1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:04,360 Speaker 1: Once the last time you took a time out. I'm 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: Ev Rodsky, author of the New York Times bestseller fair 3 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:10,360 Speaker 1: Play and Find Your Unicorn Space, activists on the gender 4 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: division of labor, attorney and family mediator. And I'm doctor 5 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:17,800 Speaker 1: Addina Rukar, a Harvard physician and medical correspondent with an 6 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:21,760 Speaker 1: expertise in the science of stress, resilience, mental health, and burnout. 7 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:24,960 Speaker 1: We're so excited to share our podcast, time Out, a 8 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Podcasts and Hello Sunshine, repealing back 9 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: the layers around why society makes it so easy to 10 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 1: guard men's time like it's diamonds and treat women's time 11 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: like it's infinite, like sand. And so, whether you're partnered 12 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 1: with or without children, or in a career where you 13 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:43,879 Speaker 1: want more boundaries, this is the place for you for 14 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: people of all family structures. So take this time out 15 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 1: with us to learn, get inspired, and most importantly, reclaim 16 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: your time. Listen to Time Out, a fair Play podcast 17 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or We're 18 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: ever you get your podcasts. Conquer your New Year's resolutions 19 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,759 Speaker 1: with the Before Breakfast podcast, and each bite sized daily episode, 20 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:11,559 Speaker 1: you'll learn how to make the most of your time 21 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:14,039 Speaker 1: with practical tools to help you feel less busy and 22 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: get more done. Listen to Before Breakfast on the i 23 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app for wherever you get your podcasts. The 24 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: Gangster Chronicles podcast is a weekly conversation that revolves around 25 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 1: the underworld and criminals and entertainers to victims's crime and 26 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: law enforcement. We cover all facets of the game. Gainst 27 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 1: The Chronicles podcast doesn't glorify, promotilictit of activities. We just 28 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 1: discussed the ramifications and repercussions of these activities because at 29 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: the wall, if you played gamester games, you are ultimately 30 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 1: rewarded with Gainster prizes. Our Heart Radios number one for podcasts, 31 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: but don't take our award for it. Find Against the 32 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 1: Chronicles podcast and my Heart Radio app or wherever you 33 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 1: get your podcast. Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I 34 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: wanted to let you know this is a compiletion episode. 35 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: Every episode of the week that just happened is here 36 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for 37 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 1: you to listen to in a long stretch if you want. 38 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 39 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 40 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. Welcome to it could happen 41 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:24,639 Speaker 1: here a podcast about things falling apart, how they came 42 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:27,639 Speaker 1: to be that way. I'm your host, Christopher Wong, and 43 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:31,519 Speaker 1: today we're doing part three of our series of Neoliberalism. 44 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:33,519 Speaker 1: We're gonna start today with one of the most famous 45 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 1: episodes in history of neoliberalism, September eleventh coup against Salvator 46 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: Allende was a democratic socialist of a type that has 47 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 1: broadly ceased to exist today. A committed Marxist to believe 48 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:48,959 Speaker 1: that a class of society could be created by means 49 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: of electoral democracy, he embarked on a campaign drastically more 50 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: radical than any modern socialist politician has done, more than 51 00:02:56,520 --> 00:03:00,080 Speaker 1: dream of mass nationalizations, in an attempt to develop a 52 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 1: technical system that would allow the government to democratically plan 53 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: as much of the economy as humanly possible. In part, 54 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:10,359 Speaker 1: his hand was forced by Chile's workers, who had embarked 55 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: on their own unsancitioned campaign of takeovers of minds and factories, 56 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:16,519 Speaker 1: which I Andy disapproved of and now sought to bring 57 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 1: under the national planning scheme. To do this, he brought 58 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: in British cybernetics theorist Stanford Beer, who embarked on an 59 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 1: operation called Project Cybersen to collect and coordinate information between 60 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 1: various factories and allow democratic planning at the ground level 61 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: in a way that would allow stantaneous reaction to crises 62 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 1: and immediate changes in production levels and conditions inside the 63 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: factories themselves to deal with them. All End for all 64 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: of s Barker's credentials was fiercely critical of the bureaucratization 65 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: of the U. S s R, and, in particular in 66 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: the economic sphere, the way its planning systems were essentially 67 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: unable to react to local changes quickly in a context 68 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: where plans were only created every five years. Cybersen would 69 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: solve these problems by workers participle patient at the factory 70 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 1: level and constant updated data flows to the planning office. 71 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: As the project went on, Beer became progressively more radical. 72 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 1: Strike by right wing truck workers backed by capitalists in 73 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 1: the CIA in nineteen two threatened to grind the nation 74 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:20,159 Speaker 1: to a halt. In response, workers formed enormous coodonas industrialities 75 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: or industrial belts to help self organized production and bypass 76 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 1: the striking right wing workers in coordination with the Andia's 77 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:29,720 Speaker 1: government and a new cybers in control room. They were 78 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 1: able to outmaneuver the strike and maintain production and distribution 79 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 1: and nearly full capacity by tracking where goods were going 80 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:39,040 Speaker 1: and where they needed to go along what roots. Beer 81 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 1: rapidly became convinced that quote the basic answer of cybernetics. 82 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 1: The question of how the system should be organized, is 83 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 1: that it ought to organize itself, in essence, that cybersen 84 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 1: should be used to eliminate the bureaucracy in the state 85 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 1: entirely and allow workers to directly organize production themselves. Now, 86 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: Cybersen in theory is what the neillerbles claim, at least 87 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,720 Speaker 1: in public, to want, is an anti bureaucratic system that 88 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: uses the centralized control over the means of production to 89 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,600 Speaker 1: combat totalitarianism and ensure that the state respects individual rights 90 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 1: and liberties. In fact, as if Vengi Monuos put it, 91 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:17,039 Speaker 1: Pierre and Hayek knew each other. As Beer noted in 92 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 1: his diary, Hayek even complimented him on his vision for 93 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 1: the cybernetic factory after Beer presented at a conference in 94 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:26,919 Speaker 1: the nineteen sixty in Illinois. So, naturally, when the system 95 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 1: was actually implemented, at least in part Chile. The new 96 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: liberal position was that every single person involved in the 97 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 1: entire economic exparment needed to be killed. Chile was put 98 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 1: under economic blockade by the US and multinational corporations with 99 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: full neilerable support, an ironic position given Milton Friedman, Hayek 100 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,799 Speaker 1: and Rope case pure and absolute opposition to economic blockades 101 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 1: of South Africa Rhodesia to its eternal shame. The a 102 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: f L c i O's American Institute for Free Labor 103 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: Development provided training and funds to the right wing unions 104 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,359 Speaker 1: that opposed the leftist government and others across Latin America. 105 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:02,840 Speaker 1: In Chile, working directly with the CIA, the a f 106 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:05,040 Speaker 1: L c i OS organizations to train the right wing 107 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 1: truckers whose nineteen seventy two strike we've already discussed and 108 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 1: whose nineteen seventy three strike would pave the way for 109 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 1: Pinochet's coup. In many cases, organized labor, especially in the US, 110 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 1: but also in places like Italy, spent the seventies battling 111 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 1: their own left flank in defensive capital. Their reward for 112 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 1: their service as was capital turning around and dutting them 113 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: like a fish in the eighties, Allen two fought a 114 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 1: series of battles with this left flank, disarming the mass 115 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 1: workers assemblies that had formed in nineteen seventy two and 116 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: could have saved him from the coup. The results was 117 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: the Other nine eleven, on which day in nineteen seventy three, 118 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: the military overthrew Allende and a coup, and Allende shot 119 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: himself in the presidential palace. The man who would emerge 120 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 1: on the top of the power struggle in the military 121 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: at the end of the coup was one Augusto Pinochet. Now. 122 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: Pinochet from the beginning had the support of Chile's own 123 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 1: domestic neo liberals, of which they were a fairly large number. 124 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 1: Upon taking power, he carried out what would become the 125 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:03,719 Speaker 1: standard neo liberal program, returning nationalized industries to the capitalists, 126 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: eliminating price controls, and increasing interest rates, But full scale 127 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 1: neoliberalism didn't come immediately. Inflation, which Pinochet had nominally in 128 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: large part taken power to control, continued unabated, and in 129 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,239 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy four Milton Friedman arrived in Chile to argue 130 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: for neoliberal shock therapy, but it wasn't until Pinochet's desperation 131 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: from money drove him to the I m F that 132 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 1: he would fully embrace neoliberalism. Most of the world had 133 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 1: refused to do business with new dictatorial regime, with the 134 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:35,239 Speaker 1: exception of the U S and oddly enough Mao's China, 135 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 1: which poured money into the regime and Pinochet's personal pockets. 136 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 1: But that money was insufficient, and the I m F 137 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: was the only remaining body who would actually lend money 138 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: to Pinochet without any requirements on improving Chile's At this 139 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: point of Bismo human rights record, much of the full 140 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: neoliberal turn that hit Chile in ninety five came from 141 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 1: demands from the I m F itself, who demanded Conian 142 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 1: measures to control inflay. Here, Pinochet was aided by the 143 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: supporter of the neoliberals, whose legitimacy and academic standing allowed 144 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 1: them to negotiate and secure favor from the I m F, 145 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: which they had already begun to infiltrate. At this point, 146 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: the infamous Chicago Boys, economist trains at the University of 147 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 1: Chicago by Milton Freeman, were put in charge of the economy. 148 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: University of Chicago trained economist Sergio di Castro, known as 149 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 1: the Pinochet of the Economy was put in charge of 150 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:28,559 Speaker 1: the Ministry of Economics. To Castro, privatized an enormous portion 151 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:32,559 Speaker 1: of the remaining profitable state industries, eliminated tariffs and implemented 152 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 1: free trade policies, deregulated the finance sector, and eliminated any 153 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 1: remaining price controls. Chicago Boys would go on to do 154 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,199 Speaker 1: things like privatizing the entire Chilean pension system with the 155 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:45,079 Speaker 1: exception of the military, which is a good education of 156 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 1: any as to what the regime thought the actual effects 157 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: of privatization would be. In ninety eight, Pinochet declared something 158 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 1: called the Seven Modernizations, with quote reforms in labor, education, health, 159 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:04,199 Speaker 1: regional decentralization, agriculture, and justice policy. The goal of these 160 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: reforms was to introduce the market into literally every aspect 161 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 1: of society. Now in episode one, I've very briefly mentioned 162 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 1: the Virginia School as one of the major schools of 163 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: deal liberalism. The Virginia School the people behind public choice theory. 164 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: Their thing is essentially taking the absolutely absurd set of 165 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: beliefs Chicago School holds about people. Humans are all knowing, rational, 166 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: calculating gods, optimizing their behavior to get the most of 167 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 1: every single interaction to maximize the utility, and then applying 168 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 1: it to political science and then literally every other field. 169 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 1: If you've ever heard someone say there's no rational reason 170 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: to vote, because if you're a rational, self interested person, 171 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 1: the cost of voting outwighs that benefit because your vote 172 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: only matters if a deciding one. Therefore, it's against your 173 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 1: interest to vote. That's the Virginia School and their public 174 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 1: choice theory bullshit at work. Pinochet's Seven Modernizations was an 175 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: application of Virginia School doctrine to the entire Chilean state 176 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 1: and as much as the siety he is humanly possible, 177 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:04,079 Speaker 1: with the goal of transforming it into a market. I'm 178 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: going to read a section from the Road to Mount 179 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 1: Pelion describing Virginia School titan James M. Buchanan's work. Quote 180 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: Ineffectual consequences in the political market place were blamed solely 181 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: on the fallacies of political decision making. We can summarize 182 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 1: public choice as a theory of government failure end quote. 183 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 1: Buchanan delivered a highly abstract paper titled limited or Untitled 184 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 1: Democracy to the Montpellion Society in Vina del Mar in Chile, 185 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 1: which some constructed as a critique of the host country's 186 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 1: mobilization for action history. Buchanan stated that if limited democracy 187 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: was a polity predisposed to disable a political market that 188 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: would otherwise promote the most efficient allocation of resources, the 189 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 1: only meaningful task of the government would be to deprive 190 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:53,439 Speaker 1: the polity of its ability to do so. Public choice 191 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: theory thus sought to limit democracy and deep politicize the 192 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: state in order to enable unconstrained market forces to guide 193 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 1: human into action. Since the Pinochet regime was committed to 194 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: using its governmental powers in precisely this manner, Buchanan's paper 195 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: provided theoretical support for the regime, even if it did 196 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 1: not openly endorsed the authoritarian rule. Buchanan, of course, would 197 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:17,559 Speaker 1: spend a bunch of time doing lectures in Chile throughout 198 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: Pinochet's icatorship, but he was not that regime's most vociferous 199 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: neoliberal supporter. That award goes to Frederick Hyak Chris Hiek 200 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 1: when asked about Chile, which had been to ninety eight 201 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: and that blessed with his approval, aedicatorship can restrict itself 202 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 1: in a educatorship which deliberately is restricting itself can be 203 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: more liberal in its politics than a democratic assembly, which 204 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 1: has due limits. Chile's nineteen eighty constitution was drafted in 205 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:44,559 Speaker 1: part by one of Hiak's friends. He has wrote Road 206 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:48,199 Speaker 1: Abount Pelion Again. The constitution was not only named after 207 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: hias book The Constitution of Liberty, but also incorporated significant 208 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 1: elements of hias thinking. Above all, the Constitution placed a 209 00:11:56,040 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: strong emphasis on a neoliberal understanding of freedom. Guzman version 210 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 1: of freedom is intrinsically connected to private property, free enterprise, 211 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 1: and individual rights. Individual freedom, in his interpretation, can only 212 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 1: evolve in a radical market order. The Constitution was dedicated 213 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 1: to guarantee such an order without constraining any economic activities. 214 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 1: In order to protect free market conditions and individual freedoms 215 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 1: against totalitarian attacks or democratic interventions, the Constitution stipulated a 216 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:28,599 Speaker 1: necessity of a strong central state authority to guarantee the 217 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 1: established rule of law, and thus, above all else is 218 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 1: hampered in the application of discretionary government power. Exempted were 219 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 1: measures to uphold the status quo, inasmuch as Goose Bond 220 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: aggressively supported continuing the state of emergency, which legalized the 221 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 1: use of whatever discretionary powers were deemed necessary. Quial opposition 222 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: that Folks is a high achi in constitution used the 223 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,319 Speaker 1: state to murder any one wants democracy or God help them, 224 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 1: wants to control the production their forced to serve every day. 225 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: Chile is near liberals voltron By combinding the power of 226 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 1: all four major schools of neoliberalism Chicago School Monetary and 227 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: Economic policy, Austrian School Constitutional order order, liberal reliance on 228 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 1: the international bureaucracy and legal institutions like the I m 229 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: F in order to promote a market economy, and Virginia 230 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 1: School public choice theory running the state, you get a neoliberal, 231 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 1: right wing military dictatorship. Now most conventional accounts of neoliberalism 232 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 1: will move from Chile to Reagan and Thatcher and next 233 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 1: episode will cover the neoliberal kind of revolution in the 234 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 1: angle sphere. But focusing on purely national events gives a 235 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 1: skewed perception of how neoliberalism actually spreads, and in order 236 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 1: to correct that, we're going to look at Venezuela. I'm 237 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 1: going to be drawing heavily here from the work of 238 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 1: the legendary Venezuelan anthropologist Fernando core and Neil in his 239 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 1: book The Magical State, which I highly recommend as one 240 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 1: of the best things that are written about oil and 241 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 1: the Venezuelan state, so readers be warned. Chapter one is 242 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 1: an absolute slow dog that, on the one hand, is 243 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: one of the most interesting explanations of what oiler rents 244 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 1: are have ever encountered, but also features coroneal inventing a 245 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: new trielectic and then stubbornly refusing to explain what it 246 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 1: is or literally anything about how it works. So read 247 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:18,239 Speaker 1: the Magical State skip chapter one now. The guiding principles 248 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 1: of the new mass capitalists, democratic parties and posted katorship. 249 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 1: Venezuela since the nineties sixties had been developing sovereignty by 250 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: economic independence. The keystone of this project was an attempt 251 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 1: to use the power of the state in new oil 252 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: rents to develop an automotive industry. The project has sort 253 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 1: of stalled out from its origins in the sixties until 254 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 1: the rise of the G seventy seven Opeque Alliance in 255 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 1: ninet nineteen seventy four that we discussed last episode. In 256 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy five, Venezuela's Assembly passed a law that granted 257 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 1: the president's special powers to speed up the developments of 258 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: the auto industry. Corn the auto industry in Venezuela. Corneal 259 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: described it thus quote, The central goal was to have 260 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: the vehicle value, including the drive train, produced locally. By 261 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty five. Major components would be produced by enterprises 262 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: having at least fifty one percent of their capital from 263 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: local private sources. Existing foreign companies would have to become 264 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: mixed or national firms in accord within day impact regulations 265 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 1: if they wanted to benefit from the common market. Now, 266 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 1: this plan is what's called industrial import substitution. Developing countries 267 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: would attempt to develop industries, in this case auto manufacturers 268 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: inside of a country to produce cars for internal consumption 269 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 1: instead of importing them from other countries. The other key 270 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 1: of this plan is the end Impact, an association of Bolivia, Columbia, Ecuador, 271 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 1: Peru and Chile that was collaborating to develop a regional 272 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: industrial economy, that we use local resources to build a 273 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 1: local industrial economy producing industrial goods made entirely inside of 274 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 1: the countries themselves from their resources. Now, Venezuela joins the 275 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 1: pack in nineteen seventy three and Pinochet notably leaves in 276 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 1: ninety seven. The key sticking points in this joint and 277 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 1: day impact Venezuela attempt to build an auto industry was 278 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: that Venezuela needed technology held by multinational corporations in order 279 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: to actually produce the vehicles. Multinational car companies were willing 280 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 1: to go ahead with the project to build cars in 281 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 1: Venezuela in the short term because they were hurting from 282 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: the oil shock and thus were willing to help national 283 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 1: plans develop cars as long as they could use the 284 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: parts to build their own cars with parts source from 285 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: around the world. And this is where the neoliberal defensive 286 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 1: intellectual property rights becomes extremely important, because the companies who 287 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 1: held the patents for the drive trains essentially had a 288 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: technological strangleholder for car development. Now, Venezuela conducted an extensive 289 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 1: bidding process for companies to make cars in Venezuela, but 290 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: the car companies essentially sabotaged it by submitting designs that 291 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 1: failed specs. The result was a kind of political war 292 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 1: inside Venezuela and particularly inside the Venezuelan ruling class, between 293 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 1: national developments and international profits. The Venezuelan developmentalists needed a breakthrough. 294 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: What they needed, in essence, was new international economic order 295 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:07,639 Speaker 1: and its corporate regulations. Debt relief and technology transfers. Without them, 296 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 1: even a third World country like Venezuela, flush with oil 297 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 1: money was incapable of developing an industrial economy. But the 298 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: new international economic order never came. All the G seven 299 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: had to do in order to stop it was stall 300 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 1: the G seventy seven out until commodity power faded. The 301 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 1: G seventy seven had to fundamentally change the structure of 302 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 1: the economy in order to allow them to industrialize before 303 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 1: the sort of damocles hanging over all their heads the 304 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: mounting Third World debt fell and decapitated them. The G 305 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: seven strategy to outlast the seventy seven was to pull 306 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 1: the various factions in the seventy seven apart, in particular 307 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 1: pulling the moderate governments away from the radical wing OPEC 308 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 1: and the African Socialists. They attacked OPEC by using Saudi 309 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 1: Arabia to undermine its unity, and attempted to peel the 310 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 1: so called less developed countries away from their alliance with 311 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 1: OPEC with a promise of aid to patch up the 312 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 1: damage dealt by increased prices. Neither worked incredibly well, but 313 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: when combined with the US essentially shutting the U N 314 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,200 Speaker 1: down by refusing to let any business get done, refusing 315 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 1: to vote for or even vetoing routine matters. The stalling worked, 316 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:18,680 Speaker 1: no new international economic order was forthcoming. Instead, the world 317 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 1: would get neoliberalism. Neoliberalism arrived on the world stage in 318 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 1: the form of the Vulcar Shock. In nineteen seventy nine, 319 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: Jimmy Carter appointed Paul Vulcar as the Chairman of the 320 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 1: Federal Reserve for the broad mandate to do whatever he 321 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: wanted to reduce inflation. Vulcar had become a disciple of monitorism, 322 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,399 Speaker 1: a Freedman Night Chicago School belief about the role of 323 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 1: the money supply in the economy, considered to be absolutely 324 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: crank even by modern neoliberals. His solution, which became known 325 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 1: as the Vulcar Shock, was to increase interest rate. This 326 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 1: essentially blew a crater in the American economy and immediately 327 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: sent it into recession. And we'll get to Vulcar at 328 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: Reagan's efforts to destroy American labor in the next episode. 329 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: But the damage to the Third World was even worse. 330 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 1: G seventy seven, governments had for decades taking on adjustable 331 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 1: rate loans pegged to something called the libor rate. When 332 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 1: they took the loans out, interest rates were virtually negative, 333 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 1: but when the Vulgar shock hit, the skyrocketed. Now, as 334 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 1: we talked about the last episode, a major part of 335 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 1: the crisis of the seventies was enormous piles of oil money, 336 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 1: mostly from the Gulf States, floating around that nobody could 337 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:25,879 Speaker 1: actually get returns on because of declining manufacturing profit rates. 338 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 1: This money wound up flowing back into the American finance system. 339 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: When capital controls are lifted nineteen seventy five, the banks 340 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 1: through the money at loans in the Third World. Now, 341 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 1: some of that money had been put into industrial development 342 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: that had yet to pay off. Some of the money 343 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,920 Speaker 1: had simply been put directly into dictator's bank accounts. But 344 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:45,199 Speaker 1: the bank's essentially didn't care if the loans they were 345 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:47,920 Speaker 1: making had little to no chance of being repaid without 346 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 1: some kind of structure reformed. Because in envy, control of 347 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:53,919 Speaker 1: the I m F fell to an arch neo liberal 348 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,679 Speaker 1: name Jacquis de la Rossier. I really don't know if 349 00:19:57,680 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 1: that's how he pronounce his name, but he is evil. 350 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:03,120 Speaker 1: So neo liberals further took control of the World Bank 351 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: in nine from the I M f and the World Bank. 352 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: A secession of neo liberals enshrined the key principle of 353 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 1: the new neoliberal order. Debtors must always pay back their debts. 354 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: Creditors would no longer assume risk for their loans. Instead, 355 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: loans would be repaid at gunpoint. This was no mere 356 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 1: rhetorical slogan, as the G seventy seven imploded as a 357 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 1: political body under the weight of hundreds of billions of 358 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 1: dollars of debt now with interest. Thomas Sankara, the socialist 359 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:33,200 Speaker 1: president of Burkina Fosso, attempted to rally its remains into 360 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: collectively negotiate debt relief. Sakara was promptly shot by a 361 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: former ally who accused him of threatening Burkina Fossil's relationship 362 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 1: with France. With all resistance slaughtered, entire nations were reduced 363 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 1: to debt servicing machines, as tax dollars were directed from health, education, 364 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: and social security programs into the coffers of international banks, 365 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: which used the newly neo liberal controlled International Monetary Fund 366 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:59,440 Speaker 1: as their enforcer. The anthropologist David Graeber described the consequence 367 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 1: of one such I m F austerity program in debt 368 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: the first five thousand years quote. For almost two years 369 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: I had lived in the highlands of Madagascar. Shortly before 370 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,199 Speaker 1: I arrived, there had been an outbreak of malaria. It 371 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 1: was a particularly virulent outbreak because malaria had been wiped 372 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 1: out in Highlight Madagascar many years before, so that after 373 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 1: a couple of generations, most people had lost their immunity. 374 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: The problem was it took money to maintain those mosquito 375 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:25,879 Speaker 1: radication programs, since there had to be periodic tests to 376 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: make sure mosquitoes weren't starting to breed again, and spraying 377 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 1: campaigns if it was discovered that they were not a 378 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:35,360 Speaker 1: lot of money. But owing to IMF and post austerity programs, 379 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 1: the government had to cut the monitoring program. Ten thousand 380 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,399 Speaker 1: people died. I met young mothers grieving for lost children. 381 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 1: One might think it would be hard to make a 382 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 1: case that the loss of ten thou human lives is 383 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 1: really justified in order to ensure that City Bank wouldn't 384 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:51,680 Speaker 1: have to cut his losses on one irresponsible loan that 385 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:55,720 Speaker 1: wasn't particularly important to its balance sheet anyways. Following the 386 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: old old or liberal dream of a legal framework to 387 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 1: ensure neoliberal market economies, the new generation of neoliberals used 388 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 1: the I m F, World Bank and other bureacratic institutions 389 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: to act as dead enforcers and the imposed neoliberal policies 390 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 1: from above, without anything so petty as democracy interfering with it. 391 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 1: In fact, one of the first neo liberal structural adjustments, 392 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 1: one of a bewildering new array of terms for I 393 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: m F and force austerity programs, was implemented by the 394 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 1: Jamaican socialist Michael Manly in nineteen seventy seven, which in 395 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,680 Speaker 1: a single year wiped out every gain in education in 396 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 1: public health that Madly had spent his first term building up. 397 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:35,919 Speaker 1: Similar faith would befall health, education, and justice programs across 398 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:41,160 Speaker 1: the world. The death toll remains unknown. Venezuela would fall 399 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 1: victim to a similar fate. Without the new international Economic order, 400 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:50,400 Speaker 1: Venezuela's industrial policy imploded as post Volcra shock government debt 401 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 1: skyrocketed in the nineteen eighties, the government began to impose 402 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:58,440 Speaker 1: ims structural adjustments. Carlos Andres Perez, the man who led 403 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 1: the industrial push in the Nite and seven ins, was 404 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:03,159 Speaker 1: elected a second time in nineteen eighty nine, running a 405 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:07,880 Speaker 1: campaign that I've seen euphemistically described as quote against liberalization policy. 406 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 1: It was somewhat more extreme than that, featuring lines such 407 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 1: as calling the I m F quote a bomb that 408 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: only kills people. But Perez was negotiating with the I 409 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 1: m F behind the scenes and imposed even harsher I 410 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 1: m F Asteria measures upon winning the election, leading to 411 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 1: a mass uprising in nineteen eighty nine that was suppressed 412 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 1: in a bath of blood, with hundreds killed by the army. 413 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 1: But even more structural adjustments were imposed after Perez was 414 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 1: deposed for corruption n implemented ironically by the founder of 415 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 1: the Movement towards Socialism, Teodoro Petkof, the head of Venezuela's 416 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 1: planning agency in nineteen ninety six. All of Venezuela's economic 417 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 1: crisis from the nineteen eighties until now stem from the 418 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 1: failures of nineteen seventies industrialization. Without any kind of industrial economy, 419 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 1: even the socialists that took power in the nine A 420 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 1: national level were reduced to shuffling oil and surround and 421 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,159 Speaker 1: with the market economy still in place, the economy is 422 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: simply imploded again when the royal prices fell. This is 423 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 1: how neoliberalism comes to most countries not as policies implemented 424 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 1: by anything even remotely resembling the will of the people, 425 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 1: but enforced by the international economic system itself and the 426 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,440 Speaker 1: bureaucrats the I m F, the World Bank, and the 427 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: World Trade Organization. It is imposed by enormous states at gunpoints, 428 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: constituted by the mass looting of the population in order 429 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: to pay corporate debt. Masters new liberals have effectively achieved 430 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,919 Speaker 1: their goal and transcendent democratic politics entirely from their purchase 431 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 1: in the international bureaucracy. They can dictate policy to even 432 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 1: hostile leaders. But tomorrow we'll see what happens when they 433 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 1: take power domestically. As we would conclude our Neoliberalism series 434 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,719 Speaker 1: with a man rotting in Hell with Paul Walker Ronald 435 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: Reagan when P. T. Barnum's Great American Museum burned to 436 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 1: the ground and eighteen six five what rose from its 437 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 1: ashes would change the world. Welcome to Grim and Mild 438 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: presents an ongoing journey into the strange, the unusual, and 439 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,159 Speaker 1: the fascinating. For our inaugural season, we'll be giving you 440 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:17,119 Speaker 1: a backstage tour of the always complex and often misunderstood 441 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 1: cultural artifact that is the American side show, So come 442 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,639 Speaker 1: along as we visit the shadowy corners of the stage 443 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 1: and learn about the people who were at the center 444 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 1: of it all in a place where spectacle was king. 445 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,200 Speaker 1: We will soon discover there's always more to the story 446 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 1: than meets the eye. So step right up and get 447 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 1: in line. Listen to Grim and Mile Presents now on 448 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 449 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 1: listen to podcasts. Learn more over at Grim and Mild 450 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:53,120 Speaker 1: dot com Slash Presents. I'm Jake Calbern, host of deep Cover. 451 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 1: Our new season is about a lawyer who helped the 452 00:25:55,960 --> 00:26:00,879 Speaker 1: mob run Chicago. We control the courts, We controlled absolutely everything. 453 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,880 Speaker 1: He brobed judges and even helped a hit man walk free, 454 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,199 Speaker 1: until one day when he started talking with the FBI 455 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: and promised that he could take the mob down. I've 456 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 1: spent the past year trying to figure out why he 457 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,400 Speaker 1: flipped and what he was really after. From my perspective, 458 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 1: Bob was too good to be true. There's got to 459 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,400 Speaker 1: be something wrong with this. I wouldn't trust that guy. 460 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,680 Speaker 1: He looks like a little scum, big liar, stool pidgeon. 461 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 1: He looked like what he was or at I can 462 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 1: say with all certainty. I think he's a hero because 463 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:32,159 Speaker 1: he didn't have to do what he did, and he 464 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,680 Speaker 1: did it anyway. The moment I put the wire around 465 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,879 Speaker 1: the first time, my life was over. If it ever 466 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 1: got out, they would kill me in a heartbeat. Listen 467 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 1: to deep Cover on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 468 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:50,359 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Colleen with joined 469 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,159 Speaker 1: me the host of Eating Will Broke podcast. While I 470 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: Eat a meal created by self made entrepreneurs, influencers and 471 00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 1: celebrities over a meal they once ate when they were broke. 472 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,120 Speaker 1: Today I have the lovely aj Crimson, the official Princess 473 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 1: of compon, Asia Kidning and Assia. This is the professor. 474 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 1: We're here on Eating While Broke and today I'm gonna 475 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: break down my meal that got me through a time 476 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 1: when I was broken. Listen to Eating While Broke on 477 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, on Apple podcast or wherever 478 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:28,160 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Welcome to It Could Happen Here 479 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:32,400 Speaker 1: a show about things falling apart and is for one 480 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:37,720 Speaker 1: final time this week about why and how things have 481 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 1: fallen apart in this specific way. Um, I'm I'm I'm 482 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:47,359 Speaker 1: your host Christopher and Today with Me, I have Garrison, Garrison, HELLU, 483 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 1: how you doing. I'm doing fine. We're gonna talk about 484 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:53,680 Speaker 1: something that's not fine. It's not fine at all, is 485 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 1: in fact extremely grim and bad, which is part four 486 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,639 Speaker 1: of our series of deal Liberalism, i e. All of 487 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: the bad things happened at once, so in in in 488 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 1: in all last episode we talked about how throughout throughout 489 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,119 Speaker 1: most of the Third World or you know what was 490 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: at the time known as the Third World, new liberalism 491 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 1: is not really imposed by people voting for it. It's 492 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:21,080 Speaker 1: mostly imposed by either external forces via coup or by 493 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 1: just the I m F going okay, just we're running 494 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 1: the country now, um, but this this, yeah, we're we're 495 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:30,680 Speaker 1: gonna shift our focus a bit this episode with the 496 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 1: people who were I don't know, unfortunate enough, misguided enough, 497 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: decided that they hated each other enough to actually choose 498 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 1: neoliberalism for themselves. Now, one of the sort of stories 499 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 1: we've been tracing here on sort of a very broad 500 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: arc is the reaction by ne liberals to kind of 501 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 1: kind of compromise it had been worked out between labor 502 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: and capital, particularly the US after sort of the open 503 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 1: class warfare in the reteen thirties, and you know, there's 504 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 1: essentially this there's a kind of deal that's set up informally, 505 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: which is so the we're working class will stop literally 506 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 1: constantly going on strike and showing up the strikes with 507 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 1: like enormous numbers of guns and shooting at people, and 508 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 1: they will you know, stop trying to overshow the government 509 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: in exchange, the state gives you welfare programs, the state 510 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 1: will give you a house. And this is this is 511 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 1: particularly after what we're too the Americans say it just 512 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 1: you know, does this massive homeownersial campaign. And you know, 513 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 1: if if you're if you're if you're you know, a 514 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 1: union worker, particularly if you're a white man like this, this, 515 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 1: you know, working working, working one of these union jobs 516 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 1: will put you into the middle class. You can take vacations, 517 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: you can have a house, um, you can get pensions. 518 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: Your unions are legal now, which is the thing that 519 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 1: like you know, hadn't happened before. And this is essentially 520 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,479 Speaker 1: you know, this is essentially a kind of insurgency tool. Um. 521 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: The goal of this is to stop people from you know, 522 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 1: doing the kinds of revolts. So we're happening in at 523 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 1: the dirties, but by the nineteen seventies, it's becoming very 524 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 1: clear that this sort of the like can't it can't 525 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 1: really be maintained because it's too expensive for sort of 526 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 1: the capital states to maintain and trying to maintain both well. 527 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 1: And you know, the secondary thing here is is, you know, okay, 528 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 1: so this deal specifically goes out to white men right now. 529 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 1: Throughout the sixties and seventies, you get a bunch of 530 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: other people who are not white men attempting to enter 531 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 1: the workplace, attempting you get the same bargain, and you know, 532 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 1: they're in a lot of ways significantly were militants. And 533 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 1: this causes normal sponseimentional strife. You get you know, the 534 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 1: US is murdering the black panthers. You get similar stuff 535 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 1: in the UK. And the neoliberals basically are the people 536 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,479 Speaker 1: who just fully called this to tants off and are 537 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 1: you know, essentially going to return to full scale class war. 538 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 1: And so now now we are, we are finally getting 539 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 1: to Reagan and Thatcher. And one day we will do 540 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,800 Speaker 1: a full episode about how Ronald Reagan, in a weird, 541 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 1: shadowy cabal of Italian intelligence services, rigged the nineteen eighty 542 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: election by planting fake stories about Jimmy Carter's brother and 543 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 1: the press, which is if you hear the story, Garrison, No, 544 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 1: but it sounds like regular media manipulation that happens all 545 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 1: the time. Now. Yeah, yeah, it's it's yeah, there, there's, there's, 546 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 1: there's there's there's a whole three line there because you 547 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 1: know a lot of those like same kind of intelligence 548 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: tactics are gonna be used SOUTHI Iraq war, and there's 549 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: there's this whole sort of thing. Then you know, there's 550 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,959 Speaker 1: also the specific Italian angle of uh yeah, the Italian 551 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 1: States being run by this rogue Masonic lodge led by 552 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 1: a fascist and it's it's a time this is all 553 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 1: going on there. But that's you know, I'm just I'm 554 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 1: just thinking like Hunter Biden laptop and all of that. Yeah, 555 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 1: yeah stuff. It's like, oh so that's just the same playbook. Yeah, 556 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 1: it's it's the same thing, except like they were like 557 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 1: actual intelligence people running it instead of just sort of 558 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: like whatever Tucker carloson Tucker Carlos said in Glenn Greenwaal 559 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 1: trying to get people like care about this thing that 560 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 1: just nobody gives a single ship about. Yeah, you know, 561 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 1: it was, it was, but the E's version of it 562 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: was significantly more effective. And you know, the product of 563 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 1: this is that Reagan sort of Reagan finds like the 564 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 1: secret sauce for right wing politics, which is kind of 565 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 1: you know, in in in in some ways, and Nixon 566 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:17,479 Speaker 1: had been trying to develop it hadn't quite gotten right, 567 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 1: which is no, yeah, yeah, yeah. He he figures out 568 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 1: that you know, if if you want to do nei liberalism, 569 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: if you want to stroy the unions, you want to 570 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: stroy the welfare state, the way you do it is 571 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:29,240 Speaker 1: basically a combination of racist tax and welfare recipients, and 572 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 1: you mobilize new religious right. And this is extremely effective 573 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 1: and it's but I think it's also interesting and worth 574 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 1: noting that, you know, if if you got all the 575 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: back to episode one, like this is this is rope 576 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,280 Speaker 1: keys like white nationalism, like sure German white nationalism. Thing 577 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:46,520 Speaker 1: is this is explicitly what Ropeky sort of strategy for 578 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 1: implenting new liberalism was. The problem is he was German 579 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: and Catholic, which meant that like it could never work 580 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 1: in the US. But you know, you get Reagan, suddenly 581 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 1: you get the American version of it, that is, you know, 582 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 1: white but Erican and then also works off the sort 583 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: of of off of the sort of mass Protestantism in 584 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 1: the US, and this becomes a force that is responsible 585 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 1: for like almost every bad thing that exists today in 586 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 1: some form or another. Lot of them. Yeah, I mean 587 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: not not often, but you know, I think thing things 588 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 1: go extremely badly. And so Reagan wins this election, and 589 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 1: then almost exactly the same time, Margaret Thatcher wins the 590 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 1: wins her election in in the UK, and that the 591 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 1: combination of those two things, and also, as you talked 592 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 1: about last episode, the Vulcar shock, where Vulcar raises the 593 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 1: interest rates, just raised defendation become so Vulcar is installed 594 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 1: weirdly not by Ronald Reagan but by Jimmy Carter, but 595 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 1: is given this sort of mandate to just do whatever, 596 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 1: literally do whatever you have to to to get inflation 597 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 1: under control. The thing that he decides to do is 598 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 1: just literally nuke the entire world economy, you know when 599 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 1: we talked about the effects of this hat on sort 600 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 1: of the world in the last episode. But in the 601 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 1: US this sets off a recession at last basically from 602 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,719 Speaker 1: like nineteen seventy nine to Night two at the height 603 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 1: of it. It's like it's I think we finally got 604 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:17,920 Speaker 1: more people unemployed during the pandemic, but I'm like sure 605 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 1: that between World War Two and the pandemic, that was 606 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:22,840 Speaker 1: the single largest number of people who have been unemployed 607 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 1: in the US, which just yeah, it was just apocle, 608 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 1: just apocle devastation. And you know, there's there's there's a 609 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:30,759 Speaker 1: whole thing here where the head of the a f 610 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 1: l C. I OH is literally begging Vulcar like, please 611 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 1: don't do this, like we can get inflation under control after, 612 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 1: you know, after the economy recovers, and vocals just like no. 613 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:41,719 Speaker 1: The consequence of this is that you have you have 614 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 1: an economy in which is no more number people unemployed, 615 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:49,760 Speaker 1: and the unions are weak, and both Reagan and Thatcher 616 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 1: sort of see this. Now the unions in the UK 617 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:56,280 Speaker 1: are in a snifful better position of the American unions. 618 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 1: Reagan is able to sort of smashed the American unions 619 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 1: very quickly. There's there's the you know, the famous air 620 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 1: traffic control strike where a bunch of American air traffic 621 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:10,359 Speaker 1: controllers go on strike technically illegally, and Reagan just has 622 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 1: literally every single one of them fired and replaces them 623 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:17,200 Speaker 1: with just like like like people from flight school, like 624 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,759 Speaker 1: people who just just like ap literally anyone he can 625 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 1: just like pull off the street who sort of kind 626 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:23,920 Speaker 1: of knows how to how to land an aircraft, like 627 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 1: they put on people from the military. It's it's just 628 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 1: like this absolutely wild sort of feet of strike breaking. 629 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 1: And then you know, and when when when that falls, 630 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 1: and that that strike fails, you know, the air traffic controllers, well, okay, 631 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:39,800 Speaker 1: funnily so, the air traff controllers had actually backed Reagan. 632 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:41,880 Speaker 1: They were like the only union that backed Reagan in 633 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,839 Speaker 1: the election, and they immediately just get you know, they 634 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:51,040 Speaker 1: get gutted for it, which, like I have mixed feelings 635 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,399 Speaker 1: about because like on the one hand, like, yeah, that's 636 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 1: that's that's what you get. But on the other hand, 637 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,239 Speaker 1: this is basically what the stories this dis is the 638 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:00,760 Speaker 1: consequences that this is basically what the stories like trade 639 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:03,359 Speaker 1: unions in the US because at this at this point, 640 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:05,839 Speaker 1: everyone realizes that the unions a week and they just start, 641 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:07,799 Speaker 1: you know, there's uet to the point where employers are 642 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,799 Speaker 1: deliberately provoking strikes so that they can just fire all 643 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 1: the unionized employees. And it's extremely effective. In in Britain, 644 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 1: the fight is a lot more intense um in in 645 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,520 Speaker 1: in Ninity four, Thatcher cuts cold, like basically Thatchery wants 646 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,400 Speaker 1: to provoke a fight with with the coal unions, and 647 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:29,279 Speaker 1: so she basically wants to shut down a whole bunch 648 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:33,360 Speaker 1: of coal production and fire like twenty miners, and the 649 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 1: miners go on strike, and they go on strike for 650 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,520 Speaker 1: over a year. But Thatcher had basically stockpiled enough cold 651 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 1: to stay off the worst effects of the strike. And 652 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,400 Speaker 1: then she makes these incredibly elaborate network of deals with 653 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,800 Speaker 1: like She's like this this whole scab driver like union, 654 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,480 Speaker 1: like basicallyically this whole network of scab drivers, like make 655 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:53,200 Speaker 1: sure you can move the coal around while the strike's 656 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:58,320 Speaker 1: going on. There there's all of this stuff, and you know, 657 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:00,759 Speaker 1: and and she eventually is able to crust the coal strike. 658 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 1: And this also just just completely annihilates, like the British 659 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,480 Speaker 1: trade union movement, I mean union participation, I think dreaming 660 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:11,640 Speaker 1: Thatcher's term alone falls and it's gotten way worse since then. 661 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 1: So so with with those two incidents, the air traffic 662 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:18,600 Speaker 1: control and the coal did did those just kind of 663 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 1: make people be disillusioned or did that just like pave 664 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:26,239 Speaker 1: the way for similar tactics to be acceptable for every 665 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,719 Speaker 1: other union that tried to do the same thing both 666 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:31,759 Speaker 1: and then the ever thing was fear because you know, 667 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:34,000 Speaker 1: so with the air traffic controllers, right, the air traffic 668 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,440 Speaker 1: controllers are you know, these are the most highly skilled 669 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,200 Speaker 1: like people people in there there. These are a bunch 670 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 1: of people who are incredibly highly skilled, and they're in there, 671 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:43,960 Speaker 1: in there in a logistic industry, right, So you know, 672 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 1: in theory, these are the people who have like the 673 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:48,840 Speaker 1: maximum amount of impact if they would go on strike. 674 00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,439 Speaker 1: And when Reagan shows that you can literally just fire 675 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,240 Speaker 1: twenty four thousand people of like the most highly skilled 676 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 1: sort of workers in the in the US, you can 677 00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 1: fire them and just break the strike and nothing will happen, 678 00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:01,799 Speaker 1: and you know, the result is total defeat and none 679 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 1: of these people ever work again. That basically spreads this 680 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:08,920 Speaker 1: massive wave of fear through the union movements because you know, 681 00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:10,760 Speaker 1: if they can fire those guys, that can fire anyone, 682 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,000 Speaker 1: and then you know, the the employers should start doing it. 683 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 1: And the other thing that's been happening here is that 684 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:22,440 Speaker 1: for really since the end of the forties, the unions 685 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:26,839 Speaker 1: have kind of so we'll we'll talk about this more 686 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,240 Speaker 1: in in in an interview that's gonna come out probably 687 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,400 Speaker 1: next week about sort of the history American union movements, 688 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:37,000 Speaker 1: but American unions basically so American, like the union movement 689 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 1: was built by radical organizers and in the forties and 690 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 1: sort of moving on from there, all these people get 691 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:52,400 Speaker 1: expelled from labor movement, and labor fights this basically incredibly 692 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 1: intense battle against its own left flank, and you have 693 00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:57,680 Speaker 1: you know, like, for example, in in there's this thing 694 00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:01,080 Speaker 1: called the Dodge Revolutionary Movement, right, which is a bunch 695 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,000 Speaker 1: of mostly black workers in Detroit who are you know, 696 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:07,439 Speaker 1: they're they're they're they're forming unions, they're going on strike, 697 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 1: but they're also fighting against the the u a W 698 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,560 Speaker 1: because the U a W is cooperating too closer but 699 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,000 Speaker 1: the bosses etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. And there's there's there's these 700 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,759 Speaker 1: you know, there's there's basically this battle between like not 701 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,680 Speaker 1: even just basically between the unions ranked and file and 702 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,759 Speaker 1: the radicals and the sort of business union management. And 703 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 1: in fighting that battle, the unions had basically like massively 704 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:32,080 Speaker 1: weakened themselves. And then you know, by by by by 705 00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:35,560 Speaker 1: the time you hit the eighties, especially in the US, 706 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:37,120 Speaker 1: the unions are just sort of a shell out their 707 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 1: former selves and and Reagan just sort of like smashes 708 00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,560 Speaker 1: them aside. And Thatcher the British unions are much stronger, 709 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,960 Speaker 1: but you know, I mean that Thatcher is preparing to 710 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,640 Speaker 1: like like there she she has plans to, like the 711 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:51,840 Speaker 1: army is going to come in and suppress the strike. 712 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 1: There's these and especially there's there's just, I mean just 713 00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:59,040 Speaker 1: an absolutely incredible amount of police violence. Um that's you know, 714 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:00,440 Speaker 1: I mean, this is this is something that had like 715 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,960 Speaker 1: happened before dream strikes, but the the the the level 716 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:07,960 Speaker 1: of intensity of it is just like massively increased. And 717 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:13,080 Speaker 1: there's also another thing that's happening basically at the same 718 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:14,759 Speaker 1: time of this, which is squeezing the units from the 719 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:20,960 Speaker 1: other side, which is there's this I guess you could 720 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,720 Speaker 1: call it like an internal class war inside the ruling 721 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,880 Speaker 1: class between well specifically inside inside of the sort of 722 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:31,320 Speaker 1: corporate management between the sort of traditional like manager CEO 723 00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:34,719 Speaker 1: class and the sort of like I guess you could 724 00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:37,280 Speaker 1: call them, I don't know, the sort of Wall Street 725 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:41,440 Speaker 1: finance bank types and so so yeah, so One of 726 00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:43,840 Speaker 1: the other things that that happens at the end of 727 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:46,840 Speaker 1: you know, basically after the war is the sort of 728 00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:49,240 Speaker 1: class compromise was talking about like this, this happens inside 729 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:51,600 Speaker 1: of the company too, and people start to see the 730 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,360 Speaker 1: corporation as like a social institution. It has you know, 731 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,399 Speaker 1: it's like, well, okay, so there's this alliance between middle 732 00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:00,600 Speaker 1: management and the workers. And I was like, okay, so 733 00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:03,160 Speaker 1: we we both worked with each other, and you know, 734 00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:05,440 Speaker 1: the compromises that you guys got to have unions, but 735 00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:07,719 Speaker 1: the unions won't sort of disrupt production, will all work 736 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:10,560 Speaker 1: together and we'll just make like I don't know, we'll 737 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:14,680 Speaker 1: we'll make really really good ballpoint pens together. And so yeah, 738 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:16,840 Speaker 1: you have this lince between sort of middle managements and 739 00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:19,600 Speaker 1: and these unions. You know, and this this is embedded 740 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:21,279 Speaker 1: into the structure of the corporation because you know, you 741 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:22,759 Speaker 1: not you not only have the unions, but you have 742 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:28,200 Speaker 1: corporations paying pensions. One of the things that that Reagan 743 00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:31,840 Speaker 1: does is that Reagan starts, you know, Reagan does this 744 00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:35,840 Speaker 1: massive series of financial deregulations, and the other part of 745 00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:39,279 Speaker 1: this agreement basically had been that like the high level 746 00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:41,040 Speaker 1: of finance class has sort of stayed out of the 747 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,960 Speaker 1: way of management, and so management kind of like you know, 748 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:46,600 Speaker 1: the the you get this like this independent sort of 749 00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:49,520 Speaker 1: CEO class that that's that's a distinct thing that you 750 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:51,320 Speaker 1: know that there people who come up through the company 751 00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:53,000 Speaker 1: who managers and worked away at the top. And this 752 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:55,600 Speaker 1: is a distinct thing from sort of the finance people 753 00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:57,520 Speaker 1: who are like they're not supposed to be allowed, like 754 00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:00,760 Speaker 1: you know, the touch production. But in the nineteen eighties, 755 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:06,000 Speaker 1: the finance people start to look at this and go, wait, 756 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:09,160 Speaker 1: hold on, why are we not running things? And the 757 00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:11,440 Speaker 1: finance people have because they have are two things on 758 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:13,520 Speaker 1: their side. One they have a sort of neoliberal ideology, 759 00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:18,240 Speaker 1: and the second thing they have is so Michael Milken 760 00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,040 Speaker 1: he figures out how to do this thing called a 761 00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:24,080 Speaker 1: leverage buyout option. It's it's it's a it's a kind 762 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:27,400 Speaker 1: of complicated financial instrument. The short and simple explanation of 763 00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:30,319 Speaker 1: what it is is he figures out a way too 764 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:35,439 Speaker 1: basically go into a bunch of debt, and he gets 765 00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:37,440 Speaker 1: he gets people to givehim a bunch of money, like 766 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,160 Speaker 1: in the form of these bonds, and then he uses 767 00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,480 Speaker 1: it just buy out entire companies he buys one of 768 00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:45,200 Speaker 1: the company. And if you own fits of the company, 769 00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:48,480 Speaker 1: now you control, you have controlling interest. And so he 770 00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:50,959 Speaker 1: goes in and she just she just raises the stock 771 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,440 Speaker 1: prices of all these companies. And now you know, but 772 00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,239 Speaker 1: I mean, now he's gone into an enormous amount of 773 00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:58,120 Speaker 1: debts right in order to buy, in order to buy 774 00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:00,560 Speaker 1: this company, and so you know, in order to pay 775 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:02,480 Speaker 1: off that debt, he just starts strip money in the company. 776 00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:05,120 Speaker 1: And so he starts, you know, anything that can be 777 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:07,360 Speaker 1: sold for money that he can put in his pocket 778 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:09,880 Speaker 1: to pay off his debt starts getting sold. And you know, 779 00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:12,160 Speaker 1: every anything the corporate that the company is doing, it 780 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:15,000 Speaker 1: doesn't immediately make money or doesn't immediately raise the stock 781 00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:19,359 Speaker 1: price gets cut. And so you know, there there, there, 782 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,480 Speaker 1: there are. There are two major things that a company 783 00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:24,960 Speaker 1: has that don't immediately make money and don't raise the 784 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:28,000 Speaker 1: stock price, and that is pensions and research and development. 785 00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:32,440 Speaker 1: And this this has you know, this, this this this 786 00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:34,680 Speaker 1: this becomes known as the sort of this is the 787 00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:38,520 Speaker 1: hustle takeover waves. It gets rebranded as mergers and acquisitions 788 00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:40,520 Speaker 1: in the nineties, but it's it's this huge sort of 789 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:45,200 Speaker 1: wave those these corporate scrips corporate America, and it turns 790 00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:48,600 Speaker 1: the corporation from this kind of social body where it's like, well, 791 00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:52,800 Speaker 1: everyone's cooperating and companies sort of have this responsibility to 792 00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:55,920 Speaker 1: like provide for their workers and provide sort of for 793 00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:59,040 Speaker 1: like the social good into literally the only like the 794 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:02,319 Speaker 1: single entire your purpose of any company is to raise 795 00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:08,839 Speaker 1: the stock price. And this yeah, this is really bad. Yeah, 796 00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:11,080 Speaker 1: and and and you know, the part about it that's 797 00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:14,640 Speaker 1: awful is that, you know, okay, so all all literally 798 00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:18,120 Speaker 1: all a corporate rad has to do in order to 799 00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:21,360 Speaker 1: buy out one of these companies is be able to 800 00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:23,399 Speaker 1: is be able to offer a price for the stock 801 00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:26,359 Speaker 1: that's higher from the stock price of the company now. 802 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:28,840 Speaker 1: And this means even so they're they're they're there's a 803 00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:33,280 Speaker 1: very famous series of battles they buy out. An enormous 804 00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:35,480 Speaker 1: number of companies get bought out into strip minds like this, 805 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:38,120 Speaker 1: and you know, and everything and again these are these 806 00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:40,440 Speaker 1: are very very profitable companies, right, These are companies with 807 00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:42,719 Speaker 1: large research development budget. These are companies that are making 808 00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:46,759 Speaker 1: enormous amounts of money, and they're just completely destroyed in 809 00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:49,400 Speaker 1: order to sort of just like satiate these just like 810 00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:53,560 Speaker 1: absolute Google, corporate like vulture Rader people. This is you know, 811 00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:55,680 Speaker 1: if you remember, might be too young for this, but 812 00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:59,680 Speaker 1: Romney's campaign for so yeah. One of one of the 813 00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:03,320 Speaker 1: reasons why Romney loses is that like he's one of 814 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:05,919 Speaker 1: these guys like he's he's like he's the big bang 815 00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:08,440 Speaker 1: capital guy, and everyone's kind of looked at him and 816 00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:11,400 Speaker 1: goes like, you're the reason we'd like guide to this 817 00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:14,560 Speaker 1: mess in the first place. But the problem, the problem 818 00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:16,120 Speaker 1: is that these people who have enough money and they 819 00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:17,600 Speaker 1: have enough power, they were able to do this and 820 00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:21,279 Speaker 1: in order to stop them, so either there there there's 821 00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:23,799 Speaker 1: a massive there's a massive fight. A bunch of people 822 00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:26,560 Speaker 1: try to take over good Year, who you know, they 823 00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:30,120 Speaker 1: make the tires, they have the blimps, and Goodyear CEO 824 00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:34,880 Speaker 1: is like fanatically opposed to all of this because you know, 825 00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:38,040 Speaker 1: he's he's from the old ceo crop who's like, wow, okay, 826 00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:40,520 Speaker 1: we're here to like make things instead of you know, 827 00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,480 Speaker 1: increased stock prices. But the problem is the only way 828 00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:45,200 Speaker 1: he can save off the raiders is by increasing a 829 00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:48,080 Speaker 1: stock price. And the only way to increase stock prices 830 00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:50,200 Speaker 1: is by doing the things the corporate raiders already doing 831 00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:52,200 Speaker 1: so he starts slashing ptations. He starts slashing with your 832 00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:54,120 Speaker 1: development budgets. Yeah, and this and this, this sort of 833 00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:58,000 Speaker 1: cycles because now you have you know, there's there, there's 834 00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:00,360 Speaker 1: it's it's it's you're not only having pressure for you know, 835 00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:04,400 Speaker 1: like the government that's that's anti union. The corporations themselves 836 00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,120 Speaker 1: are being forced to become more anti union because they're 837 00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:09,400 Speaker 1: you know, they now have this pressure on them from 838 00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:11,279 Speaker 1: the top down, from from these sort of these sort 839 00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:15,560 Speaker 1: of finance schools, and the finance schools in a lot 840 00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,680 Speaker 1: of ways just the perfect nilable subjects, right, because they 841 00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:20,640 Speaker 1: only see the world in money. They see everything as 842 00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:22,960 Speaker 1: a market that they literally think that like they they 843 00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:25,600 Speaker 1: are like these like shamans if if if there's a 844 00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:28,799 Speaker 1: really good ethnography that I've plugged before on here called 845 00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:33,640 Speaker 1: liquidated and an ethnography and void yet liquidated in Ethnography 846 00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:36,839 Speaker 1: of Wall Street where an anthropologist goes onto Wall Street 847 00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:39,040 Speaker 1: and works there for a while and then you cannot 848 00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:41,000 Speaker 1: a bunch of interviews, doesn't it does endthpological stuff. And 849 00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:43,080 Speaker 1: the way they talk about the market, they they literally 850 00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:45,960 Speaker 1: talk about as if they're channeling it, right, like it's 851 00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:48,880 Speaker 1: like something and they're like, these are yea, these are 852 00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:52,160 Speaker 1: these are that's that's one of the new gods of 853 00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:56,200 Speaker 1: of our world. That yeah, that's I mean, that's that's 854 00:46:56,239 --> 00:47:00,359 Speaker 1: not an uncommon term of phrase to describe stuff like this. Yeah, 855 00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:01,880 Speaker 1: and and what what what what I think is they 856 00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:04,160 Speaker 1: just think about it though, is that you know that 857 00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:06,840 Speaker 1: conception of the market of like every person is just 858 00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:12,400 Speaker 1: like a peer like completely socially unbounds like thing of 859 00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:14,520 Speaker 1: capital that you oh, well, okay, if you lose your 860 00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:16,839 Speaker 1: job here, you can just moved to another firm, right, 861 00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:19,279 Speaker 1: So this makes sense inside of the context of Wall 862 00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:21,839 Speaker 1: Street because these people like like these Wall Street firms 863 00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:23,600 Speaker 1: they have they have like like thirty pc and turn 864 00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:26,160 Speaker 1: over a year, and so all these people are constantly 865 00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:28,040 Speaker 1: being fired and shuffle onto the next job, and fired 866 00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:31,239 Speaker 1: and shuffle on to the next job. And so you know, 867 00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:34,160 Speaker 1: they so they they do they do this very common 868 00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:36,400 Speaker 1: sort of fallacy thing where they assume that because this 869 00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:37,840 Speaker 1: is the way that it works for them, but this 870 00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:40,200 Speaker 1: is the way it's gonna work for everyone else, And 871 00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:42,080 Speaker 1: then they genuine and a lot of these people genuinely 872 00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:43,880 Speaker 1: believe this. They're like, well, Okay, So the things we're 873 00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:45,480 Speaker 1: gonna with, things that we're about to do, like, you know, 874 00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:47,680 Speaker 1: when we destroy these workers entire lives, when we be 875 00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:49,400 Speaker 1: you know, when we close their factories, when we take 876 00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:53,239 Speaker 1: their pensions, when we literally destroyed like every community and 877 00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:55,840 Speaker 1: every like thing that's every just in your lives, they're like, oh, 878 00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:57,399 Speaker 1: they'll just pick themselves up and go to another place 879 00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:00,200 Speaker 1: and they'll be fine, because you know, if you're you're 880 00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:03,399 Speaker 1: you know, a Wall Street finance school, like, yeah, that's 881 00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:05,279 Speaker 1: that's what happens when you get fired every three months. 882 00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:10,560 Speaker 1: And so these people, these people basically take control of 883 00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:14,319 Speaker 1: the entire corporate sector. They do. They do this very 884 00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:16,839 Speaker 1: quickly by you know, they start this in the sort 885 00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:21,000 Speaker 1: of early eighties. And uh, Milliken, the guy who comes 886 00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:25,719 Speaker 1: up with the junk bonds leveraged buyout scheme, like he 887 00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:28,120 Speaker 1: he goes to jail for I think securities fraud. They 888 00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:30,279 Speaker 1: get him for fraud. But it doesn't it a lot 889 00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:35,600 Speaker 1: of those guys, yea, all of these people like again, 890 00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:39,080 Speaker 1: all of these people are just doing crime. Like now, yeah, 891 00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:43,920 Speaker 1: that's how finance standards, this is how this is how 892 00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:45,960 Speaker 1: the Action Park guy got kicked out. You got kicked 893 00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:50,120 Speaker 1: out doing in all the same stuff. And again I 894 00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:52,160 Speaker 1: want to put this out, like the stuff they're doing 895 00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:56,000 Speaker 1: is so illegal that like even the Reagan administration was like, no, 896 00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:59,600 Speaker 1: we have to prosecute you. Like it's like this is 897 00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:03,600 Speaker 1: the this is the Ronald Reagan Justice Departments, and they're 898 00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:08,480 Speaker 1: like it was it was so much grib Yeah, it's 899 00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:11,040 Speaker 1: it's really bad. And and you know the result of 900 00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:16,440 Speaker 1: this is just basically the total visceration of of the 901 00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:20,759 Speaker 1: working class just like as a movement. And you know, 902 00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:22,880 Speaker 1: all the left wing parties are sort of shaped by this, 903 00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:25,720 Speaker 1: and you know, and you know, we we've been focusing 904 00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:29,319 Speaker 1: on on the US and UH and the UK here, 905 00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:30,960 Speaker 1: but this is not the only place this happens. And 906 00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:33,000 Speaker 1: you know, so one of the you know, like this, 907 00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:36,760 Speaker 1: this happens, this, this also starts happening like in socialist states. 908 00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:39,239 Speaker 1: Um and we talked about this in more detail in 909 00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:43,719 Speaker 1: our interview with Arnessa Kusutra about Bosnia. But one of 910 00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:47,239 Speaker 1: the big things that Miloshevik is doing in Yugoslavia and 911 00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:49,560 Speaker 1: when when he takes power and he starts like actually 912 00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:51,920 Speaker 1: being a real political force in think in eighties, is 913 00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:55,239 Speaker 1: he starts doing basically all of the same stuff that 914 00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:57,920 Speaker 1: that that Reagan attacherent doing. He starts, he starts implemented 915 00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:03,000 Speaker 1: shocked dooction, he starts privatization, he starts um like marketization, 916 00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:06,000 Speaker 1: he starts cutting studying, cutting price controls, he starts sort 917 00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:09,080 Speaker 1: of he starts doing I don't know if decollectivization is 918 00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:15,360 Speaker 1: quite the right word, because Yugoslavia's economic system is complicated 919 00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:20,000 Speaker 1: and weirder than uh, the USSRS. But you know, he 920 00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:22,880 Speaker 1: does this, and this is one of the things that 921 00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:25,120 Speaker 1: starts Yugoslavia's death spiral, because you know, you have this 922 00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:29,360 Speaker 1: enormous economic devastation from the increase in oil prices for 923 00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:33,000 Speaker 1: the oil shock, and then that gets paired with, you know, 924 00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:36,640 Speaker 1: the the economic devastation from everyone losing their benefits, people 925 00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:39,640 Speaker 1: losing de pensions, the state own industries going under and 926 00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:44,920 Speaker 1: getting privatized, um the sort of like collective ownership structures, imploading. 927 00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:51,280 Speaker 1: And the product of this is that, you know, Melosvik 928 00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:52,400 Speaker 1: looks at this and it's like, Okay, how can I 929 00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:55,440 Speaker 1: stay in power? And his answer is just genocide on that. 930 00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:59,320 Speaker 1: It's just genocide on nationalism. And this sort of collapse 931 00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:02,120 Speaker 1: or sort of state in social life is you know, 932 00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:04,960 Speaker 1: and and the leaders at the top realizing that they 933 00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:08,080 Speaker 1: can weaponize sort of nationalism is one of the things 934 00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:11,520 Speaker 1: at least directly to the Boston and genocide. Now towards 935 00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:13,480 Speaker 1: the end of the eighties, the whole Soviet block starts 936 00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:16,440 Speaker 1: coming apart. Um. Yeah, you know, the Berlin Wall falls 937 00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:21,040 Speaker 1: and eventually, you know, the Soviet Union dissolves, and the 938 00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:24,279 Speaker 1: people who are trying to end the Soviet Union, the 939 00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:28,600 Speaker 1: things that they want basically are like freedom of speech, uh, 940 00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:32,160 Speaker 1: the ability to like leave the country and basically like 941 00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:37,640 Speaker 1: Scandinavian style social democracy. And it was like reasonable from 942 00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:39,799 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union. Yeah yeah, and you know, I mean 943 00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:42,920 Speaker 1: these these people like you know, this is these you know, 944 00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:46,800 Speaker 1: like they they they wanted to live in Scandinavia and 945 00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:50,239 Speaker 1: instead they got, hey, welcome to the US. But like 946 00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:56,879 Speaker 1: even worse. Yeah and so yeah yeah, yeah, it's it's 947 00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:59,040 Speaker 1: really bad. And you know what what they get said 948 00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:02,840 Speaker 1: is just these this normous wave of privatizations the worldfaret 949 00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:07,880 Speaker 1: stage just vanishes, and you know this this causes basically 950 00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:10,719 Speaker 1: like total societal collapse. Um. Like one of my one 951 00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:12,759 Speaker 1: of my professors, and this this happens basically across the 952 00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:15,320 Speaker 1: whole Soviet block one of professions in college, and I 953 00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:19,600 Speaker 1: think she was fumble gary. Um. She she told me 954 00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:21,840 Speaker 1: about how dream the nineties like when she when she 955 00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:24,120 Speaker 1: was growing up, like she and her family would just 956 00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:26,360 Speaker 1: the only thing they had to eat was raw millet 957 00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:28,760 Speaker 1: because there's no food. There's there's literally no food anywhere. 958 00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:31,320 Speaker 1: The entire economy is collapsed. Nobody has any money, and 959 00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:33,319 Speaker 1: so you know, I was like, well, okay, everyone's eating 960 00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:36,239 Speaker 1: raw grain because you know that that's what that's that's 961 00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:38,920 Speaker 1: the only thing you can you can you have to survive. 962 00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:42,879 Speaker 1: And you know, it's this it's it's literally so bad 963 00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:46,160 Speaker 1: that in Russia it causes the single largest life expectancy 964 00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:48,719 Speaker 1: drop in post World War Europe. It's like like it's 965 00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:50,960 Speaker 1: the life expected to decrease is about like four years 966 00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:54,360 Speaker 1: because so many people die from this. Um you know, 967 00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:55,719 Speaker 1: and on one of the one of the ways this 968 00:52:55,800 --> 00:53:00,520 Speaker 1: happens is that there's so the way either they're going 969 00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:02,360 Speaker 1: to deal with like the state owned industry thing is 970 00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:05,520 Speaker 1: they they okay, And I've never been able to figure 971 00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:08,000 Speaker 1: this figure out if it was like they they actually 972 00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:11,160 Speaker 1: took Murray Rothbard's plan for this or if they just 973 00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:15,320 Speaker 1: independently developed were a Rothbar's plan for for for dissolving 974 00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:17,319 Speaker 1: state own the industries, which is give like everyone who 975 00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:20,640 Speaker 1: worked in it a share of the company. And so 976 00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:22,480 Speaker 1: they do this right, and everyone has these shares, but 977 00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:25,040 Speaker 1: these shares are just like paper, and you can't eat 978 00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:28,040 Speaker 1: this paper. So a bunch of sort of like organized 979 00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:30,160 Speaker 1: crime guys and the people who have been you know, 980 00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:31,959 Speaker 1: like like the sort of the people who've been richer 981 00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:34,879 Speaker 1: or like had been sort of connected party people who 982 00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:36,719 Speaker 1: were just like I'm just gonna cash out start, you know, 983 00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:39,560 Speaker 1: just just going through cities and they're they'll, you know, 984 00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:41,200 Speaker 1: they'll be like, okay, we'll give you a pair of gene, 985 00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:42,560 Speaker 1: like we'll give you some food if you give us 986 00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:44,239 Speaker 1: their share, and you know, everyone people just give up 987 00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:47,279 Speaker 1: their shares. And the result of this is that like 988 00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:50,840 Speaker 1: just every industry at Russia immediately falls under the control 989 00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:54,400 Speaker 1: of just just like absolutely psychotic oligarchs. And you know, 990 00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:56,840 Speaker 1: the the West definitely sharing this on that this this 991 00:53:56,920 --> 00:54:01,400 Speaker 1: whole process is engineered by just a bunch of just 992 00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:06,960 Speaker 1: like pure neoliberal ghoul like Harvards, like weird Harvard grads 993 00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:08,640 Speaker 1: who gets sent into Russia and who are like, oh, 994 00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:10,520 Speaker 1: we're gonna we're gonna run the Russian economy and we're 995 00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:15,320 Speaker 1: gonna like fix everything, and they just just absolutely destroy it. 996 00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:18,560 Speaker 1: And you know, the West has the thing they're they're 997 00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:20,560 Speaker 1: you know, they're they're they're cheering on this whole process. 998 00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:22,960 Speaker 1: They have this thing about how like everyone has to 999 00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:25,200 Speaker 1: do belt tightening and it's you're gonna suffer for a 1000 00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:28,200 Speaker 1: bit and it'll all be worth it. And meanwhile, Boris 1001 00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:31,600 Speaker 1: Jelson is just completely drunk off his asked like shelling 1002 00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:35,479 Speaker 1: the parliament with tanks, while like the U. S. Press 1003 00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:39,279 Speaker 1: is cheering, and you know there's the sort of like 1004 00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:42,239 Speaker 1: you know, the tragedy this is like it's not really 1005 00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:45,800 Speaker 1: like Russia got like more free, you know, like they 1006 00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:48,880 Speaker 1: still they still torture and disappeared anarchists and secret prisons 1007 00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:52,960 Speaker 1: like you know they're there. They still just like randomly 1008 00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:58,680 Speaker 1: assassinate political dissidence with through increasingly bizarre like poison bullshit. 1009 00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:04,239 Speaker 1: Yeah they sure do. Yeah, but you know the big 1010 00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:06,360 Speaker 1: difference is that a bunch of Harvard grads made an 1011 00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:08,719 Speaker 1: indescribable amount of money. You now, no one has any 1012 00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:11,279 Speaker 1: pensions um and there's there's this is great, like this 1013 00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:13,399 Speaker 1: is a great Russian joke from this period that goes 1014 00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:16,359 Speaker 1: he's talking about the communists. Everything they ever told us 1015 00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:18,560 Speaker 1: about communism was alive, but everything they ever told us 1016 00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:23,520 Speaker 1: about capitalism was absolutely true. Yeah, that's that seems to 1017 00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:27,719 Speaker 1: be roughly accurate. Yeah, it's it's basically true. And you know, 1018 00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:30,320 Speaker 1: and and the product is sort of neoliberalism coming to 1019 00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:33,200 Speaker 1: Russia is that by by by the end of the nineties, 1020 00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:37,120 Speaker 1: Russia is just literally controlled by the mob and these 1021 00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:40,560 Speaker 1: sort of monsters oligarchs. And Putin's campaign is like I 1022 00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:43,120 Speaker 1: am better than the mob, and I will bring them. 1023 00:55:43,160 --> 00:55:45,000 Speaker 1: I will bring the mob and the oligarchs under control. 1024 00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:46,480 Speaker 1: And this is you know that, this is how Putin 1025 00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:48,640 Speaker 1: takes power because and he has failed to hold up 1026 00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:52,920 Speaker 1: to that probless to be fair, to be fair, the 1027 00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:56,840 Speaker 1: you are significantly less likely to just like randomly be 1028 00:55:57,000 --> 00:56:00,920 Speaker 1: kidnapped and ransoms. Not me. Oh I have I have 1029 00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:03,279 Speaker 1: wrote for a website. He does not like I could. 1030 00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:08,479 Speaker 1: That's true, that's true. Yeah, if yeah, if you kiss 1031 00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:10,320 Speaker 1: off Putin, you might be held for ransom. But it's like, 1032 00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:13,120 Speaker 1: you know the number of random people who don't do 1033 00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:16,520 Speaker 1: anything political who are just like randomly held for ransom. 1034 00:56:16,719 --> 00:56:19,439 Speaker 1: Did kind of go down a bit, and like that's 1035 00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:22,440 Speaker 1: I mean, all right, all right, you gotta hand it 1036 00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:25,120 Speaker 1: to Putin, Okay, I give him. Yeah, well okay. The 1037 00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:28,200 Speaker 1: thing on hand to Putin is that he restored the 1038 00:56:28,239 --> 00:56:33,160 Speaker 1: state's monopoly on violence. Now that's not a good thing now, 1039 00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:37,040 Speaker 1: but he did it. Yeah, he well he did it. 1040 00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:39,359 Speaker 1: And you know this, this was the basis of sort 1041 00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:41,400 Speaker 1: of because his power and political support was that and 1042 00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:44,279 Speaker 1: sort of nationalism. And this is like you know, and 1043 00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:46,880 Speaker 1: and there's always just the sort of liberal line on 1044 00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:49,759 Speaker 1: on on Putin. He's like, oh, he's an SKGB guy, 1045 00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:52,160 Speaker 1: and like oh, it's still communism again. And it's like no, 1046 00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:55,880 Speaker 1: like no, no, and and that this this brings me 1047 00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:58,840 Speaker 1: back to the single thing that I I need everyone 1048 00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:00,839 Speaker 1: to understand about, need to listen, which is that near 1049 00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:03,400 Speaker 1: liberalism does not decrease the size of the state. Like 1050 00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:06,719 Speaker 1: there there were more there were more bureaucrats now in 1051 00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:09,960 Speaker 1: the Russian State than there were under the Soviet Union. No, 1052 00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:12,480 Speaker 1: And it definitely and in order for it to operate, 1053 00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:16,600 Speaker 1: it definitely extends drastically that like the hands of the 1054 00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:21,040 Speaker 1: state in terms of like like like military police, law enforcement, 1055 00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:23,640 Speaker 1: like all those things. In order to keep this weird 1056 00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:27,040 Speaker 1: market driven thing alive, you need to have a lot 1057 00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:30,600 Speaker 1: of like enforcement on people who don't have but both 1058 00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:32,920 Speaker 1: both people who like actually make money and then but 1059 00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:34,640 Speaker 1: most of the people who don't make very much money. 1060 00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:38,720 Speaker 1: So it increases not only like the bureaucratic state, but 1061 00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:41,600 Speaker 1: also like the enforcement armor of the state. Yeah, and 1062 00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:43,960 Speaker 1: I think there's there's there's there's there's two interesting ways 1063 00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:48,560 Speaker 1: this happens. One is that, well, okay, there's three ways happens. 1064 00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:50,720 Speaker 1: One is that anytime someone says they're gonna they're gonna 1065 00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:53,440 Speaker 1: do deregulation, like deregulation does not mean that they're going 1066 00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:55,480 Speaker 1: to decrease the number of regulations there are. What it 1067 00:57:55,560 --> 00:57:59,440 Speaker 1: means is that the regulations are bad for this company, 1068 00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:01,800 Speaker 1: and so they're they're going they're going to they're going 1069 00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:03,760 Speaker 1: to add more regulations in a way that is good 1070 00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:06,680 Speaker 1: for this company. And the thing is that this actually 1071 00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:09,200 Speaker 1: this you know, this net increases the size of the state. 1072 00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:11,000 Speaker 1: Right there. They're not like they're not like they're not 1073 00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:14,240 Speaker 1: decreasing the number of laws or whatever. They're you know, 1074 00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:18,280 Speaker 1: they're they're they're they're they're writing like incredibly like absolutely 1075 00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:22,960 Speaker 1: incomprehensible banking legislation that like, let's banks charge like interest 1076 00:58:23,080 --> 00:58:26,400 Speaker 1: rates that previously only organized crime could do. And then 1077 00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:28,800 Speaker 1: there's there's another aspect of this, which is that, you know, 1078 00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:32,400 Speaker 1: so the the welfare that remains right, you know, it 1079 00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:35,480 Speaker 1: becomes means tested, and you know that means that there's 1080 00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:38,400 Speaker 1: so you have the bureaucracy right that like gives you things, 1081 00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:41,120 Speaker 1: and then you have another bureaucracy on top of that 1082 00:58:41,240 --> 00:58:43,400 Speaker 1: that decides whether or not you should be allowed to 1083 00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:44,960 Speaker 1: do the thing it puts you know, there's this this 1084 00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:49,400 Speaker 1: is just just this like process of abject humiliation that 1085 00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:51,760 Speaker 1: you have to go to to receive anything, yeah, from 1086 00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:53,480 Speaker 1: the state. And it's like and that sucks. And then 1087 00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:57,080 Speaker 1: because that is so awful, there's another layer of bureaucracy, 1088 00:58:57,120 --> 00:58:59,760 Speaker 1: which is like social workers and stuff, whose job it is, 1089 00:58:59,840 --> 00:59:02,560 Speaker 1: in large part, is to help you bypass the second 1090 00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:05,840 Speaker 1: layer of bureaucracy. So that creates another layer. Yeah, there's 1091 00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:09,160 Speaker 1: there's there's there's so much. Yeah it is, and but 1092 00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:10,600 Speaker 1: but this is you know this, this this is one 1093 00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:12,720 Speaker 1: of the things in the liberals do, which is okay, 1094 00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:14,440 Speaker 1: so you know, you you have you have, you have 1095 00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:17,000 Speaker 1: your two doctrines. Right, you have the thing they actually believe, 1096 00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:20,520 Speaker 1: which is enormous, bureaucratic, military state, and then you have 1097 00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:22,440 Speaker 1: the thing they claim to believe, which is, oh, the 1098 00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:26,400 Speaker 1: state needs to be smaller, state needs to be decentralized, 1099 00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:28,600 Speaker 1: the state shouldn't it you fear in the market. And 1100 00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:31,360 Speaker 1: so whenever, whenever, like the things that they do get 1101 00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:33,520 Speaker 1: too bad, they have this other thing that can turn 1102 00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:35,480 Speaker 1: to you to go, oh, yeah, the reason there's too 1103 00:59:35,560 --> 00:59:37,920 Speaker 1: much bureaucracy is because the state's getting involved too much. 1104 00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:39,640 Speaker 1: Elect us and we will get rid of the bureaucracy. 1105 00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:41,520 Speaker 1: And then you elect them and they make the state bigger, 1106 00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:44,600 Speaker 1: and you know, you get this started perpetual cycle. I 1107 00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:47,120 Speaker 1: think the reason people get confused by this is that 1108 00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:52,200 Speaker 1: when when people when most people think of the state, right, 1109 00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:54,640 Speaker 1: they think of the state is something that provide services. 1110 00:59:54,680 --> 00:59:56,800 Speaker 1: You know that the quintessential thing of state does is 1111 00:59:56,840 --> 01:00:01,080 Speaker 1: build roads roads. Yeah, you know, you know when we 1112 01:00:01,120 --> 01:00:04,360 Speaker 1: can talk about how like the US building roads probably 1113 01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:08,000 Speaker 1: doomed the entire earth climate change. Oh yeah, no, like 1114 01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:10,880 Speaker 1: the way that we've done roads around cars and the 1115 01:00:10,960 --> 01:00:13,280 Speaker 1: type of things we make roads. Yeah it's horrible, but 1116 01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:15,600 Speaker 1: yeah it's awful. Yeah, but but there there's there's there's 1117 01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:17,760 Speaker 1: another thing about roads which is interesting, which is that 1118 01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:22,480 Speaker 1: roads are you know, so the original reason why states 1119 01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:25,560 Speaker 1: built roads was they can move armies around and and 1120 01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:28,800 Speaker 1: this comes back to the core of what a state is. Right, 1121 01:00:29,720 --> 01:00:32,840 Speaker 1: there is nothing in the actual core definition of a state, 1122 01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:35,400 Speaker 1: which is basically it's a hierarch couple of localized monopoly 1123 01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:39,400 Speaker 1: on violence. Right, there's nothing in that that has that 1124 01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:42,080 Speaker 1: like says at all the state has to do anything 1125 01:00:42,160 --> 01:00:45,120 Speaker 1: for you, right, like if if you know, if two 1126 01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:48,600 Speaker 1: guys with guns show up and sees a place, right, 1127 01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:51,080 Speaker 1: they can create a state. They don't have to give 1128 01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:55,040 Speaker 1: you anything. The state is the fundamental core of the 1129 01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:57,040 Speaker 1: state is just a bunch of armed people who can 1130 01:00:57,120 --> 01:01:00,760 Speaker 1: order people around and you know, people people sort of 1131 01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:04,680 Speaker 1: can people sort of confuse the two. And the neoliberalisms 1132 01:01:04,840 --> 01:01:07,720 Speaker 1: entire thing is increasing the increasing the military, you know 1133 01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:09,360 Speaker 1: that the part of the state that takes things from 1134 01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:12,320 Speaker 1: you at gunpoint and decreasing the part of the states 1135 01:01:12,640 --> 01:01:16,680 Speaker 1: that like gives you things. And you know, one of 1136 01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:19,080 Speaker 1: one of the there's one of one of the other 1137 01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:23,080 Speaker 1: things that that happens in this period is that labor 1138 01:01:23,200 --> 01:01:28,080 Speaker 1: increasingly stops being about making or doing anything and just 1139 01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:34,160 Speaker 1: becomes pure guard labor. So, you know, the the the 1140 01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:39,880 Speaker 1: last big neliberal project that doesn't really get talked about 1141 01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:42,720 Speaker 1: as a deliberal project ever, is that mass incarceration is 1142 01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:46,600 Speaker 1: a deliberal project. It started under under Nixon and under Carter. 1143 01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:49,360 Speaker 1: But you know, so when when Reagan takes office that 1144 01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:53,560 Speaker 1: the American prison population is about three thousand. When he 1145 01:01:53,720 --> 01:01:56,960 Speaker 1: leaves office, he has basically doubled it to uh six 1146 01:01:57,640 --> 01:01:59,800 Speaker 1: seven thousand. We have now more than doubled it again. 1147 01:02:00,280 --> 01:02:02,600 Speaker 1: And you know it it basically it You know when 1148 01:02:02,600 --> 01:02:04,480 Speaker 1: whenever you get a large near liiberal administration that they 1149 01:02:04,520 --> 01:02:07,960 Speaker 1: you know, they double it, right, it basically doubles again 1150 01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:12,560 Speaker 1: dreamed between the Clinton administration, you know, it keeps accelerating 1151 01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:15,200 Speaker 1: and you know this is this is this is the 1152 01:02:15,280 --> 01:02:20,440 Speaker 1: other thing that that neoliberalism brings in, which is that okay, 1153 01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:23,600 Speaker 1: so near liberals and produces this enormous population of people 1154 01:02:23,720 --> 01:02:26,120 Speaker 1: who don't have any jobs, have no opportunities whatsoever, are 1155 01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:27,880 Speaker 1: just screwed. So what do you do with them? And 1156 01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:32,280 Speaker 1: the answer is slavery and basically everywhere that you stay 1157 01:02:32,360 --> 01:02:36,480 Speaker 1: using neoliberalism, you see massive increases into prison population. Espect 1158 01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:39,160 Speaker 1: like the US is by far the worst example of this, 1159 01:02:39,320 --> 01:02:41,240 Speaker 1: but this happens. You know that the seven is basically 1160 01:02:41,240 --> 01:02:46,600 Speaker 1: across the world and what what what you see is 1161 01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:49,480 Speaker 1: in place of you know, it's this is this one 1162 01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:51,320 Speaker 1: of the things that dries politics in sort of in 1163 01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:53,680 Speaker 1: real reasons in the US, which is that you have 1164 01:02:53,760 --> 01:02:55,760 Speaker 1: these places that used to sort of have industry is used, 1165 01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:59,120 Speaker 1: particularly like coal mining, things like that, and it gets 1166 01:02:59,160 --> 01:03:02,280 Speaker 1: replaced by prison because prisons, you know, having a prison 1167 01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:04,080 Speaker 1: in your sort of rural town is is the only 1168 01:03:04,120 --> 01:03:07,280 Speaker 1: way to sort of ensure that you have a large 1169 01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:09,760 Speaker 1: economic base. And so you know, like local local city 1170 01:03:09,800 --> 01:03:13,200 Speaker 1: councils are you know, incredibly pro prison because it's like, oh, 1171 01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:16,040 Speaker 1: well the president would bring your jobs and you know 1172 01:03:16,240 --> 01:03:19,360 Speaker 1: this means that okay, so so so the people a 1173 01:03:19,400 --> 01:03:22,320 Speaker 1: lot of people who are prison guards are just you know, fascists. 1174 01:03:23,320 --> 01:03:26,320 Speaker 1: But there's also people who are prison guards who normally 1175 01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:29,120 Speaker 1: would just be workers. Yeah no, absolutely, yeah, who have 1176 01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:30,720 Speaker 1: just been sort of but you know, there's nothing left 1177 01:03:30,880 --> 01:03:33,640 Speaker 1: right and they they're fighting, Uh Mike Davis talks about this, 1178 01:03:33,680 --> 01:03:38,520 Speaker 1: that they're fighting this just incredibly desperate, ferocious struggle to 1179 01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:40,560 Speaker 1: like stay in the places they love and stay with 1180 01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:42,880 Speaker 1: their families, and stay with their friends, stay with their communities. 1181 01:03:43,680 --> 01:03:45,960 Speaker 1: And the only way they can do this is, you know, 1182 01:03:46,160 --> 01:03:50,200 Speaker 1: by becoming part of this like just the neo liberal 1183 01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:52,800 Speaker 1: health state. And you know, they don't like it either, 1184 01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:56,920 Speaker 1: but that's you know, that's what the liberalism is, right, 1185 01:03:57,080 --> 01:03:59,240 Speaker 1: is you no longer have a job. The only job 1186 01:03:59,280 --> 01:04:02,240 Speaker 1: available to you is picking up a gun and pointing 1187 01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:04,360 Speaker 1: it at someone who is exactly the same as you, 1188 01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:09,640 Speaker 1: except you know, they've been thrown into the slavery part 1189 01:04:09,680 --> 01:04:11,480 Speaker 1: of the system instead of the people holding the guns 1190 01:04:11,520 --> 01:04:14,080 Speaker 1: at the slavery part of the system. And one of 1191 01:04:14,120 --> 01:04:16,120 Speaker 1: the things that that happens a lot of people just 1192 01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:21,760 Speaker 1: really conflate about what neoliberalism is is they can use 1193 01:04:21,800 --> 01:04:26,200 Speaker 1: it libertarianism, yes, and they're not the same thing. And 1194 01:04:26,480 --> 01:04:28,840 Speaker 1: and this, this is a condus is a very confusing 1195 01:04:28,880 --> 01:04:32,080 Speaker 1: problem because well, a, the term nea liberals don't get 1196 01:04:32,160 --> 01:04:35,040 Speaker 1: used in the US all that much. When people use it, 1197 01:04:35,200 --> 01:04:38,240 Speaker 1: they usually use it to mean something bad. And that's 1198 01:04:38,360 --> 01:04:42,480 Speaker 1: just about it. Yeah, yeah, and and you know, and 1199 01:04:42,720 --> 01:04:45,200 Speaker 1: and also another part of the problem is that even 1200 01:04:45,240 --> 01:04:47,640 Speaker 1: if you go into like the Montpellion Society, right, which 1201 01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:49,120 Speaker 1: you know this is this is this is the arch 1202 01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:52,360 Speaker 1: de liberal institution, and it's just like basically like a 1203 01:04:52,440 --> 01:04:55,880 Speaker 1: think tank generator. There are there are libertarians in there. 1204 01:04:55,880 --> 01:04:59,320 Speaker 1: There there are there are narco capitalists in the Montpellion Society, 1205 01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:02,040 Speaker 1: and the one Pillion Society is fighting this sort of 1206 01:05:02,120 --> 01:05:05,000 Speaker 1: constant internal battle between the people who actually believe the 1207 01:05:05,080 --> 01:05:07,000 Speaker 1: things that they say publicly, like you actually believe you 1208 01:05:07,040 --> 01:05:08,840 Speaker 1: should have a small state blah bla blah blah blah, 1209 01:05:09,080 --> 01:05:11,920 Speaker 1: and the people who understand that all the small states 1210 01:05:11,920 --> 01:05:15,240 Speaker 1: stuff is just like stuff you tell the masses in 1211 01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:18,200 Speaker 1: order to get them to like slash welfare things, while 1212 01:05:18,240 --> 01:05:21,560 Speaker 1: you just hire more cops. And probably the single biggest 1213 01:05:22,160 --> 01:05:25,680 Speaker 1: distinction between the libertarians and and the New Liberals is 1214 01:05:25,680 --> 01:05:28,680 Speaker 1: about border control. Now, if if you listen to New 1215 01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:30,880 Speaker 1: Liberals on Twitter, or you listen to Neil or you 1216 01:05:30,960 --> 01:05:34,320 Speaker 1: listen to libertarians, right, capitalism is supposed to have open borders, 1217 01:05:34,320 --> 01:05:37,920 Speaker 1: is supposed to be free movement to people, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Um, 1218 01:05:38,720 --> 01:05:42,160 Speaker 1: if you look at literally everything every neo liberal government 1219 01:05:42,200 --> 01:05:45,680 Speaker 1: has ever done, it's exactly the opposite. They don't like that. Yeah, yeah, 1220 01:05:45,720 --> 01:05:47,560 Speaker 1: they hit it. And and you know, the this whole 1221 01:05:47,600 --> 01:05:51,439 Speaker 1: thing about like oh you need workers to uh yeah, 1222 01:05:51,440 --> 01:05:52,840 Speaker 1: if if you, if you, if you let workers from 1223 01:05:52,840 --> 01:05:55,919 Speaker 1: other countries go into into the US, like oh they'll 1224 01:05:55,960 --> 01:05:59,880 Speaker 1: they'll they'll decreased wages, blah blah blah blah. So the 1225 01:06:00,160 --> 01:06:02,840 Speaker 1: the period in which the US like had strong unions 1226 01:06:02,880 --> 01:06:04,600 Speaker 1: and strong wages and stuff, with the period where there 1227 01:06:04,680 --> 01:06:07,080 Speaker 1: was like basically no militarization on the Mexican border. I mean, 1228 01:06:07,080 --> 01:06:09,120 Speaker 1: there were some and you know there there's there's there's 1229 01:06:09,240 --> 01:06:12,240 Speaker 1: a build up sort of dream the Vietnam War and 1230 01:06:13,320 --> 01:06:16,680 Speaker 1: they're they're they're sort of been one back like around 1231 01:06:16,680 --> 01:06:20,120 Speaker 1: election revolution era. But you know it's it's nothing. It's 1232 01:06:20,200 --> 01:06:23,680 Speaker 1: literally nothing like it is today today. The US border 1233 01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:27,440 Speaker 1: is this just absolute hellscape. Um. I mean just like 1234 01:06:27,920 --> 01:06:29,960 Speaker 1: there's there's there's this enormous perimeter of the U. S 1235 01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:32,600 Speaker 1: border where just the Constitution doesn't apply, where like the 1236 01:06:32,640 --> 01:06:34,880 Speaker 1: Bill of Rights just doesn't exist. If if if you're 1237 01:06:34,920 --> 01:06:36,280 Speaker 1: if you're if you're close enough to the border, it's 1238 01:06:36,280 --> 01:06:39,080 Speaker 1: just it's all suspended. Uh, it's not entirely supended, but 1239 01:06:39,240 --> 01:06:41,280 Speaker 1: like basically the border patrol can just do whatever the 1240 01:06:41,320 --> 01:06:43,960 Speaker 1: funk they want to you, and you know, like this, this, 1241 01:06:44,080 --> 01:06:45,640 Speaker 1: this is this is how the border patrol was able 1242 01:06:45,640 --> 01:06:47,600 Speaker 1: to be deployed in Portland, right because Portland's technically on 1243 01:06:47,640 --> 01:06:49,920 Speaker 1: the border and the border patrol has increased power is 1244 01:06:49,960 --> 01:06:56,240 Speaker 1: there and the actual goal is so people people are 1245 01:06:56,320 --> 01:06:59,160 Speaker 1: always going to move right, And what with the New 1246 01:06:59,240 --> 01:07:02,480 Speaker 1: Labels figured out was that you know, these these these 1247 01:07:02,560 --> 01:07:06,720 Speaker 1: enormous miket labor populations, the best way you could exploit 1248 01:07:06,760 --> 01:07:10,040 Speaker 1: them as if they're just absolutely terrorized by just this, 1249 01:07:10,440 --> 01:07:15,680 Speaker 1: you know, an incredible sort of ferociously hostile, murderous just 1250 01:07:15,920 --> 01:07:21,080 Speaker 1: border regime run by fascists. And it works, like they kill, 1251 01:07:21,160 --> 01:07:23,920 Speaker 1: they kill enormous numbers of people, They do horrible things, 1252 01:07:24,000 --> 01:07:28,120 Speaker 1: They put people with concentration camps, They sterilize people they like, 1253 01:07:28,440 --> 01:07:32,880 Speaker 1: they sexually assault children, they disappear people they like, still 1254 01:07:32,960 --> 01:07:37,320 Speaker 1: people's babies. And this is you know, this is what 1255 01:07:37,440 --> 01:07:39,560 Speaker 1: neoliberalism is, right, This, this is what it actually is 1256 01:07:39,600 --> 01:07:42,880 Speaker 1: in practice. This is you know, like, this is the 1257 01:07:43,400 --> 01:07:45,360 Speaker 1: this is the this is the policy that is imposed 1258 01:07:45,400 --> 01:07:50,000 Speaker 1: by they liberal states. And I think I want to 1259 01:07:50,120 --> 01:07:53,360 Speaker 1: end on that and I want to end on a 1260 01:07:53,520 --> 01:07:58,000 Speaker 1: note about what the quintessential sort of figure of neoliberalism is, 1261 01:07:58,160 --> 01:08:01,040 Speaker 1: because I think, you know, in the neil liberal's mind, right, 1262 01:08:01,120 --> 01:08:05,560 Speaker 1: the quintessential neo liberal figure is like the small entrepreneur 1263 01:08:05,800 --> 01:08:09,960 Speaker 1: who's like guy who's you know, turned their own creativity 1264 01:08:10,040 --> 01:08:13,840 Speaker 1: and like harnessed it into like the ability to create value, 1265 01:08:14,120 --> 01:08:15,840 Speaker 1: and you know, they're creating things in the world and 1266 01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:18,799 Speaker 1: they're reaching themselves. And I think a lot of leftists 1267 01:08:18,960 --> 01:08:22,240 Speaker 1: think of it as like the quintessial the liberal is 1268 01:08:22,600 --> 01:08:26,320 Speaker 1: you know, a Chicago, Chicago School of Economics person. Yeah, 1269 01:08:27,360 --> 01:08:29,720 Speaker 1: and I want to suggest that they quit. The single 1270 01:08:29,800 --> 01:08:34,880 Speaker 1: quintessential like neo liberal figure is a riot cop, and 1271 01:08:34,960 --> 01:08:38,760 Speaker 1: specifically specifically that the you know, if if you know, 1272 01:08:39,240 --> 01:08:41,760 Speaker 1: if every everyone by now knows what a riot cop 1273 01:08:41,840 --> 01:08:47,080 Speaker 1: looks like, right, I want everyone to go back and 1274 01:08:47,320 --> 01:08:50,000 Speaker 1: even even from from like two thousand one, look at 1275 01:08:50,040 --> 01:08:52,880 Speaker 1: what a riot police officer looks like in two thousand 1276 01:08:52,960 --> 01:08:56,000 Speaker 1: one versus what they look like now. And then go 1277 01:08:56,160 --> 01:08:59,160 Speaker 1: back to even like the nineteen sixties and look look 1278 01:08:59,200 --> 01:09:01,439 Speaker 1: at look at what the those guys look like. Yeah, 1279 01:09:01,439 --> 01:09:03,280 Speaker 1: I know, looking at the footage from the sixties and 1280 01:09:03,400 --> 01:09:06,680 Speaker 1: riot cops is like really depressing because they're like, I 1281 01:09:06,760 --> 01:09:10,599 Speaker 1: could take these guys. Yeah, they're they're just wearing T shirts. 1282 01:09:11,240 --> 01:09:13,920 Speaker 1: They're just guys. It's it's way more of a fair fight. 1283 01:09:14,200 --> 01:09:16,080 Speaker 1: They have T shirts and sticks. We could have T 1284 01:09:16,200 --> 01:09:18,960 Speaker 1: shirts and sticks. That is that it's like the a 1285 01:09:19,160 --> 01:09:21,559 Speaker 1: riot of the sixties. It sounds like now they also 1286 01:09:21,720 --> 01:09:23,800 Speaker 1: in some cases will be much more willing just to 1287 01:09:23,880 --> 01:09:26,760 Speaker 1: murder tons of people. Now there is that exception, but 1288 01:09:27,880 --> 01:09:30,800 Speaker 1: in like a big street brawl, it is it is 1289 01:09:30,920 --> 01:09:33,040 Speaker 1: generally a bit of a fair fight. I mean, I 1290 01:09:33,240 --> 01:09:37,080 Speaker 1: will say also sixties police love love dogs. They love 1291 01:09:37,160 --> 01:09:41,320 Speaker 1: like sicking dogs people, which is really bad. Yeah, I'm 1292 01:09:41,560 --> 01:09:43,240 Speaker 1: I'm looking at the looking at at the two thousand 1293 01:09:43,280 --> 01:09:46,800 Speaker 1: one riot cops, and yeah, they are not nearly as 1294 01:09:47,120 --> 01:09:51,360 Speaker 1: robo copy. That's what they are now. Drin the Tin 1295 01:09:51,479 --> 01:09:55,519 Speaker 1: Chilean uprising in I was talking to someone in Chile 1296 01:09:55,640 --> 01:09:58,960 Speaker 1: and they were talking about how like they were describing 1297 01:09:59,000 --> 01:10:00,840 Speaker 1: it as like the cop we're just like like something 1298 01:10:00,880 --> 01:10:02,519 Speaker 1: had a change, beating Ninja turtles like it was like 1299 01:10:02,560 --> 01:10:07,920 Speaker 1: fighting the shredder. There's even even even the L. A. P. D. 1300 01:10:08,240 --> 01:10:12,439 Speaker 1: Riot cops for the nineteen two riots. They're also still 1301 01:10:12,520 --> 01:10:15,560 Speaker 1: just wearing like shirts like they just have they just 1302 01:10:15,640 --> 01:10:19,200 Speaker 1: have colored shirts and one stick. Yeah and now versus 1303 01:10:19,320 --> 01:10:22,519 Speaker 1: now they're wearing there whatever dumb armor they have. Yeah. 1304 01:10:22,640 --> 01:10:24,160 Speaker 1: But you know, and this is this is you know 1305 01:10:24,200 --> 01:10:25,599 Speaker 1: and this this is this is if if you want 1306 01:10:25,640 --> 01:10:28,439 Speaker 1: to trace the path in near liberalism, it's this. It's 1307 01:10:28,960 --> 01:10:33,439 Speaker 1: a lot of the army surplus stuff that like the 1308 01:10:33,520 --> 01:10:35,800 Speaker 1: police have gotten a lot of. It's really scary. A 1309 01:10:35,880 --> 01:10:38,120 Speaker 1: lot of it also sucks, like a lot of those 1310 01:10:38,160 --> 01:10:40,280 Speaker 1: a t v S. Every like everyone who's ever had 1311 01:10:40,320 --> 01:10:43,200 Speaker 1: the drive them hates them. But you know, like like 1312 01:10:43,280 --> 01:10:46,599 Speaker 1: my my like absolutely tiny dinky town has a bear 1313 01:10:46,680 --> 01:10:51,479 Speaker 1: cat and that shouldn't that shouldn't be. And I know 1314 01:10:51,560 --> 01:10:55,240 Speaker 1: where it is too, I know where the bear cat is. 1315 01:10:55,320 --> 01:10:58,639 Speaker 1: It's like, there shouldn't be a bear cat. My town 1316 01:10:58,880 --> 01:11:01,679 Speaker 1: is a tax cutout, like it's it's literally a tax 1317 01:11:01,760 --> 01:11:03,320 Speaker 1: carve out like that that's the reason, that's the really 1318 01:11:03,360 --> 01:11:05,920 Speaker 1: reason it exists. And it has a bear cat, And like, 1319 01:11:06,680 --> 01:11:08,560 Speaker 1: you know, this is this is sort of the this 1320 01:11:08,640 --> 01:11:11,400 Speaker 1: is the consequence of of of what neoliberalism, isn't it. 1321 01:11:12,360 --> 01:11:14,720 Speaker 1: Vicky usta Well talked about this on on on the 1322 01:11:14,760 --> 01:11:17,800 Speaker 1: Occupy episode it's it's the cops become more like, become 1323 01:11:17,840 --> 01:11:19,759 Speaker 1: more like the army. The army becomes more like the cops. 1324 01:11:21,160 --> 01:11:25,080 Speaker 1: And you know, the the result is this sort of 1325 01:11:25,120 --> 01:11:28,320 Speaker 1: pent opticn surveillance states where like if you and seven 1326 01:11:28,360 --> 01:11:32,360 Speaker 1: people stand on a sidewalk, sixteen cops will show up. Yeah, 1327 01:11:32,439 --> 01:11:37,519 Speaker 1: they've they've really uh excelled in making the capitalist realism 1328 01:11:38,120 --> 01:11:42,679 Speaker 1: Dumer philosophy be almost like the base philosophy for anyone 1329 01:11:42,760 --> 01:11:44,760 Speaker 1: who takes two seconds to think about the world that 1330 01:11:44,800 --> 01:11:47,559 Speaker 1: they live in. And you know, and this has been 1331 01:11:47,600 --> 01:11:51,880 Speaker 1: really effective in a lot of ways. But you know, 1332 01:11:52,400 --> 01:11:54,960 Speaker 1: David Graeber point had pointed this out, which is that 1333 01:11:55,800 --> 01:11:58,920 Speaker 1: the problem with doing this is that, you know, okay, 1334 01:11:58,960 --> 01:12:01,200 Speaker 1: so like the the norm was some amount of guard labor, right, 1335 01:12:01,240 --> 01:12:04,120 Speaker 1: the enormous amount of sort of prison guards. Like that's 1336 01:12:04,120 --> 01:12:07,200 Speaker 1: all unproductive labor, right. You know, you you you make 1337 01:12:07,280 --> 01:12:09,080 Speaker 1: you make some of that money back off that the 1338 01:12:09,120 --> 01:12:11,240 Speaker 1: companies make some of the money back off the slave labor. Right. 1339 01:12:12,080 --> 01:12:15,160 Speaker 1: But like, but that in general there the guards aren't 1340 01:12:15,560 --> 01:12:18,800 Speaker 1: adding anything. They're not they're not they're not producing any 1341 01:12:19,720 --> 01:12:23,600 Speaker 1: goods um and not really much service either. No, and 1342 01:12:23,720 --> 01:12:25,439 Speaker 1: and and this is you know this this this is 1343 01:12:25,439 --> 01:12:28,120 Speaker 1: a problem, right because because neoliberalism is profit driven, and 1344 01:12:28,240 --> 01:12:30,400 Speaker 1: so you know, what you have is is that the 1345 01:12:30,560 --> 01:12:34,120 Speaker 1: system has a choice between either it functioning or it 1346 01:12:34,320 --> 01:12:37,320 Speaker 1: making it appear as if it's the only system. And 1347 01:12:39,000 --> 01:12:40,880 Speaker 1: that's the thing is that it's it's it's kind of 1348 01:12:40,960 --> 01:12:44,320 Speaker 1: profit driven. But honestly, the more that I the more 1349 01:12:44,360 --> 01:12:47,080 Speaker 1: that you've been talking like, no, it's just about eliminating 1350 01:12:47,200 --> 01:12:50,000 Speaker 1: any alternative. So it's not not even profit driven. It's 1351 01:12:50,040 --> 01:12:54,639 Speaker 1: that it's forcing itself to be the only acceptable option. Yeah, 1352 01:12:54,720 --> 01:12:58,760 Speaker 1: that's how it gets so much of its power. Yeah, 1353 01:12:58,800 --> 01:13:01,840 Speaker 1: but but you know, the the problem with this is 1354 01:13:02,000 --> 01:13:06,439 Speaker 1: that all of that sort of ideological coercion only last 1355 01:13:06,560 --> 01:13:09,960 Speaker 1: as long as the police can hold the streets, which 1356 01:13:10,120 --> 01:13:14,240 Speaker 1: is which is they're good at it there, They're sometimes 1357 01:13:14,280 --> 01:13:16,920 Speaker 1: they're decent. You know. One of the story I want 1358 01:13:16,960 --> 01:13:21,880 Speaker 1: to end on is so there's you know, there has 1359 01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:26,280 Speaker 1: been in some with more varying degrees of success, there 1360 01:13:26,360 --> 01:13:30,840 Speaker 1: has actually been resistance in neoliberalism. And there are places 1361 01:13:30,840 --> 01:13:32,720 Speaker 1: where people have won the people. There are places where 1362 01:13:32,720 --> 01:13:34,320 Speaker 1: people have run the I m f out those people. 1363 01:13:34,400 --> 01:13:37,240 Speaker 1: There's places where people have you know, defeated coups where 1364 01:13:37,280 --> 01:13:40,519 Speaker 1: they've like you know, where they've where they've they've they've 1365 01:13:40,520 --> 01:13:43,200 Speaker 1: successfully sort of taken over the state. There's places where 1366 01:13:43,960 --> 01:13:46,880 Speaker 1: you know, I mean there's there's there's places like you know, 1367 01:13:46,920 --> 01:13:49,080 Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about couple of things in Mexico, but yeah, 1368 01:13:49,080 --> 01:13:51,360 Speaker 1: I mean there's there's the Appetittas who have you know, 1369 01:13:51,400 --> 01:13:54,320 Speaker 1: are constantly besieged, but have carved out a territory in 1370 01:13:54,400 --> 01:13:57,479 Speaker 1: which they have you know, like totally defeated the Mexican 1371 01:13:57,560 --> 01:14:01,800 Speaker 1: almost really defeated the Mexican state. And I think one 1372 01:14:01,840 --> 01:14:05,920 Speaker 1: of the sort of forgotten incidents in in the two 1373 01:14:06,000 --> 01:14:09,639 Speaker 1: thousands is this uprising in Wahaka where the yeah, yeah, 1374 01:14:09,640 --> 01:14:11,360 Speaker 1: there's a there's an enormous sort of a bunch of 1375 01:14:11,400 --> 01:14:15,519 Speaker 1: teachers are going on strike. And you know, Wahawka's teaching 1376 01:14:15,600 --> 01:14:18,960 Speaker 1: unions are enormously powerful, incredibly radical, and so you know 1377 01:14:19,080 --> 01:14:20,519 Speaker 1: that they one of the things they do is that 1378 01:14:20,680 --> 01:14:22,920 Speaker 1: they go into the city and they have these like 1379 01:14:23,040 --> 01:14:24,920 Speaker 1: these giants start of protest tents that they showed up 1380 01:14:24,920 --> 01:14:27,840 Speaker 1: and they have these like giant camps and she just 1381 01:14:28,000 --> 01:14:31,080 Speaker 1: in six the police attack them, and so they start 1382 01:14:31,120 --> 01:14:34,200 Speaker 1: attacking and and the teachers fight back, and so you 1383 01:14:34,439 --> 01:14:36,559 Speaker 1: have there this you know this, this this massive battle 1384 01:14:36,960 --> 01:14:40,680 Speaker 1: erupts um just in this city and you know this 1385 01:14:40,760 --> 01:14:42,280 Speaker 1: is this is all the police attack at like three 1386 01:14:42,320 --> 01:14:45,519 Speaker 1: in the morning, right, but they they there's not enough 1387 01:14:45,560 --> 01:14:47,960 Speaker 1: of in the clear teachers out and the teachers hold 1388 01:14:48,720 --> 01:14:51,080 Speaker 1: and they hold and they hold, and the city of 1389 01:14:51,120 --> 01:14:54,640 Speaker 1: Wahaka wakes up to this just enormous battle in the 1390 01:14:54,720 --> 01:14:57,880 Speaker 1: streets between a bunch of like teachers and the cops. 1391 01:14:58,680 --> 01:15:03,040 Speaker 1: And when Wahawka wakes up, they are just like what 1392 01:15:03,320 --> 01:15:06,560 Speaker 1: the fuck is this? And you know, they joined the 1393 01:15:06,640 --> 01:15:09,920 Speaker 1: teachers and they go fight the cops and they they 1394 01:15:10,000 --> 01:15:13,880 Speaker 1: they're largely successful in like like they beat them, they drive, 1395 01:15:13,960 --> 01:15:17,760 Speaker 1: they drive the police from the city and you know, 1396 01:15:17,880 --> 01:15:20,280 Speaker 1: and and for for for for for several months, the 1397 01:15:20,320 --> 01:15:22,559 Speaker 1: city is basically under the control of these like direct 1398 01:15:22,600 --> 01:15:25,960 Speaker 1: democratic councils and like they're there are these there are 1399 01:15:25,960 --> 01:15:27,760 Speaker 1: these things they call the mega marshes, which just a 1400 01:15:27,880 --> 01:15:30,439 Speaker 1: million people will do a march to the streets and 1401 01:15:30,479 --> 01:15:32,519 Speaker 1: the police there's the police just can't stop them because 1402 01:15:32,640 --> 01:15:35,559 Speaker 1: you know, there's a million people and yeah, that's that's 1403 01:15:35,560 --> 01:15:37,679 Speaker 1: the only way that I've seen that be successful, whether 1404 01:15:37,720 --> 01:15:40,960 Speaker 1: it be you know, just to sure sheer massive people 1405 01:15:41,040 --> 01:15:44,200 Speaker 1: driving cops out of a police station, or you know, 1406 01:15:44,360 --> 01:15:47,880 Speaker 1: an entire city rallying behind people like in in in 1407 01:15:48,000 --> 01:15:50,280 Speaker 1: Portland when the fence came, it's like you need to 1408 01:15:50,320 --> 01:15:54,320 Speaker 1: have like everybody to show up because they could fight 1409 01:15:54,520 --> 01:16:00,160 Speaker 1: two hundred like twin canarchists. They're pretty easily you usually, um, 1410 01:16:00,400 --> 01:16:02,560 Speaker 1: but when you have like all of the moms and 1411 01:16:02,680 --> 01:16:04,800 Speaker 1: dads and regular people come up, that is much more 1412 01:16:04,800 --> 01:16:08,599 Speaker 1: of a complicated of fight on like on on their end, 1413 01:16:08,960 --> 01:16:12,160 Speaker 1: because yeah, we'll still have the teenage front liners throwing 1414 01:16:12,800 --> 01:16:16,280 Speaker 1: at the cops, but when you have like regular people 1415 01:16:16,320 --> 01:16:19,160 Speaker 1: behind them, that creates the whole media narrative to be 1416 01:16:19,360 --> 01:16:24,000 Speaker 1: something totally different. And it got the feds to back 1417 01:16:24,080 --> 01:16:28,240 Speaker 1: down in Portland when Trump really wanted to not happen. 1418 01:16:28,960 --> 01:16:30,519 Speaker 1: And I think also the thing, the thing that that 1419 01:16:30,600 --> 01:16:32,840 Speaker 1: was increding incredible hawky is it wasn't just people sort 1420 01:16:32,840 --> 01:16:35,400 Speaker 1: of like standing behind them, like maybe like tens of 1421 01:16:35,439 --> 01:16:38,800 Speaker 1: thousands of people just joined the fight in in in 1422 01:16:38,880 --> 01:16:40,920 Speaker 1: a way that you know it like if you know, 1423 01:16:40,960 --> 01:16:43,040 Speaker 1: if if there's like fifty thou people in a city 1424 01:16:43,160 --> 01:16:45,320 Speaker 1: throwing bricks at you like you you either have to 1425 01:16:45,320 --> 01:16:47,280 Speaker 1: start shooting into the crowd or try to hold them. 1426 01:16:47,360 --> 01:16:49,840 Speaker 1: Can't you can't. And even when he start shooting into 1427 01:16:49,840 --> 01:16:52,880 Speaker 1: the crowd, Yeah, they tried it and it made it 1428 01:16:53,000 --> 01:16:55,920 Speaker 1: made even people the crowds were larger, and like, you know, 1429 01:16:56,000 --> 01:16:59,840 Speaker 1: one of the things that happens is that the revolutionaries 1430 01:16:59,840 --> 01:17:01,800 Speaker 1: try to like you know, they go to the radio 1431 01:17:01,840 --> 01:17:03,519 Speaker 1: station or like okay, well you broadcast this. The radio 1432 01:17:03,520 --> 01:17:05,960 Speaker 1: station says no, and so they start seizing radio stations 1433 01:17:05,960 --> 01:17:09,120 Speaker 1: all over all over the city. Yeah, and they yeah, 1434 01:17:09,160 --> 01:17:10,280 Speaker 1: and then you know, and then they had they had 1435 01:17:10,320 --> 01:17:11,720 Speaker 1: these they had these like bonfire at the edge of 1436 01:17:11,720 --> 01:17:13,120 Speaker 1: the city where if one's at the meets and like 1437 01:17:13,200 --> 01:17:15,960 Speaker 1: they're there's they're they're sending their they're they're sending radio 1438 01:17:16,200 --> 01:17:19,040 Speaker 1: like messages like over the radio stations they've taken over 1439 01:17:19,160 --> 01:17:24,439 Speaker 1: from like barricade to barricade, and you know, eventually the 1440 01:17:24,520 --> 01:17:27,400 Speaker 1: police and like the like the Mexican Army shows up 1441 01:17:27,880 --> 01:17:29,759 Speaker 1: and at that point they're able to sort of retake 1442 01:17:29,800 --> 01:17:33,080 Speaker 1: the city. And there's a couple of other things happening 1443 01:17:33,120 --> 01:17:34,640 Speaker 1: in Mexico at this point that are sort of this 1444 01:17:34,720 --> 01:17:38,240 Speaker 1: is giants sort of left wing tide, and the way 1445 01:17:38,280 --> 01:17:42,439 Speaker 1: that it gets stopped is that the Mexican army basically 1446 01:17:42,520 --> 01:17:47,040 Speaker 1: fully kicks off the drug war and they kill I mean, 1447 01:17:48,760 --> 01:17:52,080 Speaker 1: I've seen numbers up to like eight hundred thousand people 1448 01:17:52,160 --> 01:17:56,160 Speaker 1: in ten years. They just they basic they basically genocides 1449 01:17:56,320 --> 01:18:02,240 Speaker 1: the indigenous population of of of Mexico. And you know, 1450 01:18:02,560 --> 01:18:04,640 Speaker 1: I think I think that's that's that's sort of a 1451 01:18:04,720 --> 01:18:09,760 Speaker 1: place to leave it because more hopeful note to end 1452 01:18:09,760 --> 01:18:11,559 Speaker 1: to the show on. Yeah, but I mean I think 1453 01:18:11,560 --> 01:18:13,240 Speaker 1: I think it is it is worth it is you know, 1454 01:18:13,360 --> 01:18:15,800 Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's worth thinking about. Is one. It 1455 01:18:15,920 --> 01:18:19,880 Speaker 1: is possible to beat the police too. The ruling class 1456 01:18:19,960 --> 01:18:24,240 Speaker 1: will literally bathe the entire country in blood, like they 1457 01:18:24,280 --> 01:18:28,000 Speaker 1: will destroy their own country. Is different the way I 1458 01:18:28,080 --> 01:18:30,840 Speaker 1: mean this gets discussed and sell happen here, But like 1459 01:18:30,880 --> 01:18:33,479 Speaker 1: the way the American military works, I think it will 1460 01:18:33,520 --> 01:18:36,120 Speaker 1: be less likely to do that. Yeah, well, I mean, 1461 01:18:36,120 --> 01:18:37,680 Speaker 1: and I want I want to put this o. Like 1462 01:18:37,720 --> 01:18:41,559 Speaker 1: so the thing that the army doesn't directly murder people 1463 01:18:41,600 --> 01:18:43,160 Speaker 1: what they do is but what they do is basically 1464 01:18:43,240 --> 01:18:48,000 Speaker 1: like they they set off a bunch of fighting between 1465 01:18:48,040 --> 01:18:52,080 Speaker 1: the cartels and then and the cartels fucking murder enormous 1466 01:18:52,120 --> 01:18:54,760 Speaker 1: members people you know it will happily murder each other. 1467 01:18:54,960 --> 01:18:56,960 Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, well and also you know, I mean 1468 01:18:57,160 --> 01:18:58,599 Speaker 1: it's it's also this is this is you know, it's 1469 01:18:58,600 --> 01:18:59,960 Speaker 1: the thing with the MYSIC and state. It's it's very, 1470 01:19:00,200 --> 01:19:02,720 Speaker 1: very difficult to tell where the Gartels stop and where 1471 01:19:02,760 --> 01:19:04,800 Speaker 1: the Mexican Army begins because a lot of them are 1472 01:19:04,880 --> 01:19:07,719 Speaker 1: the same thing. And like you know that there's yeah, 1473 01:19:08,320 --> 01:19:12,439 Speaker 1: that's hopeful. Note to end on and just but just 1474 01:19:12,560 --> 01:19:14,599 Speaker 1: to make the ending a bit better, I do want 1475 01:19:14,640 --> 01:19:18,920 Speaker 1: to say I'm no longer going to call anyone, uh neoliberal. 1476 01:19:19,320 --> 01:19:22,000 Speaker 1: I made this joke in the group chat yesterday and 1477 01:19:22,040 --> 01:19:23,800 Speaker 1: nobody responded to it, so it was set. So I'll 1478 01:19:23,800 --> 01:19:26,719 Speaker 1: say it now. I'm only going to call them Thomas 1479 01:19:26,800 --> 01:19:30,760 Speaker 1: Anderson liberals. That that that that that's that is what 1480 01:19:30,840 --> 01:19:34,840 Speaker 1: I'm calling them now. Um, and I'll make everyone wait 1481 01:19:35,000 --> 01:19:37,639 Speaker 1: two seconds to understand what's going on and then sigh 1482 01:19:37,720 --> 01:19:39,880 Speaker 1: and then motion to get me out of the room. 1483 01:19:40,200 --> 01:19:46,320 Speaker 1: So thank you Chris for talking about the prom and 1484 01:19:46,520 --> 01:19:48,920 Speaker 1: thank thank thank thank you all for joining us. That 1485 01:19:49,080 --> 01:19:52,160 Speaker 1: this this has been NI could happen here. Um. You 1486 01:19:52,200 --> 01:19:55,599 Speaker 1: can find us on Instagram and Twitter. If you so desire, 1487 01:19:56,040 --> 01:19:57,840 Speaker 1: if you want to get, if you want, if you 1488 01:19:57,880 --> 01:20:00,640 Speaker 1: want people to know that you follow us, create a 1489 01:20:00,680 --> 01:20:03,240 Speaker 1: whole network of surveillance based so everyone knows what you're 1490 01:20:03,280 --> 01:20:05,240 Speaker 1: watching and what you're listening to, to create a better 1491 01:20:05,320 --> 01:20:08,240 Speaker 1: picture for you are online so you can get better advertisements. Yeah, 1492 01:20:08,320 --> 01:20:12,360 Speaker 1: follow us online. Yeah, joined the Panopticon. Throw bricks at it. 1493 01:20:12,800 --> 01:20:15,240 Speaker 1: It is pretty funny how they tricked everyone into carrying 1494 01:20:15,280 --> 01:20:19,280 Speaker 1: around gps is wherever they go. It's it's pretty funny. Yeah, 1495 01:20:19,360 --> 01:20:22,240 Speaker 1: it's it's amazing. It's like, oh, everyone, everyone, everyone in 1496 01:20:22,280 --> 01:20:24,200 Speaker 1: my town is like, oh, we can't get the vaccine. 1497 01:20:24,880 --> 01:20:27,080 Speaker 1: They have micro trips and it's like you have a phone. 1498 01:20:28,240 --> 01:20:32,799 Speaker 1: It's hilarious. They tricked us into carry around speakers, cameras 1499 01:20:32,840 --> 01:20:36,200 Speaker 1: and gps is everywhere we go. It is really funny. 1500 01:20:36,240 --> 01:20:48,840 Speaker 1: It's amazing, all right. Well, by Funny Fye. I'm Evrodsky, 1501 01:20:48,960 --> 01:20:51,320 Speaker 1: author of the New York Times bestseller fair Play and 1502 01:20:51,439 --> 01:20:54,920 Speaker 1: Find Your Unicorn Space, activists on the gender division of labor, 1503 01:20:55,120 --> 01:20:58,719 Speaker 1: attorney and family mediator. And I'm doctor as eating a rootcar, 1504 01:20:59,000 --> 01:21:02,080 Speaker 1: a Harvard physician and medical correspondent with an expertise and 1505 01:21:02,120 --> 01:21:05,840 Speaker 1: the science of stress, resilience, mental health, and burnout. We're 1506 01:21:05,920 --> 01:21:09,160 Speaker 1: so excited to share our podcast Time Out, a production 1507 01:21:09,240 --> 01:21:13,240 Speaker 1: of i Heeart Podcasts and Hello Sunshine. We're uncovering why 1508 01:21:13,320 --> 01:21:15,840 Speaker 1: society makes it so hard for women to treat their 1509 01:21:15,880 --> 01:21:18,679 Speaker 1: time with the value it deserves. So take this time 1510 01:21:18,720 --> 01:21:21,960 Speaker 1: out with us. Listen to Time Out, a fair play 1511 01:21:22,040 --> 01:21:25,640 Speaker 1: podcast on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or 1512 01:21:25,680 --> 01:21:30,320 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Tanya Sam, host of 1513 01:21:30,360 --> 01:21:33,759 Speaker 1: The Money Moves podcast powered by Greenwood. This daily podcast 1514 01:21:33,840 --> 01:21:35,800 Speaker 1: will help give you the keys to the Kingdom of 1515 01:21:35,840 --> 01:21:40,080 Speaker 1: financial stability, wealth and abundance with celebrity guests like Rick Ross, 1516 01:21:40,160 --> 01:21:44,120 Speaker 1: Amanda Sill's, angela Ye Roland Martin, JB. Smooth, and Terrell Owens. 1517 01:21:44,280 --> 01:21:46,879 Speaker 1: Tune in to learn how to turn liabilities into assets 1518 01:21:46,920 --> 01:21:52,280 Speaker 1: and make your money moved by Subscribe to The Money 1519 01:21:52,280 --> 01:21:54,800 Speaker 1: Moves Podcast powered by Greenland on the I Heart Radio 1520 01:21:54,840 --> 01:21:57,720 Speaker 1: app or wherever you get your podcasts, and make sure 1521 01:21:57,800 --> 01:22:02,920 Speaker 1: you leave a review. The Gangster Chronicles podcast is a 1522 01:22:02,960 --> 01:22:07,240 Speaker 1: weekly conversation that revolves around underworld and criminals and entertainers 1523 01:22:07,360 --> 01:22:10,639 Speaker 1: to victims, crime and law enforcement. We cover all facets 1524 01:22:10,680 --> 01:22:15,280 Speaker 1: of the game. Gangster Chronicles podcast doesn't glorify promotilsta of activities. 1525 01:22:15,640 --> 01:22:18,800 Speaker 1: We just discussed the ramifications and repercussions of these activities 1526 01:22:18,800 --> 01:22:21,280 Speaker 1: because at the Wall she played gamester games. You are 1527 01:22:21,360 --> 01:22:25,160 Speaker 1: ultimately rewarded with Gangster prizes. Our Heart Radios number one 1528 01:22:25,240 --> 01:22:28,160 Speaker 1: for podcasts, but don't take our award for it. Find 1529 01:22:28,200 --> 01:22:30,960 Speaker 1: Against the Chronicles podcast and my Heart Radio app or 1530 01:22:31,000 --> 01:22:42,960 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to it could happen here. Um. 1531 01:22:43,160 --> 01:22:46,920 Speaker 1: The show that is normally introduced by me shouting a tonally, 1532 01:22:47,080 --> 01:22:51,320 Speaker 1: but today I did like a professional because today myself 1533 01:22:51,439 --> 01:22:54,519 Speaker 1: and my colleagues Garrison and Christopher are talking to someone. 1534 01:22:54,560 --> 01:22:58,439 Speaker 1: I'm very excited to chat with Mr Corey. Doctor. Oh Corey, 1535 01:22:58,840 --> 01:23:01,720 Speaker 1: Well the show. Thank you very much. It is my 1536 01:23:01,840 --> 01:23:04,120 Speaker 1: pleasure to be on it. It's great to meet you 1537 01:23:04,200 --> 01:23:07,120 Speaker 1: all and to be talking to you today. Corey. You 1538 01:23:07,320 --> 01:23:10,200 Speaker 1: do a lot of writing about kind of technology and 1539 01:23:10,439 --> 01:23:14,759 Speaker 1: surveillance and cultural issues around those. You're also an author. 1540 01:23:14,800 --> 01:23:17,120 Speaker 1: You've written some great fiction. I think today will probably 1541 01:23:17,600 --> 01:23:20,840 Speaker 1: talk most around books like Attack Service and walk Away, 1542 01:23:20,920 --> 01:23:23,560 Speaker 1: but you've written a lot of wonderful stuff. Um, and 1543 01:23:23,640 --> 01:23:25,639 Speaker 1: you've also worked with the e f F for years 1544 01:23:25,680 --> 01:23:28,280 Speaker 1: and years. Um, so you you you're coming at what 1545 01:23:28,360 --> 01:23:30,400 Speaker 1: I love about. I mean, we're gonna be talking today 1546 01:23:30,439 --> 01:23:33,200 Speaker 1: broadly about surveillance and kind of the future of of 1547 01:23:33,640 --> 01:23:36,120 Speaker 1: the Internet, will probably talk about some metaverse e stuff. 1548 01:23:36,520 --> 01:23:39,519 Speaker 1: What I love about the way in which you think 1549 01:23:39,560 --> 01:23:41,240 Speaker 1: and write about the future is that you're kind of 1550 01:23:41,320 --> 01:23:43,720 Speaker 1: coming about it from a number of angles, both as 1551 01:23:43,800 --> 01:23:48,479 Speaker 1: like a tech industry journalist, as a fiction writer imagining 1552 01:23:48,520 --> 01:23:51,040 Speaker 1: the future, and as somebody who's kind of weighted in 1553 01:23:51,120 --> 01:23:54,640 Speaker 1: as an activist to this. And UM, I'm kind of 1554 01:23:54,720 --> 01:23:59,439 Speaker 1: wondering where do you see like the greatest potential for 1555 01:23:59,560 --> 01:24:02,800 Speaker 1: actual like change? Um? Is it? Is it in kind 1556 01:24:02,840 --> 01:24:05,360 Speaker 1: of is it in lobbying and engaging as an activist 1557 01:24:05,479 --> 01:24:07,720 Speaker 1: or is it in sort of imagining as a as 1558 01:24:07,760 --> 01:24:11,000 Speaker 1: a as a fiction writer? What might be? So I 1559 01:24:11,240 --> 01:24:14,560 Speaker 1: I see them as adjuncts uh, you know, diversity of 1560 01:24:14,640 --> 01:24:19,000 Speaker 1: tactics and all that stuff. Um. The thing is that 1561 01:24:19,320 --> 01:24:24,639 Speaker 1: tech policy arguments are often very abstract, uh, and they 1562 01:24:25,920 --> 01:24:31,080 Speaker 1: are only visceral for the people who would provide the 1563 01:24:31,160 --> 01:24:34,519 Speaker 1: kind of political will to do something about them. Usually 1564 01:24:34,600 --> 01:24:37,800 Speaker 1: that that comes when it's too late, right, People people 1565 01:24:37,840 --> 01:24:40,320 Speaker 1: care about tech monopolies once the web is turned into 1566 01:24:40,400 --> 01:24:42,960 Speaker 1: five giant websites stilled with screenshots of text from the 1567 01:24:43,040 --> 01:24:46,880 Speaker 1: other four. But not when Yahoo is on a buying 1568 01:24:46,960 --> 01:24:49,400 Speaker 1: spree of tech companies. And we're saying, oh, that's how 1569 01:24:49,439 --> 01:24:51,560 Speaker 1: tech companies grow, and all tech companies will grow in 1570 01:24:51,560 --> 01:24:54,479 Speaker 1: the future by buying all their nascent competitors and rolling 1571 01:24:54,520 --> 01:24:56,960 Speaker 1: them up into a big vertically integrated monopoly, which is 1572 01:24:57,000 --> 01:24:58,600 Speaker 1: kind of how we got Facebook and Google and the 1573 01:24:58,640 --> 01:25:01,679 Speaker 1: rest of it. And um, you need to be able 1574 01:25:01,680 --> 01:25:04,840 Speaker 1: to make policy arguments to policy people, but you also 1575 01:25:04,920 --> 01:25:07,880 Speaker 1: need to be able to put uh, some some sinew 1576 01:25:07,960 --> 01:25:11,000 Speaker 1: and muscle on the bone of that highly abstract kind 1577 01:25:11,080 --> 01:25:14,120 Speaker 1: of argument. And and that's where fiction comes in. It's 1578 01:25:14,200 --> 01:25:18,760 Speaker 1: kind of a like a fly through of like an 1579 01:25:18,800 --> 01:25:22,200 Speaker 1: emotional architects rendering of what things might look like if 1580 01:25:22,280 --> 01:25:25,200 Speaker 1: we get it wrong or if we change it. It 1581 01:25:25,360 --> 01:25:27,880 Speaker 1: preserves the sense of possibility, you know. I think one 1582 01:25:27,880 --> 01:25:31,120 Speaker 1: of the great enemies of change is the inevitable is 1583 01:25:31,200 --> 01:25:33,519 Speaker 1: um of capitalist realism and the idea that there is 1584 01:25:33,560 --> 01:25:35,720 Speaker 1: no alternative. So if you can make people believe in 1585 01:25:35,720 --> 01:25:38,519 Speaker 1: an alternative, then they might work for one. And certainly 1586 01:25:38,560 --> 01:25:41,000 Speaker 1: the opposite is true. If people don't believe there is 1587 01:25:41,320 --> 01:25:44,280 Speaker 1: any alternative possible, they won't work for one, why why 1588 01:25:44,360 --> 01:25:48,640 Speaker 1: would you? Uh? And so all of that together, I 1589 01:25:48,760 --> 01:25:52,160 Speaker 1: think is part of how you mobilize people to care 1590 01:25:52,160 --> 01:25:56,920 Speaker 1: about stuff. Yeah, I mean that makes that makes total sense, 1591 01:25:57,000 --> 01:26:00,840 Speaker 1: and it is. It's difficult, I think because I first 1592 01:26:00,880 --> 01:26:04,799 Speaker 1: came into technology as a journalist, and it's very difficult 1593 01:26:04,840 --> 01:26:08,439 Speaker 1: to get people to care about stuff. And I think 1594 01:26:08,479 --> 01:26:11,760 Speaker 1: in particular privacy, which there was, it has been one 1595 01:26:11,760 --> 01:26:14,040 Speaker 1: of the most interesting cases of like the kind of 1596 01:26:14,120 --> 01:26:18,040 Speaker 1: thought leaders in in an industry freaking out over something 1597 01:26:18,120 --> 01:26:20,439 Speaker 1: and people not really having an issue with it because 1598 01:26:20,560 --> 01:26:22,320 Speaker 1: we kind of all agreed to hand over all of 1599 01:26:22,360 --> 01:26:25,160 Speaker 1: our data to a number of big side not all, 1600 01:26:25,320 --> 01:26:27,080 Speaker 1: but I don't know. I'm interested in your thoughts on that. 1601 01:26:27,439 --> 01:26:30,760 Speaker 1: I understand the idea that like fiction is um is 1602 01:26:30,800 --> 01:26:32,360 Speaker 1: a much better way to try to get people to 1603 01:26:32,439 --> 01:26:35,200 Speaker 1: care about these things because it makes them feel as 1604 01:26:35,240 --> 01:26:37,680 Speaker 1: opposed to kind of reporting on I think people can 1605 01:26:37,720 --> 01:26:39,920 Speaker 1: get kind of lost in the weeds of acquisitions and 1606 01:26:40,080 --> 01:26:43,639 Speaker 1: like uh, pivots and you know, tech companies acquiring each 1607 01:26:43,640 --> 01:26:47,760 Speaker 1: other and whatnot. Well, look, I think that the part 1608 01:26:47,840 --> 01:26:51,599 Speaker 1: of the problem with privacy. The reason that we we're 1609 01:26:51,720 --> 01:26:54,120 Speaker 1: late to wake up and do something about it is 1610 01:26:54,160 --> 01:26:57,040 Speaker 1: because it was obfuscated. You know, if you've ever seen 1611 01:26:57,240 --> 01:26:59,840 Speaker 1: the maps of like how an ad tech stock works, 1612 01:26:59,880 --> 01:27:03,560 Speaker 1: the flow diagrams. Uh. And there are some things that 1613 01:27:03,640 --> 01:27:07,599 Speaker 1: are complicated because um, there are some things that are 1614 01:27:07,600 --> 01:27:09,800 Speaker 1: hard to understand because they're complicated. And then there are 1615 01:27:09,800 --> 01:27:12,640 Speaker 1: some things that are made complicated so they will be 1616 01:27:12,760 --> 01:27:15,400 Speaker 1: hard to understand. And I think in the case of 1617 01:27:16,080 --> 01:27:21,439 Speaker 1: the surveillance industry, the latter is true. And it wasn't 1618 01:27:21,560 --> 01:27:23,479 Speaker 1: just that they were trying to play us for suckers. 1619 01:27:23,520 --> 01:27:26,680 Speaker 1: They were also playing their customers for suckers. Right. One 1620 01:27:26,720 --> 01:27:28,640 Speaker 1: of the reasons that the ad tex st act is 1621 01:27:28,680 --> 01:27:32,320 Speaker 1: such a snarled hair ball is so that the people 1622 01:27:32,360 --> 01:27:34,880 Speaker 1: who buy ads and the publishers who run ads can't 1623 01:27:34,920 --> 01:27:37,520 Speaker 1: tell how badly they're being ripped off by their intermediaries. 1624 01:27:37,840 --> 01:27:39,720 Speaker 1: But this also has the side effect of making it 1625 01:27:39,880 --> 01:27:42,800 Speaker 1: very hard for us to know as the as the 1626 01:27:42,920 --> 01:27:47,040 Speaker 1: kind of inputs to that system, how our own dignity 1627 01:27:47,160 --> 01:27:50,680 Speaker 1: and private lives and safety and integrity are being put 1628 01:27:50,800 --> 01:27:55,120 Speaker 1: to risk by these systems as well. Um, And you know, 1629 01:27:56,400 --> 01:27:58,240 Speaker 1: it may be that people if they had been well 1630 01:27:58,320 --> 01:28:01,120 Speaker 1: informed about what was going on, they might have been 1631 01:28:01,120 --> 01:28:03,840 Speaker 1: indifferent as well. But I think that when most people 1632 01:28:03,880 --> 01:28:06,400 Speaker 1: were very poorly informed, right when all there was was 1633 01:28:06,520 --> 01:28:10,840 Speaker 1: this kind of that privacy discourse was just like stuff 1634 01:28:10,920 --> 01:28:14,840 Speaker 1: as being your personal information is being siphoned up, but 1635 01:28:15,200 --> 01:28:18,320 Speaker 1: no kind of specifics on how that was being used 1636 01:28:18,400 --> 01:28:20,240 Speaker 1: and how that was being done and how it might 1637 01:28:20,479 --> 01:28:24,240 Speaker 1: bring you to harm. Um, it's not clear that that 1638 01:28:24,360 --> 01:28:26,719 Speaker 1: you can say that that the reason they were indifferent 1639 01:28:27,000 --> 01:28:30,280 Speaker 1: is because they were fully informed and didn't care if 1640 01:28:30,320 --> 01:28:32,479 Speaker 1: you know that they weren't fully informed, if you know 1641 01:28:32,560 --> 01:28:35,880 Speaker 1: that they were barely informed. Mhm. I mean yeah, I 1642 01:28:35,920 --> 01:28:38,960 Speaker 1: think you're absolutely right. Because when the Cambridge analytic Is 1643 01:28:39,000 --> 01:28:40,840 Speaker 1: scandal broke, which was I think one of the first 1644 01:28:40,920 --> 01:28:44,160 Speaker 1: times that there was a really huge international story that 1645 01:28:44,280 --> 01:28:46,640 Speaker 1: made it clear some of the consequences of all this, 1646 01:28:46,960 --> 01:28:49,479 Speaker 1: like it did provoke a lot of a lot of anger. 1647 01:28:50,120 --> 01:28:53,080 Speaker 1: Um I I do you worry at all that, Like 1648 01:28:54,520 --> 01:28:57,720 Speaker 1: there's a degree to which because it because people got 1649 01:28:57,880 --> 01:28:59,639 Speaker 1: tricked or whatever you want to frame it, and it's 1650 01:28:59,680 --> 01:29:05,880 Speaker 1: glow the the kind of um financialization of people's private data, 1651 01:29:06,000 --> 01:29:08,880 Speaker 1: of people's like personal information, because that has gone so far, 1652 01:29:09,400 --> 01:29:11,479 Speaker 1: there's a risk that people are just kind of inured 1653 01:29:11,600 --> 01:29:15,240 Speaker 1: to it. Um. Yeah, well, well, I mean that kind 1654 01:29:15,240 --> 01:29:17,280 Speaker 1: of gets to my theory change here, which is that 1655 01:29:17,880 --> 01:29:21,200 Speaker 1: there is always going to be uh a point of 1656 01:29:22,479 --> 01:29:26,240 Speaker 1: maximum and difference peak in difference. You know, Um, if 1657 01:29:26,280 --> 01:29:31,560 Speaker 1: you think about something like being a smoker, the likelihood 1658 01:29:31,680 --> 01:29:36,360 Speaker 1: that you care about cancer goes up the longer you 1659 01:29:36,520 --> 01:29:40,679 Speaker 1: smoke and the more health effects you feel. And certainly 1660 01:29:40,720 --> 01:29:43,479 Speaker 1: there will come a point in your life when you 1661 01:29:43,560 --> 01:29:46,120 Speaker 1: will only ever grow more worried about the effects of 1662 01:29:46,200 --> 01:29:48,960 Speaker 1: smoking on your life. But there's also a point of 1663 01:29:49,040 --> 01:29:51,800 Speaker 1: no return. Right if the point at which you you're 1664 01:29:51,920 --> 01:29:55,880 Speaker 1: you're concern reaches the point where you're actually going to 1665 01:29:55,960 --> 01:29:59,280 Speaker 1: do something about smoking is the day you get diagnosed 1666 01:29:59,320 --> 01:30:04,160 Speaker 1: with stage four on cancer, then that, um, denialism can 1667 01:30:04,400 --> 01:30:08,080 Speaker 1: slide into nihilism. You can say, why bother, right, it's 1668 01:30:08,160 --> 01:30:11,240 Speaker 1: too late. It's like if if we spend years arguing 1669 01:30:11,280 --> 01:30:15,679 Speaker 1: about the crashing population of rhinos and then finally there's 1670 01:30:15,720 --> 01:30:18,080 Speaker 1: only one left, and you say you're right, there was 1671 01:30:18,120 --> 01:30:21,360 Speaker 1: a problem. You might as well say, like, why don't 1672 01:30:21,360 --> 01:30:22,800 Speaker 1: we eat him and find out what he tastes like? 1673 01:30:22,920 --> 01:30:25,320 Speaker 1: It's not like the rhinos are ever going to come back, right, 1674 01:30:25,800 --> 01:30:29,720 Speaker 1: And so for me, so much of the work is 1675 01:30:29,760 --> 01:30:33,479 Speaker 1: about shifting the point of peak indifference to the left 1676 01:30:33,560 --> 01:30:36,720 Speaker 1: of the point of no return on the timeline, so 1677 01:30:36,960 --> 01:30:40,800 Speaker 1: that people actually start to care earlier, because it's it's 1678 01:30:41,040 --> 01:30:43,880 Speaker 1: it's if you haven't a genuine problem, right, like the 1679 01:30:43,960 --> 01:30:46,640 Speaker 1: overcollection of our private data, the mishandling of it, the 1680 01:30:46,680 --> 01:30:51,400 Speaker 1: abuse of it, that genuine problem will eventually produce tangible 1681 01:30:51,439 --> 01:30:55,080 Speaker 1: effects that are undeniable, right that the the our ability 1682 01:30:55,160 --> 01:30:57,880 Speaker 1: to ignore it just goes monotonically down. It's the thing 1683 01:30:57,920 --> 01:31:02,240 Speaker 1: about the climate emergency. You know, even if Shell had 1684 01:31:02,320 --> 01:31:05,519 Speaker 1: not our Exxon had not hidden the data had had 1685 01:31:05,640 --> 01:31:08,200 Speaker 1: on the role that it's products were playing in climate 1686 01:31:08,320 --> 01:31:10,720 Speaker 1: change in the seventies, it would have been hard to 1687 01:31:10,800 --> 01:31:13,479 Speaker 1: muster a sense of urgency in the seventies, right because 1688 01:31:13,560 --> 01:31:16,080 Speaker 1: the story is that in fifty years something bad's going 1689 01:31:16,160 --> 01:31:18,679 Speaker 1: to happen. But here we are fifty years on, something 1690 01:31:18,760 --> 01:31:21,280 Speaker 1: bad is really happening, and a lot of people are 1691 01:31:21,320 --> 01:31:24,080 Speaker 1: caring about it. They still don't seem to care about 1692 01:31:24,080 --> 01:31:27,000 Speaker 1: it enough, or maybe they've slid into nihilism. There's certainly, 1693 01:31:27,040 --> 01:31:29,320 Speaker 1: I think on the part of the elites, a kind 1694 01:31:29,360 --> 01:31:32,760 Speaker 1: of nihilistic sense that maybe they can all retreat to 1695 01:31:32,840 --> 01:31:36,720 Speaker 1: like mountaintops and build fortresses and breathe their children by 1696 01:31:36,840 --> 01:31:42,320 Speaker 1: harrier jet you know, and and and you know that nihilism, 1697 01:31:42,400 --> 01:31:45,599 Speaker 1: I think is is what you get when the point 1698 01:31:45,640 --> 01:31:49,680 Speaker 1: of no return has passed before peak denial. Uh and 1699 01:31:50,680 --> 01:31:55,360 Speaker 1: the privacy um catastrophe that is looming in our future 1700 01:31:55,439 --> 01:31:57,400 Speaker 1: that we haven't quite reached yet. I mean, we've just 1701 01:31:57,520 --> 01:32:01,160 Speaker 1: had the first kind of trickles of the dam breaking 1702 01:32:01,280 --> 01:32:04,840 Speaker 1: that's in our future. It hasn't been enough yet to 1703 01:32:05,000 --> 01:32:07,800 Speaker 1: shift people away from it. But but we might be 1704 01:32:07,880 --> 01:32:10,240 Speaker 1: getting there, right, We might We might eventually be able 1705 01:32:10,280 --> 01:32:13,360 Speaker 1: to do something about it. And one of the things 1706 01:32:13,400 --> 01:32:19,360 Speaker 1: that will hasten that moment is UM restoring competition to 1707 01:32:19,439 --> 01:32:22,560 Speaker 1: those industries that one of the reasons that uh, the 1708 01:32:22,680 --> 01:32:27,559 Speaker 1: industry that spies on us is able to foster denial 1709 01:32:27,680 --> 01:32:31,439 Speaker 1: and indifference is because it is a monopolized industry. To 1710 01:32:31,600 --> 01:32:35,720 Speaker 1: companies control eighty percent of the ad market, Google and Facebook, 1711 01:32:36,280 --> 01:32:41,000 Speaker 1: and as as monopolists, they're able to extract huge monopoly rents. 1712 01:32:41,000 --> 01:32:43,040 Speaker 1: They're among the most profitable companies in the history of 1713 01:32:43,080 --> 01:32:46,000 Speaker 1: the world. And some of those monopoly rents, rather than 1714 01:32:46,000 --> 01:32:49,040 Speaker 1: being returned to shareholders, can be mobilized to distort policy, 1715 01:32:49,479 --> 01:32:52,200 Speaker 1: to to make us think that there's nothing wrong with 1716 01:32:52,360 --> 01:32:54,120 Speaker 1: the way that they collect data and use it to 1717 01:32:54,640 --> 01:32:59,080 Speaker 1: forestall regulation, to pay Nick Clegg four million a year 1718 01:32:59,240 --> 01:33:01,880 Speaker 1: to go around Europe and the world and say, as 1719 01:33:01,920 --> 01:33:04,599 Speaker 1: the former Deputy Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, I'm 1720 01:33:04,640 --> 01:33:06,560 Speaker 1: here to tell you that Facebook is the friend of 1721 01:33:06,600 --> 01:33:10,519 Speaker 1: the democratic regimes of the world. And and you know, 1722 01:33:11,040 --> 01:33:14,400 Speaker 1: if if the anti monopoly movement, which is a thing 1723 01:33:14,479 --> 01:33:18,080 Speaker 1: I've become very involved with, is able to go from 1724 01:33:18,160 --> 01:33:21,280 Speaker 1: strength to strength it's surging now, then one of the 1725 01:33:21,400 --> 01:33:25,920 Speaker 1: things that we might do is is destroy the ammunition 1726 01:33:26,040 --> 01:33:30,040 Speaker 1: that's being used by these large monopolistic firms to distort 1727 01:33:30,080 --> 01:33:32,640 Speaker 1: our policy and harm us in these ways with impunity. 1728 01:33:33,280 --> 01:33:36,360 Speaker 1: And and then maybe we can actually take the the 1729 01:33:36,600 --> 01:33:42,120 Speaker 1: nascent and natural alarm that people do feel about the 1730 01:33:42,400 --> 01:33:46,880 Speaker 1: invasions of their privacy and and actually turn that into 1731 01:33:47,080 --> 01:33:50,599 Speaker 1: privacy policy that is meaningful in respect of these big 1732 01:33:50,640 --> 01:33:54,400 Speaker 1: companies that actually reigns them in. Yeah, and I think 1733 01:33:54,560 --> 01:33:58,000 Speaker 1: I like that you frame it as a privacy catastrophe 1734 01:33:58,040 --> 01:34:00,040 Speaker 1: because I think I mean, what I just exhibit it 1735 01:34:00,120 --> 01:34:03,479 Speaker 1: earlier in this episode, is this this tendency that I 1736 01:34:03,600 --> 01:34:05,479 Speaker 1: certainly see in myself and I see in other people 1737 01:34:05,520 --> 01:34:08,519 Speaker 1: to get kind of beaten down by the continued um 1738 01:34:08,680 --> 01:34:11,240 Speaker 1: excesses of this industry and the continued kind of failure 1739 01:34:11,280 --> 01:34:13,400 Speaker 1: of anything to be done to curb it. And I 1740 01:34:13,479 --> 01:34:16,840 Speaker 1: think you're right. It has to be viewed as um 1741 01:34:17,320 --> 01:34:19,760 Speaker 1: as a calamity and I and nothing I think makes 1742 01:34:19,800 --> 01:34:22,759 Speaker 1: that clearer than some of watching some of the stuff 1743 01:34:22,800 --> 01:34:25,120 Speaker 1: Facebook in particular has put out about their plans for 1744 01:34:25,160 --> 01:34:27,800 Speaker 1: the metaverse, and kind of thinking back from all of 1745 01:34:27,880 --> 01:34:29,760 Speaker 1: these sensors they want to store in your house, all 1746 01:34:29,760 --> 01:34:31,519 Speaker 1: of the ways in which they want to map everything 1747 01:34:31,640 --> 01:34:34,960 Speaker 1: around you, um, they never you know. They they kind 1748 01:34:34,960 --> 01:34:37,200 Speaker 1: of advertise as like you'll be able to play basketball 1749 01:34:37,280 --> 01:34:39,240 Speaker 1: with somebody who's in a different state, But really what 1750 01:34:39,360 --> 01:34:43,080 Speaker 1: it is is you're giving Facebook access to every measurement 1751 01:34:43,200 --> 01:34:45,320 Speaker 1: of your body and you know, the pulse of the 1752 01:34:45,400 --> 01:34:47,640 Speaker 1: beat of your heart and all this this stuff that like, 1753 01:34:48,120 --> 01:34:51,200 Speaker 1: maybe we don't quite know what it would be useful 1754 01:34:51,280 --> 01:34:55,680 Speaker 1: for from financialization standpoint, but they it's unsettling to think 1755 01:34:55,720 --> 01:34:57,680 Speaker 1: that they'll have to find a way because they'll have it. 1756 01:34:57,840 --> 01:34:59,880 Speaker 1: You know, I don't know, I don't know what is 1757 01:35:00,040 --> 01:35:02,120 Speaker 1: be done about that other than, as you say, kind 1758 01:35:02,160 --> 01:35:05,080 Speaker 1: of breaking up these monopolies. Well and and I mean 1759 01:35:05,160 --> 01:35:07,200 Speaker 1: breaking up is like one of the things we can 1760 01:35:07,240 --> 01:35:09,639 Speaker 1: do to monopolies. And and it takes a long time, 1761 01:35:10,240 --> 01:35:12,919 Speaker 1: you know, um A T and T. The first enforcement 1762 01:35:13,000 --> 01:35:16,840 Speaker 1: action against it happened sixty nine years before it was 1763 01:35:16,880 --> 01:35:19,320 Speaker 1: broken up in nineteen two. I don't think we can 1764 01:35:19,400 --> 01:35:21,759 Speaker 1: wait that long. But there's a lot of intermediate steps, 1765 01:35:21,880 --> 01:35:25,120 Speaker 1: right Like we can force them to do interoperability, we 1766 01:35:25,200 --> 01:35:29,360 Speaker 1: can block them from from predatory acquisitions. We can force 1767 01:35:29,439 --> 01:35:32,960 Speaker 1: them to divest of companies and engage in structural separation. 1768 01:35:33,479 --> 01:35:35,479 Speaker 1: We can do all kinds of things. It actually looks 1769 01:35:35,479 --> 01:35:37,120 Speaker 1: like the United Kingdom is going to stop them from 1770 01:35:37,160 --> 01:35:40,640 Speaker 1: buying Giffee, which might seem trivial after all, it's just 1771 01:35:40,760 --> 01:35:44,360 Speaker 1: like animated jifts, but um, what it actually is a 1772 01:35:44,439 --> 01:35:49,439 Speaker 1: surveillance beacons in every social media application, right because if 1773 01:35:49,479 --> 01:35:53,920 Speaker 1: you're hosting a Jeff from Giffee in your message to 1774 01:35:54,080 --> 01:35:58,720 Speaker 1: someone else, Facebook has telemetry about that message. Um. And 1775 01:35:58,880 --> 01:36:02,959 Speaker 1: so the the the not the i c O. The competition, 1776 01:36:03,200 --> 01:36:06,080 Speaker 1: competition and Markets Authority in the UK was like, yeah, 1777 01:36:06,120 --> 01:36:08,000 Speaker 1: this is just gonna strengthen your market power. That's why 1778 01:36:08,040 --> 01:36:11,080 Speaker 1: you're buying this company. You have too much market power already. 1779 01:36:11,200 --> 01:36:14,200 Speaker 1: We're not gonna let you do it. Um. It was 1780 01:36:14,360 --> 01:36:17,240 Speaker 1: almost the case that the Fitbit merger was blocked Google's 1781 01:36:17,280 --> 01:36:19,720 Speaker 1: Fitbit merger. I think it's still not too late to 1782 01:36:19,840 --> 01:36:22,360 Speaker 1: roll it back. And Lena Cohn, who's the new fire 1783 01:36:22,439 --> 01:36:25,320 Speaker 1: breathing dragon in charge of the FTC, who is an 1784 01:36:25,360 --> 01:36:29,840 Speaker 1: astonishing person who was a law student three years ago. Uh, 1785 01:36:30,120 --> 01:36:33,040 Speaker 1: she has said, oh, yeah, this this like one point 1786 01:36:33,120 --> 01:36:35,720 Speaker 1: three trillion dollars worth of mergers and acquisitions that you're 1787 01:36:35,760 --> 01:36:37,920 Speaker 1: doing right now to get in under the wire before 1788 01:36:37,960 --> 01:36:41,439 Speaker 1: we started enforcing. Guess what, We're gonna unwind those fucking 1789 01:36:41,520 --> 01:36:44,000 Speaker 1: mergers if it looks like they were anti competitive. And 1790 01:36:44,120 --> 01:36:45,840 Speaker 1: not only are you going to lose all the money 1791 01:36:45,880 --> 01:36:47,640 Speaker 1: you spent on the M and A due diligence and 1792 01:36:47,680 --> 01:36:50,480 Speaker 1: the paperwork and the corporate stuff, but all that integration 1793 01:36:50,520 --> 01:36:52,439 Speaker 1: you're going to do between now and then, you're gonna 1794 01:36:52,479 --> 01:36:55,200 Speaker 1: have to de integrate those companies. When we tell you 1795 01:36:55,320 --> 01:36:58,400 Speaker 1: that you don't have uh, you don't have merger approval 1796 01:36:58,760 --> 01:37:01,960 Speaker 1: and you're on notice. You can't come and complain later, right, 1797 01:37:02,080 --> 01:37:04,320 Speaker 1: Like you can either get in line and wait for 1798 01:37:04,439 --> 01:37:07,200 Speaker 1: us to tell you whether or not your merger is legal, 1799 01:37:07,680 --> 01:37:09,479 Speaker 1: or you can roll the dice. But I tell you what, 1800 01:37:09,720 --> 01:37:12,840 Speaker 1: if you come up sneak, guys, you are fucked. And 1801 01:37:12,960 --> 01:37:16,479 Speaker 1: that is amazing, right, that is a powerful change in 1802 01:37:16,560 --> 01:37:21,000 Speaker 1: American industrial policy that really makes a difference. Yeah, I 1803 01:37:21,040 --> 01:37:24,360 Speaker 1: mean that is a beautiful thing to think of being 1804 01:37:24,439 --> 01:37:27,639 Speaker 1: in place and actually hitting as hard as it could. Obviously, 1805 01:37:27,720 --> 01:37:30,640 Speaker 1: the concern is that, like who will be you know, 1806 01:37:30,760 --> 01:37:33,519 Speaker 1: picking the head of the FTC in three years in change? 1807 01:37:33,600 --> 01:37:36,360 Speaker 1: And like how how how much influence is Peter Teal 1808 01:37:36,439 --> 01:37:39,120 Speaker 1: going to have their in the like um, yeah, well, 1809 01:37:39,200 --> 01:37:41,960 Speaker 1: and Peter til of course love's monopolies. He says, competition 1810 01:37:42,080 --> 01:37:45,799 Speaker 1: is for losers. So you're right. I mean, obviously elections 1811 01:37:45,840 --> 01:37:49,280 Speaker 1: have consequences, but you know, one of the ways that 1812 01:37:49,360 --> 01:37:52,439 Speaker 1: you win elections is by making material differences in people's lives, 1813 01:37:52,960 --> 01:37:57,160 Speaker 1: and so you know, if people are policy, then uh. 1814 01:37:58,200 --> 01:38:00,560 Speaker 1: One of the most important policies by to set so 1815 01:38:00,720 --> 01:38:04,280 Speaker 1: far is hiring Lena Khan and her colleagues canter at 1816 01:38:04,320 --> 01:38:07,360 Speaker 1: the d R j and Tim Wu and the White House. Yeah, 1817 01:38:07,400 --> 01:38:10,000 Speaker 1: I mean I would. I would love nothing more than 1818 01:38:10,080 --> 01:38:13,639 Speaker 1: to see particularly like Facebook reigned in at this point 1819 01:38:13,720 --> 01:38:16,160 Speaker 1: because I'm one of the casualties of the of the 1820 01:38:16,520 --> 01:38:20,080 Speaker 1: of the the ad market like crash of started in 1821 01:38:20,160 --> 01:38:24,200 Speaker 1: like two sixteen seventeen. It feels like the odds of 1822 01:38:24,240 --> 01:38:27,200 Speaker 1: them being able to, like, I don't know, we we've 1823 01:38:27,280 --> 01:38:32,520 Speaker 1: got three years where we know, you know, theoretically these 1824 01:38:32,600 --> 01:38:35,800 Speaker 1: policies will be in place, and and I don't know, 1825 01:38:35,840 --> 01:38:38,000 Speaker 1: I'm hopeful, like when I when I because the Republicans 1826 01:38:38,040 --> 01:38:40,599 Speaker 1: are talking a lot about regulating social media too, about 1827 01:38:40,720 --> 01:38:43,240 Speaker 1: even breaking up these companies, but they often tend to 1828 01:38:43,280 --> 01:38:45,080 Speaker 1: be talking about it in a very different way and 1829 01:38:45,160 --> 01:38:47,200 Speaker 1: with a very different kind of end goal in mind. 1830 01:38:48,080 --> 01:38:50,880 Speaker 1: Um And I guess you know, obviously they know that, 1831 01:38:51,120 --> 01:38:54,200 Speaker 1: right and Facebook they are well aware that like this 1832 01:38:54,360 --> 01:38:56,559 Speaker 1: might be a way out the clock situation for them, 1833 01:38:56,600 --> 01:38:59,160 Speaker 1: and they have some arrows in that quiver. I mean 1834 01:38:59,240 --> 01:39:02,080 Speaker 1: that may be so, but also remember that Facebook's users 1835 01:39:02,120 --> 01:39:05,599 Speaker 1: are outside of the US, and that even a change 1836 01:39:05,600 --> 01:39:09,719 Speaker 1: administration here won't won't UM put Margueritte vest Dagger, who's 1837 01:39:10,080 --> 01:39:12,840 Speaker 1: the Competition Commissioner in the EU back in the bottle, 1838 01:39:13,160 --> 01:39:16,519 Speaker 1: and she's another fire breather, right, She's another amazing person. 1839 01:39:16,560 --> 01:39:19,160 Speaker 1: And so you know I wouldn't be too quick to 1840 01:39:19,240 --> 01:39:23,080 Speaker 1: write that off. I mean Facebook needs its foreign markets. Yes, 1841 01:39:23,120 --> 01:39:25,120 Speaker 1: it's u S customers are worth more to anyone else 1842 01:39:25,160 --> 01:39:28,200 Speaker 1: because we have the most primitive privacy frameworks, so it 1843 01:39:28,240 --> 01:39:29,960 Speaker 1: can extract a lot more data for like we're the 1844 01:39:30,040 --> 01:39:33,400 Speaker 1: we're the richest people with a worse privacy. So that's 1845 01:39:33,479 --> 01:39:36,240 Speaker 1: that's UM. You know, it's a real home court advantage 1846 01:39:36,280 --> 01:39:38,320 Speaker 1: for Facebook, but it needs that other eighty percent of 1847 01:39:38,400 --> 01:39:40,840 Speaker 1: its users. It wouldn't be what it is without them, 1848 01:39:41,080 --> 01:39:43,760 Speaker 1: and that makes it subject to their jurisdiction. And you know, 1849 01:39:43,840 --> 01:39:46,880 Speaker 1: one of the things about ad driven firms like Facebook, 1850 01:39:47,640 --> 01:39:51,160 Speaker 1: UM is that they really need sales offices in country. 1851 01:39:52,120 --> 01:39:54,600 Speaker 1: Uh so you know, even before we we had the 1852 01:39:54,640 --> 01:39:57,280 Speaker 1: proliferation national firewalls, which don't get me wrong, I don't 1853 01:39:57,280 --> 01:40:02,000 Speaker 1: think it's a good thing. UM. These large global firms 1854 01:40:02,640 --> 01:40:06,799 Speaker 1: that operated UM sales offices in country, in every territory 1855 01:40:06,880 --> 01:40:09,920 Speaker 1: they worked in, were vulnerable to regulation because if you 1856 01:40:10,040 --> 01:40:13,280 Speaker 1: have staff in a country, then you have someone that 1857 01:40:13,360 --> 01:40:17,639 Speaker 1: can be arrested, right, and so it's not like they 1858 01:40:17,720 --> 01:40:21,320 Speaker 1: can just be like I don't know, like the Tour Project, 1859 01:40:21,720 --> 01:40:25,320 Speaker 1: which just you know, it has people um who who 1860 01:40:25,439 --> 01:40:28,160 Speaker 1: sit and hack on tour who are close to lawyers 1861 01:40:28,200 --> 01:40:31,519 Speaker 1: who can defend people who sit on hack and on tour. Uh. 1862 01:40:31,760 --> 01:40:34,200 Speaker 1: You know, if the Tour Project had to have staff 1863 01:40:34,240 --> 01:40:39,000 Speaker 1: full time in Turkey and China and Russia and Syria 1864 01:40:39,160 --> 01:40:42,559 Speaker 1: in order to operate, it would be a very different project. 1865 01:40:42,920 --> 01:40:46,200 Speaker 1: But you know, Facebook and Twitter and Google, they all 1866 01:40:46,280 --> 01:40:49,200 Speaker 1: have staff in those countries and it makes them vulnerable 1867 01:40:49,240 --> 01:40:53,240 Speaker 1: to regulation. And so, you know, China is really interesting 1868 01:40:53,280 --> 01:40:57,160 Speaker 1: because because m j and Ping, for his own reasons 1869 01:40:57,240 --> 01:41:01,160 Speaker 1: which are not my reasons and stink from the Democrats 1870 01:41:01,200 --> 01:41:04,040 Speaker 1: and the Republicans reasons, is doing stuff to rein in 1871 01:41:04,160 --> 01:41:07,240 Speaker 1: big tech in China. And it's actually quite interesting because 1872 01:41:07,280 --> 01:41:09,120 Speaker 1: you know the argument that Nick Legg makes when he 1873 01:41:09,160 --> 01:41:11,760 Speaker 1: says why we shouldn't break up Facebook, as he says, uh, 1874 01:41:12,240 --> 01:41:15,960 Speaker 1: you know, China is coming for your UM, for your 1875 01:41:16,120 --> 01:41:20,400 Speaker 1: I P and for your industrial competitiveness with its big 1876 01:41:20,479 --> 01:41:23,679 Speaker 1: tech giants that it treats as national champions that projects 1877 01:41:23,680 --> 01:41:27,160 Speaker 1: soft power around the world. Meanwhile, China is like these 1878 01:41:27,240 --> 01:41:30,120 Speaker 1: tech giants, we hate these tech giants. They present a 1879 01:41:30,200 --> 01:41:33,200 Speaker 1: countervailing force to the hedgemony of the the Communist Party 1880 01:41:33,200 --> 01:41:35,559 Speaker 1: and the and the executive branch that she should bring 1881 01:41:35,640 --> 01:41:37,920 Speaker 1: sets at the top of we're gonna neuter them, and 1882 01:41:37,960 --> 01:41:41,120 Speaker 1: we're gonna we're gonna disappear their founders, like Jack Mont 1883 01:41:41,200 --> 01:41:44,920 Speaker 1: to fucking Googlogs right Like, they're like, we don't want 1884 01:41:45,040 --> 01:41:48,720 Speaker 1: national champions because the nation that you know, we Bow 1885 01:41:48,840 --> 01:41:51,920 Speaker 1: and Ali Baba is the champion four is we Bow 1886 01:41:51,960 --> 01:41:54,519 Speaker 1: and Ali Baba and ten Cent they're not. They're not 1887 01:41:54,680 --> 01:41:58,200 Speaker 1: champions for China by any stretch of the imagination. They 1888 01:41:58,240 --> 01:42:00,680 Speaker 1: don't give a shit about China. And so you know, 1889 01:42:00,840 --> 01:42:04,439 Speaker 1: they're all of these companies are going to face regulatory pressure, 1890 01:42:04,880 --> 01:42:09,000 Speaker 1: anti monopoly regulatory pressure all over the world, and you're 1891 01:42:09,360 --> 01:42:13,559 Speaker 1: you're so much more um optimistic. I guess about about 1892 01:42:13,640 --> 01:42:16,040 Speaker 1: the potential for that to bite than a lot of 1893 01:42:16,080 --> 01:42:18,280 Speaker 1: people I talked to, and I think more knowledgeable as well. 1894 01:42:18,400 --> 01:42:20,639 Speaker 1: And I kind of wonder because there's this very strong, 1895 01:42:21,200 --> 01:42:24,360 Speaker 1: obviously influenced by decades of cyberpunk attitude that like, we're 1896 01:42:24,400 --> 01:42:28,320 Speaker 1: in this age of mega corporations whose power is you know, 1897 01:42:29,360 --> 01:42:31,920 Speaker 1: there's nothing that can stop Amazon from doing what Amazon 1898 01:42:32,040 --> 01:42:33,760 Speaker 1: wants to do. Right, Facebook is going to keep doing 1899 01:42:34,160 --> 01:42:36,559 Speaker 1: whatever they want to do forever. You you clearly don't 1900 01:42:36,600 --> 01:42:39,360 Speaker 1: believe that. And I you know you, you clearly know 1901 01:42:39,520 --> 01:42:44,320 Speaker 1: your stuff. I'm wondering why you think that that image 1902 01:42:44,360 --> 01:42:47,719 Speaker 1: is still persist so persistent that like attitude in our heads, 1903 01:42:47,880 --> 01:42:51,960 Speaker 1: of these these these are kind of monolithic forces in 1904 01:42:52,000 --> 01:42:56,160 Speaker 1: our society that um just have to be endured. So 1905 01:42:56,280 --> 01:42:59,640 Speaker 1: I think it's a belief in the great forces of history, right, um, 1906 01:43:00,160 --> 01:43:03,080 Speaker 1: and the great man theory. You know that the the 1907 01:43:03,360 --> 01:43:08,840 Speaker 1: these um. Uh, you know that these rich people are 1908 01:43:09,000 --> 01:43:13,760 Speaker 1: driving history. Yeah, these these these powerful figures are driving history. 1909 01:43:13,800 --> 01:43:15,640 Speaker 1: They're in charge there in the driver's seat. I mean, 1910 01:43:15,720 --> 01:43:18,080 Speaker 1: that's kind of what's behind Trump arrangement syndrome, right, the 1911 01:43:18,160 --> 01:43:23,400 Speaker 1: idea that Trump is uniquely powerful and talented demagogue as 1912 01:43:23,439 --> 01:43:26,840 Speaker 1: opposed to just like a demagogue shaped puzzle piece that 1913 01:43:27,000 --> 01:43:29,360 Speaker 1: fit in the demagogue shaped hold that was left by 1914 01:43:29,560 --> 01:43:33,240 Speaker 1: the collapse of credibility of capitalism. Uh. And you know, 1915 01:43:33,320 --> 01:43:35,360 Speaker 1: a man who is clearly too stupid to be a 1916 01:43:35,439 --> 01:43:38,000 Speaker 1: cause of anything and will only ever be the effect 1917 01:43:38,040 --> 01:43:43,200 Speaker 1: of something. And uh, you know, the for me, the 1918 01:43:43,360 --> 01:43:46,840 Speaker 1: theory of of history and how it goes was really 1919 01:43:47,439 --> 01:43:51,760 Speaker 1: transformed by an exercise that my friend Ada Palmer does. So. 1920 01:43:51,920 --> 01:43:54,960 Speaker 1: Aida is a science fiction novelist. She's she's just published 1921 01:43:55,160 --> 01:43:58,080 Speaker 1: the fourth book of her Terra Ignota series, her debut series. 1922 01:43:58,280 --> 01:44:01,599 Speaker 1: It's an incredible series of books. But she's a real 1923 01:44:01,720 --> 01:44:04,040 Speaker 1: like kind of multi talented, multi threat. So she's a 1924 01:44:04,120 --> 01:44:08,040 Speaker 1: librettiston singer who has produced album length operas based on 1925 01:44:08,120 --> 01:44:12,760 Speaker 1: the Norse mythos. She's also a tenured history of um 1926 01:44:13,160 --> 01:44:16,120 Speaker 1: a tenured professor of Renaissance history in Florence at the 1927 01:44:16,200 --> 01:44:22,480 Speaker 1: University of Chicago, where she studies heterodox information, pornography, homosexuality, witchcraft, 1928 01:44:22,520 --> 01:44:25,560 Speaker 1: and so on. During the inquisitions and every year with 1929 01:44:25,720 --> 01:44:30,280 Speaker 1: her undergrads, she reenacts through a four week long live 1930 01:44:30,360 --> 01:44:33,120 Speaker 1: action role playing game, the Election of the Medici's Pope, 1931 01:44:33,760 --> 01:44:36,080 Speaker 1: and each of her students takes on the role of 1932 01:44:36,160 --> 01:44:40,240 Speaker 1: a cardinal from a great family and the in the 1933 01:44:40,320 --> 01:44:43,920 Speaker 1: actual election of the I forget what year was, uh, 1934 01:44:44,640 --> 01:44:49,920 Speaker 1: fourteen ninety or something, I forget, but they each take 1935 01:44:50,000 --> 01:44:53,800 Speaker 1: on this role and they have a character sheet and 1936 01:44:53,880 --> 01:44:56,840 Speaker 1: has motivations like a dinner party, murder mystery. But for 1937 01:44:57,000 --> 01:45:01,720 Speaker 1: four weeks they make a alliances break, alliances stab each 1938 01:45:01,720 --> 01:45:05,599 Speaker 1: other in the back UH stage surprise reversals, And at 1939 01:45:05,600 --> 01:45:07,920 Speaker 1: the end of the four weeks there's a u faux 1940 01:45:08,240 --> 01:45:13,599 Speaker 1: Gothic cathedral on campus and they dress up in costume. 1941 01:45:13,720 --> 01:45:17,400 Speaker 1: Aida has a a Google alert for theater companies that 1942 01:45:17,439 --> 01:45:20,080 Speaker 1: are getting rid of their costumes, so she clothes them 1943 01:45:20,280 --> 01:45:24,240 Speaker 1: in the garb of the Medici's cardinals, and they gather 1944 01:45:25,160 --> 01:45:27,840 Speaker 1: and they go into a room, and then a puff 1945 01:45:27,880 --> 01:45:31,240 Speaker 1: of smoke emerges, and you get the new Pope. And 1946 01:45:31,479 --> 01:45:35,680 Speaker 1: every year, four of the final candidates UH there are 1947 01:45:35,720 --> 01:45:38,200 Speaker 1: four final candidates rather and two of them are always 1948 01:45:38,320 --> 01:45:41,479 Speaker 1: the same, because the great forces of history bear down 1949 01:45:41,560 --> 01:45:43,920 Speaker 1: on that moment to say those people will absolutely be 1950 01:45:44,040 --> 01:45:48,320 Speaker 1: in the running for the for the papacy, and two 1951 01:45:48,400 --> 01:45:51,800 Speaker 1: of them have never once been the same, because human 1952 01:45:51,880 --> 01:45:57,400 Speaker 1: action still has space to alter the outcomes that are 1953 01:45:57,479 --> 01:46:01,080 Speaker 1: prefigured by the great forces of history. And so for me, 1954 01:46:02,479 --> 01:46:05,240 Speaker 1: the idea of being an optimist or a pessimist has 1955 01:46:05,280 --> 01:46:09,120 Speaker 1: always felt very fatalistic. It's this either way, this idea 1956 01:46:09,160 --> 01:46:11,160 Speaker 1: that the great forces of history have determined the outcome 1957 01:46:11,200 --> 01:46:13,640 Speaker 1: and human action has no bearing on it. And I 1958 01:46:13,760 --> 01:46:18,120 Speaker 1: think that rather than optimism or pessimism, we can be hopeful, 1959 01:46:18,240 --> 01:46:20,800 Speaker 1: And that's the word you use before. Hope is the 1960 01:46:20,960 --> 01:46:23,160 Speaker 1: idea not that you can see a path from here 1961 01:46:23,240 --> 01:46:25,680 Speaker 1: to the place you want to get to, but rather 1962 01:46:25,760 --> 01:46:27,559 Speaker 1: that you haven't run out of things that you can 1963 01:46:27,640 --> 01:46:30,680 Speaker 1: do to advance your your goal, right, Because if you 1964 01:46:30,800 --> 01:46:33,720 Speaker 1: can take a step to advance your goal, you can 1965 01:46:33,760 --> 01:46:37,400 Speaker 1: ascend the gradient towards the peak that you are trying 1966 01:46:37,479 --> 01:46:40,800 Speaker 1: to reach, then you will attain a new vantage point, 1967 01:46:41,120 --> 01:46:43,280 Speaker 1: and from that vantage point, you may have revealed to 1968 01:46:43,320 --> 01:46:46,439 Speaker 1: you courses of action that you didn't suspect before you 1969 01:46:46,600 --> 01:46:49,320 Speaker 1: took that step. So, so long as the step is available, 1970 01:46:49,360 --> 01:46:51,880 Speaker 1: there's always another step lurking in the wings that you 1971 01:46:52,040 --> 01:46:54,639 Speaker 1: can't see from where you are. And the reason I'm 1972 01:46:54,640 --> 01:46:57,479 Speaker 1: hopeful about this is I can think of like fifty 1973 01:46:57,600 --> 01:47:02,000 Speaker 1: things that could improve the monopoly picture that we're living 1974 01:47:02,040 --> 01:47:04,760 Speaker 1: in now, and it's up from thirty things last year. 1975 01:47:05,280 --> 01:47:07,200 Speaker 1: And so even though I don't know how we get 1976 01:47:07,280 --> 01:47:09,120 Speaker 1: from here to a better future, and even though I 1977 01:47:09,200 --> 01:47:13,559 Speaker 1: absolutely see the blockers you're talking about Trump landslide, uh 1978 01:47:14,080 --> 01:47:17,519 Speaker 1: losing Congress because they let Joe Mansion and Christmas Cinema 1979 01:47:17,680 --> 01:47:21,639 Speaker 1: Newter the build back better, Bill, Um, you know, all 1980 01:47:21,720 --> 01:47:25,280 Speaker 1: of those things that can happen. I have hope, you know, 1981 01:47:25,360 --> 01:47:27,920 Speaker 1: which is not the same as optimism or a belief 1982 01:47:28,040 --> 01:47:30,880 Speaker 1: that things will be great or even even like a 1983 01:47:31,160 --> 01:47:33,800 Speaker 1: sense a lack of a sense of foreboding. I have 1984 01:47:33,960 --> 01:47:37,360 Speaker 1: that in spades. But I have hoped that when the 1985 01:47:37,479 --> 01:47:39,840 Speaker 1: next phase of the fight begins, that we will have 1986 01:47:40,120 --> 01:47:44,200 Speaker 1: many UM vulnerable spots we can strike at, and that 1987 01:47:44,840 --> 01:47:48,400 Speaker 1: we can capitalize on whichever victories we attain to find 1988 01:47:48,439 --> 01:47:52,240 Speaker 1: more vulnerabilities and move on. I think that's so important, 1989 01:47:52,360 --> 01:47:54,320 Speaker 1: and I think it goes in line with to bring 1990 01:47:54,400 --> 01:47:56,280 Speaker 1: up climate change again, the idea that like one of 1991 01:47:56,320 --> 01:47:58,679 Speaker 1: the most toxic things you can think are e climate 1992 01:47:58,800 --> 01:48:01,519 Speaker 1: change is that they're nothing to do. We're already past 1993 01:48:01,560 --> 01:48:04,120 Speaker 1: every point of no return and there's no there's no 1994 01:48:04,360 --> 01:48:06,400 Speaker 1: positive action because it just leads you to doing the 1995 01:48:06,479 --> 01:48:09,280 Speaker 1: same thing as the people who deny it. UM. And 1996 01:48:09,400 --> 01:48:13,040 Speaker 1: it's Yeah, I think it's it's very important to UM 1997 01:48:13,960 --> 01:48:16,240 Speaker 1: recognized that like, not only are there things you can do, 1998 01:48:16,360 --> 01:48:18,599 Speaker 1: but when you do those things, you start taking those steps, 1999 01:48:18,640 --> 01:48:23,160 Speaker 1: other steps reveal themselves. Yeah, And you know what, if 2000 01:48:23,160 --> 01:48:27,800 Speaker 1: you're feeling nihilistic about about climate. I'm nearly through Saul 2001 01:48:27,880 --> 01:48:31,640 Speaker 1: Griffith's book Electrify Uh. Saul's an old friend of mine. 2002 01:48:31,680 --> 01:48:35,400 Speaker 1: He's MacArthur Winner's electrical engineer, and he's just done the 2003 01:48:35,560 --> 01:48:37,519 Speaker 1: He's it's a popular engineering book. It's one of my 2004 01:48:37,600 --> 01:48:40,880 Speaker 1: favorite genres. They're like popular science books, except instead of 2005 01:48:40,960 --> 01:48:42,800 Speaker 1: telling you about how science works, they tell you about 2006 01:48:42,800 --> 01:48:46,320 Speaker 1: how engineering works. And he's basically like, here is why 2007 01:48:46,439 --> 01:48:49,200 Speaker 1: all the estimates of how much renewable as we need 2008 01:48:49,360 --> 01:48:55,200 Speaker 1: are hugely overestimated. And it's basically that like keeping uh 2009 01:48:55,560 --> 01:48:59,800 Speaker 1: fossil fuel power online requires a lot of fossil fuel, right, 2010 01:49:00,160 --> 01:49:03,920 Speaker 1: something like of that estimate is just it's the energy 2011 01:49:04,000 --> 01:49:06,680 Speaker 1: that we need to make the energy, and it's not 2012 01:49:06,880 --> 01:49:09,800 Speaker 1: present in electrical models. Here's how we can manufacture it. 2013 01:49:09,840 --> 01:49:12,320 Speaker 1: Here's how we can distribute it. Here is basically how 2014 01:49:13,160 --> 01:49:17,960 Speaker 1: if we can figure out the financing, Americans can UH 2015 01:49:18,360 --> 01:49:21,160 Speaker 1: spend less money every year than they do now to 2016 01:49:21,320 --> 01:49:24,240 Speaker 1: get more stuff that they love every year. That we 2017 01:49:24,320 --> 01:49:28,599 Speaker 1: can do this without hair shirts. It's a spectacular book. Um, 2018 01:49:28,760 --> 01:49:31,679 Speaker 1: And you know, I don't agree with everything Saul says 2019 01:49:31,720 --> 01:49:35,800 Speaker 1: every all the time, but he is very careful about 2020 01:49:36,120 --> 01:49:40,120 Speaker 1: his technical facts. There aren't technical errors in this. There 2021 01:49:40,200 --> 01:49:42,600 Speaker 1: might be assumptions that we disagree with, but as a 2022 01:49:42,680 --> 01:49:46,000 Speaker 1: technical matter, he's basically written a piece of design fiction 2023 01:49:46,439 --> 01:49:50,200 Speaker 1: in which, over the next fifteen years, using clever finance 2024 01:49:50,439 --> 01:49:54,920 Speaker 1: and and solid engineering, we really actually do avert the 2025 01:49:55,000 --> 01:49:59,360 Speaker 1: climate emergency. And Yeah, as always, kind of the main 2026 01:50:00,040 --> 01:50:02,680 Speaker 1: barriers to doing the best version of the thing is 2027 01:50:03,000 --> 01:50:05,720 Speaker 1: the political realities on the ground. You know, you have 2028 01:50:05,920 --> 01:50:08,400 Speaker 1: to but I think that's the that's the value of 2029 01:50:08,479 --> 01:50:11,639 Speaker 1: at least trying to make it clear that there are options. 2030 01:50:12,760 --> 01:50:15,519 Speaker 1: I wanted to shift for a moment um. I was 2031 01:50:15,600 --> 01:50:18,800 Speaker 1: thinking recently about I think probably the earliest back book 2032 01:50:18,800 --> 01:50:22,559 Speaker 1: of yours that I've read, Pirate Cinema, which is heavily involved. 2033 01:50:22,600 --> 01:50:25,519 Speaker 1: I think I'm gonna you know, if you're one of 2034 01:50:25,560 --> 01:50:28,160 Speaker 1: the folks like me who was on the Internet back 2035 01:50:28,240 --> 01:50:31,200 Speaker 1: when you know, file sharing sites, when that was a 2036 01:50:31,280 --> 01:50:33,760 Speaker 1: huge topic of discussion, when the r i A Was 2037 01:50:33,840 --> 01:50:37,680 Speaker 1: going after people, when like copyright was kind of a 2038 01:50:38,200 --> 01:50:43,200 Speaker 1: a much more prevalent part of kind of the online discourse. Um, 2039 01:50:43,479 --> 01:50:45,560 Speaker 1: it deals a lot in that and these kind of 2040 01:50:45,760 --> 01:50:48,560 Speaker 1: I think there's elements of it that kind of prefigured 2041 01:50:48,640 --> 01:50:53,080 Speaker 1: what Disney has done buying up every imaginable fictional property 2042 01:50:53,120 --> 01:50:55,439 Speaker 1: in the world. And that's kind of the the elements 2043 01:50:55,479 --> 01:50:58,519 Speaker 1: of dystopia that book deals with is is, you know, 2044 01:50:58,600 --> 01:51:02,240 Speaker 1: the attempts of these this, these giant multinational entertainment corporations 2045 01:51:02,320 --> 01:51:05,719 Speaker 1: to shut down the free tape trading of ideas, remixing 2046 01:51:05,760 --> 01:51:08,719 Speaker 1: and all that stuff. And then kind of thinking about 2047 01:51:08,720 --> 01:51:11,559 Speaker 1: the difference between the focus of that and the focus 2048 01:51:11,640 --> 01:51:14,519 Speaker 1: of books like Attack Surface, where you're really delving more into, 2049 01:51:15,320 --> 01:51:18,120 Speaker 1: you know, I the fictional versions of real life companies 2050 01:51:18,160 --> 01:51:22,160 Speaker 1: like Tiger Swan that do it, uh the surveillance on 2051 01:51:22,760 --> 01:51:25,320 Speaker 1: protesters and all around the world, and that are kind 2052 01:51:25,320 --> 01:51:29,120 Speaker 1: of using tactics that were pioneered by other contractors and 2053 01:51:29,200 --> 01:51:33,120 Speaker 1: like Iraq and Afghanistan years earlier. I guess kind of 2054 01:51:33,160 --> 01:51:35,000 Speaker 1: the things that I find interesting about that as as 2055 01:51:35,040 --> 01:51:37,519 Speaker 1: I can remember, when I was first on the Internet, 2056 01:51:37,680 --> 01:51:41,400 Speaker 1: the big social kind of crusades online with the people 2057 01:51:42,080 --> 01:51:44,280 Speaker 1: that that I paid attention to at least, was all 2058 01:51:44,320 --> 01:51:47,040 Speaker 1: around copyright. It was about not just you know, the 2059 01:51:47,080 --> 01:51:50,639 Speaker 1: attempts to stop people from remixing and sharing copyrighted work, 2060 01:51:50,720 --> 01:51:55,320 Speaker 1: but about um attempts to like buy up copyrights and 2061 01:51:55,560 --> 01:52:01,160 Speaker 1: like into these these ever kind of larger uh agglomerations, 2062 01:52:01,280 --> 01:52:04,120 Speaker 1: and and that's kind of hit. It seems to have 2063 01:52:04,240 --> 01:52:06,880 Speaker 1: hit like a terminal point with the you know, movies 2064 01:52:06,960 --> 01:52:09,880 Speaker 1: like Ready Player one and kind of a lot of 2065 01:52:09,920 --> 01:52:11,920 Speaker 1: the stuff we're seeing in Marble where everything is showing 2066 01:52:12,000 --> 01:52:16,720 Speaker 1: up everywhere Space Jam two. UM. I guess the part 2067 01:52:16,800 --> 01:52:19,120 Speaker 1: of it that feels less dystopian the days attempts to 2068 01:52:19,160 --> 01:52:22,080 Speaker 1: crack down on file sharing, which I don't think went 2069 01:52:22,360 --> 01:52:24,880 Speaker 1: kind of in the worst case scenario. I'm interested actually 2070 01:52:24,960 --> 01:52:27,439 Speaker 1: in your thoughts on that, um, because I can remember, 2071 01:52:27,479 --> 01:52:30,000 Speaker 1: you know, when the r I A would be threatening 2072 01:52:30,040 --> 01:52:33,000 Speaker 1: people with years in jail and whatnot over sharing stuff 2073 01:52:33,000 --> 01:52:35,600 Speaker 1: on kaza we seem to be I don't know. Is 2074 01:52:35,640 --> 01:52:37,519 Speaker 1: it just that it gets less like I'm interested in 2075 01:52:37,560 --> 01:52:38,800 Speaker 1: your in your thoughts on that. Is it just that 2076 01:52:38,880 --> 01:52:42,120 Speaker 1: it's less publicized when they cracked down on people, or 2077 01:52:42,200 --> 01:52:44,240 Speaker 1: has kind of the nature of their response to that 2078 01:52:44,360 --> 01:52:47,240 Speaker 1: really changed. Well. I think that what's happened with the 2079 01:52:47,960 --> 01:52:50,760 Speaker 1: kind of steady state of the copyright wars has been 2080 01:52:50,800 --> 01:52:54,960 Speaker 1: the introduction of um brittleness and fragility into our speech 2081 01:52:55,000 --> 01:52:59,679 Speaker 1: platforms like Twitter, UH and and Facebook and YouTube, where 2082 01:52:59,720 --> 01:53:03,080 Speaker 1: it's very easy to get material removed by by making 2083 01:53:03,160 --> 01:53:06,360 Speaker 1: copyright claims UM. And you know, we see that with 2084 01:53:06,560 --> 01:53:09,880 Speaker 1: the sleazier side of the reputation management industry, where they 2085 01:53:10,040 --> 01:53:14,960 Speaker 1: use bogus copyright claims to take down criticisms. You know, 2086 01:53:15,080 --> 01:53:18,120 Speaker 1: there was a group of leftists who are really celebrating 2087 01:53:18,320 --> 01:53:21,160 Speaker 1: the idea that if you if Nazis were marching in 2088 01:53:21,240 --> 01:53:24,120 Speaker 1: your town, you could stop them from uploading their videos 2089 01:53:24,200 --> 01:53:26,880 Speaker 1: by playing copyrighted music in the background. And I was like, 2090 01:53:27,439 --> 01:53:30,040 Speaker 1: you have no idea, what a terrible fucking idea that is. 2091 01:53:30,439 --> 01:53:33,080 Speaker 1: And you know, within a couple of years, cops and 2092 01:53:33,160 --> 01:53:35,559 Speaker 1: Beverly Hills were doing it. Whenever people tried to film 2093 01:53:35,600 --> 01:53:37,639 Speaker 1: the police there, they would just turn on some Taylor 2094 01:53:37,720 --> 01:53:40,720 Speaker 1: Swift to try and stop uploading UM. You know, the 2095 01:53:41,080 --> 01:53:45,679 Speaker 1: thing about the copyright wars is that the real action 2096 01:53:45,880 --> 01:53:51,320 Speaker 1: turned out to be in UM wage theft through monopolization. So, 2097 01:53:51,560 --> 01:53:57,080 Speaker 1: you know, the neutering and destruction of label independent music 2098 01:53:57,160 --> 01:54:01,280 Speaker 1: distribution platforms like Khazah or grow Ster or Napster, and 2099 01:54:01,400 --> 01:54:04,800 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court decision, the Groster decision that supported that 2100 01:54:05,760 --> 01:54:08,679 Speaker 1: meant that the only UM way that you could launch 2101 01:54:08,720 --> 01:54:11,839 Speaker 1: a service like that was in cooperation with the big labels, 2102 01:54:12,479 --> 01:54:16,839 Speaker 1: and the you know, most successful one is Spotify. Spotify 2103 01:54:16,960 --> 01:54:20,559 Speaker 1: is actually partially owned by the labels, and the labels 2104 01:54:20,640 --> 01:54:24,880 Speaker 1: use that ownership stake to negotiate a kind of formalized 2105 01:54:24,920 --> 01:54:29,880 Speaker 1: wage theft where they allowed for a lower purse stream 2106 01:54:30,000 --> 01:54:33,120 Speaker 1: rate because when they get royalties for a stream, part 2107 01:54:33,200 --> 01:54:37,040 Speaker 1: of that money goes to their musicians, and that meant 2108 01:54:37,080 --> 01:54:40,760 Speaker 1: that the firm Spotify retain more profits which it returned 2109 01:54:40,800 --> 01:54:43,720 Speaker 1: to it in the form of higher dividends, and dividends 2110 01:54:43,800 --> 01:54:46,800 Speaker 1: go just straight to their shareholders. They don't that there's 2111 01:54:46,840 --> 01:54:49,760 Speaker 1: no claim that musicians can make on this. And because 2112 01:54:49,800 --> 01:54:53,640 Speaker 1: they set the benchmark rate, it meant that everyone, irrespective 2113 01:54:53,680 --> 01:54:55,080 Speaker 1: of whether you were assigned to one of the big 2114 01:54:55,120 --> 01:55:00,200 Speaker 1: three labels, ended up getting the same perse stream eight 2115 01:55:00,400 --> 01:55:04,040 Speaker 1: as as Universal's artists. So they were able to structure 2116 01:55:04,120 --> 01:55:07,240 Speaker 1: the whole market. In the meantime, in the industrial side, 2117 01:55:07,760 --> 01:55:10,600 Speaker 1: UH copyright laws, notably Section twelve of one of the 2118 01:55:10,640 --> 01:55:15,240 Speaker 1: Digital Millennium Copyright Act, which is a law past that 2119 01:55:15,400 --> 01:55:19,120 Speaker 1: makes it a felony to remove DRM to bypass a 2120 01:55:19,200 --> 01:55:22,760 Speaker 1: technical protection measure UM that has become the go to 2121 01:55:23,120 --> 01:55:29,040 Speaker 1: system for blocking repair interoperability UH and to prevent third 2122 01:55:29,080 --> 01:55:33,800 Speaker 1: parties from um UH from from creating services or add 2123 01:55:33,880 --> 01:55:39,040 Speaker 1: ons that accomplish positive ends like improved accessibility, improved security, 2124 01:55:39,720 --> 01:55:43,200 Speaker 1: um AD blocking and privacy and so on. They just say, well, 2125 01:55:43,280 --> 01:55:45,960 Speaker 1: you know, we we put a one molecule thick layer 2126 01:55:46,000 --> 01:55:48,680 Speaker 1: of DRM around say YouTube, and when you make a 2127 01:55:48,760 --> 01:55:53,320 Speaker 1: YouTube downloader for archival purposes or whatever, UM, you you 2128 01:55:53,440 --> 01:55:57,800 Speaker 1: just create a um A UH, you bypass our technical 2129 01:55:57,880 --> 01:56:00,920 Speaker 1: protection measure. And so you're committing a elmy and you 2130 01:56:00,920 --> 01:56:02,960 Speaker 1: can go to prison for five years and and pay 2131 01:56:03,000 --> 01:56:06,160 Speaker 1: a five dollar fine. And so you have this like 2132 01:56:06,280 --> 01:56:11,920 Speaker 1: relentless monotonic expansion of DRM into like automotive tractors. Medtronic 2133 01:56:12,080 --> 01:56:15,680 Speaker 1: uses it to block people from fixing ventilators. UM. So 2134 01:56:16,080 --> 01:56:21,000 Speaker 1: you know, this, this UM assault on the ability to 2135 01:56:21,160 --> 01:56:25,760 Speaker 1: reconfigure a technology that is ever more prevalent in our 2136 01:56:25,880 --> 01:56:28,920 Speaker 1: lives and that increasingly holds our lives in its in 2137 01:56:29,000 --> 01:56:32,320 Speaker 1: its hands right its choices determine whether we live or die, 2138 01:56:32,720 --> 01:56:35,800 Speaker 1: has been really consequential. And I know, we don't really 2139 01:56:35,840 --> 01:56:37,880 Speaker 1: think of it as a copyright problem. We think of 2140 01:56:37,920 --> 01:56:39,879 Speaker 1: it as right to repair. We think of a security 2141 01:56:39,920 --> 01:56:44,040 Speaker 1: auditing our accessibility. But the rule that is being used 2142 01:56:44,080 --> 01:56:47,520 Speaker 1: to block into operability is a copyright law. It's what 2143 01:56:47,960 --> 01:56:50,480 Speaker 1: printer companies used to stop you from buying third party 2144 01:56:50,560 --> 01:56:53,520 Speaker 1: inc um. It's what Apple uses to stop you from 2145 01:56:53,560 --> 01:56:55,840 Speaker 1: installing a third party app store. And you know the 2146 01:56:55,920 --> 01:56:58,400 Speaker 1: absence of a third party app store is why when 2147 01:56:58,480 --> 01:57:03,320 Speaker 1: Apple removed all the working VPNs in China, Chinese users 2148 01:57:03,400 --> 01:57:05,760 Speaker 1: couldn't just switch to another app store that had working 2149 01:57:05,880 --> 01:57:09,760 Speaker 1: VPNs in it. And so you know that this um 2150 01:57:10,400 --> 01:57:12,360 Speaker 1: endgame of the copyright wars is I think a lot 2151 01:57:12,440 --> 01:57:18,880 Speaker 1: more dystopian than merely suing college kids. Uh, it's it's 2152 01:57:18,960 --> 01:57:22,120 Speaker 1: actually really screwed us in ways that are that are 2153 01:57:22,960 --> 01:57:26,520 Speaker 1: hard to fathom. Yeah, it's a fascinating example of kind 2154 01:57:26,520 --> 01:57:29,440 Speaker 1: of dystopic creep because, at least kind of from my 2155 01:57:29,880 --> 01:57:32,600 Speaker 1: more more ignorant position. When I was nineteen, I was 2156 01:57:32,640 --> 01:57:35,240 Speaker 1: like worried that all of these these people remixing music 2157 01:57:35,360 --> 01:57:37,400 Speaker 1: and movies that I liked, like we're going to get 2158 01:57:37,440 --> 01:57:40,880 Speaker 1: cracked down on or have their stuff pulled um, and 2159 01:57:41,480 --> 01:57:43,880 Speaker 1: the the kind of thing that I didn't I don't 2160 01:57:43,920 --> 01:57:46,400 Speaker 1: think a lot of people saw coming until it hit. 2161 01:57:46,520 --> 01:57:48,680 Speaker 1: I certainly didn't was what you were just talking about 2162 01:57:48,680 --> 01:57:51,640 Speaker 1: the fact that kind of the logic of how these 2163 01:57:51,800 --> 01:57:54,720 Speaker 1: these entertainment companies were looking at like an album or 2164 01:57:54,960 --> 01:57:56,880 Speaker 1: you know, a movie, and and cutting up pieces of 2165 01:57:56,960 --> 01:57:59,800 Speaker 1: that they've they've applied to like a tractor, you know, 2166 01:58:00,080 --> 01:58:02,160 Speaker 1: and now you can't like repair your John Deer or 2167 01:58:02,240 --> 01:58:05,400 Speaker 1: modify your John Deer so it works better. And then 2168 01:58:05,720 --> 01:58:07,880 Speaker 1: you know, you get situations like we just kind of 2169 01:58:07,960 --> 01:58:10,520 Speaker 1: averted with the John Deere strike, where there was a 2170 01:58:10,600 --> 01:58:12,680 Speaker 1: very real possibility that we wouldn't be able to get 2171 01:58:12,720 --> 01:58:14,560 Speaker 1: a large chunk of a harvest because there wouldn't be 2172 01:58:14,640 --> 01:58:16,280 Speaker 1: parts and you can't put your own in. And that's 2173 01:58:16,720 --> 01:58:19,040 Speaker 1: to think that that the thought process that led us 2174 01:58:19,080 --> 01:58:23,680 Speaker 1: there started with like trying to protect Metallica. In some ways, 2175 01:58:23,680 --> 01:58:26,080 Speaker 1: it's kind of funny. And this is why the anti 2176 01:58:26,120 --> 01:58:29,640 Speaker 1: monopoly critique is great because it shows you that there's 2177 01:58:29,680 --> 01:58:32,760 Speaker 1: cause for solidarity between John Deere tractor owners and John 2178 01:58:32,800 --> 01:58:37,520 Speaker 1: Deere tractor UH makers the workers who work there, because 2179 01:58:37,600 --> 01:58:40,840 Speaker 1: the same force that has allowed John Deere to cram 2180 01:58:41,000 --> 01:58:44,920 Speaker 1: down its workforce for forty years is the is the 2181 01:58:45,040 --> 01:58:48,640 Speaker 1: force that allows it to um UH take away the 2182 01:58:48,760 --> 01:58:53,520 Speaker 1: agency and economic liberties of farmers who own John Deer tractors, 2183 01:58:54,040 --> 01:58:56,600 Speaker 1: and it's it's the it's the political power that comes 2184 01:58:56,680 --> 01:58:59,280 Speaker 1: with monopoly. And so you know, if John Deere were 2185 01:58:59,280 --> 01:59:03,320 Speaker 1: a smaller, weaker firm, it would be less able to 2186 01:59:03,560 --> 01:59:07,520 Speaker 1: resist both the claims of its workforce and the claims 2187 01:59:07,680 --> 01:59:12,440 Speaker 1: of its um uh customers. Mhm yeah, I mean that 2188 01:59:12,520 --> 01:59:14,520 Speaker 1: makes that makes sense, And it is like I like 2189 01:59:14,680 --> 01:59:17,400 Speaker 1: that idea of of because it's not just kind of 2190 01:59:17,480 --> 01:59:21,920 Speaker 1: solidarity between John Deere purchasers UM and and the people 2191 01:59:21,920 --> 01:59:24,520 Speaker 1: who work in the factories. It's also there's kind of 2192 01:59:24,640 --> 01:59:30,240 Speaker 1: solidarity between a wide like anyone concerned with UM copyright. 2193 01:59:31,200 --> 01:59:33,920 Speaker 1: It's a much broader base of solidarity than just people 2194 01:59:33,960 --> 01:59:36,800 Speaker 1: who are worried about you know, what's happening uh to 2195 01:59:36,960 --> 01:59:39,960 Speaker 1: fiction or like what Disney is doing to like copyrights 2196 01:59:39,960 --> 01:59:42,120 Speaker 1: around Mickey Mouse or whatever. Like it's it. You can 2197 01:59:42,400 --> 01:59:45,480 Speaker 1: you can draw in concerns UM from right to repair 2198 01:59:45,600 --> 01:59:48,560 Speaker 1: to a bunch of other things, which potentially means there's 2199 01:59:48,880 --> 01:59:52,040 Speaker 1: there's a greater body of people available for action if 2200 01:59:52,040 --> 01:59:56,080 Speaker 1: you can make them see kind of UM converging interests there, 2201 01:59:56,160 --> 01:59:58,320 Speaker 1: which is I think is an interesting idea. Well, I 2202 01:59:58,360 --> 02:00:00,760 Speaker 1: think you're getting something really important. And this is um 2203 02:00:01,120 --> 02:00:03,720 Speaker 1: This comes from James Boyle, who's a copyright scholar at 2204 02:00:03,800 --> 02:00:06,920 Speaker 1: Duke University and was really involved and found in creative 2205 02:00:06,960 --> 02:00:10,320 Speaker 1: commons and in those early copyright fights. And and Jamie 2206 02:00:10,520 --> 02:00:13,520 Speaker 1: makes an analogy to the coining of the term ecology. 2207 02:00:14,080 --> 02:00:16,400 Speaker 1: And he says that before the term ecology came along, 2208 02:00:16,800 --> 02:00:18,640 Speaker 1: you know, someone us cared about owls and someone us 2209 02:00:18,680 --> 02:00:21,200 Speaker 1: cared about the ozone layer. But it wasn't really clear 2210 02:00:21,320 --> 02:00:23,920 Speaker 1: that we were on the same side. You know, it's 2211 02:00:23,960 --> 02:00:26,280 Speaker 1: not clear if you're Martian looking through a telescope, you 2212 02:00:26,360 --> 02:00:28,760 Speaker 1: might be hard pressed to explain why. You know, the 2213 02:00:28,840 --> 02:00:33,480 Speaker 1: destiny of charismatic charismatic nocturnal birds and the gaseous composition 2214 02:00:33,520 --> 02:00:36,440 Speaker 1: of the upper atmosphere were the same issue. Right in 2215 02:00:36,480 --> 02:00:39,560 Speaker 1: the term ecology. Let all these people who cared about 2216 02:00:39,600 --> 02:00:42,840 Speaker 1: different things find a single point to rally around. It 2217 02:00:42,920 --> 02:00:46,280 Speaker 1: turned a thousand issues into one movement. And I think 2218 02:00:46,320 --> 02:00:48,720 Speaker 1: that in the in the course of resisting corporate power, 2219 02:00:48,800 --> 02:00:51,839 Speaker 1: which is to say, resisting monopoly, we have the potential 2220 02:00:51,960 --> 02:00:55,600 Speaker 1: to weld together people from very diverse fields. You know, 2221 02:00:55,800 --> 02:00:58,480 Speaker 1: farmers and and people who make tractors. Sure, but you know, 2222 02:00:58,920 --> 02:01:02,480 Speaker 1: if you grew up watching professional wrestling and now you're 2223 02:01:02,560 --> 02:01:05,800 Speaker 1: aghast that the wrestlers that you loved are begging on 2224 02:01:05,960 --> 02:01:09,240 Speaker 1: go fund me for pennies to die with dignity. You know, 2225 02:01:09,480 --> 02:01:12,000 Speaker 1: once someone explains to the reason that that's happening is 2226 02:01:12,080 --> 02:01:15,200 Speaker 1: that thirty wrestling leagues became one wrestling league that was 2227 02:01:15,240 --> 02:01:19,520 Speaker 1: able to practice worker's classification, turn those performers into contractors, 2228 02:01:19,640 --> 02:01:21,840 Speaker 1: take away their health insurance, and leave them to die. 2229 02:01:22,360 --> 02:01:24,200 Speaker 1: Then suddenly you're on the same side of the people 2230 02:01:24,200 --> 02:01:26,760 Speaker 1: who were worried about big tech and big tractor, and 2231 02:01:26,880 --> 02:01:28,600 Speaker 1: the people are worried about the fact that there's only 2232 02:01:28,680 --> 02:01:33,040 Speaker 1: one manufacturer of cheerleading uniform uniforms, and two manufacturers of 2233 02:01:33,080 --> 02:01:36,960 Speaker 1: athletic shoes, and two manufacturers of spirits, and two manufacturers 2234 02:01:37,000 --> 02:01:40,600 Speaker 1: of beer, one manufacturer of eyewear that also owns all 2235 02:01:40,720 --> 02:01:43,960 Speaker 1: the eye wear stores and the eyewear ensure. You know 2236 02:01:44,080 --> 02:01:46,520 Speaker 1: that Duff Beer thing from the early Simpsons, where there's 2237 02:01:46,560 --> 02:01:53,400 Speaker 1: like Duff Beer, Rispberry thing, Dulci Gabana, Oliver, People's Boushan, 2238 02:01:53,480 --> 02:01:57,040 Speaker 1: Loam Versaci. Every eyewear brand you've ever heard of is 2239 02:01:57,160 --> 02:02:02,080 Speaker 1: one company coach all of them and They also own 2240 02:02:02,240 --> 02:02:07,120 Speaker 1: Sunglass Hut and uh Target Optical and Sears Optical and 2241 02:02:07,640 --> 02:02:11,240 Speaker 1: lens Crafters and spec Savers and every other eyewear story 2242 02:02:11,240 --> 02:02:14,040 Speaker 1: you've ever heard of. And they bought all the labs 2243 02:02:14,120 --> 02:02:16,200 Speaker 1: that make the lenses, so more than half the lenses 2244 02:02:16,240 --> 02:02:19,240 Speaker 1: in the world come from them. A division called and 2245 02:02:19,760 --> 02:02:22,360 Speaker 1: they bought imed, which is the company that bought all 2246 02:02:22,440 --> 02:02:25,400 Speaker 1: the insurance companies that ensure I Wear, and so they're 2247 02:02:25,440 --> 02:02:28,640 Speaker 1: also the company that's ensuring your glasses, your your eyes 2248 02:02:29,000 --> 02:02:32,600 Speaker 1: one company, and I Wear costs a thousand percent more 2249 02:02:32,640 --> 02:02:36,240 Speaker 1: than it did a decade ago. They stole our fucking eyes, right, 2250 02:02:36,440 --> 02:02:39,360 Speaker 1: So people who care about that have common cause with 2251 02:02:39,440 --> 02:02:42,080 Speaker 1: people who care about wrestlers and people who care about 2252 02:02:42,120 --> 02:02:45,160 Speaker 1: beer and big tech and the fact that there's four 2253 02:02:45,200 --> 02:02:48,400 Speaker 1: shipping companies and they have no competitive pressure and so 2254 02:02:48,480 --> 02:02:50,440 Speaker 1: they just keep building bigger ships that gets stuck in 2255 02:02:50,480 --> 02:02:55,680 Speaker 1: the fucking Suez canal Right, we're all on the same side. Yeah, 2256 02:02:55,880 --> 02:02:59,680 Speaker 1: And I I like the idea that I like. I 2257 02:02:59,800 --> 02:03:03,680 Speaker 1: like hoping that that kind of inherent solidarity, if you 2258 02:03:03,760 --> 02:03:06,840 Speaker 1: can point it out to people, is potentially an antidote 2259 02:03:07,160 --> 02:03:09,080 Speaker 1: to or at least a partial antidote to the level 2260 02:03:09,160 --> 02:03:12,720 Speaker 1: of the layer of politicization that's fallen down over everything, um, 2261 02:03:12,880 --> 02:03:16,080 Speaker 1: that stops people from actually considering matters but instead considering 2262 02:03:16,120 --> 02:03:17,920 Speaker 1: like I don't know, is this owning the libs right? 2263 02:03:18,320 --> 02:03:20,400 Speaker 1: Like if you if they if if you can get 2264 02:03:20,480 --> 02:03:22,800 Speaker 1: them to see that, like, yeah, their favorite wrestler is 2265 02:03:23,360 --> 02:03:26,480 Speaker 1: like dying because he couldn't afford insulin, and that that 2266 02:03:26,680 --> 02:03:29,120 Speaker 1: that's tied to the issue of like the reason his 2267 02:03:29,280 --> 02:03:31,920 Speaker 1: dad can't get tractor parts this year or whatever, um, 2268 02:03:32,080 --> 02:03:34,400 Speaker 1: And that that's tied to other issues that are maybe 2269 02:03:34,560 --> 02:03:38,520 Speaker 1: championed by people he would reflexively dismiss. But like, yeah, 2270 02:03:38,560 --> 02:03:41,600 Speaker 1: I I I find that really inspiring. It's still a 2271 02:03:41,680 --> 02:03:46,720 Speaker 1: significant there's a significant challenge for people who are trying 2272 02:03:46,800 --> 02:03:49,240 Speaker 1: to make those connections, for folks who are who are 2273 02:03:49,320 --> 02:03:53,080 Speaker 1: trying to like inform them of that state. I mean, yeah, 2274 02:03:53,160 --> 02:03:55,960 Speaker 1: that's true. And you know, like Steve Bannon will tell 2275 02:03:56,040 --> 02:03:58,839 Speaker 1: you that the reason to do cultural world culture culture 2276 02:03:58,920 --> 02:04:02,720 Speaker 1: war bullshit is because politics are down downstream from culture, 2277 02:04:02,760 --> 02:04:04,840 Speaker 1: and there's probably an element of truth to that. But 2278 02:04:04,960 --> 02:04:07,040 Speaker 1: I also think the reason that people find culture war 2279 02:04:07,120 --> 02:04:11,120 Speaker 1: bullshits so attractive is because they got nothing else. Yeah, 2280 02:04:12,280 --> 02:04:13,920 Speaker 1: I think we we talked about that a lot within 2281 02:04:13,960 --> 02:04:17,480 Speaker 1: the context of conservative for politics. I grew up very conservative, 2282 02:04:17,520 --> 02:04:20,160 Speaker 1: and I do remember how the tenor of things I 2283 02:04:20,280 --> 02:04:23,680 Speaker 1: was hearing through the bush ears changed from advocation of 2284 02:04:23,800 --> 02:04:27,360 Speaker 1: policies to just all culture war all the time, all 2285 02:04:27,720 --> 02:04:29,880 Speaker 1: all striking the dims all the time, and it was 2286 02:04:29,960 --> 02:04:33,800 Speaker 1: the kind of um it and that's not the only 2287 02:04:33,880 --> 02:04:35,560 Speaker 1: place that's happen. You see it on the left to 2288 02:04:35,840 --> 02:04:39,160 Speaker 1: absolutely like it's it's endemic. Now it's it's a poison 2289 02:04:39,240 --> 02:04:42,640 Speaker 1: and kind of the discourse. But I think that there's 2290 02:04:42,800 --> 02:04:44,920 Speaker 1: a lot that needs to be I think there's a 2291 02:04:44,960 --> 02:04:47,360 Speaker 1: lot to be discovered still for like how to break 2292 02:04:47,640 --> 02:04:50,920 Speaker 1: people out of that. I'm kind of bullish when we 2293 02:04:51,000 --> 02:04:52,760 Speaker 1: talk about these issues like you were bringing up with 2294 02:04:52,840 --> 02:04:55,360 Speaker 1: sort of the monopolization of these industries you wouldn't expect 2295 02:04:55,400 --> 02:04:59,440 Speaker 1: to be monopolized. I'm hopeful about the future that stuff 2296 02:04:59,480 --> 02:05:01,560 Speaker 1: like three deep printing presents for that. We have an 2297 02:05:01,680 --> 02:05:05,520 Speaker 1: organization in Portland that does kind of three D printing glasses, 2298 02:05:05,600 --> 02:05:08,200 Speaker 1: frames and stuff and is helping people with that sort 2299 02:05:08,240 --> 02:05:12,680 Speaker 1: of stuff. And I'm in conversations with like the four Thieves, 2300 02:05:12,800 --> 02:05:17,120 Speaker 1: Vinegar collective. I think it's called. UM. Yeah, some of 2301 02:05:17,160 --> 02:05:19,760 Speaker 1: the folks doing like trying to do working on pharmaceutical 2302 02:05:19,840 --> 02:05:24,320 Speaker 1: hacking making at the moment like lower cost uh kind 2303 02:05:24,360 --> 02:05:28,080 Speaker 1: of home scratch brood versions of like different aids medications, 2304 02:05:28,160 --> 02:05:32,360 Speaker 1: and the Holy Grail is doing that with um insulin effectively. 2305 02:05:33,040 --> 02:05:36,160 Speaker 1: UM And I think it is. And I do think 2306 02:05:36,240 --> 02:05:38,520 Speaker 1: one of the things that's exciting about that is because 2307 02:05:38,560 --> 02:05:41,000 Speaker 1: the way in which the way in which collaboration on 2308 02:05:41,120 --> 02:05:43,600 Speaker 1: three D printing works, in the way in which actually spreading, 2309 02:05:43,680 --> 02:05:45,920 Speaker 1: like the ability to do stuff works. I think it's 2310 02:05:45,960 --> 02:05:50,480 Speaker 1: synergizes nicely with the ability of people to kind of 2311 02:05:50,600 --> 02:05:53,080 Speaker 1: reach other folks through writing or other forms of content, 2312 02:05:53,120 --> 02:05:54,880 Speaker 1: because they can both spread through the same You can 2313 02:05:54,960 --> 02:05:57,000 Speaker 1: have a video or a story, and you can have 2314 02:05:57,200 --> 02:05:59,720 Speaker 1: like kind of embedded guides on how to do that. 2315 02:06:00,200 --> 02:06:03,440 Speaker 1: UM I I I don't know that I've I've runned 2316 02:06:03,600 --> 02:06:05,880 Speaker 1: into a lot of your writings on kind of the 2317 02:06:05,920 --> 02:06:08,440 Speaker 1: potential of three D printing in this space, But I'm interested, 2318 02:06:08,880 --> 02:06:11,560 Speaker 1: like to what do you do. Are you looking at 2319 02:06:11,600 --> 02:06:13,680 Speaker 1: that as kind of an area of hope or do 2320 02:06:13,760 --> 02:06:16,520 Speaker 1: you see that still is kind of too two niche 2321 02:06:16,600 --> 02:06:19,120 Speaker 1: and labor focus to really actually take off in the 2322 02:06:19,160 --> 02:06:21,080 Speaker 1: way that it would need to to crack some of 2323 02:06:21,120 --> 02:06:24,520 Speaker 1: these nuts. This is where I do my my woody Allen, 2324 02:06:24,880 --> 02:06:28,040 Speaker 1: you know nothing of my work stick because I had 2325 02:06:28,080 --> 02:06:32,920 Speaker 1: this novel Maker Makers in two thousand and eight. It's 2326 02:06:33,000 --> 02:06:36,720 Speaker 1: it's why uh Bree Pettis went out and founded Maker 2327 02:06:36,800 --> 02:06:40,840 Speaker 1: Bought uh and it's you know, credited with like kickstarting 2328 02:06:40,960 --> 02:06:44,280 Speaker 1: the homebrew three D printed revolution blah blah blah blah 2329 02:06:44,320 --> 02:06:47,320 Speaker 1: blah and um and it was a very bullish novel 2330 02:06:47,320 --> 02:06:50,879 Speaker 1: about three D printing. I um, you know, the reality 2331 02:06:50,960 --> 02:06:52,880 Speaker 1: hasn't lived up to the hype yet. It may just 2332 02:06:52,960 --> 02:06:55,040 Speaker 1: be that we're in the long trough of despair, as 2333 02:06:55,120 --> 02:06:59,040 Speaker 1: the Gardner hype cycle model has it. Uh. But you know, 2334 02:06:59,120 --> 02:07:02,960 Speaker 1: I think the problem with three D printing was that 2335 02:07:03,720 --> 02:07:05,960 Speaker 1: the patents had been concentrated into the hands of two 2336 02:07:06,080 --> 02:07:09,800 Speaker 1: large firms that had bought all their competitors, including Maker 2337 02:07:09,880 --> 02:07:13,600 Speaker 1: Bought and UM. When those patents finally expired. The big 2338 02:07:13,680 --> 02:07:17,520 Speaker 1: one was the laser centering of of powder patent expired. 2339 02:07:18,120 --> 02:07:20,120 Speaker 1: There just wasn't a big bang. And I think it's 2340 02:07:20,160 --> 02:07:23,440 Speaker 1: because the supply chain for it still had a lot 2341 02:07:23,480 --> 02:07:28,000 Speaker 1: of proprietary elements and so producing the powder and producing 2342 02:07:28,080 --> 02:07:33,400 Speaker 1: the components that allowed for that powder printing remained a 2343 02:07:33,560 --> 02:07:36,560 Speaker 1: very high bar, and so we just didn't see the 2344 02:07:36,680 --> 02:07:39,000 Speaker 1: kind of new industry emerged that we would have hoped for. 2345 02:07:39,600 --> 02:07:42,400 Speaker 1: And you know, it's like seven years since those patents expired. 2346 02:07:42,560 --> 02:07:44,880 Speaker 1: Five years since those patent expired. Now we're seeing a 2347 02:07:45,000 --> 02:07:47,560 Speaker 1: few more of those powder printers. You get a lot 2348 02:07:47,640 --> 02:07:51,800 Speaker 1: more like UVY cured epoxy printers because those came off 2349 02:07:51,840 --> 02:07:55,160 Speaker 1: patent earlier and they have a less complicated supply chain. Um. 2350 02:07:55,960 --> 02:07:58,880 Speaker 1: But still, I mean mostly when we talked about printers, 2351 02:07:58,960 --> 02:08:02,480 Speaker 1: we're talking about filament, and just filaments just not a 2352 02:08:02,600 --> 02:08:05,760 Speaker 1: great technology. It's been pushed in ways that you wouldn't 2353 02:08:05,800 --> 02:08:08,480 Speaker 1: even believe, and people have figured out how to do 2354 02:08:08,920 --> 02:08:14,360 Speaker 1: absolutely incredible things with it. But it's not it's not 2355 02:08:14,640 --> 02:08:17,360 Speaker 1: something that you would make aerospace components for, you know, 2356 02:08:17,640 --> 02:08:21,760 Speaker 1: it's it's it's something that you make, um novelty dungeons 2357 02:08:21,800 --> 02:08:25,720 Speaker 1: and dragons dice, which is an important industry to disrupt. 2358 02:08:25,760 --> 02:08:28,480 Speaker 1: Don't get me wrong, but I'm with you, with you. 2359 02:08:28,680 --> 02:08:30,600 Speaker 1: I can remember paying thirty bucks for a set of 2360 02:08:30,680 --> 02:08:33,640 Speaker 1: dice as a kid and thinking somebody's gotta fix this scam. 2361 02:08:34,840 --> 02:08:37,520 Speaker 1: I can put you something for Christmas, Robert, Thank you Garrison. 2362 02:08:37,600 --> 02:08:39,760 Speaker 1: And you know now I I own a I bought 2363 02:08:39,800 --> 02:08:41,520 Speaker 1: a comic con a couple of years ago. I bought 2364 02:08:41,560 --> 02:08:44,440 Speaker 1: a tiny little D twenty made out of meteoric or 2365 02:08:45,200 --> 02:08:48,120 Speaker 1: I have a sky metal D twenty. Oh now that's yeah, 2366 02:08:48,320 --> 02:08:52,280 Speaker 1: that's that's classy. Um. I'm curious. We've got a little 2367 02:08:52,280 --> 02:08:54,000 Speaker 1: bit of time left, and I wanted to ask in 2368 02:08:54,080 --> 02:08:56,600 Speaker 1: your your novel Attack Surface. I know it was released 2369 02:08:57,400 --> 02:09:01,720 Speaker 1: right October if I'm not mistaken, um, And obviously a 2370 02:09:01,800 --> 02:09:03,760 Speaker 1: lot of that deals with again these kind of like 2371 02:09:05,360 --> 02:09:07,800 Speaker 1: corporations that have been contractors for the D O D 2372 02:09:07,960 --> 02:09:11,640 Speaker 1: doing like fucked up surveillance shit in Iraq and Afghanistan, 2373 02:09:12,040 --> 02:09:15,080 Speaker 1: bringing that technology to crack down on like US uh, 2374 02:09:15,240 --> 02:09:18,640 Speaker 1: sort of dissident left wing political movements. It comes out 2375 02:09:18,720 --> 02:09:22,000 Speaker 1: the year that we have a nationwide kind of uprising. 2376 02:09:22,360 --> 02:09:25,760 Speaker 1: Um that a lot of fucked up surveillance ship that 2377 02:09:25,800 --> 02:09:28,080 Speaker 1: had been kind of demoed state side around it like 2378 02:09:28,240 --> 02:09:30,840 Speaker 1: Standing Rock and whatnot, gets gets really put into its 2379 02:09:30,880 --> 02:09:36,080 Speaker 1: own How much of that was written before ship went down? 2380 02:09:36,240 --> 02:09:38,880 Speaker 1: And I and I'm assuming like I don't know exactly 2381 02:09:38,920 --> 02:09:41,280 Speaker 1: how your process works, but I'm wondering, like I assume 2382 02:09:41,320 --> 02:09:44,160 Speaker 1: you started the project before everything went the way it 2383 02:09:44,240 --> 02:09:47,040 Speaker 1: did last summer. How much did kind of what happened 2384 02:09:47,120 --> 02:09:51,520 Speaker 1: last summer affect the way you imagined that technology in 2385 02:09:51,600 --> 02:09:55,040 Speaker 1: those tactics functioning in that book. Yeah, the the timeline 2386 02:09:55,080 --> 02:09:59,560 Speaker 1: goes the other direction. I wrote that book before the 2387 02:10:00,040 --> 02:10:03,720 Speaker 1: are uprising, um long, long, long long before that, and 2388 02:10:03,800 --> 02:10:07,200 Speaker 1: I wrote it about things like, um, the surveillance technology 2389 02:10:07,280 --> 02:10:11,080 Speaker 1: we saw in Belarus and chev and also at Occupy 2390 02:10:11,240 --> 02:10:16,240 Speaker 1: and Standing Rock and at other Black Lives Matter demonstrations 2391 02:10:16,280 --> 02:10:20,160 Speaker 1: and uprisings in Americans. Yeah, and if you you know, 2392 02:10:20,360 --> 02:10:27,040 Speaker 1: also the monotonic expansion of surveillance leagues right where you know, 2393 02:10:27,200 --> 02:10:30,160 Speaker 1: first we learned about MC catchers, and then we learned 2394 02:10:30,200 --> 02:10:33,160 Speaker 1: about dirt boxes, which are MC catchers on airplanes, and 2395 02:10:33,680 --> 02:10:36,160 Speaker 1: you know, like we just all of that stuff leaked 2396 02:10:36,240 --> 02:10:39,480 Speaker 1: like crazy because you know, these surveillance giants are are 2397 02:10:39,600 --> 02:10:43,600 Speaker 1: not good at what they do, right, which isn't a 2398 02:10:43,640 --> 02:10:46,960 Speaker 1: reason we should be hopeful. A company that's bad at 2399 02:10:47,000 --> 02:10:50,600 Speaker 1: what it does is in some ways even worse because 2400 02:10:50,680 --> 02:10:54,520 Speaker 1: one of the ways that they're incompetence expresses itself is 2401 02:10:54,560 --> 02:10:56,720 Speaker 1: that they often gather a bunch of data on innocent 2402 02:10:56,800 --> 02:11:00,800 Speaker 1: people and then leak it. Yeah, right, not deliciously, just 2403 02:11:00,960 --> 02:11:06,880 Speaker 1: through incompetence. Um. And so you know, the this expansion 2404 02:11:06,920 --> 02:11:09,160 Speaker 1: of surveillance has like been on my mind for a 2405 02:11:09,280 --> 02:11:11,720 Speaker 1: long time, and I've been writing about it, well at 2406 02:11:11,760 --> 02:11:13,960 Speaker 1: least since Little Brother, Right, So two thousand and six, 2407 02:11:14,040 --> 02:11:17,840 Speaker 1: I wrote that novel, and I've had my finger in that. Yeah. 2408 02:11:17,960 --> 02:11:19,840 Speaker 1: So I've had my finger in that for all that time, 2409 02:11:20,680 --> 02:11:24,160 Speaker 1: and and working with the f F it's impossible to miss. Sure. 2410 02:11:25,360 --> 02:11:27,920 Speaker 1: Was there a degree to which, um, I don't know, 2411 02:11:27,960 --> 02:11:30,240 Speaker 1: I guess we're you surprised by anything that happened last time? 2412 02:11:30,360 --> 02:11:33,480 Speaker 1: Or did it just kind of comprehensively feel like these 2413 02:11:33,480 --> 02:11:35,800 Speaker 1: are everything slotting into place that I knew was heading 2414 02:11:35,840 --> 02:11:37,480 Speaker 1: in this direction? Because yeah, I mean you're right, I 2415 02:11:37,560 --> 02:11:42,000 Speaker 1: did like there was like everything was kind of presaged 2416 02:11:42,440 --> 02:11:46,640 Speaker 1: um years before. I'm yeah, I I'm wondering if if 2417 02:11:46,680 --> 02:11:49,440 Speaker 1: there was anything that kind of surprised you, um, or 2418 02:11:49,600 --> 02:11:51,520 Speaker 1: was it was it all just sort of what you've 2419 02:11:51,520 --> 02:11:55,000 Speaker 1: been braced for. Yeah, I don't feel like there were 2420 02:11:55,160 --> 02:11:58,400 Speaker 1: any kind of surveillance surprises. I mean the reverse the 2421 02:12:00,080 --> 02:12:03,080 Speaker 1: use of reverse warrants. I think we all kind of 2422 02:12:03,680 --> 02:12:06,000 Speaker 1: assumed was going on. There had been hints of it 2423 02:12:06,160 --> 02:12:10,760 Speaker 1: in Google's warrant canarias beforehand. But you know, those defense warrants, 2424 02:12:10,800 --> 02:12:13,480 Speaker 1: which again, if you're like sitting there going oh gofense, 2425 02:12:13,520 --> 02:12:17,640 Speaker 1: warrants are awesome because they're catching the one six rioters, Like, dude, 2426 02:12:17,760 --> 02:12:21,120 Speaker 1: you are going to be so disappointed, Holy sh it, 2427 02:12:21,760 --> 02:12:25,800 Speaker 1: that's not where they're going to keep using this. Yeah. Um, So, 2428 02:12:26,000 --> 02:12:28,440 Speaker 1: you know, learning more about those reverse warrants I think 2429 02:12:28,600 --> 02:12:32,280 Speaker 1: was was interesting. Um, but I don't feel like, I 2430 02:12:32,400 --> 02:12:34,160 Speaker 1: don't well, off the top of my head, I can't 2431 02:12:34,160 --> 02:12:37,200 Speaker 1: say that there was any new technical stuff that emerged. 2432 02:12:37,240 --> 02:12:40,000 Speaker 1: You know. I I am kickstarted the audio book for 2433 02:12:40,240 --> 02:12:44,280 Speaker 1: Attack Surface. Uh, and I offered as like the top 2434 02:12:44,360 --> 02:12:47,520 Speaker 1: tier you could commission short stories in the Little Brother universe, 2435 02:12:48,120 --> 02:12:50,080 Speaker 1: and there were three of those and I just finished 2436 02:12:50,080 --> 02:12:53,040 Speaker 1: the first of them, and it's about um future pipeline 2437 02:12:53,080 --> 02:12:57,080 Speaker 1: protests and uh. You know, I spent a lot of 2438 02:12:57,160 --> 02:13:00,480 Speaker 1: time in my research looking at the survey that was 2439 02:13:00,560 --> 02:13:02,880 Speaker 1: done on the pipeline protests, and a lot of it 2440 02:13:03,000 --> 02:13:07,480 Speaker 1: was provocateurs and undercovers who were just terrible at their jobs, right, 2441 02:13:07,560 --> 02:13:11,760 Speaker 1: like the intercepts, long publication of of uh, you know, 2442 02:13:11,840 --> 02:13:14,920 Speaker 1: long documents about how those operators worked. They just like 2443 02:13:15,040 --> 02:13:18,320 Speaker 1: showed up in military haircuts and combat boots. And then 2444 02:13:18,360 --> 02:13:21,040 Speaker 1: we're like, hey, I'm from Portland and I'm here because 2445 02:13:21,040 --> 02:13:23,680 Speaker 1: we're gonna funk up some bad guys. Let's go do it. 2446 02:13:23,840 --> 02:13:27,080 Speaker 1: Let's go do violence and save Indian country. And like 2447 02:13:27,200 --> 02:13:29,280 Speaker 1: everyone was like you and like does anyone want to 2448 02:13:29,320 --> 02:13:34,600 Speaker 1: buy drugs? And and the actual protesters were like, you're 2449 02:13:34,640 --> 02:13:38,600 Speaker 1: a provocateur, like go away, you know, like they could tell. 2450 02:13:38,680 --> 02:13:40,160 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess you know, there are a lot 2451 02:13:40,240 --> 02:13:43,160 Speaker 1: more effective in the UK in infiltrating the climate movement. 2452 02:13:43,280 --> 02:13:47,240 Speaker 1: You know, they impregnated several protesters, so you know, and 2453 02:13:47,400 --> 02:13:50,400 Speaker 1: had long term relationships with them and raised kids with them. 2454 02:13:50,520 --> 02:13:54,200 Speaker 1: So there is that. But here stories yeah, here, it 2455 02:13:54,360 --> 02:13:58,840 Speaker 1: was not that we didn't just didn't see that incredible efficacy. Yeah, 2456 02:13:58,920 --> 02:14:01,640 Speaker 1: and I do think it. That's I think kind of 2457 02:14:01,720 --> 02:14:03,560 Speaker 1: the message I took out of it because I I 2458 02:14:03,760 --> 02:14:06,400 Speaker 1: was I started reporting on like dirt boxes back during 2459 02:14:06,480 --> 02:14:09,040 Speaker 1: Standing Rock, just having them like it explained to me 2460 02:14:09,160 --> 02:14:11,040 Speaker 1: by people who were on the ground when I showed 2461 02:14:11,120 --> 02:14:14,080 Speaker 1: up that like, yeah, there's this your like phones don't 2462 02:14:14,120 --> 02:14:15,760 Speaker 1: work the same out here, and like we're trying to 2463 02:14:15,800 --> 02:14:17,880 Speaker 1: figure out what's going on, but like everything is is 2464 02:14:18,040 --> 02:14:19,760 Speaker 1: and it's not just that we're out in the sticks 2465 02:14:19,880 --> 02:14:22,680 Speaker 1: or anything. And I think the only surprise, the big 2466 02:14:22,720 --> 02:14:25,400 Speaker 1: surprise for me last year was how I think how 2467 02:14:25,560 --> 02:14:29,880 Speaker 1: little the technology accomplished for them and how much it 2468 02:14:30,040 --> 02:14:32,080 Speaker 1: just it just wound up back down to violence. Was 2469 02:14:32,360 --> 02:14:34,360 Speaker 1: like that was kind of the for all of the 2470 02:14:34,720 --> 02:14:36,800 Speaker 1: toys they had. The toys that actually made the most 2471 02:14:36,840 --> 02:14:39,760 Speaker 1: difference was gassing and beating people and violence and like 2472 02:14:40,600 --> 02:14:43,720 Speaker 1: old fashioned informants that was that was the stuff, and 2473 02:14:43,800 --> 02:14:47,080 Speaker 1: just having a dude there. Yeah, they were really relied on. 2474 02:14:47,320 --> 02:14:49,720 Speaker 1: And the fact that you that that you, Corey, weren't 2475 02:14:49,720 --> 02:14:52,240 Speaker 1: super surprised, But anything last year I think kind of 2476 02:14:52,400 --> 02:14:55,200 Speaker 1: just more shows kind of the strength of your work 2477 02:14:55,280 --> 02:14:57,760 Speaker 1: in terms of how you're very good at seeing the 2478 02:14:57,880 --> 02:15:01,120 Speaker 1: trends that are already happening but taking them to their 2479 02:15:01,200 --> 02:15:05,320 Speaker 1: next logical place. Um and it's a really great way 2480 02:15:05,400 --> 02:15:07,840 Speaker 1: to kind of get a sense of what is something, 2481 02:15:08,720 --> 02:15:11,280 Speaker 1: what what will something maybe look like in the next 2482 02:15:11,800 --> 02:15:13,800 Speaker 1: decade or so, because it's it's all based on already 2483 02:15:13,840 --> 02:15:17,040 Speaker 1: existing stuff, just in different kind of original ways. So 2484 02:15:17,040 --> 02:15:19,240 Speaker 1: that's why I think it's it's so useful to look 2485 02:15:19,280 --> 02:15:22,920 Speaker 1: at your books as as an activist, specifically around like 2486 02:15:23,360 --> 02:15:26,920 Speaker 1: surveillance and stuff, because it's it's just really it's it's 2487 02:15:26,920 --> 02:15:29,560 Speaker 1: really good for kind of keeping keeping an eye on, 2488 02:15:30,280 --> 02:15:33,120 Speaker 1: keeping your head, yeah, and and keeping an eye on 2489 02:15:33,200 --> 02:15:35,440 Speaker 1: what's keeping an eye on you, um and all that 2490 02:15:35,560 --> 02:15:38,320 Speaker 1: kind of stuff. This was a really lovely conversation. Was 2491 02:15:38,320 --> 02:15:41,200 Speaker 1: a lovely last thing to do in my home office 2492 02:15:41,280 --> 02:15:44,800 Speaker 1: in because I leave tomorrow and won't be back until 2493 02:15:44,800 --> 02:15:47,320 Speaker 1: the next year, and then I'm actually gonna be offline 2494 02:15:47,360 --> 02:15:50,000 Speaker 1: for a month after a joint replacement. So it was 2495 02:15:50,320 --> 02:15:51,960 Speaker 1: it was really lovely to meet you all on to 2496 02:15:52,080 --> 02:15:54,640 Speaker 1: chat with you. Thanks so much for chatting with us today, Glory, 2497 02:16:02,640 --> 02:16:04,560 Speaker 1: what's up? Guys? Have a shop Aloud and I am 2498 02:16:04,600 --> 02:16:06,440 Speaker 1: Troy Millions and we are the host of the Earnier 2499 02:16:06,520 --> 02:16:10,040 Speaker 1: Leisure podcast where we break down business models and examine 2500 02:16:10,080 --> 02:16:12,400 Speaker 1: the latest trends and finance. We hold court and have 2501 02:16:12,440 --> 02:16:14,600 Speaker 1: exclusive interviews with some of the biggest names of business, 2502 02:16:14,640 --> 02:16:18,040 Speaker 1: sport and entertainment, from DJ Khaled to Mark Cuban, Rick Ross, 2503 02:16:18,080 --> 02:16:21,200 Speaker 1: and Shaquille O'Neil. I mean our alumnilists expansive. Listen to 2504 02:16:21,320 --> 02:16:23,960 Speaker 1: as our guests reveal their business models, hardships and triumphs 2505 02:16:24,000 --> 02:16:26,040 Speaker 1: and their respective fields. The knowledge is in death and 2506 02:16:26,080 --> 02:16:29,080 Speaker 1: the questions are always delivered from your standpoint. We want 2507 02:16:29,080 --> 02:16:30,960 Speaker 1: to know what you want to know. We talked to 2508 02:16:31,040 --> 02:16:33,959 Speaker 1: the legends of business, sports and entertainment about how they 2509 02:16:34,040 --> 02:16:36,800 Speaker 1: got their start and most importantly, how they make their money. 2510 02:16:37,000 --> 02:16:39,240 Speaker 1: Earn your Leisia is a college business class mixed with 2511 02:16:39,320 --> 02:16:42,199 Speaker 1: pop culture. I want to learn about the real estate game, unclears, 2512 02:16:42,360 --> 02:16:44,800 Speaker 1: how the stock market works. We got you interested in 2513 02:16:44,879 --> 02:16:47,240 Speaker 1: starting a truck and company or vending machine business. Not 2514 02:16:47,360 --> 02:16:49,920 Speaker 1: really sure about how taxes or credit work. We got 2515 02:16:50,000 --> 02:16:52,920 Speaker 1: it all covered. The Earnier Leisure podcast is available now. 2516 02:16:53,360 --> 02:16:56,199 Speaker 1: Listen to Earnier Leisure on the Black Effect podcast Network, 2517 02:16:56,440 --> 02:16:59,440 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio, app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get 2518 02:16:59,440 --> 02:17:07,280 Speaker 1: your podcast. Raffie is the voice of some of the 2519 02:17:07,440 --> 02:17:13,480 Speaker 1: happiest songs of our generation. Babya So who is the 2520 02:17:13,520 --> 02:17:18,480 Speaker 1: man behind Baby Bluga. Every human being wants to feel respected. 2521 02:17:18,879 --> 02:17:22,920 Speaker 1: When we start with young, all good things can grow 2522 02:17:23,080 --> 02:17:26,400 Speaker 1: from there. I'm Chris Garcia, comedian New dad and host 2523 02:17:26,480 --> 02:17:29,240 Speaker 1: of Finding Raffie, a new podcast from My Heart Radio 2524 02:17:29,440 --> 02:17:32,560 Speaker 1: and Fatherly Listen every Tuesday on the I Heart Radio 2525 02:17:32,600 --> 02:17:36,160 Speaker 1: app or wherever you get your podcasts. The art world 2526 02:17:36,280 --> 02:17:40,440 Speaker 1: it is essentially a money laundering business. The best fakes 2527 02:17:40,480 --> 02:17:43,000 Speaker 1: are still hanging on people's walls. You know, they don't 2528 02:17:43,040 --> 02:17:46,879 Speaker 1: even know or suspect that they're fakes. I'm Alec Baldwin 2529 02:17:47,080 --> 02:17:51,359 Speaker 1: and this is a podcast about deception, greed and forgery 2530 02:17:51,760 --> 02:17:54,400 Speaker 1: in the art world. You knew the painting was fake? 2531 02:17:55,920 --> 02:18:01,520 Speaker 1: Um Listen to Art Fraud starting Bory fet on the 2532 02:18:01,640 --> 02:18:05,800 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get 2533 02:18:05,840 --> 02:18:22,760 Speaker 1: your podcasts. You know what, I think it's time to 2534 02:18:22,840 --> 02:18:29,760 Speaker 1: do a podcast. All right, I did it, Sophie. This 2535 02:18:29,920 --> 02:18:32,880 Speaker 1: is it could happen here a podcast that's begun. We 2536 02:18:33,000 --> 02:18:36,600 Speaker 1: talk about how things are falling apart, and occasionally, when 2537 02:18:36,640 --> 02:18:39,840 Speaker 1: we're feeling good, how to maybe how to maybe put 2538 02:18:39,920 --> 02:18:42,520 Speaker 1: them back together a little bit. But today we're more 2539 02:18:42,600 --> 02:18:48,360 Speaker 1: talking about the growing consensus that things in the US 2540 02:18:48,440 --> 02:18:53,120 Speaker 1: culture wars are heating up to an unacceptable level and 2541 02:18:53,360 --> 02:18:56,640 Speaker 1: and maybe people are going to start doing some non 2542 02:18:56,800 --> 02:19:00,400 Speaker 1: culture type wars here in the near future, like civil 2543 02:19:00,600 --> 02:19:02,480 Speaker 1: type war here in the near future. Those of you 2544 02:19:02,520 --> 02:19:04,760 Speaker 1: who know me, which why would you be listening to 2545 02:19:04,840 --> 02:19:07,880 Speaker 1: this podcast if you if you don't know, like the 2546 02:19:08,000 --> 02:19:11,280 Speaker 1: earlier seasons of this exact show, uh know that I 2547 02:19:11,400 --> 02:19:13,800 Speaker 1: talk a lot about the potential of a mass civil 2548 02:19:13,879 --> 02:19:16,480 Speaker 1: conflict in the United States. I've been kind of trying 2549 02:19:16,520 --> 02:19:18,560 Speaker 1: to warn about it for a while, and today we're 2550 02:19:18,560 --> 02:19:22,359 Speaker 1: gonna do an episode about some of the more mainstream 2551 02:19:22,680 --> 02:19:26,160 Speaker 1: sources that have started to kind of accept this as 2552 02:19:26,200 --> 02:19:30,240 Speaker 1: a possibility, um and get concerned about it. Garrison, You've 2553 02:19:30,280 --> 02:19:34,320 Speaker 1: presented us with three articles, one from NBC News, one 2554 02:19:34,480 --> 02:19:39,320 Speaker 1: from The Independent, and one from the Brookings Institute, all 2555 02:19:39,480 --> 02:19:44,320 Speaker 1: kind of fiddling around this idea that certain unnamed journalists 2556 02:19:44,520 --> 02:19:48,000 Speaker 1: have spent years discussing. So, yeah, we're gonna we're gonna 2557 02:19:48,040 --> 02:19:52,360 Speaker 1: get into it. Garrison. Yeah, So it is that the 2558 02:19:52,440 --> 02:19:55,200 Speaker 1: past the past few months, we have well I've I've 2559 02:19:55,240 --> 02:19:59,160 Speaker 1: been watching to see how how this idea has been 2560 02:19:59,240 --> 02:20:02,160 Speaker 1: slowly kind of eating in popularity. Of course, there was 2561 02:20:02,200 --> 02:20:04,400 Speaker 1: like a spike in this around like January six, but 2562 02:20:04,480 --> 02:20:06,960 Speaker 1: then stuff kind of settled down, and now we're kind 2563 02:20:07,000 --> 02:20:09,680 Speaker 1: of seeing it come back up against we had these 2564 02:20:09,959 --> 02:20:12,040 Speaker 1: these three pieces, all published within like a month of 2565 02:20:12,120 --> 02:20:16,200 Speaker 1: each other, um all kind of on this topic, and specifically, 2566 02:20:16,240 --> 02:20:20,280 Speaker 1: like the pieces themselves are definitely going coming out this 2567 02:20:20,360 --> 02:20:23,880 Speaker 1: from a more like liberal perspective. But the thing that 2568 02:20:23,920 --> 02:20:26,080 Speaker 1: made them interesting is that they did have a decent 2569 02:20:26,200 --> 02:20:29,480 Speaker 1: number of like of of polls and uh and and 2570 02:20:29,640 --> 02:20:32,480 Speaker 1: surveys in them based on like what who who what 2571 02:20:32,600 --> 02:20:35,680 Speaker 1: types of people think are like are thinking about this 2572 02:20:35,760 --> 02:20:38,320 Speaker 1: and think it's more more of a possibility. One survey 2573 02:20:38,440 --> 02:20:44,160 Speaker 1: published on November one, they've said eighteen percent of Americans 2574 02:20:45,120 --> 02:20:49,200 Speaker 1: believe that quote unquote patriots might have to resort to 2575 02:20:49,280 --> 02:20:52,720 Speaker 1: violence to quote save the country. Um so. And then 2576 02:20:52,800 --> 02:20:56,480 Speaker 1: that included a thirty percent of Republicans um so, but 2577 02:20:56,720 --> 02:20:58,840 Speaker 1: eighteen percent of all of of of of Americans in 2578 02:20:58,879 --> 02:21:02,720 Speaker 1: general of republic and so using that very specifically turn 2579 02:21:02,760 --> 02:21:07,600 Speaker 1: of phrase is definitely uh notable. And then another pole 2580 02:21:07,640 --> 02:21:10,720 Speaker 1: from are there in the Air found that forty six 2581 02:21:10,840 --> 02:21:14,320 Speaker 1: percent of people thought the country was somewhat or very 2582 02:21:14,480 --> 02:21:18,960 Speaker 1: likely to have another type of civil war. And that's 2583 02:21:19,000 --> 02:21:21,400 Speaker 1: the plurality of the people pulled in that because only 2584 02:21:21,720 --> 02:21:25,360 Speaker 1: like said unlikely, So the majority of people are not 2585 02:21:25,480 --> 02:21:28,240 Speaker 1: the majority of people pulled, but like the most common 2586 02:21:29,800 --> 02:21:32,400 Speaker 1: leaned on, yes, it is, I think we're going to 2587 02:21:32,480 --> 02:21:34,840 Speaker 1: have us a war, yeah, which is not great. The 2588 02:21:34,879 --> 02:21:38,600 Speaker 1: one that uh NBC published included in their article had 2589 02:21:38,640 --> 02:21:41,119 Speaker 1: but like thirty three percent of people saying no, it's 2590 02:21:41,160 --> 02:21:44,160 Speaker 1: it's probably not gonna happen, kind of on the maybe 2591 02:21:44,640 --> 02:21:48,160 Speaker 1: and and and and forty seven leaning on yeah this, maybe, 2592 02:21:48,240 --> 02:21:51,720 Speaker 1: this is, this is probably gonna happen at some point soon. YEP. 2593 02:21:52,520 --> 02:21:54,280 Speaker 1: I mean a lot of a lot a lot of 2594 02:21:54,480 --> 02:21:56,520 Speaker 1: what these articles are talking about is just like kind 2595 02:21:56,560 --> 02:22:01,360 Speaker 1: of the increased increased threats against like elected officials and 2596 02:22:01,480 --> 02:22:06,080 Speaker 1: then increased almost like militancy or performative militancy of elected 2597 02:22:06,120 --> 02:22:09,840 Speaker 1: officials types of like like you know, like a performatively 2598 02:22:10,000 --> 02:22:12,360 Speaker 1: bringing your gun into Congress and that type of thing. 2599 02:22:12,680 --> 02:22:14,400 Speaker 1: And it lays out like a list of a list 2600 02:22:14,480 --> 02:22:18,960 Speaker 1: of like of of of threats or stuff enacted against governors, congressmen, 2601 02:22:19,240 --> 02:22:22,200 Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff in in the past, in 2602 02:22:22,280 --> 02:22:26,000 Speaker 1: the past, like a year year mainly. Yeah. One of 2603 02:22:26,040 --> 02:22:29,480 Speaker 1: the things I really disagree about the Brookings because Brookings 2604 02:22:29,560 --> 02:22:31,720 Speaker 1: is the one who kind of is analyzing that made 2605 02:22:31,800 --> 02:22:34,119 Speaker 1: that big poll and talking about it, has a list 2606 02:22:34,200 --> 02:22:37,000 Speaker 1: of reasons why we might have a civil war and 2607 02:22:37,080 --> 02:22:39,560 Speaker 1: a list of reasons why it's unlikely. And one of 2608 02:22:39,640 --> 02:22:41,760 Speaker 1: the reasons why it's unlikely is quote most of the 2609 02:22:41,879 --> 02:22:46,039 Speaker 1: organizations talking about civil war or private not public entities, um. 2610 02:22:46,600 --> 02:22:49,200 Speaker 1: And note that when Southern States seceded in eighteen sixty, 2611 02:22:49,240 --> 02:22:52,760 Speaker 1: they had police forces, military organizations, and state sponsored militias. 2612 02:22:53,680 --> 02:23:00,360 Speaker 1: The rights of that now, Yeah, Like there's a ton 2613 02:23:00,440 --> 02:23:05,680 Speaker 1: of signal posting from guys like Jim Jordan's uh Hawthorne um, 2614 02:23:06,040 --> 02:23:12,160 Speaker 1: Gates Bobert um, a ton of signal posting of Gostre 2615 02:23:12,760 --> 02:23:16,800 Speaker 1: from elected Republican leaders, from governors, from state level elected officials, 2616 02:23:17,600 --> 02:23:20,560 Speaker 1: and like regular street cops. Yeah, and like regular street 2617 02:23:20,600 --> 02:23:24,120 Speaker 1: cops that are like civil war adjacent, um, if not 2618 02:23:24,400 --> 02:23:27,680 Speaker 1: directly advocating for internet scene violence. So I think that 2619 02:23:27,800 --> 02:23:31,640 Speaker 1: that I don't think Brookings, I don't think they're analysis 2620 02:23:31,720 --> 02:23:36,080 Speaker 1: is spot on with this. And I think there's just 2621 02:23:36,160 --> 02:23:37,960 Speaker 1: one of every thing that's interesting about that, which is 2622 02:23:39,760 --> 02:23:43,440 Speaker 1: I think it was one of those are these our 2623 02:23:43,440 --> 02:23:45,920 Speaker 1: sles arguing that it was like, well, the Pentagon's not 2624 02:23:46,040 --> 02:23:48,960 Speaker 1: particularly civil Like, well, the Pentagon doesn't want a civil war, 2625 02:23:48,959 --> 02:23:50,520 Speaker 1: They're not gonna step into it. But but I think 2626 02:23:50,560 --> 02:23:52,960 Speaker 1: it is also important to note that, like, like if 2627 02:23:53,000 --> 02:23:56,200 Speaker 1: remember what happened last summer, there's a lot of FEDS 2628 02:23:56,480 --> 02:23:59,640 Speaker 1: who are just like you know, like when like yeah, 2629 02:23:59,760 --> 02:24:02,800 Speaker 1: so's you know, the army kind of doesn't want Trump 2630 02:24:02,920 --> 02:24:06,760 Speaker 1: to like send the army against protesters, but like you know, 2631 02:24:06,959 --> 02:24:13,720 Speaker 1: like Bortach for example, like was just like absolutely hyped 2632 02:24:13,800 --> 02:24:17,680 Speaker 1: up to just like absolutely just go disappear a bunch 2633 02:24:17,720 --> 02:24:20,680 Speaker 1: of people, and they were very excited about that part. Yeah, Yeah, 2634 02:24:20,680 --> 02:24:23,920 Speaker 1: they love they love this stuff, and it's like, yeah, 2635 02:24:23,959 --> 02:24:26,480 Speaker 1: the notion that it's less likely because it doesn't have 2636 02:24:26,720 --> 02:24:29,960 Speaker 1: like formal police backing is really silly because if you 2637 02:24:30,000 --> 02:24:32,960 Speaker 1: spend any time monitoring these type of militia groups, you 2638 02:24:33,040 --> 02:24:35,160 Speaker 1: know that a good portion of them are also members 2639 02:24:35,200 --> 02:24:37,120 Speaker 1: of some type of law enforcement or have like family 2640 02:24:37,200 --> 02:24:42,080 Speaker 1: connections to member. There have been a bunch of cases 2641 02:24:42,120 --> 02:24:46,160 Speaker 1: of weapons being stolen stolen from forts UM, particularly in 2642 02:24:46,240 --> 02:24:48,120 Speaker 1: like the West Coast right now, Like, yeah, there's a 2643 02:24:48,160 --> 02:24:50,920 Speaker 1: ton of connections to the and a ton of like 2644 02:24:51,040 --> 02:24:53,120 Speaker 1: members in common. It's like at the Capital riot that 2645 02:24:53,200 --> 02:24:56,840 Speaker 1: were like thirty something active duty police officers involved. UM. 2646 02:24:57,920 --> 02:25:00,760 Speaker 1: To say that there's not direct connections with law enforcement 2647 02:25:00,920 --> 02:25:05,600 Speaker 1: is nonsense. And it's true that, like our military leadership 2648 02:25:06,480 --> 02:25:09,720 Speaker 1: remains pretty much a political and very like committed to 2649 02:25:09,840 --> 02:25:12,200 Speaker 1: being a political in the sense that like in the 2650 02:25:12,520 --> 02:25:16,160 Speaker 1: within the like US partisan context, right, Like they don't 2651 02:25:16,240 --> 02:25:19,400 Speaker 1: come in to prop up the Democrats of the Republicans, 2652 02:25:19,440 --> 02:25:23,360 Speaker 1: and I don't think that's immediately likely. But police forces 2653 02:25:23,400 --> 02:25:26,400 Speaker 1: in the United States are extremely politicized and have more 2654 02:25:26,480 --> 02:25:31,640 Speaker 1: than enough power to carry out a counterinsurgency campaign nationwide. 2655 02:25:31,680 --> 02:25:33,680 Speaker 1: And as long as the US military didn't step in, 2656 02:25:33,840 --> 02:25:36,760 Speaker 1: and why would they, Like the cops are willing and 2657 02:25:36,840 --> 02:25:41,200 Speaker 1: able to do the civil warring for the government. Why 2658 02:25:41,240 --> 02:25:43,360 Speaker 1: do you think they have all those tanks? You know? 2659 02:25:43,840 --> 02:25:45,240 Speaker 1: So yeah, like there is there is a lot of 2660 02:25:45,280 --> 02:25:49,000 Speaker 1: backing um, at least performatively among certain types of writing 2661 02:25:49,120 --> 02:25:51,480 Speaker 1: politicians and of course police. But I think a lot 2662 02:25:51,520 --> 02:25:53,400 Speaker 1: of what the politicians are trying to do is more 2663 02:25:53,480 --> 02:25:59,040 Speaker 1: like encourage regular folks or people in like civilian militias 2664 02:25:59,280 --> 02:26:03,480 Speaker 1: to just start doing violence against other elected leaders. That 2665 02:26:03,560 --> 02:26:06,440 Speaker 1: it seems to be like like like Bobart and that, 2666 02:26:06,640 --> 02:26:09,400 Speaker 1: and those types aren't they They're not like telling police 2667 02:26:09,480 --> 02:26:12,840 Speaker 1: to go do this. They're speaking to like regular people um. 2668 02:26:13,400 --> 02:26:16,400 Speaker 1: And I think one one one decent point the actually 2669 02:26:16,400 --> 02:26:18,160 Speaker 1: the nbc PS actually puts out it says, all of 2670 02:26:18,200 --> 02:26:21,640 Speaker 1: this kind of like divisive um and and more violent 2671 02:26:22,360 --> 02:26:25,640 Speaker 1: rhetoric and behavior displayed by and towards some of our 2672 02:26:25,680 --> 02:26:28,680 Speaker 1: elected officials does not necessarily mean another like civil war 2673 02:26:29,680 --> 02:26:33,440 Speaker 1: in terms of like a military conduct contest between states. Um. 2674 02:26:33,680 --> 02:26:35,400 Speaker 1: It just does not mean that it's inevitable or even 2675 02:26:35,440 --> 02:26:38,400 Speaker 1: probable or even like probable. A more likely scenario is 2676 02:26:38,480 --> 02:26:43,240 Speaker 1: a turbulent era of civil disturbances, armed confrontations, standoffs, threats, 2677 02:26:43,240 --> 02:26:46,800 Speaker 1: assassination attempts, and other acts of political violence. In other words, 2678 02:26:47,680 --> 02:26:49,840 Speaker 1: one that's a lot like the last two years of 2679 02:26:49,920 --> 02:26:52,320 Speaker 1: American history, which I feel like, yeah, in terms of 2680 02:26:53,000 --> 02:26:54,760 Speaker 1: in terms of the likelihood of there being like a 2681 02:26:54,840 --> 02:26:59,720 Speaker 1: more formally declared kind of conflict versus just first just 2682 02:26:59,800 --> 02:27:07,640 Speaker 1: like increasingly increasingly normalizing extreme violence against uh you know, 2683 02:27:08,040 --> 02:27:12,080 Speaker 1: quote unquote fellow countrymen. I think is is a yeah, 2684 02:27:12,160 --> 02:27:14,240 Speaker 1: like there's we are going to be more likely to 2685 02:27:14,320 --> 02:27:16,800 Speaker 1: be just moving in that direction slowly, and at the 2686 02:27:16,920 --> 02:27:20,320 Speaker 1: point when there's like frequent enough exchange of the fire, 2687 02:27:20,640 --> 02:27:22,880 Speaker 1: that's when we say, yeah, we're basically in a civil war. 2688 02:27:22,959 --> 02:27:25,680 Speaker 1: We're just not calling it that, um, which is you know, 2689 02:27:25,879 --> 02:27:28,080 Speaker 1: that's the points that you Robert, you have made a 2690 02:27:28,160 --> 02:27:32,520 Speaker 1: lot in the in the past. Yeah, I mean, and 2691 02:27:32,640 --> 02:27:36,000 Speaker 1: there's I I'm I think a lot of this is 2692 02:27:36,160 --> 02:27:38,720 Speaker 1: just a failure of kind of imagination and ability to 2693 02:27:38,800 --> 02:27:42,080 Speaker 1: accept from a group like Brookings, who I know has 2694 02:27:42,120 --> 02:27:44,840 Speaker 1: paid some attention to the Syrian Civil War, that like 2695 02:27:45,120 --> 02:27:48,720 Speaker 1: civil conflicts in the United States or in the in 2696 02:27:49,040 --> 02:27:52,600 Speaker 1: the twenty one century often don't like there's no clear 2697 02:27:52,680 --> 02:27:54,440 Speaker 1: regional split. Like you look at a lot of what 2698 02:27:54,600 --> 02:27:56,959 Speaker 1: was happening in Syria. You had cities divided up by 2699 02:27:57,000 --> 02:28:01,720 Speaker 1: neighborhoods between like who who was in charge? Um, you 2700 02:28:01,840 --> 02:28:04,880 Speaker 1: know that that's very much what we see here. And 2701 02:28:04,920 --> 02:28:07,360 Speaker 1: you do see like clear regional split between urban and 2702 02:28:07,480 --> 02:28:11,039 Speaker 1: rural divides. And it's not like they say, within specific states, 2703 02:28:11,160 --> 02:28:14,480 Speaker 1: but like I would say, it's very specific and limited 2704 02:28:14,520 --> 02:28:18,120 Speaker 1: states that don't have huge urban rural divides. Um, Like 2705 02:28:18,280 --> 02:28:21,160 Speaker 1: that's that is the norm everywhere in this country that 2706 02:28:21,240 --> 02:28:25,440 Speaker 1: I've been. Maybe it's different in fucking Vermont or New Hampshire, 2707 02:28:25,520 --> 02:28:29,320 Speaker 1: but I don't trust those places. Um. Yeah, and I 2708 02:28:29,720 --> 02:28:36,480 Speaker 1: guess I think they're overly optimistic based on kind of 2709 02:28:36,520 --> 02:28:39,800 Speaker 1: a fundamental misunderstanding of how these sorts of conflicts occur. 2710 02:28:40,240 --> 02:28:44,040 Speaker 1: Um that said, I don't know, like it's it's one 2711 02:28:44,080 --> 02:28:47,000 Speaker 1: of those things. I think the number one the number 2712 02:28:47,040 --> 02:28:49,080 Speaker 1: one thing you should be looking at in terms of 2713 02:28:49,160 --> 02:28:53,040 Speaker 1: whether or not a civil war is likely is the 2714 02:28:53,160 --> 02:28:56,520 Speaker 1: number of people who respond in polls with things like, yes, 2715 02:28:56,600 --> 02:28:59,080 Speaker 1: I think we need to use violence to restore the 2716 02:28:59,200 --> 02:29:03,680 Speaker 1: nation or what ever. Um That it's not just enough, 2717 02:29:03,800 --> 02:29:06,320 Speaker 1: like I I it's not just enough to think that 2718 02:29:06,440 --> 02:29:08,680 Speaker 1: a civil war is likely, because a lot of that's 2719 02:29:08,720 --> 02:29:11,119 Speaker 1: just based on people who don't want one, but are 2720 02:29:11,160 --> 02:29:13,600 Speaker 1: paying attention to the same media as everybody else and 2721 02:29:13,959 --> 02:29:16,160 Speaker 1: are watching the same stuff we're watching, and they're like, well, 2722 02:29:16,200 --> 02:29:19,680 Speaker 1: this seems sketchy. I think that the main indicator is 2723 02:29:20,480 --> 02:29:23,960 Speaker 1: the number of people who respond, yeah, I think it 2724 02:29:24,000 --> 02:29:26,480 Speaker 1: would be awesome to use violence as a like in 2725 02:29:26,680 --> 02:29:30,520 Speaker 1: order to make America more like what I wanted to be. Um. 2726 02:29:31,920 --> 02:29:34,720 Speaker 1: And again, that doesn't mean we'll we'll creep over the point. 2727 02:29:34,760 --> 02:29:37,879 Speaker 1: There's a number of interesting things that have happened. UM 2728 02:29:38,360 --> 02:29:41,440 Speaker 1: on kind of the we're headed towards the civil war side. 2729 02:29:41,600 --> 02:29:44,040 Speaker 1: The number one thing that I've seen recently is the 2730 02:29:44,160 --> 02:29:48,480 Speaker 1: use of paramilitary organizations UM to kind of choke uh, 2731 02:29:48,840 --> 02:29:53,480 Speaker 1: local civil institutions, um, like school boards. I see that 2732 02:29:53,520 --> 02:29:56,600 Speaker 1: as very concerning and as kind of prelude to the 2733 02:29:56,680 --> 02:30:00,760 Speaker 1: sort of armed mobilizations that you would see a unlocalized 2734 02:30:00,800 --> 02:30:03,920 Speaker 1: areas in any kind of civil conflict. It's it's the 2735 02:30:04,480 --> 02:30:07,040 Speaker 1: precursors to death squads. So that's the that's the thing 2736 02:30:07,120 --> 02:30:10,199 Speaker 1: that I see on the ground that worries me most, 2737 02:30:11,000 --> 02:30:14,840 Speaker 1: um in terms of the thing that I'm I'm less 2738 02:30:14,840 --> 02:30:17,240 Speaker 1: certain about honestly, Like one of the things they note 2739 02:30:17,280 --> 02:30:19,320 Speaker 1: in here in the Brookings article that like the sheer 2740 02:30:19,480 --> 02:30:21,640 Speaker 1: number of guns in the United States is a reason 2741 02:30:21,720 --> 02:30:23,760 Speaker 1: why we might have a civil war, and I agree 2742 02:30:23,800 --> 02:30:26,880 Speaker 1: with that entirely. When you have four million weapons in 2743 02:30:26,959 --> 02:30:29,880 Speaker 1: private hands, it increases the odds that they'll be used 2744 02:30:29,920 --> 02:30:33,879 Speaker 1: in some sort of scale. Um. We've also seen historic 2745 02:30:34,040 --> 02:30:38,879 Speaker 1: numbers of non white people of of of like folks 2746 02:30:39,040 --> 02:30:42,720 Speaker 1: who are from marginalized communities, UM, not just buying up 2747 02:30:42,800 --> 02:30:46,640 Speaker 1: weapons that unprecedented rates, but organizing with them. And I'm 2748 02:30:46,680 --> 02:30:49,640 Speaker 1: not really sure how to think of that. There's certainly 2749 02:30:49,800 --> 02:30:53,160 Speaker 1: a way it could certainly be a very negative development, 2750 02:30:53,200 --> 02:30:55,600 Speaker 1: but it could also be. I think a big part 2751 02:30:55,680 --> 02:30:59,160 Speaker 1: of what I've seen from the right lately is the 2752 02:30:59,280 --> 02:31:02,640 Speaker 1: sense of impede unity. UM. And I think the feeling 2753 02:31:02,760 --> 02:31:09,520 Speaker 1: of being matched in arms is an end to impunity potentially. UM. 2754 02:31:09,760 --> 02:31:11,720 Speaker 1: Then the big question is like, well what about the police, 2755 02:31:11,800 --> 02:31:13,600 Speaker 1: and like, well if the police side with the riot 2756 02:31:13,640 --> 02:31:16,440 Speaker 1: against you know, there's there's still a number of questions 2757 02:31:16,480 --> 02:31:19,400 Speaker 1: there and we don't have any clean answers. But um, 2758 02:31:20,040 --> 02:31:22,560 Speaker 1: I don't know that. I I think that on the 2759 02:31:22,640 --> 02:31:25,720 Speaker 1: whole I'm more worried than I was two years ago 2760 02:31:25,879 --> 02:31:28,840 Speaker 1: when I wrote it could happen here. Um. But it's 2761 02:31:28,879 --> 02:31:32,440 Speaker 1: not clean, and I think in some to some extent, 2762 02:31:32,680 --> 02:31:35,560 Speaker 1: I'm I'm a little more worried about something like the 2763 02:31:35,640 --> 02:31:39,240 Speaker 1: years of lead in Italy than I am about Syria 2764 02:31:39,640 --> 02:31:42,520 Speaker 1: right now, if that makes sense. I will say one 2765 02:31:42,640 --> 02:31:45,240 Speaker 1: thing about the years of lead, which because a lot 2766 02:31:45,280 --> 02:31:46,720 Speaker 1: of people talk about the years of less that the 2767 02:31:46,840 --> 02:31:50,440 Speaker 1: years a letter, this kind of like a roughly ten 2768 02:31:50,560 --> 02:31:55,840 Speaker 1: year period in Italy of I don't know, mass herostic 2769 02:31:56,240 --> 02:32:00,160 Speaker 1: escalating political violence with effigant body counts in a way 2770 02:32:00,200 --> 02:32:02,560 Speaker 1: that stood out from the years around it. Yeah, and 2771 02:32:02,560 --> 02:32:04,720 Speaker 1: I mean you know, the years of Lead has and 2772 02:32:04,760 --> 02:32:06,400 Speaker 1: the use at Also there's there's a bunch of intelligence 2773 02:32:06,400 --> 02:32:09,120 Speaker 1: agents involved. There's a lot of four kind false flag 2774 02:32:09,520 --> 02:32:11,760 Speaker 1: false flag bombings, like hundred hundreds of people are being 2775 02:32:11,800 --> 02:32:16,200 Speaker 1: killed in bombings. And I think there's one absolutely crucial 2776 02:32:16,320 --> 02:32:20,560 Speaker 1: difference between now in the years of let. I mean, well, okay, 2777 02:32:20,800 --> 02:32:24,039 Speaker 1: so partially it's that unlike Italy, we don't have seventeen 2778 02:32:24,080 --> 02:32:26,360 Speaker 1: thousand intelligence agenci is operating in the US and like 2779 02:32:26,440 --> 02:32:28,840 Speaker 1: trying to kidnap and kill the foreign prime minister. But 2780 02:32:29,040 --> 02:32:33,520 Speaker 1: the the other thing that's very important is that unlike 2781 02:32:33,640 --> 02:32:37,120 Speaker 1: unlike the Italian left, and you know, really unlike the 2782 02:32:37,320 --> 02:32:40,200 Speaker 1: whole global left of the seventies and eighties, there is 2783 02:32:40,320 --> 02:32:45,720 Speaker 1: no American like left wing like left wing. I guess 2784 02:32:45,760 --> 02:32:47,800 Speaker 1: you could call like there's there's no left wing terrorist tradition, 2785 02:32:47,920 --> 02:32:50,240 Speaker 1: right like the like the left doesn't do suside bombings, 2786 02:32:50,280 --> 02:32:53,680 Speaker 1: The left doesn't kidnap people like like the modern American 2787 02:32:53,760 --> 02:32:56,200 Speaker 1: leftis doesn't do that, And that a big part of 2788 02:32:56,320 --> 02:32:58,240 Speaker 1: of what was happening in the years of Lead was that, 2789 02:32:58,920 --> 02:33:00,880 Speaker 1: you know, sometimes the left was doing this. A lot 2790 02:33:00,920 --> 02:33:02,880 Speaker 1: of times it was the state pretending to be the 2791 02:33:02,959 --> 02:33:07,520 Speaker 1: left carrying up bombings, and that isn't really something that 2792 02:33:07,680 --> 02:33:11,200 Speaker 1: is happening right now because there's just like the like, 2793 02:33:11,840 --> 02:33:16,640 Speaker 1: the the left is not in a place where everyone 2794 02:33:16,840 --> 02:33:19,039 Speaker 1: is going, we need to do armed urban guerrilla movements 2795 02:33:20,000 --> 02:33:21,920 Speaker 1: and yeah. So and then that that makes it harder 2796 02:33:21,959 --> 02:33:25,400 Speaker 1: to sort of pin things like pin actual urban guerrilla 2797 02:33:25,440 --> 02:33:27,520 Speaker 1: movement stuff on the left because there's just none of that. 2798 02:33:28,000 --> 02:33:31,360 Speaker 1: But I don't think and I agree years of Left 2799 02:33:31,440 --> 02:33:35,240 Speaker 1: is kind of like a broad Strokes comparison, because what 2800 02:33:35,320 --> 02:33:38,240 Speaker 1: I see is more likely is what we're what we're 2801 02:33:38,240 --> 02:33:40,920 Speaker 1: already witnessing on the ground with these right wing militant 2802 02:33:40,959 --> 02:33:43,720 Speaker 1: groups increases, and they moved to the point of kidnapping 2803 02:33:44,000 --> 02:33:47,240 Speaker 1: and executing and potentially in concert with law enforcement, like 2804 02:33:47,879 --> 02:33:51,480 Speaker 1: doing stuff like in states that have issued harsh laws, 2805 02:33:51,720 --> 02:33:54,160 Speaker 1: you know, banning certain books you have in a town, 2806 02:33:54,440 --> 02:33:57,480 Speaker 1: local law enforcement and militias like go after and grab 2807 02:33:57,600 --> 02:34:00,440 Speaker 1: individual leftists and either kill or im a is in them, 2808 02:34:00,920 --> 02:34:03,840 Speaker 1: and conflicts over that, and you have the left increasingly 2809 02:34:04,000 --> 02:34:08,520 Speaker 1: organized an arm um as a defense against that, and 2810 02:34:08,600 --> 02:34:11,280 Speaker 1: then a number of armed conflicts you know, as a 2811 02:34:11,320 --> 02:34:13,840 Speaker 1: result of that, which maybe then proceed to bombings and 2812 02:34:13,920 --> 02:34:16,920 Speaker 1: stuff that that's terrorism or proceed to just more kind 2813 02:34:16,959 --> 02:34:22,360 Speaker 1: of skirmishes that the FEDS have a minimal response to, 2814 02:34:22,640 --> 02:34:25,560 Speaker 1: and local or state law enforcement kind of tacitly allows. 2815 02:34:25,959 --> 02:34:29,480 Speaker 1: Um like that. That's that's kind of obviously that's not 2816 02:34:29,640 --> 02:34:32,000 Speaker 1: a direct comparison to what happened in Italy, but of 2817 02:34:32,040 --> 02:34:34,760 Speaker 1: course we're a different country. But that's kind of that's 2818 02:34:34,800 --> 02:34:37,360 Speaker 1: kind of the the kind of brush fire conflict I 2819 02:34:37,440 --> 02:34:40,960 Speaker 1: could see cropping up in the very near future in 2820 02:34:41,040 --> 02:34:46,959 Speaker 1: this country. You know what else will start a series 2821 02:34:47,040 --> 02:34:53,480 Speaker 1: of armed gunfights between left and right in American towns. 2822 02:34:55,800 --> 02:35:01,040 Speaker 1: The products and services they they're they're working on it 2823 02:35:01,160 --> 02:35:04,039 Speaker 1: every day. The products and services that support this podcast 2824 02:35:04,480 --> 02:35:07,840 Speaker 1: urged violence on the streets of the United States. That's 2825 02:35:07,879 --> 02:35:13,440 Speaker 1: behind the bastards. Guarantee, Sophie, we're not doing behind the bastards? 2826 02:35:14,080 --> 02:35:18,760 Speaker 1: What what show are we? Who are we? Anyway? Here's ads? 2827 02:35:20,120 --> 02:35:24,800 Speaker 1: All right? Oh my gosh, uh we're back. Yeah, what 2828 02:35:24,879 --> 02:35:28,760 Speaker 1: a great ad. I really nailed that transition. Um, just 2829 02:35:29,160 --> 02:35:35,160 Speaker 1: absolutely so. The next thing that I want to talk about, UM, 2830 02:35:35,600 --> 02:35:40,400 Speaker 1: something that I think has some some backing behind it, 2831 02:35:40,480 --> 02:35:42,320 Speaker 1: and something that I think is kind of more silly, 2832 02:35:43,080 --> 02:35:45,200 Speaker 1: is that one of one of the reasons that this 2833 02:35:45,520 --> 02:35:50,720 Speaker 1: uh NBC piece by what's his name, uh, Brian Brian 2834 02:35:50,800 --> 02:35:57,120 Speaker 1: Michael Jenkins is uh. He says. One of one of 2835 02:35:57,200 --> 02:36:00,520 Speaker 1: the reasons that we're kind of getting more okay with, 2836 02:36:01,080 --> 02:36:05,600 Speaker 1: you know, uh, killing or hurting our neighbors essentially is 2837 02:36:05,800 --> 02:36:10,520 Speaker 1: um quote, Americans do fewer things together. Church attendance is declining. 2838 02:36:10,720 --> 02:36:14,000 Speaker 1: Membership and civic organizations and lodges have been decreasing for decades. 2839 02:36:14,240 --> 02:36:16,560 Speaker 1: PTA membership has dropped by nearly half from what it 2840 02:36:16,640 --> 02:36:21,040 Speaker 1: was in nineteen sixties, Bowling leagues have almost disappeared, and 2841 02:36:21,160 --> 02:36:25,680 Speaker 1: a shared national experience of military service disintegrated with the 2842 02:36:25,760 --> 02:36:31,240 Speaker 1: abolition of conscription in nineteen seventy three. Meanwhile, self proclaimed 2843 02:36:31,280 --> 02:36:34,600 Speaker 1: citizen militia's driven mainly by far right conspiracy theories, have 2844 02:36:34,760 --> 02:36:37,039 Speaker 1: surged since to US and eight, especially in the past 2845 02:36:37,120 --> 02:36:44,520 Speaker 1: five years. So he is wrong, but he's yes, militias 2846 02:36:44,600 --> 02:36:49,320 Speaker 1: have leagues, militias have risen. But is that due to 2847 02:36:49,480 --> 02:36:51,760 Speaker 1: bowling leagues. Yeah, I don't think it's due to a 2848 02:36:51,920 --> 02:36:54,560 Speaker 1: drop in bowling leagues. I think it's due to the 2849 02:36:54,600 --> 02:36:57,680 Speaker 1: fact that all these guys are terminally online now and 2850 02:36:57,920 --> 02:37:00,960 Speaker 1: we're watching Fox news for twenty years before that. That 2851 02:37:01,120 --> 02:37:03,320 Speaker 1: that is the thing is that like, I don't think 2852 02:37:03,400 --> 02:37:07,320 Speaker 1: this guy, Brian Michael Chickens understands how the Internet intersects 2853 02:37:07,320 --> 02:37:11,080 Speaker 1: with extremism because he's he's doing this from a very 2854 02:37:11,240 --> 02:37:14,080 Speaker 1: like like he's he's acting like we're still in the 2855 02:37:14,200 --> 02:37:18,520 Speaker 1: seventies and he like like that's not how the world works, 2856 02:37:18,560 --> 02:37:20,800 Speaker 1: and how like people spend their time. No, people aren't 2857 02:37:20,840 --> 02:37:24,000 Speaker 1: doing bowling leagues, but yeah, whoman young men are spending 2858 02:37:24,200 --> 02:37:27,119 Speaker 1: and and you know middle aged men are spending time online, 2859 02:37:27,360 --> 02:37:30,520 Speaker 1: whether that be discord in a terrorist group chat, or 2860 02:37:30,600 --> 02:37:33,160 Speaker 1: that be a Facebook group that's for a militia, and 2861 02:37:33,600 --> 02:37:36,800 Speaker 1: that's where that socialization is happening. And because the Internet 2862 02:37:36,879 --> 02:37:40,360 Speaker 1: rewards extremism and the hottest take, it's moving in that 2863 02:37:40,480 --> 02:37:44,840 Speaker 1: direction even with people who would ordinarily just have historically 2864 02:37:44,959 --> 02:37:48,480 Speaker 1: the past joined bowling leagues. I guess, but it very 2865 02:37:48,600 --> 02:37:52,280 Speaker 1: it's it's correlation doesn't equal causation. Ship it's wow, less 2866 02:37:52,320 --> 02:37:55,160 Speaker 1: people are in bowling leagues and going to church and 2867 02:37:55,280 --> 02:38:00,360 Speaker 1: militias have grown wildly, wildly, Um, this one must cause 2868 02:38:00,440 --> 02:38:02,680 Speaker 1: the other. And it's like, well, no, they're both both 2869 02:38:02,760 --> 02:38:05,760 Speaker 1: of those things may have some causes in common. There 2870 02:38:05,800 --> 02:38:09,080 Speaker 1: may be similar factors that are driving both of those things, 2871 02:38:09,760 --> 02:38:12,920 Speaker 1: but they are not caused like that, they don't necessary 2872 02:38:12,959 --> 02:38:17,240 Speaker 1: one doesn't necessarily cause the other. UM. And if you like, again, 2873 02:38:17,440 --> 02:38:19,560 Speaker 1: the smart person version of this would be to say, hey, 2874 02:38:20,040 --> 02:38:22,360 Speaker 1: people are doing less things together out in the world. 2875 02:38:22,400 --> 02:38:24,960 Speaker 1: People are reporting because you can find statistic backup for this. 2876 02:38:25,040 --> 02:38:27,760 Speaker 1: People seem to be lonelier than ever. UM. People are 2877 02:38:27,840 --> 02:38:30,959 Speaker 1: more depressed than ever. Suicide rates have risen, and while 2878 02:38:31,000 --> 02:38:34,600 Speaker 1: this is happening, militias and extremist groups have grown. Perhaps 2879 02:38:34,640 --> 02:38:38,640 Speaker 1: there's something about these organizations UM that makes them particularly 2880 02:38:38,760 --> 02:38:41,760 Speaker 1: attractive when folks are vulnerable due to these things, and like, 2881 02:38:42,240 --> 02:38:44,879 Speaker 1: let's look at you know, the failure of our political 2882 02:38:44,920 --> 02:38:48,360 Speaker 1: system to confront these issues further feeds into the desire 2883 02:38:48,480 --> 02:38:50,600 Speaker 1: amongst some chunk of the populace for some sort of 2884 02:38:50,720 --> 02:38:55,920 Speaker 1: nihilistic cleansing violence. And again, pieces of all the pieces 2885 02:38:55,959 --> 02:38:59,360 Speaker 1: of this article could be could be reassembled into something 2886 02:38:59,640 --> 02:39:02,560 Speaker 1: with um some insight, but I I don't think Brian 2887 02:39:02,600 --> 02:39:05,720 Speaker 1: Michael Jenkins has much. I think it's also an interesting 2888 02:39:05,760 --> 02:39:09,080 Speaker 1: thing to note here about because so the last thing 2889 02:39:09,120 --> 02:39:10,879 Speaker 1: he talks about this oh is the thing that formed 2890 02:39:10,920 --> 02:39:14,680 Speaker 1: the common sort of national identity was shared universal military service. 2891 02:39:14,720 --> 02:39:19,800 Speaker 1: And it's like, okay, the reason shared universal military service 2892 02:39:19,879 --> 02:39:23,039 Speaker 1: went away was that everyone kept murdering literally just blowing 2893 02:39:23,080 --> 02:39:26,600 Speaker 1: their officers up in Vietnam like that. And you know, 2894 02:39:26,640 --> 02:39:28,240 Speaker 1: if if you want to talk about I think like 2895 02:39:28,280 --> 02:39:31,880 Speaker 1: incredibly high levels of political polarization and like mass violence 2896 02:39:31,879 --> 02:39:35,520 Speaker 1: between Americans, I mean, the army basically fighting a civil 2897 02:39:35,560 --> 02:39:39,040 Speaker 1: war against itself in Vietnam is you know, in an 2898 02:39:39,160 --> 02:39:42,360 Speaker 1: enormously important part of this. And then simultaneously the sort 2899 02:39:42,400 --> 02:39:46,000 Speaker 1: of right wing vets returning home and you know, going 2900 02:39:46,080 --> 02:39:50,320 Speaker 1: Louis Beam and stuff like that that you know, he's 2901 02:39:50,360 --> 02:39:54,320 Speaker 1: relying on this kind of mythos of this. So there 2902 02:39:54,440 --> 02:39:56,600 Speaker 1: was a time when you know, it's it's it's basically 2903 02:39:56,640 --> 02:39:58,760 Speaker 1: made it make America great again. But sort of like, yeah, 2904 02:39:58,800 --> 02:40:01,560 Speaker 1: that's that's a liberal. This this type of rhetoric is 2905 02:40:01,560 --> 02:40:05,279 Speaker 1: actually very similar to like the return return to tradition stuff, 2906 02:40:05,280 --> 02:40:08,040 Speaker 1: being like the solution to our extremism need to be 2907 02:40:08,120 --> 02:40:11,519 Speaker 1: going to church church again, being part of civil organizations, 2908 02:40:11,879 --> 02:40:15,440 Speaker 1: joining bowling leagues, and conscript conscripted military service. That's like 2909 02:40:16,080 --> 02:40:19,600 Speaker 1: that is that that is just the same that that 2910 02:40:19,760 --> 02:40:22,080 Speaker 1: is very similar to like the make American grade again, 2911 02:40:22,160 --> 02:40:25,040 Speaker 1: return to tradition sect because those are those are also 2912 02:40:25,240 --> 02:40:28,039 Speaker 1: their goals, except that they're just willing to use violence 2913 02:40:28,080 --> 02:40:31,000 Speaker 1: to achieve those goals, whereas this guy just wants people 2914 02:40:31,040 --> 02:40:34,120 Speaker 1: to start doing that again. I guess, um, I don't know. Yeah, 2915 02:40:34,160 --> 02:40:37,800 Speaker 1: Like in terms of like military service not leading to extremism, 2916 02:40:38,080 --> 02:40:40,920 Speaker 1: I mean, like Oklahoma City bombing, I don't, I don't, 2917 02:40:40,920 --> 02:40:43,200 Speaker 1: I don't really there is other stuff going on there, 2918 02:40:43,240 --> 02:40:45,160 Speaker 1: But like in terms of terms of that being like 2919 02:40:45,400 --> 02:40:47,520 Speaker 1: an example, it is, it is very silly because a 2920 02:40:47,560 --> 02:40:51,080 Speaker 1: lot of a lot of a lot of the guys 2921 02:40:51,160 --> 02:40:53,600 Speaker 1: even inside you know, are are current like three per 2922 02:40:53,600 --> 02:40:57,000 Speaker 1: centers and stuff. A lot of them have former military service. 2923 02:41:00,400 --> 02:41:03,560 Speaker 1: That I mean. But like, yeah, citizen Militia's in terms 2924 02:41:03,600 --> 02:41:07,360 Speaker 1: of gaining popularity, but specifically due to um kind of 2925 02:41:07,440 --> 02:41:10,160 Speaker 1: overall distrust of the federal government and the type of 2926 02:41:10,200 --> 02:41:16,959 Speaker 1: socialization that being online too much results in, has yes, 2927 02:41:17,080 --> 02:41:21,320 Speaker 1: grown grown grown the militia movement a lot um and 2928 02:41:22,560 --> 02:41:25,440 Speaker 1: and I just don't see how Bowling is going to 2929 02:41:25,520 --> 02:41:29,440 Speaker 1: solve that issue in terms of in terms of how 2930 02:41:29,520 --> 02:41:32,920 Speaker 1: do we mean to trust the federal government solve that issue, Garrison. 2931 02:41:33,000 --> 02:41:35,480 Speaker 1: But but you've never watched The Big Lebowski, so you 2932 02:41:35,520 --> 02:41:39,080 Speaker 1: wouldn't you wouldn't understand. I've not watched The Big Lebowski, 2933 02:41:39,360 --> 02:41:41,320 Speaker 1: So I'm kind of I'm kind of I'm kind of 2934 02:41:41,400 --> 02:41:46,000 Speaker 1: done with the kind of done with the NBC piece there. 2935 02:41:46,080 --> 02:41:48,760 Speaker 1: I know there was there was something Brian Michael Jenkins. 2936 02:41:51,040 --> 02:41:54,600 Speaker 1: The other thing on on the Brookings thing that I 2937 02:41:54,640 --> 02:41:58,440 Speaker 1: have a decent issue with is that they're one of 2938 02:41:58,480 --> 02:42:00,520 Speaker 1: the reasons they give for and and this is actually 2939 02:42:00,520 --> 02:42:02,360 Speaker 1: something that Brian Michael Junkins also brings up with the 2940 02:42:02,440 --> 02:42:04,600 Speaker 1: NBC piece, is that one of the reasons why they 2941 02:42:04,640 --> 02:42:07,280 Speaker 1: believe the civil war is not as inevitable is because 2942 02:42:07,320 --> 02:42:11,480 Speaker 1: there is no clear regional split like a North South divide, 2943 02:42:11,959 --> 02:42:14,440 Speaker 1: and they, for some reason think this means that there 2944 02:42:14,520 --> 02:42:18,360 Speaker 1: is less likely to be civil conflict. Um. They they 2945 02:42:18,480 --> 02:42:21,920 Speaker 1: recognized there is an urban rule divide in most states, 2946 02:42:22,280 --> 02:42:25,600 Speaker 1: but because there is no large, kind of obvious North 2947 02:42:25,680 --> 02:42:27,600 Speaker 1: South divide, they think this is going to make a 2948 02:42:27,640 --> 02:42:30,400 Speaker 1: civil war less likely. Well, the map would really be 2949 02:42:30,520 --> 02:42:33,320 Speaker 1: a pain in the ass, so it probably won't happen, right, Like, 2950 02:42:33,400 --> 02:42:35,800 Speaker 1: That's that's the thing they're thinking, is like, oh, if 2951 02:42:35,840 --> 02:42:37,959 Speaker 1: I was gonna if I have to map this out, 2952 02:42:38,040 --> 02:42:40,480 Speaker 1: it's gonna be too complicated. When I read that, I 2953 02:42:40,600 --> 02:42:43,560 Speaker 1: had flashbacks to my first trip to a war zone 2954 02:42:43,600 --> 02:42:46,680 Speaker 1: in Ukraine, where we were like taking Google Maps up 2955 02:42:46,680 --> 02:42:48,600 Speaker 1: to a certain point and then we had to use 2956 02:42:48,800 --> 02:42:51,120 Speaker 1: like hand drawn notes because he was like, well the 2957 02:42:51,520 --> 02:42:54,480 Speaker 1: different like the different chunks of this air next like 2958 02:42:54,560 --> 02:42:57,480 Speaker 1: twenty acres that are owned by the separatists as opposed 2959 02:42:57,480 --> 02:42:59,920 Speaker 1: to the government, or like, you can't use Google it'll 2960 02:43:00,040 --> 02:43:03,800 Speaker 1: send you into enemy territories because it's not a clean 2961 02:43:03,879 --> 02:43:07,120 Speaker 1: break because you had literally suburbs of cities fighting each 2962 02:43:07,160 --> 02:43:10,520 Speaker 1: other and you still do. Yeah, this is a this 2963 02:43:10,680 --> 02:43:12,440 Speaker 1: is you know, I think personally, this this this is 2964 02:43:12,720 --> 02:43:15,120 Speaker 1: a sort of peak American brain thing because you know, 2965 02:43:15,400 --> 02:43:17,800 Speaker 1: there's there's been like five ever civil wars that are 2966 02:43:17,879 --> 02:43:20,279 Speaker 1: broken like this, and the problem is that there's American 2967 02:43:20,280 --> 02:43:23,040 Speaker 1: civil war and then we also fought in both Vietnam 2968 02:43:23,080 --> 02:43:26,160 Speaker 1: and North Korea, but like, well, yeah, yeah, but we 2969 02:43:26,240 --> 02:43:29,520 Speaker 1: just really civil war. Yeah yeah, yeah, that's that's there 2970 02:43:29,680 --> 02:43:32,080 Speaker 1: was fighting between two halves of the country that it 2971 02:43:32,200 --> 02:43:34,920 Speaker 1: was a proxy for two others. Several other kind of yeah, 2972 02:43:34,959 --> 02:43:37,720 Speaker 1: and that's yeah, and that's and that's the thing that like, 2973 02:43:38,520 --> 02:43:42,640 Speaker 1: it's the combination of the American Civil War was very 2974 02:43:42,800 --> 02:43:47,120 Speaker 1: unique civil war and then the other major things that 2975 02:43:47,240 --> 02:43:49,640 Speaker 1: we think of as like quote unquote civil wars were 2976 02:43:49,760 --> 02:43:51,760 Speaker 1: you know, we're basically cold war stuff, and I mean, 2977 02:43:51,840 --> 02:43:53,760 Speaker 1: you know, like that, there there are a couple other 2978 02:43:54,040 --> 02:43:57,200 Speaker 1: like yeah, I mean there have been other examples of 2979 02:43:57,240 --> 02:43:59,200 Speaker 1: like secessionist stuff like that, as like I mean, in 2980 02:43:59,280 --> 02:44:02,279 Speaker 1: in in any civil there's a lot of other countries 2981 02:44:02,360 --> 02:44:04,320 Speaker 1: that get involved. In the US Civil War, there was 2982 02:44:04,360 --> 02:44:07,440 Speaker 1: a significant amount of that sort of and even even 2983 02:44:07,720 --> 02:44:10,200 Speaker 1: even even in the US Civil War, like there are 2984 02:44:10,320 --> 02:44:13,400 Speaker 1: just like towns in the middle of like Confederate Territory 2985 02:44:13,440 --> 02:44:15,600 Speaker 1: they're like, no, funk this, we're not going over. But 2986 02:44:15,760 --> 02:44:19,400 Speaker 1: everyone but people have this just like incredibly myopic view 2987 02:44:19,440 --> 02:44:21,080 Speaker 1: of what a civil war is. And it's like every 2988 02:44:21,160 --> 02:44:23,520 Speaker 1: other civil war that's been fought in the last like 2989 02:44:23,680 --> 02:44:29,480 Speaker 1: fifty years has been just seven thousand factions like neighborhood 2990 02:44:29,560 --> 02:44:33,680 Speaker 1: fighting each other. I don't know, it's just incredibly frustrating 2991 02:44:33,800 --> 02:44:36,800 Speaker 1: to watch these people not understand this. It's very America 2992 02:44:36,879 --> 02:44:40,959 Speaker 1: brained and it's very sad because I'm going to read 2993 02:44:40,959 --> 02:44:43,560 Speaker 1: a quote that's gonna make us want to purge our ears. 2994 02:44:44,320 --> 02:44:47,840 Speaker 1: There are urban rule differences within specific states, with progressives 2995 02:44:47,879 --> 02:44:51,160 Speaker 1: dominating the city as while conservatives reside in rural communities, 2996 02:44:51,440 --> 02:44:54,120 Speaker 1: but that is a far different geographic divide than when 2997 02:44:54,200 --> 02:44:56,920 Speaker 1: one region could wage war on another. The lack of 2998 02:44:57,000 --> 02:45:01,160 Speaker 1: a distinctive or uniform geographic division limits the ability to 2999 02:45:01,280 --> 02:45:04,920 Speaker 1: confront other areas organized supply chains and mobilize the population. 3000 02:45:05,160 --> 02:45:07,600 Speaker 1: There can be local skirmaches between different forces, but not 3001 02:45:07,680 --> 02:45:11,560 Speaker 1: a situation where one state or region attacks another, which 3002 02:45:11,840 --> 02:45:16,000 Speaker 1: is complete nonsense. And that's not how like it's like 3003 02:45:16,120 --> 02:45:19,960 Speaker 1: they don't understand that guerrilla fighting exists, and they don't 3004 02:45:20,000 --> 02:45:23,920 Speaker 1: understand how the whole, the whole, the whole part about 3005 02:45:24,520 --> 02:45:27,160 Speaker 1: organizing supply chains and mobilized population like that is just 3006 02:45:27,320 --> 02:45:30,960 Speaker 1: another way to fight a war is by exploiting that 3007 02:45:31,280 --> 02:45:35,119 Speaker 1: specific thing like the fact that cities are so isolated 3008 02:45:35,600 --> 02:45:39,040 Speaker 1: um and lack and and and lack of home wage resources, 3009 02:45:39,120 --> 02:45:41,280 Speaker 1: and the fact that rural areas are isolated in a 3010 02:45:41,320 --> 02:45:43,880 Speaker 1: different way and lack separate resources. That is not something 3011 02:45:43,959 --> 02:45:46,480 Speaker 1: that makes a civil war less likely. That just makes 3012 02:45:46,520 --> 02:45:50,960 Speaker 1: it more complicated and makes it more fighting over Amazon 3013 02:45:51,320 --> 02:45:54,200 Speaker 1: fulfillment centers and the like. Yeah, like it's it's the 3014 02:45:54,640 --> 02:45:59,520 Speaker 1: it is it is ridiculous, um saying that, Yeah, saying 3015 02:45:59,560 --> 02:46:02,880 Speaker 1: that the uh that that it's it's far different from 3016 02:46:02,920 --> 02:46:05,640 Speaker 1: a geographic divide that one reacher could wage one another. 3017 02:46:05,760 --> 02:46:08,160 Speaker 1: Is like that. No that you're you're just saying something 3018 02:46:08,240 --> 02:46:11,440 Speaker 1: that is just completely wrong and like you have not 3019 02:46:11,600 --> 02:46:16,440 Speaker 1: studied any type of like urban conflict whatsoever. Yeah, And 3020 02:46:16,720 --> 02:46:18,560 Speaker 1: I think there's important thing in here, which is that 3021 02:46:18,920 --> 02:46:24,560 Speaker 1: regions mostly it's not that region's wage warning. Yeah, it's 3022 02:46:24,560 --> 02:46:29,280 Speaker 1: not people don't do the fighting. Yeah, Like regions aren't 3023 02:46:29,320 --> 02:46:32,080 Speaker 1: the things that are fighting. It's the people in areas 3024 02:46:32,120 --> 02:46:34,400 Speaker 1: and people can move around and people can block off 3025 02:46:34,440 --> 02:46:37,280 Speaker 1: access to areas, and like it's it's this, it's a 3026 02:46:37,400 --> 02:46:40,240 Speaker 1: weird it's a it's super weird way to think about things. 3027 02:46:40,400 --> 02:46:43,000 Speaker 1: And it's the fact that if if this is something 3028 02:46:43,200 --> 02:46:47,040 Speaker 1: that like the Brooking Institution, um is, if this is 3029 02:46:47,120 --> 02:46:50,119 Speaker 1: what they think on this topic, that's pretty sad indicator 3030 02:46:50,160 --> 02:46:52,880 Speaker 1: for what a lot of people how they how like 3031 02:46:52,920 --> 02:46:54,720 Speaker 1: a lot of mainstream levels are going to view the 3032 02:46:54,760 --> 02:46:57,440 Speaker 1: possibility of any type of civil conflict. And I don't know, 3033 02:46:57,600 --> 02:47:01,800 Speaker 1: maybe they feel very secure in their cities um, which 3034 02:47:01,879 --> 02:47:03,920 Speaker 1: which is a weird thing. I've I've not felt that 3035 02:47:04,040 --> 02:47:06,440 Speaker 1: in years. Yeah. And I think the other thing that's 3036 02:47:06,560 --> 02:47:08,800 Speaker 1: very weird about this is that because so a lot 3037 02:47:08,840 --> 02:47:11,520 Speaker 1: of people writing about this are x are um like 3038 02:47:11,640 --> 02:47:14,440 Speaker 1: kind are like kind of terrorism people, right, and the 3039 02:47:14,520 --> 02:47:16,800 Speaker 1: kind of terrorism kind of insurgence people. It's weird because 3040 02:47:16,840 --> 02:47:19,440 Speaker 1: they used to understand this, like, you know, like a 3041 02:47:19,520 --> 02:47:21,680 Speaker 1: lot of like you know, because like in in you know, 3042 02:47:21,760 --> 02:47:23,880 Speaker 1: in in the twentieth century and in even sort of 3043 02:47:23,920 --> 02:47:27,360 Speaker 1: the early century, like the the sort of the sort 3044 02:47:27,400 --> 02:47:31,560 Speaker 1: of standard like grilling insurgency doctrine was you know, it's 3045 02:47:31,600 --> 02:47:37,120 Speaker 1: some some some some variation on the like maoists fish 3046 02:47:37,160 --> 02:47:40,280 Speaker 1: in the sea, like surround the cities where we're like 3047 02:47:40,320 --> 02:47:43,000 Speaker 1: real areas, etcetera, etcet etcetera, and like and you you 3048 02:47:43,120 --> 02:47:46,000 Speaker 1: even see versions of this, you know, in things that 3049 02:47:46,080 --> 02:47:48,400 Speaker 1: are quite civil wars but are kind of like what 3050 02:47:48,560 --> 02:47:51,640 Speaker 1: happened like the water and gas wars and Oblivi and 3051 02:47:51,680 --> 02:47:55,040 Speaker 1: the the two thousands were like you know what, what what? Yeah, 3052 02:47:55,280 --> 02:47:57,320 Speaker 1: you have kind of an urban real divide without they 3053 02:47:57,320 --> 02:47:59,480 Speaker 1: have allies in the cities, but the sort of you know, 3054 02:47:59,800 --> 02:48:02,720 Speaker 1: like that the you have a bunch of rural indigenous 3055 02:48:02,720 --> 02:48:05,760 Speaker 1: groups that literally just you know, they blockade every road 3056 02:48:05,800 --> 02:48:08,040 Speaker 1: in the country and then start of the cities out right. 3057 02:48:08,040 --> 02:48:09,200 Speaker 1: I mean, this is this, this is this is just 3058 02:48:09,280 --> 02:48:14,120 Speaker 1: a thing that happened in It's just like yeah, that 3059 02:48:14,280 --> 02:48:16,560 Speaker 1: is like, yeah, that is that. That is going to 3060 02:48:16,720 --> 02:48:19,920 Speaker 1: happen sooner than later, whether that be caused by accident, 3061 02:48:20,000 --> 02:48:22,720 Speaker 1: by some type of climate natural disaster, or on purpose 3062 02:48:22,800 --> 02:48:25,680 Speaker 1: by a militia like that. It's just a matter of 3063 02:48:25,760 --> 02:48:30,000 Speaker 1: time until we have to deal with this massive problem. Yeah. Um. 3064 02:48:30,400 --> 02:48:34,080 Speaker 1: And it's like I've been reading recently about um Uruguay 3065 02:48:34,160 --> 02:48:36,080 Speaker 1: and what happened with them, and like the seventies when 3066 02:48:36,080 --> 02:48:40,119 Speaker 1: their dictatorship took over and they had a left wing 3067 02:48:40,200 --> 02:48:42,480 Speaker 1: group that was like very much engaged in kind of 3068 02:48:42,640 --> 02:48:45,120 Speaker 1: a lot of acts of poetic terrorism, like you know, 3069 02:48:45,520 --> 02:48:48,080 Speaker 1: robbing banks to steal paperwork that they would then hand 3070 02:48:48,160 --> 02:48:51,600 Speaker 1: over to like somebody to reveal malfeasance within a company, 3071 02:48:51,760 --> 02:48:55,200 Speaker 1: or like stealing trucks of food going to like some 3072 02:48:55,400 --> 02:48:58,840 Speaker 1: big wealthy Christmas party and redistributing it in poor neighborhoods. 3073 02:48:58,879 --> 02:49:01,360 Speaker 1: Pretty rad stuff, and one of the ways in which 3074 02:49:01,720 --> 02:49:05,640 Speaker 1: the new incoming dictatorial regime cracked down to them as 3075 02:49:05,640 --> 02:49:10,040 Speaker 1: they deputized like ten thousand chuds and gave them guns 3076 02:49:10,200 --> 02:49:12,680 Speaker 1: and sent them in with the army. Um. And I 3077 02:49:12,760 --> 02:49:16,280 Speaker 1: was like, yeah, I could absolutely see could that happen? Yeah, 3078 02:49:16,320 --> 02:49:18,720 Speaker 1: Like if there was some sort of uprising in a 3079 02:49:19,000 --> 02:49:22,920 Speaker 1: in a liberal city, there's rual areas around them filled 3080 02:49:23,000 --> 02:49:26,640 Speaker 1: with chuds there, and there is precedent, There is precedent 3081 02:49:26,720 --> 02:49:30,400 Speaker 1: for police doing that. Um, they have done it within 3082 02:49:30,640 --> 02:49:35,440 Speaker 1: your r I shot garrison like on small scales. So 3083 02:49:36,040 --> 02:49:37,960 Speaker 1: I think we'll have one more break and come back 3084 02:49:38,040 --> 02:49:42,160 Speaker 1: and talk about a talk about a hedge fund. Oh 3085 02:49:42,320 --> 02:49:44,320 Speaker 1: funk I love hedge funds. Let me get Let me 3086 02:49:44,400 --> 02:49:46,720 Speaker 1: get my hedge funds. Shared out the shirt that I 3087 02:49:46,800 --> 02:49:50,320 Speaker 1: wear when talking about hedge funds. All right, I have 3088 02:49:50,480 --> 02:49:54,360 Speaker 1: my hedge fund shirt on UM. As you can all see, 3089 02:49:54,600 --> 02:49:59,120 Speaker 1: it's a picture of Ringo star filating himself. I don't 3090 02:49:59,160 --> 02:50:03,000 Speaker 1: know why that's my head fun shirt. I don't know either, 3091 02:50:03,120 --> 02:50:06,320 Speaker 1: but I love the beach Boys. Um. Anyway, so thank 3092 02:50:06,400 --> 02:50:10,879 Speaker 1: you perfect nailed it. Uh. We should we talk about 3093 02:50:10,959 --> 02:50:12,960 Speaker 1: this hedge fund guy? Yes, I do want to talk 3094 02:50:13,000 --> 02:50:17,120 Speaker 1: with this hedge fund guy, because this is when something 3095 02:50:17,200 --> 02:50:20,360 Speaker 1: with this much money is talking about this one just 3096 02:50:20,600 --> 02:50:23,880 Speaker 1: for fun, right, he's doing this just for ship funds. Yeah, 3097 02:50:23,959 --> 02:50:26,280 Speaker 1: he's doing it for ships and giggles. And he wrote 3098 02:50:26,320 --> 02:50:29,199 Speaker 1: a book kind of on this topic and he proposed 3099 02:50:29,480 --> 02:50:33,800 Speaker 1: one one solution. He came up with one thing that 3100 02:50:33,879 --> 02:50:37,160 Speaker 1: will prevent us from entering a civil war. Um, which 3101 02:50:37,200 --> 02:50:41,400 Speaker 1: shows how smart these hedge fund people are. Um. But first, uh, 3102 02:50:41,920 --> 02:50:44,440 Speaker 1: I Chris would love to I would love for you 3103 02:50:44,600 --> 02:50:48,160 Speaker 1: to explain who who this? Who this dude is? Okay, 3104 02:50:48,240 --> 02:50:52,960 Speaker 1: So Rae Dao is a hedge fund manager and he 3105 02:50:53,360 --> 02:50:58,680 Speaker 1: is so he runs Bridge Bridge Water Social allegedly the 3106 02:50:58,760 --> 02:51:03,240 Speaker 1: world's largest hedge fund firm. Yeah, and it depends how 3107 02:51:03,280 --> 02:51:05,800 Speaker 1: you de find everything. But yeah, it's a very large fund. 3108 02:51:06,640 --> 02:51:09,400 Speaker 1: And this guy, this guy is weird by like venture 3109 02:51:09,400 --> 02:51:12,560 Speaker 1: capital standards. So the Bridgewaters whole thing is that everyone 3110 02:51:12,640 --> 02:51:15,080 Speaker 1: in the company is constantly surveiled at all times, and 3111 02:51:15,080 --> 02:51:16,879 Speaker 1: anyone else when the company could look at when anyone 3112 02:51:17,040 --> 02:51:18,840 Speaker 1: else is doing. It's supposed to be like it was 3113 02:51:18,840 --> 02:51:20,720 Speaker 1: like total transparency, and what what it actually means again, 3114 02:51:20,720 --> 02:51:22,640 Speaker 1: is it like you can you can look at like 3115 02:51:23,200 --> 02:51:26,720 Speaker 1: fucking what any of your colleagues, like also working at 3116 02:51:26,760 --> 02:51:29,080 Speaker 1: this place, is doing just sucking at their day job. 3117 02:51:29,120 --> 02:51:30,480 Speaker 1: You can see all their records, you can see everything 3118 02:51:30,480 --> 02:51:33,400 Speaker 1: they're looking at. And the other thing that he's known 3119 02:51:33,520 --> 02:51:35,920 Speaker 1: for is that he doesn't trust anyone else to like 3120 02:51:36,040 --> 02:51:37,800 Speaker 1: run the hedge fund after he retires. Your dies, So 3121 02:51:37,879 --> 02:51:40,280 Speaker 1: he's trying to build like like a cybernetic version of 3122 02:51:40,360 --> 02:51:43,080 Speaker 1: his brain to keep running the hedge funds. The like 3123 02:51:43,320 --> 02:51:46,600 Speaker 1: other hedge fund weirdos think this guy is fucking wild. 3124 02:51:47,120 --> 02:51:50,080 Speaker 1: And yeah, he's he's a time and he runs one 3125 02:51:50,080 --> 02:51:52,080 Speaker 1: of the worlds or just has funds. It's great, it's 3126 02:51:52,720 --> 02:51:55,520 Speaker 1: we it's it's amazing and good we give there's people 3127 02:51:55,600 --> 02:51:58,280 Speaker 1: this much money to control. So I will say, when 3128 02:51:58,360 --> 02:52:01,520 Speaker 1: it comes to his actual analysis of like whether or 3129 02:52:01,560 --> 02:52:05,760 Speaker 1: not it's likely, I don't particularly disagree with anything. Yes, 3130 02:52:07,360 --> 02:52:13,080 Speaker 1: it's it's broadly reasonable. Yeah, his looking Yeah for what, 3131 02:52:13,240 --> 02:52:14,920 Speaker 1: he's just doing this because because he thinks it's fun. 3132 02:52:15,000 --> 02:52:18,120 Speaker 1: He has enough money he's gonna survive whatever. Um. But yeah, 3133 02:52:18,280 --> 02:52:20,959 Speaker 1: he's also I mean, part of why this is fairly 3134 02:52:21,080 --> 02:52:23,240 Speaker 1: credible is he's I mean, if you're if you're good 3135 02:52:23,280 --> 02:52:25,760 Speaker 1: at this, it means that you have one actual talent, 3136 02:52:25,840 --> 02:52:29,039 Speaker 1: which is is judging risk. Um, and I think he's 3137 02:52:29,040 --> 02:52:31,640 Speaker 1: probably pretty good at judging risk. Yeah. So he he 3138 02:52:31,840 --> 02:52:33,680 Speaker 1: he said that he believes there's like a high likely 3139 02:52:33,800 --> 02:52:36,520 Speaker 1: could that a civil war or something resembling it will 3140 02:52:36,560 --> 02:52:40,800 Speaker 1: break out within the decade. Um is the number he gives. 3141 02:52:40,879 --> 02:52:44,440 Speaker 1: He's the number he gives and then he, um, yeah, wait, 3142 02:52:44,560 --> 02:52:48,000 Speaker 1: let's see. Yeah he said there's also he have a 3143 02:52:48,080 --> 02:52:50,280 Speaker 1: quality says it's a we're we're in a we're in 3144 02:52:50,400 --> 02:52:54,840 Speaker 1: a high risk position right now. Um. And yeah. He 3145 02:52:55,360 --> 02:52:57,840 Speaker 1: talks about the different kind of reasons why he believes 3146 02:52:57,879 --> 02:53:01,039 Speaker 1: so in this book, most of which are like pretty reasonable, 3147 02:53:01,680 --> 02:53:04,320 Speaker 1: um in terms of like uh, in terms of like 3148 02:53:04,400 --> 02:53:08,360 Speaker 1: looking at a population and how much how like you know, 3149 02:53:08,520 --> 02:53:13,680 Speaker 1: the various like polarization between politics and culture and all 3150 02:53:13,760 --> 02:53:18,600 Speaker 1: this kind of stuff. Um. But the solution that he 3151 02:53:18,760 --> 02:53:22,840 Speaker 1: gives to this is that, um, we should make a 3152 02:53:23,000 --> 02:53:27,160 Speaker 1: formal judgment for quote unquote close elections and have the 3153 02:53:27,240 --> 02:53:30,880 Speaker 1: losers respect the outcomes, and then once that happens, the 3154 02:53:31,160 --> 02:53:34,280 Speaker 1: order is going to be like restored and respected, and 3155 02:53:34,320 --> 02:53:37,040 Speaker 1: then we will avert a civil war. So he he 3156 02:53:37,240 --> 02:53:40,920 Speaker 1: thinks that a civil will will probably be like enacted 3157 02:53:41,040 --> 02:53:43,800 Speaker 1: by some type of election dispute, which that is actually 3158 02:53:43,920 --> 02:53:47,600 Speaker 1: very reasonable in terms of what happened in our last election. 3159 02:53:47,680 --> 02:53:49,560 Speaker 1: If there's like a big if there's a big election dispute, 3160 02:53:49,640 --> 02:53:51,960 Speaker 1: that could absolutely spark some type of conflict. But the 3161 02:53:52,080 --> 02:53:55,360 Speaker 1: idea that we can avert a civil war by just 3162 02:53:55,600 --> 02:54:00,080 Speaker 1: having an organization to judge close elections is like, but 3163 02:54:00,520 --> 02:54:04,040 Speaker 1: that's not gonna solve, Like, that's not gonna if you 3164 02:54:04,160 --> 02:54:06,720 Speaker 1: do that, that's not gonna solve the close election problem. 3165 02:54:06,800 --> 02:54:09,360 Speaker 1: That doesn't even if you do it, that won't be 3166 02:54:09,480 --> 02:54:13,119 Speaker 1: a solution, you know, And I I will say, like, yeah, 3167 02:54:13,200 --> 02:54:17,560 Speaker 1: lexcuse some saying credit credit where minor credit is due. 3168 02:54:18,360 --> 02:54:23,960 Speaker 1: Radalio is in fact right that the difference between two thousands, 3169 02:54:24,120 --> 02:54:26,560 Speaker 1: which is when the last time someone actually literally stole 3170 02:54:26,600 --> 02:54:31,280 Speaker 1: an election happened, where yeah, but Bush Bush openly rigs 3171 02:54:31,320 --> 02:54:35,280 Speaker 1: the election. It's incredibly obvious, like there's like six ways 3172 02:54:35,320 --> 02:54:37,680 Speaker 1: he does this. Everyone knows it's happening. And the reaction 3173 02:54:37,760 --> 02:54:39,440 Speaker 1: is everyone just kind of shrugs because they're like, oh, 3174 02:54:39,520 --> 02:54:45,720 Speaker 1: this dream courts legitimate compared to both, which yeah, that 3175 02:54:45,920 --> 02:54:49,120 Speaker 1: that's you know, that's that's that's there there's been an 3176 02:54:49,160 --> 02:54:53,000 Speaker 1: actual break there. It's just that I don't know, Maybe 3177 02:54:53,120 --> 02:54:54,920 Speaker 1: I think it's it's almost just like a lip brained 3178 02:54:55,000 --> 02:54:56,600 Speaker 1: thing where it's like you think that if if you 3179 02:54:56,640 --> 02:55:00,720 Speaker 1: have an institution that sets down rules this, this will 3180 02:55:00,760 --> 02:55:03,080 Speaker 1: make everything okay because everyone will obey it. And that's 3181 02:55:03,120 --> 02:55:05,440 Speaker 1: just not where we are anymore. Yeah, I mean, there 3182 02:55:05,560 --> 02:55:07,920 Speaker 1: was just a poll that came out recently. It should 3183 02:55:07,959 --> 02:55:10,760 Speaker 1: like Americans trust in the military has fallen to its 3184 02:55:10,840 --> 02:55:13,360 Speaker 1: lowest level ever registered, and like that was kind of 3185 02:55:13,520 --> 02:55:17,280 Speaker 1: the one thing left that most people felt positively about. 3186 02:55:17,920 --> 02:55:19,600 Speaker 1: Not to say that that's even a good thing, but 3187 02:55:19,720 --> 02:55:23,680 Speaker 1: just like the there is such a complete fucking lack 3188 02:55:23,879 --> 02:55:27,840 Speaker 1: of faith in institutions across the spectrum in the United States. 3189 02:55:28,240 --> 02:55:31,600 Speaker 1: But it's like, how unless you're hiring I don't know, 3190 02:55:31,920 --> 02:55:35,240 Speaker 1: um fucking no. I would say Tom Hanks, but Tom 3191 02:55:35,320 --> 02:55:38,840 Speaker 1: Hanks has even gotten politicized even because believes in viruses. 3192 02:55:39,120 --> 02:55:41,560 Speaker 1: So yeah, there's no one they could pick to get 3193 02:55:41,680 --> 02:55:44,440 Speaker 1: do this job that people would feel good about if 3194 02:55:44,520 --> 02:55:46,880 Speaker 1: they Yeah, I mean, I'm sure if they brought Mr 3195 02:55:47,040 --> 02:55:49,080 Speaker 1: Rodgers back from the dead, half the country would call 3196 02:55:49,200 --> 02:55:51,960 Speaker 1: him a cuck. So I don't I don't know what what, 3197 02:55:52,360 --> 02:55:54,600 Speaker 1: I don't know who Dahio thinks is going to like 3198 02:55:55,040 --> 02:56:02,800 Speaker 1: get everybody on board. So maybe maybe maybe um Danny DeVito, 3199 02:56:03,520 --> 02:56:06,680 Speaker 1: Danny DeVito might be able to do it. Well. I 3200 02:56:06,840 --> 02:56:08,720 Speaker 1: think if if we put all of our hope in 3201 02:56:08,800 --> 02:56:12,280 Speaker 1: Danny DeVito, that is a better solution than what any 3202 02:56:12,360 --> 02:56:16,800 Speaker 1: of these articles and the court. It beats it beats 3203 02:56:16,840 --> 02:56:22,039 Speaker 1: every other quote solution the articles posited. I mean Odin 3204 02:56:22,120 --> 02:56:25,840 Speaker 1: Kirk brought Twitter together that one week. Maybe, yeah, you know, 3205 02:56:26,000 --> 02:56:28,280 Speaker 1: with with this practice in court, if you just picked 3206 02:56:28,480 --> 02:56:31,720 Speaker 1: twelve random people off the street and we're like you, 3207 02:56:34,520 --> 02:56:36,080 Speaker 1: that's that's the thing. It's like, I am, I am 3208 02:56:36,160 --> 02:56:40,440 Speaker 1: all for It's the term isn't the term isn't a democracy. Um, 3209 02:56:40,600 --> 02:56:45,000 Speaker 1: it's it's I forget the other yes of of almost 3210 02:56:45,040 --> 02:56:47,080 Speaker 1: I forget exactly, but it's it's when a government is 3211 02:56:47,160 --> 02:56:50,080 Speaker 1: not composed of elected leaders, composed of a random selected 3212 02:56:50,560 --> 02:56:53,800 Speaker 1: a random selection of people, and the decisions and then 3213 02:56:53,840 --> 02:56:56,039 Speaker 1: the decisions over then we then we get a new selection. 3214 02:56:56,240 --> 02:56:59,800 Speaker 1: I'm all for that model of government over almost any other. 3215 02:57:00,160 --> 02:57:03,160 Speaker 1: It sounds way better than what we have. Yeah. Yeah, 3216 02:57:03,480 --> 02:57:06,000 Speaker 1: So that that is, that is the three pieces I 3217 02:57:06,040 --> 02:57:09,120 Speaker 1: want to talk about the independent piece on the Hedge Fund, 3218 02:57:09,400 --> 02:57:13,119 Speaker 1: Brooking Institution on the Civil War. And then uh, Brian wentno, 3219 02:57:13,280 --> 02:57:18,160 Speaker 1: not not Brian, yes, um Brian Michael Jenkins Um, senior 3220 02:57:18,200 --> 02:57:24,840 Speaker 1: advisor to the president of RAND Who who who wrote who? 3221 02:57:24,879 --> 02:57:27,960 Speaker 1: Who wrote the thing for NBC. So yeah, that is 3222 02:57:28,000 --> 02:57:30,240 Speaker 1: just the terms of in terms of you know, people 3223 02:57:30,440 --> 02:57:34,279 Speaker 1: in institutions talking about the topic more generally and sometimes 3224 02:57:34,640 --> 02:57:38,320 Speaker 1: decent ways, oftentimes not decent ways. That is, that is 3225 02:57:38,400 --> 02:57:41,400 Speaker 1: the stuff from like the just the past between the 3226 02:57:41,480 --> 02:57:46,199 Speaker 1: past week two months of people with big salaries talking 3227 02:57:46,280 --> 02:57:49,680 Speaker 1: about the Civil War yea, or in terms of the 3228 02:57:49,879 --> 02:57:52,240 Speaker 1: in terms of the Hedge Fund guy, not a salary, 3229 02:57:52,320 --> 02:57:55,000 Speaker 1: just billions of dollars, Yeah, just billions of dollars and 3230 02:57:55,840 --> 02:57:59,560 Speaker 1: thinking it's neat. Um. I don't know. You know, every 3231 02:57:59,600 --> 02:58:01,560 Speaker 1: time one these comes out, I get tagged by a 3232 02:58:01,600 --> 02:58:05,280 Speaker 1: bunch of people, um saying like, Robbert is the thing 3233 02:58:05,400 --> 02:58:08,040 Speaker 1: you were talking about? Other people are talking about it, 3234 02:58:08,760 --> 02:58:12,880 Speaker 1: and um, I don't know, I don't like that this 3235 02:58:13,080 --> 02:58:14,840 Speaker 1: is the thing other people are talking about that I've 3236 02:58:14,879 --> 02:58:18,560 Speaker 1: been talking about as opposed to mass Zeppelin, transit or 3237 02:58:18,680 --> 02:58:22,520 Speaker 1: something more fun. Yeah, these people could dedicate the resources 3238 02:58:22,520 --> 02:58:26,640 Speaker 1: into something more manageable for them, and because they don't 3239 02:58:26,680 --> 02:58:29,840 Speaker 1: have a good grasp, especially that Brian Michael guys has 3240 02:58:29,879 --> 02:58:33,760 Speaker 1: no grasp on how extremism works. Um, and it would 3241 02:58:33,800 --> 02:58:36,039 Speaker 1: be better if they dedicate the resources to something else. 3242 02:58:36,120 --> 02:58:38,520 Speaker 1: But this is the world we live in. It would 3243 02:58:38,560 --> 02:58:42,440 Speaker 1: be better if perhaps Brian Michael Jenkins dedicated his his 3244 02:58:42,879 --> 02:58:45,480 Speaker 1: efforts and his platform at NBC to looking into Mr 3245 02:58:45,600 --> 02:58:48,039 Speaker 1: Dario and whatever the funk he's been up to. Um, 3246 02:58:48,840 --> 02:58:52,640 Speaker 1: that might that might do more. Very man, he just 3247 02:58:52,720 --> 02:58:55,600 Speaker 1: get plan them on. He would absolutely Brian Michael Jenkins 3248 02:58:55,640 --> 02:58:59,720 Speaker 1: would get PanAm on so fucking quick. Al Right, Well, 3249 02:58:59,760 --> 02:59:04,680 Speaker 1: the hannimnious motherfucker in journalism just just like not even 3250 02:59:04,920 --> 02:59:09,560 Speaker 1: not even downtime before that car gets bombed as he's 3251 02:59:09,640 --> 02:59:16,040 Speaker 1: talking on air. The Okay, Brian Michael Jakins is seventy 3252 02:59:16,200 --> 02:59:19,720 Speaker 1: nine years old, so it won't it wouldn't be hard. 3253 02:59:20,680 --> 02:59:25,039 Speaker 1: H I just that that that's like a ten minute job. 3254 02:59:25,720 --> 02:59:28,240 Speaker 1: I'm just I'm just thinking like Brian Michael Jakins, he's 3255 02:59:28,280 --> 02:59:31,000 Speaker 1: a quote unquote an American expert on terrorism and transportation 3256 02:59:31,040 --> 02:59:33,640 Speaker 1: security with four neckets of analysis. This is why he 3257 02:59:33,680 --> 02:59:36,760 Speaker 1: doesn't understand modern extremism. It's because yeah, he's still thinking 3258 02:59:36,879 --> 02:59:40,520 Speaker 1: in the seventies mode. That's sure. I'm sure of his 3259 02:59:40,640 --> 02:59:44,640 Speaker 1: thoughts on terrorism are just him rehashing opinions about like 3260 02:59:44,959 --> 02:59:47,440 Speaker 1: Hezbollah in the eighties. Yeah, all of all of his 3261 02:59:47,480 --> 02:59:51,920 Speaker 1: stuff is superdated. So that's that's why I said that previously, 3262 02:59:51,959 --> 02:59:53,960 Speaker 1: is that he still views terrorism as like as it 3263 02:59:54,040 --> 02:59:55,720 Speaker 1: was in the seventies. And yeah, this is this is why. 3264 02:59:56,160 --> 03:00:00,760 Speaker 1: Um So that's great, guy, that's that's him. Um, anyway, 3265 03:00:00,959 --> 03:00:05,160 Speaker 1: that wraps up our show. Um, yeah, watch out for 3266 03:00:05,920 --> 03:00:08,280 Speaker 1: the one. The one Brian Michael Jenkins prediction I do 3267 03:00:08,360 --> 03:00:10,600 Speaker 1: think will happen is that there's a decent chance we 3268 03:00:10,680 --> 03:00:13,560 Speaker 1: might be back in an assassination territory, because it is, 3269 03:00:13,560 --> 03:00:15,480 Speaker 1: but it has been a long time since that has happened. 3270 03:00:16,320 --> 03:00:20,560 Speaker 1: It's it has been a hot minute and definitely leagues 3271 03:00:20,800 --> 03:00:24,440 Speaker 1: when it keeps happening in the UK. Yeah, I was 3272 03:00:24,480 --> 03:00:27,640 Speaker 1: meaning specifically in in in America and yeah, that's what 3273 03:00:27,680 --> 03:00:31,360 Speaker 1: I'm saying. We're we're not that far away from them 3274 03:00:31,400 --> 03:00:34,360 Speaker 1: in terms of like things happening, so that I'm kind 3275 03:00:34,400 --> 03:00:36,720 Speaker 1: of surprised it hasn't had. I think it's probably just 3276 03:00:36,840 --> 03:00:41,760 Speaker 1: because maybe American legislators are all much more concerned about 3277 03:00:41,760 --> 03:00:46,160 Speaker 1: assassination because guns, so people like our elected leaders take 3278 03:00:46,160 --> 03:00:48,640 Speaker 1: more precautions than British ones. Did. I don't know. Maybe 3279 03:00:49,400 --> 03:00:52,960 Speaker 1: I don't know either. Well, speaking of assassinations, you can 3280 03:00:53,120 --> 03:00:55,880 Speaker 1: follow us on Twitter and Instagram. That happened here particles 3281 03:00:55,959 --> 03:00:59,520 Speaker 1: on media. If we go missing it was great. If 3282 03:00:59,560 --> 03:01:11,880 Speaker 1: we go think it was Radaldio co Hi. Everybody, This 3283 03:01:12,080 --> 03:01:15,200 Speaker 1: is Roxanne Gay, host of The Roxanne Gay Agenda, The 3284 03:01:15,280 --> 03:01:19,240 Speaker 1: Bad Rominast podcast of Your Dreams. Now, what is the 3285 03:01:19,400 --> 03:01:23,080 Speaker 1: Roxanne Gay Agenda, you might ask. It's a podcast where 3286 03:01:23,240 --> 03:01:26,240 Speaker 1: I'm going to speak my mind about what's on my mind, 3287 03:01:26,360 --> 03:01:29,840 Speaker 1: and that could be anything. Every week I will be 3288 03:01:29,920 --> 03:01:34,120 Speaker 1: in conversation with an interesting person who has something to say. 3289 03:01:34,240 --> 03:01:37,560 Speaker 1: We're going to talk about feminism, race, writing in books, 3290 03:01:37,600 --> 03:01:42,080 Speaker 1: and art, food, pop culture, and yes, politics. I started 3291 03:01:42,240 --> 03:01:45,800 Speaker 1: show with a recommendation. Really, I'm just going to share 3292 03:01:45,840 --> 03:01:48,520 Speaker 1: with you a movie or a book, or maybe some 3293 03:01:48,720 --> 03:01:51,440 Speaker 1: music or a comedy set, something that I really want 3294 03:01:51,560 --> 03:01:54,440 Speaker 1: you to be aware of and maybe engage with as well. 3295 03:01:55,320 --> 03:01:59,199 Speaker 1: Listen to the Luminary original podcast The Roxanne Gay Agenda, 3296 03:01:59,640 --> 03:02:03,480 Speaker 1: The Bad Cominist podcast of your dream every Tuesday on 3297 03:02:03,600 --> 03:02:07,320 Speaker 1: the I Heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 3298 03:02:07,440 --> 03:02:14,480 Speaker 1: get your podcast. Here's to the great American settlers. The 3299 03:02:14,680 --> 03:02:18,680 Speaker 1: millions of you have settled for unsatisfying jobs because they 3300 03:02:18,800 --> 03:02:22,080 Speaker 1: pay the bills, and you just kind of fell into it, 3301 03:02:22,800 --> 03:02:26,920 Speaker 1: and you know, it's like totally fine, just another few 3302 03:02:27,000 --> 03:02:31,240 Speaker 1: decades or so and then you can enjoy yourself. Of course, 3303 03:02:31,400 --> 03:02:34,200 Speaker 1: there is something else you could do. If you've got 3304 03:02:34,360 --> 03:02:38,040 Speaker 1: something to say, you could, I don't know, start up 3305 03:02:38,080 --> 03:02:42,600 Speaker 1: podcast with Spreaker from my heart and unleash your creative 3306 03:02:42,680 --> 03:02:46,600 Speaker 1: freedom and spend all day researching and talking about stuff 3307 03:02:46,680 --> 03:02:50,200 Speaker 1: you love and maybe even earn enough money to one 3308 03:02:50,280 --> 03:02:54,080 Speaker 1: day tell your irritating boss as you quit and walk 3309 03:02:54,160 --> 03:02:59,800 Speaker 1: off into the sunset. Hey I'm no settler, I'm an explorer. 3310 03:03:00,920 --> 03:03:06,080 Speaker 1: Spreaker dot com. That's spr e a k E R. 3311 03:03:07,040 --> 03:03:19,440 Speaker 1: Hustle on over Today, Welcome to it could happen here 3312 03:03:20,280 --> 03:03:24,119 Speaker 1: talk podcast YEP. I could say it a podcast. That's 3313 03:03:24,120 --> 03:03:26,440 Speaker 1: what we're doing, and it's about it's about how things 3314 03:03:26,520 --> 03:03:29,640 Speaker 1: are kind of kind of kind of falling apart sometimes, 3315 03:03:29,760 --> 03:03:31,840 Speaker 1: or at least it feels like it, and I don't know, 3316 03:03:31,959 --> 03:03:34,680 Speaker 1: maybe we can do some things to help make it better, 3317 03:03:35,080 --> 03:03:39,240 Speaker 1: like what happened recently in terms of forests. So, hey, 3318 03:03:39,360 --> 03:03:44,080 Speaker 1: a good news episode. Whoa rare rare rare episode drop 3319 03:03:44,280 --> 03:03:47,600 Speaker 1: for us? Uh, we got some good news. So I'm 3320 03:03:47,640 --> 03:03:50,400 Speaker 1: gonna be talking with Sam, who was on a previous 3321 03:03:50,440 --> 03:03:55,800 Speaker 1: episode discussing a forest defense, about an update on on 3322 03:03:56,040 --> 03:03:57,680 Speaker 1: all of the things that we were talking about a 3323 03:03:57,800 --> 03:04:00,800 Speaker 1: few weeks ago. Um. So yeah, I think we can. 3324 03:04:00,840 --> 03:04:02,800 Speaker 1: We can pretty much get into it, and then then 3325 03:04:02,800 --> 03:04:04,840 Speaker 1: we'll talk about some other stuff around kind of forests 3326 03:04:05,280 --> 03:04:08,960 Speaker 1: in general. So Hello, Sam, Thank thank you for joining 3327 03:04:09,000 --> 03:04:11,520 Speaker 1: me again to talk about trees, one of one of 3328 03:04:11,560 --> 03:04:17,959 Speaker 1: our favorite topics. Hello, my pleasure always. So I think 3329 03:04:18,360 --> 03:04:20,760 Speaker 1: it was like a day or two after we dropped 3330 03:04:20,800 --> 03:04:22,960 Speaker 1: the episode or something, or I think I think it was. 3331 03:04:23,000 --> 03:04:26,360 Speaker 1: Actually it was maybe maybe even like right like right before, Um, 3332 03:04:26,480 --> 03:04:30,440 Speaker 1: we got some extra extra news about all about the 3333 03:04:30,480 --> 03:04:36,880 Speaker 1: post about the postfire logging um near the bright Bush Watershed. Um, yeah, 3334 03:04:37,360 --> 03:04:41,320 Speaker 1: what happened there? Yeah, yeah, it was pretty wild. Actually 3335 03:04:41,640 --> 03:04:45,320 Speaker 1: it was really serendipitous timing too. Um. We as I 3336 03:04:45,440 --> 03:04:48,520 Speaker 1: think we mentioned in the last podcast, we were awaiting 3337 03:04:48,680 --> 03:04:52,840 Speaker 1: the first hearing for the court case essentially, you know, 3338 03:04:53,040 --> 03:04:55,320 Speaker 1: we believed that the plan to log in that area 3339 03:04:55,440 --> 03:05:00,200 Speaker 1: for myriad reasons was not only unethical but also illegal. Um. 3340 03:05:00,240 --> 03:05:02,160 Speaker 1: And so it was going to court and we were 3341 03:05:02,560 --> 03:05:06,960 Speaker 1: awaiting a hearing that happened on December three, Friday, And 3342 03:05:07,760 --> 03:05:10,040 Speaker 1: typically the judge does not rule from the bench and 3343 03:05:10,120 --> 03:05:12,120 Speaker 1: these sorts of hearings, and so we did not expect 3344 03:05:12,160 --> 03:05:15,200 Speaker 1: the decision on that day. UM. But sure enough the 3345 03:05:15,320 --> 03:05:18,360 Speaker 1: judge felt uh strongly enough about this case and sure 3346 03:05:18,440 --> 03:05:21,160 Speaker 1: enough about her decision that she did rule from the 3347 03:05:21,240 --> 03:05:24,920 Speaker 1: bench and ruled in our favor. And so yeah, victories. UM. 3348 03:05:25,080 --> 03:05:29,280 Speaker 1: Now we have um a preliminary injunction in place, meaning 3349 03:05:29,360 --> 03:05:32,280 Speaker 1: that no logging can happen there um at least until 3350 03:05:32,400 --> 03:05:35,400 Speaker 1: this uh timber sale has its real day in court, 3351 03:05:35,840 --> 03:05:39,240 Speaker 1: or until the Fourth Service just drops this shenanigan entirely, 3352 03:05:39,360 --> 03:05:43,000 Speaker 1: which hopefully they will do, but we'll see. Yeah. So 3353 03:05:44,200 --> 03:05:47,480 Speaker 1: they they blocked, they blocked the posts part logging and 3354 03:05:47,760 --> 03:05:52,000 Speaker 1: the the the basically started start starting to clear cut 3355 03:05:52,040 --> 03:05:54,720 Speaker 1: these areas without without actual like public and putting, without 3356 03:05:54,720 --> 03:05:57,600 Speaker 1: actually going through the process as flawed as the process. 3357 03:05:57,680 --> 03:06:00,240 Speaker 1: Maybe they were just skipping it entirely so that that 3358 03:06:00,480 --> 03:06:04,120 Speaker 1: was that was that was blocked by this, by by 3359 03:06:04,200 --> 03:06:06,920 Speaker 1: this legal case. Um, what was I guess Yeah, what 3360 03:06:07,000 --> 03:06:09,080 Speaker 1: what was what was the h what? What was what? 3361 03:06:09,400 --> 03:06:11,520 Speaker 1: What was the reaction like in in in the room 3362 03:06:11,600 --> 03:06:18,520 Speaker 1: and in the various signal chats when this happened. Yeah, 3363 03:06:18,640 --> 03:06:22,560 Speaker 1: in the ether spheres, Um, the reaction was super awesome. 3364 03:06:22,720 --> 03:06:26,200 Speaker 1: I mean, so many people love this place and that 3365 03:06:26,360 --> 03:06:28,520 Speaker 1: was kind of the whole point of what we were 3366 03:06:28,560 --> 03:06:31,200 Speaker 1: trying to do when we did the direct action out 3367 03:06:31,240 --> 03:06:33,920 Speaker 1: there a number of years ago. It was just demonstrate 3368 03:06:34,080 --> 03:06:36,440 Speaker 1: how many people love this place and how the four 3369 03:06:36,560 --> 03:06:39,039 Speaker 1: Service wasn't going to get away with what they're planning 3370 03:06:39,080 --> 03:06:42,200 Speaker 1: to do. UM because people, as we promised, would be 3371 03:06:42,320 --> 03:06:44,600 Speaker 1: back if they tried to log it and move forward 3372 03:06:44,600 --> 03:06:46,640 Speaker 1: with that logging, which, as you pointed out, and as 3373 03:06:46,680 --> 03:06:49,480 Speaker 1: we said last time, was super sketchy, not only because 3374 03:06:49,640 --> 03:06:51,920 Speaker 1: it was a terrible plan that they were planning to 3375 03:06:52,000 --> 03:06:54,000 Speaker 1: do UM in this beloved for us, but also because 3376 03:06:54,040 --> 03:06:56,879 Speaker 1: it was behind locked gates that in the public wasn't 3377 03:06:56,879 --> 03:06:59,880 Speaker 1: allowed into and so UM it was just this you know, 3378 03:07:00,120 --> 03:07:03,400 Speaker 1: travesty that was about to happen. And when we found out, um, 3379 03:07:03,520 --> 03:07:07,080 Speaker 1: and when we heard the judges incredibly strong ruling. Um. 3380 03:07:08,120 --> 03:07:11,800 Speaker 1: We you know, we're absolutely overjoyed. Um. The news spread, 3381 03:07:12,000 --> 03:07:17,000 Speaker 1: you know, like wildfire, excuse the pun it do it um, 3382 03:07:17,240 --> 03:07:19,760 Speaker 1: and just you know, all the signal threads were popping. 3383 03:07:19,920 --> 03:07:22,440 Speaker 1: People were putting it on Twitter. People were reposting the 3384 03:07:22,520 --> 03:07:25,720 Speaker 1: sexy photos of the blockade with the giant slash pile 3385 03:07:25,800 --> 03:07:27,520 Speaker 1: and the fire truck and the band on top of 3386 03:07:27,560 --> 03:07:30,000 Speaker 1: the fire truck. And I just wish that we all 3387 03:07:30,080 --> 03:07:32,600 Speaker 1: could have hung out again and had another dance party 3388 03:07:32,600 --> 03:07:36,080 Speaker 1: because it was the best that doesn't incredibly incredibly rad 3389 03:07:36,560 --> 03:07:40,760 Speaker 1: um was was like your this is this is this 3390 03:07:40,800 --> 03:07:42,960 Speaker 1: is something I don't I don't don't actually know, but 3391 03:07:43,080 --> 03:07:46,400 Speaker 1: it was like the documentation that was taking place by 3392 03:07:46,480 --> 03:07:48,360 Speaker 1: by going to these places and showing hey, this is 3393 03:07:48,400 --> 03:07:50,959 Speaker 1: where they're cutting. Was that brought up in the court 3394 03:07:51,040 --> 03:07:53,959 Speaker 1: case in terms of like, hey, this is we actually 3395 03:07:54,120 --> 03:07:56,760 Speaker 1: went and saw what's actually happening. So it was was 3396 03:07:56,840 --> 03:07:59,600 Speaker 1: that type of evidence used and did it, in your mind, 3397 03:07:59,760 --> 03:08:04,480 Speaker 1: like um um uh kind of be a small part 3398 03:08:04,520 --> 03:08:08,560 Speaker 1: of like the result of the ruling. Yeah, it definitely was. 3399 03:08:08,680 --> 03:08:10,520 Speaker 1: And that is such an important point and I really 3400 03:08:10,560 --> 03:08:13,000 Speaker 1: hope that everyone who's listening can just like put that 3401 03:08:13,080 --> 03:08:15,360 Speaker 1: in their minds for later. How important it is for 3402 03:08:15,480 --> 03:08:18,520 Speaker 1: people to be UM field surveying or sometimes we call 3403 03:08:18,560 --> 03:08:22,800 Speaker 1: it ground true thing UM these places and actually collecting 3404 03:08:22,920 --> 03:08:26,640 Speaker 1: documentation photographic evidence. UM. A lot of folks do kind 3405 03:08:26,680 --> 03:08:29,480 Speaker 1: of like what we call community surveying and collect um 3406 03:08:29,640 --> 03:08:33,560 Speaker 1: some site specific UM kind of like uh, community science 3407 03:08:33,600 --> 03:08:35,680 Speaker 1: sort of stuff. But all of that was used in 3408 03:08:35,760 --> 03:08:37,760 Speaker 1: court and it was super awesome. UM. I actually was 3409 03:08:37,840 --> 03:08:40,160 Speaker 1: one of the standing declarence, so I got to submit 3410 03:08:40,240 --> 03:08:43,160 Speaker 1: a lot of evidence from my many years of traveling 3411 03:08:43,280 --> 03:08:46,520 Speaker 1: that place. UM, and that all of that was referenced 3412 03:08:46,560 --> 03:08:50,000 Speaker 1: in court. So so so important. UM. Even you know, 3413 03:08:50,400 --> 03:08:53,959 Speaker 1: when the forest services essentially trying to kick everyone out 3414 03:08:54,040 --> 03:08:56,520 Speaker 1: and keep everyone out of these places, it's really important 3415 03:08:56,560 --> 03:08:59,800 Speaker 1: to go um and see them. Anyways. Obviously, you know, 3416 03:09:00,160 --> 03:09:02,840 Speaker 1: everyone needs to consider how they do that and their 3417 03:09:02,840 --> 03:09:06,160 Speaker 1: own security and safety UM, and it's becoming difficult UM, 3418 03:09:06,400 --> 03:09:09,920 Speaker 1: but certainly putting eyes on threatened places is one of 3419 03:09:09,959 --> 03:09:12,800 Speaker 1: the best tools we have to save them. Yeah. I 3420 03:09:12,840 --> 03:09:16,920 Speaker 1: just think that's really important to really focus on that 3421 03:09:17,000 --> 03:09:20,080 Speaker 1: as like a thing, because like, yeah, stuff that people 3422 03:09:20,200 --> 03:09:25,600 Speaker 1: did actually had an impact on this not happening right now. UM. 3423 03:09:26,120 --> 03:09:29,160 Speaker 1: And yeah, but by going out there and documenting and 3424 03:09:29,280 --> 03:09:32,160 Speaker 1: then talking about it, um, it has like an actual 3425 03:09:32,400 --> 03:09:37,880 Speaker 1: like causal relation, which is very hard to It's it's 3426 03:09:37,920 --> 03:09:41,480 Speaker 1: it's hard to get direct causal stuff to happen in 3427 03:09:41,640 --> 03:09:45,200 Speaker 1: like the general umbrella of activism. Um. And it's I 3428 03:09:45,280 --> 03:09:49,800 Speaker 1: think it's it's just really exciting that that that this happened. Yeah, 3429 03:09:50,040 --> 03:09:53,440 Speaker 1: that's so true. It does feel in the general umbrellaive 3430 03:09:53,440 --> 03:09:55,440 Speaker 1: activism really hard to point to things that we do 3431 03:09:55,560 --> 03:09:58,359 Speaker 1: that are actually making an effect, and this is totally 3432 03:09:58,400 --> 03:10:01,040 Speaker 1: one of them. I mean, wh and uh if and 3433 03:10:01,120 --> 03:10:04,480 Speaker 1: when this case does have its day in court, um, 3434 03:10:05,360 --> 03:10:08,720 Speaker 1: you know, outside of the preliminary injunction itself. UM, I 3435 03:10:08,840 --> 03:10:11,400 Speaker 1: am sure that so much of that evidence from all 3436 03:10:11,480 --> 03:10:13,920 Speaker 1: the folks who've been traveling there, um and documenting it 3437 03:10:13,959 --> 03:10:16,800 Speaker 1: will be used. We documented, you know, so many green 3438 03:10:16,959 --> 03:10:20,240 Speaker 1: living trees and places the Four Service that were dead. Um, 3439 03:10:20,879 --> 03:10:24,000 Speaker 1: you know, so many like unused roads in places the 3440 03:10:24,040 --> 03:10:26,480 Speaker 1: Forest Service said they needed to log alongside these roads 3441 03:10:26,480 --> 03:10:29,360 Speaker 1: because they're so trafficed and they're posing a safety hazard. 3442 03:10:29,440 --> 03:10:32,520 Speaker 1: And so it's basically like, you know, the best way 3443 03:10:32,640 --> 03:10:36,160 Speaker 1: to expose their gas lighting and lies is to just 3444 03:10:36,320 --> 03:10:39,720 Speaker 1: go document what's there. Yeah, because a big part of 3445 03:10:39,760 --> 03:10:43,520 Speaker 1: their ability to do this is utilizing deception in terms 3446 03:10:43,560 --> 03:10:46,880 Speaker 1: of like and and and utilizing like non information, Like 3447 03:10:46,959 --> 03:10:50,199 Speaker 1: they're just not talking about the stuff that's actually happening, 3448 03:10:50,560 --> 03:10:53,160 Speaker 1: or they're doing like white lies to make it sound better. 3449 03:10:53,320 --> 03:10:55,320 Speaker 1: So they're just they're they're lying about the type of 3450 03:10:55,520 --> 03:10:57,840 Speaker 1: like um uh, the type of sales that they're doing 3451 03:10:58,360 --> 03:11:01,320 Speaker 1: with these with these treets, and how they're classifying the 3452 03:11:01,440 --> 03:11:03,960 Speaker 1: trees that they're logging to like get it past all 3453 03:11:04,000 --> 03:11:06,720 Speaker 1: of the loopholes. But they're not actually like that, that's 3454 03:11:06,760 --> 03:11:10,640 Speaker 1: not actually reality. They're just changing the terms to make 3455 03:11:10,720 --> 03:11:13,080 Speaker 1: it fit what they want. So like as as soon 3456 03:11:13,120 --> 03:11:14,640 Speaker 1: as you start looking into this stuff, it gets all 3457 03:11:14,879 --> 03:11:18,640 Speaker 1: it gets very sketchy because it is they're just lying 3458 03:11:18,680 --> 03:11:20,760 Speaker 1: about a lot of this stuff. Like if you're like 3459 03:11:20,840 --> 03:11:23,560 Speaker 1: listening and be like, oh, you know, be these people 3460 03:11:23,680 --> 03:11:25,840 Speaker 1: just love trees, Like yes, we do love trees, but 3461 03:11:25,920 --> 03:11:28,280 Speaker 1: like the actual thing that's going on is like they're 3462 03:11:28,360 --> 03:11:30,640 Speaker 1: lying about the types of damage that's being done. They're 3463 03:11:30,720 --> 03:11:33,240 Speaker 1: lying about what areas this is happening in all to 3464 03:11:33,360 --> 03:11:35,760 Speaker 1: just rack up more timber sales like that that that 3465 03:11:35,920 --> 03:11:38,760 Speaker 1: is that that that is what's actually happening. Um. And 3466 03:11:38,879 --> 03:11:42,000 Speaker 1: that's so so important to say, like loudly and clearly, 3467 03:11:42,080 --> 03:11:46,800 Speaker 1: because the Forest Service and other management agencies are experts 3468 03:11:46,920 --> 03:11:50,920 Speaker 1: in making the public feel dumb and wrong and misinformed. 3469 03:11:51,040 --> 03:11:53,360 Speaker 1: And right now, even we sound a little wing nutty 3470 03:11:53,480 --> 03:11:58,520 Speaker 1: being like yeah, you know, but like let us be clear, 3471 03:11:58,720 --> 03:12:02,720 Speaker 1: a federal judge agree with us, Yeah, yeah, you know, 3472 03:12:02,959 --> 03:12:05,480 Speaker 1: like we're not the ones who are wrong here, and 3473 03:12:05,600 --> 03:12:07,560 Speaker 1: I think you're totally right. You know, they're using a 3474 03:12:07,640 --> 03:12:12,080 Speaker 1: mixture of blatant lies, um, but also euphemisms like we 3475 03:12:12,680 --> 03:12:14,600 Speaker 1: no one's they don't they don't use the word clear 3476 03:12:14,680 --> 03:12:18,720 Speaker 1: cut anymore. They're using all of these euphemisms, you know, regeneration, harvest, 3477 03:12:18,800 --> 03:12:21,920 Speaker 1: I ship you not a lot of and a lot 3478 03:12:22,000 --> 03:12:23,760 Speaker 1: of this stuff that they're deciding to do is like 3479 03:12:24,200 --> 03:12:25,880 Speaker 1: not open to the public. You need to do like 3480 03:12:25,920 --> 03:12:29,040 Speaker 1: fully requests to to to actually learn what they're doing, 3481 03:12:29,240 --> 03:12:31,200 Speaker 1: because they don't talk about it like that. It is all. 3482 03:12:31,720 --> 03:12:34,080 Speaker 1: It is all extremely sketchy and yeah, like the fact 3483 03:12:34,120 --> 03:12:37,720 Speaker 1: that like a federal a federal judge agreed with like 3484 03:12:38,120 --> 03:12:42,040 Speaker 1: green activists is not a sentence you here often so 3485 03:12:42,440 --> 03:12:44,520 Speaker 1: like it's like yeah, like this is actually a thing, 3486 03:12:44,720 --> 03:12:46,480 Speaker 1: and it's it's important to remember, like you are not 3487 03:12:46,680 --> 03:12:50,080 Speaker 1: immune to propaganda, like all a lot of this stuff 3488 03:12:50,320 --> 03:12:53,800 Speaker 1: is uh is has people who want a lot of 3489 03:12:53,840 --> 03:12:57,160 Speaker 1: money are vested in making people believe things about about 3490 03:12:57,200 --> 03:13:00,480 Speaker 1: about like force management, all this kind of stuff. Um. Yeah, 3491 03:13:00,520 --> 03:13:02,520 Speaker 1: I know it may it may sound crazy when we're 3492 03:13:02,560 --> 03:13:06,400 Speaker 1: talking about you know, the secret illuminati of the Force Service. 3493 03:13:06,560 --> 03:13:08,680 Speaker 1: But like, no, like it acts like it's it is 3494 03:13:08,800 --> 03:13:12,200 Speaker 1: a it is a governmental organization. All governmental organizations are 3495 03:13:12,280 --> 03:13:15,000 Speaker 1: kind of sketchy, especially when their sole purpose is to 3496 03:13:15,520 --> 03:13:17,640 Speaker 1: one of their purposes is to make money or assistant 3497 03:13:17,640 --> 03:13:19,880 Speaker 1: like sales of something like yeah, it's it's gonna have 3498 03:13:20,000 --> 03:13:24,000 Speaker 1: some sketchy stuff. Um. Absolutely, and also you know in 3499 03:13:24,120 --> 03:13:27,040 Speaker 1: the realm of just like the propaganda machine. Um we 3500 03:13:27,440 --> 03:13:30,959 Speaker 1: you know. Just the other day, UM, a hilarious response 3501 03:13:31,040 --> 03:13:34,520 Speaker 1: piece came out from the timber industry and organization called 3502 03:13:34,560 --> 03:13:38,800 Speaker 1: Federal Forest Resource Coalition, which is just a coalition of loggers. 3503 03:13:39,280 --> 03:13:43,120 Speaker 1: UM put out this hilarious little mini video responding directly 3504 03:13:43,240 --> 03:13:45,440 Speaker 1: to the line that we've been using in forest events, 3505 03:13:45,480 --> 03:13:48,200 Speaker 1: which is worth more standing. Our forests are worth more standing. 3506 03:13:48,560 --> 03:13:51,279 Speaker 1: And they put out a hilarious response that is essentially 3507 03:13:51,360 --> 03:13:55,600 Speaker 1: you know, pushing this timber sale, this logging propaganda, saying well, actually, 3508 03:13:56,040 --> 03:13:59,000 Speaker 1: our forests aren't worth anything standing after they've been burned, 3509 03:13:59,080 --> 03:14:01,480 Speaker 1: and their contry a beating to the climate crisis, and 3510 03:14:01,600 --> 03:14:03,880 Speaker 1: they're destructive and you know in all these things, and 3511 03:14:04,000 --> 03:14:07,240 Speaker 1: so totally, I mean, even people who see it with 3512 03:14:07,400 --> 03:14:11,240 Speaker 1: their eyes can be convinced by these voices that they're 3513 03:14:11,320 --> 03:14:14,600 Speaker 1: wrong because they're so good, so good at making us 3514 03:14:14,680 --> 03:14:17,280 Speaker 1: feel just like we're the wrong ones, but we're not. 3515 03:14:18,080 --> 03:14:20,200 Speaker 1: We got this, yeah, in terms of like this the 3516 03:14:20,320 --> 03:14:23,120 Speaker 1: secretive kind of decision making and stuff behind the scenes, 3517 03:14:23,160 --> 03:14:25,720 Speaker 1: in terms of like the types of like terms they're 3518 03:14:25,800 --> 03:14:30,440 Speaker 1: using to to you know, do like restoration, thinning, um 3519 03:14:30,959 --> 03:14:33,840 Speaker 1: and all this stuff around around trying to like basically 3520 03:14:33,879 --> 03:14:36,320 Speaker 1: just just take as many trees from the Bright britsh 3521 03:14:36,400 --> 03:14:41,000 Speaker 1: Watershed as they can. And the judge said that she 3522 03:14:41,280 --> 03:14:45,959 Speaker 1: was quote disappointed in the agency, uh for for all 3523 03:14:46,040 --> 03:14:50,840 Speaker 1: of their silly behind the scenes trench coat meat in 3524 03:14:50,879 --> 03:14:54,720 Speaker 1: the dark alley way to pass off information type of thing, um, 3525 03:14:55,400 --> 03:14:58,040 Speaker 1: which is yeah, like so what what what is what 3526 03:14:58,240 --> 03:15:01,840 Speaker 1: is some of the other kind of stuff that the 3527 03:15:01,920 --> 03:15:05,360 Speaker 1: four Service and the related organizations were trying to we're 3528 03:15:05,360 --> 03:15:07,040 Speaker 1: trying to hide like what like what what what? What? What? 3529 03:15:07,160 --> 03:15:10,200 Speaker 1: What was the stuff that like came out um via 3530 03:15:10,280 --> 03:15:12,320 Speaker 1: this legal process that was like yeah, what was it 3531 03:15:12,440 --> 03:15:14,360 Speaker 1: was the what's a few of the actual things that 3532 03:15:14,440 --> 03:15:17,320 Speaker 1: they were that they were trying to do that eventually 3533 03:15:17,640 --> 03:15:21,560 Speaker 1: like came to light. M h. The major thing is 3534 03:15:21,800 --> 03:15:25,240 Speaker 1: that they were trying to get away with changing the 3535 03:15:25,360 --> 03:15:30,680 Speaker 1: logging contracts without doing any additional environmental analysis or public 3536 03:15:30,760 --> 03:15:35,880 Speaker 1: engagement process. And so there were before there were there 3537 03:15:36,000 --> 03:15:38,200 Speaker 1: was a plan to do what they what we had 3538 03:15:38,320 --> 03:15:41,680 Speaker 1: fought them so hard to get them to agree to do, 3539 03:15:42,080 --> 03:15:45,160 Speaker 1: which was not log a bunch of these this older 3540 03:15:45,240 --> 03:15:48,480 Speaker 1: stands protect tree. They had a diameter limit on trees 3541 03:15:48,520 --> 03:15:50,080 Speaker 1: that they were going to log. So we basically like 3542 03:15:50,200 --> 03:15:53,200 Speaker 1: slapped their hands off of all of these trees and 3543 03:15:53,320 --> 03:15:56,000 Speaker 1: finally were like, okay, we won't sue you if you 3544 03:15:56,040 --> 03:15:58,680 Speaker 1: move forward with the plan as stated, and it had 3545 03:15:58,879 --> 03:16:01,680 Speaker 1: very strong side bore words and you know, even local 3546 03:16:01,720 --> 03:16:04,320 Speaker 1: folks were like, okay, go do this. And then the 3547 03:16:04,400 --> 03:16:06,120 Speaker 1: fires came through and so what they were trying to 3548 03:16:06,160 --> 03:16:08,320 Speaker 1: do was just change the plans. They turned it all 3549 03:16:08,320 --> 03:16:11,240 Speaker 1: into clear cuts in the forest. That we slapped their 3550 03:16:11,240 --> 03:16:13,520 Speaker 1: hands off of and they were trying to argue that 3551 03:16:13,680 --> 03:16:16,600 Speaker 1: they didn't need to do any an additional analysis and 3552 03:16:16,640 --> 03:16:19,720 Speaker 1: they didn't need to engage the public, and even in court, 3553 03:16:19,840 --> 03:16:21,760 Speaker 1: you know, that's what they were arguing. Um they are 3554 03:16:21,959 --> 03:16:25,880 Speaker 1: they're doing some stupid magic math and you know, somersaults, 3555 03:16:26,320 --> 03:16:29,600 Speaker 1: um to try and explain how they had already done 3556 03:16:29,640 --> 03:16:33,440 Speaker 1: an analysis that accounted somehow for the fires that no 3557 03:16:33,520 --> 03:16:37,800 Speaker 1: one could have ever predicted before. A yeah. So the 3558 03:16:37,879 --> 03:16:40,760 Speaker 1: judge was like just you know, she was just roundly like, 3559 03:16:41,400 --> 03:16:43,640 Speaker 1: y'all couldn't have predicted. I like to give her, you know, 3560 03:16:43,720 --> 03:16:47,600 Speaker 1: Southern accident, y'all, I couldn't have predicted, Judge Akins still 3561 03:16:47,680 --> 03:16:51,120 Speaker 1: the South. No, Uh, you couldn't have predicted. Uh, you 3562 03:16:51,200 --> 03:16:53,240 Speaker 1: know that the fires were going to burn through and 3563 03:16:53,400 --> 03:16:55,760 Speaker 1: so there's no way you could have done analysis for 3564 03:16:55,920 --> 03:16:57,600 Speaker 1: fire that you didn't know what's going to happen. Here 3565 03:16:57,760 --> 03:17:00,160 Speaker 1: used silly little beasts. But she did talk to them, um, 3566 03:17:00,600 --> 03:17:03,080 Speaker 1: you know, as if they were just naughty little children, 3567 03:17:03,160 --> 03:17:05,680 Speaker 1: which I loved to hear. You know, the disappointed in 3568 03:17:05,720 --> 03:17:08,360 Speaker 1: the Forest Service was a major move. And I think 3569 03:17:08,440 --> 03:17:10,400 Speaker 1: the other one that came up is just you know, 3570 03:17:10,480 --> 03:17:13,720 Speaker 1: the Forest Service was arguing that they needed quote need 3571 03:17:13,840 --> 03:17:19,200 Speaker 1: to do this logging um, for restoration, for economic recovery, um, 3572 03:17:19,280 --> 03:17:22,760 Speaker 1: and to prevent future wildfires from severely burning in the area. 3573 03:17:23,320 --> 03:17:26,040 Speaker 1: All of that to BS. Like. One thing that the 3574 03:17:26,320 --> 03:17:29,360 Speaker 1: judge said that was super strong, UM was that she 3575 03:17:30,160 --> 03:17:33,880 Speaker 1: sees and obviously on paraphrasing here, um, but she she 3576 03:17:34,080 --> 03:17:38,200 Speaker 1: sees that the community loves this place. It's obvious that 3577 03:17:38,320 --> 03:17:40,800 Speaker 1: this is like a beloved place, and she, you know, 3578 03:17:40,959 --> 03:17:43,920 Speaker 1: essentially understands that the forest is worth more standing. She 3579 03:17:44,000 --> 03:17:45,959 Speaker 1: said that she wanted she thinks that the forest needs 3580 03:17:45,959 --> 03:17:49,480 Speaker 1: an opportunity to recover from the fires, and so basically 3581 03:17:49,560 --> 03:17:53,080 Speaker 1: just called the BS on the Forest Service for their hilarious, 3582 03:17:53,200 --> 03:17:56,360 Speaker 1: you know, justifications for logging. All the we're gonna save 3583 03:17:56,440 --> 03:17:59,520 Speaker 1: the forest by logging. It is just not it's not right, 3584 03:17:59,760 --> 03:18:03,880 Speaker 1: not accurate, and the judge agrees. Yeah. I mean, I'm 3585 03:18:04,240 --> 03:18:07,000 Speaker 1: very very excited about about this ruling and what it 3586 03:18:07,080 --> 03:18:09,280 Speaker 1: means for the future and at least at least at 3587 03:18:09,360 --> 03:18:12,440 Speaker 1: least postponing this until um if if if the if 3588 03:18:12,480 --> 03:18:14,280 Speaker 1: if the lawsuit is going going to go through or 3589 03:18:14,360 --> 03:18:15,960 Speaker 1: if or if they're just going to drop this, which 3590 03:18:16,120 --> 03:18:19,000 Speaker 1: they also very well, maybe they might decide to focus 3591 03:18:19,080 --> 03:18:21,280 Speaker 1: on another part that is that they just don't tell 3592 03:18:21,320 --> 03:18:24,080 Speaker 1: anybody about and start doing it there and then you know, 3593 03:18:24,200 --> 03:18:26,520 Speaker 1: we'll we'll start we'll start this again. But for this 3594 03:18:26,640 --> 03:18:30,320 Speaker 1: particular area, UM, that is that is very exciting, and yeah, 3595 03:18:30,440 --> 03:18:32,320 Speaker 1: it is. It is rare for a federal judge to 3596 03:18:32,440 --> 03:18:36,680 Speaker 1: agree with people on this topic. UM. And now I 3597 03:18:36,760 --> 03:18:38,080 Speaker 1: want want to talk about a few other kind of 3598 03:18:38,520 --> 03:18:42,520 Speaker 1: stuff around like forests, um and how and how these 3599 03:18:42,600 --> 03:18:44,880 Speaker 1: kind of types of things work. I I didn't get 3600 03:18:44,959 --> 03:18:48,000 Speaker 1: an interesting comment which I totally agree with in terms 3601 03:18:48,040 --> 03:18:51,760 Speaker 1: of like how propaganda works in this department, um. And 3602 03:18:51,879 --> 03:18:54,720 Speaker 1: how like how like logging towns operate, or how like 3603 03:18:54,840 --> 03:18:57,400 Speaker 1: towns became logging towns. How like they're basically able to 3604 03:18:57,520 --> 03:19:01,959 Speaker 1: convince local populations that logging is is like good because 3605 03:19:02,000 --> 03:19:03,840 Speaker 1: like yeah, like they're they're gonna they're gonna move into 3606 03:19:03,879 --> 03:19:06,640 Speaker 1: this town, they're gonna restore the town because they're gonna 3607 03:19:06,720 --> 03:19:09,480 Speaker 1: bring in new money through like a logging industry. UM. 3608 03:19:09,800 --> 03:19:12,280 Speaker 1: And yeah, this is a very like, very like a 3609 03:19:12,440 --> 03:19:14,600 Speaker 1: typical move, whether it be for like you know, coal mining, 3610 03:19:14,959 --> 03:19:17,640 Speaker 1: whether it be for pipelines, in terms of like big 3611 03:19:17,680 --> 03:19:19,600 Speaker 1: companies going into small towns to be like, hey, we 3612 03:19:19,640 --> 03:19:22,800 Speaker 1: can promise you economic growth if you can like assist 3613 03:19:23,080 --> 03:19:26,360 Speaker 1: in this you know, extractive process, and they'll be able 3614 03:19:26,400 --> 03:19:29,120 Speaker 1: to convince them with you know, misleading statistics on and 3615 03:19:29,240 --> 03:19:31,280 Speaker 1: you know all that kind of stuff. In terms of 3616 03:19:31,400 --> 03:19:35,480 Speaker 1: logging industry is getting getting really good at radicalizing rule 3617 03:19:35,720 --> 03:19:40,360 Speaker 1: populations to have them believe that it's one not it's 3618 03:19:40,440 --> 03:19:43,720 Speaker 1: it's not like economically destructive to take down trees. They 3619 03:19:43,800 --> 03:19:46,800 Speaker 1: might even say it's like good, um and all all 3620 03:19:46,920 --> 03:19:49,880 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff has have Has there been like 3621 03:19:49,920 --> 03:19:54,440 Speaker 1: any outreach in terms of kind of addressing addressing people 3622 03:19:54,600 --> 03:19:57,640 Speaker 1: in small towns who like maybe used to like you know, 3623 03:19:57,879 --> 03:20:00,720 Speaker 1: rely on unlogging or something and how does how does 3624 03:20:00,760 --> 03:20:02,400 Speaker 1: that works? I know, like they'll be like, oh, but 3625 03:20:02,800 --> 03:20:04,920 Speaker 1: you people come from the city and now you're coming 3626 03:20:04,959 --> 03:20:06,760 Speaker 1: out here into like the woods where I live, and 3627 03:20:07,040 --> 03:20:09,640 Speaker 1: I think it's good that they're chopping down these trees. Right. 3628 03:20:09,800 --> 03:20:11,440 Speaker 1: There's there's there's there's like that kind of that that 3629 03:20:11,560 --> 03:20:14,879 Speaker 1: kind of disconnection because again, no one, no one's immune 3630 03:20:14,879 --> 03:20:16,560 Speaker 1: to propaganda. You can you just you just just have 3631 03:20:16,640 --> 03:20:20,400 Speaker 1: to find the specific one. Um. See I'm just curious about, 3632 03:20:20,440 --> 03:20:22,520 Speaker 1: like in terms of in terms of like forest defense, 3633 03:20:22,560 --> 03:20:25,080 Speaker 1: how often this comes up and how and how you 3634 03:20:25,240 --> 03:20:28,400 Speaker 1: kind of yeah, I don't know what's what steps to 3635 03:20:28,480 --> 03:20:31,119 Speaker 1: make to to be like to tell people, hey, maybe 3636 03:20:31,600 --> 03:20:35,400 Speaker 1: you're believe these things because timber industries told you them, 3637 03:20:35,879 --> 03:20:38,119 Speaker 1: Like how how? How how do you start that conversation 3638 03:20:38,160 --> 03:20:42,200 Speaker 1: with people? Yeah, this is like actually the heart of 3639 03:20:43,200 --> 03:20:47,000 Speaker 1: the forest defense work ahead, what you're talking about right now, 3640 03:20:47,280 --> 03:20:50,000 Speaker 1: the heart of our work ahead, um. And I would 3641 03:20:50,040 --> 03:20:54,720 Speaker 1: also say, you know, there's a there's certainly, um, a 3642 03:20:55,600 --> 03:20:59,320 Speaker 1: dichotomy that the media especially likes to present between the 3643 03:20:59,520 --> 03:21:04,440 Speaker 1: rural logging communities and you know, Portland or city based 3644 03:21:04,480 --> 03:21:07,880 Speaker 1: in batimentalists and the hippie environmentalists to come in and 3645 03:21:08,080 --> 03:21:10,760 Speaker 1: yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, And everyone's familiar with that, 3646 03:21:10,920 --> 03:21:13,360 Speaker 1: and there's of course some truth um to that, but 3647 03:21:13,480 --> 03:21:16,400 Speaker 1: I want to say, like super clearly, there are so 3648 03:21:16,760 --> 03:21:21,199 Speaker 1: many rural folks who do not support the logging industry, 3649 03:21:21,240 --> 03:21:23,440 Speaker 1: and so that's like a false dichotomy that gets presented 3650 03:21:23,480 --> 03:21:25,320 Speaker 1: to us right off the bat, and a lot of 3651 03:21:25,400 --> 03:21:28,720 Speaker 1: those you know, for in the in um the work 3652 03:21:28,840 --> 03:21:32,720 Speaker 1: that I've been doing on forest forest defense, Essentially, we're 3653 03:21:32,760 --> 03:21:36,120 Speaker 1: always connecting with folks on the ground in literally the 3654 03:21:36,160 --> 03:21:39,840 Speaker 1: backyards of these logging proposals, and many of them are 3655 03:21:39,959 --> 03:21:43,280 Speaker 1: super uninterested in having their backyards clear cut. And so 3656 03:21:43,480 --> 03:21:46,840 Speaker 1: we you know, the we we pushed directly against that 3657 03:21:46,959 --> 03:21:50,240 Speaker 1: mythology that you know, it's just environmentalists coming in from Portland, 3658 03:21:50,320 --> 03:21:52,920 Speaker 1: because we work directly with people, including for Brighton Bush, 3659 03:21:53,000 --> 03:21:55,040 Speaker 1: but with every single thing that we work on directly 3660 03:21:55,080 --> 03:21:56,840 Speaker 1: with people who are literally on the front lines of 3661 03:21:56,879 --> 03:22:01,360 Speaker 1: that logging. That said, there is absolutely um a huge 3662 03:22:01,640 --> 03:22:05,360 Speaker 1: pole um. You know, Oregon specifically as you know, famous 3663 03:22:05,400 --> 03:22:07,320 Speaker 1: for logging. Like we talked about last time, there's a 3664 03:22:07,600 --> 03:22:10,440 Speaker 1: logger on top of the capitol. UM. You know, are 3665 03:22:10,560 --> 03:22:18,760 Speaker 1: the mayor of Portland's logging money It's in Oregon's Oregonians blood. Yeah, 3666 03:22:18,840 --> 03:22:22,879 Speaker 1: and for rural Oregonians, UM, there are economic realities where 3667 03:22:23,240 --> 03:22:27,920 Speaker 1: in some cases some counties benefit from um logging in 3668 03:22:28,040 --> 03:22:30,640 Speaker 1: their total from the logging industry, their school you know, 3669 03:22:30,760 --> 03:22:33,800 Speaker 1: schools are tied to logging money. UM. And there's you know, 3670 03:22:34,440 --> 03:22:37,240 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways a narrative that is not 3671 03:22:37,440 --> 03:22:40,800 Speaker 1: really accurate anymore, but has like an element of nostalgia 3672 03:22:40,840 --> 03:22:43,800 Speaker 1: to it. Like you know, logging towns and um this 3673 03:22:43,959 --> 03:22:46,680 Speaker 1: old story about how things used to work with small, 3674 03:22:47,120 --> 03:22:51,200 Speaker 1: small family logging. That's not how it is anymore. But 3675 03:22:51,320 --> 03:22:55,080 Speaker 1: that narrative that like nostalgic narrative, carries on into a 3676 03:22:55,160 --> 03:22:57,240 Speaker 1: lot of communities. And so what the way that I 3677 03:22:57,360 --> 03:22:59,720 Speaker 1: like to cut through that um for people is by 3678 03:22:59,800 --> 03:23:03,760 Speaker 1: makeing it really clear that there's a difference between small 3679 03:23:04,120 --> 03:23:07,720 Speaker 1: you know, family loggers of lore um and and you 3680 03:23:07,800 --> 03:23:10,000 Speaker 1: know of you know, people's what people are attached to 3681 03:23:10,360 --> 03:23:12,640 Speaker 1: and the kinds of what we're seeing today is we're 3682 03:23:12,680 --> 03:23:16,279 Speaker 1: looking at Wall Street logging. We're looking at Wall Street 3683 03:23:16,680 --> 03:23:22,560 Speaker 1: invested UM invested, huge you know, corporate industries who owned 3684 03:23:23,160 --> 03:23:27,039 Speaker 1: who can who still own like you know, huge percentages 3685 03:23:27,120 --> 03:23:30,080 Speaker 1: of our drinking water sheds, of our um communities. Some 3686 03:23:30,400 --> 03:23:32,920 Speaker 1: some of the communities on the coast are owned primarily 3687 03:23:33,000 --> 03:23:38,520 Speaker 1: by private industrial Wall Street funded UM logging corporations. And 3688 03:23:38,720 --> 03:23:40,760 Speaker 1: that's you know, those aren't mom and pop. They're not 3689 03:23:41,080 --> 03:23:43,800 Speaker 1: living in the community. They're living often not even on 3690 03:23:43,879 --> 03:23:48,240 Speaker 1: the Pacific Northwest. These are rich ass assholes who are 3691 03:23:48,360 --> 03:23:54,280 Speaker 1: destroying our bioregion. And you know, I think that making 3692 03:23:54,320 --> 03:23:58,240 Speaker 1: it clear that those aren't those folks are not like us. 3693 03:23:58,360 --> 03:24:01,960 Speaker 1: You know, those are not like rural Aragonians, your those 3694 03:24:02,000 --> 03:24:04,360 Speaker 1: are not your friends. Those are not you know, your 3695 03:24:04,400 --> 03:24:07,560 Speaker 1: pals or your neighbors. And just cutting through that narrative 3696 03:24:07,640 --> 03:24:10,760 Speaker 1: that like, oh, you know logging communities, Um, you know 3697 03:24:10,879 --> 03:24:14,600 Speaker 1: loggers are your friendly neighbor. Actually, no, loggers are Wall Street, Um, 3698 03:24:15,320 --> 03:24:18,920 Speaker 1: you know, investment corporations, rich money people who are doing 3699 03:24:19,000 --> 03:24:22,720 Speaker 1: this destruction. And just kind of like breaking that I guess, 3700 03:24:22,800 --> 03:24:27,000 Speaker 1: like that um, that attachment that people have to this idea, 3701 03:24:27,120 --> 03:24:33,040 Speaker 1: that's just not a reality anymore. The reality is that 3702 03:24:34,120 --> 03:24:38,240 Speaker 1: people who are for logging in rural communities are they 3703 03:24:38,320 --> 03:24:40,400 Speaker 1: have a lot more common with those of us who 3704 03:24:40,440 --> 03:24:43,920 Speaker 1: are fighting logging than the actual people doing the logging, 3705 03:24:44,000 --> 03:24:46,400 Speaker 1: if that makes sense. Like there's a lack of understanding 3706 03:24:47,000 --> 03:24:49,720 Speaker 1: of what the logging industry actually is. It's like back 3707 03:24:49,760 --> 03:24:52,280 Speaker 1: to that nostalgia, Like people who are against logging in 3708 03:24:52,400 --> 03:24:57,400 Speaker 1: rural communities, um, you know often genuinely do not realize 3709 03:24:57,480 --> 03:25:00,480 Speaker 1: that this is Wall Street and like who's doing this logging. 3710 03:25:00,520 --> 03:25:02,720 Speaker 1: They're still thinking it's their you know, neighbor or their 3711 03:25:02,800 --> 03:25:05,360 Speaker 1: friend and it's you know, these stories. But you know 3712 03:25:05,480 --> 03:25:09,080 Speaker 1: the reality is that you know, this is corporate timber 3713 03:25:09,120 --> 03:25:12,440 Speaker 1: owners who are maximizing their financial gain by buying out 3714 03:25:12,520 --> 03:25:15,920 Speaker 1: small landowners all over the place, um ensuring that they 3715 03:25:15,959 --> 03:25:19,400 Speaker 1: aren't taxed by lobbying heavily in the government, so they 3716 03:25:19,440 --> 03:25:21,720 Speaker 1: don't you know, have any sort of taxation that then 3717 03:25:21,760 --> 03:25:23,800 Speaker 1: goes back to benefit our communities. Don't even get me 3718 03:25:23,840 --> 03:25:26,360 Speaker 1: started about how many taxes the timber industry skips out 3719 03:25:26,400 --> 03:25:29,280 Speaker 1: on that could actually benefit our communities and our schools 3720 03:25:29,280 --> 03:25:32,480 Speaker 1: and our libraries and our fire departments but aren't. UM. 3721 03:25:32,760 --> 03:25:36,440 Speaker 1: And then they're adopting exploitative labor practices. Basically, you know, 3722 03:25:36,520 --> 03:25:39,920 Speaker 1: the contracted workers who are in the logging industry right now, 3723 03:25:39,959 --> 03:25:43,240 Speaker 1: who are doing the logging and hauling UM and reforestation 3724 03:25:43,400 --> 03:25:47,640 Speaker 1: so called reforestation planting of mono crop plantations, they are 3725 03:25:47,760 --> 03:25:51,920 Speaker 1: experiencing flat wages and declining work quality conditions um. Meanwhile, 3726 03:25:51,959 --> 03:25:55,440 Speaker 1: while the corporate timber forms are expanding their profits um 3727 03:25:55,800 --> 03:25:58,600 Speaker 1: and you know, getting more wealthy investors. So that is 3728 03:25:58,680 --> 03:26:02,480 Speaker 1: the reality of the timber industry. These are not you know, 3729 03:26:02,600 --> 03:26:06,520 Speaker 1: your friendly neighborhood loggers anymore. So. A few other points 3730 03:26:06,520 --> 03:26:08,520 Speaker 1: I wanted to bring up, kind of on force itself 3731 03:26:08,760 --> 03:26:13,560 Speaker 1: someone someone said something about how we talked about like 3732 03:26:13,720 --> 03:26:17,040 Speaker 1: old growth, and and I guess they think that we 3733 03:26:17,160 --> 03:26:21,080 Speaker 1: said that all forests in this area is old growth, 3734 03:26:21,160 --> 03:26:23,360 Speaker 1: and that's not something we actually said. Old growth is 3735 03:26:23,600 --> 03:26:26,920 Speaker 1: a specific term that means a specific thing. And yeah, 3736 03:26:27,040 --> 03:26:29,280 Speaker 1: regardless of it being old growth or not, they still 3737 03:26:29,280 --> 03:26:32,400 Speaker 1: shouldn't be cut down. I don't know, So I'm not 3738 03:26:32,480 --> 03:26:34,440 Speaker 1: sure why this point was really raised, because we didn't 3739 03:26:34,760 --> 03:26:38,120 Speaker 1: I did. I don't think we did, uh say that 3740 03:26:38,200 --> 03:26:41,200 Speaker 1: every that every tree there is is old growth. Um. 3741 03:26:41,680 --> 03:26:43,160 Speaker 1: A lot of them were planted in the past few 3742 03:26:43,240 --> 03:26:46,080 Speaker 1: hundred years, UM, But that that doesn't mean like they're 3743 03:26:46,560 --> 03:26:50,200 Speaker 1: like much less important. It's like, just because they're not 3744 03:26:50,240 --> 03:26:53,240 Speaker 1: old growth doesn't mean we shouldn't be preserving this particular 3745 03:26:53,560 --> 03:26:55,960 Speaker 1: watershed in this particular environment and not be clear cutting 3746 03:26:55,959 --> 03:26:58,880 Speaker 1: all of it. Yeah, old growth is like like the 3747 03:26:59,040 --> 03:27:01,600 Speaker 1: term old growth is just like become fetishized to me, 3748 03:27:01,680 --> 03:27:04,040 Speaker 1: and this like this thing that you know. This also, 3749 03:27:04,200 --> 03:27:06,080 Speaker 1: let's be clear, that's not an agreement on what old 3750 03:27:06,120 --> 03:27:09,040 Speaker 1: growth actually means across the board, even between agencies, Like 3751 03:27:09,160 --> 03:27:12,400 Speaker 1: there's an arbitrary date cut off that the federal government 3752 03:27:12,520 --> 03:27:15,080 Speaker 1: uses to define old growth. UM. But obviously if you 3753 03:27:15,120 --> 03:27:17,880 Speaker 1: walk into a forest stand, this a healthy you know, 3754 03:27:17,959 --> 03:27:22,160 Speaker 1: a healthy old growth stand is complex in terms of 3755 03:27:22,280 --> 03:27:25,039 Speaker 1: age diversity. There's going to be old growth individual trees, 3756 03:27:25,040 --> 03:27:26,560 Speaker 1: there's going to be a lot of younger trees. Is 3757 03:27:26,600 --> 03:27:30,920 Speaker 1: gonna be horizontal and vertical diversification, Like old growth is complicated, 3758 03:27:30,959 --> 03:27:33,680 Speaker 1: it's messy, But the whole point is like you're right, 3759 03:27:33,800 --> 03:27:36,480 Speaker 1: Like it doesn't actually matter if it's like quote in 3760 03:27:36,640 --> 03:27:39,480 Speaker 1: the CAD, the small narrow category of what the Forest 3761 03:27:39,480 --> 03:27:41,560 Speaker 1: Service would define as old growth, if it's a forest 3762 03:27:41,640 --> 03:27:44,680 Speaker 1: that's been around for you know, a hundred years or 3763 03:27:44,720 --> 03:27:46,520 Speaker 1: even you know, I would argue, if it's a forest 3764 03:27:46,600 --> 03:27:49,000 Speaker 1: that's over like seventy or eighty years old, what are 3765 03:27:49,040 --> 03:27:53,800 Speaker 1: we doing cutting that down? Especially now you know that's 3766 03:27:53,840 --> 03:27:56,560 Speaker 1: storing so much carbon safely in the ground. And also 3767 03:27:56,640 --> 03:27:59,120 Speaker 1: by that age, it's had the opportunity, you know, to 3768 03:27:59,600 --> 03:28:03,680 Speaker 1: to become more diverse than these like monocrop plantations that 3769 03:28:03,760 --> 03:28:07,000 Speaker 1: we're seeing younger forests. So I would argue any forest 3770 03:28:07,080 --> 03:28:10,640 Speaker 1: that's not a monocrop plantation, a young monocrop plantation should 3771 03:28:10,640 --> 03:28:13,400 Speaker 1: absolutely not be clear cut. It's just an inappropriate activity 3772 03:28:13,480 --> 03:28:16,160 Speaker 1: to do in native forest and speaking of a clear cut, 3773 03:28:16,280 --> 03:28:21,840 Speaker 1: there was another Another comment was about how clear cutting 3774 03:28:22,120 --> 03:28:26,440 Speaker 1: can sometimes be good because it creates new environments for 3775 03:28:26,600 --> 03:28:31,360 Speaker 1: other animals and living things to exist in. And I 3776 03:28:31,480 --> 03:28:34,440 Speaker 1: find this to be a really weird comment to make. Um, 3777 03:28:35,080 --> 03:28:38,879 Speaker 1: I don't, I don't quite understand this, this kind of idea, 3778 03:28:39,000 --> 03:28:42,560 Speaker 1: because yes, of course, if you cut down a forest, 3779 03:28:42,840 --> 03:28:46,640 Speaker 1: you are creating a new environment, but that's not where 3780 03:28:46,680 --> 03:28:49,000 Speaker 1: that environment should be, nor is it where it is. 3781 03:28:49,040 --> 03:28:51,120 Speaker 1: It's like if you if you erect a whole bunch 3782 03:28:51,160 --> 03:28:54,080 Speaker 1: of concrete skyscrapers where a force used to be. Yeah, 3783 03:28:54,120 --> 03:28:56,879 Speaker 1: you're also making a new environment. But I would say 3784 03:28:57,000 --> 03:28:59,160 Speaker 1: we probably shouldn't do that, though I don't. That's not 3785 03:28:59,240 --> 03:29:00,840 Speaker 1: that's not a good thing. The same thing with like 3786 03:29:00,879 --> 03:29:03,640 Speaker 1: the people obsessed with like putting solar panels in the desert, 3787 03:29:03,920 --> 03:29:06,480 Speaker 1: Like the desert is an actual environment, like it has 3788 03:29:06,879 --> 03:29:09,840 Speaker 1: There is reasons for why deserts need to exist and 3789 03:29:10,320 --> 03:29:13,840 Speaker 1: that have this whole like a whole like a whole 3790 03:29:14,120 --> 03:29:17,720 Speaker 1: whole environment and a whole um I forget the word, 3791 03:29:17,800 --> 03:29:21,000 Speaker 1: but like and it has an entire system of living 3792 03:29:21,120 --> 03:29:25,959 Speaker 1: things that exist there that should Um, we we don't 3793 03:29:26,040 --> 03:29:28,880 Speaker 1: need to terraform everything. I don't think that's like, I 3794 03:29:28,959 --> 03:29:32,440 Speaker 1: don't we shouldn't. I think preserving the environment in general, 3795 03:29:32,520 --> 03:29:35,680 Speaker 1: preserving the environments that are existing and who are creating 3796 03:29:35,760 --> 03:29:39,200 Speaker 1: like ecosystems, is a good thing. I think generally, the 3797 03:29:39,280 --> 03:29:42,760 Speaker 1: less terraforming probably probably the better, at least right now, 3798 03:29:42,840 --> 03:29:46,119 Speaker 1: when we're dealing with a massive like looming climate crisis 3799 03:29:46,400 --> 03:29:50,000 Speaker 1: that's caused by us terraforming the earth. Um, maybe we 3800 03:29:50,040 --> 03:29:52,920 Speaker 1: should not do that as much. Yeah, we could call 3801 03:29:52,920 --> 03:29:55,440 Speaker 1: a bout a general role like no more terraforming, You'll 3802 03:29:55,560 --> 03:29:57,880 Speaker 1: just leave it. Let's just let's just leave let's leave 3803 03:29:57,959 --> 03:30:00,320 Speaker 1: us for a bit. We just addressed the other things. 3804 03:30:00,800 --> 03:30:03,760 Speaker 1: But for real, though, whoever wrote that comment, I mean, 3805 03:30:03,920 --> 03:30:06,960 Speaker 1: that is a timber industry talking point that at the 3806 03:30:07,040 --> 03:30:09,600 Speaker 1: time it's literally, that is literally and whether they meant 3807 03:30:09,640 --> 03:30:11,400 Speaker 1: it or not, you know, this is how the timber 3808 03:30:11,440 --> 03:30:14,240 Speaker 1: industry gets us. They're real good at this. This is there, 3809 03:30:14,480 --> 03:30:17,280 Speaker 1: you know, nice sounding talking points that we rebut all 3810 03:30:17,360 --> 03:30:20,200 Speaker 1: the time, um, you know, not just in media but 3811 03:30:20,360 --> 03:30:24,440 Speaker 1: also in court. Um. And the talking point is clear 3812 03:30:24,520 --> 03:30:30,120 Speaker 1: cuts mimic natural disasters like severe fires by replacing it. 3813 03:30:30,280 --> 03:30:35,200 Speaker 1: And it's part totally don't clear cut, go look at 3814 03:30:35,240 --> 03:30:37,920 Speaker 1: a fire. It's a completely different experience than I could 3815 03:30:37,920 --> 03:30:40,320 Speaker 1: go down that rabbit hole all day on fire ecology 3816 03:30:40,720 --> 03:30:43,920 Speaker 1: another time maybe, but suffice it's to say, you know, 3817 03:30:45,320 --> 03:30:48,880 Speaker 1: what they're arguing is that they're creating young forest or 3818 03:30:49,000 --> 03:30:52,440 Speaker 1: quote early several habitat by clear cutting an old forest. 3819 03:30:52,680 --> 03:30:56,320 Speaker 1: But what they're actually doing is DeForest station. They're replacing 3820 03:30:56,400 --> 03:30:59,920 Speaker 1: an old forest with something that's not forest, A young 3821 03:31:00,120 --> 03:31:03,640 Speaker 1: mono crop plantation is a crop. It is not a forest, 3822 03:31:03,879 --> 03:31:08,800 Speaker 1: and so they are deforesting, and um, it is ecosystem. 3823 03:31:08,959 --> 03:31:13,680 Speaker 1: It is ecoside, and um, yeah it is. It is egoside. 3824 03:31:13,680 --> 03:31:16,360 Speaker 1: And I think, yeah, the insistence that like it's it's 3825 03:31:16,400 --> 03:31:19,760 Speaker 1: good because it will allow some species to exist in 3826 03:31:19,840 --> 03:31:22,000 Speaker 1: this new environment, like, yeah, but there's other environments where 3827 03:31:22,000 --> 03:31:23,520 Speaker 1: they can't exist, and we don't we don't need to 3828 03:31:23,520 --> 03:31:26,320 Speaker 1: be destroying the ones that are already kind of important 3829 03:31:26,360 --> 03:31:29,080 Speaker 1: and doing good stuff to make room for other ones 3830 03:31:29,160 --> 03:31:31,720 Speaker 1: that aren't already there. And they argue that the deer 3831 03:31:31,800 --> 03:31:34,160 Speaker 1: and the butterflies love the clear cuts, and so just 3832 03:31:34,400 --> 03:31:36,560 Speaker 1: call that out as bullshit next time you'all hear that. 3833 03:31:36,720 --> 03:31:38,880 Speaker 1: It's you know, spread the word that is some timber 3834 03:31:38,920 --> 03:31:41,000 Speaker 1: industry bs. They're tricksy, but don't let them get you. 3835 03:31:41,120 --> 03:31:44,640 Speaker 1: And the last thing I want to mention is why 3836 03:31:45,200 --> 03:31:48,039 Speaker 1: blocking off access to these areas is bad. Um, because 3837 03:31:48,360 --> 03:31:51,120 Speaker 1: I got someone someone said something like, um, you know, 3838 03:31:52,240 --> 03:31:57,560 Speaker 1: because fires are human caused, closing off public lands is 3839 03:31:57,920 --> 03:32:00,760 Speaker 1: it can be good because then fires wone gets hurt 3840 03:32:00,760 --> 03:32:04,800 Speaker 1: in those areas, And this really just misunderstands why fires 3841 03:32:04,840 --> 03:32:07,280 Speaker 1: get started. And also it's just a bad thing to 3842 03:32:07,360 --> 03:32:10,280 Speaker 1: do anyway, because like fire if you look at like 3843 03:32:10,280 --> 03:32:13,120 Speaker 1: the map of where wildfires start, um, almost all of 3844 03:32:13,240 --> 03:32:17,520 Speaker 1: them are on the path of highways. UM. Specifically in 3845 03:32:17,600 --> 03:32:20,280 Speaker 1: California that when when the fires are really there. There 3846 03:32:20,320 --> 03:32:22,240 Speaker 1: was a firefighter who who who made a great video 3847 03:32:22,760 --> 03:32:25,280 Speaker 1: about like why the fire line was all next to 3848 03:32:25,560 --> 03:32:27,600 Speaker 1: the highway and there was like conspiracy theories of like 3849 03:32:27,959 --> 03:32:31,560 Speaker 1: including the Antifa's driving down highways and setting the forest 3850 03:32:31,640 --> 03:32:34,480 Speaker 1: on fire, which was which was an actual popular talking 3851 03:32:34,600 --> 03:32:37,000 Speaker 1: point because we live in the hell world. Um. But 3852 03:32:37,120 --> 03:32:38,880 Speaker 1: like you know, he's explained like the reason why, like 3853 03:32:39,000 --> 03:32:41,920 Speaker 1: they are like human caused, but they're not, like a 3854 03:32:42,000 --> 03:32:44,200 Speaker 1: lot of them aren't intentionally caused. It's because that's where 3855 03:32:44,200 --> 03:32:46,400 Speaker 1: power lines run. And this is where a lot of 3856 03:32:46,600 --> 03:32:49,640 Speaker 1: sparks can ignite stuff on the edges of of of 3857 03:32:49,800 --> 03:32:52,280 Speaker 1: highways that will then take out a part of the forest. Now, 3858 03:32:52,520 --> 03:32:54,920 Speaker 1: every once in a while there's a gender reveal party 3859 03:32:54,959 --> 03:32:57,800 Speaker 1: that goes horribly wrong and does and and does ignite it. 3860 03:32:57,840 --> 03:32:59,760 Speaker 1: That is true, and I think the solution to that 3861 03:32:59,879 --> 03:33:03,480 Speaker 1: is not closing down the forest. It's not having gender 3862 03:33:03,680 --> 03:33:09,760 Speaker 1: reveal parties that we stopped selling uh on Amazon. I'm 3863 03:33:09,800 --> 03:33:12,199 Speaker 1: all thor Tanna right as an idea, But how about 3864 03:33:12,240 --> 03:33:15,600 Speaker 1: let's stop selling blue and pink Tanna right packets to 3865 03:33:15,640 --> 03:33:19,520 Speaker 1: people who don't know how to use explosives genuinely don't know, 3866 03:33:19,840 --> 03:33:21,560 Speaker 1: because yeah, like they're not they're not actually using Tanna 3867 03:33:21,640 --> 03:33:23,360 Speaker 1: right for what it's meant for, and they're not using 3868 03:33:23,400 --> 03:33:26,480 Speaker 1: it to do like like training. Um, they're using it 3869 03:33:26,600 --> 03:33:28,680 Speaker 1: to say that they're having a baby. And this has 3870 03:33:28,720 --> 03:33:31,800 Speaker 1: caused a lot of wildfire death. So how how about 3871 03:33:31,840 --> 03:33:36,440 Speaker 1: we just stopped selling uh the gender reveal party bombs. 3872 03:33:37,200 --> 03:33:39,400 Speaker 1: I think that'd be a better solution than closing down 3873 03:33:39,840 --> 03:33:44,400 Speaker 1: massive swaths of public land. And how about our power 3874 03:33:44,480 --> 03:33:47,800 Speaker 1: line companies get their ship together and stop Yeah, do 3875 03:33:48,240 --> 03:33:51,920 Speaker 1: actually have a plan for planned power shut offs. And actually, 3876 03:33:52,040 --> 03:33:55,280 Speaker 1: you know, we know now actually Pacific Corps is in 3877 03:33:56,000 --> 03:33:59,320 Speaker 1: court right now because they started the Santiam fires. Their 3878 03:33:59,360 --> 03:34:02,040 Speaker 1: power lines started the stand Inspires and the Archie Creek 3879 03:34:02,120 --> 03:34:05,280 Speaker 1: fires and probably more. And so yeah, how about the 3880 03:34:05,320 --> 03:34:07,600 Speaker 1: powerline companies get their ship together. But I feel like 3881 03:34:07,680 --> 03:34:10,120 Speaker 1: the other huge thing here is that, you know, the 3882 03:34:10,200 --> 03:34:12,560 Speaker 1: suggestion that we should close off these forests to the 3883 03:34:12,640 --> 03:34:17,360 Speaker 1: public to me is just like more uh you know, 3884 03:34:17,879 --> 03:34:21,160 Speaker 1: it's you know, blatantly it's racist, um, and it's you know, 3885 03:34:21,320 --> 03:34:25,560 Speaker 1: I think it's wrong because these lands, these belong to 3886 03:34:25,720 --> 03:34:28,640 Speaker 1: indigenous people. We should be giving these lands back to 3887 03:34:28,800 --> 03:34:31,400 Speaker 1: indigenous people. And you know, when we're talking about like 3888 03:34:31,520 --> 03:34:35,120 Speaker 1: rural communities too in adjust transition, like rural community members 3889 03:34:35,120 --> 03:34:38,279 Speaker 1: should actually have more say in what happens in their backyard. 3890 03:34:38,320 --> 03:34:40,960 Speaker 1: Forests should be able to be more engaged, um in 3891 03:34:41,320 --> 03:34:43,720 Speaker 1: you know, the forests that literally provide them with their 3892 03:34:43,800 --> 03:34:46,720 Speaker 1: drinking water, um, and you know all of the things 3893 03:34:46,800 --> 03:34:50,080 Speaker 1: that they need, um to survive. So we should not 3894 03:34:50,200 --> 03:34:52,520 Speaker 1: be you know, locking off these lands and keeping humans out. 3895 03:34:52,600 --> 03:34:55,640 Speaker 1: Humans have a place in these lands. I've always had 3896 03:34:55,680 --> 03:34:57,720 Speaker 1: a place in a role in these lands, and um, 3897 03:34:57,800 --> 03:34:59,440 Speaker 1: if we take leadership from the right folks, and we 3898 03:34:59,480 --> 03:35:01,720 Speaker 1: could totally live in a much more reasonable way than 3899 03:35:01,920 --> 03:35:05,080 Speaker 1: the gender revealed party path. Yeah, and like I don't 3900 03:35:05,120 --> 03:35:07,160 Speaker 1: know if you know this, but like being in the 3901 03:35:07,240 --> 03:35:10,800 Speaker 1: forest is great. It's like it is great to be 3902 03:35:11,240 --> 03:35:15,480 Speaker 1: surrounded by giant trees. It makes you feel awesome. The 3903 03:35:15,560 --> 03:35:18,600 Speaker 1: last thing I want to talk about is um you 3904 03:35:19,040 --> 03:35:22,320 Speaker 1: mentioned before, like getting people who live in these rural 3905 03:35:22,400 --> 03:35:24,920 Speaker 1: areas who used to rely on logging, getting them are 3906 03:35:24,959 --> 03:35:26,960 Speaker 1: involved and doing a just transition, because this is a 3907 03:35:27,040 --> 03:35:29,200 Speaker 1: topic that comes out that comes up on climate change 3908 03:35:29,280 --> 03:35:32,400 Speaker 1: like everywhere in terms of like you know, like countries 3909 03:35:32,440 --> 03:35:34,760 Speaker 1: that are still developing not being able to have access 3910 03:35:34,760 --> 03:35:37,400 Speaker 1: to the same amount of fossil fuels that countries like 3911 03:35:37,600 --> 03:35:40,560 Speaker 1: the States you know had when they when when they 3912 03:35:40,640 --> 03:35:42,920 Speaker 1: were developing, and like how is that fair? Right? This 3913 03:35:42,959 --> 03:35:44,480 Speaker 1: is this is like this is a very common thing 3914 03:35:44,520 --> 03:35:47,200 Speaker 1: of in terms of countries that are better off. UM 3915 03:35:47,640 --> 03:35:50,280 Speaker 1: need will you know have kind of kind of like 3916 03:35:50,360 --> 03:35:53,640 Speaker 1: a duty to assist assist countries that are trying to 3917 03:35:53,720 --> 03:35:56,480 Speaker 1: develop and trying to get better standards of living. Um, 3918 03:35:57,520 --> 03:35:59,680 Speaker 1: because we profited off the fossil fuels and now they 3919 03:35:59,720 --> 03:36:02,040 Speaker 1: won't have the same opportunity if we're trying to you know, 3920 03:36:02,400 --> 03:36:05,760 Speaker 1: get to a carbon neutral world. Um So, in terms 3921 03:36:05,800 --> 03:36:07,880 Speaker 1: of like a just just transition, this is something like 3922 03:36:07,959 --> 03:36:10,120 Speaker 1: you know, a COP twenty six. There was supposed to 3923 03:36:10,160 --> 03:36:14,160 Speaker 1: be funding for adaptation efforts in in the developing countries. 3924 03:36:14,200 --> 03:36:16,840 Speaker 1: Now that failed because of course it's COP twenty six. 3925 03:36:17,040 --> 03:36:18,440 Speaker 1: But in terms of like, in terms of like this 3926 03:36:18,560 --> 03:36:21,280 Speaker 1: this idea of a just transition, how do you see 3927 03:36:21,320 --> 03:36:24,800 Speaker 1: this like locally in the rural environment within the States 3928 03:36:24,920 --> 03:36:27,039 Speaker 1: and for for like these types of areas, because like, yeah, 3929 03:36:27,040 --> 03:36:30,359 Speaker 1: because it's similar to like coal mining, the town's similar 3930 03:36:30,480 --> 03:36:34,280 Speaker 1: to you know, logging towns. How how does how how 3931 03:36:34,320 --> 03:36:36,880 Speaker 1: do you see this working? Yeah? This is something I 3932 03:36:36,920 --> 03:36:39,600 Speaker 1: think about so much. Um And we actually put out 3933 03:36:40,000 --> 03:36:42,039 Speaker 1: a platform called a Green New Deal for our Forests 3934 03:36:42,040 --> 03:36:44,240 Speaker 1: in the Pacific Northwest that talks like all about what 3935 03:36:44,320 --> 03:36:46,959 Speaker 1: a just transition could look like for communities. But I mean, 3936 03:36:47,080 --> 03:36:49,320 Speaker 1: this is a dream and I think it's like a 3937 03:36:49,400 --> 03:36:52,880 Speaker 1: really inspiring, uh inspiring path forward because what it means 3938 03:36:53,000 --> 03:36:55,120 Speaker 1: is that you know, we're not saying to end logging 3939 03:36:55,160 --> 03:36:58,000 Speaker 1: and we're not saying that rural communities basically need to 3940 03:36:58,080 --> 03:37:00,160 Speaker 1: like stop existing and getting funding from lodge. And what 3941 03:37:00,240 --> 03:37:03,360 Speaker 1: we're saying is that rural community members, what we that 3942 03:37:03,520 --> 03:37:06,240 Speaker 1: nostalgic dream that are that people are playing to, we 3943 03:37:06,280 --> 03:37:09,039 Speaker 1: actually want to have something in that regard. We would 3944 03:37:09,080 --> 03:37:12,680 Speaker 1: like people to you know, engage with and interact with 3945 03:37:12,840 --> 03:37:15,440 Speaker 1: their local forests. Now that shouldn't look like clear cutting them, 3946 03:37:15,800 --> 03:37:19,960 Speaker 1: because um, that's irresponsible and that doesn't benefit local communities 3947 03:37:20,200 --> 03:37:22,280 Speaker 1: or you know, of the benefit of future. But that 3948 03:37:22,400 --> 03:37:27,120 Speaker 1: could look like restoring these young mono crop plantations into complex, 3949 03:37:27,160 --> 03:37:30,039 Speaker 1: healthy forests. It could be looked like bringing fire back 3950 03:37:30,120 --> 03:37:33,320 Speaker 1: onto the landscape with prescribed fire and cultural burning, taking 3951 03:37:33,400 --> 03:37:36,160 Speaker 1: lessons from indigenous folks who are doing network UM. It 3952 03:37:36,240 --> 03:37:40,280 Speaker 1: could look like education and recreation and so many things 3953 03:37:40,360 --> 03:37:43,640 Speaker 1: of like you know, hands on engagement with backyard forests 3954 03:37:43,720 --> 03:37:46,640 Speaker 1: that surround us UM. And you know that that could 3955 03:37:46,680 --> 03:37:51,440 Speaker 1: look like basically firing the freddies and uh taking this 3956 03:37:51,680 --> 03:37:55,240 Speaker 1: land and giving it to local communities with UM you know, 3957 03:37:55,600 --> 03:37:59,920 Speaker 1: the with with conservation goals, but also goals to economic 3958 03:38:00,160 --> 03:38:03,120 Speaker 1: support by all of those ways you know, jobs but 3959 03:38:03,240 --> 03:38:07,880 Speaker 1: also jobs and recreation UM economically support local communities. So 3960 03:38:07,959 --> 03:38:10,879 Speaker 1: basically giving the land back to the local communities who 3961 03:38:10,920 --> 03:38:14,240 Speaker 1: rely on them and giving them power and control um 3962 03:38:14,400 --> 03:38:16,800 Speaker 1: to care for them in ways that makes sense because 3963 03:38:16,920 --> 03:38:19,440 Speaker 1: right now wall streets caring for our forests, and really 3964 03:38:19,560 --> 03:38:22,440 Speaker 1: it should be us. And I think one other thing 3965 03:38:22,480 --> 03:38:25,680 Speaker 1: on this topic, for like how how well propagando works 3966 03:38:26,200 --> 03:38:29,520 Speaker 1: when I was um at the stop plane three purchase 3967 03:38:29,600 --> 03:38:32,960 Speaker 1: camps last summer in terms of like how do corporations 3968 03:38:33,080 --> 03:38:35,840 Speaker 1: get towns to start supporting these ideas and how do 3969 03:38:35,920 --> 03:38:40,200 Speaker 1: they like foster this hatred of environmentalism um, despite you know, 3970 03:38:40,320 --> 03:38:42,520 Speaker 1: these areas often being the worst impact one of the 3971 03:38:42,600 --> 03:38:46,080 Speaker 1: worst impacted ones by these like effort efforts. Right uh, 3972 03:38:46,160 --> 03:38:48,880 Speaker 1: you know, you're they're chopping down forests near where this 3973 03:38:49,000 --> 03:38:51,879 Speaker 1: town is. Pipeline is going next to the town. If 3974 03:38:51,920 --> 03:38:54,240 Speaker 1: it leaks, it's going to cause all this problem to 3975 03:38:54,360 --> 03:38:56,840 Speaker 1: like their water splant and stuff. But like how they do. 3976 03:38:56,920 --> 03:38:59,840 Speaker 1: It's like the day of the direct action to block 3977 03:39:00,040 --> 03:39:04,360 Speaker 1: the pipeline, Enbridge was sponsoring like a town fair in 3978 03:39:04,480 --> 03:39:07,920 Speaker 1: like the little downtown area, and it's like this super 3979 03:39:08,080 --> 03:39:11,480 Speaker 1: surreal moment of being like, oh, this is like I've 3980 03:39:11,760 --> 03:39:15,040 Speaker 1: read this happened in like comics before, like and this 3981 03:39:15,200 --> 03:39:17,039 Speaker 1: this is like this is like one of Lex Luthor's 3982 03:39:17,120 --> 03:39:20,040 Speaker 1: favorite things to do. Like hell, like go into this 3983 03:39:20,160 --> 03:39:22,960 Speaker 1: like small town. Who's gonna start like this evil you 3984 03:39:23,000 --> 03:39:26,480 Speaker 1: know evil like a like lab at and he'll like 3985 03:39:26,600 --> 03:39:29,760 Speaker 1: fund like this small town event thing and like I've 3986 03:39:30,200 --> 03:39:33,560 Speaker 1: seen this before in so many superhero comics. Like I've 3987 03:39:33,600 --> 03:39:35,800 Speaker 1: seen this trope and that I'm just like living it. 3988 03:39:35,920 --> 03:39:38,560 Speaker 1: You're just like watching it happen. You're like driving past 3989 03:39:38,600 --> 03:39:42,000 Speaker 1: the town to go block up pipeline and then you 3990 03:39:42,120 --> 03:39:44,400 Speaker 1: see like Enbridge with like a little stage and like 3991 03:39:44,480 --> 03:39:46,760 Speaker 1: a little like fair and like everyone in the towns 3992 03:39:46,800 --> 03:39:48,680 Speaker 1: like dancing and they're giving up like free drinks and 3993 03:39:48,800 --> 03:39:53,560 Speaker 1: like oh no, like this is yeah, like you're like 3994 03:39:53,680 --> 03:39:55,560 Speaker 1: living the things like you know, a lot of it. 3995 03:39:55,600 --> 03:39:59,000 Speaker 1: It's about like this idea of like rein like reinvigorating 3996 03:39:59,080 --> 03:40:01,640 Speaker 1: like like you know like the the like the spirit 3997 03:40:01,680 --> 03:40:04,320 Speaker 1: of the town and injecting injecting new life into it. 3998 03:40:04,440 --> 03:40:05,800 Speaker 1: So like you know, this this is like a new 3999 03:40:05,840 --> 03:40:07,920 Speaker 1: one for like they're they're putting a pipeline down, but 4000 03:40:08,040 --> 03:40:09,280 Speaker 1: like you know, it's the same thing for like you 4001 03:40:09,360 --> 03:40:13,080 Speaker 1: know old like old coal towns, old logging towns, and 4002 03:40:13,160 --> 03:40:15,800 Speaker 1: these corporations will come in you know, make the town 4003 03:40:15,879 --> 03:40:18,199 Speaker 1: more active again, start putting on events, make it feel 4004 03:40:18,240 --> 03:40:20,600 Speaker 1: like more of a place, and then that that gets 4005 03:40:20,760 --> 03:40:24,680 Speaker 1: so the company gets associated with positive changes. Right, so 4006 03:40:24,800 --> 03:40:26,360 Speaker 1: then people who live in the towns like, oh yeah, 4007 03:40:26,400 --> 03:40:28,640 Speaker 1: and we're just doing all these good things for my town. 4008 03:40:29,000 --> 03:40:31,200 Speaker 1: That must mean they actually, you know, are gonna care 4009 03:40:31,280 --> 03:40:33,960 Speaker 1: about us here and then help and help us out. Meanwhile, 4010 03:40:34,040 --> 03:40:36,400 Speaker 1: these people from all around the country are driving through 4011 03:40:36,480 --> 03:40:38,879 Speaker 1: and trying to block the pipeline and the police are 4012 03:40:38,959 --> 03:40:42,400 Speaker 1: driving everywhere. Now it's all this chaos, right, these stupid environmentalists, 4013 03:40:42,480 --> 03:40:44,480 Speaker 1: they don't understand how this is gonna you know, it's 4014 03:40:44,520 --> 03:40:47,039 Speaker 1: it's we're creating so many jobs here, which actually didn't. 4015 03:40:47,120 --> 03:40:49,320 Speaker 1: Enbridge outsourced most of the jobs out of state, but 4016 03:40:49,680 --> 03:40:51,680 Speaker 1: they lied about the type of job creation. You know, 4017 03:40:51,760 --> 03:40:54,080 Speaker 1: all all all all this type of stuff. And this 4018 03:40:54,240 --> 03:40:58,080 Speaker 1: is a very very common thing totally, and like timber 4019 03:40:58,200 --> 03:41:02,039 Speaker 1: unity is like delivering would to people when the when 4020 03:41:02,120 --> 03:41:04,280 Speaker 1: when the snow storm happened and everyone was cold and 4021 03:41:04,320 --> 03:41:06,280 Speaker 1: didn't have power and they were you know, going door 4022 03:41:06,360 --> 03:41:09,920 Speaker 1: to door with mutual aid support. Um. But that is 4023 03:41:10,000 --> 03:41:13,400 Speaker 1: why you know, a remember how everyone should remember how 4024 03:41:13,600 --> 03:41:16,520 Speaker 1: how tricks e and how dishonest these folks are, but 4025 03:41:16,640 --> 03:41:19,600 Speaker 1: also be why um, those of us who want to 4026 03:41:19,640 --> 03:41:22,119 Speaker 1: see a different way need to be doing mutual aid too, 4027 03:41:22,560 --> 03:41:24,720 Speaker 1: Like we actually need to be out there in our 4028 03:41:24,800 --> 03:41:27,440 Speaker 1: communities and making friends and building trust and not just 4029 03:41:27,560 --> 03:41:30,200 Speaker 1: showing up to function up when it's time to function up. 4030 03:41:30,480 --> 03:41:32,080 Speaker 1: And I think that kind of like circles back to 4031 03:41:32,160 --> 03:41:34,360 Speaker 1: the point we talked about earlier, which is like building 4032 03:41:34,400 --> 03:41:37,000 Speaker 1: relationships with people on the front lines. Um. Looks like 4033 03:41:37,120 --> 03:41:39,280 Speaker 1: so much more than just like the defense of a 4034 03:41:39,360 --> 03:41:41,480 Speaker 1: bad thing in their backyards. It looks like, you know, 4035 03:41:41,600 --> 03:41:44,960 Speaker 1: mutual aid because the industry is doing it, um, and 4036 03:41:45,200 --> 03:41:49,280 Speaker 1: they're they're good at it, and we need to be better. Um. 4037 03:41:49,400 --> 03:41:51,840 Speaker 1: I think that wrops up for us today. What one 4038 03:41:51,840 --> 03:41:54,440 Speaker 1: thing I want, like, what what is going to happen 4039 03:41:54,600 --> 03:41:58,039 Speaker 1: going forward now after this, after this legal victory. What's 4040 03:41:58,120 --> 03:42:00,160 Speaker 1: kind of just to just just just just as so 4041 03:42:00,200 --> 03:42:02,080 Speaker 1: people know, like what is like the next steps that 4042 03:42:02,160 --> 03:42:03,840 Speaker 1: are going to be taken on the legal process that 4043 03:42:03,840 --> 03:42:07,120 Speaker 1: will kind of determine what what happens um with like 4044 03:42:07,240 --> 03:42:09,160 Speaker 1: you know, direct actions and going to see the forest 4045 03:42:09,240 --> 03:42:13,039 Speaker 1: in like in the future. Yeah, Um, well, basically we're 4046 03:42:13,040 --> 03:42:16,640 Speaker 1: waiting um for a date for this court case. UM. 4047 03:42:16,760 --> 03:42:19,080 Speaker 1: And so that will hopefully be scheduled if it if 4048 03:42:19,080 --> 03:42:21,480 Speaker 1: it ends up having to go through, which it might not. UM. 4049 03:42:21,600 --> 03:42:23,720 Speaker 1: Obviously there's going to be an effort made on behalf 4050 03:42:23,800 --> 03:42:27,120 Speaker 1: of lawyers UM to try and get the Forest Service 4051 03:42:27,200 --> 03:42:30,400 Speaker 1: to just stop, to just drop this shenanigan UM and 4052 03:42:30,520 --> 03:42:33,880 Speaker 1: walk away UM while they're you know where they're at, UM, 4053 03:42:33,920 --> 03:42:35,840 Speaker 1: because we we do think we have a really strong 4054 03:42:35,920 --> 03:42:37,880 Speaker 1: case UM that will win in court if it goes 4055 03:42:37,959 --> 03:42:40,840 Speaker 1: to court. So that's kind of like the legal avenue UM. 4056 03:42:41,000 --> 03:42:43,119 Speaker 1: Same story as what I said with the last time 4057 03:42:43,160 --> 03:42:46,760 Speaker 1: we talked. You know, if if logging is going to 4058 03:42:46,840 --> 03:42:50,200 Speaker 1: move forward in that area, whether that be because UM 4059 03:42:50,400 --> 03:42:53,200 Speaker 1: it happens in the future or because somehow this legal 4060 03:42:53,280 --> 03:42:56,200 Speaker 1: case is lost, direct action will happen. People will be 4061 03:42:56,320 --> 03:42:58,800 Speaker 1: out there in the way of logging. There's no way 4062 03:42:58,920 --> 03:43:00,520 Speaker 1: people are going to let that go down in the 4063 03:43:00,560 --> 03:43:02,960 Speaker 1: Brighton Bush community. UM. So right now we're kind of 4064 03:43:03,080 --> 03:43:05,840 Speaker 1: in a waiting game. We're watching and waiting UM. But 4065 03:43:06,320 --> 03:43:08,360 Speaker 1: you know, I hope the Forest Service knows now that 4066 03:43:08,440 --> 03:43:10,440 Speaker 1: they can't just get get away with stuff like this. 4067 03:43:10,640 --> 03:43:14,039 Speaker 1: People are watching. People are going to file public records request. 4068 03:43:14,120 --> 03:43:17,360 Speaker 1: We're documenting this and um, hopefully you know, we won't 4069 03:43:17,400 --> 03:43:19,200 Speaker 1: be seeing more of this, but because we live in 4070 03:43:19,240 --> 03:43:21,360 Speaker 1: the real world, the real sad world, we will be 4071 03:43:21,440 --> 03:43:24,000 Speaker 1: seeing more of this, and so, um, you know, we'll 4072 03:43:24,000 --> 03:43:25,840 Speaker 1: be out there again when the next forest is on 4073 03:43:25,879 --> 03:43:31,120 Speaker 1: the chopping block, which is probably going to be you know, today, tomorrow. Yeah, 4074 03:43:31,200 --> 03:43:33,920 Speaker 1: it's kind of always the thing. Um. Well, thank thank 4075 03:43:33,920 --> 03:43:35,440 Speaker 1: you so much for coming on to talk about this 4076 03:43:35,640 --> 03:43:40,600 Speaker 1: and the uh rare rare good news episode of Hey, 4077 03:43:40,720 --> 03:43:46,600 Speaker 1: something good happening. Thank you. In any other sources people 4078 03:43:46,640 --> 03:43:49,360 Speaker 1: can kind of follow along on the fight that the 4079 03:43:49,640 --> 03:43:53,879 Speaker 1: people can find online. Yeah, make sure to follow Cascadia 4080 03:43:53,920 --> 03:43:56,520 Speaker 1: Forest Offenders and Portland Rising tide Um, who will be 4081 03:43:56,680 --> 03:43:59,720 Speaker 1: definitely tracking and posting. You can also follow Cascadia Wildlands, 4082 03:43:59,760 --> 03:44:03,000 Speaker 1: who um was the lead nonprofit on the lawsuit and 4083 03:44:03,320 --> 03:44:06,640 Speaker 1: they've been posting about it too. Great. All right, thanks 4084 03:44:06,680 --> 03:44:23,039 Speaker 1: everybody for listening. Uh go see a tree, Touch Tree. Hey, 4085 03:44:23,160 --> 03:44:26,240 Speaker 1: We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from 4086 03:44:26,280 --> 03:44:29,320 Speaker 1: now until the heat death of the universe. It could happen. 4087 03:44:29,360 --> 03:44:31,680 Speaker 1: Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For more 4088 03:44:31,720 --> 03:44:34,520 Speaker 1: podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone 4089 03:44:34,560 --> 03:44:36,360 Speaker 1: media dot com, or check us out on the I 4090 03:44:36,480 --> 03:44:39,720 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 4091 03:44:40,360 --> 03:44:42,440 Speaker 1: You can find sources for it could happen here, updated 4092 03:44:42,520 --> 03:44:45,959 Speaker 1: monthly at cool zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks 4093 03:44:46,040 --> 03:44:58,120 Speaker 1: for listening, Mama. What does the chicken say? What the draft? 4094 03:44:58,440 --> 03:45:02,000 Speaker 1: Draft really do? Rat draw? You're not gonna get it 4095 03:45:02,080 --> 03:45:04,119 Speaker 1: all right. Just make sure you know the big stuff, 4096 03:45:04,200 --> 03:45:06,200 Speaker 1: like making sure your kids are buckled correctly in the 4097 03:45:06,320 --> 03:45:09,240 Speaker 1: right seat for their agent's eyes. Get it right visits 4098 03:45:09,520 --> 03:45:13,440 Speaker 1: n h s A dot gov slash the Right Seat 4099 03:45:13,720 --> 03:45:16,439 Speaker 1: run to you by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration 4100 03:45:16,480 --> 03:45:19,600 Speaker 1: and the AD Council. Make sure to check out Drink Champs, 4101 03:45:19,640 --> 03:45:23,000 Speaker 1: your number one music podcast on the Black Effect Podcast Network. 4102 03:45:23,240 --> 03:45:24,960 Speaker 1: Hosts n O r E and d J E f 4103 03:45:25,120 --> 03:45:28,119 Speaker 1: N sat down with artists and icon Yea, which Vulture 4104 03:45:28,200 --> 03:45:32,280 Speaker 1: called one of most significant interviews. I literally had to 4105 03:45:32,400 --> 03:45:34,440 Speaker 1: go like Danos and I don't want to have to 4106 03:45:34,480 --> 03:45:36,520 Speaker 1: be the villain. But when I went and did the 4107 03:45:36,600 --> 03:45:40,760 Speaker 1: Donda thing, they returned and anybody had to sit back 4108 03:45:40,879 --> 03:45:44,320 Speaker 1: and watch the real leader. Check out Drink Champs conversation 4109 03:45:44,400 --> 03:45:47,120 Speaker 1: with Yea and many more legendary artists, each and every 4110 03:45:47,200 --> 03:45:50,040 Speaker 1: Friday on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or 4111 03:45:50,040 --> 03:45:54,480 Speaker 1: where ever you listen to your favorite shows. What Girls 4112 03:45:54,520 --> 03:45:59,320 Speaker 1: in the Forest, our imagination and our family bonds the 4113 03:45:59,440 --> 03:46:02,560 Speaker 1: forest closer than you think. Find a forest near you 4114 03:46:02,800 --> 03:46:05,360 Speaker 1: and discover the forest dot org brought to you by 4115 03:46:05,400 --> 03:46:08,039 Speaker 1: the United States Forest Service and the AD Council