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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us today as we

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Speaker 1: offer some education, insight, and hopefully some helpful support to

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Speaker 1: those impacted by the devastating flooding that happened over the

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Speaker 1: weekend in central Texas. My name is doctor Elizabeth mcindallan.

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Speaker 1: I'm the director of the UCDI Institute here in Texas,

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Speaker 1: where we specialize in using cognitive behavioral therapy to treat

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Speaker 1: anxiety disorders, which of course also includes trauma. CBT is

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Speaker 1: the most evidence based intervention for trauma, and we know

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Speaker 1: that it is an intervention that can help individuals not

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Speaker 1: just be able to process the trauma, but be able

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Speaker 1: to get unstuck and live full lives despite experiencing trauma.

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Speaker 1: What we know is that this weekend's flooding will have

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Speaker 1: a lasting impact on families and communities for decades to come,

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Speaker 1: and we are here to support you through it. Today

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Speaker 1: we're joined by the world renowned doctor Bruce Perry, who

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Speaker 1: is a leading expert in trauma response, how we can

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Speaker 1: respond appropriately, and of course how we help individuals live through,

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Speaker 1: cope and moved through traumatic experiences. We're so excited to

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Speaker 1: have him today on the podcast and to provide insight, education,

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Speaker 1: and support. Thank you so much for joining us, and

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Speaker 1: we're looking forward to providing support today and in the future.

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Speaker 1: We're going to continue these episodes so that we can

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Speaker 1: continue to provide appropriate education at appropriate time points, because

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Speaker 1: what we know is that support tends to and should

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Speaker 1: come in phases, and certain support is what's needed right now,

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Speaker 1: where different support will be what's needed later. OCDI Texas

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Speaker 1: and doctor Bruce Perry's team are going to work together

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Speaker 1: to make sure we're continuing to provide education and support

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Speaker 1: along the way. Thank you for joining. We are joined

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Speaker 1: today by an incredible world renowned trauma expert and specialist,

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Speaker 1: doctor Bruce Perry, and a community leader who is also

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Speaker 1: my dad doctor was a doctor, but Jim Mackingdell. Where

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Speaker 1: we're going to join together to really talk about how

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Speaker 1: can we show up as a community, How can we

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Speaker 1: show up to loved ones, of friends, to families, and

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Speaker 1: of course to those who are directly impacted by this devastation.

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Speaker 1: So I want to start with a couple of introductions,

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Speaker 1: and of course we will hop into just what do

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Speaker 1: we do, where do we start and how do we

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Speaker 1: make a difference. So first and foremost, I want to

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Speaker 1: introduce a colleague, a good friend, and a mentor. Doctor

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Speaker 1: Bruce Perry doctor Perry is a world renowned psychiatrist and

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Speaker 1: neuroscientists and trauma expert whose groundbreaking work has reshaped how

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Speaker 1: we understand and respond to the impact of trauma on children, families,

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Speaker 1: and communities. He's the Principal of Neurosequential Network and Senior

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Speaker 1: Fellow at the Child Trauma Academy. He formerly served as

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Speaker 1: the Chief of Psychiatry at Texas Children's Hospital and the

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Speaker 1: Vice Chair of Psychiatry at Balor College of Medicine. He

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Speaker 1: has over five hundred scientific publications, book chapters, and presentations

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Speaker 1: to his name and has truly devoted his life to

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Speaker 1: helping us understand the lasting and print of trauma on

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Speaker 1: the developing brain. Doctor Perry is perhaps most widely known

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Speaker 1: to the public through so many of his best selling books,

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Speaker 1: including The Boy Who Was raisedst The Dog Born for Love,

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Speaker 1: and What Happened to You, which he co authored with

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Speaker 1: over Winfrey. These works have given a voice to the

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Speaker 1: silent suffering of countless children and illuminated a path towards compassion, healing,

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Speaker 1: and post traumatic growth. Doctor Perry has been called upon

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Speaker 1: time and time again in the wake of tragedy, from

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Speaker 1: school shootings and natural disasters to the traumatic loss of children,

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Speaker 1: to helping guide communities through unimaginable grief. His insights have

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Speaker 1: not only shaped trauma informed clinical care, but have also

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Speaker 1: provided urgent guidelines for caregivers, educators, first responders, policymakers, and

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Speaker 1: all of us in times of national crisis. Today, as

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Speaker 1: we are all grappling with the devastation of the Central

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Speaker 1: Texas floods and the heartbreaking events at Camp Mystic and

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Speaker 1: within our entire community, were especially grateful to have doctor

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Speaker 1: Perry with us. His presence reminds us that in our

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Speaker 1: deepest pain, healing begins with the understanding, and that connection, rhythm,

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Speaker 1: and compassion are often the foundations for recovery. Thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for joining us, doctor Perry. We could not

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Speaker 1: be happier and more grateful.

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Speaker 2: To Well, it's my pleasure to be here. It's heartbreaking stuff.

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Speaker 2: One of the things I'm actually so happy to be

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Speaker 2: on this because the sense of helplessness that people feel

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Speaker 2: during these times is something that I've felt. It's like

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Speaker 2: I'm up in you know, I'm out of the country

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Speaker 2: right now, and my daughters went to mystic. So just

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Speaker 2: thinking about it, it's like ough, it's heartbreaking. I can't

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Speaker 2: even hold in my mind the images of what happened

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Speaker 2: to those children. And I know that I'm not alone

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Speaker 2: in that. There's a lot of people that just can

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Speaker 2: barely tolerate the imagery, the thought of what happened to

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Speaker 2: those children. You know, one of the things that we

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Speaker 2: have been doing over the last I don't know thirty

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Speaker 2: years has been trying to figure out how to respond

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Speaker 2: to events like this. And sometimes they're man made, know,

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Speaker 2: their war or some other catastrophic event, they're frequently not

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Speaker 2: at this scale, right, I mean, this is a The

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Speaker 2: scale of this devastation is such that there are multiple

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Speaker 2: layers and levels of complexity where we have to think

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Speaker 2: as a community of healers, as a community of as

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Speaker 2: a community about what do you do? But what do

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Speaker 2: I do with my little, my little slice of experience

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Speaker 2: to try to make this better? And so maybe we

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Speaker 2: can talk a little bit about that, because.

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Speaker 3: It's the pondering what we should do sometimes is paralyzing,

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Speaker 3: and that leads to the level more of the sense

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Speaker 3: of hopelessness.

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Speaker 2: So what I want to do is help people understand

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Speaker 2: that listen. At whatever level you are, in whatever way

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Speaker 2: you interact with people who have been impacted by this,

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Speaker 2: you can have a positive effect that really will contribute

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Speaker 2: to healing. So I think that's part of what we

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Speaker 2: should talk.

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Speaker 1: About one hundred percent, and I think our goal for

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Speaker 1: today is exactly that is, how can everybody feel like

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Speaker 1: they know what step to take next, even if it's

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Speaker 1: just putting one foot in front of the other, How

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Speaker 1: they can do that, And also what the community and

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Speaker 1: our response needs to be, not just right now, but

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Speaker 1: in the near future and in the long run, because

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Speaker 1: all of that will make a huge difference on how individuals,

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Speaker 1: family members, and of course in our entire community heals.

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Speaker 1: And so next, I want to introduce my dad, James Macindell,

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Speaker 1: who is next to us on the screen and joining

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Speaker 1: us today. Jim is a Houston icon entrepreneur and philanthropists

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Speaker 1: and and is one of the most beloved iconic leaders

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Speaker 1: in Houston and in Texas. He's the founder of Gallery

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Speaker 1: Furniture and has become nationally recognized not just for his

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Speaker 1: business success, but for his unwavering commitment to helping people

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Speaker 1: in times of crisis. He's more than a businessman, He's

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Speaker 1: a force of good in the world, from sheltering hundreds

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Speaker 1: during Hurricane Harvey, defeating families through snowstorms, and now supporting

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Speaker 1: Texas and Texans affected during these devastating floods. Max legacy

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Speaker 1: is one of immediate action and unwavering community care. When

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Speaker 1: tragedy strikes, Jim doesn't ask what should be done, he

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Speaker 1: simply does it. Today he joins to share his perspective

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Speaker 1: on how we as community members can show up for

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Speaker 1: others in moments of grief and uncertainty, and how we

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Speaker 1: can turn purpose, faith and service into tools for healing.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Dad, and would love to hear

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Speaker 1: from you a little bit of just how you always

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Speaker 1: find a way to bring the community together during these times.

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Speaker 4: Well, the entire state is devastated, not just this Hill country,

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Speaker 4: but people are affected in Dallas, San Antonio, Austin, l Paso,

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Speaker 4: Houston of course all over the state. It's a tragedy

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Speaker 4: and every day we get doctor Perry a different story

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Speaker 4: of more horrors that happened. I'm just here to listen,

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Speaker 4: to learn, and try to spread the news that healing

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Speaker 4: is possible through the thoughts of people like yourself. Doctor

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Speaker 4: Perry and lives. So I'm excited to be here and

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Speaker 4: learn because we all do feel helpless right now, and

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Speaker 4: we all want to we all want to help. The

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Speaker 4: question is how to help. Do we gather supplies to

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Speaker 4: help people rebuild in central Texas? Do we send money?

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Speaker 4: How do we help all the Houstonians and the thousands

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Speaker 4: of people that are affected by this tragedy. So I'm

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Speaker 4: here to listen to learn. How do we make things

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Speaker 4: better so people can get through this. I could only

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Speaker 4: imagine the horror of not only the people that can't

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Speaker 4: miss it, but all the people that also were drowned

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Speaker 4: by this horrible storm. So we're here to listen and learn,

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Speaker 4: and it's a thrill to have live on in doctor Perry,

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Speaker 4: and for all you Texans out there, I think doctor

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Speaker 4: Perry is at heart a Texan.

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Speaker 2: Very true, Doctor Perry.

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Speaker 1: I'll let you start with just what are the first steps?

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Speaker 1: Like how does a community start to rebuild? So many

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Speaker 1: people have questions like what do I say? You know,

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Speaker 1: how do I show up? I'm afraid to say the

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Speaker 1: wrong thing, I'm afraid to do something that'll make it worse.

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Speaker 1: But what is kind of a first response we can

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Speaker 1: do as a community, and what should we be rallying

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Speaker 1: for right now?

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Speaker 2: Well, let me just start with a tiny little bit

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Speaker 2: of education about the way human beings deal with stress.

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Speaker 2: And I don't want to get too too academic, but

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Speaker 2: one of the things that we know is that the

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Speaker 2: feelings that we have, you know, the anxiety, the despair,

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Speaker 2: all of these things are related to essentially our body

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Speaker 2: responding to something that's atypical. It's outside of sort of

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Speaker 2: what should happen. We all are walking around with an

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Speaker 2: internal expectation about the way the world works, and when

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden things don't work that way and catastrophic,

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Speaker 2: horrific things happen, it challenges us and it makes us

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Speaker 2: feel unsettled and disregulated and so forth. And now, the

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Speaker 2: impact of these kinds of events is going to be

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Speaker 2: very different depending upon how close you were to what

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Speaker 2: we would consider ground zero, right And what we know

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Speaker 2: is that if you are in sort of the middle

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Speaker 2: of this bullseye at ground zero, and you lost a child,

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Speaker 2: or you lost a home, or you watched someone die

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Speaker 2: or drown, the degree of distress you feel is going

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Speaker 2: to be much greater than if you knew somebody who

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Speaker 2: knew somebody who had a kid who went there. Now

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Speaker 2: that's not to say that that separate, kind of disconnected

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Speaker 2: experience is not distressing. It's just that what we've learned

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Speaker 2: is that the closer you are to the event, the

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Speaker 2: more likely you are to have these profound responses that

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Speaker 2: will last over a long period of time and this

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Speaker 2: echo effect, you know, this sort of the ground zero,

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Speaker 2: then the first responders, and then the people who knew

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Speaker 2: and lived with the individuals and ground zero. If you

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Speaker 2: start to do the numbers and you think about traditional

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Speaker 2: therapeutic work being oh, we're going to go see a

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Speaker 2: therapist one our week. They're going to help us with

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Speaker 2: whatever it is that we do. If you have only

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Speaker 2: two people, two people in the middle of this ground zero,

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Speaker 2: two children who watched witnessed a terrible thing, and then

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Speaker 2: there's twelve people that are kind of in the next

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Speaker 2: circle out who are first responders who loved and lived

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Speaker 2: with the people that died. If you just have two people,

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Speaker 2: what that means is by the time everybody who's been

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Speaker 2: impacted by that, it presents with mental health challenges. If

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Speaker 2: you used a traditional one hour a week therapy, you

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Speaker 2: would need twenty two therapists dedicating fifty percent of their

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Speaker 2: full week just to meet the needs of that event.

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Speaker 2: So now if you look at if you look at

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Speaker 2: the ground zero of this event, we're talking about an

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Speaker 2: excess of ninety thousand clinicians that would be required to

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Speaker 2: do one hour a week of mental health service to

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Speaker 2: help meet these mental health needs. And so what that

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Speaker 2: tells us right right there, is that our conventional medical

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Speaker 2: model system isn't going to work. We can't just sort

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Speaker 2: of rely on that traditional mental health system to meet

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Speaker 2: these needs. And so now that that's sort of sobering.

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Speaker 2: But the good news is what we have found, and

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Speaker 2: what many other people have been seeing over the years,

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Speaker 2: is that what really heals people is other people, not

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Speaker 2: necessarily other a therapist. Right. We heal from these tiny

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Speaker 2: little doses of kindness, of thoughtfulness, of understanding, of listening,

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Speaker 2: of giving a hug, of being present, of bringing a meal.

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Speaker 2: You know, these things provide this relational regulation of these

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Speaker 2: systems in our body that make us feel connected and

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Speaker 2: safe again. And this is what you know, this is

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Speaker 2: what I think is going to happen in Texas. I mean,

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Speaker 2: there's Texas has got so many great communities and so

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Speaker 2: many people who are capable of being present, attentive, attuned,

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Speaker 2: which basically means should I say something now or should

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Speaker 2: I not say something? Should I give you hugs? Should

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Speaker 2: I not give you a hug? And let you know,

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Speaker 2: doctor macndale, I'm going to call you doctor macanville until

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Speaker 2: you start calling me Bruce. All right, So you brought

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Speaker 2: it up that this being present for other people I

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Speaker 2: think is going to be a really important thing. And

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Speaker 2: you know, one of the things that Mac You've always done.

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Speaker 2: You have always created context to help people come together.

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Speaker 2: Excuse me, whether it's in your store or supporting other events,

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Speaker 2: You've done things that help bring people together. This power

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Speaker 2: of proximity is one of the most powerful healing things

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Speaker 2: that can happen. And what we've seen is in the beginning,

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Speaker 2: like when this happens, people are willing to be uncomfortable

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Speaker 2: in proximity with other people who are hurting. But over

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Speaker 2: time it gets a little bit more uncomfortable because, as

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Speaker 2: you said, you don't really know what to say. You

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Speaker 2: don't know should I bring it up, should it not

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Speaker 2: bring it up? How do I handle this? And so

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Speaker 2: in two weeks, three weeks, two months, three months. That's

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Speaker 2: when the people are going to that are most impacted

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Speaker 2: by this are going to be struggling the most because

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Speaker 2: people feel uncomfortable and they and a lot of people

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Speaker 2: just flee, you know, they just don't know what to say,

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Speaker 2: or they end up saying something that is makes everybody

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Speaker 2: feel uncomfortable, and it's this is a very challenging situation.

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Speaker 1: So what are some of the first steps if you're

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Speaker 1: a family member who has potentially if you're a family

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Speaker 1: member who's lost the loved one directly, what can they

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Speaker 1: do right now for themselves? What would you recommend as

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Speaker 1: if you were their punishment?

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Speaker 2: So the first thing, and we talk about this is

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Speaker 2: part of what we you know, this is part of

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Speaker 2: what we're doing right now is education, teaching people about

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Speaker 2: what what are the normal, absolutely healthy things that will

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Speaker 2: predictably happen when you are in catastrophic trauma. And again

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Speaker 2: because the unknown things that we're not used to make

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Speaker 2: us feel really uncomfortable and more distressed, and because humans

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Speaker 2: are very contagious to others. If you feel like really

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Speaker 2: are really really really really worried that they don't bring

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Speaker 2: it up, they don't ever talk about it, or if

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Speaker 2: you're really really worried that they're not sleeping, or that

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Speaker 2: they seem sad, or whatever it is that you're worried about,

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Speaker 2: you'll just get more disregulated, which means that they'll get

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Speaker 2: more disregulated, which means they'll be less likely to be

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Speaker 2: It just leads to this very uncomfortable interaction. So the

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Speaker 2: first thing is education. Learn about what are the normal

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Speaker 2: things that happen when people experience traumatic events, And there's

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Speaker 2: a couple of ways to do that. We have some

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Speaker 2: materials that will make available to you and to people

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Speaker 2: who are listening about just simple steps about how do

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Speaker 2: you talk about death to a child? You know, what's

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Speaker 2: a reasonable way to explain what's happening to their bodies.

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Speaker 2: Normalize the fact that they're going to have trouble with sleep,

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Speaker 2: things are going to pop into their heads that are

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Speaker 2: going to feel really make them feel really uncomfortable. And

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Speaker 2: the more the adults and others around the people at

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Speaker 2: ground zero in this first layer out, the more they

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Speaker 2: get these relational supports and education, the more likely they

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Speaker 2: are to get back towards a normal level of regulation.

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Speaker 1: Earlier, I really loved earlier when you said to us,

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Speaker 1: you said you know we should be cautious pathologizing every

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Speaker 1: symptom right now, and instead understand that most of the

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Speaker 1: traumatic responses are normal.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: And I think those of us that have done trauma work,

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Speaker 1: or we understand trauma work, we know that a true

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Speaker 1: PTSD diagnosis doesn't typically happen until six months post a

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Speaker 1: traumatic event, because typical trauma responses are expected.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: One of the things you said earlier was it would

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Speaker 1: be abnormal if people weren't experiencing heavy green, difficulty sleeping, right,

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Speaker 1: some of these symptoms, right.

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Speaker 2: You know, and the your body has these incredible protective

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Speaker 2: mechanisms that help keep us alive, and in situations like this,

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Speaker 2: one of the patterns, sort of one of the coping

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Speaker 2: mechanisms that we use all the time is probably going

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Speaker 2: to be very prominent. And it's we call this dissociation.

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Speaker 2: You know, when your body is in when everybody's kind

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Speaker 2: of heard of the fight or flight response, right, You like,

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Speaker 2: when you really get angry at somebody and you get

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Speaker 2: agitated and you may say something and there's you escalate

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Speaker 2: and you externalize excuse me. But when you are in

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Speaker 2: an inescapably distressing situation, inescapable pain inescapable, almost unthinkable horror.

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Speaker 2: We brought it up, right. I can only think about

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Speaker 2: that for like a millisecond before I go, oh, I

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Speaker 2: get just someone else. I can't even think about a

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Speaker 2: bunch of little girls in those cabins. I can't think

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Speaker 2: about it. So your brain protects you. You dissociate. And

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Speaker 2: so a lot of the people, a lot of the

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Speaker 2: individuals who are dealing with this are going to be robotic.

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Speaker 2: They're going to seem you know, a lot of times

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Speaker 2: people will see them and they will appear to be

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Speaker 2: emotion less, and then that will be misinterpreted and they'll think, oh,

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Speaker 2: that's abnormal, But that's actually in these times that kind

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Speaker 2: of physically exhausted, mentally exhausted, with drawn, disengaged. That's one

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Speaker 2: of the major presentations that people will see. Now, the

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Speaker 2: other thing that can happen is and this is where

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Speaker 2: that the dissociation for the people who are most impacted

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Speaker 2: in three weeks or three months is basically going to

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Speaker 2: allow people to who are uncomfortable dealing with this. They'll think, oh,

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Speaker 2: they're fine, they're coping well. And so that's a real

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Speaker 2: danger point with these families is that the fact that

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Speaker 2: they aren't having these easily observable external symptoms. People kind

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Speaker 2: of go, oh, look at they're doing. Find them on

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Speaker 2: the lawn and they say hi. They get the normal

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Speaker 2: greetings that you would normally be with a neighbor, but

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Speaker 2: if you could see inside, you would see the tragic

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Speaker 2: sadness and distress and the ruminations and all the kinds

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Speaker 2: of stuff. It's going to be what they have to

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Speaker 2: deal with. And so that combination leads to this unfortunate

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Speaker 2: period at about three to six months where people kind

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Speaker 2: of get back into their norm right. Things are getting rebuilt,

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Speaker 2: you know, you have every everybody has their the inertia

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Speaker 2: of their busy life, and so all of these folks

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Speaker 2: are no longer at the forefront of your mind. And

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Speaker 2: it can be a week or two weeks or three

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Speaker 2: weeks and realize, oh, I haven't touched base with so

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Speaker 2: and so, and a lot of times they feel abandoned, right,

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Speaker 2: and it's this is this is why I hope we'll

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Speaker 2: keep doing this kind of thing. You know, we want

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Speaker 2: to you know, we've talked about this before we went live,

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Speaker 2: but we really would like to be present for people

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Speaker 2: who are dealing with this for the duration, not just

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Speaker 2: a one shot podcast. They're going to need psycho education.

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Speaker 2: And and right now, one of the sort of one

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Speaker 2: of the hard things is that the people that are

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Speaker 2: most impacted by this they can't even they can't learn

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Speaker 2: anything right now. They're two overwhelmed. And it's such an

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Speaker 2: odd disconnect because this is when we want to give

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Speaker 2: them the most Oh, here, read this, do this, we'll

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Speaker 2: do this, We'll have it. They're least capable of benefiting

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Speaker 2: from this stuff. Now. We have all these volunteer people

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Speaker 2: that are going to be there, Volunteer therapists, volunteer walk

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Speaker 2: around in every one of these big disasters. This is

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Speaker 2: what happens, all kinds of supports upfront, and then as

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Speaker 2: people get back to the normal lives and people's needs,

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Speaker 2: that the people infected by the trauma, their needs increase.

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Speaker 2: There's all of a sudden, these these slopes intercept and

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Speaker 2: there's a point when you know the need is completely unmet,

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Speaker 2: and we leave it to the mental health system, which

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Speaker 2: is already overwhelmed, getting in a point where.

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Speaker 1: Everything Yeah, and so I think that leads me to

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Speaker 1: my next question of so what can we do right

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Speaker 1: now for those strong, for those suffering, for those either

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Speaker 1: with children or with family members. Like, what does showing

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Speaker 1: up right now look like? Because, as you said, we're

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Speaker 1: going to do many more of these and we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about how we show up later when processing

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Speaker 1: can happen. And that's something I've talked a lot about.

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Speaker 1: Is you know my area of expertise, which is come

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Speaker 1: to behavioral therapy. So it's really more of anxiety and

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Speaker 1: trauma treatment. We can do that work, like I specialize

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Speaker 1: in that, but it wouldn't be useful to be doing

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Speaker 1: that right now. Right no one is ready to learn

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Speaker 1: how to deal with trauma, how to do it right

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Speaker 1: that they're not there yet, and so the needs are

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Speaker 1: very different now than they'll be in three or six months.

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Speaker 1: So what can we do right now?

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Speaker 2: So this is where max magic always sort of comes in.

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Speaker 2: Just knowing that somebody is thinking about you. It's helpful

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Speaker 2: for people knowing that there is some place that they

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Speaker 2: can get something, that there are people that care about them,

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Speaker 2: that there are people that there whatever it is. Different

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Speaker 2: people will have different needs, but that that is a

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Speaker 2: reflection in the beginning of what I would consider being present.

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Speaker 2: That's the first thing is being present, and it doesn't

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Speaker 2: necessarily mean being side by side physical proximity, but just

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Speaker 2: a text kind of thinking about you, you know, or

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Speaker 2: signing up for kind of A lot of these families

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Speaker 2: will need meals. A lot of these families will need

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Speaker 2: people literally to help them figure out how to prepare,

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Speaker 2: how to contact a funeral home. You know, these are

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Speaker 2: young families. They haven't done in this stuff. Usually they

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Speaker 2: don't know how to do all. All people that need

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Speaker 2: can really in a lot of different ways if you're present.

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Speaker 2: And so this is the first thing I would recommend

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Speaker 2: is that everybody kind of sit down and go, all right,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to make a list of who do I

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Speaker 2: know has been impacted by this? Do I have a neighbor,

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Speaker 2: do I have a relative? Was it my family? And

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Speaker 2: when you kind of make that catalog of how people

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Speaker 2: are impacted, you know, even if let's say that you

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Speaker 2: are pretty proximal, you're involved in searching, and you're involved

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Speaker 2: in recovery, you're involved in that, at some point you

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Speaker 2: want to begin to think about, all right, who's being

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Speaker 2: impacted by this? Is my family? How are they being

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Speaker 2: impacted by the fact that I'm gone all the time

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Speaker 2: doing this And I don't want to talk about it.

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Speaker 2: How are the people that I have talked to impacted?

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Speaker 2: You know whose children I found? And begin to think

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Speaker 2: about how can I have a little light touch, you know,

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Speaker 2: Can I got their phone number? Can I just text

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Speaker 2: them and say, you know, this is a hard time

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Speaker 2: thinking about it. That's it light Dutch. But those we heal.

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Speaker 2: This is the thing about I got to do a

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Speaker 2: little biology thing right here. When you think about the brain,

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Speaker 2: the systems and the brain and the way they change

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Speaker 2: in all of our physiological systems. They don't change because

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Speaker 2: we activate them for one hour a week, right, They

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Speaker 2: change because we activate them in tiny little doses all

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Speaker 2: throughout the week. So if you think about the and

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Speaker 2: the powerful thing about this is that a lot of

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Speaker 2: we don't know the right thing to say. I can

434
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 2: tell you. I can guarantee you that you will say

435
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:36,199
Speaker 2: the wrong thing and you're going to rupture, but then

436
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 2: you repair and the very same thing you say on

437
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,719
Speaker 2: Sunday night, if you say that on Monday morning, that's

438
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 2: the right thing. If you say it's Sunday night, it's

439
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,360
Speaker 2: the wrong thing. You say it again on Monday afternoon,

440
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 2: it's the wrong thing. Everybody is in a mess right

441
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 2: now and over time. What it is is that you're

442
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 2: willing to day there and keep saying be present. Don't

443
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 2: once you realize that you blew it, don't flee. Just repair.

444
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:16,679
Speaker 2: All relationships are about rupture and repair. Rupture and repair.

445
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 2: Think about the people that you love the most. How

446
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 2: often you say I didn't mean that. What I meant

447
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 2: was it's all about coming back together. But when people

448
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 2: recognize that you're there, that's a huge step. So being present,

449
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 2: being attentive, trying to meet the tiny little needs that

450
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 2: somebody might have, like listen, can I get you some coffee?

451
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,200
Speaker 2: You know, whatever it is you know. And again Max's

452
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 2: been a genius at that, creating environments where people feel

453
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 2: they can go to, where they can have some they

454
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 2: can be around people who will be sensitive and caring

455
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 2: that the fact that there are the there are you know,

456
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 2: the mac famous, that there's a famous person, a powerful,

457
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 2: famous person in Texas who cares about us, and that's

458
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 2: that means something to people.

459
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 1: So Dad, I'd love to hear, like what your call

460
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,160
Speaker 1: to action would be for obviously yourself, but also other

461
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,159
Speaker 1: community members and business owners, and you know, what are

462
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 1: ways you've shown up in the past that you feel

463
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:27,159
Speaker 1: like we can continue to show up. And one thing

464
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,160
Speaker 1: we learned is it's not about showing up and doing

465
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 1: one event right, It's about continuing to show up and

466
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 1: continuing to do those events.

467
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 4: Learn from I could learn from doctor Bruce. I shouldn't

468
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 4: call him doctor Perry Bruce about you know, how to

469
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 4: the communities need to be rebuilt. But more important than

470
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 4: bricks and mortar is how do we help these How

471
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 4: do we let people know that we're here for them,

472
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 4: even if it just means saying hello or sending them

473
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 4: a video, let them know we're caring about them. It's

474
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 4: because there's so many people affected by this, and like

475
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 4: what Bruce said is, how do we find these people

476
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 4: to say, hey, we care about you. If you need anything,

477
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 4: give me a give me a call. I know it's

478
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 4: hell going through it right now. How do we how

479
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 4: do we say that to these thousands of people that

480
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 4: are just devastated. The stories go on and on. I

481
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 4: heard some story yesterday about they'd sent their child to

482
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 4: a different camp. They were vacationing down there on the river,

483
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 4: and the entire families wiped out except for the child.

484
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 4: So how do we how do we how do we

485
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 4: reach out and touch these people in a in a

486
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 4: way that's thoughtful and caring, And just like you said, Bruce,

487
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 4: how do we stay with them from from now till

488
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 4: they face Christmas Day without their loved ones.

489
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's I mean that part is the biggest challenge

490
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 2: that we've as a field. I think that we've learned

491
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 2: a lot about kind of the acute response and how

492
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 2: to kind of come in and do you know, early

493
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 2: intervention stuff, but we've failed miserably at what you just

494
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 2: talked about, that at staying with families and helping them

495
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 2: get through the waxing and waning of distress. And we

496
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 2: just have to get better. The good news is that

497
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 2: the best if somebody is part of a community of faith,

498
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 2: if somebody is part of a healthy neighborhood, if somebody's

499
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 2: part of some social structure that that group of people,

500
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 2: whether it's just your immediate family or your extended family,

501
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 2: or your neighborhood or your church community, whatever it is,

502
00:30:55,960 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 2: the healing power in that group is just remarkable. And

503
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 2: part of what we try to do is help the

504
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 2: individuals in those groups. Number one, like I said, we

505
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 2: talked about earlier psycho education learn about you know, you

506
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 2: can learn about what happens to the body, what are

507
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 2: predictable responses. You can teach people that listen, you're going

508
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 2: to be completely frick and exhausted. You're going to think

509
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 2: that you can go back to work after six weeks,

510
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 2: but you're only going to be able to do about

511
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 2: twenty five percent of what you normally would do, and

512
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 2: then you're going to start being hard on yourself and

513
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 2: your employers aren't going to understand it. So the more

514
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 2: we can educate employers, we can educate the schools, we

515
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 2: can educate the community members about what are the normal

516
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 2: trajectories out of these experiences, so that people have, Like

517
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 2: at Saint John's, you know, there will be an impact

518
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 2: on the ability of some kids to learn as efficiently

519
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 2: as they did the year before. And so if you

520
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 2: are aware of that and you pay attention to that,

521
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 2: you can actually make the kinds of accommodations that help

522
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 2: in the children. Individual children kind of get through this

523
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 2: in a better way. But unfortunately, what we tend to

524
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 2: do is that we tend to not understand these things.

525
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 2: So we then compound that the problem by having expectations.

526
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 2: You know, you're just not cutting it at work, Tom,

527
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 2: and you forget oh yeah, six months ago, you do

528
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 2: child around only. Yeah, that's right, but you got to

529
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 2: you got to get this warehouse cleaned out. You know,

530
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 2: somebody's got to do it. And so we if we

531
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 2: can educate the employers, if we can educate the schools,

532
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 2: if we can educate the faith communities, I think there

533
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 2: will be more opportunities for these understanding moments that are

534
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 2: truly therapeutic and and the burden for formal therapy will drop.

535
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 2: And that's kind of what we need. That's what we

536
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 2: have done in Turkey when there was this huge earthquake,

537
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 2: and so we've done in a lot of other places

538
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 2: where we're trying to help the male health community understand that. Listen,

539
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 2: you have a role, but it's more as a conductor.

540
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 2: You know, you're not playing any of the instruments in

541
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 2: the orchestra. But to make this therapeutic sort of music,

542
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 2: somebody's got to play the trumpet, somebody's got to play

543
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 2: the violin, somebody's got to play the drums at the

544
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 2: right time. And you know about this stuff. So you

545
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 2: get them all on the same page and you direct this.

546
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 2: You're the conductor. You don't have to make all the music.

547
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I love kind of twofold here, which is that?

548
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 1: And that leads me to the next question and point

549
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 1: is what can communities do? And I love to hear

550
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 1: that actually the greatest strength is going to come in communities, right, Churches, schools,

551
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 1: groups getting together and being able to support as a

552
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: group is such an impactful thing when people are going

553
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 1: through this. I live in the Heights and so are

554
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 1: all of our trees.

555
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 2: Right.

556
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 1: We put blue ribbons for Greta, who was one of

557
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 1: the little girls from the Heights who died at Camp Mystic,

558
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 1: And it's just the little things you can do as

559
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 1: a community to support the tragic loss that's happening. But

560
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 1: also knowing that that we all know that's not enough, right,

561
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 1: that's a way to show we care, but we want

562
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 1: to do more. And I've gotten so many questions from

563
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 1: community leaders, school counselors, right, leaders of like what do

564
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 1: we do now? And what do we do next? And

565
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 1: so I think for us to talk about what can

566
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 1: schools do right now? I know, for example, Saint John's

567
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:39,760
Speaker 1: Kincaid Memorial and Timbergrove, these places where there was loss,

568
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 1: they are finding ways to come together, have prayer, visuals,

569
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 1: do community events. But it's summer, you know, so it's

570
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 1: a little bit more challenging and difficult. But what can

571
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 1: they do now? Knowing that, we will do more of

572
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,800
Speaker 1: these episodes to talk about what they should do next.

573
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,319
Speaker 1: And we all know that in the fall, when they're

574
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 1: classmates and their parents are returning to school with other

575
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 1: kids in different and in different settings, right, the needs

576
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,799
Speaker 1: will drastically change. But today, what can gallery do? What

577
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 1: can other business owners do? What can churches do? What

578
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:11,399
Speaker 1: can schools do?

579
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 2: Yep. So one of the big things that we've seen,

580
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 2: and a lot of the feedback we've gotten from families

581
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 2: impacted by things like this, is that that communication is terrible.

582
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:27,919
Speaker 2: You know, they don't they don't feel like whether it's

583
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 2: the whatever organizations gathering the resources or whatever is available

584
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:37,879
Speaker 2: out there, they don't hear about it until later. And

585
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 2: so we always recommend kind of making an impact map,

586
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,839
Speaker 2: a social impact map. Now this obviously not everybody's going

587
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 2: to do that, but if you are the head of

588
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 2: a church, if you are involved in this out of school,

589
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 2: you really need to make a social impact map, which

590
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 2: is like who was impacted in our school, Who is

591
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 2: like plausibly going to be impacted, you know, the parents,

592
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 2: the relatives, the friends, the neighbors, and actually have some

593
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 2: way to just be aware. Like if you don't know

594
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 2: who is impacted, you are you're not going to have

595
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 2: a clue about what to do. So the first thing

596
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 2: is make people in positions in organizations, with the position

597
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 2: of responsibility or authority, make a social make a sort

598
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 2: of a contact map. Now you can do that if

599
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 2: even if you have a group of friends, right and

600
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 2: you have five, six, seven, eight friends, and you know

601
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:37,439
Speaker 2: somebody in that circle was impacted, you think about who

602
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 2: is on my social impact map, and the least littlest

603
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 2: thing you can do is begin to communicate with them tiny,

604
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 2: whether it's through text or send them a card or

605
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 2: just something. Begin communication and contact. And that's the first thing.

606
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 2: The second thing is once you have an awareness of

607
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 2: who in your sphere of influence has been impacted, then

608
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:09,239
Speaker 2: you educate yourself about what are some predictable things that

609
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 2: we're going to run into and that you can do

610
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 2: that through. There's a variety of print materials and multimedia

611
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:19,799
Speaker 2: content that are available. We have some and we can

612
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 2: make some you know, talk about how to make some

613
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 2: of them available. But there is content that's helpful if

614
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 2: you are completely uneducated about mental health stuff. There's content

615
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:32,720
Speaker 2: that's helpful if you are in the mental health field.

616
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 2: And so it's out there, tends to not be particularly

617
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 2: well organized necessarily, and sometimes it's a very light touch content,

618
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,839
Speaker 2: which means that you know you're dealing with a specific

619
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:48,320
Speaker 2: complex thing. Like Mac just described a really unique situation

620
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 2: of a child orphaned by his parents suddenly and catastrophically

621
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 2: being gone. That's very different than an intact family having

622
00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 2: a child who was in danger and saw their you know,

623
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 2: their friends swept away. That's a whole that's a different

624
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 2: set of issues. And so part of the dilemma with

625
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 2: the psycho educational content is that when you write it

626
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,399
Speaker 2: like you end up writing it sort of that's kind

627
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:25,839
Speaker 2: of generally helpful, but it's not specifically helpful. And so

628
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 2: the benefit of this kind of podcast is that if

629
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 2: people learn about what we're doing over time, they will

630
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 2: be able to have specific queries about what do I

631
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:43,759
Speaker 2: do in this situation, and we can have a conversation

632
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 2: about a specific set of concrete things to do, which

633
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 2: may end up, you know, directing them to people in

634
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 2: their community or people can help them directly. But once

635
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 2: you have the social contact map who's impacted, reach out

636
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 2: to them in little ways, mobilize the other people you

637
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 2: know who will have concerns about them, and then think

638
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 2: about like do they need meals, do they need help

639
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 2: cleaning up? Do they need you know, what are the

640
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 2: concrete needs that they have, and then their emotional social needs,

641
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 2: mental health needs will become apparent over time, But in

642
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 2: the beginning it's very concrete stuff to.

643
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 1: Stick more concrete less.

644
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:30,319
Speaker 4: How would you create a community event for you know,

645
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:34,720
Speaker 4: right now that would at least show people that everybody

646
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 4: always thinking and praying and caring for them.

647
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:41,239
Speaker 2: Well, that's a good question. I'd have to give that

648
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 2: a little bit of thought, because I do think that,

649
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 2: you know, one of the things I've just just off

650
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 2: the top of my head is that I really think

651
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 2: that maybe a community event for the helpers, not necessarily

652
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:59,399
Speaker 2: for the people that are being impacted yet, so even

653
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 2: a community about all, right, let who wants to help,

654
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 2: because there's a lot of people out there, and can

655
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 2: we give them the level of specific sort of psycho

656
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 2: education so they feel a little bit armed and they

657
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 2: can actually utilize the available print and multimedia content a

658
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 2: little bit better. That's what we would do as an organization.

659
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:28,840
Speaker 2: We kind of go all right, listen, I we would

660
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 2: help the helpers basically.

661
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:36,799
Speaker 1: So my next question, yeah, yeah, another question I have

662
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:39,760
Speaker 1: that leads me to is what should we not be doing?

663
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 1: I think a lot of us are wondering, like, what

664
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 1: are things we shouldn't be doing right now? What are

665
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:47,800
Speaker 1: things we should what are statements or comments we should avoid?

666
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,879
Speaker 1: And people get so nervous it becomes this analysis paralysis

667
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:52,919
Speaker 1: of like I don't I know I need to do something,

668
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 1: but I don't know what to do, so I won't

669
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 1: do anything at all.

670
00:40:55,560 --> 00:41:01,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's such a common phenomenon. Here's what you have

671
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 2: to do. If you really want to help, you have

672
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 2: to recognize that you're going to feel incredibly uncomfortable this.

673
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 2: Human beings are relational creatures, right. If you run into

674
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 2: somebody who's like, really enthusiastic, pretty soon you feel better.

675
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,800
Speaker 2: If you run into somebody who's really down and always negative,

676
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 2: if you spend a lot of time with them, pretty

677
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:23,759
Speaker 2: soon you start to see the world in that way too.

678
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 2: And so what I think we really need to do

679
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 2: is recognize this relational contagion is so powerful and but

680
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:40,400
Speaker 2: what it does during traumatic events is that when somebody

681
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 2: feels so much pain, I mean you suddenly start crying.

682
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:48,360
Speaker 2: Here almost twice on this podcast. You have to be

683
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:53,440
Speaker 2: able to tolerate that distress. Go back in, just go

684
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:57,320
Speaker 2: back in. You have then don't go back to your

685
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:02,880
Speaker 2: where you feel safe and comfortable and not distressed. It's uncomfortable.

686
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 2: You have to recognize you're gonna feel helpless. You're gonna

687
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 2: feel just like you here. I am, I like an

688
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 2: expert in this, and I can guarantee you if I

689
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 2: spend ten minutes with one of these families, I feel

690
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:20,919
Speaker 2: completely helpless, like a moron. But if I stay, there'll

691
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,839
Speaker 2: be a moment when they'll say something and I'll go, yeah,

692
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 2: it's pretty normal to be completely exhausted. You're going to

693
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 2: feel very tired, and that's okay, and I can then

694
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 2: start to go from something that I know and help them.

695
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 2: But in the beginning, it's like, there's it's such an

696
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:46,840
Speaker 2: emotional you know, how do you how do you interact

697
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 2: with a weeping parent who's trying to deal with the

698
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:59,279
Speaker 2: horror of their childlife. You got to stay, got to

699
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,800
Speaker 2: be present. You're gonna be uncomfortable, you're gonna feel incompetent,

700
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:06,799
Speaker 2: you're gonna feel paralyzed. But if you stay, you'll start

701
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,879
Speaker 2: to see little openings where they can hear you, where

702
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 2: they can accept a kind hug, where you can get

703
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 2: them coffee. You know, you'll find little ways this present attentive. Right, wait,

704
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:23,760
Speaker 2: watch what's going on? Listen, watch, and then be attuned.

705
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 2: And when you're tuned in that moment, you kind of

706
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 2: go all right, this, let me give you something, you know,

707
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:36,799
Speaker 2: and then you know it's that's what helps. And it's

708
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:41,799
Speaker 2: because of the discomfort of traumatic pain. That's part of

709
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:46,280
Speaker 2: what drives people away. It's also part of what makes

710
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 2: people want this family that's in pain to be resilient.

711
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:56,840
Speaker 2: We tend to use the term resilience to basically protect

712
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 2: ourselves a lot. Right, The reality is, in order for

713
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 2: them to demonstrate resilience, they're gonna have to go through

714
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 2: all kinds of hell. And yes, maybe they'll demonstrate resilience,

715
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:11,880
Speaker 2: but that's gonna wear down. Resilience is a is a

716
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:15,719
Speaker 2: capability that can be built up and then it can

717
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 2: be worn down. And I can guarantee you the most

718
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 2: resilient family that you know that this connect had, belongs

719
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 2: to a community of faith, has extended family that's supporting them,

720
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 2: has all kinds of economic resources. If they had a

721
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 2: kid that drowned there, their resilience is gonna get worn down,

722
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:33,759
Speaker 2: and in six months they're gonna they're just gonna be struggling.

723
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 2: They'll struggle through the whole time, but it will be

724
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 2: easy for us to say, oh, they're resilient. Look at

725
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:43,720
Speaker 2: that she's and you'll see stuff like, oh, she laughed

726
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:48,279
Speaker 2: at a joke. That doesn't mean she's healed from the

727
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:49,720
Speaker 2: trauma of her child drowning.

728
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 1: And how do people start to even think about, like

729
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:58,240
Speaker 1: what to say when you can tell someone is struggling

730
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 1: with guilt, right, whatever that guilt might be. I mean,

731
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:04,400
Speaker 1: in particular, we know for cantstic kids, the parents you know,

732
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 1: they weren't there, but even other families and everything that's happening,

733
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 1: there's going to be guilt, right. You know, we've heard

734
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 1: stories about you know, one person survived, one didn't during

735
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:18,439
Speaker 1: this flooding event, and you know, so how do we

736
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:21,760
Speaker 1: start to well, I mean, we can't process it for people,

737
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:24,879
Speaker 1: but how how do people start to process and work

738
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 1: through guilt? What can we do to help with that?

739
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:35,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's one of those longer term, sort of cognitive

740
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 2: beliefs that get stuck and is one of the most

741
00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 2: challenging parts of working with people and helping people who've

742
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:47,960
Speaker 2: had this kind of traumatic experience and your brain starts

743
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,400
Speaker 2: to part of what your brain does to kind of

744
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 2: make sense out of stuff like this is you run

745
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:54,319
Speaker 2: through different scenarios if I don't need do this, this,

746
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:56,319
Speaker 2: I shouldn't have done this, or didn't he told me

747
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 2: not to go there, she's too young, and you just

748
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,040
Speaker 2: you can get into these cognitive lives and that's where

749
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 2: therapy actually, you know, lives, the kind of stuff that

750
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 2: actually doctor MC and now the stuff that you do

751
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 2: we would do pretty good here with first names. All right, live,

752
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:11,240
Speaker 2: I'll go back and live.

753
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 1: Thank you. But it is from a trauma, from a

754
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 1: trauma and CBT perspective, like I actually really do know

755
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 1: how to treat that, right, We've done with veterans with PTSD,

756
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 1: people who have experienced mass casualties. All right, but it's

757
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:30,520
Speaker 1: so much later. I don't know how to help people

758
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 1: process it. Right now, I know how to do it

759
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:33,720
Speaker 1: when you're ready for treatment.

760
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:37,000
Speaker 2: So here here's what I'm gonna and again this is

761
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:39,839
Speaker 2: part of that psycho educational thing. So if you think

762
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 2: about the brain upset on triangle, brain right top is

763
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 2: a cortex. Guilt is a cognition. Guilt is a cognition.

764
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:51,719
Speaker 2: Right now, they're not they don't have any They're so

765
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 2: distressed that most of their cortex is kind of shut

766
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:59,760
Speaker 2: down in some way unavailable. So you can say things

767
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:06,000
Speaker 2: and do things that will not contribute to guilt, right,

768
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:10,799
Speaker 2: but late that that has to be dealt with later

769
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:16,279
Speaker 2: on and usually using the kinds of therapeutic tools and

770
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:21,759
Speaker 2: strengths that you that you have. It's a very challenging thing.

771
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 2: And this is where some of the things that parents

772
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:30,360
Speaker 2: here or that people try to say to comfort somebody

773
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 2: actually contributes to guild. Right. You know, there are people

774
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:37,440
Speaker 2: who have just I can't believe some of the horrible

775
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:40,480
Speaker 2: stuff I've seen on that on social media. Just it's

776
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:43,319
Speaker 2: astounding that in our country people would do that. But

777
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 2: it's a whole different conversation. But that you know, there

778
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:51,360
Speaker 2: are people who have religious beliefs that they go everything

779
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 2: happens for you know, they're in a better place. You

780
00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 2: know that that does not help necessarily, And in fact,

781
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:06,359
Speaker 2: for some people, making that statement fits into their own

782
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:09,480
Speaker 2: religious beliefs about what did I do wrong? You know,

783
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 2: how is what I did wrong in my life connected

784
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:17,640
Speaker 2: to this you know event that took my child and

785
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:20,320
Speaker 2: that that kind of guilt is hard to deal with.

786
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:28,799
Speaker 2: So I'm a big fan of this is I think

787
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:34,399
Speaker 2: people need to remember that words in this moment are

788
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:38,279
Speaker 2: not going to be as powerful as just physical proximity.

789
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's favorite. One of his favorite statements that he

790
00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:46,799
Speaker 1: taught us growing up is words whisper action, shout. And

791
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:49,400
Speaker 1: I think that's just so clear here, right as like

792
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 1: you show up, your presence is going to mean a

793
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:53,960
Speaker 1: lot more than what you say. What you say, by

794
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 1: the way, half the time when people are experiencing trauma

795
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:58,760
Speaker 1: isn't even heard, right, they can't.

796
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:00,720
Speaker 2: Exactly.

797
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, about human beings were made to live playing dyeing groups.

798
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:07,920
Speaker 4: For a lot of those people they were camping down

799
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 4: that on the river and they were swept away, so

800
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:16,360
Speaker 4: they might not have a big group of some of

801
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:18,919
Speaker 4: the other ones to support them. How can you reach

802
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 4: out and find those people and help them?

803
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:25,920
Speaker 2: That's a really that's I think that's a great question.

804
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 2: The related to that MAC is that there are a

805
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 2: number of people who had children there who were not

806
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:41,279
Speaker 2: from Texas, and so the awareness and sort of the

807
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:45,080
Speaker 2: mobilization of social supports for these families that are different

808
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:47,160
Speaker 2: parts of the country will not be as great as

809
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:52,880
Speaker 2: it is in Texas. So we found this after a

810
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:58,760
Speaker 2: number of sort of high profile events where for example,

811
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:02,879
Speaker 2: after the Sandy Hooks, several of those families moved out

812
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:07,360
Speaker 2: of state and so they literally had, you know, no

813
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:11,319
Speaker 2: benefit of all of the mobilization of supports and activities

814
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:15,279
Speaker 2: and things that were taking place in Connecticut, and they struggled.

815
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:19,879
Speaker 2: So this is kind of why that social contact map

816
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:24,279
Speaker 2: model is helpful. You know, we always talk to like,

817
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:26,719
Speaker 2: you know, at some point people that are involved in

818
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 2: these camps and people that are involved in the formal

819
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:35,880
Speaker 2: governmental response should create social contact maps like who is

820
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:39,160
Speaker 2: impacted by this? Who are these people? You know, where

821
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 2: do they come from? You know, these people were camping

822
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:44,839
Speaker 2: and the family lives in Oregon. We have to reach

823
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:47,520
Speaker 2: out to them, we have to communicate with them. But

824
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 2: that tends to be poorly done. But that's part of

825
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:53,839
Speaker 2: what has to happen. There has to be an intentional

826
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:59,880
Speaker 2: effort to create a social contact map about who's directly impacted,

827
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 2: who's secondary impacted, whose third degree impacted. And one of

828
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:09,360
Speaker 2: the you know, I have a a I guess it

829
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 2: was just like a presentation that is on our YouTube

830
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 2: channel that I created for colleagues in Turkey where I

831
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:21,200
Speaker 2: talk about this this phenomenon and well, for those of

832
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:23,799
Speaker 2: you who are clinicians, it will have some relevance for

833
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:29,200
Speaker 2: your thinking about and your work with families impacted by

834
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:32,320
Speaker 2: this in Texas. You know, we can make sure that

835
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:34,480
Speaker 2: you get people get links to this and then actually

836
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 2: if we if we do end up having a you know,

837
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:40,920
Speaker 2: as we have more of these, maybe we can have

838
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:45,759
Speaker 2: sort of a little bit of a presentation about some

839
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 2: of these concepts for the clinical teams and responders.

840
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 1: We would love that. So one question I get a

841
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:56,879
Speaker 1: lot to go ahead, I'm just going to say one

842
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:59,440
Speaker 1: question I'm getting a lot is kind of twofold. It's

843
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 1: from parents of their kids go to school with someone

844
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:06,400
Speaker 1: who was lost in the floods or family members impacted.

845
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 1: And one of the big questions, you know that I'm

846
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:11,920
Speaker 1: hearing a lot is how do I support my child, right,

847
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:14,439
Speaker 1: how do I have conversations about what happened to their friend?

848
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:16,319
Speaker 1: How do I help them process it? How are they

849
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 1: going to show back up in the classroom? And also

850
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 1: when do I know or start to think about signs

851
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 1: and symptoms are normal versus I need to get my

852
00:52:26,239 --> 00:52:28,920
Speaker 1: kid their own clinician, I need to get them in therapy. Right,

853
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:31,200
Speaker 1: And we know there were seven hundred and fifty kids

854
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:34,800
Speaker 1: camping at Mystic, right, Yes, there is a huge impact

855
00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 1: in that group of young campers that witness things firsthand,

856
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 1: that experienced it. And as we've talked about, right, the

857
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:43,800
Speaker 1: impact of the flooding was not only limited to Mystic,

858
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 1: It's tons of families, tons of individuals, right, eighty plus people.

859
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:50,880
Speaker 1: And so how do we have conversations with kids about

860
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:53,560
Speaker 1: what they're experiencing? How do we normalize that? But what

861
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:55,279
Speaker 1: can we be doing for them right now? Because I

862
00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:58,319
Speaker 1: think one of my biggest concerns with the clinician is

863
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 1: that it's summer. I worry that these kids struggling or

864
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:05,359
Speaker 1: sitting at home alone and a lot of them are

865
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:09,680
Speaker 1: not in communities and in school and in classrooms right

866
00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:12,319
Speaker 1: now to have each other. And so yeah, I'm just

867
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:15,320
Speaker 1: curious what parents and caregivers can do and be looking

868
00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 1: out for.

869
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:22,800
Speaker 2: We wrote very brief kind of ten point thing about

870
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:27,640
Speaker 2: talking to children about traumatic death, and a lot of

871
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:31,480
Speaker 2: the key elements in that are things that would be

872
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:34,400
Speaker 2: helpful for parents and any adult talking to kids about

873
00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:37,280
Speaker 2: something like this, and I again, we can make it available.

874
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:41,000
Speaker 2: There's a there's a very like a one page version

875
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 2: of it started of being distributed by in curial public schools,

876
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:49,319
Speaker 2: and there are some other some a little bit more

877
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:51,839
Speaker 2: deeper detail in a couple of things, and we can

878
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:57,880
Speaker 2: make that available. But the real key is this is

879
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:02,800
Speaker 2: is to talk about it, focus on the developmental age

880
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:06,239
Speaker 2: of the child, make it clear to the child that

881
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:09,080
Speaker 2: you're not afraid to talk about this. It's that it's

882
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:12,360
Speaker 2: like you're not so overwhelmed about it that you that

883
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:14,720
Speaker 2: it's a secret or it's something that you can't talk about,

884
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:17,720
Speaker 2: but the don't. You don't have to go into great detail.

885
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:23,600
Speaker 2: Just talk about it and then invite the child to

886
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:25,520
Speaker 2: talk with you about it anytime they want to talk

887
00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:30,960
Speaker 2: about it, and give them control over how they bring

888
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:33,440
Speaker 2: it up and when they bring it up, how long

889
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 2: they talk about it. Because part of what will happen

890
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:39,680
Speaker 2: is if just like I said, I mean, I can

891
00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:42,400
Speaker 2: only handle this for like three or four seconds before

892
00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:46,480
Speaker 2: I'm like ready to break down, and I'm very distant

893
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:52,480
Speaker 2: from ground zero, so to speak. So children, when they

894
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:54,720
Speaker 2: talk about it or bring it up with a parent,

895
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:56,959
Speaker 2: usually what they'll do is they'll bring up a little

896
00:54:57,000 --> 00:55:00,640
Speaker 2: bit of a fear or a thought or a question,

897
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:04,000
Speaker 2: and then the parent will be like, oh my god,

898
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:05,879
Speaker 2: I need to talk about it. They need this sort

899
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:07,960
Speaker 2: of event, they need to do whatever, and we tend

900
00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:10,680
Speaker 2: to sort of dig a little bit more, which makes

901
00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:13,839
Speaker 2: them feel a little bit more uncomfortable. So the whole

902
00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:15,480
Speaker 2: idea is kind of back to what I said earlier

903
00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:21,160
Speaker 2: is tiny little doses. It's knowledge and regulation and change

904
00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:26,120
Speaker 2: in the brain happens with lots of tiny little doses.

905
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:31,520
Speaker 2: And so they'll have a question, answer the question, and

906
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:33,319
Speaker 2: they'll just kind of wander off. It's sort of like

907
00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:37,479
Speaker 2: those of you who've ever dealt with kids and they're

908
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:42,480
Speaker 2: curious about sex right now, you know, five or six

909
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:44,560
Speaker 2: seven year old child will come up and ask a question,

910
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:48,399
Speaker 2: and you know you're like, WHOA, okay, So then you

911
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:53,480
Speaker 2: start this big elaborate explanation and they just walk away.

912
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:58,080
Speaker 2: Oh okay. They didn't want that full explanation. They just

913
00:55:58,160 --> 00:56:00,520
Speaker 2: kind of want okay, that's a nice a topic to

914
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:04,280
Speaker 2: get mom and dad kind of stirred up, and that's interesting,

915
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:08,399
Speaker 2: and they walk off. So and then they'll come back

916
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 2: later and they'll get more elaboration and more elaboration. But

917
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:14,880
Speaker 2: that's not the time to give them the birds and

918
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:17,759
Speaker 2: the beast talk. You know, when they're a little kid

919
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:20,399
Speaker 2: and they come up and they ask about a body part,

920
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:25,120
Speaker 2: the same thing's going to happen with this. They'll come

921
00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:27,839
Speaker 2: up and go they'll ask about death. You know, where

922
00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:32,360
Speaker 2: do you go? What happens? And it'll be like a

923
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:37,920
Speaker 2: big question, but it doesn't need a big answer. And

924
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:40,759
Speaker 2: that's part of what you need to do is stay regulated.

925
00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:44,279
Speaker 2: Give them something to hang on to and to kind

926
00:56:44,280 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 2: of mull around with, and they'll wander off and then

927
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:49,920
Speaker 2: if they want more, they'll come back. Give Giving control

928
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:53,520
Speaker 2: of individuals to process this stuff is really powerful and important.

929
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:56,560
Speaker 4: Could you give us a couple of examples of people

930
00:56:56,560 --> 00:57:00,959
Speaker 4: that are directly respond related to some of the people

931
00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:04,760
Speaker 4: who lost their lives. How could in these terrible moments

932
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:06,200
Speaker 4: they stay regulated?

933
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:11,960
Speaker 2: Well, that's a great that's a great question, Mac. I

934
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:18,240
Speaker 2: think that most people's brains will use dissociation to regulate themselves,

935
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:21,160
Speaker 2: and so what they'll do is that they'll find they'll

936
00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:24,160
Speaker 2: have moments where it's just they're right in it and

937
00:57:24,200 --> 00:57:28,120
Speaker 2: it's overwhelming, and then they'll sort of numb out, and

938
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:32,440
Speaker 2: so that'll happen. But that's physically exhausting. What I would

939
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 2: recommend that this is really important. If you want to

940
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:45,280
Speaker 2: manage this, you've got to really focus on physical activity, sleep, diet,

941
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 2: socialization four things. And these are things you can control,

942
00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:53,440
Speaker 2: but you have to be think about them like they're prescribed,

943
00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:57,520
Speaker 2: just like take your vitamin in the morning, take your

944
00:57:57,560 --> 00:58:01,120
Speaker 2: ten minute walk, lunch, you know, eat at the same time.

945
00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:05,000
Speaker 2: You know, just the more external regulation you get, even

946
00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:08,720
Speaker 2: kind of rigid, the more your body will be regulated.

947
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:10,280
Speaker 2: And that's the that's one of the best ways to

948
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:14,400
Speaker 2: start is to use doses of movement, whether it's riding

949
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:17,440
Speaker 2: a bike or swimming or listening to music, whatever is

950
00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:20,640
Speaker 2: kind of makes you feel good. You've got to take

951
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:25,280
Speaker 2: these tiny little breaks and and you know, sleep is

952
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:32,120
Speaker 2: sometimes hard to deal with, but try to go to sleep.

953
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:36,000
Speaker 2: You can't go to sleep, get up, do something productive.

954
00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:39,240
Speaker 2: Try to go do your same little sleep routine again

955
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:42,919
Speaker 2: doesn't work.

956
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:47,000
Speaker 1: And I think as a as a you know, anxiety clinician,

957
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:49,440
Speaker 1: and you know, one big thing would be if you

958
00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:52,880
Speaker 1: find yourself in this rumination, right, be thoughtful about what

959
00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:55,000
Speaker 1: you're doing that may be promoting it, and can you

960
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:57,640
Speaker 1: change and do something different. One thing we really talk

961
00:58:57,680 --> 00:58:59,480
Speaker 1: a lot about also, and I think this is so

962
00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:02,960
Speaker 1: important with kids right that are experiencing this kind of

963
00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:05,720
Speaker 1: secondhand traumas or Vibr's guild to all the things, is

964
00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:09,760
Speaker 1: be cautious about exposure to news and media because you know,

965
00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:11,600
Speaker 1: one thing I learned a lot from you, Bruce, is

966
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:14,760
Speaker 1: that you know, children, when they hear about something, it's

967
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:17,200
Speaker 1: as if they can sometimes believe as if it's happening

968
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:19,520
Speaker 1: all over again. It's hard for them to understand that

969
00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:22,480
Speaker 1: this is a replay of a past event. And so

970
00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:24,760
Speaker 1: we need to be thoughtful about that for kids, but

971
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:27,800
Speaker 1: also for ourselves. Right, the more we are sitting here

972
00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:31,800
Speaker 1: searching on social media, looking all day, reading news stories, right,

973
00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:34,680
Speaker 1: the more just regulated we've become. And that is something

974
00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:37,600
Speaker 1: we can behaviorally change. Right, We can limit our own

975
00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:41,720
Speaker 1: exposure to this repeated trauma exactly.

976
00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:44,600
Speaker 2: And you know it's studies have shown that if you

977
00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:50,160
Speaker 2: expose children to a net like the Challenger disaster, for example,

978
00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:54,080
Speaker 2: children who watch that news cycle more than ten times

979
00:59:54,720 --> 00:59:57,880
Speaker 2: actually developed trauma related symptoms at the same rate as

980
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:01,440
Speaker 2: kids that actually witnessed it. And so this is something

981
01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:05,400
Speaker 2: that you're spot on that's so important that the more

982
01:00:05,760 --> 01:00:13,280
Speaker 2: people expose themselves to repetitive, repetitive, repetitive, negative things, the

983
01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:15,280
Speaker 2: more that's going to have an impact on you. So

984
01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:18,560
Speaker 2: it is you know, I'm so glad you brought that up,

985
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:23,120
Speaker 2: because that really is I think the number one controllable

986
01:00:23,240 --> 01:00:26,160
Speaker 2: thing that you can do for children and for yourself

987
01:00:26,680 --> 01:00:31,200
Speaker 2: is to stop watching and scrolling relentlessly.

988
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 1: Last two questions I have for today, and then we

989
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:37,520
Speaker 1: have so many more to come, and I'm so excited

990
01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:40,000
Speaker 1: to continue the series and provide support in the long

991
01:00:40,080 --> 01:00:42,480
Speaker 1: run because that's what we're here for. How do we

992
01:00:42,560 --> 01:00:44,960
Speaker 1: help and support our first responders right now? They have

993
01:00:45,040 --> 01:00:47,680
Speaker 1: been everywhere, their boots on the ground, and my gut

994
01:00:47,720 --> 01:00:50,200
Speaker 1: from what we've talked about is like bring them a meal, right,

995
01:00:50,760 --> 01:00:52,960
Speaker 1: help them get to showers, or different things that we

996
01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:54,680
Speaker 1: can do to get them in a pattern and in

997
01:00:54,760 --> 01:00:56,640
Speaker 1: a routine, but we know they've got a long road

998
01:00:56,640 --> 01:00:57,280
Speaker 1: ahead as well.

999
01:00:58,120 --> 01:01:02,080
Speaker 2: They have a long road ahead, and they It's interesting

1000
01:01:02,120 --> 01:01:04,320
Speaker 2: a lot of the people who choose to go into

1001
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:10,600
Speaker 2: first responding positions also tend to be kind of not

1002
01:01:10,680 --> 01:01:18,600
Speaker 2: necessarily good at taking help. They're very good at giving help,

1003
01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:22,160
Speaker 2: but they're not usually that comfortable letting people take care

1004
01:01:22,160 --> 01:01:25,640
Speaker 2: of them. Now, over time, people are learning more about

1005
01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:28,120
Speaker 2: this and getting better. But what I would recommend is

1006
01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:30,760
Speaker 2: you just have to think about them in almost the

1007
01:01:30,800 --> 01:01:33,760
Speaker 2: same way as you think about people that are ground zero,

1008
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:39,560
Speaker 2: is that they need relational regulation. They need to know

1009
01:01:39,600 --> 01:01:43,320
Speaker 2: that you are aware of them and you value them.

1010
01:01:43,640 --> 01:01:46,680
Speaker 2: They need these concrete things like, hey, you got to

1011
01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:51,160
Speaker 2: focus on your sleep. You know, you've got to rotate out,

1012
01:01:51,400 --> 01:01:53,480
Speaker 2: You've got to take some time for yourself, You've got

1013
01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:55,919
Speaker 2: to meet the needs of your family. You know, do

1014
01:01:56,040 --> 01:02:01,760
Speaker 2: not make the mistake of compounding this tracky by wearing

1015
01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:05,600
Speaker 2: yourself out and having this echo impact on everybody in

1016
01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:12,240
Speaker 2: your life. And again, education can help support that. You know,

1017
01:02:12,240 --> 01:02:15,960
Speaker 2: the more people learn about that, the more they understand

1018
01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:19,040
Speaker 2: why you're saying that. You know, if you understand you

1019
01:02:19,080 --> 01:02:20,760
Speaker 2: know a lot of people are like, don't like to

1020
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:24,280
Speaker 2: be told what to do, and the first responders typically cops,

1021
01:02:24,320 --> 01:02:26,240
Speaker 2: and they don't like to be told what to do,

1022
01:02:26,440 --> 01:02:30,000
Speaker 2: particularly by mental health people. But if you tell them

1023
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:34,160
Speaker 2: about the biology of responding and about what happens in

1024
01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:38,880
Speaker 2: the stress response systems, they're much more likely to recognize it. Yeah,

1025
01:02:38,920 --> 01:02:43,760
Speaker 2: I guess that's probably good for me. But that's a

1026
01:02:43,800 --> 01:02:44,280
Speaker 2: big hurdle.

1027
01:02:45,040 --> 01:02:47,520
Speaker 1: We can push this and have some impact. I know

1028
01:02:47,560 --> 01:02:50,080
Speaker 1: you've done a lot of work in research on what

1029
01:02:50,240 --> 01:02:52,640
Speaker 1: policymakers need to do and how they need to show

1030
01:02:52,720 --> 01:02:54,840
Speaker 1: up in these sort of events, and so would love

1031
01:02:54,880 --> 01:02:57,919
Speaker 1: to hear any feedback and ways we can push our

1032
01:02:58,360 --> 01:03:01,520
Speaker 1: local policy and of course now well and statewide policymakers

1033
01:03:01,680 --> 01:03:04,120
Speaker 1: to really help show up in a way that's going

1034
01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:05,480
Speaker 1: to be most beneficial right now.

1035
01:03:06,880 --> 01:03:12,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's again, I think that there will be you know,

1036
01:03:12,640 --> 01:03:17,120
Speaker 2: people will show up in the short term, right cameras,

1037
01:03:17,200 --> 01:03:20,840
Speaker 2: they'll show up a disaster, they'll show up. I think

1038
01:03:20,880 --> 01:03:25,320
Speaker 2: the heartbreaking thing is in six months, when the pain

1039
01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:29,920
Speaker 2: and agony and misery and the delayed response of building

1040
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:33,160
Speaker 2: and rebuilding, they're not going to show up because you

1041
01:03:33,200 --> 01:03:38,040
Speaker 2: know why, what they'll be met with his anger and

1042
01:03:40,080 --> 01:03:46,520
Speaker 2: the slowness of the responses and what happened, just that's

1043
01:03:46,680 --> 01:03:49,880
Speaker 2: when they'll not show up. But again, the same thing

1044
01:03:49,920 --> 01:03:52,160
Speaker 2: as honestly, if you are a policymaker and you have

1045
01:03:52,200 --> 01:03:55,240
Speaker 2: the guts to show up and tolerate the discomfort of

1046
01:03:55,280 --> 01:03:59,600
Speaker 2: what happens in recovery, you're going to be better. You're

1047
01:03:59,640 --> 01:04:02,400
Speaker 2: going to help your constituency better. You're going to be

1048
01:04:02,560 --> 01:04:05,959
Speaker 2: you will be valued more by the people that vote

1049
01:04:05,960 --> 01:04:09,480
Speaker 2: for you. Do the right thing, that's right.

1050
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:14,280
Speaker 1: Final words and thoughts and for today from everybody. Would

1051
01:04:14,280 --> 01:04:17,280
Speaker 1: love to hear that. And our commitment to our community

1052
01:04:17,560 --> 01:04:19,520
Speaker 1: is to help show up and serve in the long run,

1053
01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:22,080
Speaker 1: not the short run. And so Bruce, I just want

1054
01:04:22,120 --> 01:04:24,080
Speaker 1: to say thank you. The fact that I could text

1055
01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:26,960
Speaker 1: you yesterday and you could say, all show up anytime tomorrow.

1056
01:04:27,080 --> 01:04:30,120
Speaker 1: You tell me when, and you're here and offering your

1057
01:04:30,240 --> 01:04:36,320
Speaker 1: expertise that is grounded by research, by impact, and of

1058
01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:39,640
Speaker 1: course by the way you've shown up for countless tragedies

1059
01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:41,200
Speaker 1: is something we're just so grateful for.

1060
01:04:42,920 --> 01:04:48,960
Speaker 4: Absolutely, Bruce, what were they thirty second commercial talking to

1061
01:04:49,080 --> 01:04:52,320
Speaker 4: people affected, just to let them know that everybody cares

1062
01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:52,680
Speaker 4: about them.

1063
01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:56,200
Speaker 2: What would it sound like, oh wow, Mac, you're talking

1064
01:04:56,200 --> 01:04:57,720
Speaker 2: to the wrong guy. I don't just sound by this

1065
01:04:57,840 --> 01:05:01,840
Speaker 2: very well, as you probably can tell from this podcast.

1066
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:05,840
Speaker 2: I do you know what I think it would be

1067
01:05:05,920 --> 01:05:09,160
Speaker 2: somebody like you. I think it should be you, a

1068
01:05:09,240 --> 01:05:13,640
Speaker 2: public figure who's revered to just say, just speak from

1069
01:05:13,680 --> 01:05:19,080
Speaker 2: the heart, you know, let people know that you care.

1070
01:05:19,240 --> 01:05:21,200
Speaker 2: If you're not going and you're not going to go away,

1071
01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:24,920
Speaker 2: you're gonna put together supports and resources to help people.

1072
01:05:26,080 --> 01:05:29,720
Speaker 2: And as we figure out what that's going to look like,

1073
01:05:30,600 --> 01:05:34,040
Speaker 2: we're going to make sure that you learn about it.

1074
01:05:34,080 --> 01:05:34,880
Speaker 2: Sounds great to me.

1075
01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:37,480
Speaker 4: Is the honor of being here with you and Liz.

1076
01:05:39,120 --> 01:05:42,840
Speaker 2: Hey, you got quite a daughter there, Mac. He's pretty special.

1077
01:05:43,640 --> 01:05:47,960
Speaker 1: He takes after him another thank God, Well, thank you

1078
01:05:47,960 --> 01:05:50,440
Speaker 1: all for being here. I know that so many people

1079
01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:53,760
Speaker 1: who are watching and listening are struggling and suffering right now.

1080
01:05:53,880 --> 01:05:56,960
Speaker 1: And the thing we heard countless times today is that

1081
01:05:56,960 --> 01:05:59,000
Speaker 1: this is going to be uncomfortable. This is going to

1082
01:05:59,080 --> 01:06:02,400
Speaker 1: be really hard, and we need to all show up

1083
01:06:02,680 --> 01:06:05,040
Speaker 1: and keep showing up because it is what we can

1084
01:06:05,120 --> 01:06:07,800
Speaker 1: do to help someone else move through this. Try to

1085
01:06:07,840 --> 01:06:11,200
Speaker 1: get people and encourage people to be in a routine right,

1086
01:06:11,400 --> 01:06:14,280
Speaker 1: eating meals, doing a little bit of movement, engaging in

1087
01:06:14,320 --> 01:06:18,240
Speaker 1: their normal activities despite how abnormal everything else is, and

1088
01:06:18,400 --> 01:06:21,320
Speaker 1: stick with it for the long run. Right community, schools,

1089
01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:24,360
Speaker 1: loved ones, family members, clinicians. We can all show up

1090
01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:26,560
Speaker 1: right now, and that's critical, but what's really going to

1091
01:06:26,560 --> 01:06:29,640
Speaker 1: be critical is how we're showing up in one, two, three.

1092
01:06:29,560 --> 01:06:31,920
Speaker 2: Six, twelve months exactly.

1093
01:06:33,040 --> 01:06:35,080
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Thank you for your time, Looking

1094
01:06:35,080 --> 01:06:37,280
Speaker 1: forward to many more in ways we can keep helping,

1095
01:06:37,320 --> 01:06:39,080
Speaker 1: and we will of course link and share all the

1096
01:06:39,120 --> 01:06:40,560
Speaker 1: resources we talked about today.

1097
01:06:41,160 --> 01:06:44,160
Speaker 2: Great, my pleasure is great to see you too. Keep

1098
01:06:44,240 --> 01:06:47,240
Speaker 2: up the good work, you guys, you guys, Thank you