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Speaker 1: Pushkin. You know it's amazing cement. Cement doesn't burn or

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Speaker 1: rust or rot. Cement lasts for thousands of years. See

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Speaker 1: Roman aqueducts, Mayan temples, and you can use cement to

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Speaker 1: build almost anything. Cement is so amazing that every year

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Speaker 1: humanity makes four billion metric tons of it. That is roughly,

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Speaker 1: very roughly a thousand pounds of cement for every man,

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Speaker 1: woman and child on planet Earth every year. Now, for

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Speaker 1: the bad news, making cement is wildly, almost absurdly carbon intensive.

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Speaker 1: We don't hear so much about this. Cement is generally

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Speaker 1: not what we talk about when we talk about climate change.

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Speaker 1: But in order to solve climate change, we're going to

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Speaker 1: have to figure out a better way to make cement.

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Speaker 1: I'm Jacob Goldstein and this is What's Your Problem, the

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Speaker 1: show where I talk to people who are trying to

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Speaker 1: make technological progress. My guest today is Leah Ellis. She's

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Speaker 1: the co founder and CEO of Sublime Systems. Lea's problem

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Speaker 1: is this, how can you make cement without emitting carbon dioxide?

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Speaker 1: Before she got into cement, Lea was in grad school

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Speaker 1: working on lithium ion batteries, and as happens to a

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Speaker 1: lot of grad students. She had this kind of deflating

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Speaker 1: conversation with her advisor.

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Speaker 2: One of my last you know, walk and talks with

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Speaker 2: my PhD supervisor is like, you know, what's next in batteries?

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Speaker 2: And he was like, oh, it'll take you know, tens

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Speaker 2: of thousands of people ten years to get to the

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Speaker 2: next level.

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Speaker 3: But I was like, oh.

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Speaker 2: Damn, Like I don't want to be like one of

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Speaker 2: ten thousand people working for ten years.

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Speaker 1: So you realize that you sort of missed the kind

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Speaker 1: of innovation glory days for batteries perhaps, So what do

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Speaker 1: you do?

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Speaker 2: Well? I wanted to continue working with inventors, so I

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Speaker 2: got a Canadian government fellowship to go anywhere work with anyone,

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Speaker 2: and I chose to come to Mit to work with

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Speaker 2: Professor Yetmingchek. And it was actually Yet's idea to work

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Speaker 2: on cement. And it wouldn't have been something that I

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Speaker 2: would have ever had the audacity to jump fields like that.

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Speaker 1: So how did that idea come up?

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Speaker 2: Well, so Yet a year before, in twenty seventeen, had

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Speaker 2: spun out Form Energy, which is a long duration energy

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Speaker 2: storage company, and he had his eye on these trends,

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Speaker 2: you know, renewable electricity is becoming the cheapest form of electricity,

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Speaker 2: especially if it's intermittent, and you know, the utility sector

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Speaker 2: being thirty percent of house gas emissions, like, thought's going

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Speaker 2: to go to zero if we'ever going to achieve net zero,

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Speaker 2: and then you know what what would happen as a

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Speaker 2: consequence of that is that you have all of this

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Speaker 2: renewable capacity that then you then you can use to

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Speaker 2: decarbonise the next largest tranches of emissions, so cement and

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Speaker 2: steel being each about eight percent of global CO two emissions.

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Speaker 2: The thinking was like, you know, how do you decarbonise

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Speaker 2: cement assuming you are in a world with abundant and

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Speaker 2: relatively cheap renewable electrons.

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Speaker 1: So super top down, super like macro big picture, not like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I've got this little technical idea, how can we build

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Speaker 1: it up? But it's like, Okay, I'm I'm looking at

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Speaker 1: the whole planet for the next thirty years, and I

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Speaker 1: see that like making steel and cement is like a

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Speaker 1: problem we have to solve, and we're gonna have a

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Speaker 1: lot of intermittent clean energy.

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Speaker 3: What do you got exactly?

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Speaker 1: And so he mentioned cement to you, what do you

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Speaker 1: know about cement. When he mentioned cement.

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Speaker 2: Well, I assume that cement and concrete were the same thing.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that was my level of understanding at the time.

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Speaker 2: But I did know that cement was, you know, a

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Speaker 2: much larger tranch of COTO emissions than you know, lithium

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Speaker 2: ion batteries could ever address.

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Speaker 1: And so just to be clear, when you say you

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Speaker 1: assume that cement and concrete were the same, you're saying

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Speaker 1: you didn't know anything. Because that's one that's always been

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Speaker 1: hard for me. I memorized it in preparing for this interview.

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Speaker 1: It's one thing I'll definitely get out of this AMA.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know sometimes I get those two words

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Speaker 2: mixed up even now.

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Speaker 1: So what's the difference just for everybody?

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Speaker 2: So, cement is the glue, it's rock glue, and concrete

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Speaker 2: is the glue plus aggregate. So cement is the glue

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Speaker 2: that holds the rocks together to meet concrete.

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Speaker 1: Right, So all the things around us are built out

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Speaker 1: of concrete, and cement is sort of the essential ingredient

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Speaker 1: in concrete.

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Speaker 2: That's right, It's about fifteen percent of the concrete.

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Speaker 1: How do you start learning about cement?

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Speaker 2: Well, I first started on Wikipedia. It's one of my

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Speaker 2: favorite always to spend time.

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Speaker 3: So it was quite delightful.

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Speaker 2: And from Wikipedia, you know, spent a lot of time

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Speaker 2: at the library, you know, in textbooks and then going

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Speaker 2: from textbooks to research articles and.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's been really really fun.

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Speaker 2: Honestly, lithium ion batteries are art cool and magical, but

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Speaker 2: cement is is awesome. I think if you're a material scientist,

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Speaker 2: if you're a nerd, there's like a very deep and

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Speaker 2: exciting rabbit hole that you can go down to you

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Speaker 2: once you start getting stoked about cement.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's get stoked about cement. So first of all,

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Speaker 1: it's extraordinarily ubiquitous, right, like so ubiquitous you don't even

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Speaker 1: notice it. I was actually listening to an interview with

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Speaker 1: you a couple of weeks ago, and I happened to

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Speaker 1: be at the airport, and I realized as I was listening,

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Speaker 1: like I was of course standing on on cement on

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Speaker 1: concrete right on the sidewalk, but also there were like

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Speaker 1: I was it was like two decks, you know, arrivals

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Speaker 1: and departures, and so there were these like columns made

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Speaker 1: out of concrete, and then there was concrete over my head.

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Speaker 1: So I was essentially like encased in cement in concrete

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Speaker 1: as I was listening to it. So that was good.

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Speaker 1: That was that was getting me in the right in

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Speaker 1: the right mood for this interview.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, once you see it, you really can't unsee it,

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Speaker 2: and it's it's really fun. And as I've gotten into

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Speaker 2: cement chemistry and durability and testing every sort of feature

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Speaker 2: in the cement you look at you can see weathering,

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Speaker 2: you can see freeze thought damage, you can see alkali

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Speaker 2: silica reaction, you can see rebark corrosion, and it really

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Speaker 2: makes uh, you know, a walk down the concrete jungle

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Speaker 2: a little bit more intellectually stimulating than it was before.

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Speaker 1: So certainly there's a lot of it. Certainly it's important.

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Speaker 1: And so let's talk about how cement is made today.

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Speaker 1: This is not what you're doing, but sort of the

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Speaker 1: thing you're trying to improve upon. Right, Portland cement is

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Speaker 1: this phrase that it's basically a technique for making cement. Right,

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Speaker 1: it's a product, but it's also a way of making

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Speaker 1: the product that's been around for what more than one

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Speaker 1: hundred years? So briefly, what is Portland cement? How do

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Speaker 1: you make it? What do you start with.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Portland cement is a specific formulation of cement that

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Speaker 2: has been around one hundred and ninety nine years. So

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Speaker 2: Portland cement will celebrate its two hundredth birthday this year

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Speaker 2: on October fourth.

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Speaker 3: That's two hundred years since, and.

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Speaker 1: You're trying to make sure it doesn't make it to

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Speaker 1: two hundred.

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Speaker 3: And fifty, right, exactly. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So the way Portland cement is made, you take limestone

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Speaker 2: as the calcium source, and then you will also need

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Speaker 2: the right ratios of calcium to silica, alumina and iron.

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Speaker 2: So that Portland cement recipe is about getting those ratios right.

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Speaker 2: But the dominant ingredient is limestone.

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Speaker 1: So limestone is the key ingredient. The thing we want

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Speaker 1: in the limestone is the calcium. But is the calcium

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Speaker 1: bound with carbon? Is that our fundamental problem?

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 2: So the limestone is a calcium oxide bound to CO

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Speaker 2: two and those are chemically bound very strongly, which makes

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Speaker 2: the calcium inert.

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Speaker 1: And the process of making cement is you want to

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Speaker 1: essentially isolate the calcium, I mean, among other things, but

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Speaker 1: a key piece of the process is that, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So in making Portland cement, how does that.

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Speaker 2: Happen by heating it to the point where that bond

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Speaker 2: breaks and CO two, you know, goes as a gas

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Speaker 2: and then you get this solid solid gas separation where

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Speaker 2: you have solid calcium oxide and gashous CO two.

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Speaker 1: Okay, And so then that CO two just goes off

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Speaker 1: into the atmosphere, go often to the chimney.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's mixed with the combustion emissions and goes into

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Speaker 2: the air.

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Speaker 1: Okay. So it's just it's just more carbon emissions. It's bad.

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Speaker 1: It's the thing we're trying to get rid of on

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Speaker 1: the planet.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. Mean it's causing global warming.

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Speaker 1: Okay. So you've broken down the limestone and emitted a

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Speaker 1: bunch of CO two in so doing, but you're not

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Speaker 1: done yet, right, what has to happen next.

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Speaker 2: So once that's broken down, it's heated further to fourteen

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Speaker 2: hundred degrees celsius.

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Speaker 1: So it's getting wildly hot. I mean, is the rock

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Speaker 1: actually like melting? Does it look lava ish if you

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Speaker 1: look at it?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: And I actually have had the distinct privilege of looking

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Speaker 2: down the center of a Portland cement kiln. There there's

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Speaker 2: like a tiny hole under the fuel injection port, you

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Speaker 2: put on a welding mask. It's of course extremely hot,

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Speaker 2: and you can peer down and see the rotary kiln going.

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Speaker 2: You can see the flame coming right over your head

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Speaker 2: through that fuel injection port, and you can see the

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Speaker 2: molten rock rolling towards you, like red red, glowing hot.

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Speaker 1: And so so, in addition to the carbon dioxide emitted

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Speaker 1: directly from the limestone in the first stage, presumably people

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Speaker 1: are burning a lot of fossil fuels in order to

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Speaker 1: make this rock lava hot in this stage, thereby emitting

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Speaker 1: more carbon dioxide into the atmosphere.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 2: And so besides, every Portland cement kiln you're going to see,

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Speaker 2: you know, a small hill of coal, and it's normally

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Speaker 2: bitchumen is coal, though there's often a blend of fuels

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Speaker 2: used to heat up the kiln to this enormous temperature.

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Speaker 2: But bitchumen is cool. Is what's necessary to get this

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Speaker 2: like highly luminous flame that creates the ideal temperatures.

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Speaker 1: So you're not only burning fossil fuels, you're burning coal,

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Speaker 1: which is a particularly dirty, particularly carbon intensive fossil fuel.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And we make a ton of cement, so like cement.

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Speaker 1: It's like very carbon intensive, emits a lot of carbon

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Speaker 1: into the atmosphere, and we need it, and we make

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Speaker 1: literally what order of magnitude how many tons?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, about four billion tons a year.

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Speaker 1: Four billion tons a year. And so overall, when you

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Speaker 1: take it all together, what percent of human carbon emissions

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Speaker 1: are from making cement?

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Speaker 2: So it's eight percent of global CO two missions from cement.

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Speaker 1: This is a big problem, and we don't know how

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Speaker 1: to fix.

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Speaker 3: It, that's right.

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Speaker 2: So there are incremental approaches that chip away at the problem,

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Speaker 2: like using alternative fuels. You can swap out some of

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Speaker 2: the coal with natural gas or with burning tires. You

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Speaker 2: can use supplementary sumuntitious materials, so some antigious materials that

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Speaker 2: are less performant, you can blend them in up to

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Speaker 2: thirty even up to fifty percent to to you know,

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Speaker 2: reduce the emissions. But getting to zero is very difficult,

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Speaker 2: if not impossible, with things that are exist today.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about that, right you You are not

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Speaker 1: going for an incremental gain here, you're saying, okay, let's

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Speaker 1: start from zero and let's figure out a whole new

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Speaker 1: way to make cement that doesn't emit any carbon dioxide

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Speaker 1: and you decide that instead of using coal, you're gonna

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Speaker 1: use electricity, right.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 2: So being battery scientists and electric chemists, you know, we've

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Speaker 2: got the hammer and everything looks like a nail, right,

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Speaker 2: so we can's electricity, but we wanted to look beyond it.

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Speaker 2: Just the most obvious way, which is like to use

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Speaker 2: an electric kiln for heating, that's got as challenges. I

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Speaker 2: mean that one's the obvious way. If it was easy,

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Speaker 2: people would already have done it. There's various challenges with

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Speaker 2: efficiency and material so we had to find another path.

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Speaker 2: And what we derived after many brainstorming sessions and investigating

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Speaker 2: different options, was this way of breaking down the minerals

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Speaker 2: using electric chemistry instead of using heat. So by bypassing

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Speaker 2: the heating also allowed us to be more amenable with

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Speaker 2: the use of intermittent renewable electricity, because of course heating

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Speaker 2: requires base load electricity. It takes days to heat up

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Speaker 2: a kiln to those high temperatures, and so it doesn't

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Speaker 2: allow you to be rampable, it doesn't allow you to

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Speaker 2: be load following.

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Speaker 1: Right, because that a regional kind of marching orders. The

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Speaker 1: original big idea was like we're going to have extraordinary

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Speaker 1: abundance of renewable energy, but for a while at least,

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Speaker 1: it's going to be intermittent. The sun's going to shine,

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Speaker 1: then the sun's going to go down, and so you

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Speaker 1: you don't want to build a system that requires constant

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Speaker 1: high inputs of power over days and days, because that

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Speaker 1: doesn't fit the kind of worldview you're building for.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, that's right. But also you can get a

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Speaker 2: cost advantage. You can get the cheapest electricity if you

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Speaker 2: can take it whenever it's available.

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Speaker 1: So okay, so go on.

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Speaker 2: The next thing you do is technoeconomic modeling. So start modeling,

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Speaker 2: like what does it cost to do this, what are

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Speaker 2: the inputs, what are the outputs, what's the you know,

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Speaker 2: what's the capex, what's the opax, what's the labor, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: Getting quotes from vendors for specific pieces of equipment, getting

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Speaker 2: actual data from the pilot using actual numbers, and so

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Speaker 2: now it's like this, you know, multi tab quilt sized spreadsheete.

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Speaker 2: But getting that going was the first step, because you know,

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Speaker 2: that's what allows you to pivot quickly to see the

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Speaker 2: weaknesses of your approach. And we continue doing that, and

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Speaker 2: we still continue to do that to refine different elements

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Speaker 2: of our process.

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Speaker 1: This process Leah is talking about, it's a whole new

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Speaker 1: way of making cement. It doesn't involve heat at all,

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Speaker 1: and Lea hopes it will be this turning point in

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Speaker 1: the millennia long history of the way human beings make cement.

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Speaker 1: In a minute, she explains how it works. So you've

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Speaker 1: come up with this new process. You're still refining it,

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Speaker 1: trying to make it more efficient, reliable, whatever, But how

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Speaker 1: does it work?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Basically we're breaking down the inert minerals using chemistry

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Speaker 2: and electric chemistry instead of using heat. So you know,

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Speaker 2: the heart of our system, or maybe call it the lungs,

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Speaker 2: is this electrochemical reactor that takes neutral pach water and

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Speaker 2: splits it.

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Speaker 3: Into acid and base.

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Speaker 2: So there's a pH gradient that forms between the two

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Speaker 2: electrodes and that's used to dissolve calcium and other minerals

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Speaker 2: from rocks. So actually the electrochemical process we use since

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Speaker 2: we're digesting the rocks instead of cooking them, we don't

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Speaker 2: have to use limestone, so we're using calcium silicate minerals

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Speaker 2: and industrial wastes and basically taking the rock and then

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Speaker 2: splitting it into its mineral components, drying all those off

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Speaker 2: into free flowing powders, and then reassembling a cement powder

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Speaker 2: with the right ratios of all of these elements to

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Speaker 2: make a high performance cement.

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Speaker 1: And so you basically use electricity to turn water a

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Speaker 1: va of water into a place where like part of

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Speaker 1: the water is somewhat acidic and part of the water

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Speaker 1: is somewhat basic. And then you put the rocks into

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Speaker 1: that water, and the acidic parts of the water do

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Speaker 1: some of the words, and the basic parts of the

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Speaker 1: water do some of the work, and you're wet, and

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Speaker 1: you wind up with the minerals you need at a

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Speaker 1: price you can afford.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. You said it very well, So I.

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Speaker 1: Know you start with the idea, and I've heard you

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Speaker 1: say that. Initially you made one gram of cement, which

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Speaker 1: is like you described it as like the size of

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Speaker 1: an almond, which is particularly amazing given how heavy and

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Speaker 1: big cement is. And then you did a kilogram. Where

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Speaker 1: are you now?

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Speaker 2: We came out of stealth about a year ago after

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Speaker 2: we built our pilot plant, which was initially sized to

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Speaker 2: produce one hundred tons a year. In the past year,

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Speaker 2: We've had about seven thousand hours of uptime. We've scaled

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Speaker 2: it up to two hundred and fifty tons per year.

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Speaker 2: We've produced tons of cement and have ran it continuously

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Speaker 2: under dozens of conditions to you know, optimize it.

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Speaker 1: And that cement you've produced is it is it out

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Speaker 1: in the world. Is it just like practice cement? Is

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Speaker 1: it real cement? You know, holding up a building somewhere

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Speaker 1: or something?

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Speaker 2: It is actually holding up a building somewhere. So we

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Speaker 2: did our first field poor about two weeks ago.

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Speaker 1: Oh congratulations, Yeah, I like that. For field poor. Where

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Speaker 1: was the field poor?

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Speaker 2: It was in the Boston area and a piece of

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Speaker 2: in a in a commercial construction project. It was going

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Speaker 2: underneath the construction. It's typically what's called called a mud slab.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, so.

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Speaker 1: That's what you're doing. Now, what have you not figured

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Speaker 1: out yet? Like, what has to happen for you to

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Speaker 1: get from here to being a real business selling lots

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Speaker 1: of cement whatever all over the world or whatever for

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Speaker 1: you to be a real business, for you to be

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Speaker 1: a real business with revenue and your cement just you

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Speaker 1: want your cubmit to be boring, right, you want your

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Speaker 1: to be just like whatever boring again.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, there are certain things we figured out. We

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Speaker 2: figured out the product, we figured out the pros us.

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Speaker 2: But where we are today is still Even though I'm

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Speaker 2: so proud of taking this from a gram to two

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Speaker 2: hundred and fifty tons in four years, it's still a

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Speaker 2: drop in the ocean. I mean, we affectionately call our

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Speaker 2: pilot plant this cement plant for ants.

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Speaker 3: It has to be at least three times.

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Speaker 2: Bigger than this, but we have to get to a

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Speaker 2: million tons per year.

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Speaker 3: We're going to compete on cost with.

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Speaker 2: Today's Portland cement, and so going from pilot scale to

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Speaker 2: full scale, where full scale for cement is just a

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Speaker 2: titanic colossal size, our next step is to build a

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Speaker 2: minimum viable commercial scale plant. So we refer to this

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Speaker 2: as our kiloton plant. We have a site secured in

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Speaker 2: Holy Oak, Massachusetts, on the site of an old paper mill,

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Speaker 2: which we are in the process of removing this ancient

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Speaker 2: paper mill, but all the remnants of what makes this

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Speaker 2: a really exciting industrial.

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Speaker 3: Site still exists. So a hydro electric.

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Speaker 2: Dam, ready, access to rail, ready access to a workforce,

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Speaker 2: you know, industrial permits exist and so our next our

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Speaker 2: next step is to wrap up the pilot phase in

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Speaker 2: the coming months, do do the engineering and start procuring

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Speaker 2: long lead equipment so that we can start building our plant.

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Speaker 2: And so that is the work that you know, my

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Speaker 2: colleagues in the office are busy doing right now.

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Speaker 1: So these are very like practical heavy industry, could be

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Speaker 1: any kind of a big factory concerns. Do you still

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Speaker 1: have engineering or technical problems to solve as well, or

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Speaker 1: do you feel like you've got it down?

365
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Speaker 2: Well both, I do feel like I've got it down.

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Speaker 2: I'd say, you know, the problems never stop and also

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Speaker 2: the improvements never stop. So in the spirit of swift

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Speaker 2: and massive, we move as quickly as we can to

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Speaker 2: move from one one degree of scale to the next.

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Speaker 2: But there's you know, I have to say, I have

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Speaker 2: the distinct privilege of working with some of the smartest

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Speaker 2: people I have ever met in my entire life, and

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Speaker 2: I've had the pleasure of working with smart people all

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Speaker 2: throughout my education and career. But you know, we're generating

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Speaker 2: quite a lot of IP, We're generating quite a lot

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Speaker 2: of improvements. There's so many improvements that we're planning to

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Speaker 2: feather in over time as we develop the system that

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Speaker 2: I think will replace Portland cement in the next one

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Speaker 2: hundred years.

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Speaker 1: And in terms of cost, I mean, obviously cost must

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Speaker 1: be to a very large degree of function of scale.

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Speaker 1: And you're scaling up at scale. Are you already cost competitive?

383
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Speaker 1: Do you have to find new efficiencies? I mean presumably

384
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Speaker 1: this is like a brutal commodity business.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, totally brutal.

386
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Speaker 2: And so we can get very close to competing on

387
00:22:12,476 --> 00:22:18,436
Speaker 2: costs with Portland cement, no carrots, no sticks, at scale

388
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Speaker 2: with six sons of kilawad hour electricity. So not even

389
00:22:22,636 --> 00:22:27,156
Speaker 2: using funny math, so using what we think are you know,

390
00:22:27,316 --> 00:22:31,956
Speaker 2: realistic assumptions, so you know, but we're still far out

391
00:22:31,956 --> 00:22:34,716
Speaker 2: from a megaton plant. But what we can say with

392
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Speaker 2: total confidence is that we will be cheaper than Portland

393
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Speaker 2: cement plus post combustion carbon capture, which is presently the

394
00:22:42,636 --> 00:22:46,836
Speaker 2: only other way to get to zero for cement making.

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00:22:46,996 --> 00:22:50,316
Speaker 2: So every time you take a Portland cement kiln million

396
00:22:50,356 --> 00:22:54,156
Speaker 2: tons per year, you add post combustion carbon capture, you

397
00:22:54,196 --> 00:22:57,036
Speaker 2: add some other process. You're always adding capex to that

398
00:22:57,476 --> 00:23:00,076
Speaker 2: Portland cement plant and opex. And I think the wonderful

399
00:23:00,076 --> 00:23:03,036
Speaker 2: thing about Sublime, which is our unique advantage, is that

400
00:23:03,396 --> 00:23:06,276
Speaker 2: we're not adding onto the kilm, we're replacing the kilm.

401
00:23:06,356 --> 00:23:10,476
Speaker 2: We're not capture, we're not storage, we're carbon avoidance, and

402
00:23:10,516 --> 00:23:14,916
Speaker 2: that ultimately is much cheaper than capture and storage because

403
00:23:14,956 --> 00:23:17,076
Speaker 2: you're not adding onto the system.

404
00:23:18,356 --> 00:23:21,716
Speaker 1: What are some reasons it might not work?

405
00:23:24,036 --> 00:23:27,436
Speaker 2: You know, it might There are one thousand ways to die,

406
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Speaker 2: maybe even more, and I like to keep my eyes

407
00:23:32,836 --> 00:23:36,596
Speaker 2: open to all of them. And we do quite a

408
00:23:36,596 --> 00:23:40,156
Speaker 2: lot of risk registered development. We have like what we

409
00:23:40,236 --> 00:23:43,196
Speaker 2: call our three a M list quarterly, I get, you know,

410
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Speaker 2: everyone anyone in the.

411
00:23:45,796 --> 00:23:47,116
Speaker 3: Like what keeps you as you.

412
00:23:47,036 --> 00:23:49,556
Speaker 1: Worry about when you wake up at three in the morning. Yeah,

413
00:23:49,796 --> 00:23:52,036
Speaker 1: what's at the top of that list right now?

414
00:23:53,876 --> 00:23:55,836
Speaker 3: If changes day to day. So I'm glad you said

415
00:23:55,956 --> 00:23:56,356
Speaker 3: right now.

416
00:23:56,516 --> 00:23:59,756
Speaker 2: I mean, like, as we go into this process of

417
00:23:59,876 --> 00:24:04,596
Speaker 2: going from pilot to first commercial, I think about cost

418
00:24:04,716 --> 00:24:08,436
Speaker 2: overruns and this this isn't just you know.

419
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Speaker 1: Just like building a factory, totally classic.

420
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Speaker 2: And you know, hiring I'd love to hire someone who's

421
00:24:15,276 --> 00:24:17,476
Speaker 2: done this before because I think this is where you

422
00:24:17,556 --> 00:24:21,516
Speaker 2: really need someone who's done this before, because it's not

423
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Speaker 2: just the cost of the thing.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we think.

425
00:24:23,796 --> 00:24:27,556
Speaker 2: We've got that lockdown with solid research, solid quotes, just timeline.

426
00:24:27,676 --> 00:24:30,556
Speaker 2: You know, imagine like you're missing like some widget and

427
00:24:30,596 --> 00:24:33,196
Speaker 2: you find out this little dinky piece is like I'm

428
00:24:33,196 --> 00:24:35,716
Speaker 2: gonna show up a year later than everything else, and

429
00:24:35,796 --> 00:24:38,396
Speaker 2: your companies, you know, you've got your burn rate of

430
00:24:38,396 --> 00:24:39,276
Speaker 2: the whole company.

431
00:24:39,596 --> 00:24:42,756
Speaker 3: So that's that's just one way to die.

432
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Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, it's a classic. That is a classic

433
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Speaker 1: way to die.

434
00:24:46,636 --> 00:24:51,716
Speaker 2: Yea running out of money. Your heart stops beating it,

435
00:24:51,836 --> 00:24:52,876
Speaker 2: you know.

436
00:24:53,916 --> 00:24:59,436
Speaker 1: So that's the sad story. There is some happy story

437
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Speaker 1: where it works and you build a factory and you

438
00:25:02,836 --> 00:25:11,116
Speaker 1: start selling cement, clean cement. Like if you go I

439
00:25:11,116 --> 00:25:13,476
Speaker 1: don't know, say ten years into the future, what does

440
00:25:13,516 --> 00:25:15,236
Speaker 1: the world look like if it's the happy story.

441
00:25:15,396 --> 00:25:18,076
Speaker 2: Yeah, well I may go more than ten years in

442
00:25:18,116 --> 00:25:20,516
Speaker 2: the future, and I maybe go one hundred years in

443
00:25:20,556 --> 00:25:23,916
Speaker 2: the future. I like to think about a post carbon world,

444
00:25:23,996 --> 00:25:27,676
Speaker 2: like what does it look like when you know, you know,

445
00:25:27,756 --> 00:25:30,196
Speaker 2: you're penalized for your CO two emissions the same way

446
00:25:30,236 --> 00:25:33,756
Speaker 2: you're penalized for you know, mercury emissions or something like that.

447
00:25:34,276 --> 00:25:38,436
Speaker 3: And you know, I like to think that if we're successful.

448
00:25:38,636 --> 00:25:42,876
Speaker 2: The most wildly successful version of Sublime Systems is that

449
00:25:42,916 --> 00:25:46,796
Speaker 2: We've changed the way humans make cement the same way

450
00:25:46,956 --> 00:25:49,436
Speaker 2: you know, Romans changed the way we made cement, same

451
00:25:49,476 --> 00:25:53,196
Speaker 2: way the British and French with Portland cement changed the

452
00:25:53,196 --> 00:25:58,196
Speaker 2: world way we made cement. I think, you know, humbly, cautiously, optimistically,

453
00:25:58,316 --> 00:26:00,836
Speaker 2: what Sublime is doing could change the way humans make

454
00:26:01,316 --> 00:26:06,396
Speaker 2: cement forever. And I think that's really exciting because it's

455
00:26:06,596 --> 00:26:08,836
Speaker 2: it's such a monumental thing. Like when you go to

456
00:26:09,596 --> 00:26:12,756
Speaker 2: when you go to Egypt, you see, you know, construction,

457
00:26:13,356 --> 00:26:15,716
Speaker 2: things that were made to last, you know, you go

458
00:26:15,756 --> 00:26:19,676
Speaker 2: see the aqueducts, you go see things, and these things

459
00:26:19,676 --> 00:26:22,996
Speaker 2: that were built are a testament and a monument to

460
00:26:23,076 --> 00:26:25,476
Speaker 2: the values of the people that created them. And so

461
00:26:26,396 --> 00:26:29,716
Speaker 2: I think, you know, you know, the coolest thing for

462
00:26:29,796 --> 00:26:34,516
Speaker 2: me is to have like enduring significant buildings that are

463
00:26:34,556 --> 00:26:36,556
Speaker 2: made with you know, the cement of the future and

464
00:26:36,956 --> 00:26:40,316
Speaker 2: having like archaeologists one thousand and two thousand years from

465
00:26:40,356 --> 00:26:43,116
Speaker 2: now looking back and being like, oh, there was this

466
00:26:43,236 --> 00:26:46,276
Speaker 2: period before where the world was a certain way, and

467
00:26:46,316 --> 00:26:51,076
Speaker 2: then there was something that happened where co two levels

468
00:26:51,116 --> 00:26:53,676
Speaker 2: crusted and then they came down and at that point

469
00:26:54,236 --> 00:26:57,236
Speaker 2: in time, like we can see how their buildings materials

470
00:26:57,356 --> 00:26:58,676
Speaker 2: change to adapt to that.

471
00:26:59,156 --> 00:27:00,916
Speaker 3: I think. I think that's pretty cool.

472
00:27:00,916 --> 00:27:03,116
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think you can get closer to

473
00:27:03,236 --> 00:27:07,516
Speaker 2: a monumental legacy than to really change building materials in.

474
00:27:07,476 --> 00:27:16,116
Speaker 1: That way, the way literal monuments are built. Yeah, we'll

475
00:27:16,116 --> 00:27:27,796
Speaker 1: be back in a minute with the lightning round. After

476
00:27:27,876 --> 00:27:31,516
Speaker 1: that big think and we're going to do a small

477
00:27:31,876 --> 00:27:38,076
Speaker 1: think lightning round to conclude. What's your favorite concrete structure

478
00:27:38,396 --> 00:27:39,236
Speaker 1: or concrete thing?

479
00:27:40,116 --> 00:27:43,956
Speaker 2: Oh, you know, it's the things that folks on my

480
00:27:44,036 --> 00:27:48,156
Speaker 2: teammates so often. You know, we're doing tests on our

481
00:27:48,196 --> 00:27:50,596
Speaker 2: cement pace, and so we have a bunch of molds

482
00:27:50,596 --> 00:27:53,956
Speaker 2: of like you know, frogs and dragons and snowmen and

483
00:27:54,396 --> 00:27:58,796
Speaker 2: whales and turtles and so. I yeah, my favorite concrete

484
00:27:58,836 --> 00:28:00,476
Speaker 2: things are it's probably the dragon.

485
00:28:00,716 --> 00:28:02,276
Speaker 3: I like the dragon the most.

486
00:28:02,956 --> 00:28:03,996
Speaker 1: How big is the dragon?

487
00:28:04,316 --> 00:28:04,476
Speaker 2: Oh?

488
00:28:04,516 --> 00:28:05,756
Speaker 3: It fits on the palm of my hand.

489
00:28:05,796 --> 00:28:08,836
Speaker 2: I sometimes take it with me to conferences, you know,

490
00:28:08,956 --> 00:28:09,836
Speaker 2: just to meet people.

491
00:28:09,916 --> 00:28:12,436
Speaker 3: You know, seeing is believing, and so sometimes it travels

492
00:28:12,476 --> 00:28:12,716
Speaker 3: with me.

493
00:28:14,196 --> 00:28:16,836
Speaker 1: What's your least favorite concrete thing?

494
00:28:21,076 --> 00:28:22,796
Speaker 3: I would probably say New York City.

495
00:28:23,236 --> 00:28:27,116
Speaker 2: Just something about that city just makes me despair. I

496
00:28:27,156 --> 00:28:30,916
Speaker 2: don't know what it is like just never been a fan.

497
00:28:31,076 --> 00:28:31,556
Speaker 3: I'm trying.

498
00:28:31,596 --> 00:28:33,796
Speaker 2: I'm trying to be open minded about New York City,

499
00:28:33,836 --> 00:28:35,396
Speaker 2: but you know, I fail each time I go.

500
00:28:35,796 --> 00:28:38,156
Speaker 3: No offense, not my cup of tea.

501
00:28:38,276 --> 00:28:41,036
Speaker 1: Fair. It's not for everybody. It's for millions of people,

502
00:28:41,076 --> 00:28:45,476
Speaker 1: but it's not for everybody. So you rode your bike

503
00:28:46,596 --> 00:28:49,996
Speaker 1: across Africa from north to south. What was the worst

504
00:28:50,076 --> 00:28:50,836
Speaker 1: day of that trip?

505
00:28:56,476 --> 00:28:59,156
Speaker 2: You know, there were days when I was extremely sick,

506
00:29:01,396 --> 00:29:03,276
Speaker 2: so it would probably be.

507
00:29:03,356 --> 00:29:04,436
Speaker 3: Those days.

508
00:29:05,996 --> 00:29:10,556
Speaker 1: And you still had to ride. Yeah, often, Yeah, Okay,

509
00:29:10,596 --> 00:29:11,796
Speaker 1: what was the best day?

510
00:29:14,196 --> 00:29:16,156
Speaker 3: I mean, every day was the best day, even if

511
00:29:16,196 --> 00:29:17,236
Speaker 3: I was totally sick.

512
00:29:17,356 --> 00:29:20,196
Speaker 2: I mean, I like to say that doing that trip

513
00:29:20,236 --> 00:29:24,756
Speaker 2: across Africa, which was about four months, twelve thousand kilometers,

514
00:29:25,036 --> 00:29:28,276
Speaker 2: about one hundred kilometers a day on average. I mean,

515
00:29:28,556 --> 00:29:31,716
Speaker 2: it's something I would recommend both to my best friends

516
00:29:31,836 --> 00:29:32,916
Speaker 2: and my worst.

517
00:29:32,676 --> 00:29:33,836
Speaker 3: Enemies, because.

518
00:29:35,556 --> 00:29:39,716
Speaker 2: I think it does is extremely character building, and you

519
00:29:39,756 --> 00:29:43,796
Speaker 2: get very comfortable with discomfort, and you know, your pain

520
00:29:43,916 --> 00:29:48,596
Speaker 2: tolerance gets through the roof. You become extremely physically fit.

521
00:29:50,756 --> 00:29:53,796
Speaker 2: So yeah, even the good days and the.

522
00:29:53,716 --> 00:29:55,996
Speaker 3: Bad days, we're all character building.

523
00:29:57,916 --> 00:30:02,596
Speaker 1: As a chemist or as a material scientist, what do

524
00:30:02,636 --> 00:30:05,996
Speaker 1: you think you understand about the physical world that most

525
00:30:05,996 --> 00:30:06,916
Speaker 1: people don't.

526
00:30:08,396 --> 00:30:08,756
Speaker 3: Well.

527
00:30:09,236 --> 00:30:12,436
Speaker 2: A lot of people think chemistry is scary. I think

528
00:30:12,516 --> 00:30:17,476
Speaker 2: people think chemicals are scary. I think chemistry is one

529
00:30:17,476 --> 00:30:20,036
Speaker 2: of the most fascinating things you can do. Is like

530
00:30:20,116 --> 00:30:24,076
Speaker 2: turning one form of matter into another form of matter

531
00:30:24,116 --> 00:30:30,436
Speaker 2: by blending them together and heating them up and pressurizing them. Yeah.

532
00:30:30,476 --> 00:30:33,756
Speaker 2: I'm always surprised when people say that they didn't like

533
00:30:33,876 --> 00:30:36,356
Speaker 2: chemistry or they found it scary in high school.

534
00:30:36,396 --> 00:30:37,836
Speaker 3: To me, it's just pure magic.

535
00:30:41,396 --> 00:30:44,236
Speaker 1: I'm going to run my first marathon this year. I

536
00:30:44,276 --> 00:30:48,036
Speaker 1: know you have run many marathons. What's one piece of

537
00:30:48,076 --> 00:30:48,996
Speaker 1: advice you would give me?

538
00:30:51,116 --> 00:30:51,756
Speaker 3: Don't walk.

539
00:30:51,876 --> 00:30:54,676
Speaker 2: Once you start walking, like, you'll never be able to

540
00:30:54,796 --> 00:30:55,356
Speaker 2: run again.

541
00:30:55,756 --> 00:30:58,596
Speaker 3: So even if you're you think you're if you're faced.

542
00:30:58,316 --> 00:31:00,076
Speaker 2: With a hill, you're like, oh, I could walk up

543
00:31:00,116 --> 00:31:02,276
Speaker 2: that hill just as fast as I could keep running.

544
00:31:02,556 --> 00:31:05,556
Speaker 2: Just don't let your body know that walking is an option,

545
00:31:05,676 --> 00:31:08,556
Speaker 2: because you will end up walking those last five kilometers

546
00:31:08,596 --> 00:31:11,236
Speaker 2: as I did first time I did the marathon.

547
00:31:12,556 --> 00:31:18,236
Speaker 1: That is good advice. Is there anything else we should

548
00:31:18,236 --> 00:31:20,756
Speaker 1: talk about? Did we not talk about anything that we

549
00:31:20,796 --> 00:31:23,676
Speaker 1: should talk about?

550
00:31:25,356 --> 00:31:26,116
Speaker 3: You know, I've.

551
00:31:27,796 --> 00:31:30,836
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean one thing that I feel strongly about

552
00:31:30,956 --> 00:31:36,236
Speaker 2: is carbon avoidance, and you know, this need to avoid

553
00:31:36,276 --> 00:31:39,036
Speaker 2: carbon emissions, and I just believe so much, not only

554
00:31:39,116 --> 00:31:41,596
Speaker 2: in my own technology, but but in others that are

555
00:31:41,636 --> 00:31:45,596
Speaker 2: coming out in steel and ammonia and industrial processing.

556
00:31:45,676 --> 00:31:47,796
Speaker 3: That is about efficiency.

557
00:31:47,836 --> 00:31:52,276
Speaker 2: It's about doing things smarter and not making things more complicated,

558
00:31:53,276 --> 00:31:55,836
Speaker 2: and it you know, I love nothing more than like

559
00:31:55,956 --> 00:32:01,116
Speaker 2: really elegant solutions. I'm biased, but in my biased opinion,

560
00:32:01,156 --> 00:32:04,276
Speaker 2: Sublime it's one of these elegant solutions that will be

561
00:32:04,516 --> 00:32:07,196
Speaker 2: obvious in retrospect. And I think it's a very exciting

562
00:32:07,276 --> 00:32:11,556
Speaker 2: time to be to be technologists, to work at startups,

563
00:32:11,676 --> 00:32:16,276
Speaker 2: and to really force these new inventions into reality with

564
00:32:16,436 --> 00:32:20,156
Speaker 2: help from the industry incumbents, which I think are moving

565
00:32:20,196 --> 00:32:22,036
Speaker 2: faster than an ever before.

566
00:32:21,796 --> 00:32:24,596
Speaker 3: To create the future. It's a really fun time.

567
00:32:28,436 --> 00:32:34,876
Speaker 1: Pleiah Ellis is the co founder and CEO of Sublime Systems.

568
00:32:36,156 --> 00:32:39,436
Speaker 1: Today's show was produced by Gabriel Hunter Cheng. It was

569
00:32:39,676 --> 00:32:43,116
Speaker 1: edited by Lyddy jeene Kott and engineered by Sarah Bruguier.

570
00:32:43,636 --> 00:32:47,236
Speaker 1: You can email us at problem at Pushkin dot FM.

571
00:32:47,356 --> 00:32:49,676
Speaker 1: I'm Jacob Goldstein and we'll be back next week with

572
00:32:49,756 --> 00:32:58,556
Speaker 1: another episode of what's your problem,