42:40.200 --> 0:42:43.480 it just buy out entire companies he buys one of 0:42:43.480 --> 0:42:45.200 the company. And if you own fits of the company, 0:42:45.239 --> 0:42:48.480 now you control, you have controlling interest. And so he 0:42:48.680 --> 0:42:50.959 goes in and she just she just raises the stock 0:42:51.000 --> 0:42:53.440 prices of all these companies. And now you know, but 0:42:53.520 --> 0:42:56.239 I mean, now he's gone into an enormous amount of 0:42:56.280 --> 0:42:58.120 debts right in order to buy, in order to buy 0:42:58.200 --> 0:43:00.560 this company, and so you know, in order to pay 0:43:00.560 --> 0:43:02.480 off that debt, he just starts strip money in the company. 0:43:03.120 --> 0:43:05.120 And so he starts, you know, anything that can be 0:43:05.280 --> 0:43:07.360 sold for money that he can put in his pocket 0:43:07.440 --> 0:43:09.880 to pay off his debt starts getting sold. And you know, 0:43:10.040 --> 0:43:12.160 every anything the corporate that the company is doing, it 0:43:12.200 --> 0:43:15.000 doesn't immediately make money or doesn't immediately raise the stock 0:43:15.040 --> 0:43:19.359 price gets cut. And so you know, there there, there, 0:43:19.400 --> 0:43:22.480 there are. There are two major things that a company 0:43:22.600 --> 0:43:24.960 has that don't immediately make money and don't raise the 0:43:25.000 --> 0:43:28.000 stock price, and that is pensions and research and development. 0:43:29.080 --> 0:43:32.440 And this this has you know, this, this this this 0:43:32.600 --> 0:43:34.680 this becomes known as the sort of this is the 0:43:34.760 --> 0:43:38.520 hustle takeover waves. It gets rebranded as mergers and acquisitions 0:43:38.560 --> 0:43:40.520 in the nineties, but it's it's this huge sort of 0:43:41.400 --> 0:43:45.200 wave those these corporate scrips corporate America, and it turns 0:43:45.280 --> 0:43:48.600 the corporation from this kind of social body where it's like, well, 0:43:48.640 --> 0:43:52.800 everyone's cooperating and companies sort of have this responsibility to 0:43:52.920 --> 0:43:55.920 like provide for their workers and provide sort of for 0:43:56.000 --> 0:43:59.040 like the social good into literally the only like the 0:43:59.320 --> 0:44:02.319 single entire your purpose of any company is to raise 0:44:02.400 --> 0:44:08.839 the stock price. And this yeah, this is really bad. Yeah, 0:44:08.920 --> 0:44:11.080 and and and you know, the part about it that's 0:44:11.080 --> 0:44:14.640 awful is that, you know, okay, so all all literally 0:44:14.800 --> 0:44:18.120 all a corporate rad has to do in order to 0:44:19.560 --> 0:44:21.360 buy out one of these companies is be able to 0:44:21.600 --> 0:44:23.399 is be able to offer a price for the stock 0:44:23.480 --> 0:44:26.359 that's higher from the stock price of the company now. 0:44:26.480 --> 0:44:28.840 And this means even so they're they're they're there's a 0:44:28.960 --> 0:44:33.280 very famous series of battles they buy out. An enormous 0:44:33.320 --> 0:44:35.480 number of companies get bought out into strip minds like this, 0:44:36.320 --> 0:44:38.120 and you know, and everything and again these are these 0:44:38.160 --> 0:44:40.440 are very very profitable companies, right, These are companies with 0:44:40.560 --> 0:44:42.719 large research development budget. These are companies that are making 0:44:42.840 --> 0:44:46.759 enormous amounts of money, and they're just completely destroyed in 0:44:46.880 --> 0:44:49.400 order to sort of just like satiate these just like 0:44:49.680 --> 0:44:53.560 absolute Google, corporate like vulture Rader people. This is you know, 0:44:53.600 --> 0:44:55.680 if you remember, might be too young for this, but 0:44:56.239 --> 0:44:59.680 Romney's campaign for so yeah. One of one of the 0:44:59.680 --> 0:45:03.320 reasons why Romney loses is that like he's one of 0:45:03.400 --> 0:45:05.919 these guys like he's he's like he's the big bang 0:45:05.960 --> 0:45:08.440 capital guy, and everyone's kind of looked at him and 0:45:08.520 --> 0:45:11.400 goes like, you're the reason we'd like guide to this 0:45:11.560 --> 0:45:14.560 mess in the first place. But the problem, the problem 0:45:14.680 --> 0:45:16.120 is that these people who have enough money and they 0:45:16.160 --> 0:45:17.600 have enough power, they were able to do this and 0:45:17.800 --> 0:45:21.279 in order to stop them, so either there there there's 0:45:21.280 --> 0:45:23.799 a massive there's a massive fight. A bunch of people 0:45:23.840 --> 0:45:26.560 try to take over good Year, who you know, they 0:45:26.640 --> 0:45:30.120 make the tires, they have the blimps, and Goodyear CEO 0:45:30.800 --> 0:45:34.880 is like fanatically opposed to all of this because you know, 0:45:35.000 --> 0:45:38.040 he's he's from the old ceo crop who's like, wow, okay, 0:45:38.080 --> 0:45:40.520 we're here to like make things instead of you know, 0:45:40.840 --> 0:45:43.480 increased stock prices. But the problem is the only way 0:45:43.520 --> 0:45:45.200 he can save off the raiders is by increasing a 0:45:45.239 --> 0:45:48.080 stock price. And the only way to increase stock prices 0:45:48.200 --> 0:45:50.200 is by doing the things the corporate raiders already doing 0:45:50.239 --> 0:45:52.200 so he starts slashing ptations. He starts slashing with your 0:45:52.239 --> 0:45:54.120 development budgets. Yeah, and this and this, this sort of 0:45:54.160 --> 0:45:58.000 cycles because now you have you know, there's there, there's 0:45:58.080 --> 0:46:00.360 it's it's it's you're not only having pressure for you know, 0:46:00.480 --> 0:46:04.400 like the government that's that's anti union. The corporations themselves 0:46:04.480 --> 0:46:07.120 are being forced to become more anti union because they're 0:46:07.280 --> 0:46:09.400 you know, they now have this pressure on them from 0:46:09.440 --> 0:46:11.279 the top down, from from these sort of these sort 0:46:11.320 --> 0:46:15.560 of finance schools, and the finance schools in a lot 0:46:15.600 --> 0:46:18.680 of ways just the perfect nilable subjects, right, because they 0:46:18.760 --> 0:46:20.640 only see the world in money. They see everything as 0:46:20.640 --> 0:46:22.960 a market that they literally think that like they they 0:46:23.160 --> 0:46:25.600 are like these like shamans if if if there's a 0:46:25.640 --> 0:46:28.799 really good ethnography that I've plugged before on here called 0:46:28.840 --> 0:46:33.640 liquidated and an ethnography and void yet liquidated in Ethnography 0:46:33.680 --> 0:46:36.839 of Wall Street where an anthropologist goes onto Wall Street 0:46:36.880 --> 0:46:39.040 and works there for a while and then you cannot 0:46:39.040 --> 0:46:41.000 a bunch of interviews, doesn't it does endthpological stuff. And 0:46:41.160 --> 0:46:43.080 the way they talk about the market, they they literally 0:46:43.160 --> 0:46:45.960 talk about as if they're channeling it, right, like it's 0:46:46.040 --> 0:46:48.880 like something and they're like, these are yea, these are 0:46:49.120 --> 0:46:52.160 these are that's that's one of the new gods of 0:46:52.560 --> 0:46:56.200 of our world. That yeah, that's I mean, that's that's 0:46:56.239 --> 0:47:00.359 not an uncommon term of phrase to describe stuff like this. Yeah, 0:47:00.440 --> 0:47:01.880 and and what what what what I think is they 0:47:01.880 --> 0:47:04.160 just think about it though, is that you know that 0:47:04.560 --> 0:47:06.840 conception of the market of like every person is just 0:47:06.920 --> 0:47:12.400 like a peer like completely socially unbounds like thing of 0:47:12.560 --> 0:47:14.520 capital that you oh, well, okay, if you lose your 0:47:14.560 --> 0:47:16.839 job here, you can just moved to another firm, right, 0:47:17.080 --> 0:47:19.279 So this makes sense inside of the context of Wall 0:47:19.280 --> 0:47:21.839 Street because these people like like these Wall Street firms 0:47:21.840 --> 0:47:23.600 they have they have like like thirty pc and turn 0:47:23.680 --> 0:47:26.160 over a year, and so all these people are constantly 0:47:26.239 --> 0:47:28.040 being fired and shuffle onto the next job, and fired 0:47:28.080 --> 0:47:31.239 and shuffle on to the next job. And so you know, 0:47:31.520 --> 0:47:34.160 they so they they do they do this very common 0:47:34.360 --> 0:47:36.400 sort of fallacy thing where they assume that because this 0:47:36.520 --> 0:47:37.840 is the way that it works for them, but this 0:47:37.880 --> 0:47:40.200 is the way it's gonna work for everyone else, And 0:47:40.239 --> 0:47:42.080 then they genuine and a lot of these people genuinely 0:47:42.120 --> 0:47:43.880 believe this. They're like, well, Okay, So the things we're 0:47:43.880 --> 0:47:45.480 gonna with, things that we're about to do, like, you know, 0:47:45.520 --> 0:47:47.680 when we destroy these workers entire lives, when we be 0:47:47.760 --> 0:47:49.400 you know, when we close their factories, when we take 0:47:49.440 --> 0:47:53.239 their pensions, when we literally destroyed like every community and 0:47:53.320 --> 0:47:55.840 every like thing that's every just in your lives, they're like, oh, 0:47:55.880 --> 0:47:57.399 they'll just pick themselves up and go to another place 0:47:57.400 --> 0:48:00.200 and they'll be fine, because you know, if you're you're 0:48:00.280 --> 0:48:03.399 you know, a Wall Street finance school, like, yeah, that's 0:48:03.440 --> 0:48:05.279 that's what happens when you get fired every three months. 0:48:06.640 --> 0:48:10.560 And so these people, these people basically take control of 0:48:12.360 --> 0:48:14.319 the entire corporate sector. They do. They do this very 0:48:14.440 --> 0:48:16.839 quickly by you know, they start this in the sort 0:48:16.840 --> 0:48:21.000 of early eighties. And uh, Milliken, the guy who comes 0:48:21.080 --> 0:48:25.719 up with the junk bonds leveraged buyout scheme, like he 0:48:25.920 --> 0:48:28.120 he goes to jail for I think securities fraud. They 0:48:28.120 --> 0:48:30.279 get him for fraud. But it doesn't it a lot 0:48:30.360 --> 0:48:35.600 of those guys, yea, all of these people like again, 0:48:35.640 --> 0:48:39.080 all of these people are just doing crime. Like now, yeah, 0:48:39.160 --> 0:48:43.920 that's how finance standards, this is how this is how 0:48:43.960 --> 0:48:45.960 the Action Park guy got kicked out. You got kicked 0:48:45.960 --> 0:48:50.120 out doing in all the same stuff. And again I 0:48:50.239 --> 0:48:52.160 want to put this out, like the stuff they're doing 0:48:52.360 --> 0:48:56.000 is so illegal that like even the Reagan administration was like, no, 0:48:56.320 --> 0:48:59.600 we have to prosecute you. Like it's like this is 0:48:59.800 --> 0:49:03.600 the this is the Ronald Reagan Justice Departments, and they're 0:49:03.719 --> 0:49:08.480 like it was it was so much grib Yeah, it's 0:49:08.560 --> 0:49:11.040 it's really bad. And and you know the result of 0:49:11.160 --> 0:49:16.440 this is just basically the total visceration of of the 0:49:16.520 --> 0:49:20.759 working class just like as a movement. And you know, 0:49:20.880 --> 0:49:22.880 all the left wing parties are sort of shaped by this, 0:49:23.200 --> 0:49:25.720 and you know, and you know, we we've been focusing 0:49:25.760 --> 0:49:29.319 on on the US and UH and the UK here, 0:49:29.400 --> 0:49:30.960 but this is not the only place this happens. And 0:49:31.120 --> 0:49:33.000 you know, so one of the you know, like this, 0:49:33.120 --> 0:49:36.760 this happens, this, this also starts happening like in socialist states. 0:49:37.440 --> 0:49:39.239 Um and we talked about this in more detail in 0:49:39.280 --> 0:49:43.719 our interview with Arnessa Kusutra about Bosnia. But one of 0:49:43.800 --> 0:49:47.239 the big things that Miloshevik is doing in Yugoslavia and 0:49:47.440 --> 0:49:49.560 when when he takes power and he starts like actually 0:49:49.600 --> 0:49:51.920 being a real political force in think in eighties, is 0:49:52.080 --> 0:49:55.239 he starts doing basically all of the same stuff that 0:49:55.440 --> 0:49:57.920 that that Reagan attacherent doing. He starts, he starts implemented 0:49:57.920 --> 0:50:03.000 shocked dooction, he starts privatization, he starts um like marketization, 0:50:03.200 --> 0:50:06.000 he starts cutting studying, cutting price controls, he starts sort 0:50:06.040 --> 0:50:09.080 of he starts doing I don't know if decollectivization is 0:50:09.160 --> 0:50:15.360 quite the right word, because Yugoslavia's economic system is complicated 0:50:15.400 --> 0:50:20.000 and weirder than uh, the USSRS. But you know, he 0:50:20.120 --> 0:50:22.880 does this, and this is one of the things that 0:50:22.920 --> 0:50:25.120 starts Yugoslavia's death spiral, because you know, you have this 0:50:25.440 --> 0:50:29.360 enormous economic devastation from the increase in oil prices for 0:50:29.400 --> 0:50:33.000 the oil shock, and then that gets paired with, you know, 0:50:33.280 --> 0:50:36.640 the the economic devastation from everyone losing their benefits, people 0:50:36.680 --> 0:50:39.640 losing de pensions, the state own industries going under and 0:50:39.640 --> 0:50:44.920 getting privatized, um the sort of like collective ownership structures, imploading. 0:50:46.040 --> 0:50:51.280 And the product of this is that, you know, Melosvik 0:50:51.320 --> 0:50:52.400 looks at this and it's like, Okay, how can I 0:50:52.440 --> 0:50:55.440 stay in power? And his answer is just genocide on that. 0:50:55.520 --> 0:50:59.320 It's just genocide on nationalism. And this sort of collapse 0:50:59.400 --> 0:51:02.120 or sort of state in social life is you know, 0:51:02.280 --> 0:51:04.960 and and the leaders at the top realizing that they 0:51:05.000 --> 0:51:08.080 can weaponize sort of nationalism is one of the things 0:51:08.080 --> 0:51:11.520 at least directly to the Boston and genocide. Now towards 0:51:11.560 --> 0:51:13.480 the end of the eighties, the whole Soviet block starts 0:51:13.520 --> 0:51:16.440 coming apart. Um. Yeah, you know, the Berlin Wall falls 0:51:16.760 --> 0:51:21.040 and eventually, you know, the Soviet Union dissolves, and the 0:51:21.160 --> 0:51:24.279 people who are trying to end the Soviet Union, the 0:51:24.400 --> 0:51:28.600 things that they want basically are like freedom of speech, uh, 0:51:28.800 --> 0:51:32.160 the ability to like leave the country and basically like 0:51:32.200 --> 0:51:37.640 Scandinavian style social democracy. And it was like reasonable from 0:51:37.640 --> 0:51:39.799 the Soviet Union. Yeah yeah, and you know, I mean 0:51:39.880 --> 0:51:42.920 these these people like you know, this is these you know, 0:51:43.040 --> 0:51:46.800 like they they they wanted to live in Scandinavia and 0:51:46.920 --> 0:51:50.239 instead they got, hey, welcome to the US. But like 0:51:50.400 --> 0:51:56.879 even worse. Yeah and so yeah yeah, yeah, it's it's 0:51:56.920 --> 0:51:59.040 really bad. And you know what what they get said 0:51:59.080 --> 0:52:02.840 is just these this normous wave of privatizations the worldfaret 0:52:02.840 --> 0:52:07.880 stage just vanishes, and you know this this causes basically 0:52:08.040 --> 0:52:10.719 like total societal collapse. Um. Like one of my one 0:52:10.760 --> 0:52:12.759 of my professors, and this this happens basically across the 0:52:12.800 --> 0:52:15.320 whole Soviet block one of professions in college, and I 0:52:15.400 --> 0:52:19.600 think she was fumble gary. Um. She she told me 0:52:19.600 --> 0:52:21.840 about how dream the nineties like when she when she 0:52:21.920 --> 0:52:24.120 was growing up, like she and her family would just 0:52:24.360 --> 0:52:26.360 the only thing they had to eat was raw millet 0:52:26.440 --> 0:52:28.760 because there's no food. There's there's literally no food anywhere. 0:52:28.760 --> 0:52:31.320 The entire economy is collapsed. Nobody has any money, and 0:52:31.400 --> 0:52:33.319 so you know, I was like, well, okay, everyone's eating 0:52:33.400 --> 0:52:36.239 raw grain because you know that that's what that's that's 0:52:36.960 --> 0:52:38.920 the only thing you can you can you have to survive. 0:52:39.120 --> 0:52:42.879 And you know, it's this it's it's literally so bad 0:52:43.200 --> 0:52:46.160 that in Russia it causes the single largest life expectancy 0:52:46.239 --> 0:52:48.719 drop in post World War Europe. It's like like it's 0:52:48.760 --> 0:52:50.960 the life expected to decrease is about like four years 0:52:51.560 --> 0:52:54.360 because so many people die from this. Um you know, 0:52:54.440 --> 0:52:55.719 and on one of the one of the ways this 0:52:55.800 --> 0:53:00.520 happens is that there's so the way either they're going 0:53:00.560 --> 0:53:02.360 to deal with like the state owned industry thing is 0:53:02.440 --> 0:53:05.520 they they okay, And I've never been able to figure 0:53:05.600 --> 0:53:08.000 this figure out if it was like they they actually 0:53:08.080 --> 0:53:11.160 took Murray Rothbard's plan for this or if they just 0:53:11.280 --> 0:53:15.320 independently developed were a Rothbar's plan for for for dissolving 0:53:15.360 --> 0:53:17.319 state own the industries, which is give like everyone who 0:53:17.360 --> 0:53:20.640 worked in it a share of the company. And so 0:53:20.800 --> 0:53:22.480 they do this right, and everyone has these shares, but 0:53:22.520 --> 0:53:25.040 these shares are just like paper, and you can't eat 0:53:25.080 --> 0:53:28.040 this paper. So a bunch of sort of like organized 0:53:28.080 --> 0:53:30.160 crime guys and the people who have been you know, 0:53:30.320 --> 0:53:31.959 like like the sort of the people who've been richer 0:53:32.239 --> 0:53:34.879 or like had been sort of connected party people who 0:53:34.920 --> 0:53:36.719 were just like I'm just gonna cash out start, you know, 0:53:36.840 --> 0:53:39.560 just just going through cities and they're they'll, you know, 0:53:39.600 --> 0:53:41.200 they'll be like, okay, we'll give you a pair of gene, 0:53:41.280 --> 0:53:42.560 like we'll give you some food if you give us 0:53:42.600 --> 0:53:44.239 their share, and you know, everyone people just give up 0:53:44.280 --> 0:53:47.279 their shares. And the result of this is that like 0:53:48.080 --> 0:53:50.840 just every industry at Russia immediately falls under the control 0:53:50.880 --> 0:53:54.400 of just just like absolutely psychotic oligarchs. And you know, 0:53:54.560 --> 0:53:56.840 the the West definitely sharing this on that this this 0:53:56.920 --> 0:54:01.400 whole process is engineered by just a bunch of just 0:54:01.560 --> 0:54:06.960 like pure neoliberal ghoul like Harvards, like weird Harvard grads 0:54:07.000 --> 0:54:08.640 who gets sent into Russia and who are like, oh, 0:54:08.680 --> 0:54:10.520 we're gonna we're gonna run the Russian economy and we're 0:54:10.520 --> 0:54:15.320 gonna like fix everything, and they just just absolutely destroy it. 0:54:15.520 --> 0:54:18.560 And you know, the West has the thing they're they're 0:54:18.800 --> 0:54:20.560 you know, they're they're they're cheering on this whole process. 0:54:20.680 --> 0:54:22.960 They have this thing about how like everyone has to 0:54:22.960 --> 0:54:25.200 do belt tightening and it's you're gonna suffer for a 0:54:25.320 --> 0:54:28.200 bit and it'll all be worth it. And meanwhile, Boris 0:54:28.320 --> 0:54:31.600 Jelson is just completely drunk off his asked like shelling 0:54:31.680 --> 0:54:35.479 the parliament with tanks, while like the U. S. Press 0:54:35.560 --> 0:54:39.279 is cheering, and you know there's the sort of like 0:54:39.440 --> 0:54:42.239 you know, the tragedy this is like it's not really 0:54:42.320 --> 0:54:45.800 like Russia got like more free, you know, like they 0:54:45.840 --> 0:54:48.880 still they still torture and disappeared anarchists and secret prisons 0:54:49.120 --> 0:54:52.960 like you know they're there. They still just like randomly 0:54:53.000 --> 0:54:58.680 assassinate political dissidence with through increasingly bizarre like poison bullshit. 0:54:59.040 --> 0:55:04.239 Yeah they sure do. Yeah, but you know the big 0:55:04.320 --> 0:55:06.360 difference is that a bunch of Harvard grads made an 0:55:06.480 --> 0:55:08.719 indescribable amount of money. You now, no one has any 0:55:08.760 --> 0:55:11.279 pensions um and there's there's this is great, like this 0:55:11.400 --> 0:55:13.399 is a great Russian joke from this period that goes 0:55:14.000 --> 0:55:16.359 he's talking about the communists. Everything they ever told us 0:55:16.360 --> 0:55:18.560 about communism was alive, but everything they ever told us 0:55:18.560 --> 0:55:23.520 about capitalism was absolutely true. Yeah, that's that seems to 0:55:23.560 --> 0:55:27.719 be roughly accurate. Yeah, it's it's basically true. And you know, 0:55:27.960 --> 0:55:30.320 and and the product is sort of neoliberalism coming to 0:55:30.400 --> 0:55:33.200 Russia is that by by by the end of the nineties, 0:55:33.280 --> 0:55:37.120 Russia is just literally controlled by the mob and these 0:55:37.200 --> 0:55:40.560 sort of monsters oligarchs. And Putin's campaign is like I 0:55:40.640 --> 0:55:43.120 am better than the mob, and I will bring them. 0:55:43.160 --> 0:55:45.000 I will bring the mob and the oligarchs under control. 0:55:45.040 --> 0:55:46.480 And this is you know that, this is how Putin 0:55:46.520 --> 0:55:48.640 takes power because and he has failed to hold up 0:55:48.640 --> 0:55:52.920 to that probless to be fair, to be fair, the 0:55:53.920 --> 0:55:56.840 you are significantly less likely to just like randomly be 0:55:57.000 --> 0:56:00.920 kidnapped and ransoms. Not me. Oh I have I have 0:56:01.040 --> 0:56:03.279 wrote for a website. He does not like I could. 0:56:03.320 --> 0:56:08.479 That's true, that's true. Yeah, if yeah, if you kiss 0:56:08.520 --> 0:56:10.320 off Putin, you might be held for ransom. But it's like, 0:56:10.400 --> 0:56:13.120 you know the number of random people who don't do 0:56:13.200 --> 0:56:16.520 anything political who are just like randomly held for ransom. 0:56:16.719 --> 0:56:19.439 Did kind of go down a bit, and like that's 0:56:19.520 --> 0:56:22.440 I mean, all right, all right, you gotta hand it 0:56:22.520 --> 0:56:25.120 to Putin, Okay, I give him. Yeah, well okay. The 0:56:26.320 --> 0:56:28.200 thing on hand to Putin is that he restored the 0:56:28.239 --> 0:56:33.160 state's monopoly on violence. Now that's not a good thing now, 0:56:34.920 --> 0:56:37.040 but he did it. Yeah, he well he did it. 0:56:37.120 --> 0:56:39.359 And you know this, this was the basis of sort 0:56:39.400 --> 0:56:41.400 of because his power and political support was that and 0:56:41.440 --> 0:56:44.279 sort of nationalism. And this is like you know, and 0:56:44.400 --> 0:56:46.880 and there's always just the sort of liberal line on 0:56:47.080 --> 0:56:49.759 on on Putin. He's like, oh, he's an SKGB guy, 0:56:49.920 --> 0:56:52.160 and like oh, it's still communism again. And it's like no, 0:56:53.320 --> 0:56:55.880 like no, no, and and that this this brings me 0:56:56.000 --> 0:56:58.840 back to the single thing that I I need everyone 0:56:58.880 --> 0:57:00.839 to understand about, need to listen, which is that near 0:57:00.920 --> 0:57:03.400 liberalism does not decrease the size of the state. Like 0:57:03.640 --> 0:57:06.719 there there were more there were more bureaucrats now in 0:57:06.800 --> 0:57:09.960 the Russian State than there were under the Soviet Union. No, 0:57:10.160 --> 0:57:12.480 And it definitely and in order for it to operate, 0:57:12.520 --> 0:57:16.600 it definitely extends drastically that like the hands of the 0:57:16.680 --> 0:57:21.040 state in terms of like like like military police, law enforcement, 0:57:21.360 --> 0:57:23.640 like all those things. In order to keep this weird 0:57:24.280 --> 0:57:27.040 market driven thing alive, you need to have a lot 0:57:27.160 --> 0:57:30.600 of like enforcement on people who don't have but both 0:57:30.720 --> 0:57:32.920 both people who like actually make money and then but 0:57:33.040 --> 0:57:34.640 most of the people who don't make very much money. 0:57:35.800 --> 0:57:38.720 So it increases not only like the bureaucratic state, but 0:57:38.800 --> 0:57:41.600 also like the enforcement armor of the state. Yeah, and 0:57:41.760 --> 0:57:43.960 I think there's there's there's there's there's two interesting ways 0:57:44.000 --> 0:57:48.560 this happens. One is that, well, okay, there's three ways happens. 0:57:48.640 --> 0:57:50.720 One is that anytime someone says they're gonna they're gonna 0:57:50.720 --> 0:57:53.440 do deregulation, like deregulation does not mean that they're going 0:57:53.480 --> 0:57:55.480 to decrease the number of regulations there are. What it 0:57:55.560 --> 0:57:59.440 means is that the regulations are bad for this company, 0:58:00.160 --> 0:58:01.800 and so they're they're going they're going to they're going 0:58:01.880 --> 0:58:03.760 to add more regulations in a way that is good 0:58:03.840 --> 0:58:06.680 for this company. And the thing is that this actually 0:58:06.760 --> 0:58:09.200 this you know, this net increases the size of the state. 0:58:09.320 --> 0:58:11.000 Right there. They're not like they're not like they're not 0:58:11.240 --> 0:58:14.240 decreasing the number of laws or whatever. They're you know, 0:58:14.320 --> 0:58:18.280 they're they're they're they're they're writing like incredibly like absolutely 0:58:18.360 --> 0:58:22.960 incomprehensible banking legislation that like, let's banks charge like interest 0:58:23.080 --> 0:58:26.400 rates that previously only organized crime could do. And then 0:58:26.520 --> 0:58:28.800 there's there's another aspect of this, which is that, you know, 0:58:28.960 --> 0:58:32.400 so the the welfare that remains right, you know, it 0:58:32.440 --> 0:58:35.480 becomes means tested, and you know that means that there's 0:58:35.560 --> 0:58:38.400 so you have the bureaucracy right that like gives you things, 0:58:38.960 --> 0:58:41.120 and then you have another bureaucracy on top of that 0:58:41.240 --> 0:58:43.400 that decides whether or not you should be allowed to 0:58:43.480 --> 0:58:44.960 do the thing it puts you know, there's this this 0:58:45.080 --> 0:58:49.400 is just just this like process of abject humiliation that 0:58:49.480 --> 0:58:51.760 you have to go to to receive anything, yeah, from 0:58:51.800 --> 0:58:53.480 the state. And it's like and that sucks. And then 0:58:54.000 --> 0:58:57.080 because that is so awful, there's another layer of bureaucracy, 0:58:57.120 --> 0:58:59.760 which is like social workers and stuff, whose job it is, 0:58:59.840 --> 0:59:02.560 in large part, is to help you bypass the second 0:59:02.640 --> 0:59:05.840 layer of bureaucracy. So that creates another layer. Yeah, there's 0:59:05.840 --> 0:59:09.160 there's there's there's so much. Yeah it is, and but 0:59:09.280 --> 0:59:10.600 but this is you know this, this this is one 0:59:10.600 --> 0:59:12.720 of the things in the liberals do, which is okay, 0:59:12.760 --> 0:59:14.440 so you know, you you have you have, you have 0:59:14.560 --> 0:59:17.000 your two doctrines. Right, you have the thing they actually believe, 0:59:17.080 --> 0:59:20.520 which is enormous, bureaucratic, military state, and then you have 0:59:20.680 --> 0:59:22.440 the thing they claim to believe, which is, oh, the 0:59:22.480 --> 0:59:26.400 state needs to be smaller, state needs to be decentralized, 0:59:26.440 --> 0:59:28.600 the state shouldn't it you fear in the market. And 0:59:28.720 --> 0:59:31.360 so whenever, whenever, like the things that they do get 0:59:31.440 --> 0:59:33.520 too bad, they have this other thing that can turn 0:59:33.560 --> 0:59:35.480 to you to go, oh, yeah, the reason there's too 0:59:35.560 --> 0:59:37.920 much bureaucracy is because the state's getting involved too much. 0:59:37.920 --> 0:59:39.640 Elect us and we will get rid of the bureaucracy. 0:59:39.880 --> 0:59:41.520 And then you elect them and they make the state bigger, 0:59:41.560 --> 0:59:44.600 and you know, you get this started perpetual cycle. I 0:59:44.720 --> 0:59:47.120 think the reason people get confused by this is that 0:59:49.200 --> 0:59:52.200 when when people when most people think of the state, right, 0:59:52.320 --> 0:59:54.640 they think of the state is something that provide services. 0:59:54.680 --> 0:59:56.800 You know that the quintessential thing of state does is 0:59:56.840 --> 1:00:01.080 build roads roads. Yeah, you know, you know when we 1:00:01.120 --> 1:00:04.360 can talk about how like the US building roads probably 1:00:04.880 --> 1:00:08.000 doomed the entire earth climate change. Oh yeah, no, like 1:00:08.240 --> 1:00:10.880 the way that we've done roads around cars and the 1:00:10.960 --> 1:00:13.280 type of things we make roads. Yeah it's horrible, but 1:00:13.400 --> 1:00:15.600 yeah it's awful. Yeah, but but there there's there's there's 1:00:15.600 --> 1:00:17.760 another thing about roads which is interesting, which is that 1:00:18.720 --> 1:00:22.480 roads are you know, so the original reason why states 1:00:22.520 --> 1:00:25.560 built roads was they can move armies around and and 1:00:25.680 --> 1:00:28.800 this comes back to the core of what a state is. Right, 1:00:29.720 --> 1:00:32.840 there is nothing in the actual core definition of a state, 1:00:32.920 --> 1:00:35.400 which is basically it's a hierarch couple of localized monopoly 1:00:35.480 --> 1:00:39.400 on violence. Right, there's nothing in that that has that 1:00:40.000 --> 1:00:42.080 like says at all the state has to do anything 1:00:42.160 --> 1:00:45.120 for you, right, like if if you know, if two 1:00:45.520 --> 1:00:48.600 guys with guns show up and sees a place, right, 1:00:48.880 --> 1:00:51.080 they can create a state. They don't have to give 1:00:51.120 --> 1:00:55.040 you anything. The state is the fundamental core of the 1:00:55.160 --> 1:00:57.040 state is just a bunch of armed people who can 1:00:57.120 --> 1:01:00.760 order people around and you know, people people sort of 1:01:00.800 --> 1:01:04.680 can people sort of confuse the two. And the neoliberalisms 1:01:04.840 --> 1:01:07.720 entire thing is increasing the increasing the military, you know 1:01:07.800 --> 1:01:09.360 that the part of the state that takes things from 1:01:09.400 --> 1:01:12.320 you at gunpoint and decreasing the part of the states 1:01:12.640 --> 1:01:16.680 that like gives you things. And you know, one of 1:01:16.760 --> 1:01:19.080 one of the there's one of one of the other 1:01:19.160 --> 1:01:23.080 things that that happens in this period is that labor 1:01:23.200 --> 1:01:28.080 increasingly stops being about making or doing anything and just 1:01:28.200 --> 1:01:34.160 becomes pure guard labor. So, you know, the the the 1:01:35.880 --> 1:01:39.880 last big neliberal project that doesn't really get talked about 1:01:39.880 --> 1:01:42.720 as a deliberal project ever, is that mass incarceration is 1:01:42.720 --> 1:01:46.600 a deliberal project. It started under under Nixon and under Carter. 1:01:47.360 --> 1:01:49.360 But you know, so when when Reagan takes office that 1:01:49.400 --> 1:01:53.560 the American prison population is about three thousand. When he 1:01:53.720 --> 1:01:56.960 leaves office, he has basically doubled it to uh six 1:01:57.640 --> 1:01:59.800 seven thousand. We have now more than doubled it again. 1:02:00.280 --> 1:02:02.600 And you know it it basically it You know when 1:02:02.600 --> 1:02:04.480 whenever you get a large near liiberal administration that they 1:02:04.520 --> 1:02:07.960 you know, they double it, right, it basically doubles again 1:02:08.920 --> 1:02:12.560 dreamed between the Clinton administration, you know, it keeps accelerating 1:02:12.880 --> 1:02:15.200 and you know this is this is this is the 1:02:15.280 --> 1:02:20.440 other thing that that neoliberalism brings in, which is that okay, 1:02:20.520 --> 1:02:23.600 so near liberals and produces this enormous population of people 1:02:23.720 --> 1:02:26.120 who don't have any jobs, have no opportunities whatsoever, are 1:02:26.160 --> 1:02:27.880 just screwed. So what do you do with them? And 1:02:27.920 --> 1:02:32.280 the answer is slavery and basically everywhere that you stay 1:02:32.360 --> 1:02:36.480 using neoliberalism, you see massive increases into prison population. Espect 1:02:36.480 --> 1:02:39.160 like the US is by far the worst example of this, 1:02:39.320 --> 1:02:41.240 but this happens. You know that the seven is basically 1:02:41.240 --> 1:02:46.600 across the world and what what what you see is 1:02:47.000 --> 1:02:49.480 in place of you know, it's this is this one 1:02:49.480 --> 1:02:51.320 of the things that dries politics in sort of in 1:02:51.400 --> 1:02:53.680 real reasons in the US, which is that you have 1:02:53.760 --> 1:02:55.760 these places that used to sort of have industry is used, 1:02:55.800 --> 1:02:59.120 particularly like coal mining, things like that, and it gets 1:02:59.160 --> 1:03:02.280 replaced by prison because prisons, you know, having a prison 1:03:02.400 --> 1:03:04.080 in your sort of rural town is is the only 1:03:04.120 --> 1:03:07.280 way to sort of ensure that you have a large 1:03:07.320 --> 1:03:09.760 economic base. And so you know, like local local city 1:03:09.800 --> 1:03:13.200 councils are you know, incredibly pro prison because it's like, oh, 1:03:13.200 --> 1:03:16.040 well the president would bring your jobs and you know 1:03:16.240 --> 1:03:19.360 this means that okay, so so so the people a 1:03:19.400 --> 1:03:22.320 lot of people who are prison guards are just you know, fascists. 1:03:23.320 --> 1:03:26.320 But there's also people who are prison guards who normally 1:03:26.400 --> 1:03:29.120 would just be workers. Yeah no, absolutely, yeah, who have 1:03:29.200 --> 1:03:30.720 just been sort of but you know, there's nothing left 1:03:30.880 --> 1:03:33.640 right and they they're fighting, Uh Mike Davis talks about this, 1:03:33.680 --> 1:03:38.520 that they're fighting this just incredibly desperate, ferocious struggle to 1:03:38.640 --> 1:03:40.560 like stay in the places they love and stay with 1:03:40.640 --> 1:03:42.880 their families, and stay with their friends, stay with their communities. 1:03:43.680 --> 1:03:45.960 And the only way they can do this is, you know, 1:03:46.160 --> 1:03:50.200 by becoming part of this like just the neo liberal 1:03:50.280 --> 1:03:52.800 health state. And you know, they don't like it either, 1:03:54.360 --> 1:03:56.920 but that's you know, that's what the liberalism is, right, 1:03:57.080 --> 1:03:59.240 is you no longer have a job. The only job 1:03:59.280 --> 1:04:02.240 available to you is picking up a gun and pointing 1:04:02.280 --> 1:04:04.360 it at someone who is exactly the same as you, 1:04:04.840 --> 1:04:09.640 except you know, they've been thrown into the slavery part 1:04:09.680 --> 1:04:11.480 of the system instead of the people holding the guns 1:04:11.520 --> 1:04:14.080 at the slavery part of the system. And one of 1:04:14.120 --> 1:04:16.120 the things that that happens a lot of people just 1:04:17.640 --> 1:04:21.760 really conflate about what neoliberalism is is they can use 1:04:21.800 --> 1:04:26.200 it libertarianism, yes, and they're not the same thing. And 1:04:26.480 --> 1:04:28.840 and this, this is a condus is a very confusing 1:04:28.880 --> 1:04:32.080 problem because well, a, the term nea liberals don't get 1:04:32.160 --> 1:04:35.040 used in the US all that much. When people use it, 1:04:35.200 --> 1:04:38.240 they usually use it to mean something bad. And that's 1:04:38.360 --> 1:04:42.480 just about it. Yeah, yeah, and and you know, and 1:04:42.720 --> 1:04:45.200 and also another part of the problem is that even 1:04:45.240 --> 1:04:47.640 if you go into like the Montpellion Society, right, which 1:04:47.800 --> 1:04:49.120 you know this is this is this is the arch 1:04:49.200 --> 1:04:52.360 de liberal institution, and it's just like basically like a 1:04:52.440 --> 1:04:55.880 think tank generator. There are there are libertarians in there. 1:04:55.880 --> 1:04:59.320 There there are there are narco capitalists in the Montpellion Society, 1:05:00.120 --> 1:05:02.040 and the one Pillion Society is fighting this sort of 1:05:02.120 --> 1:05:05.000 constant internal battle between the people who actually believe the 1:05:05.080 --> 1:05:07.000 things that they say publicly, like you actually believe you 1:05:07.040 --> 1:05:08.840 should have a small state blah bla blah blah blah, 1:05:09.080 --> 1:05:11.920 and the people who understand that all the small states 1:05:11.920 --> 1:05:15.240 stuff is just like stuff you tell the masses in 1:05:15.440 --> 1:05:18.200 order to get them to like slash welfare things, while 1:05:18.240 --> 1:05:21.560 you just hire more cops. And probably the single biggest 1:05:22.160 --> 1:05:25.680 distinction between the libertarians and and the New Liberals is 1:05:25.680 --> 1:05:28.680 about border control. Now, if if you listen to New 1:05:28.720 --> 1:05:30.880 Liberals on Twitter, or you listen to Neil or you 1:05:30.960 --> 1:05:34.320 listen to libertarians, right, capitalism is supposed to have open borders, 1:05:34.320 --> 1:05:37.920 is supposed to be free movement to people, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Um, 1:05:38.720 --> 1:05:42.160 if you look at literally everything every neo liberal government 1:05:42.200 --> 1:05:45.680 has ever done, it's exactly the opposite. They don't like that. Yeah, yeah, 1:05:45.720 --> 1:05:47.560 they hit it. And and you know, the this whole 1:05:47.600 --> 1:05:51.439 thing about like oh you need workers to uh yeah, 1:05:51.440 --> 1:05:52.840 if if you, if you, if you let workers from 1:05:52.840 --> 1:05:55.919 other countries go into into the US, like oh they'll 1:05:55.960 --> 1:05:59.880 they'll they'll decreased wages, blah blah blah blah. So the 1:06:00.160 --> 1:06:02.840 the period in which the US like had strong unions 1:06:02.880 --> 1:06:04.600 and strong wages and stuff, with the period where there 1:06:04.680 --> 1:06:07.080 was like basically no militarization on the Mexican border. I mean, 1:06:07.080 --> 1:06:09.120 there were some and you know there there's there's there's 1:06:09.240 --> 1:06:12.240 a build up sort of dream the Vietnam War and 1:06:13.320 --> 1:06:16.680 they're they're they're sort of been one back like around 1:06:16.680 --> 1:06:20.120 election revolution era. But you know it's it's nothing. It's 1:06:20.200 --> 1:06:23.680 literally nothing like it is today today. The US border 1:06:23.920 --> 1:06:27.440 is this just absolute hellscape. Um. I mean just like 1:06:27.920 --> 1:06:29.960 there's there's there's this enormous perimeter of the U. S 1:06:30.000 --> 1:06:32.600 border where just the Constitution doesn't apply, where like the 1:06:32.640 --> 1:06:34.880 Bill of Rights just doesn't exist. If if if you're 1:06:34.920 --> 1:06:36.280 if you're if you're close enough to the border, it's 1:06:36.280 --> 1:06:39.080 just it's all suspended. Uh, it's not entirely supended, but 1:06:39.240 --> 1:06:41.280 like basically the border patrol can just do whatever the 1:06:41.320 --> 1:06:43.960 funk they want to you, and you know, like this, this, 1:06:44.080 --> 1:06:45.640 this is this is how the border patrol was able 1:06:45.640 --> 1:06:47.600 to be deployed in Portland, right because Portland's technically on 1:06:47.640 --> 1:06:49.920 the border and the border patrol has increased power is 1:06:49.960 --> 1:06:56.240 there and the actual goal is so people people are 1:06:56.320 --> 1:06:59.160 always going to move right, And what with the New 1:06:59.240 --> 1:07:02.480 Labels figured out was that you know, these these these 1:07:02.560 --> 1:07:06.720 enormous miket labor populations, the best way you could exploit 1:07:06.760 --> 1:07:10.040 them as if they're just absolutely terrorized by just this, 1:07:10.440 --> 1:07:15.680 you know, an incredible sort of ferociously hostile, murderous just 1:07:15.920 --> 1:07:21.080 border regime run by fascists. And it works, like they kill, 1:07:21.160 --> 1:07:23.920 they kill enormous numbers of people, They do horrible things, 1:07:24.000 --> 1:07:28.120 They put people with concentration camps, They sterilize people they like, 1:07:28.440 --> 1:07:32.880 they sexually assault children, they disappear people they like, still 1:07:32.960 --> 1:07:37.320 people's babies. And this is you know, this is what 1:07:37.440 --> 1:07:39.560 neoliberalism is, right, This, this is what it actually is 1:07:39.600 --> 1:07:42.880 in practice. This is you know, like, this is the 1:07:43.400 --> 1:07:45.360 this is the this is the policy that is imposed 1:07:45.400 --> 1:07:50.000 by they liberal states. And I think I want to 1:07:50.120 --> 1:07:53.360 end on that and I want to end on a 1:07:53.520 --> 1:07:58.000 note about what the quintessential sort of figure of neoliberalism is, 1:07:58.160 --> 1:08:01.040 because I think, you know, in the neil liberal's mind, right, 1:08:01.120 --> 1:08:05.560 the quintessential neo liberal figure is like the small entrepreneur 1:08:05.800 --> 1:08:09.960 who's like guy who's you know, turned their own creativity 1:08:10.040 --> 1:08:13.840 and like harnessed it into like the ability to create value, 1:08:14.120 --> 1:08:15.840 and you know, they're creating things in the world and 1:08:15.880 --> 1:08:18.799 they're reaching themselves. And I think a lot of leftists 1:08:18.960 --> 1:08:22.240 think of it as like the quintessial the liberal is 1:08:22.600 --> 1:08:26.320 you know, a Chicago, Chicago School of Economics person. Yeah, 1:08:27.360 --> 1:08:29.720 and I want to suggest that they quit. The single 1:08:29.800 --> 1:08:34.880 quintessential like neo liberal figure is a riot cop, and 1:08:34.960 --> 1:08:38.760 specifically specifically that the you know, if if you know, 1:08:39.240 --> 1:08:41.760 if every everyone by now knows what a riot cop 1:08:41.840 --> 1:08:47.080 looks like, right, I want everyone to go back and 1:08:47.320 --> 1:08:50.000 even even from from like two thousand one, look at 1:08:50.040 --> 1:08:52.880 what a riot police officer looks like in two thousand 1:08:52.960 --> 1:08:56.000 one versus what they look like now. And then go 1:08:56.160 --> 1:08:59.160 back to even like the nineteen sixties and look look 1:08:59.200 --> 1:09:01.439 at look at what the those guys look like. Yeah, 1:09:01.439 --> 1:09:03.280 I know, looking at the footage from the sixties and 1:09:03.400 --> 1:09:06.680 riot cops is like really depressing because they're like, I 1:09:06.760 --> 1:09:10.599 could take these guys. Yeah, they're they're just wearing T shirts. 1:09:11.240 --> 1:09:13.920 They're just guys. It's it's way more of a fair fight. 1:09:14.200 --> 1:09:16.080 They have T shirts and sticks. We could have T 1:09:16.200 --> 1:09:18.960 shirts and sticks. That is that it's like the a 1:09:19.160 --> 1:09:21.559 riot of the sixties. It sounds like now they also 1:09:21.720 --> 1:09:23.800 in some cases will be much more willing just to 1:09:23.880 --> 1:09:26.760 murder tons of people. Now there is that exception, but 1:09:27.880 --> 1:09:30.800 in like a big street brawl, it is it is 1:09:30.920 --> 1:09:33.040 generally a bit of a fair fight. I mean, I 1:09:33.240 --> 1:09:37.080 will say also sixties police love love dogs. They love 1:09:37.160 --> 1:09:41.320 like sicking dogs people, which is really bad. Yeah, I'm 1:09:41.560 --> 1:09:43.240 I'm looking at the looking at at the two thousand 1:09:43.280 --> 1:09:46.800 one riot cops, and yeah, they are not nearly as 1:09:47.120 --> 1:09:51.360 robo copy. That's what they are now. Drin the Tin 1:09:51.479 --> 1:09:55.519 Chilean uprising in I was talking to someone in Chile 1:09:55.640 --> 1:09:58.960 and they were talking about how like they were describing 1:09:59.000 --> 1:10:00.840 it as like the cop we're just like like something 1:10:00.880 --> 1:10:02.519 had a change, beating Ninja turtles like it was like 1:10:02.560 --> 1:10:07.920 fighting the shredder. There's even even even the L. A. P. D. 1:10:08.240 --> 1:10:12.439 Riot cops for the nineteen two riots. They're also still 1:10:12.520 --> 1:10:15.560 just wearing like shirts like they just have they just 1:10:15.640 --> 1:10:19.200 have colored shirts and one stick. Yeah and now versus 1:10:19.320 --> 1:10:22.519 now they're wearing there whatever dumb armor they have. Yeah. 1:10:22.640 --> 1:10:24.160 But you know, and this is this is you know 1:10:24.200 --> 1:10:25.599 and this this is this is if if you want 1:10:25.640 --> 1:10:28.439 to trace the path in near liberalism, it's this. It's 1:10:28.960 --> 1:10:33.439 a lot of the army surplus stuff that like the 1:10:33.520 --> 1:10:35.800 police have gotten a lot of. It's really scary. A 1:10:35.880 --> 1:10:38.120 lot of it also sucks, like a lot of those 1:10:38.160 --> 1:10:40.280 a t v S. Every like everyone who's ever had 1:10:40.320 --> 1:10:43.200 the drive them hates them. But you know, like like 1:10:43.280 --> 1:10:46.599 my my like absolutely tiny dinky town has a bear 1:10:46.680 --> 1:10:51.479 cat and that shouldn't that shouldn't be. And I know 1:10:51.560 --> 1:10:55.240 where it is too, I know where the bear cat is. 1:10:55.320 --> 1:10:58.639 It's like, there shouldn't be a bear cat. My town 1:10:58.880 --> 1:11:01.679 is a tax cutout, like it's it's literally a tax 1:11:01.760 --> 1:11:03.320 carve out like that that's the reason, that's the really 1:11:03.360 --> 1:11:05.920 reason it exists. And it has a bear cat, And like, 1:11:06.680 --> 1:11:08.560 you know, this is this is sort of the this 1:11:08.640 --> 1:11:11.400 is the consequence of of of what neoliberalism, isn't it. 1:11:12.360 --> 1:11:14.720 Vicky usta Well talked about this on on on the 1:11:14.760 --> 1:11:17.800 Occupy episode it's it's the cops become more like, become 1:11:17.840 --> 1:11:19.759 more like the army. The army becomes more like the cops. 1:11:21.160 --> 1:11:25.080 And you know, the the result is this sort of 1:11:25.120 --> 1:11:28.320 pent opticn surveillance states where like if you and seven 1:11:28.360 --> 1:11:32.360 people stand on a sidewalk, sixteen cops will show up. Yeah, 1:11:32.439 --> 1:11:37.519 they've they've really uh excelled in making the capitalist realism 1:11:38.120 --> 1:11:42.679 Dumer philosophy be almost like the base philosophy for anyone 1:11:42.760 --> 1:11:44.760 who takes two seconds to think about the world that 1:11:44.800 --> 1:11:47.559 they live in. And you know, and this has been 1:11:47.600 --> 1:11:51.880 really effective in a lot of ways. But you know, 1:11:52.400 --> 1:11:54.960 David Graeber point had pointed this out, which is that 1:11:55.800 --> 1:11:58.920 the problem with doing this is that, you know, okay, 1:11:58.960 --> 1:12:01.200 so like the the norm was some amount of guard labor, right, 1:12:01.240 --> 1:12:04.120 the enormous amount of sort of prison guards. Like that's 1:12:04.120 --> 1:12:07.200 all unproductive labor, right. You know, you you you make 1:12:07.280 --> 1:12:09.080 you make some of that money back off that the 1:12:09.120 --> 1:12:11.240 companies make some of the money back off the slave labor. Right. 1:12:12.080 --> 1:12:15.160 But like, but that in general there the guards aren't 1:12:15.560 --> 1:12:18.800 adding anything. They're not they're not they're not producing any 1:12:19.720 --> 1:12:23.600 goods um and not really much service either. No, and 1:12:23.720 --> 1:12:25.439 and and this is you know this this this is 1:12:25.439 --> 1:12:28.120 a problem, right because because neoliberalism is profit driven, and 1:12:28.240 --> 1:12:30.400 so you know, what you have is is that the 1:12:30.560 --> 1:12:34.120 system has a choice between either it functioning or it 1:12:34.320 --> 1:12:37.320 making it appear as if it's the only system. And 1:12:39.000 --> 1:12:40.880 that's the thing is that it's it's it's kind of 1:12:40.960 --> 1:12:44.320 profit driven. But honestly, the more that I the more 1:12:44.360 --> 1:12:47.080 that you've been talking like, no, it's just about eliminating 1:12:47.200 --> 1:12:50.000 any alternative. So it's not not even profit driven. It's 1:12:50.040 --> 1:12:54.639 that it's forcing itself to be the only acceptable option. Yeah, 1:12:54.720 --> 1:12:58.760 that's how it gets so much of its power. Yeah, 1:12:58.800 --> 1:13:01.840 but but you know, the the problem with this is 1:13:02.000 --> 1:13:06.439 that all of that sort of ideological coercion only last 1:13:06.560 --> 1:13:09.960 as long as the police can hold the streets, which 1:13:10.120 --> 1:13:14.240 is which is they're good at it there, They're sometimes 1:13:14.280 --> 1:13:16.920 they're decent. You know. One of the story I want 1:13:16.960 --> 1:13:21.880 to end on is so there's you know, there has 1:13:22.000 --> 1:13:26.280 been in some with more varying degrees of success, there 1:13:26.360 --> 1:13:30.840 has actually been resistance in neoliberalism. And there are places 1:13:30.840 --> 1:13:32.720 where people have won the people. There are places where 1:13:32.720 --> 1:13:34.320 people have run the I m f out those people. 1:13:34.400 --> 1:13:37.240 There's places where people have you know, defeated coups where 1:13:37.280 --> 1:13:40.519 they've like you know, where they've where they've they've they've 1:13:40.520 --> 1:13:43.200 successfully sort of taken over the state. There's places where 1:13:43.960 --> 1:13:46.880 you know, I mean there's there's there's places like you know, 1:13:46.920 --> 1:13:49.080 we're gonna talk about couple of things in Mexico, but yeah, 1:13:49.080 --> 1:13:51.360 I mean there's there's the Appetittas who have you know, 1:13:51.400 --> 1:13:54.320 are constantly besieged, but have carved out a territory in 1:13:54.400 --> 1:13:57.479 which they have you know, like totally defeated the Mexican 1:13:57.560 --> 1:14:01.800 almost really defeated the Mexican state. And I think one 1:14:01.840 --> 1:14:05.920 of the sort of forgotten incidents in in the two 1:14:06.000 --> 1:14:09.639 thousands is this uprising in Wahaka where the yeah, yeah, 1:14:09.640 --> 1:14:11.360 there's a there's an enormous sort of a bunch of 1:14:11.400 --> 1:14:15.519 teachers are going on strike. And you know, Wahawka's teaching 1:14:15.600 --> 1:14:18.960 unions are enormously powerful, incredibly radical, and so you know 1:14:19.080 --> 1:14:20.519 that they one of the things they do is that 1:14:20.680 --> 1:14:22.920 they go into the city and they have these like 1:14:23.040 --> 1:14:24.920 these giants start of protest tents that they showed up 1:14:24.920 --> 1:14:27.840 and they have these like giant camps and she just 1:14:28.000 --> 1:14:31.080 in six the police attack them, and so they start 1:14:31.120 --> 1:14:34.200 attacking and and the teachers fight back, and so you 1:14:34.439 --> 1:14:36.559 have there this you know this, this this massive battle 1:14:36.960 --> 1:14:40.680 erupts um just in this city and you know this 1:14:40.760 --> 1:14:42.280 is this is all the police attack at like three 1:14:42.320 --> 1:14:45.519 in the morning, right, but they they there's not enough 1:14:45.560 --> 1:14:47.960 of in the clear teachers out and the teachers hold 1:14:48.720 --> 1:14:51.080 and they hold and they hold, and the city of 1:14:51.120 --> 1:14:54.640 Wahaka wakes up to this just enormous battle in the 1:14:54.720 --> 1:14:57.880 streets between a bunch of like teachers and the cops. 1:14:58.680 --> 1:15:03.040 And when Wahawka wakes up, they are just like what 1:15:03.320 --> 1:15:06.560 the fuck is this? And you know, they joined the 1:15:06.640 --> 1:15:09.920 teachers and they go fight the cops and they they 1:15:10.000 --> 1:15:13.880 they're largely successful in like like they beat them, they drive, 1:15:13.960 --> 1:15:17.760 they drive the police from the city and you know, 1:15:17.880 --> 1:15:20.280 and and for for for for for several months, the 1:15:20.320 --> 1:15:22.559 city is basically under the control of these like direct 1:15:22.600 --> 1:15:25.960 democratic councils and like they're there are these there are 1:15:25.960 --> 1:15:27.760 these things they call the mega marshes, which just a 1:15:27.880 --> 1:15:30.439 million people will do a march to the streets and 1:15:30.479 --> 1:15:32.519 the police there's the police just can't stop them because 1:15:32.640 --> 1:15:35.559 you know, there's a million people and yeah, that's that's 1:15:35.560 --> 1:15:37.679 the only way that I've seen that be successful, whether 1:15:37.720 --> 1:15:40.960 it be you know, just to sure sheer massive people 1:15:41.040 --> 1:15:44.200 driving cops out of a police station, or you know, 1:15:44.360 --> 1:15:47.880 an entire city rallying behind people like in in in 1:15:48.000 --> 1:15:50.280 Portland when the fence came, it's like you need to 1:15:50.320 --> 1:15:54.320 have like everybody to show up because they could fight 1:15:54.520 --> 1:16:00.160 two hundred like twin canarchists. They're pretty easily you usually, um, 1:16:00.400 --> 1:16:02.560 but when you have like all of the moms and 1:16:02.680 --> 1:16:04.800 dads and regular people come up, that is much more 1:16:04.800 --> 1:16:08.599 of a complicated of fight on like on on their end, 1:16:08.960 --> 1:16:12.160 because yeah, we'll still have the teenage front liners throwing 1:16:12.800 --> 1:16:16.280 at the cops, but when you have like regular people 1:16:16.320 --> 1:16:19.160 behind them, that creates the whole media narrative to be 1:16:19.360 --> 1:16:24.000 something totally different. And it got the feds to back 1:16:24.080 --> 1:16:28.240 down in Portland when Trump really wanted to not happen. 1:16:28.960 --> 1:16:30.519 And I think also the thing, the thing that that 1:16:30.600 --> 1:16:32.840 was increding incredible hawky is it wasn't just people sort 1:16:32.840 --> 1:16:35.400 of like standing behind them, like maybe like tens of 1:16:35.439 --> 1:16:38.800 thousands of people just joined the fight in in in 1:16:38.880 --> 1:16:40.920 a way that you know it like if you know, 1:16:40.960 --> 1:16:43.040 if if there's like fifty thou people in a city 1:16:43.160 --> 1:16:45.320 throwing bricks at you like you you either have to 1:16:45.320 --> 1:16:47.280 start shooting into the crowd or try to hold them. 1:16:47.360 --> 1:16:49.840 Can't you can't. And even when he start shooting into 1:16:49.840 --> 1:16:52.880 the crowd, Yeah, they tried it and it made it 1:16:53.000 --> 1:16:55.920 made even people the crowds were larger, and like, you know, 1:16:56.000 --> 1:16:59.840 one of the things that happens is that the revolutionaries 1:16:59.840 --> 1:17:01.800 try to like you know, they go to the radio 1:17:01.840 --> 1:17:03.519 station or like okay, well you broadcast this. The radio 1:17:03.520 --> 1:17:05.960 station says no, and so they start seizing radio stations 1:17:05.960 --> 1:17:09.120 all over all over the city. Yeah, and they yeah, 1:17:09.160 --> 1:17:10.280 and then you know, and then they had they had 1:17:10.320 --> 1:17:11.720 these they had these like bonfire at the edge of 1:17:11.720 --> 1:17:13.120 the city where if one's at the meets and like 1:17:13.200 --> 1:17:15.960 they're there's they're they're sending their they're they're sending radio 1:17:16.200 --> 1:17:19.040 like messages like over the radio stations they've taken over 1:17:19.160 --> 1:17:24.439 from like barricade to barricade, and you know, eventually the 1:17:24.520 --> 1:17:27.400 police and like the like the Mexican Army shows up 1:17:27.880 --> 1:17:29.759 and at that point they're able to sort of retake 1:17:29.800 --> 1:17:33.080 the city. And there's a couple of other things happening 1:17:33.120 --> 1:17:34.640 in Mexico at this point that are sort of this 1:17:34.720 --> 1:17:38.240 is giants sort of left wing tide, and the way 1:17:38.280 --> 1:17:42.439 that it gets stopped is that the Mexican army basically 1:17:42.520 --> 1:17:47.040 fully kicks off the drug war and they kill I mean, 1:17:48.760 --> 1:17:52.080 I've seen numbers up to like eight hundred thousand people 1:17:52.160 --> 1:17:56.160 in ten years. They just they basic they basically genocides 1:17:56.320 --> 1:18:02.240 the indigenous population of of of Mexico. And you know, 1:18:02.560 --> 1:18:04.640 I think I think that's that's that's sort of a 1:18:04.720 --> 1:18:09.760 place to leave it because more hopeful note to end 1:18:09.760 --> 1:18:11.559 to the show on. Yeah, but I mean I think 1:18:11.560 --> 1:18:13.240 I think it is it is worth it is you know, 1:18:13.360 --> 1:18:15.800 it's it's it's it's worth thinking about. Is one. It 1:18:15.920 --> 1:18:19.880 is possible to beat the police too. The ruling class 1:18:19.960 --> 1:18:24.240 will literally bathe the entire country in blood, like they 1:18:24.280 --> 1:18:28.000 will destroy their own country. Is different the way I 1:18:28.080 --> 1:18:30.840 mean this gets discussed and sell happen here, But like 1:18:30.880 --> 1:18:33.479 the way the American military works, I think it will 1:18:33.520 --> 1:18:36.120 be less likely to do that. Yeah, well, I mean, 1:18:36.120 --> 1:18:37.680 and I want I want to put this o. Like 1:18:37.720 --> 1:18:41.559 so the thing that the army doesn't directly murder people 1:18:41.600 --> 1:18:43.160 what they do is but what they do is basically 1:18:43.240 --> 1:18:48.000 like they they set off a bunch of fighting between 1:18:48.040 --> 1:18:52.080 the cartels and then and the cartels fucking murder enormous 1:18:52.120 --> 1:18:54.760 members people you know it will happily murder each other. 1:18:54.960 --> 1:18:56.960 But yeah, yeah, well and also you know, I mean 1:18:57.160 --> 1:18:58.599 it's it's also this is this is you know, it's 1:18:58.600 --> 1:18:59.960 the thing with the MYSIC and state. It's it's very, 1:19:00.200 --> 1:19:02.720 very difficult to tell where the Gartels stop and where 1:19:02.760 --> 1:19:04.800 the Mexican Army begins because a lot of them are 1:19:04.880 --> 1:19:07.719 the same thing. And like you know that there's yeah, 1:19:08.320 --> 1:19:12.439 that's hopeful. Note to end on and just but just 1:19:12.560 --> 1:19:14.599 to make the ending a bit better, I do want 1:19:14.640 --> 1:19:18.920 to say I'm no longer going to call anyone, uh neoliberal. 1:19:19.320 --> 1:19:22.000 I made this joke in the group chat yesterday and 1:19:22.040 --> 1:19:23.800 nobody responded to it, so it was set. So I'll 1:19:23.800 --> 1:19:26.719 say it now. I'm only going to call them Thomas 1:19:26.800 --> 1:19:30.760 Anderson liberals. That that that that that's that is what 1:19:30.840 --> 1:19:34.840 I'm calling them now. Um, and I'll make everyone wait 1:19:35.000 --> 1:19:37.639 two seconds to understand what's going on and then sigh 1:19:37.720 --> 1:19:39.880 and then motion to get me out of the room. 1:19:40.200 --> 1:19:46.320 So thank you Chris for talking about the prom and 1:19:46.520 --> 1:19:48.920 thank thank thank thank you all for joining us. That 1:19:49.080 --> 1:19:52.160 this this has been NI could happen here. Um. You 1:19:52.200 --> 1:19:55.599 can find us on Instagram and Twitter. If you so desire, 1:19:56.040 --> 1:19:57.840 if you want to get, if you want, if you 1:19:57.880 --> 1:20:00.640 want people to know that you follow us, create a 1:20:00.680 --> 1:20:03.240 whole network of surveillance based so everyone knows what you're 1:20:03.280 --> 1:20:05.240 watching and what you're listening to, to create a better 1:20:05.320 --> 1:20:08.240 picture for you are online so you can get better advertisements. Yeah, 1:20:08.320 --> 1:20:12.360 follow us online. Yeah, joined the Panopticon. Throw bricks at it. 1:20:12.800 --> 1:20:15.240 It is pretty funny how they tricked everyone into carrying 1:20:15.280 --> 1:20:19.280 around gps is wherever they go. It's it's pretty funny. Yeah, 1:20:19.360 --> 1:20:22.240 it's it's amazing. It's like, oh, everyone, everyone, everyone in 1:20:22.280 --> 1:20:24.200 my town is like, oh, we can't get the vaccine. 1:20:24.880 --> 1:20:27.080 They have micro trips and it's like you have a phone. 1:20:28.240 --> 1:20:32.799 It's hilarious. They tricked us into carry around speakers, cameras 1:20:32.840 --> 1:20:36.200 and gps is everywhere we go. It is really funny. 1:20:36.240 --> 1:20:48.840 It's amazing, all right. Well, by Funny Fye. I'm Evrodsky, 1:20:48.960 --> 1:20:51.320 author of the New York Times bestseller fair Play and 1:20:51.439 --> 1:20:54.920 Find Your Unicorn Space, activists on the gender division of labor, 1:20:55.120 --> 1:20:58.719 attorney and family mediator. And I'm doctor as eating a rootcar, 1:20:59.000 --> 1:21:02.080 a Harvard physician and medical correspondent with an expertise and 1:21:02.120 --> 1:21:05.840 the science of stress, resilience, mental health, and burnout. We're 1:21:05.920 --> 1:21:09.160 so excited to share our podcast Time Out, a production 1:21:09.240 --> 1:21:13.240 of i Heeart Podcasts and Hello Sunshine. We're uncovering why 1:21:13.320 --> 1:21:15.840 society makes it so hard for women to treat their 1:21:15.880 --> 1:21:18.679 time with the value it deserves. So take this time 1:21:18.720 --> 1:21:21.960 out with us. Listen to Time Out, a fair play 1:21:22.040 --> 1:21:25.640 podcast on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or 1:21:25.680 --> 1:21:30.320 wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Tanya Sam, host of 1:21:30.360 --> 1:21:33.759 The Money Moves podcast powered by Greenwood. This daily podcast 1:21:33.840 --> 1:21:35.800 will help give you the keys to the Kingdom of 1:21:35.840 --> 1:21:40.080 financial stability, wealth and abundance with celebrity guests like Rick Ross, 1:21:40.160 --> 1:21:44.120 Amanda Sill's, angela Ye Roland Martin, JB. Smooth, and Terrell Owens. 1:21:44.280 --> 1:21:46.879 Tune in to learn how to turn liabilities into assets 1:21:46.920 --> 1:21:52.280 and make your money moved by Subscribe to The Money 1:21:52.280 --> 1:21:54.800 Moves Podcast powered by Greenland on the I Heart Radio 1:21:54.840 --> 1:21:57.720 app or wherever you get your podcasts, and make sure 1:21:57.800 --> 1:22:02.920 you leave a review. The Gangster Chronicles podcast is a 1:22:02.960 --> 1:22:07.240 weekly conversation that revolves around underworld and criminals and entertainers 1:22:07.360 --> 1:22:10.639 to victims, crime and law enforcement. We cover all facets 1:22:10.680 --> 1:22:15.280 of the game. Gangster Chronicles podcast doesn't glorify promotilsta of activities. 1:22:15.640 --> 1:22:18.800 We just discussed the ramifications and repercussions of these activities 1:22:18.800 --> 1:22:21.280 because at the Wall she played gamester games. You are 1:22:21.360 --> 1:22:25.160 ultimately rewarded with Gangster prizes. Our Heart Radios number one 1:22:25.240 --> 1:22:28.160 for podcasts, but don't take our award for it. Find 1:22:28.200 --> 1:22:30.960 Against the Chronicles podcast and my Heart Radio app or 1:22:31.000 --> 1:22:42.960 wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to it could happen here. Um. 1:22:43.160 --> 1:22:46.920 The show that is normally introduced by me shouting a tonally, 1:22:47.080 --> 1:22:51.320 but today I did like a professional because today myself 1:22:51.439 --> 1:22:54.519 and my colleagues Garrison and Christopher are talking to someone. 1:22:54.560 --> 1:22:58.439 I'm very excited to chat with Mr Corey. Doctor. Oh Corey, 1:22:58.840 --> 1:23:01.720 Well the show. Thank you very much. It is my 1:23:01.840 --> 1:23:04.120 pleasure to be on it. It's great to meet you 1:23:04.200 --> 1:23:07.120 all and to be talking to you today. Corey. You 1:23:07.320 --> 1:23:10.200 do a lot of writing about kind of technology and 1:23:10.439 --> 1:23:14.759 surveillance and cultural issues around those. You're also an author. 1:23:14.800 --> 1:23:17.120 You've written some great fiction. I think today will probably 1:23:17.600 --> 1:23:20.840 talk most around books like Attack Service and walk Away, 1:23:20.920 --> 1:23:23.560 but you've written a lot of wonderful stuff. Um, and 1:23:23.640 --> 1:23:25.639 you've also worked with the e f F for years 1:23:25.680 --> 1:23:28.280 and years. Um, so you you you're coming at what 1:23:28.360 --> 1:23:30.400 I love about. I mean, we're gonna be talking today 1:23:30.439 --> 1:23:33.200 broadly about surveillance and kind of the future of of 1:23:33.640 --> 1:23:36.120 the Internet, will probably talk about some metaverse e stuff. 1:23:36.520 --> 1:23:39.519 What I love about the way in which you think 1:23:39.560 --> 1:23:41.240 and write about the future is that you're kind of 1:23:41.320 --> 1:23:43.720 coming about it from a number of angles, both as 1:23:43.800 --> 1:23:48.479 like a tech industry journalist, as a fiction writer imagining 1:23:48.520 --> 1:23:51.040 the future, and as somebody who's kind of weighted in 1:23:51.120 --> 1:23:54.640 as an activist to this. And UM, I'm kind of 1:23:54.720 --> 1:23:59.439 wondering where do you see like the greatest potential for 1:23:59.560 --> 1:24:02.800 actual like change? Um? Is it? Is it in kind 1:24:02.840 --> 1:24:05.360 of is it in lobbying and engaging as an activist 1:24:05.479 --> 1:24:07.720 or is it in sort of imagining as a as 1:24:07.760 --> 1:24:11.000 a as a fiction writer? What might be? So I 1:24:11.240 --> 1:24:14.560 I see them as adjuncts uh, you know, diversity of 1:24:14.640 --> 1:24:19.000 tactics and all that stuff. Um. The thing is that 1:24:19.320 --> 1:24:24.639 tech policy arguments are often very abstract, uh, and they 1:24:25.920 --> 1:24:31.080 are only visceral for the people who would provide the 1:24:31.160 --> 1:24:34.519 kind of political will to do something about them. Usually 1:24:34.600 --> 1:24:37.800 that that comes when it's too late, right, People people 1:24:37.840 --> 1:24:40.320 care about tech monopolies once the web is turned into 1:24:40.400 --> 1:24:42.960 five giant websites stilled with screenshots of text from the 1:24:43.040 --> 1:24:46.880 other four. But not when Yahoo is on a buying 1:24:46.960 --> 1:24:49.400 spree of tech companies. And we're saying, oh, that's how 1:24:49.439 --> 1:24:51.560 tech companies grow, and all tech companies will grow in 1:24:51.560 --> 1:24:54.479 the future by buying all their nascent competitors and rolling 1:24:54.520 --> 1:24:56.960 them up into a big vertically integrated monopoly, which is 1:24:57.000 --> 1:24:58.600 kind of how we got Facebook and Google and the 1:24:58.640 --> 1:25:01.679 rest of it. And um, you need to be able 1:25:01.680 --> 1:25:04.840 to make policy arguments to policy people, but you also 1:25:04.920 --> 1:25:07.880 need to be able to put uh, some some sinew 1:25:07.960 --> 1:25:11.000 and muscle on the bone of that highly abstract kind 1:25:11.080 --> 1:25:14.120 of argument. And and that's where fiction comes in. It's 1:25:14.200 --> 1:25:18.760 kind of a like a fly through of like an 1:25:18.800 --> 1:25:22.200 emotional architects rendering of what things might look like if 1:25:22.280 --> 1:25:25.200 we get it wrong or if we change it. It 1:25:25.360 --> 1:25:27.880 preserves the sense of possibility, you know. I think one 1:25:27.880 --> 1:25:31.120 of the great enemies of change is the inevitable is 1:25:31.200 --> 1:25:33.519 um of capitalist realism and the idea that there is 1:25:33.560 --> 1:25:35.720 no alternative. So if you can make people believe in 1:25:35.720 --> 1:25:38.519 an alternative, then they might work for one. And certainly 1:25:38.560 --> 1:25:41.000 the opposite is true. If people don't believe there is 1:25:41.320 --> 1:25:44.280 any alternative possible, they won't work for one, why why 1:25:44.360 --> 1:25:48.640 would you? Uh? And so all of that together, I 1:25:48.760 --> 1:25:52.160 think is part of how you mobilize people to care 1:25:52.160 --> 1:25:56.920 about stuff. Yeah, I mean that makes that makes total sense, 1:25:57.000 --> 1:26:00.840 and it is. It's difficult, I think because I first 1:26:00.880 --> 1:26:04.799 came into technology as a journalist, and it's very difficult 1:26:04.840 --> 1:26:08.439 to get people to care about stuff. And I think 1:26:08.479 --> 1:26:11.760 in particular privacy, which there was, it has been one 1:26:11.760 --> 1:26:14.040 of the most interesting cases of like the kind of 1:26:14.120 --> 1:26:18.040 thought leaders in in an industry freaking out over something 1:26:18.120 --> 1:26:20.439 and people not really having an issue with it because 1:26:20.560 --> 1:26:22.320 we kind of all agreed to hand over all of 1:26:22.360 --> 1:26:25.160 our data to a number of big side not all, 1:26:25.320 --> 1:26:27.080 but I don't know. I'm interested in your thoughts on that. 1:26:27.439 --> 1:26:30.760 I understand the idea that like fiction is um is 1:26:30.800 --> 1:26:32.360 a much better way to try to get people to 1:26:32.439 --> 1:26:35.200 care about these things because it makes them feel as 1:26:35.240 --> 1:26:37.680 opposed to kind of reporting on I think people can 1:26:37.720 --> 1:26:39.920 get kind of lost in the weeds of acquisitions and 1:26:40.080 --> 1:26:43.639 like uh, pivots and you know, tech companies acquiring each 1:26:43.640 --> 1:26:47.760 other and whatnot. Well, look, I think that the part 1:26:47.840 --> 1:26:51.599 of the problem with privacy. The reason that we we're 1:26:51.720 --> 1:26:54.120 late to wake up and do something about it is 1:26:54.160 --> 1:26:57.040 because it was obfuscated. You know, if you've ever seen 1:26:57.240 --> 1:26:59.840 the maps of like how an ad tech stock works, 1:26:59.880 --> 1:27:03.560 the flow diagrams. Uh. And there are some things that 1:27:03.640 --> 1:27:07.599 are complicated because um, there are some things that are 1:27:07.600 --> 1:27:09.800 hard to understand because they're complicated. And then there are 1:27:09.800 --> 1:27:12.640 some things that are made complicated so they will be 1:27:12.760 --> 1:27:15.400 hard to understand. And I think in the case of 1:27:16.080 --> 1:27:21.439 the surveillance industry, the latter is true. And it wasn't 1:27:21.560 --> 1:27:23.479 just that they were trying to play us for suckers. 1:27:23.520 --> 1:27:26.680 They were also playing their customers for suckers. Right. One 1:27:26.720 --> 1:27:28.640 of the reasons that the ad tex st act is 1:27:28.680 --> 1:27:32.320 such a snarled hair ball is so that the people 1:27:32.360 --> 1:27:34.880 who buy ads and the publishers who run ads can't 1:27:34.920 --> 1:27:37.520 tell how badly they're being ripped off by their intermediaries. 1:27:37.840 --> 1:27:39.720 But this also has the side effect of making it 1:27:39.880 --> 1:27:42.800 very hard for us to know as the as the 1:27:42.920 --> 1:27:47.040 kind of inputs to that system, how our own dignity 1:27:47.160 --> 1:27:50.680 and private lives and safety and integrity are being put 1:27:50.800 --> 1:27:55.120 to risk by these systems as well. Um, And you know, 1:27:56.400 --> 1:27:58.240 it may be that people if they had been well 1:27:58.320 --> 1:28:01.120 informed about what was going on, they might have been 1:28:01.120 --> 1:28:03.840 indifferent as well. But I think that when most people 1:28:03.880 --> 1:28:06.400 were very poorly informed, right when all there was was 1:28:06.520 --> 1:28:10.840 this kind of that privacy discourse was just like stuff 1:28:10.920 --> 1:28:14.840 as being your personal information is being siphoned up, but 1:28:15.200 --> 1:28:18.320 no kind of specifics on how that was being used 1:28:18.400 --> 1:28:20.240 and how that was being done and how it might 1:28:20.479 --> 1:28:24.240 bring you to harm. Um, it's not clear that that 1:28:24.360 --> 1:28:26.719 you can say that that the reason they were indifferent 1:28:27.000 --> 1:28:30.280 is because they were fully informed and didn't care if 1:28:30.320 --> 1:28:32.479 you know that they weren't fully informed, if you know 1:28:32.560 --> 1:28:35.880 that they were barely informed. Mhm. I mean yeah, I 1:28:35.920 --> 1:28:38.960 think you're absolutely right. Because when the Cambridge analytic Is 1:28:39.000 --> 1:28:40.840 scandal broke, which was I think one of the first 1:28:40.920 --> 1:28:44.160 times that there was a really huge international story that 1:28:44.280 --> 1:28:46.640 made it clear some of the consequences of all this, 1:28:46.960 --> 1:28:49.479 like it did provoke a lot of a lot of anger. 1:28:50.120 --> 1:28:53.080 Um I I do you worry at all that, Like 1:28:54.520 --> 1:28:57.720 there's a degree to which because it because people got 1:28:57.880 --> 1:28:59.639 tricked or whatever you want to frame it, and it's 1:28:59.680 --> 1:29:05.880 glow the the kind of um financialization of people's private data, 1:29:06.000 --> 1:29:08.880 of people's like personal information, because that has gone so far, 1:29:09.400 --> 1:29:11.479 there's a risk that people are just kind of inured 1:29:11.600 --> 1:29:15.240 to it. Um. Yeah, well, well, I mean that kind 1:29:15.240 --> 1:29:17.280 of gets to my theory change here, which is that 1:29:17.880 --> 1:29:21.200 there is always going to be uh a point of 1:29:22.479 --> 1:29:26.240 maximum and difference peak in difference. You know, Um, if 1:29:26.280 --> 1:29:31.560 you think about something like being a smoker, the likelihood 1:29:31.680 --> 1:29:36.360 that you care about cancer goes up the longer you 1:29:36.520 --> 1:29:40.679 smoke and the more health effects you feel. And certainly 1:29:40.720 --> 1:29:43.479 there will come a point in your life when you 1:29:43.560 --> 1:29:46.120 will only ever grow more worried about the effects of 1:29:46.200 --> 1:29:48.960 smoking on your life. But there's also a point of 1:29:49.040 --> 1:29:51.800 no return. Right if the point at which you you're 1:29:51.920 --> 1:29:55.880 you're concern reaches the point where you're actually going to 1:29:55.960 --> 1:29:59.280 do something about smoking is the day you get diagnosed 1:29:59.320 --> 1:30:04.160 with stage four on cancer, then that, um, denialism can 1:30:04.400 --> 1:30:08.080 slide into nihilism. You can say, why bother, right, it's 1:30:08.160 --> 1:30:11.240 too late. It's like if if we spend years arguing 1:30:11.280 --> 1:30:15.679 about the crashing population of rhinos and then finally there's 1:30:15.720 --> 1:30:18.080 only one left, and you say you're right, there was 1:30:18.120 --> 1:30:21.360 a problem. You might as well say, like, why don't 1:30:21.360 --> 1:30:22.800 we eat him and find out what he tastes like? 1:30:22.920 --> 1:30:25.320 It's not like the rhinos are ever going to come back, right, 1:30:25.800 --> 1:30:29.720 And so for me, so much of the work is 1:30:29.760 --> 1:30:33.479 about shifting the point of peak indifference to the left 1:30:33.560 --> 1:30:36.720 of the point of no return on the timeline, so 1:30:36.960 --> 1:30:40.800 that people actually start to care earlier, because it's it's 1:30:41.040 --> 1:30:43.880 it's if you haven't a genuine problem, right, like the 1:30:43.960 --> 1:30:46.640 overcollection of our private data, the mishandling of it, the 1:30:46.680 --> 1:30:51.400 abuse of it, that genuine problem will eventually produce tangible 1:30:51.439 --> 1:30:55.080 effects that are undeniable, right that the the our ability 1:30:55.160 --> 1:30:57.880 to ignore it just goes monotonically down. It's the thing 1:30:57.920 --> 1:31:02.240 about the climate emergency. You know, even if Shell had 1:31:02.320 --> 1:31:05.519 not our Exxon had not hidden the data had had 1:31:05.640 --> 1:31:08.200 on the role that it's products were playing in climate 1:31:08.320 --> 1:31:10.720 change in the seventies, it would have been hard to 1:31:10.800 --> 1:31:13.479 muster a sense of urgency in the seventies, right because 1:31:13.560 --> 1:31:16.080 the story is that in fifty years something bad's going 1:31:16.160 --> 1:31:18.679 to happen. But here we are fifty years on, something 1:31:18.760 --> 1:31:21.280 bad is really happening, and a lot of people are 1:31:21.320 --> 1:31:24.080 caring about it. They still don't seem to care about 1:31:24.080 --> 1:31:27.000 it enough, or maybe they've slid into nihilism. There's certainly, 1:31:27.040 --> 1:31:29.320 I think on the part of the elites, a kind 1:31:29.360 --> 1:31:32.760 of nihilistic sense that maybe they can all retreat to 1:31:32.840 --> 1:31:36.720 like mountaintops and build fortresses and breathe their children by 1:31:36.840 --> 1:31:42.320 harrier jet you know, and and and you know that nihilism, 1:31:42.400 --> 1:31:45.599 I think is is what you get when the point 1:31:45.640 --> 1:31:49.680 of no return has passed before peak denial. Uh and 1:31:50.680 --> 1:31:55.360 the privacy um catastrophe that is looming in our future 1:31:55.439 --> 1:31:57.400 that we haven't quite reached yet. I mean, we've just 1:31:57.520 --> 1:32:01.160 had the first kind of trickles of the dam breaking 1:32:01.280 --> 1:32:04.840 that's in our future. It hasn't been enough yet to 1:32:05.000 --> 1:32:07.800 shift people away from it. But but we might be 1:32:07.880 --> 1:32:10.240 getting there, right, We might We might eventually be able 1:32:10.280 --> 1:32:13.360 to do something about it. And one of the things 1:32:13.400 --> 1:32:19.360 that will hasten that moment is UM restoring competition to 1:32:19.439 --> 1:32:22.560 those industries that one of the reasons that uh, the 1:32:22.680 --> 1:32:27.559 industry that spies on us is able to foster denial 1:32:27.680 --> 1:32:31.439 and indifference is because it is a monopolized industry. To 1:32:31.600 --> 1:32:35.720 companies control eighty percent of the ad market, Google and Facebook, 1:32:36.280 --> 1:32:41.000 and as as monopolists, they're able to extract huge monopoly rents. 1:32:41.000 --> 1:32:43.040 They're among the most profitable companies in the history of 1:32:43.080 --> 1:32:46.000 the world. And some of those monopoly rents, rather than 1:32:46.000 --> 1:32:49.040 being returned to shareholders, can be mobilized to distort policy, 1:32:49.479 --> 1:32:52.200 to to make us think that there's nothing wrong with 1:32:52.360 --> 1:32:54.120 the way that they collect data and use it to 1:32:54.640 --> 1:32:59.080 forestall regulation, to pay Nick Clegg four million a year 1:32:59.240 --> 1:33:01.880 to go around Europe and the world and say, as 1:33:01.920 --> 1:33:04.599 the former Deputy Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, I'm 1:33:04.640 --> 1:33:06.560 here to tell you that Facebook is the friend of 1:33:06.600 --> 1:33:10.519 the democratic regimes of the world. And and you know, 1:33:11.040 --> 1:33:14.400 if if the anti monopoly movement, which is a thing 1:33:14.479 --> 1:33:18.080 I've become very involved with, is able to go from 1:33:18.160 --> 1:33:21.280 strength to strength it's surging now, then one of the 1:33:21.400 --> 1:33:25.920 things that we might do is is destroy the ammunition 1:33:26.040 --> 1:33:30.040 that's being used by these large monopolistic firms to distort 1:33:30.080 --> 1:33:32.640 our policy and harm us in these ways with impunity. 1:33:33.280 --> 1:33:36.360 And and then maybe we can actually take the the 1:33:36.600 --> 1:33:42.120 nascent and natural alarm that people do feel about the 1:33:42.400 --> 1:33:46.880 invasions of their privacy and and actually turn that into 1:33:47.080 --> 1:33:50.599 privacy policy that is meaningful in respect of these big 1:33:50.640 --> 1:33:54.400 companies that actually reigns them in. Yeah, and I think 1:33:54.560 --> 1:33:58.000 I like that you frame it as a privacy catastrophe 1:33:58.040 --> 1:34:00.040 because I think I mean, what I just exhibit it 1:34:00.120 --> 1:34:03.479 earlier in this episode, is this this tendency that I 1:34:03.600 --> 1:34:05.479 certainly see in myself and I see in other people 1:34:05.520 --> 1:34:08.519 to get kind of beaten down by the continued um 1:34:08.680 --> 1:34:11.240 excesses of this industry and the continued kind of failure 1:34:11.280 --> 1:34:13.400 of anything to be done to curb it. And I 1:34:13.479 --> 1:34:16.840 think you're right. It has to be viewed as um 1:34:17.320 --> 1:34:19.760 as a calamity and I and nothing I think makes 1:34:19.800 --> 1:34:22.759 that clearer than some of watching some of the stuff 1:34:22.800 --> 1:34:25.120 Facebook in particular has put out about their plans for 1:34:25.160 --> 1:34:27.800 the metaverse, and kind of thinking back from all of 1:34:27.880 --> 1:34:29.760 these sensors they want to store in your house, all 1:34:29.760 --> 1:34:31.519 of the ways in which they want to map everything 1:34:31.640 --> 1:34:34.960 around you, um, they never you know. They they kind 1:34:34.960 --> 1:34:37.200 of advertise as like you'll be able to play basketball 1:34:37.280 --> 1:34:39.240 with somebody who's in a different state, But really what 1:34:39.360 --> 1:34:43.080 it is is you're giving Facebook access to every measurement 1:34:43.200 --> 1:34:45.320 of your body and you know, the pulse of the 1:34:45.400 --> 1:34:47.640 beat of your heart and all this this stuff that like, 1:34:48.120 --> 1:34:51.200 maybe we don't quite know what it would be useful 1:34:51.280 --> 1:34:55.680 for from financialization standpoint, but they it's unsettling to think 1:34:55.720 --> 1:34:57.680 that they'll have to find a way because they'll have it. 1:34:57.840 --> 1:34:59.880 You know, I don't know, I don't know what is 1:35:00.040 --> 1:35:02.120 be done about that other than, as you say, kind 1:35:02.160 --> 1:35:05.080 of breaking up these monopolies. Well and and I mean 1:35:05.160 --> 1:35:07.200 breaking up is like one of the things we can 1:35:07.240 --> 1:35:09.639 do to monopolies. And and it takes a long time, 1:35:10.240 --> 1:35:12.919 you know, um A T and T. The first enforcement 1:35:13.000 --> 1:35:16.840 action against it happened sixty nine years before it was 1:35:16.880 --> 1:35:19.320 broken up in nineteen two. I don't think we can 1:35:19.400 --> 1:35:21.759 wait that long. But there's a lot of intermediate steps, 1:35:21.880 --> 1:35:25.120 right Like we can force them to do interoperability, we 1:35:25.200 --> 1:35:29.360 can block them from from predatory acquisitions. We can force 1:35:29.439 --> 1:35:32.960 them to divest of companies and engage in structural separation. 1:35:33.479 --> 1:35:35.479 We can do all kinds of things. It actually looks 1:35:35.479 --> 1:35:37.120 like the United Kingdom is going to stop them from 1:35:37.160 --> 1:35:40.640 buying Giffee, which might seem trivial after all, it's just 1:35:40.760 --> 1:35:44.360 like animated jifts, but um, what it actually is a 1:35:44.439 --> 1:35:49.439 surveillance beacons in every social media application, right because if 1:35:49.479 --> 1:35:53.920 you're hosting a Jeff from Giffee in your message to 1:35:54.080 --> 1:35:58.720 someone else, Facebook has telemetry about that message. Um. And 1:35:58.880 --> 1:36:02.959 so the the the not the i c O. The competition, 1:36:03.200 --> 1:36:06.080 competition and Markets Authority in the UK was like, yeah, 1:36:06.120 --> 1:36:08.000 this is just gonna strengthen your market power. That's why 1:36:08.040 --> 1:36:11.080 you're buying this company. You have too much market power already. 1:36:11.200 --> 1:36:14.200 We're not gonna let you do it. Um. It was 1:36:14.360 --> 1:36:17.240 almost the case that the Fitbit merger was blocked Google's 1:36:17.280 --> 1:36:19.720 Fitbit merger. I think it's still not too late to 1:36:19.840 --> 1:36:22.360 roll it back. And Lena Cohn, who's the new fire 1:36:22.439 --> 1:36:25.320 breathing dragon in charge of the FTC, who is an 1:36:25.360 --> 1:36:29.840 astonishing person who was a law student three years ago. Uh, 1:36:30.120 --> 1:36:33.040 she has said, oh, yeah, this this like one point 1:36:33.120 --> 1:36:35.720 three trillion dollars worth of mergers and acquisitions that you're 1:36:35.760 --> 1:36:37.920 doing right now to get in under the wire before 1:36:37.960 --> 1:36:41.439 we started enforcing. Guess what, We're gonna unwind those fucking 1:36:41.520 --> 1:36:44.000 mergers if it looks like they were anti competitive. And 1:36:44.120 --> 1:36:45.840 not only are you going to lose all the money 1:36:45.880 --> 1:36:47.640 you spent on the M and A due diligence and 1:36:47.680 --> 1:36:50.480 the paperwork and the corporate stuff, but all that integration 1:36:50.520 --> 1:36:52.439 you're going to do between now and then, you're gonna 1:36:52.479 --> 1:36:55.200 have to de integrate those companies. When we tell you 1:36:55.320 --> 1:36:58.400 that you don't have uh, you don't have merger approval 1:36:58.760 --> 1:37:01.960 and you're on notice. You can't come and complain later, right, 1:37:02.080 --> 1:37:04.320 Like you can either get in line and wait for 1:37:04.439 --> 1:37:07.200 us to tell you whether or not your merger is legal, 1:37:07.680 --> 1:37:09.479 or you can roll the dice. But I tell you what, 1:37:09.720 --> 1:37:12.840 if you come up sneak, guys, you are fucked. And 1:37:12.960 --> 1:37:16.479 that is amazing, right, that is a powerful change in 1:37:16.560 --> 1:37:21.000 American industrial policy that really makes a difference. Yeah, I 1:37:21.040 --> 1:37:24.360 mean that is a beautiful thing to think of being 1:37:24.439 --> 1:37:27.639 in place and actually hitting as hard as it could. Obviously, 1:37:27.720 --> 1:37:30.640 the concern is that, like who will be you know, 1:37:30.760 --> 1:37:33.519 picking the head of the FTC in three years in change? 1:37:33.600 --> 1:37:36.360 And like how how how much influence is Peter Teal 1:37:36.439 --> 1:37:39.120 going to have their in the like um, yeah, well, 1:37:39.200 --> 1:37:41.960 and Peter til of course love's monopolies. He says, competition 1:37:42.080 --> 1:37:45.799 is for losers. So you're right. I mean, obviously elections 1:37:45.840 --> 1:37:49.280 have consequences, but you know, one of the ways that 1:37:49.360 --> 1:37:52.439 you win elections is by making material differences in people's lives, 1:37:52.960 --> 1:37:57.160 and so you know, if people are policy, then uh. 1:37:58.200 --> 1:38:00.560 One of the most important policies by to set so 1:38:00.720 --> 1:38:04.280 far is hiring Lena Khan and her colleagues canter at 1:38:04.320 --> 1:38:07.360 the d R j and Tim Wu and the White House. Yeah, 1:38:07.400 --> 1:38:10.000 I mean I would. I would love nothing more than 1:38:10.080 --> 1:38:13.639 to see particularly like Facebook reigned in at this point 1:38:13.720 --> 1:38:16.160 because I'm one of the casualties of the of the 1:38:16.520 --> 1:38:20.080 of the the ad market like crash of started in 1:38:20.160 --> 1:38:24.200 like two sixteen seventeen. It feels like the odds of 1:38:24.240 --> 1:38:27.200 them being able to, like, I don't know, we we've 1:38:27.280 --> 1:38:32.520 got three years where we know, you know, theoretically these 1:38:32.600 --> 1:38:35.800 policies will be in place, and and I don't know, 1:38:35.840 --> 1:38:38.000 I'm hopeful, like when I when I because the Republicans 1:38:38.040 --> 1:38:40.599 are talking a lot about regulating social media too, about 1:38:40.720 --> 1:38:43.240 even breaking up these companies, but they often tend to 1:38:43.280 --> 1:38:45.080 be talking about it in a very different way and 1:38:45.160 --> 1:38:47.200 with a very different kind of end goal in mind. 1:38:48.080 --> 1:38:50.880 Um And I guess you know, obviously they know that, 1:38:51.120 --> 1:38:54.200 right and Facebook they are well aware that like this 1:38:54.360 --> 1:38:56.559 might be a way out the clock situation for them, 1:38:56.600 --> 1:38:59.160 and they have some arrows in that quiver. I mean 1:38:59.240 --> 1:39:02.080 that may be so, but also remember that Facebook's users 1:39:02.120 --> 1:39:05.599 are outside of the US, and that even a change 1:39:05.600 --> 1:39:09.719 administration here won't won't UM put Margueritte vest Dagger, who's 1:39:10.080 --> 1:39:12.840 the Competition Commissioner in the EU back in the bottle, 1:39:13.160 --> 1:39:16.519 and she's another fire breather, right, She's another amazing person. 1:39:16.560 --> 1:39:19.160 And so you know I wouldn't be too quick to 1:39:19.240 --> 1:39:23.080 write that off. I mean Facebook needs its foreign markets. Yes, 1:39:23.120 --> 1:39:25.120 it's u S customers are worth more to anyone else 1:39:25.160 --> 1:39:28.200 because we have the most primitive privacy frameworks, so it 1:39:28.240 --> 1:39:29.960 can extract a lot more data for like we're the 1:39:30.040 --> 1:39:33.400 we're the richest people with a worse privacy. So that's 1:39:33.479 --> 1:39:36.240 that's UM. You know, it's a real home court advantage 1:39:36.280 --> 1:39:38.320 for Facebook, but it needs that other eighty percent of 1:39:38.400 --> 1:39:40.840 its users. It wouldn't be what it is without them, 1:39:41.080 --> 1:39:43.760 and that makes it subject to their jurisdiction. And you know, 1:39:43.840 --> 1:39:46.880 one of the things about ad driven firms like Facebook, 1:39:47.640 --> 1:39:51.160 UM is that they really need sales offices in country. 1:39:52.120 --> 1:39:54.600 Uh so you know, even before we we had the 1:39:54.640 --> 1:39:57.280 proliferation national firewalls, which don't get me wrong, I don't 1:39:57.280 --> 1:40:02.000 think it's a good thing. UM. These large global firms 1:40:02.640 --> 1:40:06.799 that operated UM sales offices in country, in every territory 1:40:06.880 --> 1:40:09.920 they worked in, were vulnerable to regulation because if you 1:40:10.040 --> 1:40:13.280 have staff in a country, then you have someone that 1:40:13.360 --> 1:40:17.639 can be arrested, right, and so it's not like they 1:40:17.720 --> 1:40:21.320 can just be like I don't know, like the Tour Project, 1:40:21.720 --> 1:40:25.320 which just you know, it has people um who who 1:40:25.439 --> 1:40:28.160 sit and hack on tour who are close to lawyers 1:40:28.200 --> 1:40:31.519 who can defend people who sit on hack and on tour. Uh. 1:40:31.760 --> 1:40:34.200 You know, if the Tour Project had to have staff 1:40:34.240 --> 1:40:39.000 full time in Turkey and China and Russia and Syria 1:40:39.160 --> 1:40:42.559 in order to operate, it would be a very different project. 1:40:42.920 --> 1:40:46.200 But you know, Facebook and Twitter and Google, they all 1:40:46.280 --> 1:40:49.200 have staff in those countries and it makes them vulnerable 1:40:49.240 --> 1:40:53.240 to regulation. And so, you know, China is really interesting 1:40:53.280 --> 1:40:57.160 because because m j and Ping, for his own reasons 1:40:57.240 --> 1:41:01.160 which are not my reasons and stink from the Democrats 1:41:01.200 --> 1:41:04.040 and the Republicans reasons, is doing stuff to rein in 1:41:04.160 --> 1:41:07.240 big tech in China. And it's actually quite interesting because 1:41:07.280 --> 1:41:09.120 you know the argument that Nick Legg makes when he 1:41:09.160 --> 1:41:11.760 says why we shouldn't break up Facebook, as he says, uh, 1:41:12.240 --> 1:41:15.960 you know, China is coming for your UM, for your 1:41:16.120 --> 1:41:20.400 I P and for your industrial competitiveness with its big 1:41:20.479 --> 1:41:23.679 tech giants that it treats as national champions that projects 1:41:23.680 --> 1:41:27.160 soft power around the world. Meanwhile, China is like these 1:41:27.240 --> 1:41:30.120 tech giants, we hate these tech giants. They present a 1:41:30.200 --> 1:41:33.200 countervailing force to the hedgemony of the the Communist Party 1:41:33.200 --> 1:41:35.559 and the and the executive branch that she should bring 1:41:35.640 --> 1:41:37.920 sets at the top of we're gonna neuter them, and 1:41:37.960 --> 1:41:41.120 we're gonna we're gonna disappear their founders, like Jack Mont 1:41:41.200 --> 1:41:44.920 to fucking Googlogs right Like, they're like, we don't want 1:41:45.040 --> 1:41:48.720 national champions because the nation that you know, we Bow 1:41:48.840 --> 1:41:51.920 and Ali Baba is the champion four is we Bow 1:41:51.960 --> 1:41:54.519 and Ali Baba and ten Cent they're not. They're not 1:41:54.680 --> 1:41:58.200 champions for China by any stretch of the imagination. They 1:41:58.240 --> 1:42:00.680 don't give a shit about China. And so you know, 1:42:00.840 --> 1:42:04.439 they're all of these companies are going to face regulatory pressure, 1:42:04.880 --> 1:42:09.000 anti monopoly regulatory pressure all over the world, and you're 1:42:09.360 --> 1:42:13.559 you're so much more um optimistic. I guess about about 1:42:13.640 --> 1:42:16.040 the potential for that to bite than a lot of 1:42:16.080 --> 1:42:18.280 people I talked to, and I think more knowledgeable as well. 1:42:18.400 --> 1:42:20.639 And I kind of wonder because there's this very strong, 1:42:21.200 --> 1:42:24.360 obviously influenced by decades of cyberpunk attitude that like, we're 1:42:24.400 --> 1:42:28.320 in this age of mega corporations whose power is you know, 1:42:29.360 --> 1:42:31.920 there's nothing that can stop Amazon from doing what Amazon 1:42:32.040 --> 1:42:33.760 wants to do. Right, Facebook is going to keep doing 1:42:34.160 --> 1:42:36.559 whatever they want to do forever. You you clearly don't 1:42:36.600 --> 1:42:39.360 believe that. And I you know you, you clearly know 1:42:39.520 --> 1:42:44.320 your stuff. I'm wondering why you think that that image 1:42:44.360 --> 1:42:47.719 is still persist so persistent that like attitude in our heads, 1:42:47.880 --> 1:42:51.960 of these these these are kind of monolithic forces in 1:42:52.000 --> 1:42:56.160 our society that um just have to be endured. So 1:42:56.280 --> 1:42:59.640 I think it's a belief in the great forces of history, right, um, 1:43:00.160 --> 1:43:03.080 and the great man theory. You know that the the 1:43:03.360 --> 1:43:08.840 these um. Uh, you know that these rich people are 1:43:09.000 --> 1:43:13.760 driving history. Yeah, these these these powerful figures are driving history. 1:43:13.800 --> 1:43:15.640 They're in charge there in the driver's seat. I mean, 1:43:15.720 --> 1:43:18.080 that's kind of what's behind Trump arrangement syndrome, right, the 1:43:18.160 --> 1:43:23.400 idea that Trump is uniquely powerful and talented demagogue as 1:43:23.439 --> 1:43:26.840 opposed to just like a demagogue shaped puzzle piece that 1:43:27.000 --> 1:43:29.360 fit in the demagogue shaped hold that was left by 1:43:29.560 --> 1:43:33.240 the collapse of credibility of capitalism. Uh. And you know, 1:43:33.320 --> 1:43:35.360 a man who is clearly too stupid to be a 1:43:35.439 --> 1:43:38.000 cause of anything and will only ever be the effect 1:43:38.040 --> 1:43:43.200 of something. And uh, you know, the for me, the 1:43:43.360 --> 1:43:46.840 theory of of history and how it goes was really 1:43:47.439 --> 1:43:51.760 transformed by an exercise that my friend Ada Palmer does. So. 1:43:51.920 --> 1:43:54.960 Aida is a science fiction novelist. She's she's just published 1:43:55.160 --> 1:43:58.080 the fourth book of her Terra Ignota series, her debut series. 1:43:58.280 --> 1:44:01.599 It's an incredible series of books. But she's a real 1:44:01.720 --> 1:44:04.040 like kind of multi talented, multi threat. So she's a 1:44:04.120 --> 1:44:08.040 librettiston singer who has produced album length operas based on 1:44:08.120 --> 1:44:12.760 the Norse mythos. She's also a tenured history of um 1:44:13.160 --> 1:44:16.120 a tenured professor of Renaissance history in Florence at the 1:44:16.200 --> 1:44:22.480 University of Chicago, where she studies heterodox information, pornography, homosexuality, witchcraft, 1:44:22.520 --> 1:44:25.560 and so on. During the inquisitions and every year with 1:44:25.720 --> 1:44:30.280 her undergrads, she reenacts through a four week long live 1:44:30.360 --> 1:44:33.120 action role playing game, the Election of the Medici's Pope, 1:44:33.760 --> 1:44:36.080 and each of her students takes on the role of 1:44:36.160 --> 1:44:40.240 a cardinal from a great family and the in the 1:44:40.320 --> 1:44:43.920 actual election of the I forget what year was, uh, 1:44:44.640 --> 1:44:49.920 fourteen ninety or something, I forget, but they each take 1:44:50.000 --> 1:44:53.800 on this role and they have a character sheet and 1:44:53.880 --> 1:44:56.840 has motivations like a dinner party, murder mystery. But for 1:44:57.000 --> 1:45:01.720 four weeks they make a alliances break, alliances stab each 1:45:01.720 --> 1:45:05.599 other in the back UH stage surprise reversals, And at 1:45:05.600 --> 1:45:07.920 the end of the four weeks there's a u faux 1:45:08.240 --> 1:45:13.599 Gothic cathedral on campus and they dress up in costume. 1:45:13.720 --> 1:45:17.400 Aida has a a Google alert for theater companies that 1:45:17.439 --> 1:45:20.080 are getting rid of their costumes, so she clothes them 1:45:20.280 --> 1:45:24.240 in the garb of the Medici's cardinals, and they gather 1:45:25.160 --> 1:45:27.840 and they go into a room, and then a puff 1:45:27.880 --> 1:45:31.240 of smoke emerges, and you get the new Pope. And 1:45:31.479 --> 1:45:35.680 every year, four of the final candidates UH there are 1:45:35.720 --> 1:45:38.200 four final candidates rather and two of them are always 1:45:38.320 --> 1:45:41.479 the same, because the great forces of history bear down 1:45:41.560 --> 1:45:43.920 on that moment to say those people will absolutely be 1:45:44.040 --> 1:45:48.320 in the running for the for the papacy, and two 1:45:48.400 --> 1:45:51.800 of them have never once been the same, because human 1:45:51.880 --> 1:45:57.400 action still has space to alter the outcomes that are 1:45:57.479 --> 1:46:01.080 prefigured by the great forces of history. And so for me, 1:46:02.479 --> 1:46:05.240 the idea of being an optimist or a pessimist has 1:46:05.280 --> 1:46:09.120 always felt very fatalistic. It's this either way, this idea 1:46:09.160 --> 1:46:11.160 that the great forces of history have determined the outcome 1:46:11.200 --> 1:46:13.640 and human action has no bearing on it. And I 1:46:13.760 --> 1:46:18.120 think that rather than optimism or pessimism, we can be hopeful, 1:46:18.240 --> 1:46:20.800 And that's the word you use before. Hope is the 1:46:20.960 --> 1:46:23.160 idea not that you can see a path from here 1:46:23.240 --> 1:46:25.680 to the place you want to get to, but rather 1:46:25.760 --> 1:46:27.559 that you haven't run out of things that you can 1:46:27.640 --> 1:46:30.680 do to advance your your goal, right, Because if you 1:46:30.800 --> 1:46:33.720 can take a step to advance your goal, you can 1:46:33.760 --> 1:46:37.400 ascend the gradient towards the peak that you are trying 1:46:37.479 --> 1:46:40.800 to reach, then you will attain a new vantage point, 1:46:41.120 --> 1:46:43.280 and from that vantage point, you may have revealed to 1:46:43.320 --> 1:46:46.439 you courses of action that you didn't suspect before you 1:46:46.600 --> 1:46:49.320 took that step. So, so long as the step is available, 1:46:49.360 --> 1:46:51.880 there's always another step lurking in the wings that you 1:46:52.040 --> 1:46:54.639 can't see from where you are. And the reason I'm 1:46:54.640 --> 1:46:57.479 hopeful about this is I can think of like fifty 1:46:57.600 --> 1:47:02.000 things that could improve the monopoly picture that we're living 1:47:02.040 --> 1:47:04.760 in now, and it's up from thirty things last year. 1:47:05.280 --> 1:47:07.200 And so even though I don't know how we get 1:47:07.280 --> 1:47:09.120 from here to a better future, and even though I 1:47:09.200 --> 1:47:13.559 absolutely see the blockers you're talking about Trump landslide, uh 1:47:14.080 --> 1:47:17.519 losing Congress because they let Joe Mansion and Christmas Cinema 1:47:17.680 --> 1:47:21.639 Newter the build back better, Bill, Um, you know, all 1:47:21.720 --> 1:47:25.280 of those things that can happen. I have hope, you know, 1:47:25.360 --> 1:47:27.920 which is not the same as optimism or a belief 1:47:28.040 --> 1:47:30.880 that things will be great or even even like a 1:47:31.160 --> 1:47:33.800 sense a lack of a sense of foreboding. I have 1:47:33.960 --> 1:47:37.360 that in spades. But I have hoped that when the 1:47:37.479 --> 1:47:39.840 next phase of the fight begins, that we will have 1:47:40.120 --> 1:47:44.200 many UM vulnerable spots we can strike at, and that 1:47:44.840 --> 1:47:48.400 we can capitalize on whichever victories we attain to find 1:47:48.439 --> 1:47:52.240 more vulnerabilities and move on. I think that's so important, 1:47:52.360 --> 1:47:54.320 and I think it goes in line with to bring 1:47:54.400 --> 1:47:56.280 up climate change again, the idea that like one of 1:47:56.320 --> 1:47:58.679 the most toxic things you can think are e climate 1:47:58.800 --> 1:48:01.519 change is that they're nothing to do. We're already past 1:48:01.560 --> 1:48:04.120 every point of no return and there's no there's no 1:48:04.360 --> 1:48:06.400 positive action because it just leads you to doing the 1:48:06.479 --> 1:48:09.280 same thing as the people who deny it. UM. And 1:48:09.400 --> 1:48:13.040 it's Yeah, I think it's it's very important to UM 1:48:13.960 --> 1:48:16.240 recognized that like, not only are there things you can do, 1:48:16.360 --> 1:48:18.599 but when you do those things, you start taking those steps, 1:48:18.640 --> 1:48:23.160 other steps reveal themselves. Yeah, And you know what, if 1:48:23.160 --> 1:48:27.800 you're feeling nihilistic about about climate. I'm nearly through Saul 1:48:27.880 --> 1:48:31.640 Griffith's book Electrify Uh. Saul's an old friend of mine. 1:48:31.680 --> 1:48:35.400 He's MacArthur Winner's electrical engineer, and he's just done the 1:48:35.560 --> 1:48:37.519 He's it's a popular engineering book. It's one of my 1:48:37.600 --> 1:48:40.880 favorite genres. They're like popular science books, except instead of 1:48:40.960 --> 1:48:42.800 telling you about how science works, they tell you about 1:48:42.800 --> 1:48:46.320 how engineering works. And he's basically like, here is why 1:48:46.439 --> 1:48:49.200 all the estimates of how much renewable as we need 1:48:49.360 --> 1:48:55.200 are hugely overestimated. And it's basically that like keeping uh 1:48:55.560 --> 1:48:59.800 fossil fuel power online requires a lot of fossil fuel, right, 1:49:00.160 --> 1:49:03.920 something like of that estimate is just it's the energy 1:49:04.000 --> 1:49:06.680 that we need to make the energy, and it's not 1:49:06.880 --> 1:49:09.800 present in electrical models. Here's how we can manufacture it. 1:49:09.840 --> 1:49:12.320 Here's how we can distribute it. Here is basically how 1:49:13.160 --> 1:49:17.960 if we can figure out the financing, Americans can UH 1:49:18.360 --> 1:49:21.160 spend less money every year than they do now to 1:49:21.320 --> 1:49:24.240 get more stuff that they love every year. That we 1:49:24.320 --> 1:49:28.599 can do this without hair shirts. It's a spectacular book. Um, 1:49:28.760 --> 1:49:31.679 And you know, I don't agree with everything Saul says 1:49:31.720 --> 1:49:35.800 every all the time, but he is very careful about 1:49:36.120 --> 1:49:40.120 his technical facts. There aren't technical errors in this. There 1:49:40.200 --> 1:49:42.600 might be assumptions that we disagree with, but as a 1:49:42.680 --> 1:49:46.000 technical matter, he's basically written a piece of design fiction 1:49:46.439 --> 1:49:50.200 in which, over the next fifteen years, using clever finance 1:49:50.439 --> 1:49:54.920 and and solid engineering, we really actually do avert the 1:49:55.000 --> 1:49:59.360 climate emergency. And Yeah, as always, kind of the main 1:50:00.040 --> 1:50:02.680 barriers to doing the best version of the thing is 1:50:03.000 --> 1:50:05.720 the political realities on the ground. You know, you have 1:50:05.920 --> 1:50:08.400 to but I think that's the that's the value of 1:50:08.479 --> 1:50:11.639 at least trying to make it clear that there are options. 1:50:12.760 --> 1:50:15.519 I wanted to shift for a moment um. I was 1:50:15.600 --> 1:50:18.800 thinking recently about I think probably the earliest back book 1:50:18.800 --> 1:50:22.559 of yours that I've read, Pirate Cinema, which is heavily involved. 1:50:22.600 --> 1:50:25.519 I think I'm gonna you know, if you're one of 1:50:25.560 --> 1:50:28.160 the folks like me who was on the Internet back 1:50:28.240 --> 1:50:31.200 when you know, file sharing sites, when that was a 1:50:31.280 --> 1:50:33.760 huge topic of discussion, when the r i A Was 1:50:33.840 --> 1:50:37.680 going after people, when like copyright was kind of a 1:50:38.200 --> 1:50:43.200 a much more prevalent part of kind of the online discourse. Um, 1:50:43.479 --> 1:50:45.560 it deals a lot in that and these kind of 1:50:45.760 --> 1:50:48.560 I think there's elements of it that kind of prefigured 1:50:48.640 --> 1:50:53.080 what Disney has done buying up every imaginable fictional property 1:50:53.120 --> 1:50:55.439 in the world. And that's kind of the the elements 1:50:55.479 --> 1:50:58.519 of dystopia that book deals with is is, you know, 1:50:58.600 --> 1:51:02.240 the attempts of these this, these giant multinational entertainment corporations 1:51:02.320 --> 1:51:05.719 to shut down the free tape trading of ideas, remixing 1:51:05.760 --> 1:51:08.719 and all that stuff. And then kind of thinking about 1:51:08.720 --> 1:51:11.559 the difference between the focus of that and the focus 1:51:11.640 --> 1:51:14.519 of books like Attack Surface, where you're really delving more into, 1:51:15.320 --> 1:51:18.120 you know, I the fictional versions of real life companies 1:51:18.160 --> 1:51:22.160 like Tiger Swan that do it, uh the surveillance on 1:51:22.760 --> 1:51:25.320 protesters and all around the world, and that are kind 1:51:25.320 --> 1:51:29.120 of using tactics that were pioneered by other contractors and 1:51:29.200 --> 1:51:33.120 like Iraq and Afghanistan years earlier. I guess kind of 1:51:33.160 --> 1:51:35.000 the things that I find interesting about that as as 1:51:35.040 --> 1:51:37.519 I can remember, when I was first on the Internet, 1:51:37.680 --> 1:51:41.400 the big social kind of crusades online with the people 1:51:42.080 --> 1:51:44.280 that that I paid attention to at least, was all 1:51:44.320 --> 1:51:47.040 around copyright. It was about not just you know, the 1:51:47.080 --> 1:51:50.639 attempts to stop people from remixing and sharing copyrighted work, 1:51:50.720 --> 1:51:55.320 but about um attempts to like buy up copyrights and 1:51:55.560 --> 1:52:01.160 like into these these ever kind of larger uh agglomerations, 1:52:01.280 --> 1:52:04.120 and and that's kind of hit. It seems to have 1:52:04.240 --> 1:52:06.880 hit like a terminal point with the you know, movies 1:52:06.960 --> 1:52:09.880 like Ready Player one and kind of a lot of 1:52:09.920 --> 1:52:11.920 the stuff we're seeing in Marble where everything is showing 1:52:12.000 --> 1:52:16.720 up everywhere Space Jam two. UM. I guess the part 1:52:16.800 --> 1:52:19.120 of it that feels less dystopian the days attempts to 1:52:19.160 --> 1:52:22.080 crack down on file sharing, which I don't think went 1:52:22.360 --> 1:52:24.880 kind of in the worst case scenario. I'm interested actually 1:52:24.960 --> 1:52:27.439 in your thoughts on that, um, because I can remember, 1:52:27.479 --> 1:52:30.000 you know, when the r I A would be threatening 1:52:30.040 --> 1:52:33.000 people with years in jail and whatnot over sharing stuff 1:52:33.000 --> 1:52:35.600 on kaza we seem to be I don't know. Is 1:52:35.640 --> 1:52:37.519 it just that it gets less like I'm interested in 1:52:37.560 --> 1:52:38.800 your in your thoughts on that. Is it just that 1:52:38.880 --> 1:52:42.120 it's less publicized when they cracked down on people, or 1:52:42.200 --> 1:52:44.240 has kind of the nature of their response to that 1:52:44.360 --> 1:52:47.240 really changed. Well. I think that what's happened with the 1:52:47.960 --> 1:52:50.760 kind of steady state of the copyright wars has been 1:52:50.800 --> 1:52:54.960 the introduction of um brittleness and fragility into our speech 1:52:55.000 --> 1:52:59.679 platforms like Twitter, UH and and Facebook and YouTube, where 1:52:59.720 --> 1:53:03.080 it's very easy to get material removed by by making 1:53:03.160 --> 1:53:06.360 copyright claims UM. And you know, we see that with 1:53:06.560 --> 1:53:09.880 the sleazier side of the reputation management industry, where they 1:53:10.040 --> 1:53:14.960 use bogus copyright claims to take down criticisms. You know, 1:53:15.080 --> 1:53:18.120 there was a group of leftists who are really celebrating 1:53:18.320 --> 1:53:21.160 the idea that if you if Nazis were marching in 1:53:21.240 --> 1:53:24.120 your town, you could stop them from uploading their videos 1:53:24.200 --> 1:53:26.880 by playing copyrighted music in the background. And I was like, 1:53:27.439 --> 1:53:30.040 you have no idea, what a terrible fucking idea that is. 1:53:30.439 --> 1:53:33.080 And you know, within a couple of years, cops and 1:53:33.160 --> 1:53:35.559 Beverly Hills were doing it. Whenever people tried to film 1:53:35.600 --> 1:53:37.639 the police there, they would just turn on some Taylor 1:53:37.720 --> 1:53:40.720 Swift to try and stop uploading UM. You know, the 1:53:41.080 --> 1:53:45.679 thing about the copyright wars is that the real action 1:53:45.880 --> 1:53:51.320 turned out to be in UM wage theft through monopolization. So, 1:53:51.560 --> 1:53:57.080 you know, the neutering and destruction of label independent music 1:53:57.160 --> 1:54:01.280 distribution platforms like Khazah or grow Ster or Napster, and 1:54:01.400 --> 1:54:04.800 the Supreme Court decision, the Groster decision that supported that 1:54:05.760 --> 1:54:08.679 meant that the only UM way that you could launch 1:54:08.720 --> 1:54:11.839 a service like that was in cooperation with the big labels, 1:54:12.479 --> 1:54:16.839 and the you know, most successful one is Spotify. Spotify 1:54:16.960 --> 1:54:20.559 is actually partially owned by the labels, and the labels 1:54:20.640 --> 1:54:24.880 use that ownership stake to negotiate a kind of formalized 1:54:24.920 --> 1:54:29.880 wage theft where they allowed for a lower purse stream 1:54:30.000 --> 1:54:33.120 rate because when they get royalties for a stream, part 1:54:33.200 --> 1:54:37.040 of that money goes to their musicians, and that meant 1:54:37.080 --> 1:54:40.760 that the firm Spotify retain more profits which it returned 1:54:40.800 --> 1:54:43.720 to it in the form of higher dividends, and dividends 1:54:43.800 --> 1:54:46.800 go just straight to their shareholders. They don't that there's 1:54:46.840 --> 1:54:49.760 no claim that musicians can make on this. And because 1:54:49.800 --> 1:54:53.640 they set the benchmark rate, it meant that everyone, irrespective 1:54:53.680 --> 1:54:55.080 of whether you were assigned to one of the big 1:54:55.120 --> 1:55:00.200 three labels, ended up getting the same perse stream eight 1:55:00.400 --> 1:55:04.040 as as Universal's artists. So they were able to structure 1:55:04.120 --> 1:55:07.240 the whole market. In the meantime, in the industrial side, 1:55:07.760 --> 1:55:10.600 UH copyright laws, notably Section twelve of one of the 1:55:10.640 --> 1:55:15.240 Digital Millennium Copyright Act, which is a law past that 1:55:15.400 --> 1:55:19.120 makes it a felony to remove DRM to bypass a 1:55:19.200 --> 1:55:22.760 technical protection measure UM that has become the go to 1:55:23.120 --> 1:55:29.040 system for blocking repair interoperability UH and to prevent third 1:55:29.080 --> 1:55:33.800 parties from um UH from from creating services or add 1:55:33.880 --> 1:55:39.040 ons that accomplish positive ends like improved accessibility, improved security, 1:55:39.720 --> 1:55:43.200 um AD blocking and privacy and so on. They just say, well, 1:55:43.280 --> 1:55:45.960 you know, we we put a one molecule thick layer 1:55:46.000 --> 1:55:48.680 of DRM around say YouTube, and when you make a 1:55:48.760 --> 1:55:53.320 YouTube downloader for archival purposes or whatever, UM, you you 1:55:53.440 --> 1:55:57.800 just create a um A UH, you bypass our technical 1:55:57.880 --> 1:56:00.920 protection measure. And so you're committing a elmy and you 1:56:00.920 --> 1:56:02.960 can go to prison for five years and and pay 1:56:03.000 --> 1:56:06.160 a five dollar fine. And so you have this like 1:56:06.280 --> 1:56:11.920 relentless monotonic expansion of DRM into like automotive tractors. Medtronic 1:56:12.080 --> 1:56:15.680 uses it to block people from fixing ventilators. UM. So 1:56:16.080 --> 1:56:21.000 you know, this, this UM assault on the ability to 1:56:21.160 --> 1:56:25.760 reconfigure a technology that is ever more prevalent in our 1:56:25.880 --> 1:56:28.920 lives and that increasingly holds our lives in its in 1:56:29.000 --> 1:56:32.320 its hands right its choices determine whether we live or die, 1:56:32.720 --> 1:56:35.800 has been really consequential. And I know, we don't really 1:56:35.840 --> 1:56:37.880 think of it as a copyright problem. We think of 1:56:37.920 --> 1:56:39.879 it as right to repair. We think of a security 1:56:39.920 --> 1:56:44.040 auditing our accessibility. But the rule that is being used 1:56:44.080 --> 1:56:47.520 to block into operability is a copyright law. It's what 1:56:47.960 --> 1:56:50.480 printer companies used to stop you from buying third party 1:56:50.560 --> 1:56:53.520 inc um. It's what Apple uses to stop you from 1:56:53.560 --> 1:56:55.840 installing a third party app store. And you know the 1:56:55.920 --> 1:56:58.400 absence of a third party app store is why when 1:56:58.480 --> 1:57:03.320 Apple removed all the working VPNs in China, Chinese users 1:57:03.400 --> 1:57:05.760 couldn't just switch to another app store that had working 1:57:05.880 --> 1:57:09.760 VPNs in it. And so you know that this um 1:57:10.400 --> 1:57:12.360 endgame of the copyright wars is I think a lot 1:57:12.440 --> 1:57:18.880 more dystopian than merely suing college kids. Uh, it's it's 1:57:18.960 --> 1:57:22.120 actually really screwed us in ways that are that are 1:57:22.960 --> 1:57:26.520 hard to fathom. Yeah, it's a fascinating example of kind 1:57:26.520 --> 1:57:29.440 of dystopic creep because, at least kind of from my 1:57:29.880 --> 1:57:32.600 more more ignorant position. When I was nineteen, I was 1:57:32.640 --> 1:57:35.240 like worried that all of these these people remixing music 1:57:35.360 --> 1:57:37.400 and movies that I liked, like we're going to get 1:57:37.440 --> 1:57:40.880 cracked down on or have their stuff pulled um, and 1:57:41.480 --> 1:57:43.880 the the kind of thing that I didn't I don't 1:57:43.920 --> 1:57:46.400 think a lot of people saw coming until it hit. 1:57:46.520 --> 1:57:48.680 I certainly didn't was what you were just talking about 1:57:48.680 --> 1:57:51.640 the fact that kind of the logic of how these 1:57:51.800 --> 1:57:54.720 these entertainment companies were looking at like an album or 1:57:54.960 --> 1:57:56.880 you know, a movie, and and cutting up pieces of 1:57:56.960 --> 1:57:59.800 that they've they've applied to like a tractor, you know, 1:58:00.080 --> 1:58:02.160 and now you can't like repair your John Deer or 1:58:02.240 --> 1:58:05.400 modify your John Deer so it works better. And then 1:58:05.720 --> 1:58:07.880 you know, you get situations like we just kind of 1:58:07.960 --> 1:58:10.520 averted with the John Deere strike, where there was a 1:58:10.600 --> 1:58:12.680 very real possibility that we wouldn't be able to get 1:58:12.720 --> 1:58:14.560 a large chunk of a harvest because there wouldn't be 1:58:14.640 --> 1:58:16.280 parts and you can't put your own in. And that's 1:58:16.720 --> 1:58:19.040 to think that that the thought process that led us 1:58:19.080 --> 1:58:23.680 there started with like trying to protect Metallica. In some ways, 1:58:23.680 --> 1:58:26.080 it's kind of funny. And this is why the anti 1:58:26.120 --> 1:58:29.640 monopoly critique is great because it shows you that there's 1:58:29.680 --> 1:58:32.760 cause for solidarity between John Deere tractor owners and John 1:58:32.800 --> 1:58:37.520 Deere tractor UH makers the workers who work there, because 1:58:37.600 --> 1:58:40.840 the same force that has allowed John Deere to cram 1:58:41.000 --> 1:58:44.920 down its workforce for forty years is the is the 1:58:45.040 --> 1:58:48.640 force that allows it to um UH take away the 1:58:48.760 --> 1:58:53.520 agency and economic liberties of farmers who own John Deer tractors, 1:58:54.040 --> 1:58:56.600 and it's it's the it's the political power that comes 1:58:56.680 --> 1:58:59.280 with monopoly. And so you know, if John Deere were 1:58:59.280 --> 1:59:03.320 a smaller, weaker firm, it would be less able to 1:59:03.560 --> 1:59:07.520 resist both the claims of its workforce and the claims 1:59:07.680 --> 1:59:12.440 of its um uh customers. Mhm yeah, I mean that 1:59:12.520 --> 1:59:14.520 makes that makes sense, And it is like I like 1:59:14.680 --> 1:59:17.400 that idea of of because it's not just kind of 1:59:17.480 --> 1:59:21.920 solidarity between John Deere purchasers UM and and the people 1:59:21.920 --> 1:59:24.520 who work in the factories. It's also there's kind of 1:59:24.640 --> 1:59:30.240 solidarity between a wide like anyone concerned with UM copyright. 1:59:31.200 --> 1:59:33.920 It's a much broader base of solidarity than just people 1:59:33.960 --> 1:59:36.800 who are worried about you know, what's happening uh to 1:59:36.960 --> 1:59:39.960 fiction or like what Disney is doing to like copyrights 1:59:39.960 --> 1:59:42.120 around Mickey Mouse or whatever. Like it's it. You can 1:59:42.400 --> 1:59:45.480 you can draw in concerns UM from right to repair 1:59:45.600 --> 1:59:48.560 to a bunch of other things, which potentially means there's 1:59:48.880 --> 1:59:52.040 there's a greater body of people available for action if 1:59:52.040 --> 1:59:56.080 you can make them see kind of UM converging interests there, 1:59:56.160 --> 1:59:58.320 which is I think is an interesting idea. Well, I 1:59:58.360 --> 2:00:00.760 think you're getting something really important. And this is um 2:00:01.120 --> 2:00:03.720 This comes from James Boyle, who's a copyright scholar at 2:00:03.800 --> 2:00:06.920 Duke University and was really involved and found in creative 2:00:06.960 --> 2:00:10.320 commons and in those early copyright fights. And and Jamie 2:00:10.520 --> 2:00:13.520 makes an analogy to the coining of the term ecology. 2:00:14.080 --> 2:00:16.400 And he says that before the term ecology came along, 2:00:16.800 --> 2:00:18.640 you know, someone us cared about owls and someone us 2:00:18.680 --> 2:00:21.200 cared about the ozone layer. But it wasn't really clear 2:00:21.320 --> 2:00:23.920 that we were on the same side. You know, it's 2:00:23.960 --> 2:00:26.280 not clear if you're Martian looking through a telescope, you 2:00:26.360 --> 2:00:28.760 might be hard pressed to explain why. You know, the 2:00:28.840 --> 2:00:33.480 destiny of charismatic charismatic nocturnal birds and the gaseous composition 2:00:33.520 --> 2:00:36.440 of the upper atmosphere were the same issue. Right in 2:00:36.480 --> 2:00:39.560 the term ecology. Let all these people who cared about 2:00:39.600 --> 2:00:42.840 different things find a single point to rally around. It 2:00:42.920 --> 2:00:46.280 turned a thousand issues into one movement. And I think 2:00:46.320 --> 2:00:48.720 that in the in the course of resisting corporate power, 2:00:48.800 --> 2:00:51.839 which is to say, resisting monopoly, we have the potential 2:00:51.960 --> 2:00:55.600 to weld together people from very diverse fields. You know, 2:00:55.800 --> 2:00:58.480 farmers and and people who make tractors. Sure, but you know, 2:00:58.920 --> 2:01:02.480 if you grew up watching professional wrestling and now you're 2:01:02.560 --> 2:01:05.800 aghast that the wrestlers that you loved are begging on 2:01:05.960 --> 2:01:09.240 go fund me for pennies to die with dignity. You know, 2:01:09.480 --> 2:01:12.000 once someone explains to the reason that that's happening is 2:01:12.080 --> 2:01:15.200 that thirty wrestling leagues became one wrestling league that was 2:01:15.240 --> 2:01:19.520 able to practice worker's classification, turn those performers into contractors, 2:01:19.640 --> 2:01:21.840 take away their health insurance, and leave them to die. 2:01:22.360 --> 2:01:24.200 Then suddenly you're on the same side of the people 2:01:24.200 --> 2:01:26.760 who were worried about big tech and big tractor, and 2:01:26.880 --> 2:01:28.600 the people are worried about the fact that there's only 2:01:28.680 --> 2:01:33.040 one manufacturer of cheerleading uniform uniforms, and two manufacturers of 2:01:33.080 --> 2:01:36.960 athletic shoes, and two manufacturers of spirits, and two manufacturers 2:01:37.000 --> 2:01:40.600 of beer, one manufacturer of eyewear that also owns all 2:01:40.720 --> 2:01:43.960 the eye wear stores and the eyewear ensure. You know 2:01:44.080 --> 2:01:46.520 that Duff Beer thing from the early Simpsons, where there's 2:01:46.560 --> 2:01:53.400 like Duff Beer, Rispberry thing, Dulci Gabana, Oliver, People's Boushan, 2:01:53.480 --> 2:01:57.040 Loam Versaci. Every eyewear brand you've ever heard of is 2:01:57.160 --> 2:02:02.080 one company coach all of them and They also own 2:02:02.240 --> 2:02:07.120 Sunglass Hut and uh Target Optical and Sears Optical and 2:02:07.640 --> 2:02:11.240 lens Crafters and spec Savers and every other eyewear story 2:02:11.240 --> 2:02:14.040 you've ever heard of. And they bought all the labs 2:02:14.120 --> 2:02:16.200 that make the lenses, so more than half the lenses 2:02:16.240 --> 2:02:19.240 in the world come from them. A division called and 2:02:19.760 --> 2:02:22.360 they bought imed, which is the company that bought all 2:02:22.440 --> 2:02:25.400 the insurance companies that ensure I Wear, and so they're 2:02:25.440 --> 2:02:28.640 also the company that's ensuring your glasses, your your eyes 2:02:29.000 --> 2:02:32.600 one company, and I Wear costs a thousand percent more 2:02:32.640 --> 2:02:36.240 than it did a decade ago. They stole our fucking eyes, right, 2:02:36.440 --> 2:02:39.360 So people who care about that have common cause with 2:02:39.440 --> 2:02:42.080 people who care about wrestlers and people who care about 2:02:42.120 --> 2:02:45.160 beer and big tech and the fact that there's four 2:02:45.200 --> 2:02:48.400 shipping companies and they have no competitive pressure and so 2:02:48.480 --> 2:02:50.440 they just keep building bigger ships that gets stuck in 2:02:50.480 --> 2:02:55.680 the fucking Suez canal Right, we're all on the same side. Yeah, 2:02:55.880 --> 2:02:59.680 And I I like the idea that I like. I 2:02:59.800 --> 2:03:03.680 like hoping that that kind of inherent solidarity, if you 2:03:03.760 --> 2:03:06.840 can point it out to people, is potentially an antidote 2:03:07.160 --> 2:03:09.080 to or at least a partial antidote to the level 2:03:09.160 --> 2:03:12.720 of the layer of politicization that's fallen down over everything, um, 2:03:12.880 --> 2:03:16.080 that stops people from actually considering matters but instead considering 2:03:16.120 --> 2:03:17.920 like I don't know, is this owning the libs right? 2:03:18.320 --> 2:03:20.400 Like if you if they if if you can get 2:03:20.480 --> 2:03:22.800 them to see that, like, yeah, their favorite wrestler is 2:03:23.360 --> 2:03:26.480 like dying because he couldn't afford insulin, and that that 2:03:26.680 --> 2:03:29.120 that's tied to the issue of like the reason his 2:03:29.280 --> 2:03:31.920 dad can't get tractor parts this year or whatever, um, 2:03:32.080 --> 2:03:34.400 And that that's tied to other issues that are maybe 2:03:34.560 --> 2:03:38.520 championed by people he would reflexively dismiss. But like, yeah, 2:03:38.560 --> 2:03:41.600 I I I find that really inspiring. It's still a 2:03:41.680 --> 2:03:46.720 significant there's a significant challenge for people who are trying 2:03:46.800 --> 2:03:49.240 to make those connections, for folks who are who are 2:03:49.320 --> 2:03:53.080 trying to like inform them of that state. I mean, yeah, 2:03:53.160 --> 2:03:55.960 that's true. And you know, like Steve Bannon will tell 2:03:56.040 --> 2:03:58.839 you that the reason to do cultural world culture culture 2:03:58.920 --> 2:04:02.720 war bullshit is because politics are down downstream from culture, 2:04:02.760 --> 2:04:04.840 and there's probably an element of truth to that. But 2:04:04.960 --> 2:04:07.040 I also think the reason that people find culture war 2:04:07.120 --> 2:04:11.120 bullshits so attractive is because they got nothing else. Yeah, 2:04:12.280 --> 2:04:13.920 I think we we talked about that a lot within 2:04:13.960 --> 2:04:17.480 the context of conservative for politics. I grew up very conservative, 2:04:17.520 --> 2:04:20.160 and I do remember how the tenor of things I 2:04:20.280 --> 2:04:23.680 was hearing through the bush ears changed from advocation of 2:04:23.800 --> 2:04:27.360 policies to just all culture war all the time, all 2:04:27.720 --> 2:04:29.880 all striking the dims all the time, and it was 2:04:29.960 --> 2:04:33.800 the kind of um it and that's not the only 2:04:33.880 --> 2:04:35.560 place that's happen. You see it on the left to 2:04:35.840 --> 2:04:39.160 absolutely like it's it's endemic. Now it's it's a poison 2:04:39.240 --> 2:04:42.640 and kind of the discourse. But I think that there's 2:04:42.800 --> 2:04:44.920 a lot that needs to be I think there's a 2:04:44.960 --> 2:04:47.360 lot to be discovered still for like how to break 2:04:47.640 --> 2:04:50.920 people out of that. I'm kind of bullish when we 2:04:51.000 --> 2:04:52.760 talk about these issues like you were bringing up with 2:04:52.840 --> 2:04:55.360 sort of the monopolization of these industries you wouldn't expect 2:04:55.400 --> 2:04:59.440 to be monopolized. I'm hopeful about the future that stuff 2:04:59.480 --> 2:05:01.560 like three deep printing presents for that. We have an 2:05:01.680 --> 2:05:05.520 organization in Portland that does kind of three D printing glasses, 2:05:05.600 --> 2:05:08.200 frames and stuff and is helping people with that sort 2:05:08.240 --> 2:05:12.680 of stuff. And I'm in conversations with like the four Thieves, 2:05:12.800 --> 2:05:17.120 Vinegar collective. I think it's called. UM. Yeah, some of 2:05:17.160 --> 2:05:19.760 the folks doing like trying to do working on pharmaceutical 2:05:19.840 --> 2:05:24.320 hacking making at the moment like lower cost uh kind 2:05:24.360 --> 2:05:28.080 of home scratch brood versions of like different aids medications, 2:05:28.160 --> 2:05:32.360 and the Holy Grail is doing that with um insulin effectively. 2:05:33.040 --> 2:05:36.160 UM And I think it is. And I do think 2:05:36.240 --> 2:05:38.520 one of the things that's exciting about that is because 2:05:38.560 --> 2:05:41.000 the way in which the way in which collaboration on 2:05:41.120 --> 2:05:43.600 three D printing works, in the way in which actually spreading, 2:05:43.680 --> 2:05:45.920 like the ability to do stuff works. I think it's 2:05:45.960 --> 2:05:50.480 synergizes nicely with the ability of people to kind of 2:05:50.600 --> 2:05:53.080 reach other folks through writing or other forms of content, 2:05:53.120 --> 2:05:54.880 because they can both spread through the same You can 2:05:54.960 --> 2:05:57.000 have a video or a story, and you can have 2:05:57.200 --> 2:05:59.720 like kind of embedded guides on how to do that. 2:06:00.200 --> 2:06:03.440 UM I I I don't know that I've I've runned 2:06:03.600 --> 2:06:05.880 into a lot of your writings on kind of the 2:06:05.920 --> 2:06:08.440 potential of three D printing in this space, But I'm interested, 2:06:08.880 --> 2:06:11.560 like to what do you do. Are you looking at 2:06:11.600 --> 2:06:13.680 that as kind of an area of hope or do 2:06:13.760 --> 2:06:16.520 you see that still is kind of too two niche 2:06:16.600 --> 2:06:19.120 and labor focus to really actually take off in the 2:06:19.160 --> 2:06:21.080 way that it would need to to crack some of 2:06:21.120 --> 2:06:24.520 these nuts. This is where I do my my woody Allen, 2:06:24.880 --> 2:06:28.040 you know nothing of my work stick because I had 2:06:28.080 --> 2:06:32.920 this novel Maker Makers in two thousand and eight. It's 2:06:33.000 --> 2:06:36.720 it's why uh Bree Pettis went out and founded Maker 2:06:36.800 --> 2:06:40.840 Bought uh and it's you know, credited with like kickstarting 2:06:40.960 --> 2:06:44.280 the homebrew three D printed revolution blah blah blah blah 2:06:44.320 --> 2:06:47.320 blah and um and it was a very bullish novel 2:06:47.320 --> 2:06:50.879 about three D printing. I um, you know, the reality 2:06:50.960 --> 2:06:52.880 hasn't lived up to the hype yet. It may just 2:06:52.960 --> 2:06:55.040 be that we're in the long trough of despair, as 2:06:55.120 --> 2:06:59.040 the Gardner hype cycle model has it. Uh. But you know, 2:06:59.120 --> 2:07:02.960 I think the problem with three D printing was that 2:07:03.720 --> 2:07:05.960 the patents had been concentrated into the hands of two 2:07:06.080 --> 2:07:09.800 large firms that had bought all their competitors, including Maker 2:07:09.880 --> 2:07:13.600 Bought and UM. When those patents finally expired. The big 2:07:13.680 --> 2:07:17.520 one was the laser centering of of powder patent expired. 2:07:18.120 --> 2:07:20.120 There just wasn't a big bang. And I think it's 2:07:20.160 --> 2:07:23.440 because the supply chain for it still had a lot 2:07:23.480 --> 2:07:28.000 of proprietary elements and so producing the powder and producing 2:07:28.080 --> 2:07:33.400 the components that allowed for that powder printing remained a 2:07:33.560 --> 2:07:36.560 very high bar, and so we just didn't see the 2:07:36.680 --> 2:07:39.000 kind of new industry emerged that we would have hoped for. 2:07:39.600 --> 2:07:42.400 And you know, it's like seven years since those patents expired. 2:07:42.560 --> 2:07:44.880 Five years since those patent expired. Now we're seeing a 2:07:45.000 --> 2:07:47.560 few more of those powder printers. You get a lot 2:07:47.640 --> 2:07:51.800 more like UVY cured epoxy printers because those came off 2:07:51.840 --> 2:07:55.160 patent earlier and they have a less complicated supply chain. Um. 2:07:55.960 --> 2:07:58.880 But still, I mean mostly when we talked about printers, 2:07:58.960 --> 2:08:02.480 we're talking about filament, and just filaments just not a 2:08:02.600 --> 2:08:05.760 great technology. It's been pushed in ways that you wouldn't 2:08:05.800 --> 2:08:08.480 even believe, and people have figured out how to do 2:08:08.920 --> 2:08:14.360 absolutely incredible things with it. But it's not it's not 2:08:14.640 --> 2:08:17.360 something that you would make aerospace components for, you know, 2:08:17.640 --> 2:08:21.760 it's it's it's something that you make, um novelty dungeons 2:08:21.800 --> 2:08:25.720 and dragons dice, which is an important industry to disrupt. 2:08:25.760 --> 2:08:28.480 Don't get me wrong, but I'm with you, with you. 2:08:28.680 --> 2:08:30.600 I can remember paying thirty bucks for a set of 2:08:30.680 --> 2:08:33.640 dice as a kid and thinking somebody's gotta fix this scam. 2:08:34.840 --> 2:08:37.520 I can put you something for Christmas, Robert, Thank you Garrison. 2:08:37.600 --> 2:08:39.760 And you know now I I own a I bought 2:08:39.800 --> 2:08:41.520 a comic con a couple of years ago. I bought 2:08:41.560 --> 2:08:44.440 a tiny little D twenty made out of meteoric or 2:08:45.200 --> 2:08:48.120 I have a sky metal D twenty. Oh now that's yeah, 2:08:48.320 --> 2:08:52.280 that's that's classy. Um. I'm curious. We've got a little 2:08:52.280 --> 2:08:54.000 bit of time left, and I wanted to ask in 2:08:54.080 --> 2:08:56.600 your your novel Attack Surface. I know it was released 2:08:57.400 --> 2:09:01.720 right October if I'm not mistaken, um, And obviously a 2:09:01.800 --> 2:09:03.760 lot of that deals with again these kind of like 2:09:05.360 --> 2:09:07.800 corporations that have been contractors for the D O D 2:09:07.960 --> 2:09:11.640 doing like fucked up surveillance shit in Iraq and Afghanistan, 2:09:12.040 --> 2:09:15.080 bringing that technology to crack down on like US uh, 2:09:15.240 --> 2:09:18.640 sort of dissident left wing political movements. It comes out 2:09:18.720 --> 2:09:22.000 the year that we have a nationwide kind of uprising. 2:09:22.360 --> 2:09:25.760 Um that a lot of fucked up surveillance ship that 2:09:25.800 --> 2:09:28.080 had been kind of demoed state side around it like 2:09:28.240 --> 2:09:30.840 Standing Rock and whatnot, gets gets really put into its 2:09:30.880 --> 2:09:36.080 own How much of that was written before ship went down? 2:09:36.240 --> 2:09:38.880 And I and I'm assuming like I don't know exactly 2:09:38.920 --> 2:09:41.280 how your process works, but I'm wondering, like I assume 2:09:41.320 --> 2:09:44.160 you started the project before everything went the way it 2:09:44.240 --> 2:09:47.040 did last summer. How much did kind of what happened 2:09:47.120 --> 2:09:51.520 last summer affect the way you imagined that technology in 2:09:51.600 --> 2:09:55.040 those tactics functioning in that book. Yeah, the the timeline 2:09:55.080 --> 2:09:59.560 goes the other direction. I wrote that book before the 2:10:00.040 --> 2:10:03.720 are uprising, um long, long, long long before that, and 2:10:03.800 --> 2:10:07.200 I wrote it about things like, um, the surveillance technology 2:10:07.280 --> 2:10:11.080 we saw in Belarus and chev and also at Occupy 2:10:11.240 --> 2:10:16.240 and Standing Rock and at other Black Lives Matter demonstrations 2:10:16.280 --> 2:10:20.160 and uprisings in Americans. Yeah, and if you you know, 2:10:20.360 --> 2:10:27.040 also the monotonic expansion of surveillance leagues right where you know, 2:10:27.200 --> 2:10:30.160 first we learned about MC catchers, and then we learned 2:10:30.200 --> 2:10:33.160 about dirt boxes, which are MC catchers on airplanes, and 2:10:33.680 --> 2:10:36.160 you know, like we just all of that stuff leaked 2:10:36.240 --> 2:10:39.480 like crazy because you know, these surveillance giants are are 2:10:39.600 --> 2:10:43.600 not good at what they do, right, which isn't a 2:10:43.640 --> 2:10:46.960 reason we should be hopeful. A company that's bad at 2:10:47.000 --> 2:10:50.600 what it does is in some ways even worse because 2:10:50.680 --> 2:10:54.520 one of the ways that they're incompetence expresses itself is 2:10:54.560 --> 2:10:56.720 that they often gather a bunch of data on innocent 2:10:56.800 --> 2:11:00.800 people and then leak it. Yeah, right, not deliciously, just 2:11:00.960 --> 2:11:06.880 through incompetence. Um. And so you know, the this expansion 2:11:06.920 --> 2:11:09.160 of surveillance has like been on my mind for a 2:11:09.280 --> 2:11:11.720 long time, and I've been writing about it, well at 2:11:11.760 --> 2:11:13.960 least since Little Brother, Right, So two thousand and six, 2:11:14.040 --> 2:11:17.840 I wrote that novel, and I've had my finger in that. Yeah. 2:11:17.960 --> 2:11:19.840 So I've had my finger in that for all that time, 2:11:20.680 --> 2:11:24.160 and and working with the f F it's impossible to miss. Sure. 2:11:25.360 --> 2:11:27.920 Was there a degree to which, um, I don't know, 2:11:27.960 --> 2:11:30.240 I guess we're you surprised by anything that happened last time? 2:11:30.360 --> 2:11:33.480 Or did it just kind of comprehensively feel like these 2:11:33.480 --> 2:11:35.800 are everything slotting into place that I knew was heading 2:11:35.840 --> 2:11:37.480 in this direction? Because yeah, I mean you're right, I 2:11:37.560 --> 2:11:42.000 did like there was like everything was kind of presaged 2:11:42.440 --> 2:11:46.640 um years before. I'm yeah, I I'm wondering if if 2:11:46.680 --> 2:11:49.440 there was anything that kind of surprised you, um, or 2:11:49.600 --> 2:11:51.520 was it was it all just sort of what you've 2:11:51.520 --> 2:11:55.000 been braced for. Yeah, I don't feel like there were 2:11:55.160 --> 2:11:58.400 any kind of surveillance surprises. I mean the reverse the 2:12:00.080 --> 2:12:03.080 use of reverse warrants. I think we all kind of 2:12:03.680 --> 2:12:06.000 assumed was going on. There had been hints of it 2:12:06.160 --> 2:12:10.760 in Google's warrant canarias beforehand. But you know, those defense warrants, 2:12:10.800 --> 2:12:13.480 which again, if you're like sitting there going oh gofense, 2:12:13.520 --> 2:12:17.640 warrants are awesome because they're catching the one six rioters, Like, dude, 2:12:17.760 --> 2:12:21.120 you are going to be so disappointed, Holy sh it, 2:12:21.760 --> 2:12:25.800 that's not where they're going to keep using this. Yeah. Um, So, 2:12:26.000 --> 2:12:28.440 you know, learning more about those reverse warrants I think 2:12:28.600 --> 2:12:32.280 was was interesting. Um, but I don't feel like, I 2:12:32.400 --> 2:12:34.160 don't well, off the top of my head, I can't 2:12:34.160 --> 2:12:37.200 say that there was any new technical stuff that emerged. 2:12:37.240 --> 2:12:40.000 You know. I I am kickstarted the audio book for 2:12:40.240 --> 2:12:44.280 Attack Surface. Uh, and I offered as like the top 2:12:44.360 --> 2:12:47.520 tier you could commission short stories in the Little Brother universe, 2:12:48.120 --> 2:12:50.080 and there were three of those and I just finished 2:12:50.080 --> 2:12:53.040 the first of them, and it's about um future pipeline 2:12:53.080 --> 2:12:57.080 protests and uh. You know, I spent a lot of 2:12:57.160 --> 2:13:00.480 time in my research looking at the survey that was 2:13:00.560 --> 2:13:02.880 done on the pipeline protests, and a lot of it 2:13:03.000 --> 2:13:07.480 was provocateurs and undercovers who were just terrible at their jobs, right, 2:13:07.560 --> 2:13:11.760 like the intercepts, long publication of of uh, you know, 2:13:11.840 --> 2:13:14.920 long documents about how those operators worked. They just like 2:13:15.040 --> 2:13:18.320 showed up in military haircuts and combat boots. And then 2:13:18.360 --> 2:13:21.040 we're like, hey, I'm from Portland and I'm here because 2:13:21.040 --> 2:13:23.680 we're gonna funk up some bad guys. Let's go do it. 2:13:23.840 --> 2:13:27.080 Let's go do violence and save Indian country. And like 2:13:27.200 --> 2:13:29.280 everyone was like you and like does anyone want to 2:13:29.320 --> 2:13:34.600 buy drugs? And and the actual protesters were like, you're 2:13:34.640 --> 2:13:38.600 a provocateur, like go away, you know, like they could tell. 2:13:38.680 --> 2:13:40.160 I mean, I guess you know, there are a lot 2:13:40.240 --> 2:13:43.160 more effective in the UK in infiltrating the climate movement. 2:13:43.280 --> 2:13:47.240 You know, they impregnated several protesters, so you know, and 2:13:47.400 --> 2:13:50.400 had long term relationships with them and raised kids with them. 2:13:50.520 --> 2:13:54.200 So there is that. But here stories yeah, here, it 2:13:54.360 --> 2:13:58.840 was not that we didn't just didn't see that incredible efficacy. Yeah, 2:13:58.920 --> 2:14:01.640 and I do think it. That's I think kind of 2:14:01.720 --> 2:14:03.560 the message I took out of it because I I 2:14:03.760 --> 2:14:06.400 was I started reporting on like dirt boxes back during 2:14:06.480 --> 2:14:09.040 Standing Rock, just having them like it explained to me 2:14:09.160 --> 2:14:11.040 by people who were on the ground when I showed 2:14:11.120 --> 2:14:14.080 up that like, yeah, there's this your like phones don't 2:14:14.120 --> 2:14:15.760 work the same out here, and like we're trying to 2:14:15.800 --> 2:14:17.880 figure out what's going on, but like everything is is 2:14:18.040 --> 2:14:19.760 and it's not just that we're out in the sticks 2:14:19.880 --> 2:14:22.680 or anything. And I think the only surprise, the big 2:14:22.720 --> 2:14:25.400 surprise for me last year was how I think how 2:14:25.560 --> 2:14:29.880 little the technology accomplished for them and how much it 2:14:30.040 --> 2:14:32.080 just it just wound up back down to violence. Was 2:14:32.360 --> 2:14:34.360 like that was kind of the for all of the 2:14:34.720 --> 2:14:36.800 toys they had. The toys that actually made the most 2:14:36.840 --> 2:14:39.760 difference was gassing and beating people and violence and like 2:14:40.600 --> 2:14:43.720 old fashioned informants that was that was the stuff, and 2:14:43.800 --> 2:14:47.080 just having a dude there. Yeah, they were really relied on. 2:14:47.320 --> 2:14:49.720 And the fact that you that that you, Corey, weren't 2:14:49.720 --> 2:14:52.240 super surprised, But anything last year I think kind of 2:14:52.400 --> 2:14:55.200 just more shows kind of the strength of your work 2:14:55.280 --> 2:14:57.760 in terms of how you're very good at seeing the 2:14:57.880 --> 2:15:01.120 trends that are already happening but taking them to their 2:15:01.200 --> 2:15:05.320 next logical place. Um and it's a really great way 2:15:05.400 --> 2:15:07.840 to kind of get a sense of what is something, 2:15:08.720 --> 2:15:11.280 what what will something maybe look like in the next 2:15:11.800 --> 2:15:13.800 decade or so, because it's it's all based on already 2:15:13.840 --> 2:15:17.040 existing stuff, just in different kind of original ways. So 2:15:17.040 --> 2:15:19.240 that's why I think it's it's so useful to look 2:15:19.280 --> 2:15:22.920 at your books as as an activist, specifically around like 2:15:23.360 --> 2:15:26.920 surveillance and stuff, because it's it's just really it's it's 2:15:26.920 --> 2:15:29.560 really good for kind of keeping keeping an eye on, 2:15:30.280 --> 2:15:33.120 keeping your head, yeah, and and keeping an eye on 2:15:33.200 --> 2:15:35.440 what's keeping an eye on you, um and all that 2:15:35.560 --> 2:15:38.320 kind of stuff. This was a really lovely conversation. Was 2:15:38.320 --> 2:15:41.200 a lovely last thing to do in my home office 2:15:41.280 --> 2:15:44.800 in because I leave tomorrow and won't be back until 2:15:44.800 --> 2:15:47.320 the next year, and then I'm actually gonna be offline 2:15:47.360 --> 2:15:50.000 for a month after a joint replacement. So it was 2:15:50.320 --> 2:15:51.960 it was really lovely to meet you all on to 2:15:52.080 --> 2:15:54.640 chat with you. Thanks so much for chatting with us today, Glory, 2:16:02.640 --> 2:16:04.560 what's up? Guys? Have a shop Aloud and I am 2:16:04.600 --> 2:16:06.440 Troy Millions and we are the host of the Earnier 2:16:06.520 --> 2:16:10.040 Leisure podcast where we break down business models and examine 2:16:10.080 --> 2:16:12.400 the latest trends and finance. We hold court and have 2:16:12.440 --> 2:16:14.600 exclusive interviews with some of the biggest names of business, 2:16:14.640 --> 2:16:18.040 sport and entertainment, from DJ Khaled to Mark Cuban, Rick Ross, 2:16:18.080 --> 2:16:21.200 and Shaquille O'Neil. I mean our alumnilists expansive. Listen to 2:16:21.320 --> 2:16:23.960 as our guests reveal their business models, hardships and triumphs 2:16:24.000 --> 2:16:26.040 and their respective fields. The knowledge is in death and 2:16:26.080 --> 2:16:29.080 the questions are always delivered from your standpoint. We want 2:16:29.080 --> 2:16:30.960 to know what you want to know. We talked to 2:16:31.040 --> 2:16:33.959 the legends of business, sports and entertainment about how they 2:16:34.040 --> 2:16:36.800 got their start and most importantly, how they make their money. 2:16:37.000 --> 2:16:39.240 Earn your Leisia is a college business class mixed with 2:16:39.320 --> 2:16:42.199 pop culture. I want to learn about the real estate game, unclears, 2:16:42.360 --> 2:16:44.800 how the stock market works. We got you interested in 2:16:44.879 --> 2:16:47.240 starting a truck and company or vending machine business. Not 2:16:47.360 --> 2:16:49.920 really sure about how taxes or credit work. We got 2:16:50.000 --> 2:16:52.920 it all covered. The Earnier Leisure podcast is available now. 2:16:53.360 --> 2:16:56.199 Listen to Earnier Leisure on the Black Effect podcast Network, 2:16:56.440 --> 2:16:59.440 I Heart Radio, app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get 2:16:59.440 --> 2:17:07.280 your podcast. Raffie is the voice of some of the 2:17:07.440 --> 2:17:13.480 happiest songs of our generation. Babya So who is the 2:17:13.520 --> 2:17:18.480 man behind Baby Bluga. Every human being wants to feel respected. 2:17:18.879 --> 2:17:22.920 When we start with young, all good things can grow 2:17:23.080 --> 2:17:26.400 from there. I'm Chris Garcia, comedian New dad and host 2:17:26.480 --> 2:17:29.240 of Finding Raffie, a new podcast from My Heart Radio 2:17:29.440 --> 2:17:32.560 and Fatherly Listen every Tuesday on the I Heart Radio 2:17:32.600 --> 2:17:36.160 app or wherever you get your podcasts. The art world 2:17:36.280 --> 2:17:40.440 it is essentially a money laundering business. The best fakes 2:17:40.480 --> 2:17:43.000 are still hanging on people's walls. You know, they don't 2:17:43.040 --> 2:17:46.879 even know or suspect that they're fakes. I'm Alec Baldwin 2:17:47.080 --> 2:17:51.359 and this is a podcast about deception, greed and forgery 2:17:51.760 --> 2:17:54.400 in the art world. You knew the painting was fake? 2:17:55.920 --> 2:18:01.520 Um Listen to Art Fraud starting Bory fet on the 2:18:01.640 --> 2:18:05.800 I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get 2:18:05.840 --> 2:18:22.760 your podcasts. You know what, I think it's time to 2:18:22.840 --> 2:18:29.760 do a podcast. All right, I did it, Sophie. This 2:18:29.920 --> 2:18:32.880 is it could happen here a podcast that's begun. We 2:18:33.000 --> 2:18:36.600 talk about how things are falling apart, and occasionally, when 2:18:36.640 --> 2:18:39.840 we're feeling good, how to maybe how to maybe put 2:18:39.920 --> 2:18:42.520 them back together a little bit. But today we're more 2:18:42.600 --> 2:18:48.360 talking about the growing consensus that things in the US 2:18:48.440 --> 2:18:53.120 culture wars are heating up to an unacceptable level and 2:18:53.360 --> 2:18:56.640 and maybe people are going to start doing some non 2:18:56.800 --> 2:19:00.400 culture type wars here in the near future, like civil 2:19:00.600 --> 2:19:02.480 type war here in the near future. Those of you 2:19:02.520 --> 2:19:04.760 who know me, which why would you be listening to 2:19:04.840 --> 2:19:07.880 this podcast if you if you don't know, like the 2:19:08.000 --> 2:19:11.280 earlier seasons of this exact show, uh know that I 2:19:11.400 --> 2:19:13.800 talk a lot about the potential of a mass civil 2:19:13.879 --> 2:19:16.480 conflict in the United States. I've been kind of trying 2:19:16.520 --> 2:19:18.560 to warn about it for a while, and today we're 2:19:18.560 --> 2:19:22.359 gonna do an episode about some of the more mainstream 2:19:22.680 --> 2:19:26.160 sources that have started to kind of accept this as 2:19:26.200 --> 2:19:30.240 a possibility, um and get concerned about it. Garrison, You've 2:19:30.280 --> 2:19:34.320 presented us with three articles, one from NBC News, one 2:19:34.480 --> 2:19:39.320 from The Independent, and one from the Brookings Institute, all 2:19:39.480 --> 2:19:44.320 kind of fiddling around this idea that certain unnamed journalists 2:19:44.520 --> 2:19:48.000 have spent years discussing. So, yeah, we're gonna we're gonna 2:19:48.040 --> 2:19:52.360 get into it. Garrison. Yeah, So it is that the 2:19:52.440 --> 2:19:55.200 past the past few months, we have well I've I've 2:19:55.240 --> 2:19:59.160 been watching to see how how this idea has been 2:19:59.240 --> 2:20:02.160 slowly kind of eating in popularity. Of course, there was 2:20:02.200 --> 2:20:04.400 like a spike in this around like January six, but 2:20:04.480 --> 2:20:06.960 then stuff kind of settled down, and now we're kind 2:20:07.000 --> 2:20:09.680 of seeing it come back up against we had these 2:20:09.959 --> 2:20:12.040 these three pieces, all published within like a month of 2:20:12.120 --> 2:20:16.200 each other, um all kind of on this topic, and specifically, 2:20:16.240 --> 2:20:20.280 like the pieces themselves are definitely going coming out this 2:20:20.360 --> 2:20:23.880 from a more like liberal perspective. But the thing that 2:20:23.920 --> 2:20:26.080 made them interesting is that they did have a decent 2:20:26.200 --> 2:20:29.480 number of like of of polls and uh and and 2:20:29.640 --> 2:20:32.480 surveys in them based on like what who who what 2:20:32.600 --> 2:20:35.680 types of people think are like are thinking about this 2:20:35.760 --> 2:20:38.320 and think it's more more of a possibility. One survey 2:20:38.440 --> 2:20:44.160 published on November one, they've said eighteen percent of Americans 2:20:45.120 --> 2:20:49.200 believe that quote unquote patriots might have to resort to 2:20:49.280 --> 2:20:52.720 violence to quote save the country. Um so. And then 2:20:52.800 --> 2:20:56.480 that included a thirty percent of Republicans um so, but 2:20:56.720 --> 2:20:58.840 eighteen percent of all of of of of Americans in 2:20:58.879 --> 2:21:02.720 general of republic and so using that very specifically turn 2:21:02.760 --> 2:21:07.600 of phrase is definitely uh notable. And then another pole 2:21:07.640 --> 2:21:10.720 from are there in the Air found that forty six 2:21:10.840 --> 2:21:14.320 percent of people thought the country was somewhat or very 2:21:14.480 --> 2:21:18.960 likely to have another type of civil war. And that's 2:21:19.000 --> 2:21:21.400 the plurality of the people pulled in that because only 2:21:21.720 --> 2:21:25.360 like said unlikely, So the majority of people are not 2:21:25.480 --> 2:21:28.240 the majority of people pulled, but like the most common 2:21:29.800 --> 2:21:32.400 leaned on, yes, it is, I think we're going to 2:21:32.480 --> 2:21:34.840 have us a war, yeah, which is not great. The 2:21:34.879 --> 2:21:38.600 one that uh NBC published included in their article had 2:21:38.640 --> 2:21:41.119 but like thirty three percent of people saying no, it's 2:21:41.160 --> 2:21:44.160 it's probably not gonna happen, kind of on the maybe 2:21:44.640 --> 2:21:48.160 and and and and forty seven leaning on yeah this, maybe, 2:21:48.240 --> 2:21:51.720 this is, this is probably gonna happen at some point soon. YEP. 2:21:52.520 --> 2:21:54.280 I mean a lot of a lot a lot of 2:21:54.480 --> 2:21:56.520 what these articles are talking about is just like kind 2:21:56.560 --> 2:22:01.360 of the increased increased threats against like elected officials and 2:22:01.480 --> 2:22:06.080 then increased almost like militancy or performative militancy of elected 2:22:06.120 --> 2:22:09.840 officials types of like like you know, like a performatively 2:22:10.000 --> 2:22:12.360 bringing your gun into Congress and that type of thing. 2:22:12.680 --> 2:22:14.400 And it lays out like a list of a list 2:22:14.480 --> 2:22:18.960 of like of of of threats or stuff enacted against governors, congressmen, 2:22:19.240 --> 2:22:22.200 all that kind of stuff in in the past, in 2:22:22.280 --> 2:22:26.000 the past, like a year year mainly. Yeah. One of 2:22:26.040 --> 2:22:29.480 the things I really disagree about the Brookings because Brookings 2:22:29.560 --> 2:22:31.720 is the one who kind of is analyzing that made 2:22:31.800 --> 2:22:34.119 that big poll and talking about it, has a list 2:22:34.200 --> 2:22:37.000 of reasons why we might have a civil war and 2:22:37.080 --> 2:22:39.560 a list of reasons why it's unlikely. And one of 2:22:39.640 --> 2:22:41.760 the reasons why it's unlikely is quote most of the 2:22:41.879 --> 2:22:46.039 organizations talking about civil war or private not public entities, um. 2:22:46.600 --> 2:22:49.200 And note that when Southern States seceded in eighteen sixty, 2:22:49.240 --> 2:22:52.760 they had police forces, military organizations, and state sponsored militias. 2:22:53.680 --> 2:23:00.360 The rights of that now, Yeah, Like there's a ton 2:23:00.440 --> 2:23:05.680 of signal posting from guys like Jim Jordan's uh Hawthorne um, 2:23:06.040 --> 2:23:12.160 Gates Bobert um, a ton of signal posting of Gostre 2:23:12.760 --> 2:23:16.800 from elected Republican leaders, from governors, from state level elected officials, 2:23:17.600 --> 2:23:20.560 and like regular street cops. Yeah, and like regular street 2:23:20.600 --> 2:23:24.120 cops that are like civil war adjacent, um, if not 2:23:24.400 --> 2:23:27.680 directly advocating for internet scene violence. So I think that 2:23:27.800 --> 2:23:31.640 that I don't think Brookings, I don't think they're analysis 2:23:31.720 --> 2:23:36.080 is spot on with this. And I think there's just 2:23:36.160 --> 2:23:37.960 one of every thing that's interesting about that, which is 2:23:39.760 --> 2:23:43.440 I think it was one of those are these our 2:23:43.440 --> 2:23:45.920 sles arguing that it was like, well, the Pentagon's not 2:23:46.040 --> 2:23:48.960 particularly civil Like, well, the Pentagon doesn't want a civil war, 2:23:48.959 --> 2:23:50.520 They're not gonna step into it. But but I think 2:23:50.560 --> 2:23:52.960 it is also important to note that, like, like if 2:23:53.000 --> 2:23:56.200 remember what happened last summer, there's a lot of FEDS 2:23:56.480 --> 2:23:59.640 who are just like you know, like when like yeah, 2:23:59.760 --> 2:24:02.800 so's you know, the army kind of doesn't want Trump 2:24:02.920 --> 2:24:06.760 to like send the army against protesters, but like you know, 2:24:06.959 --> 2:24:13.720 like Bortach for example, like was just like absolutely hyped 2:24:13.800 --> 2:24:17.680 up to just like absolutely just go disappear a bunch 2:24:17.720 --> 2:24:20.680 of people, and they were very excited about that part. Yeah, Yeah, 2:24:20.680 --> 2:24:23.920 they love they love this stuff, and it's like, yeah, 2:24:23.959 --> 2:24:26.480 the notion that it's less likely because it doesn't have 2:24:26.720 --> 2:24:29.960 like formal police backing is really silly because if you 2:24:30.000 --> 2:24:32.960 spend any time monitoring these type of militia groups, you 2:24:33.040 --> 2:24:35.160 know that a good portion of them are also members 2:24:35.200 --> 2:24:37.120 of some type of law enforcement or have like family 2:24:37.200 --> 2:24:42.080 connections to member. There have been a bunch of cases 2:24:42.120 --> 2:24:46.160 of weapons being stolen stolen from forts UM, particularly in 2:24:46.240 --> 2:24:48.120 like the West Coast right now, Like, yeah, there's a 2:24:48.160 --> 2:24:50.920 ton of connections to the and a ton of like 2:24:51.040 --> 2:24:53.120 members in common. It's like at the Capital riot that 2:24:53.200 --> 2:24:56.840 were like thirty something active duty police officers involved. UM. 2:24:57.920 --> 2:25:00.760 To say that there's not direct connections with law enforcement 2:25:00.920 --> 2:25:05.600 is nonsense. And it's true that, like our military leadership 2:25:06.480 --> 2:25:09.720 remains pretty much a political and very like committed to 2:25:09.840 --> 2:25:12.200 being a political in the sense that like in the 2:25:12.520 --> 2:25:16.160 within the like US partisan context, right, Like they don't 2:25:16.240 --> 2:25:19.400 come in to prop up the Democrats of the Republicans, 2:25:19.440 --> 2:25:23.360 and I don't think that's immediately likely. But police forces 2:25:23.400 --> 2:25:26.400 in the United States are extremely politicized and have more 2:25:26.480 --> 2:25:31.640 than enough power to carry out a counterinsurgency campaign nationwide. 2:25:31.680 --> 2:25:33.680 And as long as the US military didn't step in, 2:25:33.840 --> 2:25:36.760 and why would they, Like the cops are willing and 2:25:36.840 --> 2:25:41.200 able to do the civil warring for the government. Why 2:25:41.240 --> 2:25:43.360 do you think they have all those tanks? You know? 2:25:43.840 --> 2:25:45.240 So yeah, like there is there is a lot of 2:25:45.280 --> 2:25:49.000 backing um, at least performatively among certain types of writing 2:25:49.120 --> 2:25:51.480 politicians and of course police. But I think a lot 2:25:51.520 --> 2:25:53.400 of what the politicians are trying to do is more 2:25:53.480 --> 2:25:59.040 like encourage regular folks or people in like civilian militias 2:25:59.280 --> 2:26:03.480 to just start doing violence against other elected leaders. That 2:26:03.560 --> 2:26:06.440 it seems to be like like like Bobart and that, 2:26:06.640 --> 2:26:09.400 and those types aren't they They're not like telling police 2:26:09.480 --> 2:26:12.840 to go do this. They're speaking to like regular people um. 2:26:13.400 --> 2:26:16.400 And I think one one one decent point the actually 2:26:16.400 --> 2:26:18.160 the nbc PS actually puts out it says, all of 2:26:18.200 --> 2:26:21.640 this kind of like divisive um and and more violent 2:26:22.360 --> 2:26:25.640 rhetoric and behavior displayed by and towards some of our 2:26:25.680 --> 2:26:28.680 elected officials does not necessarily mean another like civil war 2:26:29.680 --> 2:26:33.440 in terms of like a military conduct contest between states. Um. 2:26:33.680 --> 2:26:35.400 It just does not mean that it's inevitable or even 2:26:35.440 --> 2:26:38.400 probable or even like probable. A more likely scenario is 2:26:38.480 --> 2:26:43.240 a turbulent era of civil disturbances, armed confrontations, standoffs, threats, 2:26:43.240 --> 2:26:46.800 assassination attempts, and other acts of political violence. In other words, 2:26:47.680 --> 2:26:49.840 one that's a lot like the last two years of 2:26:49.920 --> 2:26:52.320 American history, which I feel like, yeah, in terms of 2:26:53.000 --> 2:26:54.760 in terms of the likelihood of there being like a 2:26:54.840 --> 2:26:59.720 more formally declared kind of conflict versus just first just 2:26:59.800 --> 2:27:07.640 like increasingly increasingly normalizing extreme violence against uh you know, 2:27:08.040 --> 2:27:12.080 quote unquote fellow countrymen. I think is is a yeah, 2:27:12.160 --> 2:27:14.240 like there's we are going to be more likely to 2:27:14.320 --> 2:27:16.800 be just moving in that direction slowly, and at the 2:27:16.920 --> 2:27:20.320 point when there's like frequent enough exchange of the fire, 2:27:20.640 --> 2:27:22.880 that's when we say, yeah, we're basically in a civil war. 2:27:22.959 --> 2:27:25.680 We're just not calling it that, um, which is you know, 2:27:25.879 --> 2:27:28.080 that's the points that you Robert, you have made a 2:27:28.160 --> 2:27:32.520 lot in the in the past. Yeah, I mean, and 2:27:32.640 --> 2:27:36.000 there's I I'm I think a lot of this is 2:27:36.160 --> 2:27:38.720 just a failure of kind of imagination and ability to 2:27:38.800 --> 2:27:42.080 accept from a group like Brookings, who I know has 2:27:42.120 --> 2:27:44.840 paid some attention to the Syrian Civil War, that like 2:27:45.120 --> 2:27:48.720 civil conflicts in the United States or in the in 2:27:49.040 --> 2:27:52.600 the twenty one century often don't like there's no clear 2:27:52.680 --> 2:27:54.440 regional split. Like you look at a lot of what 2:27:54.600 --> 2:27:56.959 was happening in Syria. You had cities divided up by 2:27:57.000 --> 2:28:01.720 neighborhoods between like who who was in charge? Um, you 2:28:01.840 --> 2:28:04.880 know that that's very much what we see here. And 2:28:04.920 --> 2:28:07.360 you do see like clear regional split between urban and 2:28:07.480 --> 2:28:11.039 rural divides. And it's not like they say, within specific states, 2:28:11.160 --> 2:28:14.480 but like I would say, it's very specific and limited 2:28:14.520 --> 2:28:18.120 states that don't have huge urban rural divides. Um, Like 2:28:18.280 --> 2:28:21.160 that's that is the norm everywhere in this country that 2:28:21.240 --> 2:28:25.440 I've been. Maybe it's different in fucking Vermont or New Hampshire, 2:28:25.520 --> 2:28:29.320 but I don't trust those places. Um. Yeah, and I 2:28:29.720 --> 2:28:36.480 guess I think they're overly optimistic based on kind of 2:28:36.520 --> 2:28:39.800 a fundamental misunderstanding of how these sorts of conflicts occur. 2:28:40.240 --> 2:28:44.040 Um that said, I don't know, like it's it's one 2:28:44.080 --> 2:28:47.000 of those things. I think the number one the number 2:28:47.040 --> 2:28:49.080 one thing you should be looking at in terms of 2:28:49.160 --> 2:28:53.040 whether or not a civil war is likely is the 2:28:53.160 --> 2:28:56.520 number of people who respond in polls with things like, yes, 2:28:56.600 --> 2:28:59.080 I think we need to use violence to restore the 2:28:59.200 --> 2:29:03.680 nation or what ever. Um That it's not just enough, 2:29:03.800 --> 2:29:06.320 like I I it's not just enough to think that 2:29:06.440 --> 2:29:08.680 a civil war is likely, because a lot of that's 2:29:08.720 --> 2:29:11.119 just based on people who don't want one, but are 2:29:11.160 --> 2:29:13.600 paying attention to the same media as everybody else and 2:29:13.959 --> 2:29:16.160 are watching the same stuff we're watching, and they're like, well, 2:29:16.200 --> 2:29:19.680 this seems sketchy. I think that the main indicator is 2:29:20.480 --> 2:29:23.960 the number of people who respond, yeah, I think it 2:29:24.000 --> 2:29:26.480 would be awesome to use violence as a like in 2:29:26.680 --> 2:29:30.520 order to make America more like what I wanted to be. Um. 2:29:31.920 --> 2:29:34.720 And again, that doesn't mean we'll we'll creep over the point. 2:29:34.760 --> 2:29:37.879 There's a number of interesting things that have happened. UM 2:29:38.360 --> 2:29:41.440 on kind of the we're headed towards the civil war side. 2:29:41.600 --> 2:29:44.040 The number one thing that I've seen recently is the 2:29:44.160 --> 2:29:48.480 use of paramilitary organizations UM to kind of choke uh, 2:29:48.840 --> 2:29:53.480 local civil institutions, um, like school boards. I see that 2:29:53.520 --> 2:29:56.600 as very concerning and as kind of prelude to the 2:29:56.680 --> 2:30:00.760 sort of armed mobilizations that you would see a unlocalized 2:30:00.800 --> 2:30:03.920 areas in any kind of civil conflict. It's it's the 2:30:04.480 --> 2:30:07.040 precursors to death squads. So that's the that's the thing 2:30:07.120 --> 2:30:10.199 that I see on the ground that worries me most, 2:30:11.000 --> 2:30:14.840 um in terms of the thing that I'm I'm less 2:30:14.840 --> 2:30:17.240 certain about honestly, Like one of the things they note 2:30:17.280 --> 2:30:19.320 in here in the Brookings article that like the sheer 2:30:19.480 --> 2:30:21.640 number of guns in the United States is a reason 2:30:21.720 --> 2:30:23.760 why we might have a civil war, and I agree 2:30:23.800 --> 2:30:26.880 with that entirely. When you have four million weapons in 2:30:26.959 --> 2:30:29.880 private hands, it increases the odds that they'll be used 2:30:29.920 --> 2:30:33.879 in some sort of scale. Um. We've also seen historic 2:30:34.040 --> 2:30:38.879 numbers of non white people of of of like folks 2:30:39.040 --> 2:30:42.720 who are from marginalized communities, UM, not just buying up 2:30:42.800 --> 2:30:46.640 weapons that unprecedented rates, but organizing with them. And I'm 2:30:46.680 --> 2:30:49.640 not really sure how to think of that. There's certainly 2:30:49.800 --> 2:30:53.160 a way it could certainly be a very negative development, 2:30:53.200 --> 2:30:55.600 but it could also be. I think a big part 2:30:55.680 --> 2:30:59.160 of what I've seen from the right lately is the 2:30:59.280 --> 2:31:02.640 sense of impede unity. UM. And I think the feeling 2:31:02.760 --> 2:31:09.520 of being matched in arms is an end to impunity potentially. UM. 2:31:09.760 --> 2:31:11.720 Then the big question is like, well what about the police, 2:31:11.800 --> 2:31:13.600 and like, well if the police side with the riot 2:31:13.640 --> 2:31:16.440 against you know, there's there's still a number of questions 2:31:16.480 --> 2:31:19.400 there and we don't have any clean answers. But um, 2:31:20.040 --> 2:31:22.560 I don't know that. I I think that on the 2:31:22.640 --> 2:31:25.720 whole I'm more worried than I was two years ago 2:31:25.879 --> 2:31:28.840 when I wrote it could happen here. Um. But it's 2:31:28.879 --> 2:31:32.440 not clean, and I think in some to some extent, 2:31:32.680 --> 2:31:35.560 I'm I'm a little more worried about something like the 2:31:35.640 --> 2:31:39.240 years of lead in Italy than I am about Syria 2:31:39.640 --> 2:31:42.520 right now, if that makes sense. I will say one 2:31:42.640 --> 2:31:45.240 thing about the years of lead, which because a lot 2:31:45.280 --> 2:31:46.720 of people talk about the years of less that the 2:31:46.840 --> 2:31:50.440 years a letter, this kind of like a roughly ten 2:31:50.560 --> 2:31:55.840 year period in Italy of I don't know, mass herostic 2:31:56.240 --> 2:32:00.160 escalating political violence with effigant body counts in a way 2:32:00.200 --> 2:32:02.560 that stood out from the years around it. Yeah, and 2:32:02.560 --> 2:32:04.720 I mean you know, the years of Lead has and 2:32:04.760 --> 2:32:06.400 the use at Also there's there's a bunch of intelligence 2:32:06.400 --> 2:32:09.120 agents involved. There's a lot of four kind false flag 2:32:09.520 --> 2:32:11.760 false flag bombings, like hundred hundreds of people are being 2:32:11.800 --> 2:32:16.200 killed in bombings. And I think there's one absolutely crucial 2:32:16.320 --> 2:32:20.560 difference between now in the years of let. I mean, well, okay, 2:32:20.800 --> 2:32:24.039 so partially it's that unlike Italy, we don't have seventeen 2:32:24.080 --> 2:32:26.360 thousand intelligence agenci is operating in the US and like 2:32:26.440 --> 2:32:28.840 trying to kidnap and kill the foreign prime minister. But 2:32:29.040 --> 2:32:33.520 the the other thing that's very important is that unlike 2:32:33.640 --> 2:32:37.120 unlike the Italian left, and you know, really unlike the 2:32:37.320 --> 2:32:40.200 whole global left of the seventies and eighties, there is 2:32:40.320 --> 2:32:45.720 no American like left wing like left wing. I guess 2:32:45.760 --> 2:32:47.800 you could call like there's there's no left wing terrorist tradition, 2:32:47.920 --> 2:32:50.240 right like the like the left doesn't do suside bombings, 2:32:50.280 --> 2:32:53.680 The left doesn't kidnap people like like the modern American 2:32:53.760 --> 2:32:56.200 leftis doesn't do that, And that a big part of 2:32:56.320 --> 2:32:58.240 of what was happening in the years of Lead was that, 2:32:58.920 --> 2:33:00.880 you know, sometimes the left was doing this. A lot 2:33:00.920 --> 2:33:02.880 of times it was the state pretending to be the 2:33:02.959 --> 2:33:07.520 left carrying up bombings, and that isn't really something that 2:33:07.680 --> 2:33:11.200 is happening right now because there's just like the like, 2:33:11.840 --> 2:33:16.640 the the left is not in a place where everyone 2:33:16.840 --> 2:33:19.039 is going, we need to do armed urban guerrilla movements 2:33:20.000 --> 2:33:21.920 and yeah. So and then that that makes it harder 2:33:21.959 --> 2:33:25.400 to sort of pin things like pin actual urban guerrilla 2:33:25.440 --> 2:33:27.520 movement stuff on the left because there's just none of that. 2:33:28.000 --> 2:33:31.360 But I don't think and I agree years of Left 2:33:31.440 --> 2:33:35.240 is kind of like a broad Strokes comparison, because what 2:33:35.320 --> 2:33:38.240 I see is more likely is what we're what we're 2:33:38.240 --> 2:33:40.920 already witnessing on the ground with these right wing militant 2:33:40.959 --> 2:33:43.720 groups increases, and they moved to the point of kidnapping 2:33:44.000 --> 2:33:47.240 and executing and potentially in concert with law enforcement, like 2:33:47.879 --> 2:33:51.480 doing stuff like in states that have issued harsh laws, 2:33:51.720 --> 2:33:54.160 you know, banning certain books you have in a town, 2:33:54.440 --> 2:33:57.480 local law enforcement and militias like go after and grab 2:33:57.600 --> 2:34:00.440 individual leftists and either kill or im a is in them, 2:34:00.920 --> 2:34:03.840 and conflicts over that, and you have the left increasingly 2:34:04.000 --> 2:34:08.520 organized an arm um as a defense against that, and 2:34:08.600 --> 2:34:11.280 then a number of armed conflicts you know, as a 2:34:11.320 --> 2:34:13.840 result of that, which maybe then proceed to bombings and 2:34:13.920 --> 2:34:16.920 stuff that that's terrorism or proceed to just more kind 2:34:16.959 --> 2:34:22.360 of skirmishes that the FEDS have a minimal response to, 2:34:22.640 --> 2:34:25.560 and local or state law enforcement kind of tacitly allows. 2:34:25.959 --> 2:34:29.480 Um like that. That's that's kind of obviously that's not 2:34:29.640 --> 2:34:32.000 a direct comparison to what happened in Italy, but of 2:34:32.040 --> 2:34:34.760 course we're a different country. But that's kind of that's 2:34:34.800 --> 2:34:37.360 kind of the the kind of brush fire conflict I 2:34:37.440 --> 2:34:40.960 could see cropping up in the very near future in 2:34:41.040 --> 2:34:46.959 this country. You know what else will start a series 2:34:47.040 --> 2:34:53.480 of armed gunfights between left and right in American towns. 2:34:55.800 --> 2:35:01.040 The products and services they they're they're working on it 2:35:01.160 --> 2:35:04.039 every day. The products and services that support this podcast 2:35:04.480 --> 2:35:07.840 urged violence on the streets of the United States. That's 2:35:07.879 --> 2:35:13.440 behind the bastards. Guarantee, Sophie, we're not doing behind the bastards? 2:35:14.080 --> 2:35:18.760 What what show are we? Who are we? Anyway? Here's ads? 2:35:20.120 --> 2:35:24.800 All right? Oh my gosh, uh we're back. Yeah, what 2:35:24.879 --> 2:35:28.760 a great ad. I really nailed that transition. Um, just 2:35:29.160 --> 2:35:35.160 absolutely so. The next thing that I want to talk about, UM, 2:35:35.600 --> 2:35:40.400 something that I think has some some backing behind it, 2:35:40.480 --> 2:35:42.320 and something that I think is kind of more silly, 2:35:43.080 --> 2:35:45.200 is that one of one of the reasons that this 2:35:45.520 --> 2:35:50.720 uh NBC piece by what's his name, uh, Brian Brian 2:35:50.800 --> 2:35:57.120 Michael Jenkins is uh. He says. One of one of 2:35:57.200 --> 2:36:00.520 the reasons that we're kind of getting more okay with, 2:36:01.080 --> 2:36:05.600 you know, uh, killing or hurting our neighbors essentially is 2:36:05.800 --> 2:36:10.520 um quote, Americans do fewer things together. Church attendance is declining. 2:36:10.720 --> 2:36:14.000 Membership and civic organizations and lodges have been decreasing for decades. 2:36:14.240 --> 2:36:16.560 PTA membership has dropped by nearly half from what it 2:36:16.640 --> 2:36:21.040 was in nineteen sixties, Bowling leagues have almost disappeared, and 2:36:21.160 --> 2:36:25.680 a shared national experience of military service disintegrated with the 2:36:25.760 --> 2:36:31.240 abolition of conscription in nineteen seventy three. Meanwhile, self proclaimed 2:36:31.280 --> 2:36:34.600 citizen militia's driven mainly by far right conspiracy theories, have 2:36:34.760 --> 2:36:37.039 surged since to US and eight, especially in the past 2:36:37.120 --> 2:36:44.520 five years. So he is wrong, but he's yes, militias 2:36:44.600 --> 2:36:49.320 have leagues, militias have risen. But is that due to 2:36:49.480 --> 2:36:51.760 bowling leagues. Yeah, I don't think it's due to a 2:36:51.920 --> 2:36:54.560 drop in bowling leagues. I think it's due to the 2:36:54.600 --> 2:36:57.680 fact that all these guys are terminally online now and 2:36:57.920 --> 2:37:00.960 we're watching Fox news for twenty years before that. That 2:37:01.120 --> 2:37:03.320 that is the thing is that like, I don't think 2:37:03.400 --> 2:37:07.320 this guy, Brian Michael Chickens understands how the Internet intersects 2:37:07.320 --> 2:37:11.080 with extremism because he's he's doing this from a very 2:37:11.240 --> 2:37:14.080 like like he's he's acting like we're still in the 2:37:14.200 --> 2:37:18.520 seventies and he like like that's not how the world works, 2:37:18.560 --> 2:37:20.800 and how like people spend their time. No, people aren't 2:37:20.840 --> 2:37:24.000 doing bowling leagues, but yeah, whoman young men are spending 2:37:24.200 --> 2:37:27.119 and and you know middle aged men are spending time online, 2:37:27.360 --> 2:37:30.520 whether that be discord in a terrorist group chat, or 2:37:30.600 --> 2:37:33.160 that be a Facebook group that's for a militia, and 2:37:33.600 --> 2:37:36.800 that's where that socialization is happening. And because the Internet 2:37:36.879 --> 2:37:40.360 rewards extremism and the hottest take, it's moving in that 2:37:40.480 --> 2:37:44.840 direction even with people who would ordinarily just have historically 2:37:44.959 --> 2:37:48.480 the past joined bowling leagues. I guess, but it very 2:37:48.600 --> 2:37:52.280 it's it's correlation doesn't equal causation. Ship it's wow, less 2:37:52.320 --> 2:37:55.160 people are in bowling leagues and going to church and 2:37:55.280 --> 2:38:00.360 militias have grown wildly, wildly, Um, this one must cause 2:38:00.440 --> 2:38:02.680 the other. And it's like, well, no, they're both both 2:38:02.760 --> 2:38:05.760 of those things may have some causes in common. There 2:38:05.800 --> 2:38:09.080 may be similar factors that are driving both of those things, 2:38:09.760 --> 2:38:12.920 but they are not caused like that, they don't necessary 2:38:12.959 --> 2:38:17.240 one doesn't necessarily cause the other. UM. And if you like, again, 2:38:17.440 --> 2:38:19.560 the smart person version of this would be to say, hey, 2:38:20.040 --> 2:38:22.360 people are doing less things together out in the world. 2:38:22.400 --> 2:38:24.960 People are reporting because you can find statistic backup for this. 2:38:25.040 --> 2:38:27.760 People seem to be lonelier than ever. UM. People are 2:38:27.840 --> 2:38:30.959 more depressed than ever. Suicide rates have risen, and while 2:38:31.000 --> 2:38:34.600 this is happening, militias and extremist groups have grown. Perhaps 2:38:34.640 --> 2:38:38.640 there's something about these organizations UM that makes them particularly 2:38:38.760 --> 2:38:41.760 attractive when folks are vulnerable due to these things, and like, 2:38:42.240 --> 2:38:44.879 let's look at you know, the failure of our political 2:38:44.920 --> 2:38:48.360 system to confront these issues further feeds into the desire 2:38:48.480 --> 2:38:50.600 amongst some chunk of the populace for some sort of 2:38:50.720 --> 2:38:55.920 nihilistic cleansing violence. And again, pieces of all the pieces 2:38:55.959 --> 2:38:59.360 of this article could be could be reassembled into something 2:38:59.640 --> 2:39:02.560 with um some insight, but I I don't think Brian 2:39:02.600 --> 2:39:05.720 Michael Jenkins has much. I think it's also an interesting 2:39:05.760 --> 2:39:09.080 thing to note here about because so the last thing 2:39:09.120 --> 2:39:10.879 he talks about this oh is the thing that formed 2:39:10.920 --> 2:39:14.680 the common sort of national identity was shared universal military service. 2:39:14.720 --> 2:39:19.800 And it's like, okay, the reason shared universal military service 2:39:19.879 --> 2:39:23.039 went away was that everyone kept murdering literally just blowing 2:39:23.080 --> 2:39:26.600 their officers up in Vietnam like that. And you know, 2:39:26.640 --> 2:39:28.240 if if you want to talk about I think like 2:39:28.280 --> 2:39:31.880 incredibly high levels of political polarization and like mass violence 2:39:31.879 --> 2:39:35.520 between Americans, I mean, the army basically fighting a civil 2:39:35.560 --> 2:39:39.040 war against itself in Vietnam is you know, in an 2:39:39.160 --> 2:39:42.360 enormously important part of this. And then simultaneously the sort 2:39:42.400 --> 2:39:46.000 of right wing vets returning home and you know, going 2:39:46.080 --> 2:39:50.320 Louis Beam and stuff like that that you know, he's 2:39:50.360 --> 2:39:54.320 relying on this kind of mythos of this. So there 2:39:54.440 --> 2:39:56.600 was a time when you know, it's it's it's basically 2:39:56.640 --> 2:39:58.760 made it make America great again. But sort of like, yeah, 2:39:58.800 --> 2:40:01.560 that's that's a liberal. This this type of rhetoric is 2:40:01.560 --> 2:40:05.279 actually very similar to like the return return to tradition stuff, 2:40:05.280 --> 2:40:08.040 being like the solution to our extremism need to be 2:40:08.120 --> 2:40:11.519 going to church church again, being part of civil organizations, 2:40:11.879 --> 2:40:15.440 joining bowling leagues, and conscript conscripted military service. That's like 2:40:16.080 --> 2:40:19.600 that is that that is just the same that that 2:40:19.760 --> 2:40:22.080 is very similar to like the make American grade again, 2:40:22.160 --> 2:40:25.040 return to tradition sect because those are those are also 2:40:25.240 --> 2:40:28.039 their goals, except that they're just willing to use violence 2:40:28.080 --> 2:40:31.000 to achieve those goals, whereas this guy just wants people 2:40:31.040 --> 2:40:34.120 to start doing that again. I guess, um, I don't know. Yeah, 2:40:34.160 --> 2:40:37.800 Like in terms of like military service not leading to extremism, 2:40:38.080 --> 2:40:40.920 I mean, like Oklahoma City bombing, I don't, I don't, 2:40:40.920 --> 2:40:43.200 I don't really there is other stuff going on there, 2:40:43.240 --> 2:40:45.160 But like in terms of terms of that being like 2:40:45.400 --> 2:40:47.520 an example, it is, it is very silly because a 2:40:47.560 --> 2:40:51.080 lot of a lot of a lot of the guys 2:40:51.160 --> 2:40:53.600 even inside you know, are are current like three per 2:40:53.600 --> 2:40:57.000 centers and stuff. A lot of them have former military service. 2:41:00.400 --> 2:41:03.560 That I mean. But like, yeah, citizen Militia's in terms 2:41:03.600 --> 2:41:07.360 of gaining popularity, but specifically due to um kind of 2:41:07.440 --> 2:41:10.160 overall distrust of the federal government and the type of 2:41:10.200 --> 2:41:16.959 socialization that being online too much results in, has yes, 2:41:17.080 --> 2:41:21.320 grown grown grown the militia movement a lot um and 2:41:22.560 --> 2:41:25.440 and I just don't see how Bowling is going to 2:41:25.520 --> 2:41:29.440 solve that issue in terms of in terms of how 2:41:29.520 --> 2:41:32.920 do we mean to trust the federal government solve that issue, Garrison. 2:41:33.000 --> 2:41:35.480 But but you've never watched The Big Lebowski, so you 2:41:35.520 --> 2:41:39.080 wouldn't you wouldn't understand. I've not watched The Big Lebowski, 2:41:39.360 --> 2:41:41.320 So I'm kind of I'm kind of I'm kind of 2:41:41.400 --> 2:41:46.000 done with the kind of done with the NBC piece there. 2:41:46.080 --> 2:41:48.760 I know there was there was something Brian Michael Jenkins. 2:41:51.040 --> 2:41:54.600 The other thing on on the Brookings thing that I 2:41:54.640 --> 2:41:58.440 have a decent issue with is that they're one of 2:41:58.480 --> 2:42:00.520 the reasons they give for and and this is actually 2:42:00.520 --> 2:42:02.360 something that Brian Michael Junkins also brings up with the 2:42:02.440 --> 2:42:04.600 NBC piece, is that one of the reasons why they 2:42:04.640 --> 2:42:07.280 believe the civil war is not as inevitable is because 2:42:07.320 --> 2:42:11.480 there is no clear regional split like a North South divide, 2:42:11.959 --> 2:42:14.440 and they, for some reason think this means that there 2:42:14.520 --> 2:42:18.360 is less likely to be civil conflict. Um. They they 2:42:18.480 --> 2:42:21.920 recognized there is an urban rule divide in most states, 2:42:22.280 --> 2:42:25.600 but because there is no large, kind of obvious North 2:42:25.680 --> 2:42:27.600 South divide, they think this is going to make a 2:42:27.640 --> 2:42:30.400 civil war less likely. Well, the map would really be 2:42:30.520 --> 2:42:33.320 a pain in the ass, so it probably won't happen, right, Like, 2:42:33.400 --> 2:42:35.800 That's that's the thing they're thinking, is like, oh, if 2:42:35.840 --> 2:42:37.959 I was gonna if I have to map this out, 2:42:38.040 --> 2:42:40.480 it's gonna be too complicated. When I read that, I 2:42:40.600 --> 2:42:43.560 had flashbacks to my first trip to a war zone 2:42:43.600 --> 2:42:46.680 in Ukraine, where we were like taking Google Maps up 2:42:46.680 --> 2:42:48.600 to a certain point and then we had to use 2:42:48.800 --> 2:42:51.120 like hand drawn notes because he was like, well the 2:42:51.520 --> 2:42:54.480 different like the different chunks of this air next like 2:42:54.560 --> 2:42:57.480 twenty acres that are owned by the separatists as opposed 2:42:57.480 --> 2:42:59.920 to the government, or like, you can't use Google it'll 2:43:00.040 --> 2:43:03.800 send you into enemy territories because it's not a clean 2:43:03.879 --> 2:43:07.120 break because you had literally suburbs of cities fighting each 2:43:07.160 --> 2:43:10.520 other and you still do. Yeah, this is a this 2:43:10.680 --> 2:43:12.440 is you know, I think personally, this this this is 2:43:12.720 --> 2:43:15.120 a sort of peak American brain thing because you know, 2:43:15.400 --> 2:43:17.800 there's there's been like five ever civil wars that are 2:43:17.879 --> 2:43:20.279 broken like this, and the problem is that there's American 2:43:20.280 --> 2:43:23.040 civil war and then we also fought in both Vietnam 2:43:23.080 --> 2:43:26.160 and North Korea, but like, well, yeah, yeah, but we 2:43:26.240 --> 2:43:29.520 just really civil war. Yeah yeah, yeah, that's that's there 2:43:29.680 --> 2:43:32.080 was fighting between two halves of the country that it 2:43:32.200 --> 2:43:34.920 was a proxy for two others. Several other kind of yeah, 2:43:34.959 --> 2:43:37.720 and that's yeah, and that's and that's the thing that like, 2:43:38.520 --> 2:43:42.640 it's the combination of the American Civil War was very 2:43:42.800 --> 2:43:47.120 unique civil war and then the other major things that 2:43:47.240 --> 2:43:49.640 we think of as like quote unquote civil wars were 2:43:49.760 --> 2:43:51.760 you know, we're basically cold war stuff, and I mean, 2:43:51.840 --> 2:43:53.760 you know, like that, there there are a couple other 2:43:54.040 --> 2:43:57.200 like yeah, I mean there have been other examples of 2:43:57.240 --> 2:43:59.200 like secessionist stuff like that, as like I mean, in 2:43:59.280 --> 2:44:02.279 in in any civil there's a lot of other countries 2:44:02.360 --> 2:44:04.320 that get involved. In the US Civil War, there was 2:44:04.360 --> 2:44:07.440 a significant amount of that sort of and even even 2:44:07.720 --> 2:44:10.200 even even in the US Civil War, like there are 2:44:10.320 --> 2:44:13.400 just like towns in the middle of like Confederate Territory 2:44:13.440 --> 2:44:15.600 they're like, no, funk this, we're not going over. But 2:44:15.760 --> 2:44:19.400 everyone but people have this just like incredibly myopic view 2:44:19.440 --> 2:44:21.080 of what a civil war is. And it's like every 2:44:21.160 --> 2:44:23.520 other civil war that's been fought in the last like 2:44:23.680 --> 2:44:29.480 fifty years has been just seven thousand factions like neighborhood 2:44:29.560 --> 2:44:33.680 fighting each other. I don't know, it's just incredibly frustrating 2:44:33.800 --> 2:44:36.800 to watch these people not understand this. It's very America 2:44:36.879 --> 2:44:40.959 brained and it's very sad because I'm going to read 2:44:40.959 --> 2:44:43.560 a quote that's gonna make us want to purge our ears. 2:44:44.320 --> 2:44:47.840 There are urban rule differences within specific states, with progressives 2:44:47.879 --> 2:44:51.160 dominating the city as while conservatives reside in rural communities, 2:44:51.440 --> 2:44:54.120 but that is a far different geographic divide than when 2:44:54.200 --> 2:44:56.920 one region could wage war on another. The lack of 2:44:57.000 --> 2:45:01.160 a distinctive or uniform geographic division limits the ability to 2:45:01.280 --> 2:45:04.920 confront other areas organized supply chains and mobilize the population. 2:45:05.160 --> 2:45:07.600 There can be local skirmaches between different forces, but not 2:45:07.680 --> 2:45:11.560 a situation where one state or region attacks another, which 2:45:11.840 --> 2:45:16.000 is complete nonsense. And that's not how like it's like 2:45:16.120 --> 2:45:19.960 they don't understand that guerrilla fighting exists, and they don't 2:45:20.000 --> 2:45:23.920 understand how the whole, the whole, the whole part about 2:45:24.520 --> 2:45:27.160 organizing supply chains and mobilized population like that is just 2:45:27.320 --> 2:45:30.960 another way to fight a war is by exploiting that 2:45:31.280 --> 2:45:35.119 specific thing like the fact that cities are so isolated 2:45:35.600 --> 2:45:39.040 um and lack and and and lack of home wage resources, 2:45:39.120 --> 2:45:41.280 and the fact that rural areas are isolated in a 2:45:41.320 --> 2:45:43.880 different way and lack separate resources. That is not something 2:45:43.959 --> 2:45:46.480 that makes a civil war less likely. That just makes 2:45:46.520 --> 2:45:50.960 it more complicated and makes it more fighting over Amazon 2:45:51.320 --> 2:45:54.200 fulfillment centers and the like. Yeah, like it's it's the 2:45:54.640 --> 2:45:59.520 it is it is ridiculous, um saying that, Yeah, saying 2:45:59.560 --> 2:46:02.880 that the uh that that it's it's far different from 2:46:02.920 --> 2:46:05.640 a geographic divide that one reacher could wage one another. 2:46:05.760 --> 2:46:08.160 Is like that. No that you're you're just saying something 2:46:08.240 --> 2:46:11.440 that is just completely wrong and like you have not 2:46:11.600 --> 2:46:16.440 studied any type of like urban conflict whatsoever. Yeah, And 2:46:16.720 --> 2:46:18.560 I think there's important thing in here, which is that 2:46:18.920 --> 2:46:24.560 regions mostly it's not that region's wage warning. Yeah, it's 2:46:24.560 --> 2:46:29.280 not people don't do the fighting. Yeah, Like regions aren't 2:46:29.320 --> 2:46:32.080 the things that are fighting. It's the people in areas 2:46:32.120 --> 2:46:34.400 and people can move around and people can block off 2:46:34.440 --> 2:46:37.280 access to areas, and like it's it's this, it's a 2:46:37.400 --> 2:46:40.240 weird it's a it's super weird way to think about things. 2:46:40.400 --> 2:46:43.000 And it's the fact that if if this is something 2:46:43.200 --> 2:46:47.040 that like the Brooking Institution, um is, if this is 2:46:47.120 --> 2:46:50.119 what they think on this topic, that's pretty sad indicator 2:46:50.160 --> 2:46:52.880 for what a lot of people how they how like 2:46:52.920 --> 2:46:54.720 a lot of mainstream levels are going to view the 2:46:54.760 --> 2:46:57.440 possibility of any type of civil conflict. And I don't know, 2:46:57.600 --> 2:47:01.800 maybe they feel very secure in their cities um, which 2:47:01.879 --> 2:47:03.920 which is a weird thing. I've I've not felt that 2:47:04.040 --> 2:47:06.440 in years. Yeah. And I think the other thing that's 2:47:06.560 --> 2:47:08.800 very weird about this is that because so a lot 2:47:08.840 --> 2:47:11.520 of people writing about this are x are um like 2:47:11.640 --> 2:47:14.440 kind are like kind of terrorism people, right, and the 2:47:14.520 --> 2:47:16.800 kind of terrorism kind of insurgence people. It's weird because 2:47:16.840 --> 2:47:19.440 they used to understand this, like, you know, like a 2:47:19.520 --> 2:47:21.680 lot of like you know, because like in in you know, 2:47:21.760 --> 2:47:23.880 in in the twentieth century and in even sort of 2:47:23.920 --> 2:47:27.360 the early century, like the the sort of the sort 2:47:27.400 --> 2:47:31.560 of standard like grilling insurgency doctrine was you know, it's 2:47:31.600 --> 2:47:37.120 some some some some variation on the like maoists fish 2:47:37.160 --> 2:47:40.280 in the sea, like surround the cities where we're like 2:47:40.320 --> 2:47:43.000 real areas, etcetera, etcet etcetera, and like and you you 2:47:43.120 --> 2:47:46.000 even see versions of this, you know, in things that 2:47:46.080 --> 2:47:48.400 are quite civil wars but are kind of like what 2:47:48.560 --> 2:47:51.640 happened like the water and gas wars and Oblivi and 2:47:51.680 --> 2:47:55.040 the the two thousands were like you know what, what what? Yeah, 2:47:55.280 --> 2:47:57.320 you have kind of an urban real divide without they 2:47:57.320 --> 2:47:59.480 have allies in the cities, but the sort of you know, 2:47:59.800 --> 2:48:02.720 like that the you have a bunch of rural indigenous 2:48:02.720 --> 2:48:05.760 groups that literally just you know, they blockade every road 2:48:05.800 --> 2:48:08.040 in the country and then start of the cities out right. 2:48:08.040 --> 2:48:09.200 I mean, this is this, this is this is just 2:48:09.280 --> 2:48:14.120 a thing that happened in It's just like yeah, that 2:48:14.280 --> 2:48:16.560 is like, yeah, that is that. That is going to 2:48:16.720 --> 2:48:19.920 happen sooner than later, whether that be caused by accident, 2:48:20.000 --> 2:48:22.720 by some type of climate natural disaster, or on purpose 2:48:22.800 --> 2:48:25.680 by a militia like that. It's just a matter of 2:48:25.760 --> 2:48:30.000 time until we have to deal with this massive problem. Yeah. Um. 2:48:30.400 --> 2:48:34.080 And it's like I've been reading recently about um Uruguay 2:48:34.160 --> 2:48:36.080 and what happened with them, and like the seventies when 2:48:36.080 --> 2:48:40.119 their dictatorship took over and they had a left wing 2:48:40.200 --> 2:48:42.480 group that was like very much engaged in kind of 2:48:42.640 --> 2:48:45.120 a lot of acts of poetic terrorism, like you know, 2:48:45.520 --> 2:48:48.080 robbing banks to steal paperwork that they would then hand 2:48:48.160 --> 2:48:51.600 over to like somebody to reveal malfeasance within a company, 2:48:51.760 --> 2:48:55.200 or like stealing trucks of food going to like some 2:48:55.400 --> 2:48:58.840 big wealthy Christmas party and redistributing it in poor neighborhoods. 2:48:58.879 --> 2:49:01.360 Pretty rad stuff, and one of the ways in which 2:49:01.720 --> 2:49:05.640 the new incoming dictatorial regime cracked down to them as 2:49:05.640 --> 2:49:10.040 they deputized like ten thousand chuds and gave them guns 2:49:10.200 --> 2:49:12.680 and sent them in with the army. Um. And I 2:49:12.760 --> 2:49:16.280 was like, yeah, I could absolutely see could that happen? Yeah, 2:49:16.320 --> 2:49:18.720 Like if there was some sort of uprising in a 2:49:19.000 --> 2:49:22.920 in a liberal city, there's rual areas around them filled 2:49:23.000 --> 2:49:26.640 with chuds there, and there is precedent, There is precedent 2:49:26.720 --> 2:49:30.400 for police doing that. Um, they have done it within 2:49:30.640 --> 2:49:35.440 your r I shot garrison like on small scales. So 2:49:36.040 --> 2:49:37.960 I think we'll have one more break and come back 2:49:38.040 --> 2:49:42.160 and talk about a talk about a hedge fund. Oh 2:49:42.320 --> 2:49:44.320 funk I love hedge funds. Let me get Let me 2:49:44.400 --> 2:49:46.720 get my hedge funds. Shared out the shirt that I 2:49:46.800 --> 2:49:50.320 wear when talking about hedge funds. All right, I have 2:49:50.480 --> 2:49:54.360 my hedge fund shirt on UM. As you can all see, 2:49:54.600 --> 2:49:59.120 it's a picture of Ringo star filating himself. I don't 2:49:59.160 --> 2:50:03.000 know why that's my head fun shirt. I don't know either, 2:50:03.120 --> 2:50:06.320 but I love the beach Boys. Um. Anyway, so thank 2:50:06.400 --> 2:50:10.879 you perfect nailed it. Uh. We should we talk about 2:50:10.959 --> 2:50:12.960 this hedge fund guy? Yes, I do want to talk 2:50:13.000 --> 2:50:17.120 with this hedge fund guy, because this is when something 2:50:17.200 --> 2:50:20.360 with this much money is talking about this one just 2:50:20.600 --> 2:50:23.880 for fun, right, he's doing this just for ship funds. Yeah, 2:50:23.959 --> 2:50:26.280 he's doing it for ships and giggles. And he wrote 2:50:26.320 --> 2:50:29.199 a book kind of on this topic and he proposed 2:50:29.480 --> 2:50:33.800 one one solution. He came up with one thing that 2:50:33.879 --> 2:50:37.160 will prevent us from entering a civil war. Um, which 2:50:37.200 --> 2:50:41.400 shows how smart these hedge fund people are. Um. But first, uh, 2:50:41.920 --> 2:50:44.440 I Chris would love to I would love for you 2:50:44.600 --> 2:50:48.160 to explain who who this? Who this dude is? Okay, 2:50:48.240 --> 2:50:52.960 So Rae Dao is a hedge fund manager and he 2:50:53.360 --> 2:50:58.680 is so he runs Bridge Bridge Water Social allegedly the 2:50:58.760 --> 2:51:03.240 world's largest hedge fund firm. Yeah, and it depends how 2:51:03.280 --> 2:51:05.800 you de find everything. But yeah, it's a very large fund. 2:51:06.640 --> 2:51:09.400 And this guy, this guy is weird by like venture 2:51:09.400 --> 2:51:12.560 capital standards. So the Bridgewaters whole thing is that everyone 2:51:12.640 --> 2:51:15.080 in the company is constantly surveiled at all times, and 2:51:15.080 --> 2:51:16.879 anyone else when the company could look at when anyone 2:51:17.040 --> 2:51:18.840 else is doing. It's supposed to be like it was 2:51:18.840 --> 2:51:20.720 like total transparency, and what what it actually means again, 2:51:20.720 --> 2:51:22.640 is it like you can you can look at like 2:51:23.200 --> 2:51:26.720 fucking what any of your colleagues, like also working at 2:51:26.760 --> 2:51:29.080 this place, is doing just sucking at their day job. 2:51:29.120 --> 2:51:30.480 You can see all their records, you can see everything 2:51:30.480 --> 2:51:33.400 they're looking at. And the other thing that he's known 2:51:33.520 --> 2:51:35.920 for is that he doesn't trust anyone else to like 2:51:36.040 --> 2:51:37.800 run the hedge fund after he retires. Your dies, So 2:51:37.879 --> 2:51:40.280 he's trying to build like like a cybernetic version of 2:51:40.360 --> 2:51:43.080 his brain to keep running the hedge funds. The like 2:51:43.320 --> 2:51:46.600 other hedge fund weirdos think this guy is fucking wild. 2:51:47.120 --> 2:51:50.080 And yeah, he's he's a time and he runs one 2:51:50.080 --> 2:51:52.080 of the worlds or just has funds. It's great, it's 2:51:52.720 --> 2:51:55.520 we it's it's amazing and good we give there's people 2:51:55.600 --> 2:51:58.280 this much money to control. So I will say, when 2:51:58.360 --> 2:52:01.520 it comes to his actual analysis of like whether or 2:52:01.560 --> 2:52:05.760 not it's likely, I don't particularly disagree with anything. Yes, 2:52:07.360 --> 2:52:13.080 it's it's broadly reasonable. Yeah, his looking Yeah for what, 2:52:13.240 --> 2:52:14.920 he's just doing this because because he thinks it's fun. 2:52:15.000 --> 2:52:18.120 He has enough money he's gonna survive whatever. Um. But yeah, 2:52:18.280 --> 2:52:20.959 he's also I mean, part of why this is fairly 2:52:21.080 --> 2:52:23.240 credible is he's I mean, if you're if you're good 2:52:23.280 --> 2:52:25.760 at this, it means that you have one actual talent, 2:52:25.840 --> 2:52:29.039 which is is judging risk. Um, and I think he's 2:52:29.040 --> 2:52:31.640 probably pretty good at judging risk. Yeah. So he he 2:52:31.840 --> 2:52:33.680 he said that he believes there's like a high likely 2:52:33.800 --> 2:52:36.520 could that a civil war or something resembling it will 2:52:36.560 --> 2:52:40.800 break out within the decade. Um is the number he gives. 2:52:40.879 --> 2:52:44.440 He's the number he gives and then he, um, yeah, wait, 2:52:44.560 --> 2:52:48.000 let's see. Yeah he said there's also he have a 2:52:48.080 --> 2:52:50.280 quality says it's a we're we're in a we're in 2:52:50.400 --> 2:52:54.840 a high risk position right now. Um. And yeah. He 2:52:55.360 --> 2:52:57.840 talks about the different kind of reasons why he believes 2:52:57.879 --> 2:53:01.039 so in this book, most of which are like pretty reasonable, 2:53:01.680 --> 2:53:04.320 um in terms of like uh, in terms of like 2:53:04.400 --> 2:53:08.360 looking at a population and how much how like you know, 2:53:08.520 --> 2:53:13.680 the various like polarization between politics and culture and all 2:53:13.760 --> 2:53:18.600 this kind of stuff. Um. But the solution that he 2:53:18.760 --> 2:53:22.840 gives to this is that, um, we should make a 2:53:23.000 --> 2:53:27.160 formal judgment for quote unquote close elections and have the 2:53:27.240 --> 2:53:30.880 losers respect the outcomes, and then once that happens, the 2:53:31.160 --> 2:53:34.280 order is going to be like restored and respected, and 2:53:34.320 --> 2:53:37.040 then we will avert a civil war. So he he 2:53:37.240 --> 2:53:40.920 thinks that a civil will will probably be like enacted 2:53:41.040 --> 2:53:43.800 by some type of election dispute, which that is actually 2:53:43.920 --> 2:53:47.600 very reasonable in terms of what happened in our last election. 2:53:47.680 --> 2:53:49.560 If there's like a big if there's a big election dispute, 2:53:49.640 --> 2:53:51.960 that could absolutely spark some type of conflict. But the 2:53:52.080 --> 2:53:55.360 idea that we can avert a civil war by just 2:53:55.600 --> 2:54:00.080 having an organization to judge close elections is like, but 2:54:00.520 --> 2:54:04.040 that's not gonna solve, Like, that's not gonna if you 2:54:04.160 --> 2:54:06.720 do that, that's not gonna solve the close election problem. 2:54:06.800 --> 2:54:09.360 That doesn't even if you do it, that won't be 2:54:09.480 --> 2:54:13.119 a solution, you know, And I I will say, like, yeah, 2:54:13.200 --> 2:54:17.560 lexcuse some saying credit credit where minor credit is due. 2:54:18.360 --> 2:54:23.960 Radalio is in fact right that the difference between two thousands, 2:54:24.120 --> 2:54:26.560 which is when the last time someone actually literally stole 2:54:26.600 --> 2:54:31.280 an election happened, where yeah, but Bush Bush openly rigs 2:54:31.320 --> 2:54:35.280 the election. It's incredibly obvious, like there's like six ways 2:54:35.320 --> 2:54:37.680 he does this. Everyone knows it's happening. And the reaction 2:54:37.760 --> 2:54:39.440 is everyone just kind of shrugs because they're like, oh, 2:54:39.520 --> 2:54:45.720 this dream courts legitimate compared to both, which yeah, that 2:54:45.920 --> 2:54:49.120 that's you know, that's that's that's there there's been an 2:54:49.160 --> 2:54:53.000 actual break there. It's just that I don't know, Maybe 2:54:53.120 --> 2:54:54.920 I think it's it's almost just like a lip brained 2:54:55.000 --> 2:54:56.600 thing where it's like you think that if if you 2:54:56.640 --> 2:55:00.720 have an institution that sets down rules this, this will 2:55:00.760 --> 2:55:03.080 make everything okay because everyone will obey it. And that's 2:55:03.120 --> 2:55:05.440 just not where we are anymore. Yeah, I mean, there 2:55:05.560 --> 2:55:07.920 was just a poll that came out recently. It should 2:55:07.959 --> 2:55:10.760 like Americans trust in the military has fallen to its 2:55:10.840 --> 2:55:13.360 lowest level ever registered, and like that was kind of 2:55:13.520 --> 2:55:17.280 the one thing left that most people felt positively about. 2:55:17.920 --> 2:55:19.600 Not to say that that's even a good thing, but 2:55:19.720 --> 2:55:23.680 just like the there is such a complete fucking lack 2:55:23.879 --> 2:55:27.840 of faith in institutions across the spectrum in the United States. 2:55:28.240 --> 2:55:31.600 But it's like, how unless you're hiring I don't know, 2:55:31.920 --> 2:55:35.240 um fucking no. I would say Tom Hanks, but Tom 2:55:35.320 --> 2:55:38.840 Hanks has even gotten politicized even because believes in viruses. 2:55:39.120 --> 2:55:41.560 So yeah, there's no one they could pick to get 2:55:41.680 --> 2:55:44.440 do this job that people would feel good about if 2:55:44.520 --> 2:55:46.880 they Yeah, I mean, I'm sure if they brought Mr 2:55:47.040 --> 2:55:49.080 Rodgers back from the dead, half the country would call 2:55:49.200 --> 2:55:51.960 him a cuck. So I don't I don't know what what, 2:55:52.360 --> 2:55:54.600 I don't know who Dahio thinks is going to like 2:55:55.040 --> 2:56:02.800 get everybody on board. So maybe maybe maybe um Danny DeVito, 2:56:03.520 --> 2:56:06.680 Danny DeVito might be able to do it. Well. I 2:56:06.840 --> 2:56:08.720 think if if we put all of our hope in 2:56:08.800 --> 2:56:12.280 Danny DeVito, that is a better solution than what any 2:56:12.360 --> 2:56:16.800 of these articles and the court. It beats it beats 2:56:16.840 --> 2:56:22.039 every other quote solution the articles posited. I mean Odin 2:56:22.120 --> 2:56:25.840 Kirk brought Twitter together that one week. Maybe, yeah, you know, 2:56:26.000 --> 2:56:28.280 with with this practice in court, if you just picked 2:56:28.480 --> 2:56:31.720 twelve random people off the street and we're like you, 2:56:34.520 --> 2:56:36.080 that's that's the thing. It's like, I am, I am 2:56:36.160 --> 2:56:40.440 all for It's the term isn't the term isn't a democracy. Um, 2:56:40.600 --> 2:56:45.000 it's it's I forget the other yes of of almost 2:56:45.040 --> 2:56:47.080 I forget exactly, but it's it's when a government is 2:56:47.160 --> 2:56:50.080 not composed of elected leaders, composed of a random selected 2:56:50.560 --> 2:56:53.800 a random selection of people, and the decisions and then 2:56:53.840 --> 2:56:56.039 the decisions over then we then we get a new selection. 2:56:56.240 --> 2:56:59.800 I'm all for that model of government over almost any other. 2:57:00.160 --> 2:57:03.160 It sounds way better than what we have. Yeah. Yeah, 2:57:03.480 --> 2:57:06.000 So that that is, that is the three pieces I 2:57:06.040 --> 2:57:09.120 want to talk about the independent piece on the Hedge Fund, 2:57:09.400 --> 2:57:13.119 Brooking Institution on the Civil War. And then uh, Brian wentno, 2:57:13.280 --> 2:57:18.160 not not Brian, yes, um Brian Michael Jenkins Um, senior 2:57:18.200 --> 2:57:24.840 advisor to the president of RAND Who who who wrote who? 2:57:24.879 --> 2:57:27.960 Who wrote the thing for NBC. So yeah, that is 2:57:28.000 --> 2:57:30.240 just the terms of in terms of you know, people 2:57:30.440 --> 2:57:34.279 in institutions talking about the topic more generally and sometimes 2:57:34.640 --> 2:57:38.320 decent ways, oftentimes not decent ways. That is, that is 2:57:38.400 --> 2:57:41.400 the stuff from like the just the past between the 2:57:41.480 --> 2:57:46.199 past week two months of people with big salaries talking 2:57:46.280 --> 2:57:49.680 about the Civil War yea, or in terms of the 2:57:49.879 --> 2:57:52.240 in terms of the Hedge Fund guy, not a salary, 2:57:52.320 --> 2:57:55.000 just billions of dollars, Yeah, just billions of dollars and 2:57:55.840 --> 2:57:59.560 thinking it's neat. Um. I don't know. You know, every 2:57:59.600 --> 2:58:01.560 time one these comes out, I get tagged by a 2:58:01.600 --> 2:58:05.280 bunch of people, um saying like, Robbert is the thing 2:58:05.400 --> 2:58:08.040 you were talking about? Other people are talking about it, 2:58:08.760 --> 2:58:12.880 and um, I don't know, I don't like that this 2:58:13.080 --> 2:58:14.840 is the thing other people are talking about that I've 2:58:14.879 --> 2:58:18.560 been talking about as opposed to mass Zeppelin, transit or 2:58:18.680 --> 2:58:22.520 something more fun. Yeah, these people could dedicate the resources 2:58:22.520 --> 2:58:26.640 into something more manageable for them, and because they don't 2:58:26.680 --> 2:58:29.840 have a good grasp, especially that Brian Michael guys has 2:58:29.879 --> 2:58:33.760 no grasp on how extremism works. Um, and it would 2:58:33.800 --> 2:58:36.039 be better if they dedicate the resources to something else. 2:58:36.120 --> 2:58:38.520 But this is the world we live in. It would 2:58:38.560 --> 2:58:42.440 be better if perhaps Brian Michael Jenkins dedicated his his 2:58:42.879 --> 2:58:45.480 efforts and his platform at NBC to looking into Mr 2:58:45.600 --> 2:58:48.039 Dario and whatever the funk he's been up to. Um, 2:58:48.840 --> 2:58:52.640 that might that might do more. Very man, he just 2:58:52.720 --> 2:58:55.600 get plan them on. He would absolutely Brian Michael Jenkins 2:58:55.640 --> 2:58:59.720 would get PanAm on so fucking quick. Al Right, Well, 2:58:59.760 --> 2:59:04.680 the hannimnious motherfucker in journalism just just like not even 2:59:04.920 --> 2:59:09.560 not even downtime before that car gets bombed as he's 2:59:09.640 --> 2:59:16.040 talking on air. The Okay, Brian Michael Jakins is seventy 2:59:16.200 --> 2:59:19.720 nine years old, so it won't it wouldn't be hard. 2:59:20.680 --> 2:59:25.039 H I just that that that's like a ten minute job. 2:59:25.720 --> 2:59:28.240 I'm just I'm just thinking like Brian Michael Jakins, he's 2:59:28.280 --> 2:59:31.000 a quote unquote an American expert on terrorism and transportation 2:59:31.040 --> 2:59:33.640 security with four neckets of analysis. This is why he 2:59:33.680 --> 2:59:36.760 doesn't understand modern extremism. It's because yeah, he's still thinking 2:59:36.879 --> 2:59:40.520 in the seventies mode. That's sure. I'm sure of his 2:59:40.640 --> 2:59:44.640 thoughts on terrorism are just him rehashing opinions about like 2:59:44.959 --> 2:59:47.440 Hezbollah in the eighties. Yeah, all of all of his 2:59:47.480 --> 2:59:51.920 stuff is superdated. So that's that's why I said that previously, 2:59:51.959 --> 2:59:53.960 is that he still views terrorism as like as it 2:59:54.040 --> 2:59:55.720 was in the seventies. And yeah, this is this is why. 2:59:56.160 --> 3:00:00.760 Um So that's great, guy, that's that's him. Um, anyway, 3:00:00.959 --> 3:00:05.160 that wraps up our show. Um, yeah, watch out for 3:00:05.920 --> 3:00:08.280 the one. The one Brian Michael Jenkins prediction I do 3:00:08.360 --> 3:00:10.600 think will happen is that there's a decent chance we 3:00:10.680 --> 3:00:13.560 might be back in an assassination territory, because it is, 3:00:13.560 --> 3:00:15.480 but it has been a long time since that has happened. 3:00:16.320 --> 3:00:20.560 It's it has been a hot minute and definitely leagues 3:00:20.800 --> 3:00:24.440 when it keeps happening in the UK. Yeah, I was 3:00:24.480 --> 3:00:27.640 meaning specifically in in in America and yeah, that's what 3:00:27.680 --> 3:00:31.360 I'm saying. We're we're not that far away from them 3:00:31.400 --> 3:00:34.360 in terms of like things happening, so that I'm kind 3:00:34.400 --> 3:00:36.720 of surprised it hasn't had. I think it's probably just 3:00:36.840 --> 3:00:41.760 because maybe American legislators are all much more concerned about 3:00:41.760 --> 3:00:46.160 assassination because guns, so people like our elected leaders take 3:00:46.160 --> 3:00:48.640 more precautions than British ones. Did. I don't know. Maybe 3:00:49.400 --> 3:00:52.960 I don't know either. Well, speaking of assassinations, you can 3:00:53.120 --> 3:00:55.880 follow us on Twitter and Instagram. That happened here particles 3:00:55.959 --> 3:00:59.520 on media. If we go missing it was great. If 3:00:59.560 --> 3:01:11.880 we go think it was Radaldio co Hi. Everybody, This 3:01:12.080 --> 3:01:15.200 is Roxanne Gay, host of The Roxanne Gay Agenda, The 3:01:15.280 --> 3:01:19.240 Bad Rominast podcast of Your Dreams. Now, what is the 3:01:19.400 --> 3:01:23.080 Roxanne Gay Agenda, you might ask. It's a podcast where 3:01:23.240 --> 3:01:26.240 I'm going to speak my mind about what's on my mind, 3:01:26.360 --> 3:01:29.840 and that could be anything. Every week I will be 3:01:29.920 --> 3:01:34.120 in conversation with an interesting person who has something to say. 3:01:34.240 --> 3:01:37.560 We're going to talk about feminism, race, writing in books, 3:01:37.600 --> 3:01:42.080 and art, food, pop culture, and yes, politics. I started 3:01:42.240 --> 3:01:45.800 show with a recommendation. Really, I'm just going to share 3:01:45.840 --> 3:01:48.520 with you a movie or a book, or maybe some 3:01:48.720 --> 3:01:51.440 music or a comedy set, something that I really want 3:01:51.560 --> 3:01:54.440 you to be aware of and maybe engage with as well. 3:01:55.320 --> 3:01:59.199 Listen to the Luminary original podcast The Roxanne Gay Agenda, 3:01:59.640 --> 3:02:03.480 The Bad Cominist podcast of your dream every Tuesday on 3:02:03.600 --> 3:02:07.320 the I Heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 3:02:07.440 --> 3:02:14.480 get your podcast. Here's to the great American settlers. The 3:02:14.680 --> 3:02:18.680 millions of you have settled for unsatisfying jobs because they 3:02:18.800 --> 3:02:22.080 pay the bills, and you just kind of fell into it, 3:02:22.800 --> 3:02:26.920 and you know, it's like totally fine, just another few 3:02:27.000 --> 3:02:31.240 decades or so and then you can enjoy yourself. Of course, 3:02:31.400 --> 3:02:34.200 there is something else you could do. If you've got 3:02:34.360 --> 3:02:38.040 something to say, you could, I don't know, start up 3:02:38.080 --> 3:02:42.600 podcast with Spreaker from my heart and unleash your creative 3:02:42.680 --> 3:02:46.600 freedom and spend all day researching and talking about stuff 3:02:46.680 --> 3:02:50.200 you love and maybe even earn enough money to one 3:02:50.280 --> 3:02:54.080 day tell your irritating boss as you quit and walk 3:02:54.160 --> 3:02:59.800 off into the sunset. Hey I'm no settler, I'm an explorer. 3:03:00.920 --> 3:03:06.080 Spreaker dot com. That's spr e a k E R. 3:03:07.040 --> 3:03:19.440 Hustle on over Today, Welcome to it could happen here 3:03:20.280 --> 3:03:24.119 talk podcast YEP. I could say it a podcast. That's 3:03:24.120 --> 3:03:26.440 what we're doing, and it's about it's about how things 3:03:26.520 --> 3:03:29.640 are kind of kind of kind of falling apart sometimes, 3:03:29.760 --> 3:03:31.840 or at least it feels like it, and I don't know, 3:03:31.959 --> 3:03:34.680 maybe we can do some things to help make it better, 3:03:35.080 --> 3:03:39.240 like what happened recently in terms of forests. So, hey, 3:03:39.360 --> 3:03:44.080 a good news episode. Whoa rare rare rare episode drop 3:03:44.280 --> 3:03:47.600 for us? Uh, we got some good news. So I'm 3:03:47.640 --> 3:03:50.400 gonna be talking with Sam, who was on a previous 3:03:50.440 --> 3:03:55.800 episode discussing a forest defense, about an update on on 3:03:56.040 --> 3:03:57.680 all of the things that we were talking about a 3:03:57.800 --> 3:04:00.800 few weeks ago. Um. So yeah, I think we can. 3:04:00.840 --> 3:04:02.800 We can pretty much get into it, and then then 3:04:02.800 --> 3:04:04.840 we'll talk about some other stuff around kind of forests 3:04:05.280 --> 3:04:08.960 in general. So Hello, Sam, Thank thank you for joining 3:04:09.000 --> 3:04:11.520 me again to talk about trees, one of one of 3:04:11.560 --> 3:04:17.959 our favorite topics. Hello, my pleasure always. So I think 3:04:18.360 --> 3:04:20.760 it was like a day or two after we dropped 3:04:20.800 --> 3:04:22.960 the episode or something, or I think I think it was. 3:04:23.000 --> 3:04:26.360 Actually it was maybe maybe even like right like right before, Um, 3:04:26.480 --> 3:04:30.440 we got some extra extra news about all about the 3:04:30.480 --> 3:04:36.880 post about the postfire logging um near the bright Bush Watershed. Um, yeah, 3:04:37.360 --> 3:04:41.320 what happened there? Yeah, yeah, it was pretty wild. Actually 3:04:41.640 --> 3:04:45.320 it was really serendipitous timing too. Um. We as I 3:04:45.440 --> 3:04:48.520 think we mentioned in the last podcast, we were awaiting 3:04:48.680 --> 3:04:52.840 the first hearing for the court case essentially, you know, 3:04:53.040 --> 3:04:55.320 we believed that the plan to log in that area 3:04:55.440 --> 3:05:00.200 for myriad reasons was not only unethical but also illegal. Um. 3:05:00.240 --> 3:05:02.160 And so it was going to court and we were 3:05:02.560 --> 3:05:06.960 awaiting a hearing that happened on December three, Friday, And 3:05:07.760 --> 3:05:10.040 typically the judge does not rule from the bench and 3:05:10.120 --> 3:05:12.120 these sorts of hearings, and so we did not expect 3:05:12.160 --> 3:05:15.200 the decision on that day. UM. But sure enough the 3:05:15.320 --> 3:05:18.360 judge felt uh strongly enough about this case and sure 3:05:18.440 --> 3:05:21.160 enough about her decision that she did rule from the 3:05:21.240 --> 3:05:24.920 bench and ruled in our favor. And so yeah, victories. UM. 3:05:25.080 --> 3:05:29.280 Now we have um a preliminary injunction in place, meaning 3:05:29.360 --> 3:05:32.280 that no logging can happen there um at least until 3:05:32.400 --> 3:05:35.400 this uh timber sale has its real day in court, 3:05:35.840 --> 3:05:39.240 or until the Fourth Service just drops this shenanigan entirely, 3:05:39.360 --> 3:05:43.000 which hopefully they will do, but we'll see. Yeah. So 3:05:44.200 --> 3:05:47.480 they they blocked, they blocked the posts part logging and 3:05:47.760 --> 3:05:52.000 the the the basically started start starting to clear cut 3:05:52.040 --> 3:05:54.720 these areas without without actual like public and putting, without 3:05:54.720 --> 3:05:57.600 actually going through the process as flawed as the process. 3:05:57.680 --> 3:06:00.240 Maybe they were just skipping it entirely so that that 3:06:00.480 --> 3:06:04.120 was that was that was blocked by this, by by 3:06:04.200 --> 3:06:06.920 this legal case. Um, what was I guess Yeah, what 3:06:07.000 --> 3:06:09.080 what was what was the h what? What was what? 3:06:09.400 --> 3:06:11.520 What was the reaction like in in in the room 3:06:11.600 --> 3:06:18.520 and in the various signal chats when this happened. Yeah, 3:06:18.640 --> 3:06:22.560 in the ether spheres, Um, the reaction was super awesome. 3:06:22.720 --> 3:06:26.200 I mean, so many people love this place and that 3:06:26.360 --> 3:06:28.520 was kind of the whole point of what we were 3:06:28.560 --> 3:06:31.200 trying to do when we did the direct action out 3:06:31.240 --> 3:06:33.920 there a number of years ago. It was just demonstrate 3:06:34.080 --> 3:06:36.440 how many people love this place and how the four 3:06:36.560 --> 3:06:39.039 Service wasn't going to get away with what they're planning 3:06:39.080 --> 3:06:42.200 to do. UM because people, as we promised, would be 3:06:42.320 --> 3:06:44.600 back if they tried to log it and move forward 3:06:44.600 --> 3:06:46.640 with that logging, which, as you pointed out, and as 3:06:46.680 --> 3:06:49.480 we said last time, was super sketchy, not only because 3:06:49.640 --> 3:06:51.920 it was a terrible plan that they were planning to 3:06:52.000 --> 3:06:54.000 do UM in this beloved for us, but also because 3:06:54.040 --> 3:06:56.879 it was behind locked gates that in the public wasn't 3:06:56.879 --> 3:06:59.880 allowed into and so UM it was just this you know, 3:07:00.120 --> 3:07:03.400 travesty that was about to happen. And when we found out, um, 3:07:03.520 --> 3:07:07.080 and when we heard the judges incredibly strong ruling. Um. 3:07:08.120 --> 3:07:11.800 We you know, we're absolutely overjoyed. Um. The news spread, 3:07:12.000 --> 3:07:17.000 you know, like wildfire, excuse the pun it do it um, 3:07:17.240 --> 3:07:19.760 and just you know, all the signal threads were popping. 3:07:19.920 --> 3:07:22.440 People were putting it on Twitter. People were reposting the 3:07:22.520 --> 3:07:25.720 sexy photos of the blockade with the giant slash pile 3:07:25.800 --> 3:07:27.520 and the fire truck and the band on top of 3:07:27.560 --> 3:07:30.000 the fire truck. And I just wish that we all 3:07:30.080 --> 3:07:32.600 could have hung out again and had another dance party 3:07:32.600 --> 3:07:36.080 because it was the best that doesn't incredibly incredibly rad 3:07:36.560 --> 3:07:40.760 um was was like your this is this is this 3:07:40.800 --> 3:07:42.960 is something I don't I don't don't actually know, but 3:07:43.080 --> 3:07:46.400 it was like the documentation that was taking place by 3:07:46.480 --> 3:07:48.360 by going to these places and showing hey, this is 3:07:48.400 --> 3:07:50.959 where they're cutting. Was that brought up in the court 3:07:51.040 --> 3:07:53.959 case in terms of like, hey, this is we actually 3:07:54.120 --> 3:07:56.760 went and saw what's actually happening. So it was was 3:07:56.840 --> 3:07:59.600 that type of evidence used and did it, in your mind, 3:07:59.760 --> 3:08:04.480 like um um uh kind of be a small part 3:08:04.520 --> 3:08:08.560 of like the result of the ruling. Yeah, it definitely was. 3:08:08.680 --> 3:08:10.520 And that is such an important point and I really 3:08:10.560 --> 3:08:13.000 hope that everyone who's listening can just like put that 3:08:13.080 --> 3:08:15.360 in their minds for later. How important it is for 3:08:15.480 --> 3:08:18.520 people to be UM field surveying or sometimes we call 3:08:18.560 --> 3:08:22.800 it ground true thing UM these places and actually collecting 3:08:22.920 --> 3:08:26.640 documentation photographic evidence. UM. A lot of folks do kind 3:08:26.680 --> 3:08:29.480 of like what we call community surveying and collect um 3:08:29.640 --> 3:08:33.560 some site specific UM kind of like uh, community science 3:08:33.600 --> 3:08:35.680 sort of stuff. But all of that was used in 3:08:35.760 --> 3:08:37.760 court and it was super awesome. UM. I actually was 3:08:37.840 --> 3:08:40.160 one of the standing declarence, so I got to submit 3:08:40.240 --> 3:08:43.160 a lot of evidence from my many years of traveling 3:08:43.280 --> 3:08:46.520 that place. UM, and that all of that was referenced 3:08:46.560 --> 3:08:50.000 in court. So so so important. UM. Even you know, 3:08:50.400 --> 3:08:53.959 when the forest services essentially trying to kick everyone out 3:08:54.040 --> 3:08:56.520 and keep everyone out of these places, it's really important 3:08:56.560 --> 3:08:59.800 to go um and see them. Anyways. Obviously, you know, 3:09:00.160 --> 3:09:02.840 everyone needs to consider how they do that and their 3:09:02.840 --> 3:09:06.160 own security and safety UM, and it's becoming difficult UM, 3:09:06.400 --> 3:09:09.920 but certainly putting eyes on threatened places is one of 3:09:09.959 --> 3:09:12.800 the best tools we have to save them. Yeah. I 3:09:12.840 --> 3:09:16.920 just think that's really important to really focus on that 3:09:17.000 --> 3:09:20.080 as like a thing, because like, yeah, stuff that people 3:09:20.200 --> 3:09:25.600 did actually had an impact on this not happening right now. UM. 3:09:26.120 --> 3:09:29.160 And yeah, but by going out there and documenting and 3:09:29.280 --> 3:09:32.160 then talking about it, um, it has like an actual 3:09:32.400 --> 3:09:37.880 like causal relation, which is very hard to It's it's 3:09:37.920 --> 3:09:41.480 it's hard to get direct causal stuff to happen in 3:09:41.640 --> 3:09:45.200 like the general umbrella of activism. Um. And it's I 3:09:45.280 --> 3:09:49.800 think it's it's just really exciting that that that this happened. Yeah, 3:09:50.040 --> 3:09:53.440 that's so true. It does feel in the general umbrellaive 3:09:53.440 --> 3:09:55.440 activism really hard to point to things that we do 3:09:55.560 --> 3:09:58.359 that are actually making an effect, and this is totally 3:09:58.400 --> 3:10:01.040 one of them. I mean, wh and uh if and 3:10:01.120 --> 3:10:04.480 when this case does have its day in court, um, 3:10:05.360 --> 3:10:08.720 you know, outside of the preliminary injunction itself. UM, I 3:10:08.840 --> 3:10:11.400 am sure that so much of that evidence from all 3:10:11.480 --> 3:10:13.920 the folks who've been traveling there, um and documenting it 3:10:13.959 --> 3:10:16.800 will be used. We documented, you know, so many green 3:10:16.959 --> 3:10:20.240 living trees and places the Four Service that were dead. Um, 3:10:20.879 --> 3:10:24.000 you know, so many like unused roads in places the 3:10:24.040 --> 3:10:26.480 Forest Service said they needed to log alongside these roads 3:10:26.480 --> 3:10:29.360 because they're so trafficed and they're posing a safety hazard. 3:10:29.440 --> 3:10:32.520 And so it's basically like, you know, the best way 3:10:32.640 --> 3:10:36.160 to expose their gas lighting and lies is to just 3:10:36.320 --> 3:10:39.720 go document what's there. Yeah, because a big part of 3:10:39.760 --> 3:10:43.520 their ability to do this is utilizing deception in terms 3:10:43.560 --> 3:10:46.880 of like and and and utilizing like non information, Like 3:10:46.959 --> 3:10:50.199 they're just not talking about the stuff that's actually happening, 3:10:50.560 --> 3:10:53.160 or they're doing like white lies to make it sound better. 3:10:53.320 --> 3:10:55.320 So they're just they're they're lying about the type of 3:10:55.520 --> 3:10:57.840 like um uh, the type of sales that they're doing 3:10:58.360 --> 3:11:01.320 with these with these treets, and how they're classifying the 3:11:01.440 --> 3:11:03.960 trees that they're logging to like get it past all 3:11:04.000 --> 3:11:06.720 of the loopholes. But they're not actually like that, that's 3:11:06.760 --> 3:11:10.640 not actually reality. They're just changing the terms to make 3:11:10.720 --> 3:11:13.080 it fit what they want. So like as as soon 3:11:13.120 --> 3:11:14.640 as you start looking into this stuff, it gets all 3:11:14.879 --> 3:11:18.640 it gets very sketchy because it is they're just lying 3:11:18.680 --> 3:11:20.760 about a lot of this stuff. Like if you're like 3:11:20.840 --> 3:11:23.560 listening and be like, oh, you know, be these people 3:11:23.680 --> 3:11:25.840 just love trees, Like yes, we do love trees, but 3:11:25.920 --> 3:11:28.280 like the actual thing that's going on is like they're 3:11:28.360 --> 3:11:30.640 lying about the types of damage that's being done. They're 3:11:30.720 --> 3:11:33.240 lying about what areas this is happening in all to 3:11:33.360 --> 3:11:35.760 just rack up more timber sales like that that that 3:11:35.920 --> 3:11:38.760 is that that that is what's actually happening. Um. And 3:11:38.879 --> 3:11:42.000 that's so so important to say, like loudly and clearly, 3:11:42.080 --> 3:11:46.800 because the Forest Service and other management agencies are experts 3:11:46.920 --> 3:11:50.920 in making the public feel dumb and wrong and misinformed. 3:11:51.040 --> 3:11:53.360 And right now, even we sound a little wing nutty 3:11:53.480 --> 3:11:58.520 being like yeah, you know, but like let us be clear, 3:11:58.720 --> 3:12:02.720 a federal judge agree with us, Yeah, yeah, you know, 3:12:02.959 --> 3:12:05.480 like we're not the ones who are wrong here, and 3:12:05.600 --> 3:12:07.560 I think you're totally right. You know, they're using a 3:12:07.640 --> 3:12:12.080 mixture of blatant lies, um, but also euphemisms like we 3:12:12.680 --> 3:12:14.600 no one's they don't they don't use the word clear 3:12:14.680 --> 3:12:18.720 cut anymore. They're using all of these euphemisms, you know, regeneration, harvest, 3:12:18.800 --> 3:12:21.920 I ship you not a lot of and a lot 3:12:22.000 --> 3:12:23.760 of this stuff that they're deciding to do is like 3:12:24.200 --> 3:12:25.880 not open to the public. You need to do like 3:12:25.920 --> 3:12:29.040 fully requests to to to actually learn what they're doing, 3:12:29.240 --> 3:12:31.200 because they don't talk about it like that. It is all. 3:12:31.720 --> 3:12:34.080 It is all extremely sketchy and yeah, like the fact 3:12:34.120 --> 3:12:37.720 that like a federal a federal judge agreed with like 3:12:38.120 --> 3:12:42.040 green activists is not a sentence you here often so 3:12:42.440 --> 3:12:44.520 like it's like yeah, like this is actually a thing, 3:12:44.720 --> 3:12:46.480 and it's it's important to remember, like you are not 3:12:46.680 --> 3:12:50.080 immune to propaganda, like all a lot of this stuff 3:12:50.320 --> 3:12:53.800 is uh is has people who want a lot of 3:12:53.840 --> 3:12:57.160 money are vested in making people believe things about about 3:12:57.200 --> 3:13:00.480 about like force management, all this kind of stuff. Um. Yeah, 3:13:00.520 --> 3:13:02.520 I know it may it may sound crazy when we're 3:13:02.560 --> 3:13:06.400 talking about you know, the secret illuminati of the Force Service. 3:13:06.560 --> 3:13:08.680 But like, no, like it acts like it's it is 3:13:08.800 --> 3:13:12.200 a it is a governmental organization. All governmental organizations are 3:13:12.280 --> 3:13:15.000 kind of sketchy, especially when their sole purpose is to 3:13:15.520 --> 3:13:17.640 one of their purposes is to make money or assistant 3:13:17.640 --> 3:13:19.880 like sales of something like yeah, it's it's gonna have 3:13:20.000 --> 3:13:24.000 some sketchy stuff. Um. Absolutely, and also you know in 3:13:24.120 --> 3:13:27.040 the realm of just like the propaganda machine. Um we 3:13:27.440 --> 3:13:30.959 you know. Just the other day, UM, a hilarious response 3:13:31.040 --> 3:13:34.520 piece came out from the timber industry and organization called 3:13:34.560 --> 3:13:38.800 Federal Forest Resource Coalition, which is just a coalition of loggers. 3:13:39.280 --> 3:13:43.120 UM put out this hilarious little mini video responding directly 3:13:43.240 --> 3:13:45.440 to the line that we've been using in forest events, 3:13:45.480 --> 3:13:48.200 which is worth more standing. Our forests are worth more standing. 3:13:48.560 --> 3:13:51.279 And they put out a hilarious response that is essentially 3:13:51.360 --> 3:13:55.600 you know, pushing this timber sale, this logging propaganda, saying well, actually, 3:13:56.040 --> 3:13:59.000 our forests aren't worth anything standing after they've been burned, 3:13:59.080 --> 3:14:01.480 and their contry a beating to the climate crisis, and 3:14:01.600 --> 3:14:03.880 they're destructive and you know in all these things, and 3:14:04.000 --> 3:14:07.240 so totally, I mean, even people who see it with 3:14:07.400 --> 3:14:11.240 their eyes can be convinced by these voices that they're 3:14:11.320 --> 3:14:14.600 wrong because they're so good, so good at making us 3:14:14.680 --> 3:14:17.280 feel just like we're the wrong ones, but we're not. 3:14:18.080 --> 3:14:20.200 We got this, yeah, in terms of like this the 3:14:20.320 --> 3:14:23.120 secretive kind of decision making and stuff behind the scenes, 3:14:23.160 --> 3:14:25.720 in terms of like the types of like terms they're 3:14:25.800 --> 3:14:30.440 using to to you know, do like restoration, thinning, um 3:14:30.959 --> 3:14:33.840 and all this stuff around around trying to like basically 3:14:33.879 --> 3:14:36.320 just just take as many trees from the Bright britsh 3:14:36.400 --> 3:14:41.000 Watershed as they can. And the judge said that she 3:14:41.280 --> 3:14:45.959 was quote disappointed in the agency, uh for for all 3:14:46.040 --> 3:14:50.840 of their silly behind the scenes trench coat meat in 3:14:50.879 --> 3:14:54.720 the dark alley way to pass off information type of thing, um, 3:14:55.400 --> 3:14:58.040 which is yeah, like so what what what is what 3:14:58.240 --> 3:15:01.840 is some of the other kind of stuff that the 3:15:01.920 --> 3:15:05.360 four Service and the related organizations were trying to we're 3:15:05.360 --> 3:15:07.040 trying to hide like what like what what what? What? What? 3:15:07.160 --> 3:15:10.200 What was the stuff that like came out um via 3:15:10.280 --> 3:15:12.320 this legal process that was like yeah, what was it 3:15:12.440 --> 3:15:14.360 was the what's a few of the actual things that 3:15:14.440 --> 3:15:17.320 they were that they were trying to do that eventually 3:15:17.640 --> 3:15:21.560 like came to light. M h. The major thing is 3:15:21.800 --> 3:15:25.240 that they were trying to get away with changing the 3:15:25.360 --> 3:15:30.680 logging contracts without doing any additional environmental analysis or public 3:15:30.760 --> 3:15:35.880 engagement process. And so there were before there were there 3:15:36.000 --> 3:15:38.200 was a plan to do what they what we had 3:15:38.320 --> 3:15:41.680 fought them so hard to get them to agree to do, 3:15:42.080 --> 3:15:45.160 which was not log a bunch of these this older 3:15:45.240 --> 3:15:48.480 stands protect tree. They had a diameter limit on trees 3:15:48.520 --> 3:15:50.080 that they were going to log. So we basically like 3:15:50.200 --> 3:15:53.200 slapped their hands off of all of these trees and 3:15:53.320 --> 3:15:56.000 finally were like, okay, we won't sue you if you 3:15:56.040 --> 3:15:58.680 move forward with the plan as stated, and it had 3:15:58.879 --> 3:16:01.680 very strong side bore words and you know, even local 3:16:01.720 --> 3:16:04.320 folks were like, okay, go do this. And then the 3:16:04.400 --> 3:16:06.120 fires came through and so what they were trying to 3:16:06.160 --> 3:16:08.320 do was just change the plans. They turned it all 3:16:08.320 --> 3:16:11.240 into clear cuts in the forest. That we slapped their 3:16:11.240 --> 3:16:13.520 hands off of and they were trying to argue that 3:16:13.680 --> 3:16:16.600 they didn't need to do any an additional analysis and 3:16:16.640 --> 3:16:19.720 they didn't need to engage the public, and even in court, 3:16:19.840 --> 3:16:21.760 you know, that's what they were arguing. Um they are 3:16:21.959 --> 3:16:25.880 they're doing some stupid magic math and you know, somersaults, 3:16:26.320 --> 3:16:29.600 um to try and explain how they had already done 3:16:29.640 --> 3:16:33.440 an analysis that accounted somehow for the fires that no 3:16:33.520 --> 3:16:37.800 one could have ever predicted before. A yeah. So the 3:16:37.879 --> 3:16:40.760 judge was like just you know, she was just roundly like, 3:16:41.400 --> 3:16:43.640 y'all couldn't have predicted. I like to give her, you know, 3:16:43.720 --> 3:16:47.600 Southern accident, y'all, I couldn't have predicted, Judge Akins still 3:16:47.680 --> 3:16:51.120 the South. No, Uh, you couldn't have predicted. Uh, you 3:16:51.200 --> 3:16:53.240 know that the fires were going to burn through and 3:16:53.400 --> 3:16:55.760 so there's no way you could have done analysis for 3:16:55.920 --> 3:16:57.600 fire that you didn't know what's going to happen. Here 3:16:57.760 --> 3:17:00.160 used silly little beasts. But she did talk to them, um, 3:17:00.600 --> 3:17:03.080 you know, as if they were just naughty little children, 3:17:03.160 --> 3:17:05.680 which I loved to hear. You know, the disappointed in 3:17:05.720 --> 3:17:08.360 the Forest Service was a major move. And I think 3:17:08.440 --> 3:17:10.400 the other one that came up is just you know, 3:17:10.480 --> 3:17:13.720 the Forest Service was arguing that they needed quote need 3:17:13.840 --> 3:17:19.200 to do this logging um, for restoration, for economic recovery, um, 3:17:19.280 --> 3:17:22.760 and to prevent future wildfires from severely burning in the area. 3:17:23.320 --> 3:17:26.040 All of that to BS. Like. One thing that the 3:17:26.320 --> 3:17:29.360 judge said that was super strong, UM was that she 3:17:30.160 --> 3:17:33.880 sees and obviously on paraphrasing here, um, but she she 3:17:34.080 --> 3:17:38.200 sees that the community loves this place. It's obvious that 3:17:38.320 --> 3:17:40.800 this is like a beloved place, and she, you know, 3:17:40.959 --> 3:17:43.920 essentially understands that the forest is worth more standing. She 3:17:44.000 --> 3:17:45.959 said that she wanted she thinks that the forest needs 3:17:45.959 --> 3:17:49.480 an opportunity to recover from the fires, and so basically 3:17:49.560 --> 3:17:53.080 just called the BS on the Forest Service for their hilarious, 3:17:53.200 --> 3:17:56.360 you know, justifications for logging. All the we're gonna save 3:17:56.440 --> 3:17:59.520 the forest by logging. It is just not it's not right, 3:17:59.760 --> 3:18:03.880 not accurate, and the judge agrees. Yeah. I mean, I'm 3:18:04.240 --> 3:18:07.000 very very excited about about this ruling and what it 3:18:07.080 --> 3:18:09.280 means for the future and at least at least at 3:18:09.360 --> 3:18:12.440 least postponing this until um if if if the if 3:18:12.480 --> 3:18:14.280 if the lawsuit is going going to go through or 3:18:14.360 --> 3:18:15.960 if or if they're just going to drop this, which 3:18:16.120 --> 3:18:19.000 they also very well, maybe they might decide to focus 3:18:19.080 --> 3:18:21.280 on another part that is that they just don't tell 3:18:21.320 --> 3:18:24.080 anybody about and start doing it there and then you know, 3:18:24.200 --> 3:18:26.520 we'll we'll start we'll start this again. But for this 3:18:26.640 --> 3:18:30.320 particular area, UM, that is that is very exciting, and yeah, 3:18:30.440 --> 3:18:32.320 it is. It is rare for a federal judge to 3:18:32.440 --> 3:18:36.680 agree with people on this topic. UM. And now I 3:18:36.760 --> 3:18:38.080 want want to talk about a few other kind of 3:18:38.520 --> 3:18:42.520 stuff around like forests, um and how and how these 3:18:42.600 --> 3:18:44.880 kind of types of things work. I I didn't get 3:18:44.959 --> 3:18:48.000 an interesting comment which I totally agree with in terms 3:18:48.040 --> 3:18:51.760 of like how propaganda works in this department, um. And 3:18:51.879 --> 3:18:54.720 how like how like logging towns operate, or how like 3:18:54.840 --> 3:18:57.400 towns became logging towns. How like they're basically able to 3:18:57.520 --> 3:19:01.959 convince local populations that logging is is like good because 3:19:02.000 --> 3:19:03.840 like yeah, like they're they're gonna they're gonna move into 3:19:03.879 --> 3:19:06.640 this town, they're gonna restore the town because they're gonna 3:19:06.720 --> 3:19:09.480 bring in new money through like a logging industry. UM. 3:19:09.800 --> 3:19:12.280 And yeah, this is a very like, very like a 3:19:12.440 --> 3:19:14.600 typical move, whether it be for like you know, coal mining, 3:19:14.959 --> 3:19:17.640 whether it be for pipelines, in terms of like big 3:19:17.680 --> 3:19:19.600 companies going into small towns to be like, hey, we 3:19:19.640 --> 3:19:22.800 can promise you economic growth if you can like assist 3:19:23.080 --> 3:19:26.360 in this you know, extractive process, and they'll be able 3:19:26.400 --> 3:19:29.120 to convince them with you know, misleading statistics on and 3:19:29.240 --> 3:19:31.280 you know all that kind of stuff. In terms of 3:19:31.400 --> 3:19:35.480 logging industry is getting getting really good at radicalizing rule 3:19:35.720 --> 3:19:40.360 populations to have them believe that it's one not it's 3:19:40.440 --> 3:19:43.720 it's not like economically destructive to take down trees. They 3:19:43.800 --> 3:19:46.800 might even say it's like good, um and all all 3:19:46.920 --> 3:19:49.880 that kind of stuff has have Has there been like 3:19:49.920 --> 3:19:54.440 any outreach in terms of kind of addressing addressing people 3:19:54.600 --> 3:19:57.640 in small towns who like maybe used to like you know, 3:19:57.879 --> 3:20:00.720 rely on unlogging or something and how does how does 3:20:00.760 --> 3:20:02.400 that works? I know, like they'll be like, oh, but 3:20:02.800 --> 3:20:04.920 you people come from the city and now you're coming 3:20:04.959 --> 3:20:06.760 out here into like the woods where I live, and 3:20:07.040 --> 3:20:09.640 I think it's good that they're chopping down these trees. Right. 3:20:09.800 --> 3:20:11.440 There's there's there's there's like that kind of that that 3:20:11.560 --> 3:20:14.879 kind of disconnection because again, no one, no one's immune 3:20:14.879 --> 3:20:16.560 to propaganda. You can you just you just just have 3:20:16.640 --> 3:20:20.400 to find the specific one. Um. See I'm just curious about, 3:20:20.440 --> 3:20:22.520 like in terms of in terms of like forest defense, 3:20:22.560 --> 3:20:25.080 how often this comes up and how and how you 3:20:25.240 --> 3:20:28.400 kind of yeah, I don't know what's what steps to 3:20:28.480 --> 3:20:31.119 make to to be like to tell people, hey, maybe 3:20:31.600 --> 3:20:35.400 you're believe these things because timber industries told you them, 3:20:35.879 --> 3:20:38.119 Like how how? How how do you start that conversation 3:20:38.160 --> 3:20:42.200 with people? Yeah, this is like actually the heart of 3:20:43.200 --> 3:20:47.000 the forest defense work ahead, what you're talking about right now, 3:20:47.280 --> 3:20:50.000 the heart of our work ahead, um. And I would 3:20:50.040 --> 3:20:54.720 also say, you know, there's a there's certainly, um, a 3:20:55.600 --> 3:20:59.320 dichotomy that the media especially likes to present between the 3:20:59.520 --> 3:21:04.440 rural logging communities and you know, Portland or city based 3:21:04.480 --> 3:21:07.880 in batimentalists and the hippie environmentalists to come in and 3:21:08.080 --> 3:21:10.760 yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, And everyone's familiar with that, 3:21:10.920 --> 3:21:13.360 and there's of course some truth um to that, but 3:21:13.480 --> 3:21:16.400 I want to say, like super clearly, there are so 3:21:16.760 --> 3:21:21.199 many rural folks who do not support the logging industry, 3:21:21.240 --> 3:21:23.440 and so that's like a false dichotomy that gets presented 3:21:23.480 --> 3:21:25.320 to us right off the bat, and a lot of 3:21:25.400 --> 3:21:28.720 those you know, for in the in um the work 3:21:28.840 --> 3:21:32.720 that I've been doing on forest forest defense, Essentially, we're 3:21:32.760 --> 3:21:36.120 always connecting with folks on the ground in literally the 3:21:36.160 --> 3:21:39.840 backyards of these logging proposals, and many of them are 3:21:39.959 --> 3:21:43.280 super uninterested in having their backyards clear cut. And so 3:21:43.480 --> 3:21:46.840 we you know, the we we pushed directly against that 3:21:46.959 --> 3:21:50.240 mythology that you know, it's just environmentalists coming in from Portland, 3:21:50.320 --> 3:21:52.920 because we work directly with people, including for Brighton Bush, 3:21:53.000 --> 3:21:55.040 but with every single thing that we work on directly 3:21:55.080 --> 3:21:56.840 with people who are literally on the front lines of 3:21:56.879 --> 3:22:01.360 that logging. That said, there is absolutely um a huge 3:22:01.640 --> 3:22:05.360 pole um. You know, Oregon specifically as you know, famous 3:22:05.400 --> 3:22:07.320 for logging. Like we talked about last time, there's a 3:22:07.600 --> 3:22:10.440 logger on top of the capitol. UM. You know, are 3:22:10.560 --> 3:22:18.760 the mayor of Portland's logging money It's in Oregon's Oregonians blood. Yeah, 3:22:18.840 --> 3:22:22.879 and for rural Oregonians, UM, there are economic realities where 3:22:23.240 --> 3:22:27.920 in some cases some counties benefit from um logging in 3:22:28.040 --> 3:22:30.640 their total from the logging industry, their school you know, 3:22:30.760 --> 3:22:33.800 schools are tied to logging money. UM. And there's you know, 3:22:34.440 --> 3:22:37.240 in a lot of ways a narrative that is not 3:22:37.440 --> 3:22:40.800 really accurate anymore, but has like an element of nostalgia 3:22:40.840 --> 3:22:43.800 to it. Like you know, logging towns and um this 3:22:43.959 --> 3:22:46.680 old story about how things used to work with small, 3:22:47.120 --> 3:22:51.200 small family logging. That's not how it is anymore. But 3:22:51.320 --> 3:22:55.080 that narrative that like nostalgic narrative, carries on into a 3:22:55.160 --> 3:22:57.240 lot of communities. And so what the way that I 3:22:57.360 --> 3:22:59.720 like to cut through that um for people is by 3:22:59.800 --> 3:23:03.760 makeing it really clear that there's a difference between small 3:23:04.120 --> 3:23:07.720 you know, family loggers of lore um and and you 3:23:07.800 --> 3:23:10.000 know of you know, people's what people are attached to 3:23:10.360 --> 3:23:12.640 and the kinds of what we're seeing today is we're 3:23:12.680 --> 3:23:16.279 looking at Wall Street logging. We're looking at Wall Street 3:23:16.680 --> 3:23:22.560 invested UM invested, huge you know, corporate industries who owned 3:23:23.160 --> 3:23:27.039 who can who still own like you know, huge percentages 3:23:27.120 --> 3:23:30.080 of our drinking water sheds, of our um communities. Some 3:23:30.400 --> 3:23:32.920 some of the communities on the coast are owned primarily 3:23:33.000 --> 3:23:38.520 by private industrial Wall Street funded UM logging corporations. And 3:23:38.720 --> 3:23:40.760 that's you know, those aren't mom and pop. They're not 3:23:41.080 --> 3:23:43.800 living in the community. They're living often not even on 3:23:43.879 --> 3:23:48.240 the Pacific Northwest. These are rich ass assholes who are 3:23:48.360 --> 3:23:54.280 destroying our bioregion. And you know, I think that making 3:23:54.320 --> 3:23:58.240 it clear that those aren't those folks are not like us. 3:23:58.360 --> 3:24:01.960 You know, those are not like rural Aragonians, your those 3:24:02.000 --> 3:24:04.360 are not your friends. Those are not you know, your 3:24:04.400 --> 3:24:07.560 pals or your neighbors. And just cutting through that narrative 3:24:07.640 --> 3:24:10.760 that like, oh, you know logging communities, Um, you know 3:24:10.879 --> 3:24:14.600 loggers are your friendly neighbor. Actually, no, loggers are Wall Street, Um, 3:24:15.320 --> 3:24:18.920 you know, investment corporations, rich money people who are doing 3:24:19.000 --> 3:24:22.720 this destruction. And just kind of like breaking that I guess, 3:24:22.800 --> 3:24:27.000 like that um, that attachment that people have to this idea, 3:24:27.120 --> 3:24:33.040 that's just not a reality anymore. The reality is that 3:24:34.120 --> 3:24:38.240 people who are for logging in rural communities are they 3:24:38.320 --> 3:24:40.400 have a lot more common with those of us who 3:24:40.440 --> 3:24:43.920 are fighting logging than the actual people doing the logging, 3:24:44.000 --> 3:24:46.400 if that makes sense. Like there's a lack of understanding 3:24:47.000 --> 3:24:49.720 of what the logging industry actually is. It's like back 3:24:49.760 --> 3:24:52.280 to that nostalgia, Like people who are against logging in 3:24:52.400 --> 3:24:57.400 rural communities, um, you know often genuinely do not realize 3:24:57.480 --> 3:25:00.480 that this is Wall Street and like who's doing this logging. 3:25:00.520 --> 3:25:02.720 They're still thinking it's their you know, neighbor or their 3:25:02.800 --> 3:25:05.360 friend and it's you know, these stories. But you know 3:25:05.480 --> 3:25:09.080 the reality is that you know, this is corporate timber 3:25:09.120 --> 3:25:12.440 owners who are maximizing their financial gain by buying out 3:25:12.520 --> 3:25:15.920 small landowners all over the place, um ensuring that they 3:25:15.959 --> 3:25:19.400 aren't taxed by lobbying heavily in the government, so they 3:25:19.440 --> 3:25:21.720 don't you know, have any sort of taxation that then 3:25:21.760 --> 3:25:23.800 goes back to benefit our communities. Don't even get me 3:25:23.840 --> 3:25:26.360 started about how many taxes the timber industry skips out 3:25:26.400 --> 3:25:29.280 on that could actually benefit our communities and our schools 3:25:29.280 --> 3:25:32.480 and our libraries and our fire departments but aren't. UM. 3:25:32.760 --> 3:25:36.440 And then they're adopting exploitative labor practices. Basically, you know, 3:25:36.520 --> 3:25:39.920 the contracted workers who are in the logging industry right now, 3:25:39.959 --> 3:25:43.240 who are doing the logging and hauling UM and reforestation 3:25:43.400 --> 3:25:47.640 so called reforestation planting of mono crop plantations, they are 3:25:47.760 --> 3:25:51.920 experiencing flat wages and declining work quality conditions um. Meanwhile, 3:25:51.959 --> 3:25:55.440 while the corporate timber forms are expanding their profits um 3:25:55.800 --> 3:25:58.600 and you know, getting more wealthy investors. So that is 3:25:58.680 --> 3:26:02.480 the reality of the timber industry. These are not you know, 3:26:02.600 --> 3:26:06.520 your friendly neighborhood loggers anymore. So. A few other points 3:26:06.520 --> 3:26:08.520 I wanted to bring up, kind of on force itself 3:26:08.760 --> 3:26:13.560 someone someone said something about how we talked about like 3:26:13.720 --> 3:26:17.040 old growth, and and I guess they think that we 3:26:17.160 --> 3:26:21.080 said that all forests in this area is old growth, 3:26:21.160 --> 3:26:23.360 and that's not something we actually said. Old growth is 3:26:23.600 --> 3:26:26.920 a specific term that means a specific thing. And yeah, 3:26:27.040 --> 3:26:29.280 regardless of it being old growth or not, they still 3:26:29.280 --> 3:26:32.400 shouldn't be cut down. I don't know, So I'm not 3:26:32.480 --> 3:26:34.440 sure why this point was really raised, because we didn't 3:26:34.760 --> 3:26:38.120 I did. I don't think we did, uh say that 3:26:38.200 --> 3:26:41.200 every that every tree there is is old growth. Um. 3:26:41.680 --> 3:26:43.160 A lot of them were planted in the past few 3:26:43.240 --> 3:26:46.080 hundred years, UM, But that that doesn't mean like they're 3:26:46.560 --> 3:26:50.200 like much less important. It's like, just because they're not 3:26:50.240 --> 3:26:53.240 old growth doesn't mean we shouldn't be preserving this particular 3:26:53.560 --> 3:26:55.960 watershed in this particular environment and not be clear cutting 3:26:55.959 --> 3:26:58.880 all of it. Yeah, old growth is like like the 3:26:59.040 --> 3:27:01.600 term old growth is just like become fetishized to me, 3:27:01.680 --> 3:27:04.040 and this like this thing that you know. This also, 3:27:04.200 --> 3:27:06.080 let's be clear, that's not an agreement on what old 3:27:06.120 --> 3:27:09.040 growth actually means across the board, even between agencies, Like 3:27:09.160 --> 3:27:12.400 there's an arbitrary date cut off that the federal government 3:27:12.520 --> 3:27:15.080 uses to define old growth. UM. But obviously if you 3:27:15.120 --> 3:27:17.880 walk into a forest stand, this a healthy you know, 3:27:17.959 --> 3:27:22.160 a healthy old growth stand is complex in terms of 3:27:22.280 --> 3:27:25.039 age diversity. There's going to be old growth individual trees, 3:27:25.040 --> 3:27:26.560 there's going to be a lot of younger trees. Is 3:27:26.600 --> 3:27:30.920 gonna be horizontal and vertical diversification, Like old growth is complicated, 3:27:30.959 --> 3:27:33.680 it's messy, But the whole point is like you're right, 3:27:33.800 --> 3:27:36.480 Like it doesn't actually matter if it's like quote in 3:27:36.640 --> 3:27:39.480 the CAD, the small narrow category of what the Forest 3:27:39.480 --> 3:27:41.560 Service would define as old growth, if it's a forest 3:27:41.640 --> 3:27:44.680 that's been around for you know, a hundred years or 3:27:44.720 --> 3:27:46.520 even you know, I would argue, if it's a forest 3:27:46.600 --> 3:27:49.000 that's over like seventy or eighty years old, what are 3:27:49.040 --> 3:27:53.800 we doing cutting that down? Especially now you know that's 3:27:53.840 --> 3:27:56.560 storing so much carbon safely in the ground. And also 3:27:56.640 --> 3:27:59.120 by that age, it's had the opportunity, you know, to 3:27:59.600 --> 3:28:03.680 to become more diverse than these like monocrop plantations that 3:28:03.760 --> 3:28:07.000 we're seeing younger forests. So I would argue any forest 3:28:07.080 --> 3:28:10.640 that's not a monocrop plantation, a young monocrop plantation should 3:28:10.640 --> 3:28:13.400 absolutely not be clear cut. It's just an inappropriate activity 3:28:13.480 --> 3:28:16.160 to do in native forest and speaking of a clear cut, 3:28:16.280 --> 3:28:21.840 there was another Another comment was about how clear cutting 3:28:22.120 --> 3:28:26.440 can sometimes be good because it creates new environments for 3:28:26.600 --> 3:28:31.360 other animals and living things to exist in. And I 3:28:31.480 --> 3:28:34.440 find this to be a really weird comment to make. Um, 3:28:35.080 --> 3:28:38.879 I don't, I don't quite understand this, this kind of idea, 3:28:39.000 --> 3:28:42.560 because yes, of course, if you cut down a forest, 3:28:42.840 --> 3:28:46.640 you are creating a new environment, but that's not where 3:28:46.680 --> 3:28:49.000 that environment should be, nor is it where it is. 3:28:49.040 --> 3:28:51.120 It's like if you if you erect a whole bunch 3:28:51.160 --> 3:28:54.080 of concrete skyscrapers where a force used to be. Yeah, 3:28:54.120 --> 3:28:56.879 you're also making a new environment. But I would say 3:28:57.000 --> 3:28:59.160 we probably shouldn't do that, though I don't. That's not 3:28:59.240 --> 3:29:00.840 that's not a good thing. The same thing with like 3:29:00.879 --> 3:29:03.640 the people obsessed with like putting solar panels in the desert, 3:29:03.920 --> 3:29:06.480 Like the desert is an actual environment, like it has 3:29:06.879 --> 3:29:09.840 There is reasons for why deserts need to exist and 3:29:10.320 --> 3:29:13.840 that have this whole like a whole like a whole 3:29:14.120 --> 3:29:17.720 whole environment and a whole um I forget the word, 3:29:17.800 --> 3:29:21.000 but like and it has an entire system of living 3:29:21.120 --> 3:29:25.959 things that exist there that should Um, we we don't 3:29:26.040 --> 3:29:28.880 need to terraform everything. I don't think that's like, I 3:29:28.959 --> 3:29:32.440 don't we shouldn't. I think preserving the environment in general, 3:29:32.520 --> 3:29:35.680 preserving the environments that are existing and who are creating 3:29:35.760 --> 3:29:39.200 like ecosystems, is a good thing. I think generally, the 3:29:39.280 --> 3:29:42.760 less terraforming probably probably the better, at least right now, 3:29:42.840 --> 3:29:46.119 when we're dealing with a massive like looming climate crisis 3:29:46.400 --> 3:29:50.000 that's caused by us terraforming the earth. Um, maybe we 3:29:50.040 --> 3:29:52.920 should not do that as much. Yeah, we could call 3:29:52.920 --> 3:29:55.440 a bout a general role like no more terraforming, You'll 3:29:55.560 --> 3:29:57.880 just leave it. Let's just let's just leave let's leave 3:29:57.959 --> 3:30:00.320 us for a bit. We just addressed the other things. 3:30:00.800 --> 3:30:03.760 But for real, though, whoever wrote that comment, I mean, 3:30:03.920 --> 3:30:06.960 that is a timber industry talking point that at the 3:30:07.040 --> 3:30:09.600 time it's literally, that is literally and whether they meant 3:30:09.640 --> 3:30:11.400 it or not, you know, this is how the timber 3:30:11.440 --> 3:30:14.240 industry gets us. They're real good at this. This is there, 3:30:14.480 --> 3:30:17.280 you know, nice sounding talking points that we rebut all 3:30:17.360 --> 3:30:20.200 the time, um, you know, not just in media but 3:30:20.360 --> 3:30:24.440 also in court. Um. And the talking point is clear 3:30:24.520 --> 3:30:30.120 cuts mimic natural disasters like severe fires by replacing it. 3:30:30.280 --> 3:30:35.200 And it's part totally don't clear cut, go look at 3:30:35.240 --> 3:30:37.920 a fire. It's a completely different experience than I could 3:30:37.920 --> 3:30:40.320 go down that rabbit hole all day on fire ecology 3:30:40.720 --> 3:30:43.920 another time maybe, but suffice it's to say, you know, 3:30:45.320 --> 3:30:48.880 what they're arguing is that they're creating young forest or 3:30:49.000 --> 3:30:52.440 quote early several habitat by clear cutting an old forest. 3:30:52.680 --> 3:30:56.320 But what they're actually doing is DeForest station. They're replacing 3:30:56.400 --> 3:30:59.920 an old forest with something that's not forest, A young 3:31:00.120 --> 3:31:03.640 mono crop plantation is a crop. It is not a forest, 3:31:03.879 --> 3:31:08.800 and so they are deforesting, and um, it is ecosystem. 3:31:08.959 --> 3:31:13.680 It is ecoside, and um, yeah it is. It is egoside. 3:31:13.680 --> 3:31:16.360 And I think, yeah, the insistence that like it's it's 3:31:16.400 --> 3:31:19.760 good because it will allow some species to exist in 3:31:19.840 --> 3:31:22.000 this new environment, like, yeah, but there's other environments where 3:31:22.000 --> 3:31:23.520 they can't exist, and we don't we don't need to 3:31:23.520 --> 3:31:26.320 be destroying the ones that are already kind of important 3:31:26.360 --> 3:31:29.080 and doing good stuff to make room for other ones 3:31:29.160 --> 3:31:31.720 that aren't already there. And they argue that the deer 3:31:31.800 --> 3:31:34.160 and the butterflies love the clear cuts, and so just 3:31:34.400 --> 3:31:36.560 call that out as bullshit next time you'all hear that. 3:31:36.720 --> 3:31:38.880 It's you know, spread the word that is some timber 3:31:38.920 --> 3:31:41.000 industry bs. They're tricksy, but don't let them get you. 3:31:41.120 --> 3:31:44.640 And the last thing I want to mention is why 3:31:45.200 --> 3:31:48.039 blocking off access to these areas is bad. Um, because 3:31:48.360 --> 3:31:51.120 I got someone someone said something like, um, you know, 3:31:52.240 --> 3:31:57.560 because fires are human caused, closing off public lands is 3:31:57.920 --> 3:32:00.760 it can be good because then fires wone gets hurt 3:32:00.760 --> 3:32:04.800 in those areas, And this really just misunderstands why fires 3:32:04.840 --> 3:32:07.280 get started. And also it's just a bad thing to 3:32:07.360 --> 3:32:10.280 do anyway, because like fire if you look at like 3:32:10.280 --> 3:32:13.120 the map of where wildfires start, um, almost all of 3:32:13.240 --> 3:32:17.520 them are on the path of highways. UM. Specifically in 3:32:17.600 --> 3:32:20.280 California that when when the fires are really there. There 3:32:20.320 --> 3:32:22.240 was a firefighter who who who made a great video 3:32:22.760 --> 3:32:25.280 about like why the fire line was all next to 3:32:25.560 --> 3:32:27.600 the highway and there was like conspiracy theories of like 3:32:27.959 --> 3:32:31.560 including the Antifa's driving down highways and setting the forest 3:32:31.640 --> 3:32:34.480 on fire, which was which was an actual popular talking 3:32:34.600 --> 3:32:37.000 point because we live in the hell world. Um. But 3:32:37.120 --> 3:32:38.880 like you know, he's explained like the reason why, like 3:32:39.000 --> 3:32:41.920 they are like human caused, but they're not, like a 3:32:42.000 --> 3:32:44.200 lot of them aren't intentionally caused. It's because that's where 3:32:44.200 --> 3:32:46.400 power lines run. And this is where a lot of 3:32:46.600 --> 3:32:49.640 sparks can ignite stuff on the edges of of of 3:32:49.800 --> 3:32:52.280 highways that will then take out a part of the forest. Now, 3:32:52.520 --> 3:32:54.920 every once in a while there's a gender reveal party 3:32:54.959 --> 3:32:57.800 that goes horribly wrong and does and and does ignite it. 3:32:57.840 --> 3:32:59.760 That is true, and I think the solution to that 3:32:59.879 --> 3:33:03.480 is not closing down the forest. It's not having gender 3:33:03.680 --> 3:33:09.760 reveal parties that we stopped selling uh on Amazon. I'm 3:33:09.800 --> 3:33:12.199 all thor Tanna right as an idea, But how about 3:33:12.240 --> 3:33:15.600 let's stop selling blue and pink Tanna right packets to 3:33:15.640 --> 3:33:19.520 people who don't know how to use explosives genuinely don't know, 3:33:19.840 --> 3:33:21.560 because yeah, like they're not they're not actually using Tanna 3:33:21.640 --> 3:33:23.360 right for what it's meant for, and they're not using 3:33:23.400 --> 3:33:26.480 it to do like like training. Um, they're using it 3:33:26.600 --> 3:33:28.680 to say that they're having a baby. And this has 3:33:28.720 --> 3:33:31.800 caused a lot of wildfire death. So how how about 3:33:31.840 --> 3:33:36.440 we just stopped selling uh the gender reveal party bombs. 3:33:37.200 --> 3:33:39.400 I think that'd be a better solution than closing down 3:33:39.840 --> 3:33:44.400 massive swaths of public land. And how about our power 3:33:44.480 --> 3:33:47.800 line companies get their ship together and stop Yeah, do 3:33:48.240 --> 3:33:51.920 actually have a plan for planned power shut offs. And actually, 3:33:52.040 --> 3:33:55.280 you know, we know now actually Pacific Corps is in 3:33:56.000 --> 3:33:59.320 court right now because they started the Santiam fires. Their 3:33:59.360 --> 3:34:02.040 power lines started the stand Inspires and the Archie Creek 3:34:02.120 --> 3:34:05.280 fires and probably more. And so yeah, how about the 3:34:05.320 --> 3:34:07.600 powerline companies get their ship together. But I feel like 3:34:07.680 --> 3:34:10.120 the other huge thing here is that, you know, the 3:34:10.200 --> 3:34:12.560 suggestion that we should close off these forests to the 3:34:12.640 --> 3:34:17.360 public to me is just like more uh you know, 3:34:17.879 --> 3:34:21.160 it's you know, blatantly it's racist, um, and it's you know, 3:34:21.320 --> 3:34:25.560 I think it's wrong because these lands, these belong to 3:34:25.720 --> 3:34:28.640 indigenous people. We should be giving these lands back to 3:34:28.800 --> 3:34:31.400 indigenous people. And you know, when we're talking about like 3:34:31.520 --> 3:34:35.120 rural communities too in adjust transition, like rural community members 3:34:35.120 --> 3:34:38.279 should actually have more say in what happens in their backyard. 3:34:38.320 --> 3:34:40.960 Forests should be able to be more engaged, um in 3:34:41.320 --> 3:34:43.720 you know, the forests that literally provide them with their 3:34:43.800 --> 3:34:46.720 drinking water, um, and you know all of the things 3:34:46.800 --> 3:34:50.080 that they need, um to survive. So we should not 3:34:50.200 --> 3:34:52.520 be you know, locking off these lands and keeping humans out. 3:34:52.600 --> 3:34:55.640 Humans have a place in these lands. I've always had 3:34:55.680 --> 3:34:57.720 a place in a role in these lands, and um, 3:34:57.800 --> 3:34:59.440 if we take leadership from the right folks, and we 3:34:59.480 --> 3:35:01.720 could totally live in a much more reasonable way than 3:35:01.920 --> 3:35:05.080 the gender revealed party path. Yeah, and like I don't 3:35:05.120 --> 3:35:07.160 know if you know this, but like being in the 3:35:07.240 --> 3:35:10.800 forest is great. It's like it is great to be 3:35:11.240 --> 3:35:15.480 surrounded by giant trees. It makes you feel awesome. The 3:35:15.560 --> 3:35:18.600 last thing I want to talk about is um you 3:35:19.040 --> 3:35:22.320 mentioned before, like getting people who live in these rural 3:35:22.400 --> 3:35:24.920 areas who used to rely on logging, getting them are 3:35:24.959 --> 3:35:26.960 involved and doing a just transition, because this is a 3:35:27.040 --> 3:35:29.200 topic that comes out that comes up on climate change 3:35:29.280 --> 3:35:32.400 like everywhere in terms of like you know, like countries 3:35:32.440 --> 3:35:34.760 that are still developing not being able to have access 3:35:34.760 --> 3:35:37.400 to the same amount of fossil fuels that countries like 3:35:37.600 --> 3:35:40.560 the States you know had when they when when they 3:35:40.640 --> 3:35:42.920 were developing, and like how is that fair? Right? This 3:35:42.959 --> 3:35:44.480 is this is like this is a very common thing 3:35:44.520 --> 3:35:47.200 of in terms of countries that are better off. UM 3:35:47.640 --> 3:35:50.280 need will you know have kind of kind of like 3:35:50.360 --> 3:35:53.640 a duty to assist assist countries that are trying to 3:35:53.720 --> 3:35:56.480 develop and trying to get better standards of living. Um, 3:35:57.520 --> 3:35:59.680 because we profited off the fossil fuels and now they 3:35:59.720 --> 3:36:02.040 won't have the same opportunity if we're trying to you know, 3:36:02.400 --> 3:36:05.760 get to a carbon neutral world. Um So, in terms 3:36:05.800 --> 3:36:07.880 of like a just just transition, this is something like 3:36:07.959 --> 3:36:10.120 you know, a COP twenty six. There was supposed to 3:36:10.160 --> 3:36:14.160 be funding for adaptation efforts in in the developing countries. 3:36:14.200 --> 3:36:16.840 Now that failed because of course it's COP twenty six. 3:36:17.040 --> 3:36:18.440 But in terms of like, in terms of like this 3:36:18.560 --> 3:36:21.280 this idea of a just transition, how do you see 3:36:21.320 --> 3:36:24.800 this like locally in the rural environment within the States 3:36:24.920 --> 3:36:27.039 and for for like these types of areas, because like, yeah, 3:36:27.040 --> 3:36:30.359 because it's similar to like coal mining, the town's similar 3:36:30.480 --> 3:36:34.280 to you know, logging towns. How how does how how 3:36:34.320 --> 3:36:36.880 do you see this working? Yeah? This is something I 3:36:36.920 --> 3:36:39.600 think about so much. Um And we actually put out 3:36:40.000 --> 3:36:42.039 a platform called a Green New Deal for our Forests 3:36:42.040 --> 3:36:44.240 in the Pacific Northwest that talks like all about what 3:36:44.320 --> 3:36:46.959 a just transition could look like for communities. But I mean, 3:36:47.080 --> 3:36:49.320 this is a dream and I think it's like a 3:36:49.400 --> 3:36:52.880 really inspiring, uh inspiring path forward because what it means 3:36:53.000 --> 3:36:55.120 is that you know, we're not saying to end logging 3:36:55.160 --> 3:36:58.000 and we're not saying that rural communities basically need to 3:36:58.080 --> 3:37:00.160 like stop existing and getting funding from lodge. And what 3:37:00.240 --> 3:37:03.360 we're saying is that rural community members, what we that 3:37:03.520 --> 3:37:06.240 nostalgic dream that are that people are playing to, we 3:37:06.280 --> 3:37:09.039 actually want to have something in that regard. We would 3:37:09.080 --> 3:37:12.680 like people to you know, engage with and interact with 3:37:12.840 --> 3:37:15.440 their local forests. Now that shouldn't look like clear cutting them, 3:37:15.800 --> 3:37:19.960 because um, that's irresponsible and that doesn't benefit local communities 3:37:20.200 --> 3:37:22.280 or you know, of the benefit of future. But that 3:37:22.400 --> 3:37:27.120 could look like restoring these young mono crop plantations into complex, 3:37:27.160 --> 3:37:30.039 healthy forests. It could be looked like bringing fire back 3:37:30.120 --> 3:37:33.320 onto the landscape with prescribed fire and cultural burning, taking 3:37:33.400 --> 3:37:36.160 lessons from indigenous folks who are doing network UM. It 3:37:36.240 --> 3:37:40.280 could look like education and recreation and so many things 3:37:40.360 --> 3:37:43.640 of like you know, hands on engagement with backyard forests 3:37:43.720 --> 3:37:46.640 that surround us UM. And you know that that could 3:37:46.680 --> 3:37:51.440 look like basically firing the freddies and uh taking this 3:37:51.680 --> 3:37:55.240 land and giving it to local communities with UM you know, 3:37:55.600 --> 3:37:59.920 the with with conservation goals, but also goals to economic 3:38:00.160 --> 3:38:03.120 support by all of those ways you know, jobs but 3:38:03.240 --> 3:38:07.880 also jobs and recreation UM economically support local communities. So 3:38:07.959 --> 3:38:10.879 basically giving the land back to the local communities who 3:38:10.920 --> 3:38:14.240 rely on them and giving them power and control um 3:38:14.400 --> 3:38:16.800 to care for them in ways that makes sense because 3:38:16.920 --> 3:38:19.440 right now wall streets caring for our forests, and really 3:38:19.560 --> 3:38:22.440 it should be us. And I think one other thing 3:38:22.480 --> 3:38:25.680 on this topic, for like how how well propagando works 3:38:26.200 --> 3:38:29.520 when I was um at the stop plane three purchase 3:38:29.600 --> 3:38:32.960 camps last summer in terms of like how do corporations 3:38:33.080 --> 3:38:35.840 get towns to start supporting these ideas and how do 3:38:35.920 --> 3:38:40.200 they like foster this hatred of environmentalism um, despite you know, 3:38:40.320 --> 3:38:42.520 these areas often being the worst impact one of the 3:38:42.600 --> 3:38:46.080 worst impacted ones by these like effort efforts. Right uh, 3:38:46.160 --> 3:38:48.880 you know, you're they're chopping down forests near where this 3:38:49.000 --> 3:38:51.879 town is. Pipeline is going next to the town. If 3:38:51.920 --> 3:38:54.240 it leaks, it's going to cause all this problem to 3:38:54.360 --> 3:38:56.840 like their water splant and stuff. But like how they do. 3:38:56.920 --> 3:38:59.840 It's like the day of the direct action to block 3:39:00.040 --> 3:39:04.360 the pipeline, Enbridge was sponsoring like a town fair in 3:39:04.480 --> 3:39:07.920 like the little downtown area, and it's like this super 3:39:08.080 --> 3:39:11.480 surreal moment of being like, oh, this is like I've 3:39:11.760 --> 3:39:15.040 read this happened in like comics before, like and this 3:39:15.200 --> 3:39:17.039 this is like this is like one of Lex Luthor's 3:39:17.120 --> 3:39:20.040 favorite things to do. Like hell, like go into this 3:39:20.160 --> 3:39:22.960 like small town. Who's gonna start like this evil you 3:39:23.000 --> 3:39:26.480 know evil like a like lab at and he'll like 3:39:26.600 --> 3:39:29.760 fund like this small town event thing and like I've 3:39:30.200 --> 3:39:33.560 seen this before in so many superhero comics. Like I've 3:39:33.600 --> 3:39:35.800 seen this trope and that I'm just like living it. 3:39:35.920 --> 3:39:38.560 You're just like watching it happen. You're like driving past 3:39:38.600 --> 3:39:42.000 the town to go block up pipeline and then you 3:39:42.120 --> 3:39:44.400 see like Enbridge with like a little stage and like 3:39:44.480 --> 3:39:46.760 a little like fair and like everyone in the towns 3:39:46.800 --> 3:39:48.680 like dancing and they're giving up like free drinks and 3:39:48.800 --> 3:39:53.560 like oh no, like this is yeah, like you're like 3:39:53.680 --> 3:39:55.560 living the things like you know, a lot of it. 3:39:55.600 --> 3:39:59.000 It's about like this idea of like rein like reinvigorating 3:39:59.080 --> 3:40:01.640 like like you know like the the like the spirit 3:40:01.680 --> 3:40:04.320 of the town and injecting injecting new life into it. 3:40:04.440 --> 3:40:05.800 So like you know, this this is like a new 3:40:05.840 --> 3:40:07.920 one for like they're they're putting a pipeline down, but 3:40:08.040 --> 3:40:09.280 like you know, it's the same thing for like you 3:40:09.360 --> 3:40:13.080 know old like old coal towns, old logging towns, and 3:40:13.160 --> 3:40:15.800 these corporations will come in you know, make the town 3:40:15.879 --> 3:40:18.199 more active again, start putting on events, make it feel 3:40:18.240 --> 3:40:20.600 like more of a place, and then that that gets 3:40:20.760 --> 3:40:24.680 so the company gets associated with positive changes. Right, so 3:40:24.800 --> 3:40:26.360 then people who live in the towns like, oh yeah, 3:40:26.400 --> 3:40:28.640 and we're just doing all these good things for my town. 3:40:29.000 --> 3:40:31.200 That must mean they actually, you know, are gonna care 3:40:31.280 --> 3:40:33.960 about us here and then help and help us out. Meanwhile, 3:40:34.040 --> 3:40:36.400 these people from all around the country are driving through 3:40:36.480 --> 3:40:38.879 and trying to block the pipeline and the police are 3:40:38.959 --> 3:40:42.400 driving everywhere. Now it's all this chaos, right, these stupid environmentalists, 3:40:42.480 --> 3:40:44.480 they don't understand how this is gonna you know, it's 3:40:44.520 --> 3:40:47.039 it's we're creating so many jobs here, which actually didn't. 3:40:47.120 --> 3:40:49.320 Enbridge outsourced most of the jobs out of state, but 3:40:49.680 --> 3:40:51.680 they lied about the type of job creation. You know, 3:40:51.760 --> 3:40:54.080 all all all all this type of stuff. And this 3:40:54.240 --> 3:40:58.080 is a very very common thing totally, and like timber 3:40:58.200 --> 3:41:02.039 unity is like delivering would to people when the when 3:41:02.120 --> 3:41:04.280 when the snow storm happened and everyone was cold and 3:41:04.320 --> 3:41:06.280 didn't have power and they were you know, going door 3:41:06.360 --> 3:41:09.920 to door with mutual aid support. Um. But that is 3:41:10.000 --> 3:41:13.400 why you know, a remember how everyone should remember how 3:41:13.600 --> 3:41:16.520 how tricks e and how dishonest these folks are, but 3:41:16.640 --> 3:41:19.600 also be why um, those of us who want to 3:41:19.640 --> 3:41:22.119 see a different way need to be doing mutual aid too, 3:41:22.560 --> 3:41:24.720 Like we actually need to be out there in our 3:41:24.800 --> 3:41:27.440 communities and making friends and building trust and not just 3:41:27.560 --> 3:41:30.200 showing up to function up when it's time to function up. 3:41:30.480 --> 3:41:32.080 And I think that kind of like circles back to 3:41:32.160 --> 3:41:34.360 the point we talked about earlier, which is like building 3:41:34.400 --> 3:41:37.000 relationships with people on the front lines. Um. Looks like 3:41:37.120 --> 3:41:39.280 so much more than just like the defense of a 3:41:39.360 --> 3:41:41.480 bad thing in their backyards. It looks like, you know, 3:41:41.600 --> 3:41:44.960 mutual aid because the industry is doing it, um, and 3:41:45.200 --> 3:41:49.280 they're they're good at it, and we need to be better. Um. 3:41:49.400 --> 3:41:51.840 I think that wrops up for us today. What one 3:41:51.840 --> 3:41:54.440 thing I want, like, what what is going to happen 3:41:54.600 --> 3:41:58.039 going forward now after this, after this legal victory. What's 3:41:58.120 --> 3:42:00.160 kind of just to just just just just as so 3:42:00.200 --> 3:42:02.080 people know, like what is like the next steps that 3:42:02.160 --> 3:42:03.840 are going to be taken on the legal process that 3:42:03.840 --> 3:42:07.120 will kind of determine what what happens um with like 3:42:07.240 --> 3:42:09.160 you know, direct actions and going to see the forest 3:42:09.240 --> 3:42:13.039 in like in the future. Yeah, Um, well, basically we're 3:42:13.040 --> 3:42:16.640 waiting um for a date for this court case. UM. 3:42:16.760 --> 3:42:19.080 And so that will hopefully be scheduled if it if 3:42:19.080 --> 3:42:21.480 it ends up having to go through, which it might not. UM. 3:42:21.600 --> 3:42:23.720 Obviously there's going to be an effort made on behalf 3:42:23.800 --> 3:42:27.120 of lawyers UM to try and get the Forest Service 3:42:27.200 --> 3:42:30.400 to just stop, to just drop this shenanigan UM and 3:42:30.520 --> 3:42:33.880 walk away UM while they're you know where they're at, UM, 3:42:33.920 --> 3:42:35.840 because we we do think we have a really strong 3:42:35.920 --> 3:42:37.880 case UM that will win in court if it goes 3:42:37.959 --> 3:42:40.840 to court. So that's kind of like the legal avenue UM. 3:42:41.000 --> 3:42:43.119 Same story as what I said with the last time 3:42:43.160 --> 3:42:46.760 we talked. You know, if if logging is going to 3:42:46.840 --> 3:42:50.200 move forward in that area, whether that be because UM 3:42:50.400 --> 3:42:53.200 it happens in the future or because somehow this legal 3:42:53.280 --> 3:42:56.200 case is lost, direct action will happen. People will be 3:42:56.320 --> 3:42:58.800 out there in the way of logging. There's no way 3:42:58.920 --> 3:43:00.520 people are going to let that go down in the 3:43:00.560 --> 3:43:02.960 Brighton Bush community. UM. So right now we're kind of 3:43:03.080 --> 3:43:05.840 in a waiting game. We're watching and waiting UM. But 3:43:06.320 --> 3:43:08.360 you know, I hope the Forest Service knows now that 3:43:08.440 --> 3:43:10.440 they can't just get get away with stuff like this. 3:43:10.640 --> 3:43:14.039 People are watching. People are going to file public records request. 3:43:14.120 --> 3:43:17.360 We're documenting this and um, hopefully you know, we won't 3:43:17.400 --> 3:43:19.200 be seeing more of this, but because we live in 3:43:19.240 --> 3:43:21.360 the real world, the real sad world, we will be 3:43:21.440 --> 3:43:24.000 seeing more of this, and so, um, you know, we'll 3:43:24.000 --> 3:43:25.840 be out there again when the next forest is on 3:43:25.879 --> 3:43:31.120 the chopping block, which is probably going to be you know, today, tomorrow. Yeah, 3:43:31.200 --> 3:43:33.920 it's kind of always the thing. Um. Well, thank thank 3:43:33.920 --> 3:43:35.440 you so much for coming on to talk about this 3:43:35.640 --> 3:43:40.600 and the uh rare rare good news episode of Hey, 3:43:40.720 --> 3:43:46.600 something good happening. Thank you. In any other sources people 3:43:46.640 --> 3:43:49.360 can kind of follow along on the fight that the 3:43:49.640 --> 3:43:53.879 people can find online. Yeah, make sure to follow Cascadia 3:43:53.920 --> 3:43:56.520 Forest Offenders and Portland Rising tide Um, who will be 3:43:56.680 --> 3:43:59.720 definitely tracking and posting. You can also follow Cascadia Wildlands, 3:43:59.760 --> 3:44:03.000 who um was the lead nonprofit on the lawsuit and 3:44:03.320 --> 3:44:06.640 they've been posting about it too. Great. All right, thanks 3:44:06.680 --> 3:44:23.039 everybody for listening. Uh go see a tree, Touch Tree. Hey, 3:44:23.160 --> 3:44:26.240 We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from 3:44:26.280 --> 3:44:29.320 now until the heat death of the universe. It could happen. 3:44:29.360 --> 3:44:31.680 Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For more 3:44:31.720 --> 3:44:34.520 podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone 3:44:34.560 --> 3:44:36.360 media dot com, or check us out on the I 3:44:36.480 --> 3:44:39.720 Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 3:44:40.360 --> 3:44:42.440 You can find sources for it could happen here, updated 3:44:42.520 --> 3:44:45.959 monthly at cool zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks 3:44:46.040 --> 3:44:58.120 for listening, Mama. What does the chicken say? What the draft? 3:44:58.440 --> 3:45:02.000 Draft really do? Rat draw? You're not gonna get it 3:45:02.080 --> 3:45:04.119 all right. Just make sure you know the big stuff, 3:45:04.200 --> 3:45:06.200 like making sure your kids are buckled correctly in the 3:45:06.320 --> 3:45:09.240 right seat for their agent's eyes. Get it right visits 3:45:09.520 --> 3:45:13.440 n h s A dot gov slash the Right Seat 3:45:13.720 --> 3:45:16.439 run to you by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration 3:45:16.480 --> 3:45:19.600 and the AD Council. Make sure to check out Drink Champs, 3:45:19.640 --> 3:45:23.000 your number one music podcast on the Black Effect Podcast Network. 3:45:23.240 --> 3:45:24.960 Hosts n O r E and d J E f 3:45:25.120 --> 3:45:28.119 N sat down with artists and icon Yea, which Vulture 3:45:28.200 --> 3:45:32.280 called one of most significant interviews. I literally had to 3:45:32.400 --> 3:45:34.440 go like Danos and I don't want to have to 3:45:34.480 --> 3:45:36.520 be the villain. But when I went and did the 3:45:36.600 --> 3:45:40.760 Donda thing, they returned and anybody had to sit back 3:45:40.879 --> 3:45:44.320 and watch the real leader. Check out Drink Champs conversation 3:45:44.400 --> 3:45:47.120 with Yea and many more legendary artists, each and every 3:45:47.200 --> 3:45:50.040 Friday on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or 3:45:50.040 --> 3:45:54.480 where ever you listen to your favorite shows. What Girls 3:45:54.520 --> 3:45:59.320 in the Forest, our imagination and our family bonds the 3:45:59.440 --> 3:46:02.560 forest closer than you think. Find a forest near you 3:46:02.800 --> 3:46:05.360 and discover the forest dot org brought to you by 3:46:05.400 --> 3:46:08.039 the United States Forest Service and the AD Council