1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:04,880 Speaker 1: High Bechtel Cast listeners. This is Gen and this is Caitlin, 2 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: So we just wanted to do a quick explainer at 3 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:10,719 Speaker 1: the top of this episode. We're doing something a little 4 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: different this time. UM. We're covering Tangerine, a movie that 5 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:17,599 Speaker 1: you know us. We have a lot of blind spots 6 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 1: going into analyzing this movie, so we wanted to get 7 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 1: a number of perspectives on it. UM, so you will 8 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: hear not one, but three different guests today. Kai choice 9 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: is with us for the majority of the episode, but 10 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: we also have UM analyzes and input from two other 11 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:40,880 Speaker 1: incredible guests, Dhalia Bell and Violet Gray. So look forward 12 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: to that. And I guess it's also worth stating that 13 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: we talked with Um Dahlia and with Violet after the 14 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 1: recording of this original episode. Yes, so UM enjoy the episode. 15 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: On the Doe Cast, the questions asked if movies have 16 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: women and um are all they're just gassions, just boyfriends 17 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: and husbands, or do they have individualism the patriarchy zef 18 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: in best start changing it with the Beckdel Cast. Hello 19 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: and welcome to the Bechtel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante. 20 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: My name is Jamie loftus. It's us. This is our podcast. 21 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 1: This is our feminist movie podcast, where we lead our 22 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: discussion and our analysis using the Bechtel test, which is 23 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 1: a media test made by queer writer Alison Bechtel, sometimes 24 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 1: called the Bechtel Wallace test. But Caitlin, it's been a 25 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 1: couple of weeks. What is the Bechdel test? Simply don't 26 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:41,400 Speaker 1: remember she is? I'll see if I can remember. Um. Now, 27 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: historically we have and many people have used a version 28 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: of the Bechtel test. That it's funny to use the 29 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: word historically in as it pertains to us a show 30 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:57,919 Speaker 1: that's been on for four years historically though, No, historically, 31 00:01:58,120 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: I see where're going, I see whe're going this than 32 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: you so much. But like with us, and then also 33 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: on a larger scale, many people use the Becktel tests 34 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: in terms of do two women speak to each other? 35 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 1: That's what we've always said. Now, in in our ongoing 36 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: effort to be more inclusive, we are adjusting the way 37 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 1: we see the Bechtel test, and rather than two women 38 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:26,239 Speaker 1: or two female identifying characters speaking to each other about 39 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 1: something other than a man, the version of the test 40 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: that we are going to use moving forward is two 41 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 1: people of any marginalized gender. So that includes women, that 42 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: includes non binary people, that includes intersex people, that includes 43 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 1: trans men speak to each other about something other than 44 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:52,239 Speaker 1: a cyst man that says maya, because if there's anything 45 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 1: we don't need more of in cinema, says its men. Right, 46 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: So that is our back tests moving forward. Uh, shall 47 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 1: we try to make it pass? Okay? Yes, okay, this 48 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 1: is a special dystopian edition of Betel Test. Ready, Uh, 49 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:16,640 Speaker 1: let's run it, hey, Caitlin, Yes, Jamie, I don't know why, 50 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: but the National Guard just flew a drone over my house. 51 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: Just something terrifying to think about. Um, then we're talking 52 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: about a drone that's an example of the mental test 53 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: being passed. Yeah, that is scary. We live in a 54 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 1: police state and um fuck the police. Defund the police. Yes, 55 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: if you, if you, if you're pro cop log out, yeah, 56 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: go do some reading. Anyways. Um, yes, I'm very excited 57 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: for the movie that we're covering today. This has been 58 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: a long time coming. We've been talking about covering this 59 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: movie for a long time. Um, but I'm glad we're 60 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: doing that. We'recovering Tangerine, Yes, we are, and we have 61 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: a guest with us as always a special guest. He 62 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 1: is a comedian podcaster host of Women Who Kill podcast 63 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: It's Kai Choice. How's it going? It is? It's it's going, 64 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 1: it is, it is going. That feels like, yeah, it 65 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:18,919 Speaker 1: feels like the right. But was that a real That 66 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: was a real drone? That wasn't a bit that actually 67 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 1: happened to you know. I was on the phone with 68 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 1: Caitlin before you jumped on the zoom call and it 69 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 1: was like it became really loud all of a sudden, 70 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:29,719 Speaker 1: and I looked out the window and there was just 71 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: a gigantic, like low flying drone just going over my 72 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: neighborhood that I need to do some googling about. I 73 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 1: was like, I thought, are they still here? Like I don't, 74 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 1: I don't know, but it was very close and very 75 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,719 Speaker 1: I've never seen one in real life me either. Yeah, 76 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: shaken to my core. I mean, hopefully by the time 77 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: this episode airs, I will know more, but given who knows, Yeah, 78 00:04:56,400 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: you'll be fine. Keep us posted, Yeah, I will. Were 79 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 1: excited terrifying drones aside. We're happy we're here. Yes, like 80 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:11,479 Speaker 1: we said, we're so excited to cover Tangerine Kai. What 81 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: is your relationship with this film. I love this movie. 82 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 1: I saw this movie for the first time a couple 83 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:21,159 Speaker 1: of years ago, and the only thing that made me 84 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:24,799 Speaker 1: want to watch it was, well, the plot sounds crazy, 85 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 1: but also I heard they shot it on an iPhone, 86 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 1: and I was like, I need to see how terrible 87 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 1: this is. And it wasn't. It's great. No, It's like 88 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: I I think that if I didn't know that this 89 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: movie was shot on an iPhone going into my first viewing, 90 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: I wouldn't have guessed it. I would I would have 91 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 1: been like, oh, it looks like a d I Y movie, 92 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: But I never would have guessed it was shot on 93 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: an iPhone. Yeah, I would have thought they just they 94 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: did something weird to stylize it. I'm like, no, that's 95 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: that's just how it looks when and that's what you use. 96 00:05:56,600 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: But it worked. Also, two white guys to guys produced it. Yes, 97 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 1: that impressed me. We'll talk all about that. But the 98 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: director of this movie is a white man named Sean Baker, 99 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: and then he co wrote it with Chris Berg Go Brogock. Well, 100 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 1: we'll talk about that though, because I think that I 101 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:19,600 Speaker 1: think that the writing credits of this movie are a 102 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:24,719 Speaker 1: little are are a little bit belonged to other people? Yes, yes, 103 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:31,280 Speaker 1: impro well yeah, and we'll we'll cover this more when 104 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:34,479 Speaker 1: we get into this discussion. But the central conflict of 105 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 1: this movie, the whole plot, is something that the one 106 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 1: lead actor, in particular Katana Kiki Rodriguez, who plays Cindy, 107 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 1: actually a few things that happened in the movie a 108 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 1: few pretty major plot points or like again the whole 109 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 1: story are like experience. Yeah, yeah, things that either happened 110 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: to her or friends of like happened to friends of 111 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 1: hers that she just kind of like relay the information 112 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 1: to these white sis male screenwriters. And I mean there's 113 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,039 Speaker 1: there's definitely, like I said, there's a whole discussion to 114 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: be had. But okay, yeah, the production of this movie 115 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: I didn't know anything about other than the iPhone aspect. 116 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 1: I didn't know much about the production of this movie. 117 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: And there's there there were a lot of twists and 118 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: turns for sure in production. There's a there's a do 119 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 1: plass brother that gets involved. You're just like whoa, whoa, whoa. 120 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 1: There's well, Jamie, what's your relationship in history with it? 121 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 1: I have seen this movie before. I really really enjoyed 122 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 1: it UM the first time I watched it, just because 123 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: I think it had come to streaming recently and I 124 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 1: just wanted to see it because it means like, it's 125 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: the iPhone movie and it's great, and I was like, okay, UM, 126 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 1: and I really really enjoyed it the first time I 127 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 1: watched it. UM. I wasn't at the time, I wasn't 128 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: watching it critically, but I was excited to revisit it 129 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: for UM for the show. And I guess what, I 130 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 1: still love it. It's a really fun movie. Same what 131 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 1: about you, Caitlin. Yeah, I saw it it came out. UM. 132 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: I probably didn't watch it for the first time until 133 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: a couple of years later. I think I saw in 134 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: SEV the first time, and I had heard similar things 135 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 1: like they shut the whole thing on an iPhone, isn't 136 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: that marvelous? But I'm almost kind of like, who cares 137 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 1: about that? Like it's such a monumental film for so 138 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 1: many other reasons, Um, And it's so fun. It's so funny. 139 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 1: It's I mean a romp, you know me. I love 140 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: a good romp. UM. But it's Yeah, I loved it. 141 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 1: I watched it. I've seen it a few times now. 142 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 1: Over the years, and um, big fan. But I think 143 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 1: it's kind of selfishly. It's fun because it takes place 144 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 1: near where we all live. Oh I know where? Oh cool? 145 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:40,439 Speaker 1: I think I know every driven past, don't a time before. 146 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 1: But also there there are parts where you're like, you 147 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: didn't walk there, you didn't walk from there, There's no way. 148 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: I was like, I'm cutting two hours later. Cool, So 149 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 1: should we jump in? Yeah, let's do the recap. So 150 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 1: it's Christmas Eve, It's a Christmas in Los Angeles. It's 151 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 1: a Christmas movie, right, it is? Oh, this is good. 152 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 1: That should be added to the like official holiday movie masterless. Sure. 153 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: And one of many reasons I like this movie is 154 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 1: that it's a movie that takes place around Christmas time, 155 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:20,719 Speaker 1: that treats Christmas like it's just any other day. It 156 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 1: kind of sometimes like lighting. I feel like that the 157 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:26,439 Speaker 1: main plot of it being Christmas is like some fun 158 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 1: holiday lighting and something you're like, but for the most part, 159 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: everyone's just like, I don't really give a funk that 160 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: it's Christmas. And I'm like, that's how I feel. As 161 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 1: the resident um Scrooge mcgrinch of the group, Um, did 162 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 1: you just yes? That is what I said, and I'm 163 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: so sorry, everybody innovating, innovating all over life. Thank You's 164 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 1: actually the name of my new screenplay, Um Scrooge mcgrinch, 165 00:09:55,960 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 1: The the Anti Christmas Story, The Anti christ Mass Story. Yes, 166 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: it starts. Who does it start? Who does it start? Oh? Um? 167 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Honestly, if Alfred Molina is not in 168 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 1: this movie, I'll pitch a fit. So you belong to 169 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: somewhere in this universe. I'm assuming it's an expanded universe. 170 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:22,679 Speaker 1: There's a lot, you know, grant I need. I need 171 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 1: at least four movies the un fact. You'll get them. 172 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 1: I'm working on it. Um okay. Anyway, So it's It's 173 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 1: Christmas Eve in Los Angeles? Ever heard of it? And 174 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: we meet West Hollywood, specifically in West Hollywood. Yeah, we 175 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 1: meet Cindy played by Katana Kikei Rodriguez. And you got 176 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 1: to spell it. Yes, it's not the like c I 177 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:52,719 Speaker 1: N d y spelling that you might be conte. It's 178 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:58,319 Speaker 1: s I N d E last name, last name Rella. 179 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: So Cindy Rella, yes, or is our protagonist's name? You 180 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 1: don't call a protagonist. I can do that, though I'm 181 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: not sure I will. Um and then, um, she is 182 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: with Alexandra played by Maya Taylor, and they are best 183 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 1: friends and they are both trans sex workers. In their conversation, 184 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:29,080 Speaker 1: Alexander lets it slip that Cindy's boyfriend and pimp Chester 185 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:33,679 Speaker 1: has been cheating on her with a white CIS woman 186 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: whose name they're not totally sure of, but they think 187 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 1: it begins with the D And this was happening while 188 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 1: Cindy was gone for the past few weeks, and we 189 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: found out later that she was in jail for possession 190 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:48,079 Speaker 1: of drugs that she was holding for Chester. She was 191 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: in jail for twenty eight days, right, Okay, yeah, this 192 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: is actually the sequel to twenty eight days later. By 193 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: the way, r I p donut time. I know it 194 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 1: was a simpler time. It was a donut your time. 195 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 1: There was a donut your time. Wow, you're not wrong. 196 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 1: Um okay. So Cindy sets off to find this lady 197 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: the Fish the Fish, and Alexandra reluctantly agrees to help her, 198 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 1: and she's also handing out flyers for a show that 199 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 1: Alexandra has later that night at Hamburger Mary's at seven pm. Yes, 200 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 1: this is where the walking comes in. You're just like 201 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 1: how do we get here so quickly? Right? Meanwhile, we 202 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 1: meet Razmic Rasmic, a cab driver, and we see him 203 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: driving some people around hill. Is this before? Is this before? 204 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 1: Is this bu? Is this before? Uber? Or Uber was 205 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 1: definitely a thing at this point, it was just kind 206 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:59,560 Speaker 1: of new. Maybe wasn't a gigantic threat to the cabin 207 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:05,319 Speaker 1: district yet. I don't know, because he seemed busy, right, 208 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 1: he was always driving, and it was like, yeah, I 209 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 1: guess it would have been cab times. I also, I 210 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 1: mean this movie was like shot Wait, let me get 211 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 1: the exact dates of when this was shot, because it 212 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 1: might have been shot like at an even more cab time. 213 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:23,199 Speaker 1: Let me see. Okay, it was filmed at the end 214 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 1: of So I feel like that is pretty firmly like 215 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: before uber really really caught on, right, it was still 216 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 1: it was already definitely a thing. But yeah, I don't 217 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 1: know if like the widespread adoption of like Uber and 218 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: lift was it wasn't super popular. But um, Kyle, you 219 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: said be you, and that provides an opportunity for me 220 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:50,559 Speaker 1: to bring up something that I hated to college. Um no, 221 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 1: that's b why you I went to bust you. Yeah, 222 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: and I did get a master's degree in screenwriting. There, Um, 223 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 1: thank you so much. You're welcome. I did that on purpose. 224 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 1: I hate to bring it up, but you left me 225 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 1: no choice. Um. Okay, So we meet this cab driver 226 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 1: and then we cut back to Cindy. She asks Nash 227 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:14,839 Speaker 1: played by Ian Edwards, who um as a comic an 228 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 1: actor of course, but super funny. Yeah. She asks Nash 229 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: if he has seen Chester and he tells her to 230 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: go to a food line where she might be able 231 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 1: to get some more information from people. That leads her 232 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 1: to Bob, who tells her to go to a particular motel. Meanwhile, 233 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: Alexandra starts working. A guy picks her up. They get 234 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: into a fight because he won't pay her. Yeah, he 235 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 1: completely short changes her. Um from the jump, and then 236 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 1: the situation escalates because cops get involved. And because this 237 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 1: is fiction, the cops are hell of cool. Yeah, the 238 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 1: cops don't. They still suck, but they're like, it's Christmas 239 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: right right, Like I'm going to let this one slide. 240 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: And you're just like, okay, really would you do that? 241 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 1: I don't think So it's still fucked up. So then 242 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 1: we see we're back to Rasmick driving around cruising. He's 243 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: looking for a sex worker to pick up, and we 244 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 1: learned that he is pretty much only interested in trans women. Uh. 245 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: And then he and Alexander cross paths because he is 246 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: a regular client of hers. Then Cindy finally finds the 247 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 1: woman she's looking for. Her name is Nina, pulls her 248 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: out of this party room at this motel and starts 249 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 1: dragging her part. Excellent, that's such a nice that's a 250 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: nice way of putting it. I know that motel by 251 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: the way, Wait, where is it Hollywood? And okay, oh yeah, 252 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: I used to drive past there all the time going 253 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: to Nerd Melt. I used to work at it. The 254 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: only real job I ever had was a nonprofit that 255 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 1: provided services to a lot of sex workers. And everyone 256 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 1: knew that that motel is like legit, that's all that 257 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 1: motel does is they rent by the hour two sex workers. 258 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: And it was it was nice to see that, you know, 259 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: they're still doing business, they're still doing really well. Got 260 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 1: some some full frontal male nudity. We see at least 261 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 1: one dick. Yeah, it's a it's a scared dick. It's 262 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: a dick against the wall. And you're like, yeah, she 263 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 1: finds Dinah. She finds Dinah and pulls her out, like 264 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: drags her out by her hair and starts dragging her 265 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: across town towards donut time, where she finds out that 266 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: Chester is But then she realizes it's a little past 267 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 1: seven pm and that she's missing Alexandra's show. So Cindy 268 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 1: drags Dina to Hamburger Mary's to get on a buss. 269 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: You never see That's like one small representation thing that 270 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:05,199 Speaker 1: I always really appreciate it, but you never see like 271 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: protagonists use public transit like it's and when you actually 272 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 1: see it, you're like people people of course like there, 273 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 1: but yeah, they they hang out on a real life 274 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: l a city bus. What a dream and everyone has 275 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 1: seen that. You know, if you've ever like taken a 276 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 1: bus for more than a couple of days at a time, 277 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:27,920 Speaker 1: you've you've seen a situation like that, You're like, I'm 278 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 1: gonna pretend this isn't happening right now, this is none 279 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: of my business. Someone is probably in danger, but this 280 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:39,919 Speaker 1: is a low key hostage situation. There, it's a hostage drump. 281 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,160 Speaker 1: Everyone minded their own business. It was nice, we all 282 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:47,880 Speaker 1: got to where we were going. Um so Meanwhile, we 283 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 1: see razmake at home and realize that he is married. 284 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: He and his wife has a small child. His mother 285 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:58,880 Speaker 1: in law lives with them, so we realized basically he's 286 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 1: kind of living this double life. There are Armenian yes, there, 287 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: Armenian there. I mean, it is like there are so 288 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 1: many elements of this movie that make it like an 289 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: awesome l A movie because it's so many like underrepresented 290 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,120 Speaker 1: communities in l A specifically are in the end, it's 291 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 1: it's like seeing an Armenian immigrant family and seeing them 292 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:23,359 Speaker 1: like actually characterized and not just like in passing is 293 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 1: for the amount of movies that take place in l A. 294 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: It's like a super rarity is cool totally um. So, 295 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: he also heads toward Alexandra's show at Hamburger Mary's. Then 296 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:38,879 Speaker 1: we see her singing at the show, and then we 297 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: also see Cindy and Dinah's interactions being a little less 298 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: antagonistic than they were a little bit. I wanted to 299 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 1: see Dina continue to be beaten because the only two 300 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 1: white people in this movie are the kind of white 301 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 1: people who use the N word because they think it's cool, 302 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 1: and so anytime something bad was about to happen to them. 303 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 1: I'm like, yes, bring it more and Chester and Chester. Yeah, 304 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 1: it's it is wild because there is such a huge 305 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 1: build in the movie to you meeting Chester, and then 306 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: when you meet Chester, you're like what you expect? You're 307 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 1: just like, this is who we were. So this guy, 308 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 1: all right, maybe he has a great personality. And then 309 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:30,199 Speaker 1: he doesn't know, doesn't this is who everyone was fighting for, 310 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 1: right Literally Chester has no idea how good he has it? Right? Yeah, 311 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,879 Speaker 1: their their interactions become a little less antagonistic. They smoke. 312 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:45,120 Speaker 1: Was that is that crap? Me? Okay? Yeah, I don't 313 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 1: know drugs? Embarrassing? How do you live in l A 314 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:54,120 Speaker 1: and you don't know meth? I don't know. I'm a square. 315 00:19:54,400 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 1: It's a cultural staple. It's basically the main thing l 316 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,919 Speaker 1: A Is known for. So that happens, and then Cindy 317 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: also fixes Dina's smudgy makeup, so it's like maybe they're 318 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: starting to be sort of friendly toward each other. The 319 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 1: makeup that she fucked up because she beat her until 320 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:18,879 Speaker 1: she cried it off. Correct. It's very sweet, it is. 321 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: It is like that. It ends up being a very 322 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: tender moment where I love the pacing of this movie too, 323 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,159 Speaker 1: where it's just like things are like happening, happening, happening. 324 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 1: It's a rob We're going from place to place very quickly, 325 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:31,879 Speaker 1: and then every once in a while you get like 326 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,399 Speaker 1: to really hang somewhere. And it's not always with the 327 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,640 Speaker 1: characters that you expect, like I wasn't expecting a longer 328 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 1: scene with Cindy and like five minutes in the bathroom, right, 329 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:45,159 Speaker 1: but but it just feels right, and it gives you 330 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 1: a chance to catch your breath and see these characters together. 331 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:51,359 Speaker 1: You're just like, damn, it's a good movie. M So 332 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 1: then they head back towards don't time to link up 333 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:59,159 Speaker 1: with Chester. We can talk about how terrible the show was. 334 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:04,439 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's not fair of me to gloss over that. Yes, um, 335 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 1: no one shows up really to Alexander's show, which as comedians, um, 336 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: we understand. We get it, especially around like the holidays 337 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: in l A. And if you're like still doing shows, 338 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 1: you're just like there's four lonely people and they're so 339 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 1: into it, and then other than that there's no one 340 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: and you're just like, uh, you know what I wish 341 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:30,679 Speaker 1: they had done? I wish that in the middle of 342 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 1: her song they had turned on a blender. You're someone 343 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: started shaking a drink really hard every time every time 344 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 1: someone orders a fucking daker. Who's ordering a dabt? Who 345 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 1: and whoever it is then is like heckling from the back. 346 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:52,920 Speaker 1: You're just like god, right, And then we find out 347 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 1: that she had to basically like pay to get stage time. 348 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 1: We've all I definitely have paid five dollars to participate 349 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:08,120 Speaker 1: in an open mic before. But it's an audition, right, 350 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:15,440 Speaker 1: it's valuable. You're being charged in experience there. I thought 351 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 1: Alexandra's performance was lovely. I was, it was really sweet 352 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: and really nice, and I was just I don't know. Yeah, 353 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: it's just like a holiday time show field where you're 354 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 1: just like, be so nice if there were people here. Okay. 355 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 1: So then so they're heading back towards donut time. Meanwhile, 356 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:39,639 Speaker 1: Resume is trying to find Cindy and Alexandra, but he 357 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 1: missed them at Hamburger Mary's, so he asks their friends 358 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: where they might be, and then he also heads towards 359 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,399 Speaker 1: don't at time. But he lied to his family. He 360 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 1: lied to his family and his son. His mother in 361 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,919 Speaker 1: law is suspicious, so she gets in another cab and 362 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: hunts him down. So then Cindy, Alexandra, and Dinah arrive 363 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 1: at doughnut time and Cindy confronts Chester, who we meet 364 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: on screen for the first time, about cheating on her 365 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 1: with Dinah. Chester is all like, no, Cindy, I love you, 366 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 1: you or my fiance And then everyone's like, wait a minute, 367 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:25,160 Speaker 1: what you're engaged? Dinah is heckling the whole time, y yep, 368 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 1: and then Chester eventually admits to having sex with Dinah 369 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 1: and just then um Rasmiek shows up because he wants 370 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,400 Speaker 1: to spend time with Cindy, but right then his mother 371 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 1: in law also shows up and she realizes what Resmuk 372 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 1: has been getting into this whole time. So there's a 373 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 1: lot of yelling, and then she calls her daughter, Resuk's 374 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 1: wife and she shows up, and then there's more yelling. 375 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 1: Woman who owns the donut shop, like why does this 376 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 1: keep happening? She keeps she keeps threatening to call the 377 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 1: cops um, which again would have in real life resulted 378 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: in everyone dying. But yes, thankfully the cops never show up. 379 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 1: That's real. I was like, classic cops. Yeah, it's an emergency, Okay, 380 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:15,680 Speaker 1: we'll be there in six hours. But anyway, so Rasmus 381 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: wife is just like, well, you know, sometimes a wife 382 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 1: has to look the other way because he is the 383 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:27,120 Speaker 1: sole breadwinner. Yeah, exactly. She's like, why did you call 384 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: me down here? I know, trying to pretend this isn't happy. 385 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 1: Now you have to embarrass everybody, right, But anyway, so 386 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 1: it seems like everything's going to be okay after all 387 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 1: this chaos has just erupted. But then Chester is like, 388 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,400 Speaker 1: wait a minute, Alexandra is the one who told you 389 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: that I was cheating Cindy. Well did she mention that 390 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,640 Speaker 1: she and I had sex? And then Cindy is devastated 391 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,400 Speaker 1: that her best friend would betray her like that, so 392 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 1: she storms off. Alexandra is trying to reconcile, but she's 393 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: not having any of it. And then she's tried to 394 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:03,440 Speaker 1: go to work. Uh, some awful bastards throw a cup 395 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: of urine on Cindy, and then Alexander runs over and 396 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:10,640 Speaker 1: helps her get cleaned up. They go to a laundromat 397 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,680 Speaker 1: and she knows she washes her off, and then she 398 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 1: gives Cindy her hair and then they make up and 399 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 1: that's the end of their night, and the end of 400 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 1: the movie. Why is Chester the what? Why can can 401 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,200 Speaker 1: no one do better than Chester? I don't understand, Yes, 402 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 1: zero redeemable quality because you see these women like knowing 403 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 1: their worth a lot, Like throughout the whole movie they're like, no, 404 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: like you have to give me more money, Like I'm 405 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 1: not doing that. Like there's a lot of them knowing 406 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 1: their word. Not to defend Chester, but and I'm not 407 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,880 Speaker 1: defending Chester, but there's a lot of strong women who 408 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 1: know they're worth who are inevitably like kind of inexplicably 409 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: with a Chester drawn to forty year old who still 410 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,400 Speaker 1: have skateboards, right, And you're just like, okay, so this 411 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 1: is just this is there's something that you know, like 412 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,440 Speaker 1: Cindy hasn't unpacked where she's you know, everyone has a 413 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 1: I have a certain kind of shitty guy that I'm 414 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 1: to have a chance. It's not the Chester type, but 415 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 1: I have my Chesters. You know, I've had my share 416 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 1: of Chesters. Sure Gus hasn't had a Chester too. Yeah, Well, 417 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,880 Speaker 1: let's take a quick break and then we'll come right 418 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 1: back to discuss the film. And we're back. So where begin. 419 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,440 Speaker 1: There's there's so much, so many wonderful things to talk about. 420 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: Does it make sense to get into some of the 421 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: context in terms of like the production and development of 422 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 1: this movie. Sure thing first, yeah, so, so I think 423 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,719 Speaker 1: that the surprising thing for me because again, when I 424 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 1: was watching this movie the first time, I'm I didn't 425 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: do research on the director. I was just watching it 426 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 1: to enjoy it. But the director and one of the 427 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 1: two credited writers on this movie is a director, Sean Baker, 428 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,480 Speaker 1: who is like a white guy who went to n 429 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: y U. Which I don't know what I was expecting, 430 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 1: but I wasn't expecting a white guy who went to 431 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 1: n y U. And so I think that that is like, 432 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 1: that's worth discussing here because I think that this movie 433 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 1: is um is and is considered a step forward in 434 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:41,879 Speaker 1: trans representation in like bigger, like critically acclaimed films, let's say, 435 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,879 Speaker 1: and then behind it you have this movie wouldn't have 436 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 1: been made if Mark Duplas hadn't gotten involved and if 437 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:54,399 Speaker 1: this guy, Sean Baker hadn't directed it. So he made 438 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,440 Speaker 1: movies before. I think this was his first like big, 439 00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,679 Speaker 1: really popular movie, and then he went on to he 440 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 1: also made The Florida Project, but same same writing team, 441 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:09,120 Speaker 1: same director, and same font on the poster even say 442 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: I think so, I mean, it's it's nothing. I mean, 443 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: I don't know of anything negative about Sean Baker, but 444 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:20,400 Speaker 1: I do think that that is something that has come 445 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 1: up on our show before. Where um, sometimes in movies 446 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 1: that are like pushing forward in some ways, you still 447 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: have a lot of the old guard, let's say, behind 448 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: the camera, which kind of which sucks. Like you, I mean, ideally, 449 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: there should be more black directors being able to direct 450 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 1: black stories and trans directors being able to direct trans 451 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 1: stories and not need, you know, have the perceived need 452 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 1: for a white guy who went to n Y you 453 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: really involved at all. In this case, a beautiful movie 454 00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: was was turned out by it. But that kind of 455 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 1: it into what we were talking about a bit at 456 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: the top of the show, which is the writing process. 457 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,719 Speaker 1: And once you find out that like a do Plas 458 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 1: brother is involved, the writing style kind of all comes together. 459 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 1: You're like, okay, so yeah, You're like, okay, so this 460 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 1: movie isn't necessary like it's written and it's not written 461 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: because that's a very like do Plas brothers. They're the 462 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: they're the mumble core kings whatever, and it seems like 463 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: this movie had a very similar approach to writing. So 464 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 1: my understanding, based on just the production history and on 465 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 1: interviews I read at the time that the movie was 466 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 1: coming out, was that Sean Baker did not wasn't ingratiated 467 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 1: in the communities he's portraying in these movies. He is. 468 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 1: He was just kind of a guy who made movies 469 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 1: and was looking for stories to tell and lived in 470 00:29:55,680 --> 00:30:00,480 Speaker 1: West Hollywood and so was aware of the sex worker community. 471 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 1: He was aware of the trans community, but he you know, 472 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: obviously he didn't have any experience there himself. And so 473 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 1: he started to um talk with the two women who 474 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: eventually started this movie, uh, Katana Kiki Rodriguez and Maya Taylor, 475 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 1: and through Caitlin you were saying this earlier, but through 476 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 1: talking with them, getting to know them, uh, spending time 477 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 1: with them, sort of discovered the story that seemed right 478 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 1: to tell through talking with them, and like you were saying, 479 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 1: a lot of the major plot points in this movie 480 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 1: are based on the experiences that either they or their 481 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: friends had had. Because they are both former sex workers, 482 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 1: they are both trans women, they like very much lived 483 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 1: this experience their characters are depicting in the movie, which 484 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 1: On one hand, it's amazing that you have trans characters 485 00:30:54,520 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: played by trans actors, which is unfortunately historically in Hollywood 486 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: pretty rare. Red Maine, I feel like he still hasn't 487 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 1: had to answer for that. Oh for the Danish girl. 488 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 1: Um and the fact that, yeah, I mean they are 489 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: black trans women. They have this experience of being former 490 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 1: sex workers. It's there kind of real life story that's 491 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 1: being told through this movie. That again was as far 492 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 1: as the credited writers go, is these two sis white men. Yeah, 493 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 1: it's a really long way of getting to the fact 494 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: that Keiki and Maya should based on everything I've read 495 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 1: and seen about this movie, they should be credited as 496 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 1: writers of this movie just as much, if not more so, 497 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 1: than Sean Baker and Chris berg BERGA sure how to 498 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 1: say it? Question mark? Who's this? Chris guy? Who is? 499 00:31:54,880 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: There's no Wikipedia? But this is also in addition to, 500 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 1: like again, major plot points being lifted from their lived experiences. UM. 501 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 1: I also read that a lot of the dialogue that 502 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 1: was written into the script got basically altered, improvised, adapted 503 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 1: to be more authentic, to be more authentic, right, So 504 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 1: it was the actors sort of rewriting the dialogue, I 505 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 1: could tell that Chester's lines were written by a straitcist, 506 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 1: like that that was written on a fucking MacBook Pro. 507 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 1: Those lines right there. Final, Yeah, it's true, And I 508 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 1: feel like, yeah, when you when you know that going 509 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 1: into watching the movie, the viewing experience is it's still 510 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 1: a wonderful movie, but it's a little different because you 511 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 1: can hear those written scenes in there, like under this 512 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 1: like very authentic, like natural feeling dialogue from Kiki and Maya. 513 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 1: And I was also saying reading and hearing in the 514 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 1: interviews that they gave around this, the Kiki and Maya 515 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 1: were also really instrumental in like constantly reminding Sean Baker 516 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 1: and pushing to make the movie funny and to make 517 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 1: it a romp. And they're so funny. They're so naturally funny. Yeah. Sure, 518 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 1: Like their line readings were ridiculous. It's hilarious, so perfect, 519 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: and it seems like and I think that a tendency 520 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 1: a lot for white filmmakers telling non white stories is 521 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 1: to just it's depressing and it's like framed as tragedy, 522 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 1: and even though there are sad things that happen inside 523 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 1: of this movie, it doesn't feel like a weighed down, 524 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:45,360 Speaker 1: tragic story, and that sounds based on all the interviews, 525 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 1: it sounds like that is directly due to Kiki and 526 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: Maya pushing for that. So there, I cannot find a 527 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 1: reason other than Hollywood being an asshole that they're not 528 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 1: credited as writers right on this movie. So to speak 529 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 1: to that a little more. Um. This is a quote 530 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 1: from an article in The Guardian where it says quote 531 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 1: the filmmaker admitted that his approach would have been more 532 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 1: downbeat and dramatic had Rodriguez not put her foot down. Um, 533 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,239 Speaker 1: looking back, he realized how right she was. She was 534 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 1: asking for something that would present these characters to mainstream 535 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 1: audiences in a pop culture way so that they could 536 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:32,719 Speaker 1: identify with them. End quote. So then pay her for that. 537 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:36,840 Speaker 1: Like it's just it's so annoying when people pull this 538 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,240 Speaker 1: ship and continue to pull this ship because m yeah, 539 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 1: I mean it seems like they wrote more of the 540 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 1: story than he did. I know, He's like, eventually I 541 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:49,800 Speaker 1: realized that, you know, she was kind of right about 542 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 1: like how the story that she basically created should be told, 543 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 1: you know, like she had she had good instincts, I guess. 544 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:00,479 Speaker 1: And He's like yeah, I'll put my name on that. Sure. 545 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 1: It's just like Jesus Christ there, and it's so many 546 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:11,319 Speaker 1: things at once because I just like it's frustrating because 547 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,720 Speaker 1: it's like, I'm not trying to suggest that Sean Baker 548 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 1: is a bad person, and I think that he made 549 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 1: a lovely movie, but it just doesn't seem like Kiki 550 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 1: and Maya are adequately credited for the amount of influence 551 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:29,320 Speaker 1: and work that they did and had over this movie 552 00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:33,479 Speaker 1: that the actors made it totally. And yeah, especially because 553 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 1: like a writing credit would have meant that they got 554 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 1: more money, they would have been paid more and and 555 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 1: things like that, they could have been nominated for writing 556 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:45,319 Speaker 1: awards like there. And another thing that this movie I 557 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:50,239 Speaker 1: think was like considered as like a milestone that Tangerine 558 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,919 Speaker 1: pushed forward was some of the first Um, the oscars suck, 559 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,239 Speaker 1: so of course they slept on it, but um, some 560 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:01,320 Speaker 1: of the first like acting nominations for trans women were 561 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,399 Speaker 1: because of this movie. Yeah. Yeah, so I mean there 562 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 1: there is a lot of if not first, um, some 563 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 1: of the best in recent memory progress for for representation. 564 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 1: But it's still just the fact that at the end 565 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 1: of the day, it is credited basically exclusively to white 566 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:25,319 Speaker 1: guys behind the camera is disappointing and frustrating, and it's 567 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,960 Speaker 1: like I wish I could say I were surprised. Um, 568 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 1: I'm wondering how much anyone got paid on this though, 569 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:37,360 Speaker 1: because it was the Boy. They shot it on three 570 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:42,719 Speaker 1: five s right, and they edited it and I think, 571 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:47,319 Speaker 1: just like I movie, probably no, it was it was 572 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:49,560 Speaker 1: super I mean, it seems like they used equipment that 573 00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 1: they already had to make it. But even that aside, 574 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:56,400 Speaker 1: it's like they still have a whole crew they have. 575 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:58,799 Speaker 1: There's a lot of performers in this movie, and you 576 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 1: have to imagine they're not making a ton of money 577 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:07,040 Speaker 1: to do it. And it's like Mark Duplas, you have money, 578 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:12,240 Speaker 1: come on, Mark, sir. In any case. Yeah, Well, something 579 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:16,640 Speaker 1: that has been coming up for us a lot is 580 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 1: we want to encourage people from all backgrounds to be 581 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:27,400 Speaker 1: inclusive in the writing. And we've been saying again this 582 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,799 Speaker 1: more often more recently. But you know, we we're not 583 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:37,960 Speaker 1: saying that a white ciss man couldn't make a great 584 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 1: movie about black trans sex workers. Because we saw that 585 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,360 Speaker 1: they did that did happen? And um, I have a 586 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 1: quote here from another article entitled What Tangerine taught Hollywood 587 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:55,560 Speaker 1: about how to tell trans stories. From the publication them 588 00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:59,239 Speaker 1: quote to craft a story about a world with which 589 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,360 Speaker 1: they had little experienced, director Sean Baker and his writing 590 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 1: partner Chris Berg um new when to ask for help 591 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:15,759 Speaker 1: right away. The humility demonstrated by Baker and Berg in 592 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,040 Speaker 1: copying to a lack of knowledge about their intended subject 593 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,239 Speaker 1: upfront is essential for any syst filmmaker who wants to 594 00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:27,000 Speaker 1: incorporate trans themes or characters into their work. All and 595 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,200 Speaker 1: the quote there, and we'll post this article because I 596 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 1: think the whole thing is worth reading. But um, that's 597 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:34,440 Speaker 1: what we always say, like, do your homework. You can 598 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:38,640 Speaker 1: represent communities responsibly even if you do not belong to 599 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,680 Speaker 1: that community. It is going to be much harder for you, 600 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:45,120 Speaker 1: and it will take a lot more homework. Um. But 601 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,479 Speaker 1: I guess and I don't want to, but it must 602 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:49,360 Speaker 1: sound like I'm giving these guys too much credit. But 603 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,800 Speaker 1: the bottom line is, yeah, definitely that like these two actors, 604 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,640 Speaker 1: the lead actors in this movie should have been given 605 00:38:56,760 --> 00:39:00,760 Speaker 1: far more credit in what they contributed creatively to the movie, 606 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:03,880 Speaker 1: way more than they were. Yeah. I mean it's like 607 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,360 Speaker 1: if you're doing your homework, that is critical and important, 608 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 1: but you also need to like give credit where credited 609 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:14,239 Speaker 1: is due. And that's not just in interviews. It is 610 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:17,799 Speaker 1: also something that you do financially, and it's something you 611 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:22,239 Speaker 1: do by like using your own influence to continue to 612 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:26,720 Speaker 1: like provide a platform and provide Like it's just I 613 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,000 Speaker 1: Sean Baker is more on the right track than I 614 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:34,319 Speaker 1: think a lot of sins white guys are. But it's 615 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:38,640 Speaker 1: still the fact that I'm just like they should have 616 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,239 Speaker 1: been paid more, they should have been credited more, and 617 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:43,759 Speaker 1: because like this movie was nominated for a lot of 618 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,640 Speaker 1: behind the scenes stuff too, and and and they should 619 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,719 Speaker 1: have you know, gotten a cut of that as well. 620 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:56,799 Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, yeah, what have they done after this? Uh? 621 00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:01,799 Speaker 1: Not too much? And for intunately that this is um 622 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:06,560 Speaker 1: Kiki Rodriguez is only film credit, and Maya has been 623 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:10,120 Speaker 1: in a few other things but mostly short films. And 624 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:14,359 Speaker 1: then she's in a movie called Stage Mother that came 625 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,799 Speaker 1: out this year that has Jackie Weaver and Lucy Lou 626 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:21,840 Speaker 1: and Adrian Grenier. I don't so so she's she's she's working, 627 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:25,399 Speaker 1: but it but Kiki isn't as much And I feel like, 628 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,120 Speaker 1: that's something too. It's it's the fact that Sean Baker, 629 00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:31,279 Speaker 1: you know, gets to kind of use Tangerine as a 630 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:35,520 Speaker 1: springboard and go on to make The Florida Project, a 631 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:37,960 Speaker 1: movie that I mean, I haven't seen it. I know 632 00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:40,280 Speaker 1: it's well regarded, but a movie with a larger budget 633 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:43,560 Speaker 1: and a movie like he was able to leverage Tangerine 634 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,920 Speaker 1: into more opportunities for himself. But what about the women 635 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:51,200 Speaker 1: whose story he was literally telling with Tangerine, And did 636 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,520 Speaker 1: they get left behind in in an unfair way? And 637 00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:58,160 Speaker 1: and what meanwhile, this white guy gets to use their experience, 638 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:01,760 Speaker 1: however well told, as a springboard for his own career. 639 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:08,319 Speaker 1: Yuh um. This is a good time to cut to 640 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:11,800 Speaker 1: our next segment with another one of our special guests. 641 00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,280 Speaker 1: She is a stand up in improv comic, a dungeon master, 642 00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:21,600 Speaker 1: and sometimes freestyle rapper. It's Violet Gray. Hello, Hello, thank 643 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:25,200 Speaker 1: you so much for having me, Thank you for being here. 644 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:28,800 Speaker 1: So more or less, we just wanted to hear your thoughts, 645 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:33,160 Speaker 1: specifically on the representation of black trans women in the 646 00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:37,720 Speaker 1: movie Tangerine. Sure, so, I was just telling my partner 647 00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:41,480 Speaker 1: that my position on this has evolved quite a bit 648 00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:45,759 Speaker 1: because if you had asked me fifteen years ago what 649 00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:49,200 Speaker 1: I thought of the representation of black trans women in 650 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:54,680 Speaker 1: the movie Tangerine, I would have talked about this uncomfortable 651 00:41:54,719 --> 00:42:01,040 Speaker 1: consistency in portraying black women and black trans women as 652 00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:08,200 Speaker 1: like drug addicted prostitutes. But since then, in the last 653 00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:13,000 Speaker 1: fifteen years or so, I've really evolved on what it 654 00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:15,720 Speaker 1: means to be a sex worker and what it means 655 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:22,520 Speaker 1: to have addiction, and um, I would say, there's nothing wrong, 656 00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:27,200 Speaker 1: there's nothing shameful about being in the sex industry. And 657 00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:31,120 Speaker 1: one thing I did like is that I mean, there 658 00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:33,800 Speaker 1: was a scene where they're using drugs, they're smoking crack, 659 00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:38,240 Speaker 1: and it didn't happen until much later in the movie, 660 00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:42,759 Speaker 1: and I thought that was good because it established them 661 00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:47,799 Speaker 1: as humans. First, they're not drug addicts, they're humans who 662 00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:53,080 Speaker 1: do drugs um uh and and it took them out 663 00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:57,920 Speaker 1: of this archetype. I liked both the characters. I understood 664 00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:03,399 Speaker 1: that that in ironment is is some people's realities. I 665 00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:05,960 Speaker 1: was thankful that they were humanized the way they did. 666 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:09,799 Speaker 1: I saw a lot in the movie that reminded me 667 00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:14,840 Speaker 1: of myself. So there's a scene where she where Cindy 668 00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:19,959 Speaker 1: is in the subway train and she is looking out 669 00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,960 Speaker 1: of the window. I don't think a lot of people 670 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:27,400 Speaker 1: realize that if you're a trans person, that can be 671 00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:31,720 Speaker 1: a sort of defense mechanism, because you're pretty much locked 672 00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:35,799 Speaker 1: in a box with complete strangers for a while, and 673 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:38,520 Speaker 1: when you're looking out the window, they can't see your 674 00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:42,799 Speaker 1: face and they can't see your features. Yes, so I 675 00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:48,560 Speaker 1: guess that there's something to be said about how black 676 00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:52,840 Speaker 1: trans women are consistently portrayed. I do think there is 677 00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:58,720 Speaker 1: a conversation there, but I also think that hey, sex 678 00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:02,520 Speaker 1: workers and people who have substance of these issues are 679 00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:07,160 Speaker 1: humans too, absolutely, and I think ultimately this movie was 680 00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:12,440 Speaker 1: more about friendship and adversity than any of that. Definitely, 681 00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,760 Speaker 1: to speak to the um SO, I was just talking 682 00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:19,400 Speaker 1: about how just last night, at the time of this recording, 683 00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,960 Speaker 1: this documentary just came out on Netflix. But the doc 684 00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:27,680 Speaker 1: Disclosure that um Laverne Cox, among many other people, executive produced. 685 00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:31,800 Speaker 1: They touch on this specific thing in the documentary about 686 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:37,200 Speaker 1: how the representation of black trans women, especially in media, 687 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:42,600 Speaker 1: that they are depicted as sex workers pretty disproportionately, and 688 00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:47,240 Speaker 1: there is an acknowledgement that there are statistically many black 689 00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:51,439 Speaker 1: trans women sex workers. But as the documentary Disclosure points out, 690 00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:56,000 Speaker 1: there's usually a failure in movies and television to examine 691 00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:59,640 Speaker 1: why that might be, which is that the unemployment rate 692 00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:03,959 Speaker 1: for black trans women is very high because of discrimination, 693 00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:08,040 Speaker 1: and many black trans women have no choice but to 694 00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:10,600 Speaker 1: turn to sex work because no one will give them 695 00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:14,719 Speaker 1: a job. Absolutely, yeah, there's always a failure to acknowledge 696 00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:19,759 Speaker 1: any of the systemic reasons why black trans women might 697 00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,600 Speaker 1: be sex workers. And it's just like, well, that's just 698 00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:27,440 Speaker 1: what black trans women be, and right right, as if 699 00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,680 Speaker 1: when everyone was going to elementary school and one person 700 00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:32,960 Speaker 1: wanted to be a police officer and the other person 701 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:36,040 Speaker 1: wanted to be yea, yeah, no, no, no, little kid 702 00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:41,520 Speaker 1: is in it. And when people want to know about intersectionality, 703 00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:47,239 Speaker 1: black trans women are might go to example because it 704 00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:49,880 Speaker 1: is the intersection of being a person of color and 705 00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:55,680 Speaker 1: being transgender as an example. But yes, I do think 706 00:45:55,920 --> 00:46:01,000 Speaker 1: that a lot of people, especially people who push this 707 00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:06,640 Speaker 1: uh personal responsibility narrative as if it's a false dichotomy. 708 00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:10,520 Speaker 1: It's an either or you're either taking personal responsibility for 709 00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:15,400 Speaker 1: your situation or you're blaming external factors, as if external 710 00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:20,040 Speaker 1: factors can't possibly be responsible, at least in part for 711 00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:24,359 Speaker 1: for your current situation, whatever that situation. Maybe, But yes, 712 00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:29,200 Speaker 1: I think what most minority groups need above anything else 713 00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:36,160 Speaker 1: in film representation is to be humanized, and I think 714 00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:41,479 Speaker 1: that Tangerine did do a good job of that. Yeah, 715 00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:45,160 Speaker 1: I'm also curious of UM going off of Tangerine a 716 00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:47,840 Speaker 1: little bit, what would you like to see more of 717 00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:52,000 Speaker 1: in terms of representation. What is UM something that you 718 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,160 Speaker 1: would like to see more of that that isn't quite 719 00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:56,720 Speaker 1: I don't know that isn't quite in the mainstream yet 720 00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:01,440 Speaker 1: as far as black trans women, or just in general, 721 00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:06,000 Speaker 1: as far as like Okay, so, one of my favorite 722 00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:08,719 Speaker 1: sci fi books, and one of the stories that I 723 00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:11,680 Speaker 1: point to as one of the best representation of a 724 00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:18,239 Speaker 1: trans person is a book called The Fifth Season by N. K. 725 00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:24,000 Speaker 1: J Emison, And there's a trans character in there who 726 00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:28,080 Speaker 1: you don't find out is trans until two thirds of 727 00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:33,680 Speaker 1: the way through the book. But until then, mostly what 728 00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:36,799 Speaker 1: you know about her is that she's this sort of 729 00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:42,040 Speaker 1: terminally curious mad scientist. She sees a new thing and 730 00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:43,880 Speaker 1: she's like, how does that work? I wonder what the 731 00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,400 Speaker 1: technical applications of this are. Maybe if we put this 732 00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:48,960 Speaker 1: thing in it, we could do this thing. And she 733 00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:51,719 Speaker 1: comes from a well to do family, but she is 734 00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:56,080 Speaker 1: pretty much exiled, not just because she's trans, but because 735 00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:58,720 Speaker 1: she was supposed to be the man of the house 736 00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:02,440 Speaker 1: who was supposed to marry you. Well, and she's like, well, 737 00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,279 Speaker 1: I can't do that because I'm a woman. I can't 738 00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:07,360 Speaker 1: be what you need me to be. And so I 739 00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:13,840 Speaker 1: really liked a story where a trans person her transness 740 00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:18,080 Speaker 1: is not her defining trait, but at the same time, 741 00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:23,239 Speaker 1: it doesn't pretend that it doesn't exist. So when you're saying, like, 742 00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:24,600 Speaker 1: what would I like to see more of, I would 743 00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:29,000 Speaker 1: like to see more things like that acknowledging someone's transness 744 00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:33,080 Speaker 1: without it being the defining trait for sure. Yeah, that's 745 00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:36,960 Speaker 1: a balance that it seems like Hollywood, at least, even 746 00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:41,439 Speaker 1: though slow and slight progress is being made in terms 747 00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:45,640 Speaker 1: of trans representation in Hollywood, it seems like still so 748 00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:48,760 Speaker 1: many of the stories or storylines and shows or whatever 749 00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:51,960 Speaker 1: are still very much contingent on well, this is a 750 00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:55,319 Speaker 1: trans person and that's the thing we know about them. Yes, 751 00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:58,799 Speaker 1: that there was a controversy about a video game. I 752 00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:01,279 Speaker 1: believe it was one of the Boulder's Gate or Ice 753 00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:06,840 Speaker 1: wind Dale Games, and um, there was a trans character 754 00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:13,000 Speaker 1: and it got criticized for poor representation because the trans 755 00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:18,759 Speaker 1: person disclosed their transness, their trans status. They mentioned it 756 00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:23,560 Speaker 1: in like the opening sentence of meeting the character, the 757 00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:26,280 Speaker 1: main character, So it would be the equivalent of going 758 00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:30,160 Speaker 1: up to someone it's like, Hi, Caitlin, nice to meet you. 759 00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:36,359 Speaker 1: I'm trans, so anyway, um and so yes, yes, and 760 00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:39,160 Speaker 1: so they were like, you know, yes, there is something 761 00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:43,080 Speaker 1: to be said for It's it's evolving, is the point 762 00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:47,000 Speaker 1: that I'm getting at. And so you have trans characters 763 00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:51,359 Speaker 1: and games now that aren't so in your face, but 764 00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:56,400 Speaker 1: but it's it's like, um, do you remember Atari, Remember 765 00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:59,960 Speaker 1: how it was originally blocks and now the PlayStation five 766 00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:02,319 Speaker 1: it is coming out and it looks damn near like 767 00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:06,960 Speaker 1: real people. Right. I think dialogues we have a sort 768 00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:11,279 Speaker 1: of the same progression. I like this metaphor. Yeah, it's 769 00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:14,759 Speaker 1: like this is this is good ship? Uh yeah. I 770 00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:19,320 Speaker 1: think that they're still figuring out. And me being having 771 00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:23,600 Speaker 1: Gothic tendencies, I don't usually lean toward optimism, but I 772 00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:28,480 Speaker 1: think that I think that they're they're working it out. Yeah, 773 00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:31,279 Speaker 1: And that's a lot of what that that documentary Disclosure 774 00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:37,000 Speaker 1: is about this sort of slow evolution of trans representation 775 00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:40,799 Speaker 1: in media, and how for decades and decades it was 776 00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:47,360 Speaker 1: all about transphobia, trans panic, just all of the really 777 00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:53,240 Speaker 1: harmful things that misrepresentation of trans people does for individuals 778 00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:56,959 Speaker 1: as well as culture at large, and how it's really 779 00:50:57,000 --> 00:51:02,240 Speaker 1: only been in the past like maybe five years, that 780 00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:06,680 Speaker 1: there's been any kind of headway made in terms of 781 00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:12,680 Speaker 1: progress towards more empathetic and positive representations of trans people 782 00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:17,680 Speaker 1: in popular media. I think that once the Internet came out, 783 00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:21,080 Speaker 1: Once we had the Internet, it was a rap because 784 00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:27,600 Speaker 1: knowledge is the bane of ignorance, and now with the Internet, 785 00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:31,000 Speaker 1: we can just know things at such a rapid pace. 786 00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:33,680 Speaker 1: A lot of people can know a thing very quickly, 787 00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:36,759 Speaker 1: and so I don't really think that there would be 788 00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:42,200 Speaker 1: a discussion of intersectional feminism at this rate, or Black 789 00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:47,560 Speaker 1: Lives Matter or trans issues without the information age that 790 00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:50,319 Speaker 1: we now live in totally and we would, I mean 791 00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:52,680 Speaker 1: we What we were talking about in the episode is 792 00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:56,319 Speaker 1: it's it seems like Tangerine is a good step in 793 00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:58,880 Speaker 1: the right direction, But I hope in a couple of 794 00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:01,919 Speaker 1: years we're at a point where it's like a sci 795 00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:05,799 Speaker 1: fi story with a trans protagonist, that would be fucking incredible. 796 00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:09,640 Speaker 1: And just like you were saying, just you know, centering 797 00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:12,120 Speaker 1: the story on a trans character in a way that 798 00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:16,880 Speaker 1: isn't like and this is what trans representation is. It's like, no, 799 00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:21,040 Speaker 1: we're in a sci fi world with a trans character, right. Absolutely, 800 00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:28,080 Speaker 1: the normalization is still something we need to normalize. If 801 00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:35,480 Speaker 1: that makes any sense. Yes, it really makes you think. 802 00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:40,319 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's a process, but it's something we'll 803 00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:45,200 Speaker 1: just have to keep working on. Because I remember watching 804 00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:49,080 Speaker 1: a documentary on the representation of black people on the 805 00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:51,440 Speaker 1: screen back when they were black and white movies, and 806 00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:55,960 Speaker 1: there was a time when if a black person was 807 00:52:56,080 --> 00:53:00,560 Speaker 1: on the screen for a couple of seconds, black families 808 00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:03,120 Speaker 1: would call out to everyone in the house and say, 809 00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:06,200 Speaker 1: look a black person on TV. And they would all 810 00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:10,000 Speaker 1: run to the TV to watch the black person on TV. 811 00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:15,080 Speaker 1: And this was before say Living Single or The Cosby 812 00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:20,000 Speaker 1: Show or What's Happening or Family Matters, and so yeah, 813 00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:25,040 Speaker 1: I think most groups, probably when it comes to representation, 814 00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:30,400 Speaker 1: uh go through this process as we talk about on 815 00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:34,960 Speaker 1: the show. Often representation will kind of come in waves 816 00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:37,400 Speaker 1: or there will be stages to it where First of all, 817 00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:40,840 Speaker 1: any marginalized group will be more or less just erased, 818 00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:45,520 Speaker 1: pretend that they don't exist in media. Then there will 819 00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:48,960 Speaker 1: be an acknowledgment of their existence and an inclusion of 820 00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:56,000 Speaker 1: it on screen, but that that representation will be horrifying, racist, transphobic, 821 00:53:56,120 --> 00:53:59,520 Speaker 1: you know all yeah, just like really damaging. And then 822 00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:03,040 Speaker 1: when we when you know, enough people realize that that's 823 00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:06,400 Speaker 1: not good, then there will be more progress to something. 824 00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:08,640 Speaker 1: And then and then that's what injurin even is like 825 00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:13,200 Speaker 1: that very particular sub step that we've noticed where it's like, Okay, 826 00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:17,400 Speaker 1: we're going to center this story on black trans women 827 00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:21,880 Speaker 1: in an authentic way. The director is still some random 828 00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:24,840 Speaker 1: white guy who went to n y U. But you know, 829 00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:28,840 Speaker 1: it's like the story is still not like given to 830 00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:32,560 Speaker 1: the people who need to be telling it. So it's 831 00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:36,400 Speaker 1: like a step like inching inching, inching forward. Yeah, a 832 00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:38,520 Speaker 1: lot of people don't know that the writers for Good 833 00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:42,319 Speaker 1: Times were all white, Oh wow, yeah to begin with. 834 00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:47,000 Speaker 1: And so yeah, yeah, that is definitely a process that 835 00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:50,440 Speaker 1: it was the source of some tension between the actors 836 00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:55,439 Speaker 1: and the writers sometimes, I'd imagine, so yeah, but yeah, 837 00:54:55,600 --> 00:55:00,600 Speaker 1: it is, it is part of the the evolution something 838 00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:03,560 Speaker 1: that I think most of us believe in. Yes, yes, 839 00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:10,160 Speaker 1: but yes, but um but yeah, I do think it is. 840 00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:11,600 Speaker 1: It is one of the things that is part of 841 00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:16,760 Speaker 1: a normal process, the no representation, then really bad representation, 842 00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:22,759 Speaker 1: and then small stepping stones, and then someday, hopefully very soon, 843 00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:26,080 Speaker 1: we have just no one could take any issues with 844 00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:29,640 Speaker 1: the representation that we see because it's at a place 845 00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:34,279 Speaker 1: where it's positive and good and yeah, a sci fi 846 00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:37,440 Speaker 1: expanded universe, right and that and that will come with 847 00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:40,759 Speaker 1: trans people being the ones to tell their own stories. 848 00:55:41,239 --> 00:55:45,440 Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely. I look forward to the day when when 849 00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:49,200 Speaker 1: the country can hate a trans villain because she's a douche, 850 00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:55,760 Speaker 1: right and yeah, and not because she's like a weird 851 00:55:56,160 --> 00:56:02,839 Speaker 1: trophy murderer. Yeah. M hm um. Do you have any 852 00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:05,759 Speaker 1: other thoughts, any other things you'd like to share in 853 00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:11,040 Speaker 1: terms of Tangerine specifically or representation in general. One thing 854 00:56:11,239 --> 00:56:16,719 Speaker 1: that I thought was particularly poignant about Tangerine, and I 855 00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:22,120 Speaker 1: think this is true of many minority groups, but I 856 00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:25,960 Speaker 1: think trans women and trans women of color in particular 857 00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:32,279 Speaker 1: is so. Towards the very end, she found out that 858 00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:36,759 Speaker 1: her best friend cheated with her boyfriend, and she was like, 859 00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:41,480 Speaker 1: too angry to be angry, too angry to be angry, 860 00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:45,279 Speaker 1: and she's trying to walk away, and then she's a 861 00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:50,359 Speaker 1: victim of this hate crime. And then Alexandra takes her 862 00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:54,839 Speaker 1: to the laundromat to get cleaned up and gives her 863 00:56:54,960 --> 00:57:00,200 Speaker 1: her wig, which is wow, which is a major gestre 864 00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:03,920 Speaker 1: And one thing I thought was very poignant was about 865 00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:11,240 Speaker 1: how to some extent marginalized people have this bond because 866 00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:15,080 Speaker 1: they have to because the at the end of the day, 867 00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:21,040 Speaker 1: the rest of the world is against marginalized people. And 868 00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:24,880 Speaker 1: um I thought that it ended on a note that 869 00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:29,560 Speaker 1: expressed the value of sticking together and being there for 870 00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:34,439 Speaker 1: each other. Well, Violet, thank you so much for taking 871 00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:37,600 Speaker 1: the time to chat with us. Thank you so much 872 00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:40,320 Speaker 1: for having me. It was so much fun. Give us 873 00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:43,240 Speaker 1: your plugs, your social media handles. Where can people follow you? 874 00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:48,120 Speaker 1: And oh sure on Instagram I'm Chaotic Violet. You get 875 00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:53,000 Speaker 1: to see all my weird Renaissance Fair costumes. And on 876 00:57:53,000 --> 00:58:00,520 Speaker 1: Twitter I'm Violet Silver. And this Monday, I'm going to 877 00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:05,040 Speaker 1: be on the butter Boy comedy Zip show. Yeah with 878 00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:11,880 Speaker 1: a partner punches. Yeah, that is where you can find 879 00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:17,280 Speaker 1: oh Violent Gray on YouTube and yeah, that's it. Incredible, amazing, 880 00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:20,160 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, so much for joining us, Thank 881 00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:24,200 Speaker 1: you for having me. Wonderful. Yeah, let's take a quick 882 00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:32,600 Speaker 1: break and then we'll be back for more. Um, we're back, 883 00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:36,520 Speaker 1: We're back. And another thing that I love how this 884 00:58:36,560 --> 00:58:39,520 Speaker 1: movie like chose the line of you so often see 885 00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:43,160 Speaker 1: like characters defined by their own trauma. Like, I think 886 00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:47,760 Speaker 1: that that's a lot of like when sis hat white 887 00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:50,360 Speaker 1: guys are writing outside of their own experience, and when 888 00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:52,960 Speaker 1: like a lot of like when any writer is writing 889 00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:54,800 Speaker 1: outside of their own experience, I feel like it is 890 00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:58,720 Speaker 1: a really lazy writing tactic to lean on defining someone 891 00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:01,040 Speaker 1: by their trauma. And I think this movie, for the 892 00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:04,360 Speaker 1: most part, toes the line really well of portraying that, 893 00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:07,720 Speaker 1: like there are very very real struggles that these characters 894 00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:11,880 Speaker 1: are encountering. We find out that Cindy was just put 895 00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:15,400 Speaker 1: in jail it seems like for not a good reason. Um, 896 00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:19,720 Speaker 1: And and the kind of looming presence of the cops 897 00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:23,800 Speaker 1: that never fully explodes, but it's always there, like you 898 00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:28,720 Speaker 1: you see the unfair ship that they have to deal with, 899 00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:32,240 Speaker 1: but it doesn't dominate the story in a way that 900 00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:35,800 Speaker 1: defines them. What defines the story is how you know, 901 00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:40,200 Speaker 1: it is primarily like Alexandra and Cindy's friendship, which is 902 00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:44,360 Speaker 1: so like fun to see and that that's a whole 903 00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:50,240 Speaker 1: journey as well. And yeah, it's also I mean, the 904 00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:55,320 Speaker 1: characters themselves, many of them are not I guess, for 905 00:59:55,400 --> 01:00:01,880 Speaker 1: lack of a better term, woke. Like there's there's slurs 906 01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:05,360 Speaker 1: that I know, there's you know, there's reductive and offensive 907 01:00:05,520 --> 01:00:08,680 Speaker 1: name calling that gets thrown around. There's I mean, a 908 01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:12,000 Speaker 1: large component of the story is Cindy being pretty violent 909 01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:18,160 Speaker 1: toward another woman and not holding Chester accountable enough perhaps 910 01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:21,360 Speaker 1: for cheating and really and targeting the other woman, you know, 911 01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:23,760 Speaker 1: which is a thing that always you know, dings are 912 01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:26,920 Speaker 1: little bill. But at the same time, like I I 913 01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:29,880 Speaker 1: give all of that a past just because again that 914 01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:33,439 Speaker 1: that these characters feel. So I'm like, yes, that would 915 01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:37,040 Speaker 1: probably happen. And of course this Dina is such an Dina, 916 01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:40,160 Speaker 1: I mean, and she she has her own like sub 917 01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:44,080 Speaker 1: story as well, but like when you meet Dinah, she's 918 01:00:44,280 --> 01:00:50,800 Speaker 1: such an antagonistic asshole, like you know it it doesn't 919 01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:53,480 Speaker 1: necessarily justify the violence against her. But I also it's like, 920 01:00:53,680 --> 01:00:57,040 Speaker 1: I don't know that Cindy is already upset. Uh Dina 921 01:00:57,560 --> 01:01:00,240 Speaker 1: does not approach the situation in a way that does 922 01:01:00,280 --> 01:01:04,800 Speaker 1: remotely like cool or calm or anything, and so I 923 01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:07,960 Speaker 1: feel like it's justified in story of like, you know, 924 01:01:08,080 --> 01:01:10,680 Speaker 1: particularly when you first meet her, before you get those 925 01:01:10,720 --> 01:01:13,360 Speaker 1: like more tender moments and you get more context for her, 926 01:01:13,680 --> 01:01:17,000 Speaker 1: You're like, oh, I get why Cindy is like pissed 927 01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:20,880 Speaker 1: at at at this lady. But also as as shitty 928 01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:24,120 Speaker 1: as all the men are in the movie The Men, 929 01:01:25,240 --> 01:01:28,520 Speaker 1: you never really get the feeling that any of the 930 01:01:28,520 --> 01:01:32,760 Speaker 1: women are actually threatened by them, though in real life 931 01:01:32,800 --> 01:01:36,000 Speaker 1: that might not be the case. Um in the film, 932 01:01:36,120 --> 01:01:39,200 Speaker 1: you don't. You don't get that impression, right, that's true, 933 01:01:39,240 --> 01:01:44,720 Speaker 1: I guess. Yeah, with Alexandra's um client early on, where 934 01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:47,240 Speaker 1: he only has forty bucks and he's like trying to 935 01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:51,240 Speaker 1: short change her and like she's she has none of it, 936 01:01:51,560 --> 01:01:55,640 Speaker 1: and it ends up like if the situation flares up, 937 01:01:55,720 --> 01:01:59,960 Speaker 1: but eventually it's fine and she has control of the situation. 938 01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:04,160 Speaker 1: She gets her forty bucks, right at least, I forget. 939 01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:07,720 Speaker 1: I don't think she ever does she not because the 940 01:02:08,080 --> 01:02:13,240 Speaker 1: cops in fear. Yeah, but then she she does meet 941 01:02:13,320 --> 01:02:16,760 Speaker 1: up with Resumek, who gives her money, but resume is 942 01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:21,320 Speaker 1: also um, it's complicated. Yeah, but that's I mean right. 943 01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:24,880 Speaker 1: And then also, like I wanted to mention that even 944 01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:29,760 Speaker 1: though Cindy is literally dragging Dina by her hair and 945 01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:33,320 Speaker 1: being violent towards her and all this stuff, I can't 946 01:02:33,360 --> 01:02:36,520 Speaker 1: speak from personal experience, but I have to imagine that she, 947 01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:40,920 Speaker 1: as a black trans woman, would feel very betrayed by 948 01:02:41,120 --> 01:02:45,240 Speaker 1: Chester cheating on her with a cis white woman. And 949 01:02:45,360 --> 01:02:47,920 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, yeah, I get it, Like I'm not 950 01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:52,880 Speaker 1: necessarily pro her hitting Dinah, but I don't know, I am. 951 01:02:54,040 --> 01:02:57,760 Speaker 1: I totally was, Yeah, if anyone's going to do it, it 952 01:02:57,640 --> 01:03:01,360 Speaker 1: it should be her, right, right. It feels like it's 953 01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:07,560 Speaker 1: not it's not it's not really abusive. Yeah, She's just 954 01:03:08,040 --> 01:03:10,280 Speaker 1: she was betrayed and they were having fun. It just 955 01:03:10,320 --> 01:03:13,240 Speaker 1: looks it looks like it looks good. They smoked myth together. 956 01:03:13,440 --> 01:03:17,720 Speaker 1: It's fine. It is. It's like different rules. It's so 957 01:03:17,880 --> 01:03:21,680 Speaker 1: because it's like not not to excuse a kidnapping, but 958 01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:25,720 Speaker 1: it seems like a pretty light kidnapping because because by 959 01:03:25,760 --> 01:03:29,600 Speaker 1: the time they're on the bus, like even Dinah is 960 01:03:29,680 --> 01:03:31,560 Speaker 1: kind of like joking about it. She's like, oh, can 961 01:03:31,600 --> 01:03:33,760 Speaker 1: I pick up my hair tie, is that okay, I'm 962 01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:36,200 Speaker 1: still your captive, But like, can I put my hair back? 963 01:03:36,560 --> 01:03:39,680 Speaker 1: And Sandy's like, yeah, fine whatever, and it's like, okay, 964 01:03:39,720 --> 01:03:42,280 Speaker 1: this is a very friendly kidnapping. They go to a 965 01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:47,000 Speaker 1: show together, they you know, it's um yeah. When they 966 01:03:47,040 --> 01:03:49,800 Speaker 1: went to the bar and the door guy said she's 967 01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:52,600 Speaker 1: she's only got one shoe, she said she's from the hills, 968 01:03:53,320 --> 01:04:01,200 Speaker 1: She's a hillbilly, and the door guys just like sure, fine, whatever, great. Yeah. 969 01:04:01,440 --> 01:04:03,720 Speaker 1: I mean, I keep having to remind myself that, like, 970 01:04:04,680 --> 01:04:08,680 Speaker 1: these are people whose survival instinct and is just like 971 01:04:09,200 --> 01:04:14,320 Speaker 1: survival mentality is so much more heightened than mine needs 972 01:04:14,360 --> 01:04:17,320 Speaker 1: to be because of my privilege, Like I don't need 973 01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:19,520 Speaker 1: to be out on the streets where the risk of 974 01:04:19,760 --> 01:04:23,960 Speaker 1: danger and violence against me is much greater. So I 975 01:04:24,160 --> 01:04:28,360 Speaker 1: have to remind myself, like, while I wouldn't drag another 976 01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:32,720 Speaker 1: woman out onto the street by her hair, like I 977 01:04:32,720 --> 01:04:36,080 Speaker 1: am not put in danger every day. Also that the 978 01:04:36,120 --> 01:04:40,400 Speaker 1: stakes are a little higher when you consider that going 979 01:04:40,440 --> 01:04:44,800 Speaker 1: back to jail for either of these women most likely 980 01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:50,040 Speaker 1: means being put in a jail with men, right, very true, 981 01:04:51,200 --> 01:04:53,080 Speaker 1: I think that. Yeah, And and the fact that that 982 01:04:53,120 --> 01:04:57,080 Speaker 1: that even though they're not credited as writing it, the 983 01:04:57,120 --> 01:05:01,080 Speaker 1: fact that Maya and Kiki are writing this story from 984 01:05:01,160 --> 01:05:06,320 Speaker 1: their own experiences. You know, they're presenting true experiences and 985 01:05:06,360 --> 01:05:08,560 Speaker 1: they're presenting it in a way that is very fun 986 01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:11,680 Speaker 1: to watch. And I mean, yeah, that's why the movie 987 01:05:11,760 --> 01:05:14,760 Speaker 1: is good, Like it's it's because of them and their 988 01:05:14,760 --> 01:05:19,040 Speaker 1: performances and their input and there lived experiences that get 989 01:05:19,160 --> 01:05:22,560 Speaker 1: adapted to the screen. Like yeah, that's why this movie 990 01:05:22,640 --> 01:05:25,240 Speaker 1: was a success. And it's like, let's be honest, if 991 01:05:25,280 --> 01:05:30,520 Speaker 1: we had just let Sean and Chris like, yeah, guess 992 01:05:30,560 --> 01:05:35,320 Speaker 1: their way around what the relationship between Cindy and Dinah 993 01:05:35,320 --> 01:05:38,760 Speaker 1: would be, they would have gotten it so wrong, like 994 01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:40,960 Speaker 1: it would have been recoiem for a Dream with a 995 01:05:41,080 --> 01:05:47,920 Speaker 1: song exactly. It would have just and and so yeah 996 01:05:47,960 --> 01:05:52,040 Speaker 1: everything and this movie that it just that you're just like, oh, 997 01:05:52,080 --> 01:05:54,919 Speaker 1: I don't but it's like it's they're they're telling their 998 01:05:54,920 --> 01:05:57,280 Speaker 1: own story in an authentic way and it's based on 999 01:05:57,320 --> 01:06:01,000 Speaker 1: true experiences, and it's just like okay that that it 1000 01:06:01,120 --> 01:06:03,800 Speaker 1: is what it is like they're they're telling their story. 1001 01:06:04,360 --> 01:06:06,680 Speaker 1: M hmm. Now it was a good time to cut 1002 01:06:06,720 --> 01:06:11,040 Speaker 1: to our next segment with another special guest. She is 1003 01:06:11,400 --> 01:06:16,560 Speaker 1: a comedian, a writer for The Portland's Mercury. She's an 1004 01:06:16,560 --> 01:06:24,440 Speaker 1: associate producer of the Portlands Queer Comedy Festival. It's Dhalia Bell. Welcome, 1005 01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:26,920 Speaker 1: thanks for being here. Yeah, thank you so much for 1006 01:06:26,960 --> 01:06:31,840 Speaker 1: having me. Of course, of course, so we just wanted 1007 01:06:31,920 --> 01:06:37,840 Speaker 1: to hear your thoughts on the representation of black trans 1008 01:06:37,840 --> 01:06:41,520 Speaker 1: women in the movie Tangerine specifically, and then if you 1009 01:06:41,600 --> 01:06:47,200 Speaker 1: had any other thoughts on trans representation, black trans representation, 1010 01:06:47,360 --> 01:06:51,840 Speaker 1: the intersection of those things in media in general. Yeah. 1011 01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:54,840 Speaker 1: So um, to be entirely honest, I did have to 1012 01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:58,760 Speaker 1: go back and watch the movie about two nights ago, 1013 01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:05,600 Speaker 1: and yeah, it did not wrote me. Well, I will 1014 01:07:05,640 --> 01:07:09,560 Speaker 1: say that, And I really had to do some personal 1015 01:07:09,720 --> 01:07:15,440 Speaker 1: soul searching because you know, initially I'm like, am I 1016 01:07:16,040 --> 01:07:20,760 Speaker 1: so puritanical or am I so caught up in respectability 1017 01:07:20,800 --> 01:07:26,440 Speaker 1: that I'm opposed to the representation of a black trans 1018 01:07:26,480 --> 01:07:30,760 Speaker 1: women as sex workers? And I thought about that and no, 1019 01:07:31,360 --> 01:07:36,600 Speaker 1: I'm absolutely not. And quite honestly, many of my friends 1020 01:07:36,640 --> 01:07:41,000 Speaker 1: are full service sex workers. So I'm like, no, that's 1021 01:07:41,040 --> 01:07:45,680 Speaker 1: not my issue. Is even necessarily the drug use, I 1022 01:07:45,760 --> 01:07:51,080 Speaker 1: would say, No, I do understand where drug use does 1023 01:07:51,160 --> 01:07:54,280 Speaker 1: play a role in both trans culture and the broader 1024 01:07:54,360 --> 01:07:59,240 Speaker 1: queer culture. Um simply you know, being stuck in situations 1025 01:07:59,240 --> 01:08:03,400 Speaker 1: where we're trying to find ourselves, and in many cases 1026 01:08:03,480 --> 01:08:08,800 Speaker 1: I've been a pro drug advocate. However, the representation I 1027 01:08:08,840 --> 01:08:13,720 Speaker 1: feel is very sloppy and relies on some very familiar 1028 01:08:13,800 --> 01:08:19,920 Speaker 1: troops that I think, generally speaking, representations of trans women 1029 01:08:19,960 --> 01:08:26,120 Speaker 1: are guilty of. For example, the image of so First 1030 01:08:26,160 --> 01:08:29,360 Speaker 1: I do want to come in the movie for casting 1031 01:08:29,760 --> 01:08:34,559 Speaker 1: what I would say are realistic, average looking trans women, 1032 01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:38,360 Speaker 1: as opposed to even a program I love like Pose, 1033 01:08:38,840 --> 01:08:43,960 Speaker 1: where you have the obviously over glamorized methods that people 1034 01:08:44,040 --> 01:08:48,840 Speaker 1: want to see, but all the same, I feel it's 1035 01:08:48,880 --> 01:08:54,040 Speaker 1: a very messy image of trans sex workers. It kind 1036 01:08:54,080 --> 01:08:58,479 Speaker 1: of paints us as buffoons, sort of the old step 1037 01:08:58,479 --> 01:09:04,080 Speaker 1: and fetch it. Addition, then the trope of you know, 1038 01:09:04,200 --> 01:09:08,519 Speaker 1: fighting over the affection of some ne'er do well sis 1039 01:09:08,560 --> 01:09:14,240 Speaker 1: male you know, yeah, exactly, like why is that always 1040 01:09:14,240 --> 01:09:19,479 Speaker 1: our ultimate prize? You know, like surely there's nothing else 1041 01:09:19,600 --> 01:09:25,360 Speaker 1: that trans women could possibly want than some random CIS losers. 1042 01:09:26,479 --> 01:09:34,240 Speaker 1: And that is putting it nicely, honestly, Like chester Chester sucks. Yeah, 1043 01:09:34,479 --> 01:09:41,080 Speaker 1: he's garbage. I mean, I I I speak only for myself, 1044 01:09:41,560 --> 01:09:44,719 Speaker 1: but honestly, I think I speak for a lot of 1045 01:09:45,360 --> 01:09:49,800 Speaker 1: especially contemporary trans women, when I say many of us 1046 01:09:49,920 --> 01:09:57,200 Speaker 1: do ultimately embrace what appears to be exclusively lesbian lifestyles 1047 01:09:57,400 --> 01:10:02,160 Speaker 1: or ways of being or identities, because our experiences with 1048 01:10:02,479 --> 01:10:06,920 Speaker 1: six men are so negative and at a certain point, 1049 01:10:06,960 --> 01:10:09,840 Speaker 1: you feel like, is this worth my time? Is this 1050 01:10:10,400 --> 01:10:13,599 Speaker 1: something worth chasing after? And that's a question that's never 1051 01:10:13,640 --> 01:10:18,680 Speaker 1: really raised in any depiction of trans women that I 1052 01:10:18,680 --> 01:10:23,959 Speaker 1: have ever seen. There's always this element of us longing 1053 01:10:24,160 --> 01:10:30,519 Speaker 1: for the affection of this class. I I don't know why. Yeah, 1054 01:10:30,760 --> 01:10:33,599 Speaker 1: I totally see your point. The first I've seen this 1055 01:10:33,640 --> 01:10:37,800 Speaker 1: movie a few times now, Um, I love it. I 1056 01:10:37,840 --> 01:10:41,400 Speaker 1: think it's such a long romp, And of course I'm 1057 01:10:41,520 --> 01:10:43,400 Speaker 1: coming at it, you know, Jamie and I are coming 1058 01:10:43,439 --> 01:10:48,160 Speaker 1: at it with blind spots, with our backgrounds. So I 1059 01:10:48,200 --> 01:10:52,080 Speaker 1: hadn't even fully considered your point about the kind of 1060 01:10:52,400 --> 01:10:57,320 Speaker 1: buffoonery that is arguably displayed. I always sort of interpreted 1061 01:10:57,360 --> 01:11:00,640 Speaker 1: that is, Oh, but they're fun, and they're they're just 1062 01:11:01,080 --> 01:11:04,639 Speaker 1: you know, they're goofy, and we're seeing like rather than 1063 01:11:05,479 --> 01:11:08,960 Speaker 1: a tragic story, which is how many transnarratives play out. 1064 01:11:08,960 --> 01:11:12,559 Speaker 1: We're seeing a fun a fun romp. So that was 1065 01:11:12,640 --> 01:11:17,000 Speaker 1: like always my kind of like, you know, just interpretation 1066 01:11:17,080 --> 01:11:20,040 Speaker 1: of that. But I totally see your point. And I 1067 01:11:20,080 --> 01:11:24,040 Speaker 1: had to look at that, you know, numerous times, because 1068 01:11:24,840 --> 01:11:30,960 Speaker 1: is it inherently buffoonery to have trans performers in you know, 1069 01:11:31,040 --> 01:11:34,679 Speaker 1: slapstick sort of roles and to make that argument would 1070 01:11:34,680 --> 01:11:38,599 Speaker 1: be very problematic as well. Um, but I think for me, 1071 01:11:38,760 --> 01:11:42,200 Speaker 1: it's a matter of looking at that intersection of black 1072 01:11:42,880 --> 01:11:49,200 Speaker 1: heritage and black history within American cinema and then trans representation, 1073 01:11:49,439 --> 01:11:53,439 Speaker 1: and when you really look at the then diagram of that, 1074 01:11:54,120 --> 01:11:57,920 Speaker 1: I think there are some issues raised. You know, we 1075 01:11:57,920 --> 01:12:00,320 Speaker 1: were we've been talking a lot about how, I mean, 1076 01:12:00,400 --> 01:12:03,800 Speaker 1: the fact that the movie is written and directed by 1077 01:12:04,280 --> 01:12:08,120 Speaker 1: sis white guys as well. Um, yeah, likely you know 1078 01:12:08,120 --> 01:12:11,800 Speaker 1: if factors into a lot of what's going on within 1079 01:12:11,880 --> 01:12:15,320 Speaker 1: the movie that maybe doesn't match up quite well, and 1080 01:12:15,479 --> 01:12:19,879 Speaker 1: how to lead actresses in this movie. We're not credited 1081 01:12:19,880 --> 01:12:23,200 Speaker 1: as writers even though they had a huge influence on 1082 01:12:23,240 --> 01:12:26,400 Speaker 1: what happened in the story, and then ultimately all the 1083 01:12:26,439 --> 01:12:28,920 Speaker 1: credit going back to you know, the the tissue grad 1084 01:12:29,640 --> 01:12:35,320 Speaker 1: um is exhausting So that was the first time you 1085 01:12:35,360 --> 01:12:38,679 Speaker 1: had seen it? Is that right? Is that? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? 1086 01:12:38,680 --> 01:12:43,639 Speaker 1: And it was interesting. Is My partner is also non 1087 01:12:43,640 --> 01:12:49,160 Speaker 1: binary trans their gender fluid though, but it was their 1088 01:12:49,360 --> 01:12:54,880 Speaker 1: second or third time saying it. And they're more a 1089 01:12:54,920 --> 01:12:59,920 Speaker 1: fan of like queer cinema. So we've been they've been 1090 01:13:00,160 --> 01:13:05,280 Speaker 1: like taking me on this tour of all the queer 1091 01:13:06,200 --> 01:13:11,000 Speaker 1: classics and you know, kind of realizing some holes and 1092 01:13:11,160 --> 01:13:15,360 Speaker 1: blind spots and a lot of the films that a 1093 01:13:15,400 --> 01:13:20,000 Speaker 1: lot of us felt were formative, you know, just because 1094 01:13:20,280 --> 01:13:23,679 Speaker 1: at that time the people that were in the writing 1095 01:13:23,760 --> 01:13:28,080 Speaker 1: room weren't necessarily part of our community. Or even the 1096 01:13:28,080 --> 01:13:30,120 Speaker 1: people in the writing rooms who are part of the 1097 01:13:30,120 --> 01:13:34,640 Speaker 1: community are likely those who fit into a specific narrative 1098 01:13:35,800 --> 01:13:37,679 Speaker 1: that makes That makes a ton of sense. We hadn't 1099 01:13:37,680 --> 01:13:39,760 Speaker 1: even come at it from that angle. That makes a 1100 01:13:39,760 --> 01:13:42,640 Speaker 1: ton of sense. Um, Is there any I mean not 1101 01:13:42,720 --> 01:13:44,240 Speaker 1: to we don't want to put you on the spot, 1102 01:13:44,400 --> 01:13:49,040 Speaker 1: but what would you like to see more from in 1103 01:13:49,160 --> 01:13:53,200 Speaker 1: terms of trans representation in in film in general and 1104 01:13:53,240 --> 01:13:56,599 Speaker 1: black trans representation. Yeah, I guess what I would really 1105 01:13:56,640 --> 01:14:00,280 Speaker 1: like to see would be I guess the happy medium, 1106 01:14:00,840 --> 01:14:04,320 Speaker 1: you know, the happy medium, even if we're we're going 1107 01:14:04,400 --> 01:14:08,599 Speaker 1: to be represented exclusively as sex workers. You know, I 1108 01:14:08,600 --> 01:14:13,040 Speaker 1: I get why that trope is still useful. Um, but 1109 01:14:13,520 --> 01:14:15,160 Speaker 1: even if we're going to do that, I would like 1110 01:14:15,240 --> 01:14:19,160 Speaker 1: it to be maybe a happy medium between say Tangerine 1111 01:14:19,360 --> 01:14:25,200 Speaker 1: and Pose, where you have these realistic, average looking, perhaps 1112 01:14:25,320 --> 01:14:31,720 Speaker 1: quote unquote nonpassable trans sex workers who are empowered, not 1113 01:14:31,800 --> 01:14:39,760 Speaker 1: necessarily wealthy, not necessarily glamorous, but not being exploited or 1114 01:14:39,920 --> 01:14:43,040 Speaker 1: you know, being reckless or things of this sort, but 1115 01:14:43,200 --> 01:14:48,360 Speaker 1: actually flourishing, thriving. Maybe a montage sort of show where 1116 01:14:48,479 --> 01:14:53,559 Speaker 1: maybe you have the U trans call girl and then 1117 01:14:53,560 --> 01:14:57,720 Speaker 1: you of the trans businesswoman and you know, the trans 1118 01:14:58,240 --> 01:15:03,720 Speaker 1: whatever this dude does, he's a but you know, just 1119 01:15:04,120 --> 01:15:09,240 Speaker 1: allow us to be human being and not just the 1120 01:15:09,400 --> 01:15:17,440 Speaker 1: sort of trout either for cheap laughs or otherwise gratuity 1121 01:15:17,560 --> 01:15:22,800 Speaker 1: or sexualization things of that sort. Absolutely. Yeah, And as 1122 01:15:22,880 --> 01:15:28,519 Speaker 1: we've been discussing, you know, representation is often unless it's 1123 01:15:28,760 --> 01:15:34,240 Speaker 1: representation of like assist white wealthy men who there's an 1124 01:15:34,240 --> 01:15:39,760 Speaker 1: abundance of representation for in cinema. You know, we talked 1125 01:15:39,800 --> 01:15:43,760 Speaker 1: about how there's an evolution in terms of representation. It 1126 01:15:43,840 --> 01:15:49,320 Speaker 1: goes from erasure to negative representation, two steps in the 1127 01:15:49,400 --> 01:15:53,559 Speaker 1: right direction to positive representation, and it feels like we're 1128 01:15:53,560 --> 01:15:56,839 Speaker 1: still somewhere in the steps in the right direction phase 1129 01:15:57,080 --> 01:16:00,479 Speaker 1: in terms of trans representation in film and t and 1130 01:16:00,560 --> 01:16:02,880 Speaker 1: Tangerine feels to me like a good step in the 1131 01:16:03,000 --> 01:16:07,400 Speaker 1: right direction, but maybe not what we want to see ideally, 1132 01:16:08,040 --> 01:16:11,920 Speaker 1: especially because the people behind the camera and taking credit 1133 01:16:12,040 --> 01:16:16,160 Speaker 1: for writing the script and things like that are white 1134 01:16:16,240 --> 01:16:19,800 Speaker 1: sis men telling the story of black trans women. Yeah, 1135 01:16:19,920 --> 01:16:21,320 Speaker 1: I don't know, would you would you agree with that 1136 01:16:21,360 --> 01:16:24,240 Speaker 1: assessment that, you know, Tangerine's a step in the right direction. 1137 01:16:24,960 --> 01:16:28,880 Speaker 1: I think it will definitely be included in the cannon 1138 01:16:29,080 --> 01:16:33,519 Speaker 1: long term. You know, I think Tyler Perry still has 1139 01:16:33,640 --> 01:16:36,920 Speaker 1: his place within black cinema. That doesn't mean I'm going 1140 01:16:36,960 --> 01:16:41,880 Speaker 1: to necessarily watch a Tyler Perry movie on purpose. Um, 1141 01:16:41,920 --> 01:16:46,639 Speaker 1: media isn't your favorite? Yeah, you have to spring Tyler 1142 01:16:46,680 --> 01:16:51,439 Speaker 1: Perry on someone get to walk in the room and 1143 01:16:51,479 --> 01:16:54,080 Speaker 1: it's already been on for forty five minutes and you're like, 1144 01:16:54,160 --> 01:17:04,880 Speaker 1: all right, it's too late. Um. Any other any other 1145 01:17:04,920 --> 01:17:07,120 Speaker 1: thoughts you'd like to share? No, I try to keep 1146 01:17:07,160 --> 01:17:09,439 Speaker 1: most of my thoughts to myself. It helps me keep 1147 01:17:09,439 --> 01:17:13,720 Speaker 1: you friends well. Thank you so much for joining us. 1148 01:17:13,800 --> 01:17:17,759 Speaker 1: This has been so wonderful. Um, give us your your plugs. 1149 01:17:17,800 --> 01:17:20,960 Speaker 1: Where can people follow you online? Anything you'd like to plug? 1150 01:17:21,520 --> 01:17:27,559 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well I'm gonna behave um. So I think 1151 01:17:27,600 --> 01:17:29,720 Speaker 1: one of the more fun places to follow me is 1152 01:17:29,920 --> 01:17:35,559 Speaker 1: on Instagram at mixed at Dahlia Bell, Mix thing an 1153 01:17:35,800 --> 01:17:39,799 Speaker 1: x dot Dahlia Bell. You could also follow me on 1154 01:17:39,800 --> 01:17:45,040 Speaker 1: Facebook at Dahlia dalis Bell or mix Dahlia Bell when 1155 01:17:45,080 --> 01:17:48,800 Speaker 1: it is my comedy page, which kind of mirrors my Instagram. 1156 01:17:48,880 --> 01:17:52,479 Speaker 1: This is way too long of an exploration us. Keep 1157 01:17:52,840 --> 01:17:55,040 Speaker 1: keep going. We want to keep me want to follow 1158 01:17:55,120 --> 01:18:02,479 Speaker 1: you everywhere. Okay, if you follow my personal Facebook page, 1159 01:18:02,520 --> 01:18:07,000 Speaker 1: it's mostly my random political rantings and existential dread that 1160 01:18:07,040 --> 01:18:10,479 Speaker 1: I experienced every morning around two am, of course. But 1161 01:18:10,600 --> 01:18:13,960 Speaker 1: my instagram are really cute pictures of me, so that 1162 01:18:13,960 --> 01:18:17,400 Speaker 1: that's really where you should get. What a great balance though, 1163 01:18:17,479 --> 01:18:20,719 Speaker 1: of depending on the vibes that you're seeking, there's always 1164 01:18:20,800 --> 01:18:28,960 Speaker 1: there's a lot of options, there's always thank you, Thank 1165 01:18:28,960 --> 01:18:31,640 Speaker 1: you so much again, Thank you you were wonderful. Have 1166 01:18:31,760 --> 01:18:35,240 Speaker 1: a good day. Yeah, thanks again, Dahlia And now we're 1167 01:18:35,280 --> 01:18:44,360 Speaker 1: back with Kai Choyce. Um, does anyone have any other thoughts, feelings, feelings. Yeah, 1168 01:18:44,360 --> 01:18:46,840 Speaker 1: I talk to us about your feelings. Kind So I 1169 01:18:46,920 --> 01:18:49,720 Speaker 1: just think everyone should should know that. Um, if you 1170 01:18:49,800 --> 01:18:53,080 Speaker 1: got to go to donut time, you're very lucky. It was. 1171 01:18:53,320 --> 01:18:56,320 Speaker 1: They actually have really good donuts there. But it later 1172 01:18:56,400 --> 01:18:59,479 Speaker 1: became a tray host tacos, and then it became a 1173 01:18:59,479 --> 01:19:05,719 Speaker 1: tray host donuts, and now it might be nothing. Sue, 1174 01:19:05,840 --> 01:19:07,519 Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't think it's doing very well. 1175 01:19:08,439 --> 01:19:10,160 Speaker 1: I could be wrong, but I just I don't see 1176 01:19:10,200 --> 01:19:13,320 Speaker 1: people there ever. I haven't either. I know, I passed 1177 01:19:13,400 --> 01:19:16,320 Speaker 1: there a couple of days ago. No aim that we 1178 01:19:16,320 --> 01:19:19,200 Speaker 1: were going to watch this movie. I was like, goddamn, 1179 01:19:19,240 --> 01:19:23,800 Speaker 1: seven years. Seven years makes all the difference. I feel 1180 01:19:23,800 --> 01:19:26,720 Speaker 1: like a lot of a lot of stories that portray 1181 01:19:27,040 --> 01:19:32,720 Speaker 1: sex work tend to use that portrayal to remove agency 1182 01:19:32,960 --> 01:19:35,840 Speaker 1: from the characters and to kind of denigrade the experience. 1183 01:19:36,840 --> 01:19:40,640 Speaker 1: And you don't see that happening here. In every situation, 1184 01:19:40,720 --> 01:19:44,000 Speaker 1: the women seem to be very in control of the situation, 1185 01:19:44,040 --> 01:19:46,960 Speaker 1: regardless of whether or not that is always the case 1186 01:19:46,960 --> 01:19:51,320 Speaker 1: in real life with these characters. Like even with with Resumek, 1187 01:19:51,400 --> 01:19:55,800 Speaker 1: you you don't feel like he's exploiting these women, and 1188 01:19:55,960 --> 01:19:58,680 Speaker 1: the one guy who is trying to exploit someone ends up. 1189 01:19:58,760 --> 01:20:01,160 Speaker 1: It ends up, you know, getting this ship kicked out, 1190 01:20:03,360 --> 01:20:07,559 Speaker 1: which is sure karma baby, uh yeah. And and and 1191 01:20:07,600 --> 01:20:10,840 Speaker 1: that the story. I mean, the story covers a lot 1192 01:20:10,960 --> 01:20:14,679 Speaker 1: of ground, but every character gets a full arc, And 1193 01:20:14,920 --> 01:20:18,400 Speaker 1: the strongest bond in the movie is the bond between 1194 01:20:18,560 --> 01:20:22,720 Speaker 1: Cindy and Alexandra. And like, I just it's really fun 1195 01:20:22,800 --> 01:20:27,960 Speaker 1: to see, especially like a female friendship that you see 1196 01:20:28,040 --> 01:20:30,800 Speaker 1: have ups and downs and it's not just like a 1197 01:20:30,880 --> 01:20:34,439 Speaker 1: perfectly written like we're best friend, we always get along, 1198 01:20:34,520 --> 01:20:37,720 Speaker 1: everything's great, la la la. It's like they disagree with 1199 01:20:37,760 --> 01:20:41,120 Speaker 1: each other every other second, but there is such a 1200 01:20:41,200 --> 01:20:46,240 Speaker 1: clear bond. Maya and Kiki have such strong chemistry um 1201 01:20:46,320 --> 01:20:49,720 Speaker 1: as performers that it just like it just holds the 1202 01:20:49,720 --> 01:20:52,280 Speaker 1: movie together in such an amazing way that I cannot 1203 01:20:52,640 --> 01:20:57,800 Speaker 1: picture two different performers in this movie like they make 1204 01:20:57,960 --> 01:21:00,280 Speaker 1: the movie. I mean they were like good friends in 1205 01:21:00,320 --> 01:21:03,840 Speaker 1: real life too, yes, before they were cast yep. Yeah. 1206 01:21:03,880 --> 01:21:06,719 Speaker 1: I feel like the the iPhones got more more airtime 1207 01:21:06,760 --> 01:21:10,200 Speaker 1: than they needed to in this Like people talked about 1208 01:21:10,240 --> 01:21:14,160 Speaker 1: the iPhones more than they talked about myan Kiki is 1209 01:21:14,920 --> 01:21:18,599 Speaker 1: we gotta we gotta turn that around. Another thing kind 1210 01:21:18,600 --> 01:21:22,120 Speaker 1: of piggyback on um, what you were saying just a 1211 01:21:22,120 --> 01:21:25,240 Speaker 1: moment ago, Kai is the way sex work is often 1212 01:21:25,280 --> 01:21:29,920 Speaker 1: portrayed in movies and media. Another thing will do I 1213 01:21:29,960 --> 01:21:32,000 Speaker 1: think it's like a plot device is treated as like 1214 01:21:32,040 --> 01:21:36,240 Speaker 1: a plot device that a character needs to overcome, right that, Um, 1215 01:21:36,320 --> 01:21:39,600 Speaker 1: you know, a life that the characters are trying desperately 1216 01:21:39,640 --> 01:21:42,360 Speaker 1: to escape from. And maybe some of them are, but 1217 01:21:42,439 --> 01:21:44,960 Speaker 1: that isn't really a component of this movie, at least 1218 01:21:45,000 --> 01:21:47,840 Speaker 1: not on the day that we see these characters. But 1219 01:21:47,880 --> 01:21:50,639 Speaker 1: then another thing is, like I think that sex workers 1220 01:21:50,720 --> 01:21:53,559 Speaker 1: will often be characterized in such a way that they 1221 01:21:53,560 --> 01:21:58,320 Speaker 1: are shown as having like no moral compass almost or 1222 01:21:58,400 --> 01:22:02,400 Speaker 1: that they wouldn't care sex means nothing to them, or 1223 01:22:02,520 --> 01:22:06,760 Speaker 1: they don't they can't form real human relationships, so they 1224 01:22:06,880 --> 01:22:09,760 Speaker 1: would never have a fiance or a boyfriend or you know, 1225 01:22:09,800 --> 01:22:13,160 Speaker 1: anything like that. But like, like Cindy, this whole movie 1226 01:22:13,240 --> 01:22:18,479 Speaker 1: is driven by her envy basically of having been cheated on. 1227 01:22:18,960 --> 01:22:22,599 Speaker 1: Just yeah, another thing that humanizes these characters. And this 1228 01:22:22,640 --> 01:22:25,080 Speaker 1: movie also does a thing that's kind of subtle, but 1229 01:22:25,120 --> 01:22:28,800 Speaker 1: every so often we'll hear some of the sex worker 1230 01:22:28,920 --> 01:22:32,719 Speaker 1: characters tell a story like from their childhood. Like there's 1231 01:22:32,760 --> 01:22:35,360 Speaker 1: one little anecdote where Alexandra is like, Oh, I had 1232 01:22:35,360 --> 01:22:37,480 Speaker 1: a Barney doll and then I put it in the bathtub, 1233 01:22:37,920 --> 01:22:41,559 Speaker 1: and then I think maybe she's like the Madame of 1234 01:22:41,640 --> 01:22:44,880 Speaker 1: the party room. But she says something like, yeah, me 1235 01:22:44,920 --> 01:22:50,800 Speaker 1: and my sister would always like I would. Is that 1236 01:22:50,800 --> 01:22:59,240 Speaker 1: what it says? I'm her LinkedIn like like it. Yeah, 1237 01:22:59,280 --> 01:23:02,680 Speaker 1: I don't know exactly what the best terminology is, but 1238 01:23:02,960 --> 01:23:08,439 Speaker 1: I love the embellish credits. Fancy she um. She says 1239 01:23:08,479 --> 01:23:10,680 Speaker 1: something like, yeah, me, my sister would go to these 1240 01:23:10,760 --> 01:23:12,599 Speaker 1: dances when we were kids, and we're supposed to bring 1241 01:23:12,640 --> 01:23:14,160 Speaker 1: a boy, but I could never find boys. What I 1242 01:23:14,160 --> 01:23:15,920 Speaker 1: would take. I had to go dance with my sister 1243 01:23:15,960 --> 01:23:18,320 Speaker 1: and it was just like stories of them like and 1244 01:23:18,320 --> 01:23:20,759 Speaker 1: it's like, yes, like sex workers used to be children. 1245 01:23:20,840 --> 01:23:24,920 Speaker 1: They have interiority, they have feelings, they have jealousy, they 1246 01:23:24,920 --> 01:23:28,240 Speaker 1: have like the whole range of emotions. That's a right, 1247 01:23:28,280 --> 01:23:30,400 Speaker 1: that's the trip. They say, if you're ever kidnapped by 1248 01:23:30,439 --> 01:23:34,280 Speaker 1: a serial killer, you should tell them a story involving 1249 01:23:34,360 --> 01:23:39,919 Speaker 1: your childhood because it's the best way to humanize yourself 1250 01:23:39,960 --> 01:23:44,320 Speaker 1: to a complete stranger, because being a kid supposedly it 1251 01:23:44,360 --> 01:23:48,160 Speaker 1: works much better than screaming let me go. So in 1252 01:23:48,200 --> 01:23:52,439 Speaker 1: this kid, the movie is the kidnapped and we are 1253 01:23:52,520 --> 01:23:58,120 Speaker 1: the serial killers. It's it's true. That's I feel like 1254 01:23:58,520 --> 01:24:03,880 Speaker 1: a common misstep in movies in general, as just um, 1255 01:24:03,920 --> 01:24:08,479 Speaker 1: when you're trying to subvert a narrative. The message is 1256 01:24:08,520 --> 01:24:12,360 Speaker 1: more like I'm not like the other girls, I'm like this. 1257 01:24:12,800 --> 01:24:15,120 Speaker 1: But what this movie does is just say these are 1258 01:24:15,120 --> 01:24:18,360 Speaker 1: these characters. They're like this, They're the movie is not 1259 01:24:18,479 --> 01:24:22,200 Speaker 1: comparing them to other people. They're just showing this is 1260 01:24:22,240 --> 01:24:26,320 Speaker 1: a night in the life of these characters, like take 1261 01:24:26,360 --> 01:24:28,360 Speaker 1: it or leave it, and it seems like everyone wanted 1262 01:24:28,400 --> 01:24:30,519 Speaker 1: to take it. My cat is, be honest, someone's cat. 1263 01:24:31,160 --> 01:24:38,679 Speaker 1: She's so cute. Awflee. I wanted to really quickly touch 1264 01:24:38,720 --> 01:24:43,599 Speaker 1: on Resmique and his family. Resmik is not the central 1265 01:24:43,680 --> 01:24:46,960 Speaker 1: character of the movie, obviously, but I did want to 1266 01:24:47,560 --> 01:24:50,160 Speaker 1: um just bring up because he is. He is an 1267 01:24:50,240 --> 01:24:53,400 Speaker 1: Armenian immigrant who moved to Los Angeles. There is a 1268 01:24:53,479 --> 01:24:57,439 Speaker 1: large Armenian population in Los Angeles, but you never see 1269 01:24:57,479 --> 01:25:00,639 Speaker 1: them represented. And I did a little out of research 1270 01:25:00,720 --> 01:25:03,760 Speaker 1: on this because I mean, you do get this movie 1271 01:25:03,840 --> 01:25:07,200 Speaker 1: does such a great job of giving every character like 1272 01:25:07,680 --> 01:25:12,320 Speaker 1: an interior life. And so for Resmique, he's dealing with 1273 01:25:12,520 --> 01:25:16,320 Speaker 1: his mother in law. You know, he's he's perhaps misrepresenting 1274 01:25:16,680 --> 01:25:18,920 Speaker 1: how he spends his time to his family. We're not 1275 01:25:19,000 --> 01:25:23,240 Speaker 1: exactly sure, um, but we we see that he has 1276 01:25:23,520 --> 01:25:25,639 Speaker 1: a home life. We see that he has his own 1277 01:25:25,680 --> 01:25:29,719 Speaker 1: interior struggles, and that is not something that is usually 1278 01:25:29,800 --> 01:25:34,559 Speaker 1: lent to an Armenian character, because Armenian characters. UM. I 1279 01:25:34,600 --> 01:25:36,960 Speaker 1: did a little research just to kind of confirm. It 1280 01:25:37,040 --> 01:25:39,160 Speaker 1: was like, I don't know how many Armenian characters I've 1281 01:25:39,200 --> 01:25:44,160 Speaker 1: seen on in pop culture really at all, And representation 1282 01:25:44,240 --> 01:25:50,439 Speaker 1: for Armenian people Kardashian's aside is extremely low. Most of 1283 01:25:50,439 --> 01:25:53,719 Speaker 1: the examples you'll find are on TV UM, and they're 1284 01:25:53,800 --> 01:25:58,960 Speaker 1: usually characterized rather violently. UM. You'll see Armenian characters often 1285 01:25:59,000 --> 01:26:02,000 Speaker 1: pop up on like shows like The Sopranos, as like 1286 01:26:02,200 --> 01:26:06,440 Speaker 1: mob bosses or things like that. There's definitely some stock characters. 1287 01:26:07,000 --> 01:26:09,880 Speaker 1: When Armenian characters appear on screen, they appear in a 1288 01:26:09,960 --> 01:26:14,280 Speaker 1: very particular way. And so you know, again Rasmik and 1289 01:26:14,280 --> 01:26:16,680 Speaker 1: his family are not the center of the movie. But 1290 01:26:16,760 --> 01:26:19,880 Speaker 1: I do think it's like many things this movie does, 1291 01:26:20,080 --> 01:26:23,840 Speaker 1: it is a step in the right direction, because I mean, 1292 01:26:23,880 --> 01:26:26,519 Speaker 1: in in movies about l A in general, you are 1293 01:26:26,560 --> 01:26:30,920 Speaker 1: seeing one zip code in a gigantic city, like you're 1294 01:26:30,920 --> 01:26:35,960 Speaker 1: seeing Beverly Hills, usually the Class Warfare zip code, and 1295 01:26:36,840 --> 01:26:40,120 Speaker 1: it is a gigantic and many parts of it are 1296 01:26:40,200 --> 01:26:43,760 Speaker 1: are wonderful and cool, um, but you don't get to 1297 01:26:43,760 --> 01:26:45,400 Speaker 1: see most of those parts. And so I thought it 1298 01:26:45,439 --> 01:26:49,240 Speaker 1: was really nice to see an Armenian family represented, and 1299 01:26:49,360 --> 01:26:54,160 Speaker 1: I sincerely hope that um, that continues to happen moving 1300 01:26:54,240 --> 01:26:57,360 Speaker 1: forward and we get to see all sorts of Armenian characters. 1301 01:26:57,360 --> 01:27:00,400 Speaker 1: I would have loved to see more of Rasm's wife. Um, 1302 01:27:00,640 --> 01:27:05,639 Speaker 1: his wife, No, she does, she does have a name, 1303 01:27:06,280 --> 01:27:09,519 Speaker 1: her name is Eva, but I would have loved to 1304 01:27:09,520 --> 01:27:12,479 Speaker 1: see more of her. And like, so, yeah, that's a 1305 01:27:12,640 --> 01:27:15,519 Speaker 1: yet another thing that this movie does that most movies 1306 01:27:15,520 --> 01:27:19,160 Speaker 1: about Los Angeles do not. I agree, and UH to 1307 01:27:19,280 --> 01:27:22,559 Speaker 1: our Armenian listeners, UM, if you have any other other 1308 01:27:22,600 --> 01:27:27,120 Speaker 1: examples of positive representation you have seen on screen of 1309 01:27:27,720 --> 01:27:30,800 Speaker 1: Armenian people, let us know, because we'd like to check 1310 01:27:30,840 --> 01:27:34,240 Speaker 1: those out and refer us to UH works and characters 1311 01:27:34,280 --> 01:27:37,759 Speaker 1: that that are that are worth covering. We're always listening. 1312 01:27:37,800 --> 01:27:41,120 Speaker 1: But yeah, there there have been some pieces written in 1313 01:27:41,160 --> 01:27:46,559 Speaker 1: the past several years about how extremely limited there's one 1314 01:27:46,720 --> 01:27:51,040 Speaker 1: character on the Sopranos, there's a series of characters on 1315 01:27:51,200 --> 01:27:55,519 Speaker 1: the Shield. Okay, there's a character on Weeds, and then 1316 01:27:55,560 --> 01:28:00,760 Speaker 1: there's the Kardashians. End of list. Um, so we do 1317 01:28:00,840 --> 01:28:09,680 Speaker 1: need more Armenian representation. Yes, Um, does Tangerine pass the 1318 01:28:09,800 --> 01:28:14,680 Speaker 1: Bechdel test for sure? Lots lots and lots between a 1319 01:28:14,680 --> 01:28:18,520 Speaker 1: bunch of difference between all sorts of pairings of characters. 1320 01:28:18,840 --> 01:28:22,800 Speaker 1: And again, the main like, like we've said, the relationship 1321 01:28:22,880 --> 01:28:25,439 Speaker 1: that's really at the core of this movie is the 1322 01:28:25,439 --> 01:28:30,320 Speaker 1: friendship between Cindy and Alexandra. And they talk all the 1323 01:28:30,400 --> 01:28:34,080 Speaker 1: time about I'm sure they're talking about Chester sometimes, but 1324 01:28:34,640 --> 01:28:38,599 Speaker 1: other times they're talking about fish, they're talking about Dinah, 1325 01:28:38,800 --> 01:28:42,920 Speaker 1: there's talking about like Alexander's performance and singing and you know, 1326 01:28:43,040 --> 01:28:45,880 Speaker 1: all all kinds of stuff. Dina and Cindy talk at 1327 01:28:46,000 --> 01:28:52,280 Speaker 1: length as well. Uh. There is conversation between Resumeque's um 1328 01:28:52,600 --> 01:28:56,920 Speaker 1: wife and her mother that is usually concerning him, but 1329 01:28:56,920 --> 01:28:59,519 Speaker 1: there are a few line exchanges that don't and they 1330 01:28:59,560 --> 01:29:02,959 Speaker 1: it can earn their daughter. And there's a lot of 1331 01:29:03,000 --> 01:29:05,200 Speaker 1: This movie passes a whole bunch for sure. All that 1332 01:29:05,320 --> 01:29:08,920 Speaker 1: to say, Yeah, also another rare example of a movie 1333 01:29:08,920 --> 01:29:13,679 Speaker 1: that passes the Vito Russo test passes then a test 1334 01:29:14,240 --> 01:29:17,639 Speaker 1: the Vito Russo test um. It basically examines if there 1335 01:29:17,680 --> 01:29:20,599 Speaker 1: are any queer characters in the movie at all, and 1336 01:29:20,680 --> 01:29:24,759 Speaker 1: if removing them would impact the plot at all. Basically, 1337 01:29:24,760 --> 01:29:27,360 Speaker 1: they have to be essential to the story and they 1338 01:29:27,360 --> 01:29:31,959 Speaker 1: can't be They cannot only be identified by their queerness. 1339 01:29:32,000 --> 01:29:36,000 Speaker 1: They have to have like other characteristics and interiority. So 1340 01:29:37,080 --> 01:29:40,960 Speaker 1: this movie very handily passes that test. Like I said, 1341 01:29:41,000 --> 01:29:44,720 Speaker 1: the DuVernay test um, kind of all of them, it 1342 01:29:44,840 --> 01:29:48,519 Speaker 1: really hits all the marks as far as our nipple 1343 01:29:48,560 --> 01:29:51,760 Speaker 1: scale goes um zero to five nipples based on its 1344 01:29:51,800 --> 01:29:54,920 Speaker 1: representation of women. And also part of me wants to 1345 01:29:55,000 --> 01:30:00,559 Speaker 1: kind of retool our nipple scale a bit, I know, 1346 01:30:00,880 --> 01:30:03,599 Speaker 1: but I think it would behoove us to kind of 1347 01:30:03,640 --> 01:30:05,599 Speaker 1: just reword it or like read to a little bit 1348 01:30:05,640 --> 01:30:09,160 Speaker 1: to it being more about like, how does this movie 1349 01:30:09,240 --> 01:30:15,479 Speaker 1: fair from an intersectional feminist point of view? So either way, 1350 01:30:16,160 --> 01:30:19,599 Speaker 1: looking at it from either version of our nipple scale. Um, 1351 01:30:19,680 --> 01:30:21,720 Speaker 1: it gets pretty top marks. I think I'm going to 1352 01:30:21,760 --> 01:30:24,240 Speaker 1: give a bit of four point five. The fact that 1353 01:30:24,320 --> 01:30:27,280 Speaker 1: it is a what I think is a good step 1354 01:30:27,280 --> 01:30:32,840 Speaker 1: in the right direction of trans representation, black trans representation specifically. Also, 1355 01:30:32,840 --> 01:30:36,559 Speaker 1: we didn't really talk about this, but Cindy is Afro Latina, 1356 01:30:36,720 --> 01:30:40,759 Speaker 1: which is another representation we often don't get in media 1357 01:30:40,800 --> 01:30:44,519 Speaker 1: in general. So I appreciated that aspect of her character 1358 01:30:44,560 --> 01:30:47,439 Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, I think that it handles a lot 1359 01:30:47,439 --> 01:30:52,200 Speaker 1: of things very well, as we've discussed the humanization of 1360 01:30:52,479 --> 01:30:56,400 Speaker 1: sex workers and sex work and the focus on the 1361 01:30:56,479 --> 01:31:00,960 Speaker 1: friendship between Cindy and Alexandra, and um, the fact that 1362 01:31:01,160 --> 01:31:04,840 Speaker 1: a story, again a story about black trans sex workers 1363 01:31:05,200 --> 01:31:08,599 Speaker 1: is fodder for like tragedy porn, and that's not what 1364 01:31:08,640 --> 01:31:12,240 Speaker 1: this movie was at all. It was a funny genres 1365 01:31:12,320 --> 01:31:15,920 Speaker 1: in one. Yeah. I I loved all those things. I 1366 01:31:15,960 --> 01:31:19,920 Speaker 1: love this movie. I'm gonna watch it every Christmas and 1367 01:31:21,280 --> 01:31:25,160 Speaker 1: this is the Christmas movie, right. Yeah, So where it 1368 01:31:25,240 --> 01:31:30,600 Speaker 1: gets taken off for me is again this idea of, well, 1369 01:31:30,680 --> 01:31:32,599 Speaker 1: the only way we're going to be allowed to tell, 1370 01:31:32,680 --> 01:31:35,840 Speaker 1: like learn about trans people or hear their stories is 1371 01:31:35,880 --> 01:31:40,639 Speaker 1: through the lens of sis white men at this moment 1372 01:31:40,760 --> 01:31:44,040 Speaker 1: in history. You know, this should have been a movie 1373 01:31:44,120 --> 01:31:49,800 Speaker 1: made by trans filmmakers. So um step step um. So 1374 01:31:49,880 --> 01:31:53,719 Speaker 1: yeah four point five and I will give I'll split 1375 01:31:53,760 --> 01:32:00,280 Speaker 1: my nipples between Cindy and Alexandra. Yeah, I was going 1376 01:32:00,320 --> 01:32:05,040 Speaker 1: to go, I think a four play to five on 1377 01:32:05,120 --> 01:32:08,960 Speaker 1: this movie. I I feel weird marking it much higher, 1378 01:32:09,080 --> 01:32:13,559 Speaker 1: because while this movie has so many wonderful elements going 1379 01:32:13,640 --> 01:32:17,559 Speaker 1: for it in terms of representation, I do still feel 1380 01:32:17,560 --> 01:32:20,760 Speaker 1: like I always get a bit of like a when 1381 01:32:20,800 --> 01:32:23,519 Speaker 1: you look up the director and you find out, okay, 1382 01:32:23,560 --> 01:32:27,120 Speaker 1: this is and um. Something that bugs me that we 1383 01:32:27,120 --> 01:32:30,200 Speaker 1: we discussed a little bit as well, is that the 1384 01:32:30,280 --> 01:32:34,559 Speaker 1: director goes on to leverage the success of this movie 1385 01:32:34,720 --> 01:32:38,439 Speaker 1: into making The Florida Project, another wonderful movie that does 1386 01:32:38,479 --> 01:32:43,519 Speaker 1: not involve any of the cast from Tangerine, and we 1387 01:32:43,560 --> 01:32:47,719 Speaker 1: haven't seen um really many actors from this movie since, 1388 01:32:48,120 --> 01:32:51,240 Speaker 1: even in that same director's work. And I do feel like, 1389 01:32:51,720 --> 01:32:56,200 Speaker 1: particularly if you are an n y U guy who 1390 01:32:56,560 --> 01:32:58,600 Speaker 1: and I'm not saying that you know he didn't do 1391 01:32:58,680 --> 01:33:00,680 Speaker 1: a great job. I think he did, but I do 1392 01:33:00,800 --> 01:33:05,400 Speaker 1: feel like you you you cannot in good faith use 1393 01:33:05,560 --> 01:33:09,080 Speaker 1: to some extent marginalized community story to launch your own 1394 01:33:09,160 --> 01:33:13,400 Speaker 1: career and then not prioritize lifting everyone with you like 1395 01:33:13,479 --> 01:33:17,160 Speaker 1: that is just you can't. You can't, you can't. Um. 1396 01:33:17,160 --> 01:33:21,000 Speaker 1: Other than that, I do um agree with everything you said, Caitlin. 1397 01:33:21,160 --> 01:33:25,760 Speaker 1: I love the representation of black trans women. I love 1398 01:33:25,840 --> 01:33:29,519 Speaker 1: the friendship. I love that it's a romp. Uh just 1399 01:33:29,720 --> 01:33:33,720 Speaker 1: there's it's so so, so so funny. Um and I 1400 01:33:33,960 --> 01:33:39,120 Speaker 1: credit you know of it to the lead actresses. They're 1401 01:33:39,360 --> 01:33:41,960 Speaker 1: so so good. And and also you know, you get 1402 01:33:42,080 --> 01:33:45,320 Speaker 1: a representation of just a lot of Los Angeles that 1403 01:33:45,320 --> 01:33:48,719 Speaker 1: you normally wouldn't. You have the picture of an Armenian 1404 01:33:48,760 --> 01:33:51,880 Speaker 1: immigrant family, you have their you know, sex worker representation. 1405 01:33:52,640 --> 01:33:57,080 Speaker 1: This movie has got everything. Uh so so yeah, I'll 1406 01:33:57,120 --> 01:34:02,040 Speaker 1: go uh four point too fun five. I will give 1407 01:34:02,520 --> 01:34:07,880 Speaker 1: two to Cindy, two to Alexandra, and one quarter two 1408 01:34:09,120 --> 01:34:12,599 Speaker 1: Rasmics baby. Oh oh. I thought you could say resmics dog, 1409 01:34:12,680 --> 01:34:17,519 Speaker 1: but that's probably I would have given it to the dog. 1410 01:34:17,720 --> 01:34:22,880 Speaker 1: I mean that's just me different people. Yes, how about you? 1411 01:34:23,520 --> 01:34:25,439 Speaker 1: I want to I want to say a four, and 1412 01:34:26,360 --> 01:34:29,479 Speaker 1: I would say the only reason I'm not giving it 1413 01:34:29,560 --> 01:34:31,719 Speaker 1: a five is because of the issues that you guys 1414 01:34:31,720 --> 01:34:34,000 Speaker 1: brought up, but also because there was a little bit 1415 01:34:34,000 --> 01:34:36,479 Speaker 1: of a Tarantino is um going on here where I 1416 01:34:36,520 --> 01:34:40,960 Speaker 1: think that anytime you have a white characters using the 1417 01:34:41,080 --> 01:34:44,960 Speaker 1: N word to display how terrible of a person they are, 1418 01:34:45,800 --> 01:34:48,120 Speaker 1: it should at least there should be a black person 1419 01:34:48,200 --> 01:34:51,680 Speaker 1: directing it or writing it or or something, because by 1420 01:34:51,680 --> 01:34:56,840 Speaker 1: all appearances they got that pass from which was not necessary. 1421 01:34:56,920 --> 01:34:59,880 Speaker 1: They were terrible enough as it. As it went right, 1422 01:35:00,920 --> 01:35:03,120 Speaker 1: you could replace the N word with a monster energy 1423 01:35:03,160 --> 01:35:05,560 Speaker 1: drink in the hand, and you know, we get the 1424 01:35:05,600 --> 01:35:10,200 Speaker 1: same impression, and we get it. We get it. Yeah, well, Kai, 1425 01:35:10,320 --> 01:35:12,400 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us, Thanks for having 1426 01:35:12,439 --> 01:35:15,360 Speaker 1: me this fun. Yeah, good to good to see you. 1427 01:35:15,439 --> 01:35:19,839 Speaker 1: It's been a while. Um, Where can people follow your stuff? 1428 01:35:19,920 --> 01:35:23,800 Speaker 1: Check out your podcast? You guys can listen to my 1429 01:35:23,880 --> 01:35:27,280 Speaker 1: podcast anywhere podcasts are found. It's called Women Who Kill. 1430 01:35:27,560 --> 01:35:31,120 Speaker 1: It is a true crime comedy podcast and the focus 1431 01:35:31,120 --> 01:35:35,120 Speaker 1: of each episode is a lady who is a murderer, 1432 01:35:35,240 --> 01:35:37,519 Speaker 1: so we don't talk about any dudes who rape and 1433 01:35:37,600 --> 01:35:42,400 Speaker 1: murder unless they're part of a couple, which it's only 1434 01:35:42,400 --> 01:35:45,320 Speaker 1: happened a couple of times. You can also find me 1435 01:35:45,400 --> 01:35:48,640 Speaker 1: on Twitter and Instagram at Kai Choice. That's k A. 1436 01:35:48,800 --> 01:35:53,320 Speaker 1: I c H O y C E and uh, I 1437 01:35:53,360 --> 01:35:56,400 Speaker 1: mean that's about it. We're not doing live shows these days. 1438 01:35:56,680 --> 01:35:59,000 Speaker 1: Maybe one day we'll be back to it, but otherwise 1439 01:35:59,040 --> 01:36:00,680 Speaker 1: you can catch me on podcast. You can catch me 1440 01:36:00,920 --> 01:36:06,000 Speaker 1: being highly inappropriate on social media. I really thoroughly enjoy 1441 01:36:06,080 --> 01:36:09,080 Speaker 1: your social media presence, if I may say thank you. 1442 01:36:09,280 --> 01:36:11,840 Speaker 1: Speaking of social media, you can follow us on Twitter 1443 01:36:11,880 --> 01:36:16,160 Speaker 1: and Instagram at bachtel Cast. We've got a Patreon ak Matreon. 1444 01:36:16,240 --> 01:36:19,120 Speaker 1: It's five dollars a month. It gets you to bonus episodes, 1445 01:36:19,160 --> 01:36:24,160 Speaker 1: plus our entire back catalog of all of our bonus episodes. 1446 01:36:24,400 --> 01:36:28,360 Speaker 1: And um, you guys gotta start using protagonist. By the way, 1447 01:36:28,640 --> 01:36:33,880 Speaker 1: Protagonia it in. You can have it. Thanks, thanks for 1448 01:36:33,920 --> 01:36:36,160 Speaker 1: tuning in, See you next time. Hi,