1 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:11,200 Speaker 1: My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 1: Listener mail. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. 4 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:17,800 Speaker 1: And here we are bringing you some of the messages 5 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:20,239 Speaker 1: you've sent us over the past couple of weeks. Rob, 6 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:22,080 Speaker 1: if you're ready, I think we can jump right in. 7 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: Let's see. Uh. Do you mind if I read this 8 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:33,520 Speaker 1: one from Kate about our navigation episodes? Make it so 9 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: so in our three part are on Pacific Island navigation. Uh. 10 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:39,479 Speaker 1: One thing we asked for was if any listeners had 11 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:43,319 Speaker 1: experienced themselves with sailing, if they had thoughts about it. Uh. 12 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: And so we did hear from someone. Kate wrote in 13 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: to say hello, Robert, Joe, and Seth. I'm writing in 14 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:51,879 Speaker 1: today in regards to the navigation episodes. I have multiple 15 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: reasons this episode hit home, but I will try to 16 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: keep it brief. First, I have the book you referenced 17 00:00:57,040 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: throughout the series and it is next on my reading list. 18 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: She's talking about We the Navigators by David Lewis um. 19 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 1: But then second, I am a licensed day skipper small 20 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: sailboats and also lived on a tall ship for five 21 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 1: months and crossed the Atlantic. During this crossing, the second 22 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: mate on board offered the opportunity to learn to navigate 23 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: by the stars, and no one else took advantage of it, 24 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:23,279 Speaker 1: which was good in that it allowed me a solo 25 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: course for our twenty one day crossing, but also may 26 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:30,399 Speaker 1: say something of people's disinterest in something they don't directly require. 27 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 1: The other thing I wanted to mention was that although 28 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: there may have been specialized navigators, there would have been 29 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: a massive amount of knowledge of the sea that would 30 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: have been as commonplace as our understanding of a stop 31 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: sign within today's society. The decline of this knowledge it 32 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: could be compared to even fifty years ago, when the 33 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: majority of people were able to keep a decent sense 34 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 1: of direction in the bush, or at least enough knowledge 35 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: to stay on a path that they wouldn't get lost on, 36 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 1: even if it wasn't a very noticeable path. Now out 37 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 1: with the urbanization of humanity, there's considerably less common knowledge 38 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: about bushcraft. It takes very little time for this information 39 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 1: to be lost to a culture. Anyways, I really enjoy 40 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: your shows, and my long drives to work are much 41 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: more enjoyable when I have something to occupy my mind. 42 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:18,519 Speaker 1: Hope you're all well, Kate. Uh, thanks Kate, And yeah, 43 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: one thing you say in here that I think is 44 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: absolutely true and that sort of comes through in uh 45 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:26,519 Speaker 1: in in Lewis's book, is that knowledge is a is 46 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: a fragile thing, especially if you don't have a written 47 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 1: culture like knowledge. In an oral culture, it could take 48 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: hundreds of years maybe to build up this this vast 49 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: store of wisdom and lore that's communicated from generation to generation. 50 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 1: But if you don't have like written sources of it, 51 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:46,919 Speaker 1: it could easily be lost in just one generation. Yeah. Absolutely, 52 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: I mean, even of course in a in a written 53 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 1: culture and in modern culture, there is still the risk 54 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:57,079 Speaker 1: of slipping into another dark age. And of course writers 55 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 1: have been um, I've been discussing this are pretty much 56 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 1: as as long as as we've been out of the 57 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: dark ages. Um, So it's always worth keeping in mind. Now, 58 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:11,679 Speaker 1: I like what the what Kate shared about about knowledge 59 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 1: of of of the bush Bushcraft. This reminds me of 60 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 1: our discussions I'm getting Lost in the Woods. I can't 61 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: recall that those were stand different episodes or that was 62 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:25,359 Speaker 1: part of our look at the leshy. Oh I think, yeah, 63 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: it was in the lesson and some follow up stuff 64 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: we did about the less Yeah, but just the idea 65 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 1: that that if you don't know anything about the woods, 66 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:36,839 Speaker 1: if you're just you've just stuck to the path, you 67 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: might well think that you can get off the path 68 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: and easily return, that your sense of direction will will 69 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: guide you and it will be something you can trust. 70 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: And as we discussed in that episode, experiments have shown 71 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: that humans do not have that innate ability. Um, if 72 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 1: you if you don't know what you're doing, leaving the 73 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: path can be fatal. Yes, and of course that varies 74 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: a lot with like individual skill in the local terrain. 75 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: You know, some places are easier to get lost than others. 76 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: But there are these stories, uh that we did discuss 77 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: in the least the episode about Yeah, people go, you know, 78 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: they think they're just going ten or twenty feet off 79 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: the path to go to the bathroom and then suddenly 80 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 1: like they have no idea where they are and they 81 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 1: can't find the path again. So I'd say that, together 82 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 1: with the Pacific Navigation episodes, just should make you to 83 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:26,719 Speaker 1: to keep in mind appreciate direction finding and appreciate the 84 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: tools and the resources you have. Appreciate the skills people 85 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: have in that area. It's it's very valuable, and this 86 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: something we often take for granted. Absolutely all right, This 87 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: next one comes to us from ian Ian Ritson and says, 88 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:46,040 Speaker 1: Dear Rob and Joe, I am still writing in about 89 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: robot punishment, despite it having been a couple of weeks 90 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:50,600 Speaker 1: since I listened to it. In that episode, you mentioned 91 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:54,039 Speaker 1: in passing that humans often have less conscious control of 92 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 1: our actions than we like to believe. This has come 93 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: up in other episodes as well, specifically the one you 94 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 1: did about how our choices effect our preferences instead of 95 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: the other way around. I meditate daily, a practice that, 96 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 1: among other things, can be looked at as a way 97 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 1: to gain more conscious control of your actions, emotions, and 98 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:13,039 Speaker 1: even your thoughts. Of course, this is easier said than done. 99 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: I wrote most of this email in my head this 100 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: morning while attempting to clear my mind of all thoughts 101 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 1: I've certainly been there. It's got me thinking about the 102 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: rider and the horse analogy and the criticism that this 103 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:26,719 Speaker 1: view separates the mind and body in a way that 104 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: isn't justified. We are inherently embodied beings. You've also discussed 105 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 1: this idea, which I believe with that. I believe Rob 106 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: saying we are more like a centaur, which I like. However, 107 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: I wonder if it isn't more apt than we give 108 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 1: it credit for. The common way the analogy is explained 109 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: is that people think of the mind as a rider 110 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: in command of a horse the body, but considered that 111 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 1: in reality, a human rider isn't actually in command of 112 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: the horse they're riding. As much as they might like 113 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 1: to think they are sound familiar, a human is not 114 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: strong enough to actually make the horse do anything it 115 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 1: doesn't want to do. All the human can do is 116 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 1: create incentives and disincentives to try to encourage the horse 117 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: to behave in the way the human desires. But ultimately 118 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: it is still the horse that is deciding what it 119 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:11,720 Speaker 1: will do. And this is I think this is a 120 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: valid point. And certainly uh in meditation and meditative practices, Uh, 121 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 1: sometimes your body is a bit barn sour, you know. Uh, 122 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: sometimes it's in a bit too much of a hurry 123 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: uh to get out of the wilds and back to uh, 124 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: you know, the sweet hay of the barn. Anyway, Ian continues, 125 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,679 Speaker 1: even though our consciousness isn't in charge of our actions 126 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 1: like we think it is, and it's mostly post facto explanation. 127 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: Perhaps it evolved as an incentive system to train our 128 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:43,160 Speaker 1: other mental processes. For instance, it may be my emotions 129 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,479 Speaker 1: and other lower mental processes that determine whether I have 130 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:49,600 Speaker 1: that second piece of cake, but maybe those are influenced 131 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,159 Speaker 1: by my conscious thoughts, or at least the conscious thoughts 132 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 1: I've had in the past. Perhaps my doctor has told 133 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: me I need to cut back on sugar, but at 134 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:58,919 Speaker 1: the last birthday party I decided to have a second 135 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 1: piece of cake anyway, and then, upon reflection, felt guilt 136 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 1: about having done so, which changes the emotional calculus this time. 137 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: As you've mentioned before, evolution is stingy and expensive. Things 138 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 1: like mental processes don't tend to stick around unless they 139 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:16,679 Speaker 1: serve a purpose. Perhaps this is that purpose. So maybe 140 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: the horse and rider idea isn't so bad after all, 141 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:21,559 Speaker 1: we're just drawing the line in the wrong place. Maybe 142 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 1: instead of the rider being the mind and the horse 143 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 1: being the body, the rider is our consciousness and the 144 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: horses the rest of our mental, emotional, and bodily processes. 145 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: The rider thinks they're in charge, but really they're just 146 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: one influence on the horse among many as an aside, 147 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 1: this brings up another way this analogy works well, the 148 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 1: feeling of loss of control when very upset. I'm sure 149 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 1: we all have experienced being so upset that we act 150 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 1: entirely on our emotions while simultaneously experiencing the conscious part 151 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: of ourselves watching our actions and thinking stop, I shouldn't 152 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: be doing this, but being unable to actually stop ourselves. 153 00:07:57,720 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: I suppose this would be akin to the horse buck 154 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: king and the rider not being able to do much 155 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: besides hold on. To go back to my original thoughts 156 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: about meditation, perhaps the way that helps us gain control 157 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 1: was by teaching us to be a horse whisper. We're 158 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: still without true control of the horse, but it helps 159 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 1: us be a heck of a lot better at motivating 160 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: it to do what we want. Ian Ian, I think 161 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: this is a fantastic analogy. I mean, and I think 162 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: there are, uh, there are truths to both methods here. 163 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: I mean, rob in your analogy of the centaur, you're 164 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 1: emphasizing that you can't make a clear distinction between the 165 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: brain and the body. The body influences the brain, of course, 166 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 1: the brain influences the body, but it goes the other 167 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: way too. You know, they're they're inherently connected, and trying 168 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: to think about them as like two separate things, uh 169 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 1: leads to some confusion. But I think Ian also has 170 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: a very good point here. Yeah, yeah, I I love 171 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: all of this, but also I can't help may be 172 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: reminded of the most recent episode of Weird House Cinema 173 00:08:55,960 --> 00:09:00,120 Speaker 1: where we discussed Spontaneous Combustion starring Brad Dorrif because that 174 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: is a that is, as we discussed, it's a film 175 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: about an individual who has trouble controlling his emotions, and 176 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 1: when his emotions are out of control, um, fire erupts 177 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 1: from his body, from the world around him, from bits 178 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 1: of technology, etcetera. And and he had he seems to 179 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,959 Speaker 1: have very little, if if if any control over these 180 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 1: these flames, and the flames are indiscriminate and who and 181 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 1: what they burn. Uh So I feel like that is 182 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 1: kind of a proper analogy for for some of this 183 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 1: as well. You know, this idea of loss of control. Stop, 184 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 1: I shouldn't be doing this because once the fire is out, 185 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: the fire does what fire does? It burns and um, 186 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:43,959 Speaker 1: and what can you do but watch very apt all 187 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:47,719 Speaker 1: John Landises take note. Um, But I would also say that, um, 188 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 1: I can see some merit to Ian's other points. So 189 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: Ian is uh I think sort of making a case 190 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 1: against epiphenomenalism. You know, So epiphenomenalism is one take on 191 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: the mind by the problem that would tend to say 192 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: that actually consciousness does nothing. I mean, consciousness exists and 193 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 1: it is. It is the part of your brain that 194 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 1: can reflect upon itself. But your brain could do everything 195 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: it does without being conscious. Consciousness is just some sort 196 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: of strange byproduct maybe that we don't understand, but it 197 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 1: doesn't actually have power over anything, and epiphenomenalism would be 198 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 1: something that's difficult to demonstrate. But but here I think 199 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 1: Ian is sort of equating consciousness with having some kind 200 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: of reinforcing power on the metacognition of the brain in 201 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,839 Speaker 1: order to influence future the future behavior of the brain, 202 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 1: saying that the consciousness actually does play this role in metacognition, 203 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 1: that that helps us better rain in our own mental processes. 204 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: And I guess that's possible, but it's hard to know. 205 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 1: I can't recall who's written like this before, but I 206 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 1: know I have encountered this idea that in some ways 207 00:10:56,640 --> 00:11:03,200 Speaker 1: basically sees uh consciousness as necessary to or coextensive with metacognition, 208 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:08,079 Speaker 1: so it remains an open question. Is the human mental condition? 209 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:09,679 Speaker 1: Is it a is it a centaur? Is it a 210 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: rider on a horse? Is it a character actor on fire? 211 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 1: Is it a satyr? I don't know. You can go 212 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 1: in various directions, all right, Oh, and so also apologies 213 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: to and I had to make some abridgements to the 214 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 1: previous email for length. Apologies to the next writer because Sean. 215 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: I also had to make some abridgements to this email 216 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: as well. I'm sure you'll understand. But Sean writes to 217 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:39,599 Speaker 1: us about sorry. I was just thinking, we've we've we 218 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 1: telled everybody not to not to say they sorry for 219 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 1: writing a long email, but now we're apologizing for a 220 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 1: carving uploo emails. Well, okay, No, So I don't usually 221 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 1: mention if I just cut out like a line here 222 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: or there at the beginning or end, that's just sort 223 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: of introductory material or whatever. But if I have to, 224 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: if I have to chop out like huge paragraphs or something, 225 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:02,559 Speaker 1: I might note it just just so the writer doesn't 226 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:05,679 Speaker 1: believe I missed it by accident. But maybe me saying 227 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:07,199 Speaker 1: this now means I won't have to say it in 228 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: the future. Yeah. Sometimes, folks, I'm just gonna have to 229 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: edit emails down a bit anyway. Uh, thank you very much, Ian, 230 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: And then Sean gets in touch with us about finger 231 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 1: counting and free San. Sean says, Hi, Joe, Robert, and Seth. 232 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 1: Someone might have written in to tell you this already, 233 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 1: but I have a method of counting to thirty three. 234 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 1: On one hand, I first learned this method from my 235 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 1: late father in law, who was teaching me how to 236 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: make thicker. Um. Well, okay, so the word here is 237 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 1: spelled d h i k r or d h i 238 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:42,199 Speaker 1: k i r. I've heard it pronounced thicker before, um, 239 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 1: but Sean gives a pronunciation guide in which he says 240 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: to pronounce it thick keer, which might be like a 241 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: regional language variation. I'm not sure. But but since, uh, 242 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 1: since Sean gives that, I'm going to say the keyer 243 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 1: instead of thicker for the rest of the email. So 244 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: uh in thick ear here, which is in his Lamic 245 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: practice of praying, Sean says, the first time he showed 246 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: me how to count this way. On one hand, I 247 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,440 Speaker 1: nodded along, but really it took a long time before 248 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:12,199 Speaker 1: I understood. I'll try to describe the method. Imagine each 249 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:16,959 Speaker 1: finger split into four sections. The fingertip, then each crease 250 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: where there is a joint. By placing your thumb before 251 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 1: the first joint crease of a finger, you can count 252 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 1: to one, then after that same crease makes two. Continue 253 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: up the finger, counting up one both before and after 254 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:35,319 Speaker 1: each crease, finally counting one when you reach the fingertip. 255 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 1: This makes a total of account of seven for each finger. 256 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 1: You can do the same with the index finger on 257 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 1: the thumb, counting to a total of five. As there 258 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 1: are only two joint creases in the thumb, four times 259 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: seven plus five makes a total of thirty three for 260 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 1: one hand. This is useful for the gear as each 261 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 1: mantra should be said thirty three times. However, I can't 262 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 1: imagine many other situations and what you need to count 263 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 1: to a base thirty three. I'm sure if one has 264 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: been learning to count this way since childhood it would 265 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:08,319 Speaker 1: be easier to remember. But after learning this method as 266 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 1: a second language, I doubt I'll ever be able to 267 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 1: master it for day to day needs. Technically, with mastery 268 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 1: of this counting method, you could count these single digits 269 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 1: on one hand up to thirty three, then count orders 270 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 1: of magnitude on the other hand, again up to thirty three. 271 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: So theoretically one could count up to one thousand, eighty 272 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: nine or thirty three times thirty three with just two hands. Absolutely, 273 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 1: I've never heard about this before, But then Sean goes on. 274 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 1: Sean says, changing topic. I wanted to offer my experience 275 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: of Freesan. I noticed while listening to an episode of 276 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 1: Listener Mail that you were talking about the backing vocals 277 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 1: of Gimme Shelter, and I experienced a wave of goose bumps. 278 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 1: I first heard these particular vocals in the original Freesan 279 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: episode and they triggered Freesan in me, but it was 280 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 1: unexpected that a mere description of the vocals would trigger 281 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: it too. I often experienced musical free song, as well 282 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 1: as a similar sensation in emotional movies or podcasts, and 283 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: sometimes while just thinking about an emotional story or movie 284 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 1: scene all the best Sean. Now, that does make me 285 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 1: wonder when Sean is is thinking about these particular musical bits, 286 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: are they playing out in their head? You know? Because 287 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 1: I find that like that's the case for me, like 288 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: if if someone was to mention say, um, like the 289 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: the very opening of Radioheads everything in its right place 290 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: or um, you know, or to or to say, hey, 291 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: how about that really that really uh dramatic part of 292 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 1: Carmina barana um which I know which which dramatic part, 293 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: but um, but like if if there's enough of a 294 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: of a hook there, then I will I do replay 295 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: it in my mind and then I can certainly feel 296 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 1: a certain amount of chills, you know, I can experience 297 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: goose bumps if it is the right song. Yeah, parts 298 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 1: of le miss for me, I will do that. Yeah, 299 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 1: I'm not sorry, no, no, lately, this is a good music. 300 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 1: I got to see it once. It had the big 301 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: the big wheel stage. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, you know 302 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: that actually powers the the whole the whole theater. It's 303 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: just the pure acting energy of the of the of 304 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: the cast and crew. They've got a little gavroche on 305 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 1: a hamster wheel. Yeah all right. Here's one from Taylor 306 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: and this has to comes to the response to our 307 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 1: episode on Queuing Robert and Joe. Great episode on waiting. 308 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: It finally prompted me to write. After years listing uh 309 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: consistently since the how stuff works days. In the Waiting episodes, 310 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: I'd be curious to hear more of our tendency to 311 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: wait or follow orderly lines when there is no line 312 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: or correct order. For example, in New York City, when 313 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: hailing a cab, there's always the situation where a cab 314 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: can pull over, but it takes time for it to stop, 315 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 1: so he overshoots you by a few feet. Innately, people 316 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 1: understand that the cab pulled over for me from the 317 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 1: line of I was earlier in the streets, so he 318 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 1: saw me, even if they may be closer to where 319 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 1: he finally stopped. So we make a line of where 320 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: you are in the street, even though there isn't an 321 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 1: actual line. I think I understand that you should prove 322 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:25,880 Speaker 1: this nuance. How we innately create unwritten laws by labeling 323 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:29,640 Speaker 1: the show the Waiting Part four, only to a week 324 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: later have a the Waiting Part three for thirty seconds 325 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,680 Speaker 1: when you point out many people probably waited patiently for 326 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:38,880 Speaker 1: a part three before listening to part four, because that's 327 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:43,200 Speaker 1: what people do. Great show, Taylor, I love these this 328 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:46,359 Speaker 1: guidance on how to screw with listeners heads. Yeah, I 329 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:48,640 Speaker 1: would do. I feel like we're doing enough of that, 330 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 1: um um without trying to So I don't know if 331 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:56,679 Speaker 1: we need to to orchestrate anything to sinister here the Taylor. 332 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 1: I do think that's interesting about the understanding of the 333 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 1: unspoken queuing rules for for cabs on the New York 334 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 1: City streets, especially since there is this there's this uh 335 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: cultural meme or reputation for like people in New York 336 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 1: being like rude and pushy and selfish and just trying 337 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,120 Speaker 1: to get ahead of everything. Um. I mean, for one thing, 338 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: we saw plenty of opposition to that in those Stanley 339 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 1: Milgram experiments which were carried out in New York City 340 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: or at least around the New York City area. But 341 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 1: but also I think that's, you know, to whatever extent 342 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 1: that's true, it clearly doesn't extend to people not obeying 343 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 1: lines like you know, lines dominate even when everybody's really 344 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: got to get a cab. Yeah, I mean, if things 345 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 1: get too out of hand out, what we're gonna have 346 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 1: to do is just make everybody roll for initiative. That's 347 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 1: just the only way to handle it. Let's get those 348 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: dexterity uh rolls out here. Let's let's see what we 349 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:48,679 Speaker 1: get on a d twenty and we will rank everybody accordingly, 350 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 1: and you will know exactly what order you go in. Alright. 351 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 1: This next listener wanted to remain anonymous, but they write 352 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: in concerning queuing at a place where where I have 353 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 1: experienced some of the most nerve racking lines and wait 354 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 1: times ever, which is at border crossing checkpoints. You ever 355 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:13,159 Speaker 1: have this experience, rob Um, Yeah, I mean going through 356 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 1: customs at the airport. That's that kind of thing. Yeah. So, 357 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: this anonymous listener says, I currently live in Chula Vista, California, 358 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:24,440 Speaker 1: and I crossed almost religiously to Tijuana for family and business. 359 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,439 Speaker 1: One of the biggest fight starters that always happens at 360 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: the border are those who cut in line via car 361 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: or foot. Fights and arrests happen weekly, especially people who 362 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 1: cross without appropriate documentations such as spring breakers or weekend drunks. 363 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 1: There are people who cross daily because of work or school, 364 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,399 Speaker 1: and there's always people who don't respect the line, And 365 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 1: when you least expected, a fight breaks out and the 366 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 1: cops show up, and then the border has to close 367 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,159 Speaker 1: for a while until everything is calmed down. People are 368 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: always in a rush. There aren't enough CBP officers and 369 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 1: the lines have taken from two minutes to four hours 370 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 1: on foot and ten minutes to ten wors via car. Uh. 371 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 1: This is through my own experience crossing through the port 372 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 1: at Santa Cedro. Thanks for taking the time to read 373 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 1: my email. Uh and man this one well, thank you 374 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 1: for getting in touch. But also this one makes me 375 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 1: think about some of the downsides of the single file 376 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:19,879 Speaker 1: queuing for access to things where they're like wildly different 377 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 1: stakes for different cures. So you have somebody like the 378 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:25,920 Speaker 1: person writing in or here, who probably has to cross 379 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 1: the border frequently, maybe every day for work and family 380 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 1: and stuff like that, and then at the same time, 381 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 1: like the same cues are being shared by like drunk 382 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: tourists who are just partying. I can't believe it didn't 383 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: bring us up. But this reminds me of a form 384 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 1: of queuing that I have really appreciated in the I 385 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:47,479 Speaker 1: guess few establishments that I found it integrated. And that 386 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,159 Speaker 1: is the idea of having two lines that I know 387 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 1: what I want line and the I need some helpline 388 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 1: um that's smart, that can that can really strange and 389 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 1: move things along. You know, if you know exactly what 390 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:02,120 Speaker 1: you're getting, let's going back to our bagel sandwich analogy. 391 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 1: If you just know you're getting the number three, no 392 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:07,199 Speaker 1: changes whatever, then then yeah, let's have a line for 393 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: those people. But if you need to enquire about about 394 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 1: changes to the menu, about about the ingredients, if you 395 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: need some guidance on which bagel sandwich to order, then yes, 396 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: let's have a separate line for that, and we can 397 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 1: have a specialized teller that deals with with those clientele. Yeah. 398 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:26,159 Speaker 1: I mean it may be the case that some border 399 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 1: border checkpoints have something like this. I don't know, but 400 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 1: I mean, if they don't, you should find a way 401 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,920 Speaker 1: to organize things into, you know, one line for people 402 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 1: who have business and family obligations, and then the other 403 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 1: all the spring breakers and stuff. Could they get their 404 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: own line? Yeah, but I guess that one of the 405 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:42,399 Speaker 1: challenges is just how do you any time you get 406 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 1: into a system like that, how do you do it 407 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:52,199 Speaker 1: in a in a way that's that's fair for everybody? Right? Yeah, 408 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:54,679 Speaker 1: all right, here's another one. Some comes to us from Chris, 409 00:21:54,760 --> 00:22:00,199 Speaker 1: Dear Robert and Mr Joe listening. Okay, it's the one 410 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: might might be maybe this is, uh Mr Joe, the 411 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 1: only person I think I've introduced you to as Mr 412 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:08,360 Speaker 1: Joe as my son um. But it's okay. I guess 413 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: if the people call you Mr Joe listener from the 414 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,359 Speaker 1: Science Lab days thanks for years of podcast stuff in 415 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 1: the Science Lab was, of course, the original name of 416 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,679 Speaker 1: this podcast way back in the day when I co 417 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 1: hosted with Alice and Loudermilk. Anyway, Chris continues queueing. I 418 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 1: had an experience with queuing yesterday that I had that 419 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:29,639 Speaker 1: I thought i'd write in with. I was at the 420 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 1: county Clerk's office to get a title from my car. 421 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 1: The queuing system was a paper system. You would get 422 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,400 Speaker 1: a number and have a waiting area. The wait was long, 423 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: an hour and a half, and during that time I 424 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,159 Speaker 1: saw a couple of things you may be interested in. 425 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,440 Speaker 1: First Off, several people left after waiting for a while. 426 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 1: This meant their number was getting unused. What is the 427 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,920 Speaker 1: morality of taking their number? I didn't get the chance, 428 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: as they threw it out while leaving. But would it 429 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: be cutting in line? I don't think anyone would have noticed. 430 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: They were too busy looking at their phones. What would 431 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,919 Speaker 1: that change the morality of it? Second, in a system 432 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 1: where it is easy to understand once you understand what 433 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: the system is. What is your responsibility as a line 434 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 1: waiter to communicate with others who are trying to understand 435 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 1: the system. In a normal queue, people point out the 436 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:16,879 Speaker 1: line and the end of the line for the person, 437 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 1: I think, to make sure the system is orderly for 438 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: their own convenience. In this case, someone stood waiting where 439 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: you would get called up as if there were a 440 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,680 Speaker 1: regular queue. Do you tell them or let them learn 441 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: to pay attention, perhaps allowing a person or two to 442 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:35,439 Speaker 1: grab a number in front of them as a lesson. 443 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 1: It felt like it was an an easy system. I 444 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: had seen many people figure it out before her. Or 445 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:44,679 Speaker 1: am I just being rude because I don't like to 446 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: talk to people anyhow? Great podcast. Thanks Chris Well on 447 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,639 Speaker 1: the first question, I think yes, taking the number of 448 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,879 Speaker 1: someone who has there's actually a technical term for this 449 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:58,920 Speaker 1: in the queuing literature. It's known as bulking. People who 450 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,880 Speaker 1: who look day line or look at a queuing system 451 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,879 Speaker 1: and then just say like, Okay, the service or product 452 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,399 Speaker 1: I want is not worth whatever this waiting or queuing 453 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 1: situation is and they just leave. That's called balking. So 454 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 1: somebody boks they've already got a number they you know, 455 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 1: they do a late balk and then they leave. If 456 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:18,919 Speaker 1: you take your their number, yes, you are violating the 457 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 1: first in, first out principle there, So I would say 458 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,879 Speaker 1: that is cutting. I would say the only real variation 459 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 1: on that is if somehow an abandoned number took as 460 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 1: much time as a as like an actual customer. But 461 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: usually an abandoned number just means like they call it out, 462 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,120 Speaker 1: nobody comes and they go to the next one. Right, Yeah, 463 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 1: I don't I don't know how. I never really thought 464 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 1: about this before because yet, generally, I don't think I've 465 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 1: ever seen anyone say, hey, I'm leaving, I'm I'm out 466 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: of here. Who wants my number? It's generally just discarded 467 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: or maybe they might sort of casually lead it out. 468 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 1: I don't know, but um, yeah, I guess I could 469 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,159 Speaker 1: see a case going either way. Kind of a gray area. Now, now, 470 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 1: this idea of balking, it's interesting because I I heard, uh, 471 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 1: I think an NPR story recently about balking in terms 472 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: of reservations for restaurants, UH, which especially during you know 473 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: this time when restaurants are are opening up often from 474 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 1: very um slim down models of operation, and you have 475 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 1: people do something that can make a lot of sense 476 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 1: on the consumer end. You you're not sure if you're 477 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: gonna eat at this restaurant or not. You're gonna go 478 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,399 Speaker 1: ahead and get a reservation. Maybe you'll go ahead and 479 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: get two reservations for restaurants that are close to each 480 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: other and see how you feel when you get closer 481 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:35,159 Speaker 1: to the time. And of course that may give you 482 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,440 Speaker 1: a lot of options, but it takes options away from 483 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 1: the restaurant that's trying to to to you know, to 484 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 1: to run a business. And so they're talking about how 485 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 1: some places are turning this model of of of requiring 486 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 1: you in order to make a reservation you have to 487 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: pay a small fee um, which which I have I 488 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 1: have done. I was kind of surprised when that came up. 489 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,639 Speaker 1: I was like, oh wow, this this place thinks they're fancy, 490 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 1: but they weren't that fancy. And after I heard the 491 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 1: radio story, it made a lot more sense. It's like, yeah, yeah, 492 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,879 Speaker 1: you want you want people to have um an investment 493 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 1: in actually following up on that reservation. As somebody who 494 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 1: has worked in restaurants, people don't do this. This is 495 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,679 Speaker 1: so annoying to the to the staff that works at 496 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: the restaurant. It can mean lost business of course, but 497 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,199 Speaker 1: it also is just like a huge pain in the 498 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 1: neck for like the host or whoever's managing the seating. 499 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: And a lot of restaurants they have like, uh cycles 500 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: of they go through cycles of giving the tables to 501 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 1: the different servers. So like you might have a server 502 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 1: who's getting skipped in one cycle of seating because they 503 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,719 Speaker 1: know they've got a big party coming next with a reservation. 504 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 1: But then if that party doesn't show up, they're just 505 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 1: out that table and out the tip. It just it 506 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 1: screws things up for everybody. It's extremely rude. Don't do that. Yeah, sorry, 507 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 1: I didn't mean to get a two finger wagg either, 508 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,440 Speaker 1: but no, no, I know it from the other end, 509 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I mean and from the consumer and like it. 510 00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 1: You know, it sucks to try and get a reservation 511 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: somewhere you can or you show up at a place 512 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:05,680 Speaker 1: and you can't get a table. Uh, So help reduce 513 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:09,639 Speaker 1: the number of like of ghosts that have reservations, you know, 514 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:16,919 Speaker 1: people that are never going to show up. Okay, one 515 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,159 Speaker 1: last message here. This is in response I think to 516 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,640 Speaker 1: a previous Listener mail episode and generally too Weird House Cinema. 517 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: This is from Megan. Megan says, hello, I've been an 518 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,159 Speaker 1: avid listener for many years now, and I love the 519 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 1: addition of Weird House Cinema and your recent Listener Mail episode. 520 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,679 Speaker 1: You were discussing why nuclear radiation is depicted as a 521 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 1: green glow rather than a more realistic blue glow. Something 522 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:41,879 Speaker 1: you didn't discuss was a fact I learned while getting 523 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: my Film studies degree, a fact that I can't unsee 524 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 1: ever since I learned it. In film, the use of 525 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 1: green often foreshadows death. For example, if a character is 526 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,640 Speaker 1: bathed in green light during a tense scene, the outcome 527 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,880 Speaker 1: is usually not good for that character. Maybe the use 528 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 1: of green to depict radiation glow is also related to 529 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: this cinematic shorthand, since radioactive substances can lead to illness 530 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: or death. Anyways, keep your eyes peeled for this. In movies, 531 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:12,919 Speaker 1: it is surprising how often a character's demise can be 532 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,679 Speaker 1: forecast by the color green being subtly added to the 533 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 1: character in some way. Thanks for all you do. Stuff 534 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 1: to blow your mind is the metric by which I 535 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:24,920 Speaker 1: measure all other podcasts. Megan, all that's sweet. Uh, thank 536 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 1: you Megan. Yeah, this is interesting. I think maybe I've 537 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:29,959 Speaker 1: heard this before, but it's definitely never been front of 538 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 1: mind for me. Yeah, I guess it's something I need 539 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:34,680 Speaker 1: to look out for next time I sat down and 540 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: watch a film. But it does bring to mind. I 541 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,239 Speaker 1: was I was looking at different Brad Dorriff clips for 542 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 1: a recent Weird House Cinema episode and I ran across 543 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,719 Speaker 1: one of those just unnecessarily grotesque scenes from David Lynch's 544 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 1: Dune that invent the features Clan Harconan sitting around grossing 545 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: it up, and and it has these just just disturbingly 546 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 1: green walls in the background. You know the scene I'm 547 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: talking about. Oh yeah, the very first time we meet 548 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:03,959 Speaker 1: the Harcone And so you got Baron harcon in there, 549 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 1: like I think he ends up like floating around the room. 550 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 1: But it's, uh, what's Brad Dourf has Peter Davries there 551 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 1: and what is sting in the room? I think, yeah, 552 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 1: I think, um fad Ratha is there. Also the Beast 553 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 1: is there, and yeah, so it's it's the whole crew 554 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 1: just hanging out in the room. Yeah yeah, but they're 555 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 1: hanging out in the room is just green. It is 556 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 1: just Lepericon green shockingly green, like green enough that by 557 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 1: modern standards, you look at it and you're like, is 558 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 1: this a finished scene? Is this is there? They were 559 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 1: they gonna add something digitally in the background, and you're like, no, no, no, 560 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: I think that no, this is before all that this 561 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 1: is just a really green color choice for their wall. 562 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 1: Do I recall that also in in Lynches Dune when 563 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: you see the harcon and planet, it's sort of green 564 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 1: on the outside too, but not like a not like 565 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 1: a natural green like trees and foliage and all that, 566 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 1: but it's just like green buildings. That sounds familiar, But 567 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 1: I I don't recall, It's been a while since I've 568 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 1: seen it in full Well, it's quite appropriate. Harconan means death, yeah, 569 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: and I think by the end of the movie or 570 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: all those characters dead. I believe they are. Um. I 571 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 1: don't know what happens to the beast, but I think 572 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 1: the beast dies. Yeah, Okay, spoiler for DOUN Sorry, Yeah, 573 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: I mean these these these bad guys are all are 574 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 1: all doomed. But um, but they cause a lot of 575 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 1: havit before that comes. It comes around. So oh yeah, yeah, 576 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: good good old Clan Harconan. All right, we're gonna go 577 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 1: ahead and close the mail bag here, but we will 578 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: be back, so keep writing in. We didn't get to 579 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 1: everything in this episode as usual, but we'll come back 580 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 1: to it. So right in with your thoughts about navigation, 581 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 1: about emotional outbursts and centaurs on fire, uh more, more 582 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 1: listener mail, about Harkonen's and waiting in line. We'd love 583 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 1: to hear all of it. Let's say yes if you 584 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: want to hear listener mail. It occurs on Monday, as Artifact, 585 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 1: occurs on Wednesday's Weird How Cinema occurs on Fridays, and 586 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 1: two season Thursdays. Those are our core episodes of Stuff 587 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind. Huge thanks as always to our 588 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 1: excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like 589 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 1: to get in touch with us with feedback on this 590 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 1: episode or any other, to suggest a topic for the future, 591 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 1: or just to say hello, you can email us at 592 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 1: contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff 593 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. 594 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the i 595 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 596 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.