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Speaker 1: Welcome to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM paranormal

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Speaker 1: podcast network. This is the place to be if you're

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Speaker 1: ready for the best podcasts of the paranormal, curious, and

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Speaker 1: sometimes unexplained. Now listen to this.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to our podcast. Please be aware the thoughts and

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Speaker 2: opinions expressed by the host are their thoughts and opinions

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Speaker 2: only and do not reflect those of iHeartMedia, iHeartRadio, Coast

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Speaker 2: to Coast AM, employees of Premiere Networks, or their sponsors

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Speaker 2: and associates. We would like to encourage you to do

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Speaker 2: your own research and discover the subject matter for yourself.

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Speaker 3: Hi.

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Speaker 2: I'm Sandra Champlain. For over twenty five years, I've been

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Speaker 2: on journey to prove the existence of life after death.

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Speaker 2: On each episode, we'll discuss the reasons we now know

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Speaker 2: that our loved ones have survived physical debt, and so

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Speaker 2: will we. Welcome to Shades of the Afterlife. Have you

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Speaker 2: ever had to deal with a nasty skeptic, you know

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Speaker 2: the ones I'm talking about. You share your belief or

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Speaker 2: your thoughts about the afterlife and they shut you right down.

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Speaker 2: There's nothing you can do or say that can convince them.

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Speaker 2: The International Association for Near Death Studies also called ians

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Speaker 2: dot org, is our partner in changing the conversation about

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Speaker 2: the reality of the afterlife. Each year, they host a

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Speaker 2: conference that all are welcome to attend, coming up in

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Speaker 2: August of twenty twenty four. You can join the conference

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Speaker 2: live in Phoenix, Arizona. Details at conference dot ions dot org.

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Speaker 2: Today you'll meet four highly respected panelists, including doctors, professors,

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Speaker 2: and scientists Eben Alexander, Neil Grossman, Marjorie Woollacott, and Stephen Schwartz.

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Speaker 2: You'll hear their views on skepticism, these nasty skeptics, how

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Speaker 2: we deal with them, and ultimately how we can transform

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Speaker 2: the world. So let's start off with doctor Eben Alexander,

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Speaker 2: neurosurgeon and author of the book Proof of Heaven.

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Speaker 4: I had spent the first fifty four years of my

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Speaker 4: life honing a very kind of conventional scientific worldview. I

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Speaker 4: had the advantage as a youth of my father being

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Speaker 4: very scientific. He was chairman of a neurosurgical training program.

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Speaker 4: But he also had a very strong faith in.

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Speaker 5: God and power of prayer.

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Speaker 4: He was deeply spiritual, but also deeply scientific. I wanted

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Speaker 4: to believe all that I had learned in my Methodist church.

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Speaker 4: But in that career building up towards being a neurosurgeon

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Speaker 4: and trying to make sense of consciousness, mind and brain,

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Speaker 4: I just couldn't understand how consciousness could survive independently of

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Speaker 4: the brain. I bought into the materialist position of brain

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Speaker 4: creating consciousness, physical world being all there is, and I

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Speaker 4: now realized that I just had it one hundred and

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Speaker 4: eighty degrees wrong. My point is I often make these days,

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Speaker 4: is to the true open minded skeptic, I mean a

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Speaker 4: truly educated, open minded doubter of all skeptic, the first

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Speaker 4: position they reject, from materialism to idealism and all the

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Speaker 4: various dualisms relating mind and brain, the one that's the

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Speaker 4: most ridiculous is materialism. It's the one that is the

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Speaker 4: absolutely most hopeless. And so it's really just a complete

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Speaker 4: flip from what I believe before. But it's the one

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Speaker 4: that makes far more sense.

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Speaker 2: He was asked what recommendation he'd have to a skeptic.

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Speaker 4: I would recommend a strong personal experience. Good news is

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Speaker 4: that doesn't mean being smoked down by a truck, or

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Speaker 4: meningitis or anything else like that. We're all conscious so

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Speaker 4: we have the ability to go within. And that's one

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Speaker 4: thing I must say I loved about Marjorie's book, you know,

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Speaker 4: as a neuroscientist with similar training that I had had,

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Speaker 4: I loved the way that Marjorie was able to have

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Speaker 4: such profound kind of insights, awakenings, and revelation through process

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Speaker 4: of meditation. I think any conscious sentient being can come

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Speaker 4: to a much deeper understanding by exploring consciousness once you

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Speaker 4: realize that it's not created by the brain at all,

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Speaker 4: but is basically fundamental in the universe and is allowed

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Speaker 4: in through a filtering mechanism of the brain. Going within

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Speaker 4: is actually a way of going out into the universe

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Speaker 4: and gaining tremendous information, guidance, kind of sense of insight, connection,

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Speaker 4: meaning purpose. All of that lives in those realms, all

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Speaker 4: of real creativity. Some of the best, most extraordinary inventions

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Speaker 4: and concepts from people like Albert Einstein, Thomas Edison, Robert Lewis, Stevenson,

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Speaker 4: Salvador Dali, Beethoven, and others. They would all talk about

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Speaker 4: how the universe basically gifted them with these insights, these creations.

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Speaker 4: They weren't thinking their way to it, and of course

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Speaker 4: in our materialist world, and in the modern conventional scientific world,

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Speaker 4: we're used to this notion of thinking our way to it.

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Speaker 4: We establish a certain body of facts and empirical evidence

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Speaker 4: and rational thought, and then we follow that towards what

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Speaker 4: we think is the answer. And yet that slow kind

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Speaker 4: of methodical plotting is not necessarily the way to some

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Speaker 4: of the deepest truths and insights. I know certainly Einstein

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Speaker 4: was a beautiful example of that, just drifting off in

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Speaker 4: a sailboat being hauled in by the harbor police late

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Speaker 4: at night because he just got lost in thought. But

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Speaker 4: that's where so much of this comes from, and not

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Speaker 4: just following the breadcrumbs of our logical linguistic mind, but

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Speaker 4: actually opening our minds to the possibility and trusting that

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Speaker 4: the universe can show us so much more so, for me,

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Speaker 4: personal experience is absolutely crucial. I loved the quote from

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Speaker 4: Jessica Utz, who was a statistician who did so much

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Speaker 4: work with remote viewing, with precognition, things like that. She

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Speaker 4: was the head of the American Statistical Association in twenty fifteen,

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Speaker 4: and at her presidential address to six thousand plus statisticians

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Speaker 4: from sixty two countries around the world. She made it

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Speaker 4: very clear that the evidence is there for anyone who

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Speaker 4: studies it, and there certainly are people here. I think

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Speaker 4: Stefan Schwartz is well known for having a tremendous amount

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Speaker 4: of that evidence lined up supporting remote viewing, various protocols

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Speaker 4: showing the reality of this not in doubt. And yet

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Speaker 4: the American I got exactly the organization that supposedly summarized

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Speaker 4: the report to Congress AIAR. I knew their acronym, but

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Speaker 4: it was something about American Institute of Research or what

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Speaker 4: have you. But anyway, their report said that remote viewing

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Speaker 4: could not be used for operational intelligence, that the data

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Speaker 4: wasn't quite that good. But she said that in terms

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Speaker 4: of proving the reality of remote viewing of a precognition,

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Speaker 4: that we can know the future in many different experimental

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Speaker 4: settings that are mind bending. When you realize what's going

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Speaker 4: on there, it's very real. But her point, and what

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Speaker 4: she said in the address is when she talks to

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Speaker 4: all those experts out there, all the statisticians, the people

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Speaker 4: who manipulate this data and come to an understanding of it,

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Speaker 4: it's very real. She would ask them, well, have you

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Speaker 4: read the data? Are you familiar. What are you familiar with?

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Speaker 4: And they'd say, well, I don't spend the time studying

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Speaker 4: that because I don't believe it can exist. So these

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Speaker 4: are scientists, and these are the ones who get the

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Speaker 4: bully pulpit with NPR and New York Times Science section,

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Speaker 4: who say, oh, NDEs or they're hallucinations, they're not real

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Speaker 4: because those people have not had them. And not only that,

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Speaker 4: they haven't even talked to people who have had them.

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Speaker 4: I notice how Sean Carroll, it seems to be on

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Speaker 4: circuit these days, is kind of the atheist scientist. He

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Speaker 4: was on CBS Sunday Morning a week ago, and he

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Speaker 4: was there basically to debunk Dean Rayden's very high quality

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Speaker 4: work supporting the reality these kind of phenomena. And I

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Speaker 4: know in Sean Carroll's book The Big Picture, he very

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Speaker 4: proudly says that all he needs to know about near

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Speaker 4: death experiences has to do with the fact that one author,

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Speaker 4: Alex Malarkey, reported a near death experience but then said

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Speaker 4: he made it all up. And so Sean says, that's

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Speaker 4: all I need to know. In fact, he says in

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Speaker 4: his book The Big Picture, which is supposed to be

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Speaker 4: a very erudite look at modern science and understanding of

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Speaker 4: the nature reality. He says that no respectable people pay

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Speaker 4: any attention to things like NDEs and it just shows

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Speaker 4: this kind of extraordinary sense of closed mindedness. It's important

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Speaker 4: to point out when we talk about skeptics. I truly

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Speaker 4: believe that the open minded skeptic, who is very knowledgeable

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Speaker 4: about all this data concerning the mind brain relationship, the

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Speaker 4: one position you have to reject is ridiculous and impossible

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Speaker 4: as materialism, that somehow consciousness is arising from physical matter

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Speaker 4: and that that's all there is to it. And that's

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Speaker 4: why I believe that indies in many ways are the

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Speaker 4: tip of the spear. But there's no way from my

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Speaker 4: point of view, and I realized this early on after

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Speaker 4: my de that you can approach this just by hm, well,

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Speaker 4: let's study indies and learn everything we can about them,

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Speaker 4: because at the end of the day, people are still

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Speaker 4: going to come up and say, well, they didn't really die,

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Speaker 4: they just almost died. We want to know what happens

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Speaker 4: when you really die, and to do that, I think

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Speaker 4: you need a much broader view at the nature of

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Speaker 4: consciousness and the relationship between mind and brain. That's where

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Speaker 4: it starts getting absolutely fascinating. In that theater of operations,

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Speaker 4: one of the first things you realize is that the

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Speaker 4: old notion that we can only know things through the

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Speaker 4: kin of our physical senses, what I can see with

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Speaker 4: the eyes and hear with the ears, is false. And

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Speaker 4: that's what remote viewing precognition, all the work on out

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Speaker 4: of body experiences and of course near death experiences with

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Speaker 4: veritical perception, shared death experiences, and then especially that absolute

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Speaker 4: gold mine thanks to Ian Stevenson and the brilliant workers

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Speaker 4: at Division and Perceptual Studies Jim Tucker, of more than

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Speaker 4: twenty seven hundred cases now of past life memories and children,

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Speaker 4: where the best answer in many of those cases is

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Speaker 4: a true reincarnation. Anybody who's sitting there trying to find

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Speaker 4: memory located in the brain, or trying to find consciousness

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Speaker 4: located in the brain, had better start realizing that they

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Speaker 4: need to greatly enlarge their theater of operations if they

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Speaker 4: want to get to any answers at all. So it's

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Speaker 4: really all about consciousness, and that's why I love this convergence.

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Speaker 4: Over many decades of work both in quantum physics, where

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Speaker 4: it's now basically painted into a corner where idealism is

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Speaker 4: the best answer. You know that this is a mental universe,

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Speaker 4: and that mind is at the origin of all that exists,

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Speaker 4: and that all this beautiful physical universe seems to be

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Speaker 4: a projection from mind. And I think the best way

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Speaker 4: to look at that as an individual is just to

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Speaker 4: realize that the causal principles involved in our lives cannot

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Speaker 4: be reduced to the simplistic little meanderings of electrons, quarks

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Speaker 4: and protons in the sub atomic world with some bottom

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Speaker 4: up causation. But that's really where all this is headed

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Speaker 4: and taking a much bigger view, and the reason I

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Speaker 4: think it's been so challenging for the scientific community. The

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Speaker 4: conventional material of scientific community is really almost like it's

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Speaker 4: burned into the DNA over four hundred years of thinking, well,

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Speaker 4: we look at the material world and understand it, if

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Speaker 4: we get too close to the mental or the mind,

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Speaker 4: we might get burned at the state. That was the

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Speaker 4: risk back in those early days, and it's no longer

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Speaker 4: the risk. But there's this incredible intense avoidance really, and

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Speaker 4: I think Neil has in my mind one of the

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Speaker 4: best answers of that, and I'll let him get into it,

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Speaker 4: but it has to do with the emotions involved.

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Speaker 2: Now here's doctor Marjorie Woollacott, her most recent book titled

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Speaker 2: Infinite Awareness, The Awakening of a Scientific Mind. When I

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Speaker 2: was in high.

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Speaker 3: School, I actually was hoping I could go to college

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Speaker 3: and find out where the spirit or the soul resided

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Speaker 3: in the human body. But then I went to college

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Speaker 3: and started taking courses in biology, and they said, please,

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Speaker 3: that's impossible. I was convinced by my neuroscientist professors that

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Speaker 3: was a silly question to ask, and so I became

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Speaker 3: a materialist. Then, through a spiritual awakening when I was

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Speaker 3: at about thirty, I knew at the deepest level of

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Speaker 3: my being that there was consciousness beyond my body. But

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Speaker 3: it was very hard to talk to any other scientist

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Speaker 3: about that, and so I kept that really hidden in

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Speaker 3: a certain sense from my colleagues until probably about ten

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Speaker 3: years ago, when I was getting ready to retire, and

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Speaker 3: I felt then I could come out of the closet

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Speaker 3: and be open.

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Speaker 2: This is just the tip of the iceberg. We need

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Speaker 2: to go into our first break and we'll be back

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Speaker 2: with this amazing Hammel discussion about skepticism about the reality

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Speaker 2: of life after death and about what can happen for

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Speaker 2: the tipping point to occur that all people believe in

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Speaker 2: the afterlife. You're listening to Shades of the Afterlife on

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Speaker 2: the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM Paranormal Podcast Network.

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Speaker 6: Keep it here on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast

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Speaker 6: AM Paranormal Podcast Network. Sanders Champlain will be right back.

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Speaker 2: We are happy to announce that our Coast to Coast

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Speaker 2: AM official YouTube channel has now reached over three hundred

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Speaker 2: thousand subscribers. You can listen to the first hour of

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Speaker 2: recent and past shows for free, so head on over

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Speaker 2: to the Coast to COASTAM dot com website and hit

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Speaker 2: the YouTube icon at the top of the page. This

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Speaker 2: is free show audio, so don't wait. Coast to COASTAM

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Speaker 2: dot com is where you want to be. Hi, it's

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Speaker 2: doctor Sky.

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Speaker 4: Keep it right here on the iHeartRadio and Coast to

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Speaker 4: Coast AM Pyronormal Podcast Network.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to Shades of the Afterlife. I'm Sandra Champlain

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Speaker 2: and this episode is dedicated to dealing with skeptics. We'll

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Speaker 2: continue hearing from doctor Marjorie Woollcott, neuroscientist and her latest

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Speaker 2: book is called Infinite Awareness, The Awakening of a Scientific Mind,

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Speaker 2: in which she explores scientific studies supporting the premise that

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Speaker 2: consciousness functions beyond the mind.

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Speaker 3: I think that if I were talking to a skeptic,

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Speaker 3: the first thing I would find out is if they're

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Speaker 3: curious at all about the data, which I think you

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Speaker 3: were saying too, because a lot of skeptics aren't curious.

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Speaker 3: They do think they know the answer and then we

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Speaker 3: should just change the subject. But if they have a

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Speaker 3: little bit of curiosity, then I go and I start

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Speaker 3: talking to them about what data I have been convinced

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Speaker 3: by out there. First of all, looking at the near

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Speaker 3: death experience carefully controlled and designed studies by Kim van

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Speaker 3: Lommel that is here, Bruce Grayson is here, Samparnia who

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Speaker 3: is not here. A number of these research studies, their

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Speaker 3: prospective studies where you bring in everybody to a network

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Speaker 3: of hospitals that has cardiac arrest and then you interview

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Speaker 3: everybody who survived. You ask them what their experience was,

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Speaker 3: and you find out if they had these vertical experiences

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Speaker 3: where their heart has stopped, there's no EEG, and they're

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Speaker 3: watching everything that happened and that can be verified. And

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Speaker 3: I say to my curious colleague, well, how could you

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Speaker 3: possibly explain that EEG and the ability to actually perceive

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Speaker 3: what was going on in the room outside of your body.

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Speaker 3: And what I like most recently is that there are

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Speaker 3: now new studies on psilocybins. This is worked by Robin

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Speaker 3: Carhart Harris in London who has shown that when subjects

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Speaker 3: are given psilocybin, the brain activity and functional magnetic resonance

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Speaker 3: imaging actually drops down to very low levels, significantly lower

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Speaker 3: levels than normal in key hub areas of the brain,

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Speaker 3: saying that once again it's directly correlated with the intensity

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Speaker 3: of their mystical experience. So once again it's the lowering

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Speaker 3: of brain activity that is actually responsible for these beautiful experiences.

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Speaker 3: And now with meditation, Pinterberger and his colleagues in Germany

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Speaker 3: are showing the same thing that when you have thought

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Speaker 3: free meditation in master meditators, your EEG and all almost

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Speaker 3: all areas of the brain at all frequencies goes way down.

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Speaker 3: So this tells me it's not my brain pausing those things.

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Speaker 3: They aren't hallucinations because my brain is going inactive. To me,

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Speaker 3: those are really great evidence that will help with the

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Speaker 3: curious scientists who we hope will become a mystic. The issue, though,

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Speaker 3: is that if somebody isn't interested, I think that I

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Speaker 3: have to have compassion on them because I used to

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Speaker 3: be that way myself, and I didn't want to hear

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Speaker 3: about somebody that I thought was spiritual because I was

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Speaker 3: the scientist, somewhat an arrogant scientist, and I thought I

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Speaker 3: knew the answers, and it took an experience to actually

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Speaker 3: change me to really become open. So that's the very

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Speaker 3: interesting paradox about the two sides of this issue.

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Speaker 2: Next, let's hear from doctor Neil Grossman.

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Speaker 6: My parents are very strict atheist materialists, but their conditioning

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Speaker 6: didn't take with me, and the earliest ext experiences I

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Speaker 6: can remember, the memory just came to me. As a teenager.

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Speaker 6: My first teacher was really Beethoven. His music sent chills

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Speaker 6: up and down my spine. I could not explain under

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Speaker 6: materialist metaphysics why I was so deeply moved by his music.

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Speaker 6: I then went to MITS to study physics. When I

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Speaker 6: learned the quantum theory, the Stroding equation, Einstein, I wanted

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Speaker 6: to know what those guys thought about what it all meant.

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Speaker 6: Eighty to ninety percent of them were open to a

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Speaker 6: spiritual or holistic worldview, so that gave me permission to

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Speaker 6: go in that direction. I think what really cemented it

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Speaker 6: for me in those early years was my experiences with

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Speaker 6: my teacher and then mentor Houston Smith. I took Eastern

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Speaker 6: philosophy course, and when I was reading the Hindu and

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Speaker 6: Buddhist text, it just rang true to me. But then

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Speaker 6: what really drove that home is he was with the

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Speaker 6: Harvard Divinity School working with antheogens or hallucinogens or whatever

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Speaker 6: were called back then. I nagged him so much to

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Speaker 6: try it that he relented and my first had some

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Speaker 6: psilocybin at his home and it was a very very

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Speaker 6: deep experience, and from then on there wasn't really any doubt,

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Speaker 6: even though I somehow had to spend forty years in

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Speaker 6: an academic philosophy department surrounded by materialist atheists, feeling isolated

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Speaker 6: and alone. What of the empirical data do I find

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Speaker 6: most compelling or most convincing. I think if one is rational,

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Speaker 6: then what Evan and Marjorie said is absolutely true. I

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Speaker 6: think you going back to the time of William James.

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Speaker 6: He became convinced that there's a something more based on

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Speaker 6: his studies of mediumship, telepathy and other things that was

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Speaker 6: available to him. But I think at that time, from

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Speaker 6: just a perspective of rationality, the evidence was it met

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Speaker 6: the civil standards for ponderance of evidence, but not the

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Speaker 6: criminal standards beyond a reasonable doubt. Now, I think, with

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Speaker 6: the publication of Irreducible Mind, the evidence again from a

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Speaker 6: perspective of rationality, where we form our beliefs based on

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Speaker 6: evidence alone, not biased, right, the evidence has met the

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Speaker 6: beyond the reasonable doubt standard. What that means is that

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Speaker 6: if somebody looks at the evidence and doesn't believe that

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Speaker 6: consciousness is independent of the mind, they're being irrational. Okay,

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Speaker 6: So when I hold that, and then I want to

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Speaker 6: go back to again in a personal experience late seventies

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Speaker 6: early eighties, stuff about the near death experiences was just

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Speaker 6: coming out. Got moodies books Life After Life and ken

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Speaker 6: Ring's work stuff, and I got very excited. And so

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Speaker 6: for me, when I first read Moody's book, I had

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Speaker 6: no doubt whatsoever because it was consistent with what I'd

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Speaker 6: read from the mystics, my studies of world mysticism and

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Speaker 6: from my own psychedelic experience. So excitedly I went to

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Speaker 6: colleagues and what do you think of this? What do

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Speaker 6: you think that is all last gasp of a dying brain?

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Speaker 6: And they go through all the possibilities that have now

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Speaker 6: been completely refuted. But I asked, I remember this very clearly,

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Speaker 6: what short of having an experience yourself might convince you

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Speaker 6: that it's real? And this guy said, well, even if

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Speaker 6: I were to have such an experience, I would believe

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Speaker 6: myself to have been hallucinated. Well, this is a statement

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Speaker 6: of someone who's saying I will not believe it no

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Speaker 6: matter what. Right, So this is not rational. And so

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Speaker 6: if your question was, well, what can you say to

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Speaker 6: somebody who very irrationally has society. He's not going to

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Speaker 6: believe it no matter what, the answer is nothing. I

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Speaker 6: like to use the term coined a fundamentialist to invite

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Speaker 6: an explicit comparison with the fundamentalist Christian of any religion

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Speaker 6: who believes that the earth is less than six thousand

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Speaker 6: years old. You can bring the Guide to the edge

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Speaker 6: of the Grand Canyon and look down. He sees those layers,

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Speaker 6: a scratter of frocks the positive. That's not going to

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Speaker 6: shake his faith at all. And he said, well, God

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Speaker 6: just created the world that way, right, And you can

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Speaker 6: find there's a part of the philosoph well known that

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Speaker 6: whatever you believe can be held onto no matter what

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Speaker 6: if you're willing to make adjustments everywhere. Oh they're faking it,

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Speaker 6: they're lying, or this or that. People experience what they

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Speaker 6: want to experience, whatever they have all the answers. I

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Speaker 6: think their biggest response to it is a refusal to

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Speaker 6: look at the data. That's part of being irrational. When

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Speaker 6: you have a situation where I don't know of a

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Speaker 6: single person who has responsibly examined what we call the

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Speaker 6: evidence of the data who has not come away convinced

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Speaker 6: of it. So when you know that and you still

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Speaker 6: refuse to look at the data, there's something else going

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Speaker 6: on at rational activity, and I think I have a

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Speaker 6: hunch as to what it is. When I was reviewing

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Speaker 6: the book The Self Does Not Die, which I strongly recommend,

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Speaker 6: is over one hundred cases of documented ritical perception occurring

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Speaker 6: under conditions where it is known that nothing is going

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Speaker 6: on in the brain. All these people are or monitor

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Speaker 6: or whatever. See part of that book the author's dialogue

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Speaker 6: with critics and skeptics, and you can see the irrationality

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Speaker 6: just piled on and on and on. One of the

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Speaker 6: cases he talks about is the case of doctor Rudy.

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Speaker 6: So doctor Rudy's being interviewed and he's talking about one

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Speaker 6: or two cases which involved a near death experience as

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Speaker 6: somebody who just well dead and he had been declared dead.

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Speaker 6: He had seen everything, heard everything, and reported it. At

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Speaker 6: the end, doctor Rudy, he tears up and he says, well,

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Speaker 6: I always get emotional when I talk about these cases.

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Speaker 6: And I almost said outloud, yes, so do I. And

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Speaker 6: what are these emotions? And I think that's what is

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Speaker 6: behind the so called skeptic. They're afraid of their own feelings.

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Speaker 6: They're all bottled up and here dead from the neck down,

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Speaker 6: as we say, the academic intellectual. They are afraid of

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Speaker 6: these emotions that you got to feel if you're caring

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Speaker 6: for see people, if you're doing this research right, it

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Speaker 6: rubs off on you and you feel these emotions. And

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Speaker 6: I think the deep down fear is I'll say that

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Speaker 6: four letter word, is of the fear of love. They

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Speaker 6: tend to be very much into status, and reputation and

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Speaker 6: material acquisition and wanting to be thought right, all these

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Speaker 6: ego games that academics, you know, love to play. Just

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Speaker 6: just afraid that their emotions are just bottled up. And

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Speaker 6: I think there's something like a fear of emotion, and

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Speaker 6: that's not something that rational argument or empirical evidence can address.

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Speaker 6: So I myself am skeptical about whether there's anything you

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Speaker 6: can say to the committed skeptical. Actually, we shouldn't be

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Speaker 6: using the word skeptic. The Charlie Tart in his book

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Speaker 6: The End of Materialism suggests that we don't use the

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Speaker 6: word skeptic because that's a good word. We should all

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Speaker 6: be skeptical of stuff. They are believers, their believes in

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Speaker 6: an alternative ideology, namely materialism. Right, and just like a

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Speaker 6: fundamentals Christian, we could bring him to the edge of

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Speaker 6: the Grand Canyon and he would say to the geologists, well,

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Speaker 6: I'm skeptical of your theory, right, that these rocks strata

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Speaker 6: layers prove that the earth is older than what it

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Speaker 6: says in the Bible. Right, I have my own views,

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Speaker 6: my own faith, And so the fundament mentalist Christian can

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Speaker 6: claim to be skeptical in the same way that them

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Speaker 6: self identified materialists are today. And what sustains them their

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Speaker 6: skepticism is simply they won't look at the data, won't.

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Speaker 5: Look the evidence.

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Speaker 2: And here's Stefan Schwartz.

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Speaker 5: Wellhen I was twenty three, I woke up. I had

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Speaker 5: a series of what today we would call very meaningful synchronicities.

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Speaker 5: But it woke me up and I went from being

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Speaker 5: very much a person of my background in training to

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Speaker 5: something completely different. Changed my entire life. And for the

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Speaker 5: last fifty years I have been an experimentalist because I

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Speaker 5: care a great deal about data, and I created a

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Speaker 5: technique called remote viewing along with some other friends, and

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Speaker 5: I've studied healing, meditation, creativity and came to see that

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Speaker 5: materialism is a cultural affectation, not a scientific one. I

432
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 5: can expand on that if you like, but it is

433
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:25,120
Speaker 5: inconsistent with the data. I remain a data person as experimentalist.

434
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 5: I have found through my interactions with a number of

435
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 5: people as well as my own experiments, that clearly we

436
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 5: need to think of consciousness as something that is causal

437
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 5: and fundamental.

438
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 2: Let's squeeze in a quick break and we'll pick up

439
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 2: right where we left off. You're listening to Shades of

440
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,880
Speaker 2: the Afterlife on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM

441
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,120
Speaker 2: Paranormal Podcast Network.

442
00:26:58,520 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 5: Don't go anywhere.

443
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 2: There's more Shades of the Afterlife coming right up.

444
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 6: The best afterlife information you can get well. Shades of

445
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 6: the Afterlife with Sandra Champlain.

446
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,439
Speaker 4: Hi, this is your followist Kevin Randall, and you're listening

447
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:25,400
Speaker 4: to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM Paranormal Podcast Network.

448
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 2: Welcome back to Shades of the Afterlife. I'm Sandra Champlain.

449
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 2: We're listening to a very sharp team of experts about

450
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 2: why closed minded skeptics don't want to believe when there's

451
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 2: a lot of evidence that our consciousness survives death. Now

452
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 2: we're listening to Stefan Schwartz, who spent many years working

453
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 2: with the Stanford Research Institute and the government in the

454
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:08,119
Speaker 2: field of remote viewing.

455
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:13,159
Speaker 5: I remain a data person as experimentalist, and I have

456
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 5: found through my interactions with a number of people as

457
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 5: well as my own experiments, that clearly we need to

458
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 5: think of consciousness, as Plank told us, as something that

459
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 5: is causal and fundamental. When I was twelve, I witnessed

460
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 5: a near death experience not mine, but I witnessed a

461
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 5: young woman have a near death experience and nobody could

462
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 5: explain it to me, and so I continued to be

463
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 5: interested in that without really understanding anything. And then I

464
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 5: met George Ritchie in the early sixties, who was like

465
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 5: a sort of precursor to Eben, wrote a very famous

466
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 5: book at the time. And I have come to see

467
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 5: the quest to understand the nature of consciousness as one

468
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 5: of the primary challenges facing not only science but our culture,

469
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 5: because I don't think that until we fully appreciate the

470
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 5: causal and fundamental nature of consciousness that we will be

471
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 5: prepared to face the challenges of climate change and everything

472
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 5: else that is coming upon us. Because we must understand

473
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 5: that we live in a matrix of consciousness, and that

474
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 5: consciousness has continuity between lives, understand that materialism is a

475
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 5: cultural affect, not a scientific one. It arises from the

476
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 5: Council of Trent. Between fifteen forty five and fifteen sixty three,

477
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 5: the Roman Catholic senior hierarchy met in Toronto and Bologna.

478
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 5: They were concerned about reformation, but the outcome of the

479
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 5: fifteen meetings was that they issued an edict in which

480
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 5: they said, anything that has to do with consciousness, they

481
00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 5: call it spirit, but read consciousness. That is our world.

482
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 5: And you all in science you can have everything that's

483
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 5: in space and time, materiality. We wish you well with that.

484
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,239
Speaker 5: And it was very exciting because science was really just

485
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 5: getting started in its modern context. And then they said,

486
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 5: but there's one thing we need to tell you. If

487
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 5: you get into our realm of consciousness, will kill you. Well,

488
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 5: not only kill you, will torture you and will burn

489
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 5: you alive. Now nobody talks very much about this anymore.

490
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 5: It seems like ancient history. But the fact is that

491
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 5: for three hundred years, as science was developing into the

492
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 5: modern disciplines that we think of today, you literally not

493
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 5: only could lose your position, but you could be killed

494
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 5: as a result of dabbling in anything that involved consciousness.

495
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 5: The last person killed by the Inquisition, which that Trento

496
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 5: meetings produced, that church legitimized torture as an activity, officially

497
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 5: condoned torture chambers, and the last person killed by the

498
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,719
Speaker 5: Inquisition was in eighteen twenty six was a man who

499
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 5: was a teacher, a professor who was teaching his students

500
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 5: about the nature of deism. As a result of that,

501
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,479
Speaker 5: scientists who didn't want to be humiliated by being told

502
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 5: what they could or couldn't study, made consciousness a taboo,

503
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 5: and therefore they stopped studying it because you could literally

504
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 5: get killed. And so basically they took the position just

505
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 5: like children, well, if you won't let me play that game,

506
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 5: I don't care about that game anyway, and didn't study it.

507
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 5: So this is a really important point because what happens,

508
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 5: and what is happening now, is that we are experiencing

509
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 5: what Thomas Kohn, who probably wrote the most important book

510
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 5: on the history and philosophy of science written in the

511
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 5: twentieth century, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, he coined the

512
00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 5: term paradigm, and we are in what Kun would call

513
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 5: a paradigm crisis. A paradigm, from his perspective, was an

514
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 5: generally agreed cultural worldview of how the universe work, how

515
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 5: things work, and that when everybody kind of agreed to that,

516
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 5: they didn't have to discuss it anymore and they could

517
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 5: go on and solve the problems that he called normal science.

518
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 5: But what happens is anomalies begin to accumulate. You all

519
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 5: out there are living anomalies, and in fact there are

520
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 5: according to PIM, about four point two percent of the

521
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 5: American population, that's about thirteen million people, plus the tens

522
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 5: of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of physicians who

523
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 5: treated people who had near death experiences, who have had

524
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 5: a direct, impactful contact with the idea that as Max

525
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 5: Planck said when they asked him, what have you learned?

526
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 5: And he said, in response to the question, and it's

527
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 5: in the Observer of twenty five January nineteen thirty one,

528
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 5: he said, what I've learned is that consciousness is causal

529
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 5: and fundamental. You cannot get behind consciousness. Space time arose

530
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 5: from consciousness. Consciousness did not arise from space time. It

531
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 5: is the fundamental. The interesting thing about the founders of

532
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 5: modern physics is that they all came to the conclusion

533
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 5: that Plank was right, and so we inherited their equations,

534
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 5: but we did not inherit the wisdom and conclusions that

535
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 5: they drew from doing those equations. The central thing you

536
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 5: learn about dealing with skepticism is its mediocrity. Some years ago,

537
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 5: I was asked by ABC News to take part in

538
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 5: a debate with a neurophysicist named Jerry Levy and a

539
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 5: skeptic named Dan Dennett and ed may at Sri and myself,

540
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 5: And when it came my time to speak, I'd looked

541
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 5: at Dennett and said, since you have such very strong

542
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 5: feelings about this subject, I can only assume that you

543
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 5: have taken the time to actually deeply reach into the

544
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 5: literature and critique it, and that's where your feelings are arising.

545
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 5: Is that correct? And he looked at me in such

546
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 5: a condescending tone, said, you don't think I actually read

547
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 5: this stuff, do you? There was absolute dead silence in

548
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 5: the hall. This was all filmed by ABC. There are

549
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,959
Speaker 5: about six hundred reporters and news directors. There was first

550
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 5: of all absolute silence at that comment. Then there were snickers,

551
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:38,319
Speaker 5: then there were giggles. When I see people critique near

552
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 5: death experiences, I'm mindful, for instance, recently of Bruce Grayson's

553
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 5: exchange with Carolyn Watts and mobs. You see the quality

554
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:52,479
Speaker 5: of mediocrity. If you look recently at Daryl Bem's very

555
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 5: interesting experiments about precognitive awareness, in which he has been

556
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 5: replicated now to a point where there are is better

557
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 5: than one in a billion chance that this could be

558
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 5: possibly happening by chance, he was attacked by a skeptic

559
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 5: named Wagamaker, and he used as his basis for his

560
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 5: skepticism the work of a mathematician named Wesley Johnson, and

561
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 5: Wesley Johnson and Jessica Utz joined with Daryl Bem in

562
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:25,840
Speaker 5: writing a refutation of the Wagamaker critique, in which Wesley Johnson,

563
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 5: who was the basis upon which the critique was base, said,

564
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,879
Speaker 5: you didn't understand a word that I wrote. I could

565
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 5: give you examples of this over and over again. I

566
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:38,839
Speaker 5: think what we are experiencing is a change in consciousness,

567
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:41,760
Speaker 5: and this is not the first time this has happened.

568
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 5: Between the eighth and second centuries, there was something that

569
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,800
Speaker 5: historians know as the Axial Age, and during this period

570
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:53,399
Speaker 5: of time, as almost every major religion that we see

571
00:35:53,440 --> 00:36:00,120
Speaker 5: today began, all the pre Abrahamic religions began. Literally, consciousness

572
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 5: of humanity change. And I think that is the process

573
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,880
Speaker 5: and why this meeting has as many people attending it

574
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,319
Speaker 5: as it does. We are witnessing a change in the

575
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 5: consciousness of the culture, and I think that that is

576
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 5: very significant because what it is doing is helping us

577
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:22,760
Speaker 5: prepare to see ourselves as part of the matrix of life,

578
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,359
Speaker 5: not as something independent of it, and that only by

579
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 5: understanding the matrix and its relationship to the planet will

580
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,760
Speaker 5: we be able to prepare for change. So I applaud

581
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 5: you all for being here, because you are early birds,

582
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 5: you are the early swallows. Going back to Capistrano.

583
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:42,759
Speaker 2: Let's go back to Eban Alexander.

584
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 4: I was talking to my opening statement of Jessica Utz

585
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 4: and those statisticians, where she is basically saying, if you

586
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 4: look at the evidence, these are real effects. The statistics,

587
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 4: the empirical data point that out, and then of course

588
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 4: to and on basically the doubters out there, and again

589
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 4: skeptic is not really a very good word for them,

590
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 4: because Neil says, they pretty much made up their mind.

591
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,319
Speaker 4: They don't even want to review the data because they know,

592
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,720
Speaker 4: based on their theoretical model of the world that it's false.

593
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 4: But to end that little story, though, Jessica Hutzan said, well,

594
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 4: what's the best answer, more data or would you like

595
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 4: to have a strong personal experience. Almost universally what they

596
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 4: wanted was the strong personal experience. So the data is there,

597
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 4: but I think what really can help people to get

598
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 4: to the next level is the strong personal experience, and

599
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 4: this is why again we're such fans of meditation. A

600
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 4: lot of the work we do involve some tools differential

601
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:43,400
Speaker 4: frequency sound that intersects with the brain in the lower

602
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:45,879
Speaker 4: brain stem, as opposed to most sounds that have their

603
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 4: influence in the recently evolved near cortex. And I believe

604
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,240
Speaker 4: it's by going for the lower brain stem, by getting

605
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 4: its circuits that evolved three hundred million years ago that

606
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 4: were actually intercepting consciousness at a very primitive level. So

607
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 4: I believe that people can actually cultivate experiences. I think

608
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,319
Speaker 4: the real shame in what we're facing now, even as

609
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 4: much as I feel that the world is waking up

610
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 4: to this, and I personally know a lot of scientists

611
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 4: who I think are helping to lead the charge in

612
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 4: this kind of understanding. And from my point of view,

613
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 4: it's inevitable that over the next decade or so, the

614
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 4: scientific community and hopefully by extension, the world at large,

615
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 4: will wake up to the reality of these experiences telling

616
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 4: us something very deep and profound about the nature of

617
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,399
Speaker 4: human existence and why we're here. But I must say

618
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,839
Speaker 4: that in spite of the progress and optimism that I

619
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 4: sense in certain members of the scientific community. I find

620
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 4: myself somewhat distressed that the major media, for example, New

621
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 4: York Times, Scientific American, a lot of the places that

622
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 4: might be fascinated by this and want to share this

623
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 4: incredibly good news with humanity about the scientific investigation of

624
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 4: consciousness to date have really not been very open to

625
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,799
Speaker 4: it at ally. Please, and I know the people in

626
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 4: this panel are aware of some of the work that's

627
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 4: happened recently. For example, in our book Living in a

628
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 4: Mindful Universe, Karen Nowell and I push the position of idealism,

629
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 4: which I believe is the ultimate answer in terms of

630
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 4: any kind of framework of understanding. This is a mental universe,

631
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 4: and that all the physical emerges from that.

632
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:24,800
Speaker 2: This is a mental universe, and all of the physical

633
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 2: emerges from that. Wow, powerful words. When we get back,

634
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 2: you'll be extremely interested in the closing words from this panel.

635
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 2: Let's go to the break. You're listening to Shades of

636
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 2: the after Life on the iHeart Radio and Coast to

637
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:47,400
Speaker 2: Coast AM Paranormal podcast Network.

638
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:57,479
Speaker 6: Stay there, Sandra will be right back.

639
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,959
Speaker 2: Hey, it's the Wizard of Weird Joshua P. Warren. Don't

640
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:09,800
Speaker 2: forget to check out my show strange things each week

641
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:10,359
Speaker 2: as I.

642
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 4: Bring you the world of the truly amazing and bizarre

643
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 4: right here on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM

644
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 4: Paranormal Podcast Network.

645
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 2: This is Afterlife Expert Daniel Bradley, and you're listening to

646
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:34,320
Speaker 2: the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM Paronormal Podcast Network.

647
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:51,240
Speaker 2: Welcome back to Shades of the Afterlife. I'm Sandra Champlain.

648
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 2: I welcome you to do some research on these great folks,

649
00:40:55,400 --> 00:41:01,280
Speaker 2: Neil Grossman, Marjorie Woollcott, Stefan Schwartz, and our friends at

650
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 2: the International Association for Near Death Studies i AMS dot org.

651
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 2: Let's continue with doctor Eben Alexander.

652
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,399
Speaker 4: The recent experiments in quantum physics keep pointing us ever

653
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:16,880
Speaker 4: more strongly in that direction that entanglements reel, that spooky

654
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 4: action at a distance, as Einstein put is real. But

655
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:23,359
Speaker 4: what that really means is that consciousness is fundamental and

656
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 4: it returns tremendous power to human beings when we come

657
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:31,879
Speaker 4: to realize the implications of that in terms of manifesting

658
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:34,800
Speaker 4: the world of our dreams. The other kind of bastion,

659
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 4: in my mind, that kind of materialist thinking really belongs

660
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 4: in the eighteen hundreds but doesn't really belong in the

661
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 4: late twentieth century, and how it has survived is beyond me.

662
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:48,399
Speaker 4: But the other kind of bastion, as Neil will tell

663
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 4: you from working for all those years in an academic

664
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:56,240
Speaker 4: philosophical department, is our institutes of higher education. The colleges

665
00:41:56,440 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 4: are hardcore pushers. So this kind of material mindset on

666
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 4: our youth. I'm hoping that we can reverse that trend

667
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 4: very rapidly with this awakening, because obviously to change the future,

668
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:11,280
Speaker 4: we begin and have the most effect by changing our youth.

669
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 4: And that's why I love when we give talks and

670
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 4: we have a lot of young people there, but they're

671
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:19,359
Speaker 4: not the average you know, the average age of my audiences,

672
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 4: or people in their fifties and sixties and what have you.

673
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 4: But to wake up the youth, to bring this kind

674
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:29,400
Speaker 4: of knowledge and awakening, I think to college campuses is

675
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:31,799
Speaker 4: an absolutely crucial move. And then of course the other

676
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,799
Speaker 4: move is to awaken our mass media. I was in

677
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 4: touch with one of my editors for Proof of Heaven

678
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:40,279
Speaker 4: just a few weeks ago, trying to put this out there,

679
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 4: with the whole new series of proposed articles to go

680
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:45,760
Speaker 4: out to the press, and she said none of her

681
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:48,720
Speaker 4: journalistic colleagues who would write about this kind of stuff

682
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:51,839
Speaker 4: believe that indieas are real. So we obviously have our

683
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 4: work cut out for us.

684
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:54,880
Speaker 2: And here's Marjorie will accut.

685
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 3: I just want to add one thing that related to

686
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 3: the academic community. If you do look at panel and

687
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 3: many of the people out here in the audience, we

688
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 3: are talking because we are toward the end of our

689
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:09,200
Speaker 3: professions and we don't have to worry about credibility amongst

690
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 3: our colleagues in terms of getting tenure, getting promotion, and

691
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 3: getting our grants funded and getting papers published. When I

692
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:20,320
Speaker 3: publish a regular paper in neuro rehabilitation, there's no question

693
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 3: about it's being accepted by a major journal. When I

694
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 3: put the word meditation on it, suddenly it's like, oh,

695
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:28,359
Speaker 3: this isn't real research, and we don't publish that kind

696
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:31,360
Speaker 3: of research. It's just observational. It's not real science. I

697
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:33,239
Speaker 3: think with Pim Van Loomo said in one of his

698
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:36,719
Speaker 3: interviews something about the idea that our National Academy of

699
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:40,640
Speaker 3: Sciences has most people there who are atheists and materialists,

700
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:44,760
Speaker 3: and until we change that, we're not going to change.

701
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 3: Really all of the young people at universities having the

702
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 3: ability to get tenure and get promotion who have ideas

703
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 3: about consciousness being fundamental. So, as Evan was saying, we

704
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 3: need to start with the young people. We've just started

705
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 3: a new Academy for the Advancement of Post Materialist Sciences

706
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:02,279
Speaker 3: and Stefan is on the board, and we're trying to

707
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 3: encourage young professors to do research in this area and

708
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:08,840
Speaker 3: help them with the gaining of promotion and tenure and

709
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 3: things like that so that we can begin to change

710
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 3: the academic communities culture.

711
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:15,360
Speaker 2: Here's Stefan Schwartz.

712
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:18,799
Speaker 5: I want to leave you with this thought. There is

713
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:21,319
Speaker 5: a lot of research that has been done, particularly at

714
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:24,360
Speaker 5: Van Rensler Politech, about how many people it takes to

715
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 5: change the culture. This idea that the few change the many.

716
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 5: Very few people understand that the American Revolution that only

717
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 5: about three percent of the population supported it and only

718
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:38,759
Speaker 5: about thirteen percent of it were actually involved in it.

719
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:43,920
Speaker 5: So this is small groups of people who begin to

720
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:47,279
Speaker 5: give you examples of how this process works. And I'm

721
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 5: up here doing this panel because I'm into social transformation.

722
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 5: I believe in data, and I think the data is

723
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:58,839
Speaker 5: absolutely clear there are now at least nine protocols that

724
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:02,400
Speaker 5: are carried out at uniities all over the world. That is,

725
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:05,359
Speaker 5: it's a billion to one that they're not correct. I

726
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 5: don't think the question is data anymore. I think the

727
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 5: question is culture, and the question about how to do

728
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 5: this is by changing people's state of consciousness in your

729
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:21,799
Speaker 5: immediate community in which you live. Look at smoking. I

730
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 5: can look out at this audience and a lot of

731
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 5: people younger than me, but nonetheless old enough to remember

732
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 5: that when you went to somebody's house there was on

733
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:31,880
Speaker 5: the coffee table, there was a pack of cigarettes, and

734
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:34,919
Speaker 5: an ashtray and one of those ronson lighters your mother

735
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:38,279
Speaker 5: told you not to fool with. Today, you never see

736
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:44,279
Speaker 5: hardly anybody smoking. This is about changing consciousness. And if

737
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:49,960
Speaker 5: we change consciousness by our beingness, that is the nature

738
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 5: of who we are and what we stand for. Just

739
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 5: before Gandhi was assassinated in nineteen forty eight, he was

740
00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 5: interviewed by the Times of India. They porter that was

741
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 5: set up to interview him up in his ashram came

742
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 5: to him and said, Goh Gandhaji, my editor says, I

743
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:10,839
Speaker 5: only should ask you one question, and Gandhi said, well,

744
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:14,399
Speaker 5: what's the question, And he said, my question is how

745
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:18,160
Speaker 5: did you force the British to leave India? They were

746
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:21,719
Speaker 5: one of the most powerful nations on earth. India was

747
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 5: the crown jewel of their colonial empire. You are a

748
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 5: man who had no official position, you had no money,

749
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 5: you had no army. How did you force them to leave?

750
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:34,919
Speaker 5: And Gandhi's answer is the point that I want to make.

751
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:38,480
Speaker 5: He said, it isn't what we did that mattered, although

752
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:42,360
Speaker 5: that mattered. It isn't what we said that mattered, although

753
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:47,560
Speaker 5: that mattered too. It was the nature of our character

754
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 5: who we are, that led the British to choose to

755
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 5: leave India. The difference between force and choose, those two

756
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:01,120
Speaker 5: verbs is the key to this thing. You all are

757
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 5: the beginning group. There are thirteen million of you. We

758
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:08,480
Speaker 5: have three hundred and eighteen million people in the United States.

759
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:12,959
Speaker 5: When we get to thirty one million thereabouts, we're going

760
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:16,359
Speaker 5: to see a fundamental change in the culture. And this

761
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:21,239
Speaker 5: change is absolutely essential because, as I said earlier, it

762
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:24,520
Speaker 5: is the only way we are going to create a

763
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 5: culture focused on well being that will allow us to

764
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:31,719
Speaker 5: move into the future. And I invite you to join

765
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:32,839
Speaker 5: me in doing.

766
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 2: That, And here is Neil Grossman.

767
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 6: I certainly do agree with Stefan that we are on

768
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:41,360
Speaker 6: the cusp of a cultural change. I think our present

769
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:45,280
Speaker 6: leadership is the one step backwards or a giant spring

770
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:48,840
Speaker 6: forward in the coming years. But I'm an optimist and

771
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:52,400
Speaker 6: I've been wrong before. Nevertheless, I want to get back

772
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:56,840
Speaker 6: to ask Evan a question about arriving at a belief

773
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:01,920
Speaker 6: based on evidence, rationality thing and coming to a belief

774
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:05,319
Speaker 6: based on direct experience. I think Evan is right that

775
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:10,000
Speaker 6: it's direct experience that wins every time. But yet, having

776
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:13,360
Speaker 6: been a philosopher and taught critical thinking, I do believe

777
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:18,799
Speaker 6: that rational argumentation examining the evidence is important or not unimportant.

778
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:21,239
Speaker 6: So I want to ask you, Evan, because you were

779
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:23,440
Speaker 6: not looking at the evidence when you were at Harvard

780
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 6: Brain Surgeon, because you believed, like Dennett, that it was

781
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:29,360
Speaker 6: a lot of crap. Right, And Dennett, incidentally is a

782
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 6: hero to academic philosophers, And that tells you something about

783
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:34,960
Speaker 6: the environment I've been in the last forty years. So

784
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:38,160
Speaker 6: suppose someone took a gun to your head, Evan and said, Evan,

785
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 6: for the next nine months, you have to immerse yourself

786
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 6: in what irreducible mind and that kind of thing. You

787
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:47,879
Speaker 6: read the papers and the books and all of that,

788
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 6: would anything there have convinced you.

789
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 4: Absolutely. I think the evidence is overwhelming. The problem was

790
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 4: that was not in my field of purview. But I

791
00:48:57,640 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 4: believe anyone who takes a look at the evidence. I

792
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:03,560
Speaker 4: know how much trouble we've had finding debate opponents who

793
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:07,800
Speaker 4: support the materialist position because they're a dwindling breed, because

794
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:10,879
Speaker 4: once they start actually looking at the evidence, they jump

795
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:15,320
Speaker 4: ship because there really is nothing to support that materialist position.

796
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:18,440
Speaker 4: That is what is so astonishing. So yes, the evidence

797
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:20,200
Speaker 4: is all around us. All we have to do is

798
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 4: look at, certainly for the scientific crowd, irreducible mind beyond physicalism.

799
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 4: Those are absolutely landmark books from division and perceptual studies.

800
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:30,680
Speaker 4: But there are other books that I think for kind

801
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:33,279
Speaker 4: of the lay press. The Self Does Not Die is

802
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 4: a very important work, and I think that book is

803
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 4: crucial in getting out there. I love Science of Near

804
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 4: Death Experiences by John C. Hagen. Third, I think is

805
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:45,319
Speaker 4: a very concise kind of medical, peer reviewed work that

806
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:48,319
Speaker 4: properly reflects on this. The evidence is out there, and

807
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:50,400
Speaker 4: there are many other books that have come to the

808
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:53,720
Speaker 4: four recently that I think are hitting on the same

809
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:56,840
Speaker 4: kind of target, like our book Living in a Mindful Universe,

810
00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:00,799
Speaker 4: Minos Cavatos and deep Ac Chopers book The Universe of

811
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:03,399
Speaker 4: a bunch of different works, and there's some that are

812
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:05,759
Speaker 4: to come out in the next year or so that

813
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:07,759
Speaker 4: I think are also crucial and take it to the

814
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 4: next level, like Bernardo Castrip's coming book in April of

815
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 4: next year of the Idea of the World. And there

816
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:16,959
Speaker 4: are others. So I think the evidence is there.

817
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 2: Let's go back to Stefan Schwartz.

818
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:21,960
Speaker 5: I would recommend that you look at the structure of

819
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 5: scientific revolutions and read it not in terms of science,

820
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 5: but in terms of how culture changes, because it's very important.

821
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 5: I would suggest One Mind by Larry Dassi is a

822
00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:35,880
Speaker 5: very good book. I recommend very strongly Pim Van Lommel's

823
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 5: book Consciousness Beyond Life and Dean Raiden's Entangled Mind, I

824
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:47,880
Speaker 5: think is an excellent book. I encourage people to look

825
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:52,359
Speaker 5: at the journal Explore. If you're in the professional community,

826
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 5: these are academic papers, but Explore is a journal for

827
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:59,200
Speaker 5: those of you who are in that medical world that

828
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:04,320
Speaker 5: is folkocused on what science looks like when it incorporates

829
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:06,720
Speaker 5: consciousness within its rubric.

830
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:09,920
Speaker 6: And back to Neil Grossman, I think that Stephen is

831
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:12,439
Speaker 6: very right, and he talks about this as a cultural thing.

832
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:15,960
Speaker 6: What's emerging from the data. It's not just a belief

833
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:18,200
Speaker 6: that consciousness is not created by the brain. But the

834
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:21,239
Speaker 6: consequence of this is that unconditional love is the most

835
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:24,600
Speaker 6: important thing in the universe, and that's what we must

836
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 6: aspire to. And that's what happened to me in the

837
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:30,279
Speaker 6: forty years in the desert is in some way I

838
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:34,359
Speaker 6: came to love my colleagues and accept them. But this

839
00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:38,960
Speaker 6: unconditional love business is completely inconsistent with the social order

840
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:42,759
Speaker 6: we have today. Capitalism is a greed based social order,

841
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:45,759
Speaker 6: and the people who are the neediest and greediest are

842
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:48,120
Speaker 6: the ones who went to the top and are running

843
00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:52,239
Speaker 6: things now. And how we change from that to a

844
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 6: world order governed by the principles of unconditional love. I

845
00:51:56,719 --> 00:51:58,960
Speaker 6: don't know how it's going to happen, but it has

846
00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:01,560
Speaker 6: to happen or we're not going to make it.

847
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:04,720
Speaker 2: I believe we are going to make it. Why because

848
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:08,080
Speaker 2: I was once one of those closed minded skeptics. What

849
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:11,760
Speaker 2: changed me was the fear of dying. What may change

850
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:16,080
Speaker 2: you a loved one passes an illness. My advice for

851
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:20,360
Speaker 2: all of us keep our integrity, share, be a kind

852
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:23,640
Speaker 2: and loving person, and you know how it feels good

853
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 2: to be around. Good people will have a ripple effect

854
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:31,200
Speaker 2: on others. As a reminder, my home base is we

855
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:34,480
Speaker 2: Don't Die dot com. You can get a free copy

856
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:37,040
Speaker 2: of my book if you enter your name an email

857
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:40,480
Speaker 2: address on the bottom of that front page. I'm so

858
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 2: grateful you've been with us today. It only takes a

859
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:49,440
Speaker 2: small percentage to make a giant difference. I'm Sander Champlain.

860
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:53,480
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Shades of the Afterlife on

861
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:58,800
Speaker 2: the iHeartRadio and Cost to cost am Hairinormal Podcast Network.

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Speaker 1: And if you like this episode of Shades of the Afterlife,

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Speaker 1: wait until you hear the next one. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast am Paranormal

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Speaker 1: Podcast Network.