1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, A production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio Happy Friday. I'm Tracy B. Wilson and I'm 3 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 1: Holly Frye. We spent all week talking about Sarah Wenamacca. 4 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,600 Speaker 1: That was not the plan. I was not expecting this 5 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: to be a two part episode, and as a one 6 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 1: part episode, it would have come out many weeks earlier 7 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: than it is in fact coming out, because for reasons, 8 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: we had multiple consecutive weeks where one episode was already 9 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: spoken for and we like to have our two parters 10 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:47,480 Speaker 1: both running together in the same week. And so once 11 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: I realized it was a two part episode, it was like, well, 12 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: this is not going to come out for several weeks 13 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: later than I had planned, which is fine. It just 14 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: means that we are recording this behind the scene on 15 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 1: October the twenty ninth, and it is not going to 16 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: come out for almost a month, maybe exactly a month. 17 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: That time will fly, so time, yeah, time will fly. 18 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:14,959 Speaker 1: We will be away. I think it's exactly it's exactly 19 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 1: a month that this before this will come out. For 20 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 1: a week of that, you and I will be away, 21 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: but then we will be back and this episode will 22 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 1: already be recorded well well well in advance, I said 23 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: in this episode, I really admire a lot of things 24 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:40,399 Speaker 1: about Sarah Winnemacca, and I also understand how controversial she 25 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: can be. Oh yeah. And I also think a lot 26 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: of people we have talked about a lot of indigenous 27 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 1: people from the nineteenth century in the United States have 28 00:01:56,200 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: in one way or another, talked about out assimilating with 29 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 1: white culture, believing that was like the only way that 30 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:11,919 Speaker 1: they would be able to survive. And my total outsider's perspective, 31 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 1: I am not indigenous. I definitely am not Northern Payet. 32 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 1: I feel like I have seen more criticism of her 33 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: today for some of these things than some of the 34 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 1: other folks that we've talked about, And I think some 35 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:28,640 Speaker 1: of that might be influenced by the fact that she 36 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 1: worked directly with the army, which has not been the 37 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: case with other folks that we have talked about. But 38 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 1: some of the stuff she tried to do was really 39 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: the opposite of assimilation, like trying to start that school. 40 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: And I love the fact that when she was like, 41 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: I don't have the money to build a school building, 42 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: she was like, all right, we're building basically a brush arbor, 43 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: and we will have school in the Brush Arbor, and 44 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: that is that will be fine. Her focus there, I 45 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: also thought was the idea of having the students speak 46 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 1: to her in their first language and her translating that 47 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:05,799 Speaker 1: into English as a way of learning English, I thought 48 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: was really interesting. Yeah. Yeah, she her whole life feels 49 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 1: like she walked that line in a way that is 50 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 1: not easy to really define her role in either world. Yeah. Yeah, 51 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: but it's one of the common themes of yeah uh, 52 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: which you know, I understand the feelings on both sides 53 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: of that equation. Yeah. Yeah. I also, I think I've 54 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 1: said before that like I am hard pressed to say 55 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: what I would do in that situation, Like if I 56 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 1: were part of a culture that was being aggressively colonized, Yeah, 57 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: what decisions I would make? What I would think was 58 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 1: the best thing to do to try to protect everyone. Yeah, 59 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: I have no idea. There's a lot of interesting literary 60 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: and sort of ethnography study of her book. We talk 61 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: in the episode about how some people describe it as 62 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: an autobiography, some as an ethnography. I actually read one 63 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: paper that described it as a captivity narrative, and usually 64 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: the term captivity narrative is used to describe white people's 65 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 1: accounts of being held captive by an indigenous group. Right, 66 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: But this person who had written this paper was talking 67 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: about all the common themes about this idea that so 68 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 1: often she and her people were being held captive. Another 69 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: thing that jumped out to me is her discussion of 70 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 1: her father's letter that he came back with after the 71 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 1: Mexican American War and how he called it his rag friend, 72 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: which that just charmed me. That phrase is good, But 73 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: her description of it as a talking paper. The idea 74 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: that paper and books and writing talk comes up a 75 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:10,600 Speaker 1: lot in books by people who were not literate at 76 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 1: the time of what they're relating, but they have either 77 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: become literate later or they have dictated an autobiography to 78 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 1: somebody else. So it comes up a lot in things 79 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:24,039 Speaker 1: like slave narratives, descriptions of like the talking book that 80 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: somebody had an encounter with because until that moment, like 81 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 1: the their conception of language had not been quite the same. 82 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 1: And so the idea that like this piece of paper 83 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 1: containing written language was something that spoke comes up in 84 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:51,280 Speaker 1: a lot of different contexts. Here's what's the most relatable 85 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: about Sarah and Amaka To me, And it has nothing 86 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: to do with any of this. It's that she had 87 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 1: this narrative of her life and that there are huge 88 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 1: gap years. There's a bunch of gaps. Like for anyone 89 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: who's ever been like I am going to consistently journal, 90 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: you will be like, whoops, I've the last time I 91 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: wrote in this journal was eleven months ago. I'll pick 92 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:19,040 Speaker 1: it back up again, I'll do better this time. And 93 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 1: then and I just kept thinking about us, even though 94 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: I know this narrative is written in a different way 95 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: and not necessarily as a journal, but I just like 96 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 1: every time we would get to a point where it'd 97 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:30,559 Speaker 1: be like, then there's a gap of about a year 98 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: before she did, I was like, oh, this is very 99 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: relatable to me. Yeah. Yeah. It also it made the 100 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 1: writing process of this episode a challenge because people who 101 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: have really studied her book have cross referenced it with 102 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 1: like other historical sources and have found that it aligns 103 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:57,839 Speaker 1: with things that are documented in other places. But it 104 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 1: was also something that she was writing years or decades 105 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 1: after things had happened, and so sometimes her timeline is 106 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 1: like a little bit off. Sometimes she will say a 107 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: specific year and it's not the exact right year, so 108 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: the things are happening in the right order, but the 109 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 1: year that she says is not quite the same. And 110 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: because my process of writing these episodes is that I 111 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: have notes that I take from a lot of different sources, 112 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: and I put these notes all into a document and 113 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: then I synthesized that into a new original piece of writing, 114 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: there were moments where I got so confused because I 115 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 1: would have had a source that was like the actual 116 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: verified year that something happened, and then I would have 117 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 1: a piece from her autobiography that said a different year, 118 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: and I would have a moment where I was like, wait, 119 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: I thought she was in California, Now why is she 120 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: in Nevada? And it's just like a year discrepancy between 121 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 1: her writing and some their historical documentation and getting the 122 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: stuff to be back in the right order was challenge. 123 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: Another challenge was the reservations that were part of this episode. 124 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: People called them a lot of different names at the time, 125 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: and some of them don't exist anymore. So there would 126 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 1: be times that I was like, I'm not sure which 127 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 1: reservation is being discussed right now. Mysteries mysteries. Yeah, so 128 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: the statue of her is at the Capitol in Washington, 129 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:44,199 Speaker 1: d C. I have been to the Capital. I don't 130 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: think I have seen it in person, but the way 131 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 1: that it is sculpted, her clothes, her garments are moving 132 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: in a way that's really evocative to me. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, 133 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:02,199 Speaker 1: it's also interesting in that the way it looks, it 134 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 1: looks it's like mixed media in terms of like the 135 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: way her skin is represented. None of it is like 136 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 1: true color, but it has like that bronzeish cast, whereas 137 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:19,560 Speaker 1: the rest of it looks like a Duller tone, which 138 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 1: is just interesting. It's an interesting choice. Yeah. I will 139 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: note she does seem to have had terrible luck with men. Yeah, 140 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: to our knowledge, she never had any children, but she 141 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 1: did have several marriages, and they all seem to have 142 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 1: been pretty short lived and not particularly happy. And a 143 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:44,199 Speaker 1: couple of the people who's writing about her I read 144 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 1: speculated about how she wound up in a series of 145 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: marriages that were not great. But it's all one hundred 146 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: percent speculation. We have zero, right, zero commentary from her 147 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: about that, And in some cases, she didn't mention a 148 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: marriage at all in her own writing unless I missed it, 149 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: even though it chronologically had already happened. She doesn't talk 150 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: about her father's death in her book. I went back 151 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: to go try to figure that out, because I felt like, 152 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: we say that her father died, and then we don't 153 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: really say anything further about it. It did happen chronologically 154 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: during the period that her book covers, but only barely right, 155 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 1: and if she had tried to talk about it in detail, 156 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 1: it would have kind of derailed the thing that she 157 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 1: was really ending on, which was the situation that the 158 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: Northern piety were in right now and what had happened 159 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 1: with the Secretary of the Interior and all of the 160 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: unfulfilled promises around that. So it is possible that she 161 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: did include something about his death that just didn't stick 162 00:10:57,280 --> 00:10:59,440 Speaker 1: in my memory. But when I went back for it, 163 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 1: I was like, no, I really don't see it here. Yeah. Yeah, 164 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 1: So whatever's happening this weekend for folks, I hope it's 165 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 1: going really well for you. I can't remember exactly when 166 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: this episode is coming out, except that it's the twenty 167 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 1: ninth of November, which I think will I think today 168 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 1: is the day after Thanksgiving. If people are listening to 169 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: this episode on when it comes out, maybe that sounds great. 170 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,439 Speaker 1: If so, you know, if this is a holiday you celebrate, 171 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 1: I hope you are just having a great time with 172 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:34,840 Speaker 1: as many leftovers as you want. My gosh, put them 173 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 1: all in the waffle iron, every one of them. Yeah. 174 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 1: So we'll be back with a Saturday Classic tomorrow and 175 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: something brand new on Monday. Stuff you Missed in History 176 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 177 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 178 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.