WEBVTT - The High-Stakes Quest to Reinvent Cement 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:25.996 Pushkin. You know it's amazing cement. Cement doesn't burn or 0:00:26.116 --> 0:00:31.036 rust or rot. Cement lasts for thousands of years. See 0:00:31.356 --> 0:00:35.716 Roman aqueducts, Mayan temples, and you can use cement to 0:00:35.716 --> 0:00:40.076 build almost anything. Cement is so amazing that every year 0:00:40.396 --> 0:00:45.556 humanity makes four billion metric tons of it. That is roughly, 0:00:45.836 --> 0:00:49.116 very roughly a thousand pounds of cement for every man, 0:00:49.236 --> 0:00:53.596 woman and child on planet Earth every year. Now, for 0:00:53.636 --> 0:00:59.596 the bad news, making cement is wildly, almost absurdly carbon intensive. 0:01:00.236 --> 0:01:03.556 We don't hear so much about this. Cement is generally 0:01:03.796 --> 0:01:06.596 not what we talk about when we talk about climate change. 0:01:06.956 --> 0:01:10.076 But in order to solve climate change, we're going to 0:01:10.156 --> 0:01:13.036 have to figure out a better way to make cement. 0:01:19.236 --> 0:01:21.596 I'm Jacob Goldstein and this is What's Your Problem, the 0:01:21.636 --> 0:01:23.956 show where I talk to people who are trying to 0:01:23.996 --> 0:01:28.476 make technological progress. My guest today is Leah Ellis. She's 0:01:28.556 --> 0:01:32.636 the co founder and CEO of Sublime Systems. Lea's problem 0:01:32.716 --> 0:01:37.276 is this, how can you make cement without emitting carbon dioxide? 0:01:37.756 --> 0:01:40.516 Before she got into cement, Lea was in grad school 0:01:40.596 --> 0:01:44.276 working on lithium ion batteries, and as happens to a 0:01:44.276 --> 0:01:47.676 lot of grad students. She had this kind of deflating 0:01:47.756 --> 0:01:49.436 conversation with her advisor. 0:01:51.556 --> 0:01:53.876 One of my last you know, walk and talks with 0:01:53.956 --> 0:01:57.916 my PhD supervisor is like, you know, what's next in batteries? 0:01:58.356 --> 0:02:01.556 And he was like, oh, it'll take you know, tens 0:02:01.556 --> 0:02:04.196 of thousands of people ten years to get to the 0:02:04.236 --> 0:02:05.516 next level. 0:02:05.916 --> 0:02:06.916 But I was like, oh. 0:02:06.796 --> 0:02:09.356 Damn, Like I don't want to be like one of 0:02:09.396 --> 0:02:11.876 ten thousand people working for ten years. 0:02:12.116 --> 0:02:17.076 So you realize that you sort of missed the kind 0:02:17.076 --> 0:02:20.556 of innovation glory days for batteries perhaps, So what do 0:02:20.556 --> 0:02:20.916 you do? 0:02:21.756 --> 0:02:25.796 Well? I wanted to continue working with inventors, so I 0:02:25.876 --> 0:02:29.956 got a Canadian government fellowship to go anywhere work with anyone, 0:02:29.996 --> 0:02:33.156 and I chose to come to Mit to work with 0:02:33.276 --> 0:02:36.796 Professor Yetmingchek. And it was actually Yet's idea to work 0:02:36.836 --> 0:02:39.676 on cement. And it wouldn't have been something that I 0:02:39.716 --> 0:02:45.596 would have ever had the audacity to jump fields like that. 0:02:46.276 --> 0:02:48.116 So how did that idea come up? 0:02:49.036 --> 0:02:53.196 Well, so Yet a year before, in twenty seventeen, had 0:02:53.236 --> 0:02:56.716 spun out Form Energy, which is a long duration energy 0:02:56.756 --> 0:03:00.036 storage company, and he had his eye on these trends, 0:03:00.076 --> 0:03:03.796 you know, renewable electricity is becoming the cheapest form of electricity, 0:03:03.876 --> 0:03:07.716 especially if it's intermittent, and you know, the utility sector 0:03:07.796 --> 0:03:11.036 being thirty percent of house gas emissions, like, thought's going 0:03:11.076 --> 0:03:14.116 to go to zero if we'ever going to achieve net zero, 0:03:14.276 --> 0:03:16.356 and then you know what what would happen as a 0:03:16.436 --> 0:03:19.116 consequence of that is that you have all of this 0:03:19.196 --> 0:03:22.596 renewable capacity that then you then you can use to 0:03:22.636 --> 0:03:26.356 decarbonise the next largest tranches of emissions, so cement and 0:03:26.396 --> 0:03:30.076 steel being each about eight percent of global CO two emissions. 0:03:31.116 --> 0:03:33.356 The thinking was like, you know, how do you decarbonise 0:03:33.436 --> 0:03:37.156 cement assuming you are in a world with abundant and 0:03:37.236 --> 0:03:39.956 relatively cheap renewable electrons. 0:03:39.516 --> 0:03:43.916 So super top down, super like macro big picture, not like, oh, 0:03:43.956 --> 0:03:46.396 I've got this little technical idea, how can we build 0:03:46.396 --> 0:03:48.836 it up? But it's like, Okay, I'm I'm looking at 0:03:48.836 --> 0:03:52.196 the whole planet for the next thirty years, and I 0:03:52.316 --> 0:03:56.156 see that like making steel and cement is like a 0:03:56.236 --> 0:03:58.196 problem we have to solve, and we're gonna have a 0:03:58.236 --> 0:04:00.236 lot of intermittent clean energy. 0:04:00.796 --> 0:04:02.276 What do you got exactly? 0:04:02.756 --> 0:04:05.276 And so he mentioned cement to you, what do you 0:04:05.356 --> 0:04:08.196 know about cement. When he mentioned cement. 0:04:09.476 --> 0:04:12.756 Well, I assume that cement and concrete were the same thing. 0:04:12.836 --> 0:04:15.596 I mean, that was my level of understanding at the time. 0:04:15.636 --> 0:04:19.276 But I did know that cement was, you know, a 0:04:19.396 --> 0:04:25.436 much larger tranch of COTO emissions than you know, lithium 0:04:25.476 --> 0:04:27.116 ion batteries could ever address. 0:04:27.796 --> 0:04:29.596 And so just to be clear, when you say you 0:04:29.636 --> 0:04:33.156 assume that cement and concrete were the same, you're saying 0:04:33.156 --> 0:04:35.556 you didn't know anything. Because that's one that's always been 0:04:35.596 --> 0:04:38.396 hard for me. I memorized it in preparing for this interview. 0:04:38.436 --> 0:04:40.316 It's one thing I'll definitely get out of this AMA. 0:04:40.396 --> 0:04:43.196 Yeah, and you know sometimes I get those two words 0:04:43.516 --> 0:04:44.796 mixed up even now. 0:04:45.116 --> 0:04:47.196 So what's the difference just for everybody? 0:04:47.196 --> 0:04:51.236 So, cement is the glue, it's rock glue, and concrete 0:04:51.436 --> 0:04:55.076 is the glue plus aggregate. So cement is the glue 0:04:55.076 --> 0:04:57.156 that holds the rocks together to meet concrete. 0:04:57.956 --> 0:05:00.836 Right, So all the things around us are built out 0:05:00.876 --> 0:05:04.196 of concrete, and cement is sort of the essential ingredient 0:05:04.716 --> 0:05:05.316 in concrete. 0:05:05.436 --> 0:05:08.876 That's right, It's about fifteen percent of the concrete. 0:05:09.116 --> 0:05:10.956 How do you start learning about cement? 0:05:11.996 --> 0:05:15.076 Well, I first started on Wikipedia. It's one of my 0:05:15.156 --> 0:05:17.436 favorite always to spend time. 0:05:17.596 --> 0:05:19.036 So it was quite delightful. 0:05:20.476 --> 0:05:23.356 And from Wikipedia, you know, spent a lot of time 0:05:23.396 --> 0:05:28.316 at the library, you know, in textbooks and then going 0:05:28.316 --> 0:05:32.076 from textbooks to research articles and. 0:05:33.596 --> 0:05:36.036 Yeah, it's been really really fun. 0:05:36.116 --> 0:05:39.436 Honestly, lithium ion batteries are art cool and magical, but 0:05:40.076 --> 0:05:43.236 cement is is awesome. I think if you're a material scientist, 0:05:43.276 --> 0:05:46.316 if you're a nerd, there's like a very deep and 0:05:46.396 --> 0:05:48.396 exciting rabbit hole that you can go down to you 0:05:48.436 --> 0:05:50.276 once you start getting stoked about cement. 0:05:50.676 --> 0:05:53.436 Well, let's get stoked about cement. So first of all, 0:05:53.836 --> 0:06:01.076 it's extraordinarily ubiquitous, right, like so ubiquitous you don't even 0:06:01.116 --> 0:06:03.356 notice it. I was actually listening to an interview with 0:06:03.436 --> 0:06:06.836 you a couple of weeks ago, and I happened to 0:06:06.836 --> 0:06:09.116 be at the airport, and I realized as I was listening, 0:06:09.276 --> 0:06:13.716 like I was of course standing on on cement on 0:06:13.796 --> 0:06:16.276 concrete right on the sidewalk, but also there were like 0:06:16.396 --> 0:06:19.276 I was it was like two decks, you know, arrivals 0:06:19.276 --> 0:06:22.516 and departures, and so there were these like columns made 0:06:22.516 --> 0:06:26.036 out of concrete, and then there was concrete over my head. 0:06:26.076 --> 0:06:30.476 So I was essentially like encased in cement in concrete 0:06:31.516 --> 0:06:33.756 as I was listening to it. So that was good. 0:06:33.796 --> 0:06:35.436 That was that was getting me in the right in 0:06:35.476 --> 0:06:36.756 the right mood for this interview. 0:06:36.956 --> 0:06:40.556 Yeah, once you see it, you really can't unsee it, 0:06:41.596 --> 0:06:44.276 and it's it's really fun. And as I've gotten into 0:06:44.316 --> 0:06:48.316 cement chemistry and durability and testing every sort of feature 0:06:48.356 --> 0:06:50.716 in the cement you look at you can see weathering, 0:06:50.796 --> 0:06:54.236 you can see freeze thought damage, you can see alkali 0:06:54.316 --> 0:06:57.676 silica reaction, you can see rebark corrosion, and it really 0:06:57.756 --> 0:07:00.676 makes uh, you know, a walk down the concrete jungle 0:07:00.796 --> 0:07:05.036 a little bit more intellectually stimulating than it was before. 0:07:05.436 --> 0:07:09.116 So certainly there's a lot of it. Certainly it's important. 0:07:09.276 --> 0:07:12.476 And so let's talk about how cement is made today. 0:07:12.556 --> 0:07:15.756 This is not what you're doing, but sort of the 0:07:15.796 --> 0:07:19.676 thing you're trying to improve upon. Right, Portland cement is 0:07:19.716 --> 0:07:23.676 this phrase that it's basically a technique for making cement. Right, 0:07:23.676 --> 0:07:25.556 it's a product, but it's also a way of making 0:07:25.596 --> 0:07:27.556 the product that's been around for what more than one 0:07:27.596 --> 0:07:32.716 hundred years? So briefly, what is Portland cement? How do 0:07:32.716 --> 0:07:33.756 you make it? What do you start with. 0:07:34.196 --> 0:07:37.876 Yeah, Portland cement is a specific formulation of cement that 0:07:37.996 --> 0:07:40.836 has been around one hundred and ninety nine years. So 0:07:40.956 --> 0:07:45.316 Portland cement will celebrate its two hundredth birthday this year 0:07:45.356 --> 0:07:46.436 on October fourth. 0:07:46.516 --> 0:07:47.996 That's two hundred years since, and. 0:07:47.956 --> 0:07:49.756 You're trying to make sure it doesn't make it to 0:07:49.996 --> 0:07:50.796 two hundred. 0:07:50.556 --> 0:07:54.396 And fifty, right, exactly. Yeah. 0:07:55.116 --> 0:07:58.676 So the way Portland cement is made, you take limestone 0:07:58.836 --> 0:08:01.596 as the calcium source, and then you will also need 0:08:01.636 --> 0:08:06.236 the right ratios of calcium to silica, alumina and iron. 0:08:06.596 --> 0:08:10.396 So that Portland cement recipe is about getting those ratios right. 0:08:10.476 --> 0:08:13.036 But the dominant ingredient is limestone. 0:08:13.356 --> 0:08:15.716 So limestone is the key ingredient. The thing we want 0:08:15.796 --> 0:08:21.116 in the limestone is the calcium. But is the calcium 0:08:21.156 --> 0:08:23.676 bound with carbon? Is that our fundamental problem? 0:08:23.916 --> 0:08:24.436 That's right. 0:08:24.476 --> 0:08:28.636 So the limestone is a calcium oxide bound to CO 0:08:28.916 --> 0:08:32.556 two and those are chemically bound very strongly, which makes 0:08:32.596 --> 0:08:33.996 the calcium inert. 0:08:34.396 --> 0:08:36.836 And the process of making cement is you want to 0:08:37.156 --> 0:08:40.036 essentially isolate the calcium, I mean, among other things, but 0:08:40.076 --> 0:08:41.876 a key piece of the process is that, right. 0:08:42.076 --> 0:08:42.356 Yeah. 0:08:42.396 --> 0:08:45.756 Okay, So in making Portland cement, how does that. 0:08:45.716 --> 0:08:49.476 Happen by heating it to the point where that bond 0:08:49.596 --> 0:08:53.556 breaks and CO two, you know, goes as a gas 0:08:53.756 --> 0:08:57.836 and then you get this solid solid gas separation where 0:08:57.836 --> 0:09:01.036 you have solid calcium oxide and gashous CO two. 0:09:01.636 --> 0:09:04.196 Okay, And so then that CO two just goes off 0:09:04.196 --> 0:09:06.236 into the atmosphere, go often to the chimney. 0:09:06.356 --> 0:09:09.836 Yeah, it's mixed with the combustion emissions and goes into 0:09:09.876 --> 0:09:10.196 the air. 0:09:10.436 --> 0:09:13.556 Okay. So it's just it's just more carbon emissions. It's bad. 0:09:13.596 --> 0:09:16.396 It's the thing we're trying to get rid of on 0:09:16.476 --> 0:09:17.116 the planet. 0:09:17.316 --> 0:09:20.276 Yeah, that's right. Mean it's causing global warming. 0:09:20.796 --> 0:09:24.196 Okay. So you've broken down the limestone and emitted a 0:09:24.236 --> 0:09:28.396 bunch of CO two in so doing, but you're not 0:09:28.436 --> 0:09:30.276 done yet, right, what has to happen next. 0:09:30.596 --> 0:09:34.436 So once that's broken down, it's heated further to fourteen 0:09:34.516 --> 0:09:35.796 hundred degrees celsius. 0:09:36.516 --> 0:09:38.956 So it's getting wildly hot. I mean, is the rock 0:09:39.036 --> 0:09:42.156 actually like melting? Does it look lava ish if you 0:09:42.196 --> 0:09:42.676 look at it? 0:09:42.876 --> 0:09:43.076 Yeah? 0:09:43.116 --> 0:09:47.036 And I actually have had the distinct privilege of looking 0:09:47.316 --> 0:09:50.756 down the center of a Portland cement kiln. There there's 0:09:50.836 --> 0:09:53.596 like a tiny hole under the fuel injection port, you 0:09:53.676 --> 0:09:57.796 put on a welding mask. It's of course extremely hot, 0:09:58.236 --> 0:10:02.676 and you can peer down and see the rotary kiln going. 0:10:02.716 --> 0:10:05.316 You can see the flame coming right over your head 0:10:05.356 --> 0:10:07.436 through that fuel injection port, and you can see the 0:10:07.436 --> 0:10:12.476 molten rock rolling towards you, like red red, glowing hot. 0:10:12.996 --> 0:10:18.276 And so so, in addition to the carbon dioxide emitted 0:10:18.316 --> 0:10:24.076 directly from the limestone in the first stage, presumably people 0:10:24.076 --> 0:10:27.236 are burning a lot of fossil fuels in order to 0:10:27.676 --> 0:10:33.116 make this rock lava hot in this stage, thereby emitting 0:10:33.116 --> 0:10:34.836 more carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. 0:10:35.036 --> 0:10:35.556 That's right. 0:10:35.636 --> 0:10:39.716 And so besides, every Portland cement kiln you're going to see, 0:10:40.476 --> 0:10:43.556 you know, a small hill of coal, and it's normally 0:10:44.436 --> 0:10:47.556 bitchumen is coal, though there's often a blend of fuels 0:10:47.676 --> 0:10:51.636 used to heat up the kiln to this enormous temperature. 0:10:51.636 --> 0:10:55.396 But bitchumen is cool. Is what's necessary to get this 0:10:55.476 --> 0:11:00.796 like highly luminous flame that creates the ideal temperatures. 0:11:01.036 --> 0:11:03.556 So you're not only burning fossil fuels, you're burning coal, 0:11:03.596 --> 0:11:09.036 which is a particularly dirty, particularly carbon intensive fossil fuel. 0:11:09.196 --> 0:11:09.596 That's right. 0:11:09.916 --> 0:11:13.196 Yeah, And we make a ton of cement, so like cement. 0:11:13.316 --> 0:11:17.236 It's like very carbon intensive, emits a lot of carbon 0:11:17.276 --> 0:11:20.356 into the atmosphere, and we need it, and we make 0:11:21.836 --> 0:11:24.836 literally what order of magnitude how many tons? 0:11:25.036 --> 0:11:27.196 Yeah, about four billion tons a year. 0:11:27.276 --> 0:11:32.196 Four billion tons a year. And so overall, when you 0:11:32.876 --> 0:11:38.196 take it all together, what percent of human carbon emissions 0:11:38.236 --> 0:11:40.516 are from making cement? 0:11:43.516 --> 0:11:46.796 So it's eight percent of global CO two missions from cement. 0:11:46.996 --> 0:11:48.556 This is a big problem, and we don't know how 0:11:48.596 --> 0:11:49.156 to fix. 0:11:48.956 --> 0:11:49.716 It, that's right. 0:11:49.836 --> 0:11:53.836 So there are incremental approaches that chip away at the problem, 0:11:53.916 --> 0:11:56.716 like using alternative fuels. You can swap out some of 0:11:56.756 --> 0:12:01.796 the coal with natural gas or with burning tires. You 0:12:01.836 --> 0:12:06.596 can use supplementary sumuntitious materials, so some antigious materials that 0:12:06.636 --> 0:12:09.396 are less performant, you can blend them in up to 0:12:09.436 --> 0:12:13.236 thirty even up to fifty percent to to you know, 0:12:13.316 --> 0:12:18.036 reduce the emissions. But getting to zero is very difficult, 0:12:18.316 --> 0:12:21.476 if not impossible, with things that are exist today. 0:12:22.076 --> 0:12:25.076 So let's talk about that, right you You are not 0:12:25.316 --> 0:12:30.236 going for an incremental gain here, you're saying, okay, let's 0:12:30.276 --> 0:12:32.516 start from zero and let's figure out a whole new 0:12:32.556 --> 0:12:36.836 way to make cement that doesn't emit any carbon dioxide 0:12:36.916 --> 0:12:39.956 and you decide that instead of using coal, you're gonna 0:12:40.036 --> 0:12:41.916 use electricity, right. 0:12:42.396 --> 0:12:42.916 That's right. 0:12:43.076 --> 0:12:48.276 So being battery scientists and electric chemists, you know, we've 0:12:48.276 --> 0:12:50.756 got the hammer and everything looks like a nail, right, 0:12:50.836 --> 0:12:55.836 so we can's electricity, but we wanted to look beyond it. 0:12:55.956 --> 0:12:58.156 Just the most obvious way, which is like to use 0:12:58.196 --> 0:13:02.196 an electric kiln for heating, that's got as challenges. I 0:13:02.196 --> 0:13:03.996 mean that one's the obvious way. If it was easy, 0:13:04.036 --> 0:13:07.316 people would already have done it. There's various challenges with 0:13:07.356 --> 0:13:10.596 efficiency and material so we had to find another path. 0:13:11.116 --> 0:13:16.876 And what we derived after many brainstorming sessions and investigating 0:13:16.876 --> 0:13:20.916 different options, was this way of breaking down the minerals 0:13:21.156 --> 0:13:26.036 using electric chemistry instead of using heat. So by bypassing 0:13:26.076 --> 0:13:30.596 the heating also allowed us to be more amenable with 0:13:30.676 --> 0:13:34.836 the use of intermittent renewable electricity, because of course heating 0:13:35.356 --> 0:13:38.556 requires base load electricity. It takes days to heat up 0:13:38.556 --> 0:13:43.316 a kiln to those high temperatures, and so it doesn't 0:13:43.356 --> 0:13:45.796 allow you to be rampable, it doesn't allow you to 0:13:46.516 --> 0:13:47.876 be load following. 0:13:47.676 --> 0:13:51.116 Right, because that a regional kind of marching orders. The 0:13:51.156 --> 0:13:54.476 original big idea was like we're going to have extraordinary 0:13:54.756 --> 0:13:59.596 abundance of renewable energy, but for a while at least, 0:13:59.636 --> 0:14:01.396 it's going to be intermittent. The sun's going to shine, 0:14:01.396 --> 0:14:03.356 then the sun's going to go down, and so you 0:14:03.356 --> 0:14:06.516 you don't want to build a system that requires constant 0:14:07.356 --> 0:14:09.836 high inputs of power over days and days, because that 0:14:09.836 --> 0:14:12.236 doesn't fit the kind of worldview you're building for. 0:14:12.436 --> 0:14:14.316 Well, yeah, that's right. But also you can get a 0:14:14.396 --> 0:14:17.956 cost advantage. You can get the cheapest electricity if you 0:14:17.996 --> 0:14:20.196 can take it whenever it's available. 0:14:20.396 --> 0:14:21.756 So okay, so go on. 0:14:22.676 --> 0:14:26.316 The next thing you do is technoeconomic modeling. So start modeling, 0:14:26.356 --> 0:14:28.196 like what does it cost to do this, what are 0:14:28.236 --> 0:14:32.916 the inputs, what are the outputs, what's the you know, 0:14:33.556 --> 0:14:37.036 what's the capex, what's the opax, what's the labor, et cetera. 0:14:37.396 --> 0:14:41.836 Getting quotes from vendors for specific pieces of equipment, getting 0:14:41.916 --> 0:14:46.876 actual data from the pilot using actual numbers, and so 0:14:46.996 --> 0:14:51.876 now it's like this, you know, multi tab quilt sized spreadsheete. 0:14:52.036 --> 0:14:55.636 But getting that going was the first step, because you know, 0:14:55.796 --> 0:14:59.076 that's what allows you to pivot quickly to see the 0:14:59.076 --> 0:15:02.836 weaknesses of your approach. And we continue doing that, and 0:15:02.876 --> 0:15:06.316 we still continue to do that to refine different elements 0:15:06.356 --> 0:15:07.116 of our process. 0:15:09.796 --> 0:15:12.596 This process Leah is talking about, it's a whole new 0:15:12.636 --> 0:15:16.076 way of making cement. It doesn't involve heat at all, 0:15:16.516 --> 0:15:20.316 and Lea hopes it will be this turning point in 0:15:20.356 --> 0:15:24.596 the millennia long history of the way human beings make cement. 0:15:25.596 --> 0:15:37.436 In a minute, she explains how it works. So you've 0:15:37.436 --> 0:15:40.676 come up with this new process. You're still refining it, 0:15:40.716 --> 0:15:44.116 trying to make it more efficient, reliable, whatever, But how 0:15:44.116 --> 0:15:44.716 does it work? 0:15:45.116 --> 0:15:51.716 Yeah, Basically we're breaking down the inert minerals using chemistry 0:15:51.716 --> 0:15:54.996 and electric chemistry instead of using heat. So you know, 0:15:55.996 --> 0:15:59.276 the heart of our system, or maybe call it the lungs, 0:15:59.356 --> 0:16:04.036 is this electrochemical reactor that takes neutral pach water and 0:16:04.156 --> 0:16:04.956 splits it. 0:16:04.876 --> 0:16:06.156 Into acid and base. 0:16:06.276 --> 0:16:08.916 So there's a pH gradient that forms between the two 0:16:09.116 --> 0:16:15.916 electrodes and that's used to dissolve calcium and other minerals 0:16:15.996 --> 0:16:20.036 from rocks. So actually the electrochemical process we use since 0:16:20.076 --> 0:16:23.796 we're digesting the rocks instead of cooking them, we don't 0:16:23.836 --> 0:16:28.676 have to use limestone, so we're using calcium silicate minerals 0:16:28.716 --> 0:16:33.796 and industrial wastes and basically taking the rock and then 0:16:34.596 --> 0:16:37.836 splitting it into its mineral components, drying all those off 0:16:37.836 --> 0:16:42.356 into free flowing powders, and then reassembling a cement powder 0:16:42.476 --> 0:16:45.956 with the right ratios of all of these elements to 0:16:46.036 --> 0:16:48.276 make a high performance cement. 0:16:49.396 --> 0:16:56.356 And so you basically use electricity to turn water a 0:16:56.476 --> 0:16:59.716 va of water into a place where like part of 0:16:59.716 --> 0:17:02.076 the water is somewhat acidic and part of the water 0:17:02.156 --> 0:17:05.356 is somewhat basic. And then you put the rocks into 0:17:05.396 --> 0:17:08.556 that water, and the acidic parts of the water do 0:17:08.636 --> 0:17:10.196 some of the words, and the basic parts of the 0:17:10.196 --> 0:17:12.396 water do some of the work, and you're wet, and 0:17:12.396 --> 0:17:14.596 you wind up with the minerals you need at a 0:17:14.876 --> 0:17:15.796 price you can afford. 0:17:15.996 --> 0:17:18.956 Yeah, exactly. You said it very well, So I. 0:17:18.956 --> 0:17:23.076 Know you start with the idea, and I've heard you 0:17:23.116 --> 0:17:27.036 say that. Initially you made one gram of cement, which 0:17:27.076 --> 0:17:29.556 is like you described it as like the size of 0:17:29.596 --> 0:17:32.636 an almond, which is particularly amazing given how heavy and 0:17:32.756 --> 0:17:35.516 big cement is. And then you did a kilogram. Where 0:17:35.556 --> 0:17:36.236 are you now? 0:17:37.236 --> 0:17:39.796 We came out of stealth about a year ago after 0:17:39.876 --> 0:17:42.796 we built our pilot plant, which was initially sized to 0:17:42.796 --> 0:17:46.436 produce one hundred tons a year. In the past year, 0:17:46.436 --> 0:17:51.276 We've had about seven thousand hours of uptime. We've scaled 0:17:51.276 --> 0:17:53.476 it up to two hundred and fifty tons per year. 0:17:54.316 --> 0:17:58.596 We've produced tons of cement and have ran it continuously 0:17:58.676 --> 0:18:01.636 under dozens of conditions to you know, optimize it. 0:18:02.436 --> 0:18:07.036 And that cement you've produced is it is it out 0:18:07.036 --> 0:18:09.196 in the world. Is it just like practice cement? Is 0:18:09.236 --> 0:18:11.756 it real cement? You know, holding up a building somewhere 0:18:11.796 --> 0:18:12.276 or something? 0:18:12.356 --> 0:18:14.956 It is actually holding up a building somewhere. So we 0:18:14.996 --> 0:18:19.116 did our first field poor about two weeks ago. 0:18:19.276 --> 0:18:22.396 Oh congratulations, Yeah, I like that. For field poor. Where 0:18:22.436 --> 0:18:23.116 was the field poor? 0:18:23.316 --> 0:18:25.276 It was in the Boston area and a piece of 0:18:25.676 --> 0:18:28.676 in a in a commercial construction project. It was going 0:18:28.756 --> 0:18:33.036 underneath the construction. It's typically what's called called a mud slab. 0:18:33.596 --> 0:18:35.716 So yeah, so. 0:18:35.716 --> 0:18:39.516 That's what you're doing. Now, what have you not figured 0:18:39.556 --> 0:18:42.476 out yet? Like, what has to happen for you to 0:18:42.516 --> 0:18:47.516 get from here to being a real business selling lots 0:18:47.516 --> 0:18:51.436 of cement whatever all over the world or whatever for 0:18:51.716 --> 0:18:52.876 you to be a real business, for you to be 0:18:52.916 --> 0:18:55.996 a real business with revenue and your cement just you 0:18:56.036 --> 0:18:57.956 want your cubmit to be boring, right, you want your 0:18:58.316 --> 0:19:00.956 to be just like whatever boring again. 0:19:01.836 --> 0:19:06.436 Yeah, well, there are certain things we figured out. We 0:19:06.476 --> 0:19:09.436 figured out the product, we figured out the pros us. 0:19:09.476 --> 0:19:12.156 But where we are today is still Even though I'm 0:19:12.396 --> 0:19:14.316 so proud of taking this from a gram to two 0:19:14.396 --> 0:19:18.436 hundred and fifty tons in four years, it's still a 0:19:18.516 --> 0:19:21.476 drop in the ocean. I mean, we affectionately call our 0:19:21.516 --> 0:19:24.036 pilot plant this cement plant for ants. 0:19:25.156 --> 0:19:27.236 It has to be at least three times. 0:19:26.876 --> 0:19:29.796 Bigger than this, but we have to get to a 0:19:29.836 --> 0:19:30.916 million tons per year. 0:19:31.076 --> 0:19:32.876 We're going to compete on cost with. 0:19:32.916 --> 0:19:37.676 Today's Portland cement, and so going from pilot scale to 0:19:37.956 --> 0:19:41.676 full scale, where full scale for cement is just a 0:19:41.716 --> 0:19:46.156 titanic colossal size, our next step is to build a 0:19:46.236 --> 0:19:50.436 minimum viable commercial scale plant. So we refer to this 0:19:50.476 --> 0:19:54.596 as our kiloton plant. We have a site secured in 0:19:54.676 --> 0:19:58.236 Holy Oak, Massachusetts, on the site of an old paper mill, 0:19:58.276 --> 0:20:02.076 which we are in the process of removing this ancient 0:20:02.116 --> 0:20:05.876 paper mill, but all the remnants of what makes this 0:20:05.996 --> 0:20:09.436 a really exciting industrial. 0:20:09.116 --> 0:20:11.836 Site still exists. So a hydro electric. 0:20:11.556 --> 0:20:17.556 Dam, ready, access to rail, ready access to a workforce, 0:20:17.716 --> 0:20:22.676 you know, industrial permits exist and so our next our 0:20:22.716 --> 0:20:25.276 next step is to wrap up the pilot phase in 0:20:25.316 --> 0:20:31.316 the coming months, do do the engineering and start procuring 0:20:31.396 --> 0:20:35.316 long lead equipment so that we can start building our plant. 0:20:35.356 --> 0:20:37.556 And so that is the work that you know, my 0:20:37.676 --> 0:20:40.316 colleagues in the office are busy doing right now. 0:20:41.236 --> 0:20:45.916 So these are very like practical heavy industry, could be 0:20:46.036 --> 0:20:52.356 any kind of a big factory concerns. Do you still 0:20:52.516 --> 0:20:56.956 have engineering or technical problems to solve as well, or 0:20:56.996 --> 0:20:58.636 do you feel like you've got it down? 0:20:59.916 --> 0:21:02.156 Well both, I do feel like I've got it down. 0:21:02.196 --> 0:21:06.436 I'd say, you know, the problems never stop and also 0:21:06.476 --> 0:21:10.276 the improvements never stop. So in the spirit of swift 0:21:10.276 --> 0:21:12.676 and massive, we move as quickly as we can to 0:21:12.836 --> 0:21:15.796 move from one one degree of scale to the next. 0:21:16.236 --> 0:21:18.596 But there's you know, I have to say, I have 0:21:18.716 --> 0:21:21.636 the distinct privilege of working with some of the smartest 0:21:21.636 --> 0:21:23.836 people I have ever met in my entire life, and 0:21:23.876 --> 0:21:27.156 I've had the pleasure of working with smart people all 0:21:27.196 --> 0:21:32.636 throughout my education and career. But you know, we're generating 0:21:32.716 --> 0:21:34.916 quite a lot of IP, We're generating quite a lot 0:21:34.916 --> 0:21:38.916 of improvements. There's so many improvements that we're planning to 0:21:38.956 --> 0:21:41.316 feather in over time as we develop the system that 0:21:41.396 --> 0:21:43.876 I think will replace Portland cement in the next one 0:21:43.956 --> 0:21:44.836 hundred years. 0:21:45.516 --> 0:21:50.996 And in terms of cost, I mean, obviously cost must 0:21:51.076 --> 0:21:53.676 be to a very large degree of function of scale. 0:21:53.796 --> 0:22:00.196 And you're scaling up at scale. Are you already cost competitive? 0:22:00.236 --> 0:22:03.036 Do you have to find new efficiencies? I mean presumably 0:22:03.676 --> 0:22:06.676 this is like a brutal commodity business. 0:22:06.996 --> 0:22:08.596 Yeah, totally brutal. 0:22:08.636 --> 0:22:12.396 And so we can get very close to competing on 0:22:12.476 --> 0:22:18.436 costs with Portland cement, no carrots, no sticks, at scale 0:22:18.676 --> 0:22:21.956 with six sons of kilawad hour electricity. So not even 0:22:22.636 --> 0:22:27.156 using funny math, so using what we think are you know, 0:22:27.316 --> 0:22:31.956 realistic assumptions, so you know, but we're still far out 0:22:31.956 --> 0:22:34.716 from a megaton plant. But what we can say with 0:22:35.076 --> 0:22:38.756 total confidence is that we will be cheaper than Portland 0:22:38.756 --> 0:22:42.596 cement plus post combustion carbon capture, which is presently the 0:22:42.636 --> 0:22:46.836 only other way to get to zero for cement making. 0:22:46.996 --> 0:22:50.316 So every time you take a Portland cement kiln million 0:22:50.356 --> 0:22:54.156 tons per year, you add post combustion carbon capture, you 0:22:54.196 --> 0:22:57.036 add some other process. You're always adding capex to that 0:22:57.476 --> 0:23:00.076 Portland cement plant and opex. And I think the wonderful 0:23:00.076 --> 0:23:03.036 thing about Sublime, which is our unique advantage, is that 0:23:03.396 --> 0:23:06.276 we're not adding onto the kilm, we're replacing the kilm. 0:23:06.356 --> 0:23:10.476