WEBVTT - Guyana: Life Inside a Ticking Carbon Bomb 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:15.280 Welcome to a new year of Drilled and our sister 0:00:15.440 --> 0:00:20.160 show Damages. I'm Amy Westervelt. Next month we'll be bringing 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:24.000 you a new narrative season across both shows that is 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:28.639 all about the new wave of oil colonialism underway in 0:00:28.760 --> 0:00:32.680 the global South. Fossil fuel companies can see the writing 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:35.600 on the wall, and they are raising each other to 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:40.159 tap all of their reserves. No one wants to be 0:00:40.200 --> 0:00:44.400 the one left standing with the most unsold barrels of oil. 0:00:44.760 --> 0:00:49.680 So we're seeing this explosion of development across Africa, the 0:00:49.760 --> 0:00:53.480 Caribbean and Latin America. A lot of these projects fall 0:00:53.600 --> 0:00:58.360 into what reporters for The Guardian described as carbon bombs 0:00:58.560 --> 0:01:00.880 last year. I don't know if you're remember reading that 0:01:01.040 --> 0:01:04.319 story about how all these companies had committed to emissions 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:08.000 reductions but also had plans on the books for these 0:01:08.160 --> 0:01:13.000 major fossil fuel developments. Here we are, the carbon bombs 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:16.360 are being built, and there are some efforts underway to 0:01:16.440 --> 0:01:19.240 diffuse them. We're going to tell that story through a 0:01:19.319 --> 0:01:22.880 deep dive into what's been happening in one small South 0:01:22.880 --> 0:01:26.560 American country that's gone from being the world's top eco 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:31.360 tourism destination to one of its largest oil producing states 0:01:31.400 --> 0:01:36.280 in just a few years. That country is Guyana. It's 0:01:36.319 --> 0:01:39.679 the only English speaking country in South America. It has 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:43.319 a population of just under eight hundred thousand people, and 0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:48.320 today it is the fastest growing economy on Earth. That's 0:01:48.360 --> 0:01:51.640 thanks to a major oil boom led by Exxon Mobile. 0:01:51.920 --> 0:01:55.920 This is a fascinating story with a lot of twists 0:01:55.920 --> 0:01:59.360 and turns. Today as a special preview of what's to come, 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:03.840 bringing you an interview with attorney Melinda Jankie. She's filed 0:02:03.920 --> 0:02:06.680 six different lawsuits over the last few years in an 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:10.600 effort to curb oil development in her home country. As 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:13.160 you'll hear, Jankie grew up in Guyana, but went to 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:16.320 university in England and actually worked as in house counsel 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:21.080 for BP before moving home and getting into environmental law. 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:24.480 Many years before filing her recent cases, Jankie helped to 0:02:24.639 --> 0:02:28.359 write the country's constitutional right to a healthy environment, as 0:02:28.400 --> 0:02:32.240 well as some of the bedrock environmental policies in Guyana. 0:02:32.320 --> 0:02:35.240 Here she walks us through what's been happening since Exon 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:39.720 first discovered oil in twenty fifteen. You'll hear our senior 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:42.920 producer and editor Sarah Entry in this interview too. We 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:46.600 are very excited to bring you the full story next month. 0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:57.320 Make sure you're subscribed so you won't miss it. I 0:02:57.360 --> 0:03:00.120 would love to have you tell me about where in 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:03.080 the country you grew up and what you remember Guyana 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:05.799 being like when you were a child growing up. 0:03:06.480 --> 0:03:09.760 I grew up in Sabrianville, which is very close to 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:13.520 the sea, and so every night for the first few 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:16.280 years of my life, I went to bed with the 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:20.799 sound of the sea in my ears, and Sabrianville was 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:26.800 very quiet. We lived with our neighbors basically, so all 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:29.880 the children were in all the houses all of the time. 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:34.200 And I would say I was obviously brought up by 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:37.200 my mother and father, but I was also brought up 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:40.520 by all the other parents in the neighborhood. 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:45.040 Yeah that's so nice, okay, And how did you wind 0:03:45.120 --> 0:03:47.200 up working for BP? 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:52.520 So I basically became a lawyer. I didn't actually want 0:03:52.560 --> 0:03:54.119 to be a lawyer. I wanted to be a vet, 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:55.960 but I didn't think I was clever enough to be 0:03:56.000 --> 0:03:58.520 a vet. So I thought, well, I'll do law instead, 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:02.480 and discovered that I liked it, and I went to 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:05.840 work for what they call one of the Magic Circle firms. 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:09.880 In London at the time it was called Levels, and 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:12.680 enjoyed it very much, but I thought that there ought 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:15.200 to be a bit more to this, and so I 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:20.560 left and then went to work in industry. And at 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:24.039 the time it seemed like BVP was a good place 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:28.040 to go, and indeed it was. The work was very interesting. 0:04:28.920 --> 0:04:32.360 I had far more responsibility than I would have had 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:35.920 if i'd stayed in the law firm. I met some 0:04:36.080 --> 0:04:40.160 very interesting people, and I traveled, and you know, when 0:04:40.240 --> 0:04:43.480 you're young, the idea of seeing the world is very attractive. 0:04:43.520 --> 0:04:45.240 You want to go to other places, you want to 0:04:45.240 --> 0:04:48.080 meet other people, you want to experience other cultures, and 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:50.000 you just want to learn. 0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:53.880 Yeah, yeah, And what was it like there? What kinds 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:55.760 of things did you work on to the extent that 0:04:55.800 --> 0:04:57.520 you're able to say. 0:04:58.600 --> 0:05:02.120 Some of the work that I did towards the end 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:05.400 of when I was there was on refinancing, so on 0:05:05.839 --> 0:05:10.520 bonds and swaps, and that involved me going to a 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:14.640 lot of capital cities in Europe, which I enjoyed enormously 0:05:15.000 --> 0:05:17.120 because that's where we were doing the closings. 0:05:17.839 --> 0:05:19.760 And what did you learn about sort of how the 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:24.279 oil industry operates seeing it from the inside. 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:26.880 I think we just take these things for granted when 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:29.840 you work in the industry. But of course, the purpose 0:05:29.880 --> 0:05:32.240 of an oil company is to make money. They have 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:36.160 no other purpose. And I think sometimes people don't realize 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:38.760 that the purpose of the oil company is to make 0:05:38.800 --> 0:05:41.559 money and they have no other purpose. They're not there 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:45.040 to promote human rights, they're not there to protect the environment. 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:48.279 They're there to put the share price up and to 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:53.520 give big fat dividends to their shareholders. The other thing 0:05:53.680 --> 0:05:59.200 I think I learned was that they're very efficient, very 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:02.240 very effect at what they do. They're very good at 0:06:02.240 --> 0:06:05.160 what they do, and they're very good at telling people 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:10.560 a story about how beneficial this is for the world. 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:16.520 So the oil industry always tells you how good it 0:06:16.560 --> 0:06:19.279 is for you to have them, how your life is 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:22.839 much better because they're there, And that has the way 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:28.960 of removing every other narrative. So we have a situation where, 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:32.039 for example, they say, well, we power the world, we 0:06:32.080 --> 0:06:37.400 are the energy that keeps the economy going, we heat 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:41.719 your homes, were enable you to cook, and people say, oh, yes, 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:45.279 that's wonderful. They don't say we're frying the planet so 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:47.280 that we can make money, and we are going to 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:50.720 make sure that renewable energy doesn't get anywhere, because that 0:06:50.760 --> 0:06:53.240 will put us out of business. So in a way, 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:57.800 I think you sort of understand that oil companies capture 0:06:58.160 --> 0:07:03.720 the public mind. I think they capture the political sector 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:06.479 of society, because I don't think that the fossil fuel 0:07:06.560 --> 0:07:09.880 sector would survive if it wasn't for politicians who are 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:13.680 prepared to prop them up, no matter the cost to 0:07:13.720 --> 0:07:14.119 the earth. 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:18.800 Yeah, yeah, Okay, what prompted you to leave BP? 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:21.600 I don't think that there is any one thing that 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:25.280 prompted me to leave BP. I suppose the question I 0:07:25.320 --> 0:07:27.960 often ask myself is why am I still doing this? 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:32.080 And I think, you know, if you keep doing something 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:34.880 and you get good at it, and then you become 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:39.680 very comfortable, and comfort is a kind of trap, it 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:43.000 makes it more difficult to leave and to grow and 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:48.240 to do different things. But really, also, I was in 0:07:48.280 --> 0:07:53.440 a meeting and it was a meeting about swaps, and 0:07:53.840 --> 0:07:57.200 one of the people at the table turned to me 0:07:57.280 --> 0:08:02.200 and he said, as we were discussing swap, he said, oh, 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:06.440 this is such sexy work. And I thought to myself, 0:08:07.000 --> 0:08:10.360 you know, this is really time to leave. 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:18.240 Okay, And what did you do next? What happened at 0:08:18.240 --> 0:08:19.239 that point? When you left? 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:24.920 I left and I had an offer to join a 0:08:24.960 --> 0:08:29.640 firm in Guyana, and I decided that this would be 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:32.160 a good time to take up that offer if it 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:35.679 was still available, and I became a partner in the firm. 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:40.320 So when I came back, I had something to go to, 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:42.599 which was extremely fortunate. 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:45.319 And what kinds of things did you work on there? 0:08:46.080 --> 0:08:50.520 I worked on generally commercial stuff, because really all my 0:08:50.600 --> 0:08:54.480 training and everything that I'd been doing was commercial work, 0:08:54.600 --> 0:08:56.720 hard nosed commercial work. 0:08:57.520 --> 0:09:01.000 And how did you get involved with right legislation? 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:08.480 So that started in nineteen ninety four or ninety five 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:12.920 when there was a meeting at the Pegasus Hotel, which 0:09:12.960 --> 0:09:15.480 is this big was this big hotel in Man, it's 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:19.000 even bringher now. I wanted to go to the meeting, 0:09:19.640 --> 0:09:21.640 but I had no way to go to the meeting 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:28.200 because I was just this completely unimportant individual and the 0:09:28.240 --> 0:09:31.160 meeting was by invitation only, and then there were some 0:09:31.240 --> 0:09:35.320 press passes. And the other partner in the firm was 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:40.239 someone called David Decareys, who was the owner and publisher 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:44.480 and editor of Stabreick News. And I said to him 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:46.280 that I wanted to go to the meeting, and he said, 0:09:46.320 --> 0:09:49.000 I'll give you a press pass. So I went and 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:53.280 it was interminably boring, but in the break I was 0:09:53.320 --> 0:09:56.080 able to talk to one of the government officials and 0:09:56.160 --> 0:09:58.480 say to him that I had looked at their draft 0:09:58.640 --> 0:10:03.880 Environmental Act and I thought that it was inadequate. And 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:08.200 he didn't brush me off. He said, oh, well, send 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:10.840 me something about it. I mean, I suppose that was 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:12.560 the brush off, but I didn't think it was a 0:10:12.559 --> 0:10:15.520 brush off. I thought that it was actually really a 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:20.400 really exciting opportunity. So I wrote a paper explaining why 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:24.920 I thought this Act was inadequate. The next thing I 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:27.200 knew was they asked me if i'd like to actually 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:29.960 work on this as a consultant, and so I said yes, 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:34.080 and I was hired. I think the IDB paid for 0:10:34.120 --> 0:10:36.959 it because they had a team working on it at 0:10:36.960 --> 0:10:40.360 the time, and so that's how I became involved in 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:43.560 drafting the legislation. And I worked with the rest of 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:46.920 the IDB people, none of whom were lawyers, and the 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:53.120 result was this completely completely changed piece of legislation. I 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:55.680 put in all the stuff on the environmental impact assessment. 0:10:56.200 --> 0:10:58.640 I put in the impact on the climate the impact 0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:02.040 on the atmosphere. And this is nineteen ninety five, ninety six, 0:11:02.080 --> 0:11:04.760 This is at a time and nobody really was thinking 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:09.240 about those things. And I put in principles of environmental management, 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:12.720 so things like the pollutera pays that you have to 0:11:12.760 --> 0:11:17.240 take action to the precautionary principle. And I put in 0:11:17.640 --> 0:11:22.960 principles of natural capital, which again people really weren't talking 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:27.720 about and even now seems to be unknown again even 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:31.439 though it's been in the legislation since nineteen ninety six. 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:35.199 How did you get interested in this stuff? Like you were, 0:11:35.400 --> 0:11:39.120 you know, a commercial lawyer, worked in industry. How did 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:44.120 you start to learn about environmental legislation and or was 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:46.680 this like something you'd always been interested in and just 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:48.559 hadn't been able to work in. 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:53.000 Well, I think when you grew up with nature, then 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:57.040 you have a relationship with the world around you, and 0:11:57.080 --> 0:11:59.680 then if you're a lawyer, you sort of at some 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:05.079 point I suppose that to connect. And I wanted to 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:12.120 protect Guyana's environment. I wanted to protect the nature that 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:15.800 I grew up with and that I think everybody should 0:12:15.880 --> 0:12:17.400 have a chance to grow up with. 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:20.839 How did the constitutional rate to a healthy environment come 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:21.680 about well. 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:25.280 This was just another one of those opportunities. The government 0:12:25.320 --> 0:12:29.800 decided that they would look at the constitution and that 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:33.679 they would begin a process of constitution reform, and they 0:12:33.760 --> 0:12:36.560 set up different committees and subcommittees and it was all 0:12:36.679 --> 0:12:40.800 terribly exciting. I wasn't on any of the committees, but 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:45.400 I was interested in the constitution bit of it, and 0:12:46.600 --> 0:12:50.000 I decided that I would write something and send it 0:12:50.000 --> 0:12:54.240 to them as a sort of background paper that would 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:59.240 add to the discussion. So I looked at constitutions around 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:02.200 the world that at that time had the right to 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:06.640 healthy environment, and then I put forward the arguments for 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:11.600 having it in the Constitution and I sent it to 0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:14.760 the committee. I happened I didn't know two of the 0:13:14.800 --> 0:13:18.640 people on the committee, so I think that helped to 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:22.080 get people to read it, and they decided that it 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:25.000 was worth paying attention to, and they said to me 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:27.280 that they would use it and that they would recommend 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:29.920 that the right to a healthy environment went into the Constitution. 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:34.080 And actually what they did was to adopt entirely the 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:37.439 provisions from South Africa, which I think was a good 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:38.960 move to do at the time. 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:45.880 Coming up after the break, Exxon finds Oil and Melinda 0:13:45.960 --> 0:14:03.959 starts filing cases. Stay with us. Talk me through the 0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:08.480 path from working at this firm. You're getting involved in 0:14:08.520 --> 0:14:12.120 some of the legislation. How do you then start filing 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:15.280 cases around environmental issues. 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:19.480 Well, I had left the firm to become a consultant 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:23.560 and that gave me a lot more freedom to do things. 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:28.640 And then I actually I went away and then came 0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:34.480 back again. And at the time, nothing much was happening 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:41.280 until suddenly in twenty fifteen, ex All announced that they 0:14:41.320 --> 0:14:48.520 had found oil, and my heart just sank because I 0:14:48.680 --> 0:14:53.160 know oil is a disaster and it's the worst possible 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:58.200 thing that could have happened to Geana. And people just 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:00.760 began to go crazy at the idea of all this 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:05.080 oil wealth. They were talking exclusively in terms of oil wealth. 0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:08.320 But I thought that we were really heading for trouble. 0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:13.600 And sure enough, the first thing that we saw was 0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:17.440 that they changed. They entered into a new agreement which 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:22.200 was secret. They wouldn't release it to people. When they 0:15:22.240 --> 0:15:26.360 finally released it, it was atrocious. The previous government had 0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:28.960 signed an agreement that was very much in favor of Exon. 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:35.200 The next government which came in took that agreement and 0:15:35.800 --> 0:15:39.640 made it even more favorable to the oil companies, so 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:42.000 you can see why the government wanted to keep it secret. 0:15:42.560 --> 0:15:46.440 They had also taken eighteen million dollars which they hid 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:51.280 in a secret bank account instead of putting it into 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:56.160 the consolidated fund, so right from the beginning this was problematic. 0:15:57.360 --> 0:16:01.240 Then they ESSO, which is the low subsidiary. You see, 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:06.000 this dealer is not with Exon Mobile Corporation, the big 0:16:06.160 --> 0:16:12.720 company that has billions of dollars worth of assets, albeit 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:17.320 assets that may well be stranded assets, but nevertheless assets. 0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:23.520 This subsidiary is registered in the Bahamas and doesn't have 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:29.280 anything anything like the assets that Exon Mobile Corporation has, 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:33.720 So you're dealing with somebody who is thin on the ground. 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:37.960 SOSO started to do this environmental impact assessment. It was 0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:44.840 absolutely atrocious. It was done by erm who have Exon 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:48.560 Mobile as their clients. Anyway, you are supposed to have 0:16:48.640 --> 0:16:53.440 the environmental impact assessment done by an independent consultant. Now 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:57.920 independent obviously means independent of the person for whom you're 0:16:57.960 --> 0:17:01.760 doing it. That rule was breached from day one. But 0:17:01.840 --> 0:17:04.119 people were so excited about this oil that no one 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:09.920 was focusing on this, and the environmental Impact Assessment has 0:17:09.960 --> 0:17:14.359 things like ESSO will be allowed to put four thousand 0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:18.520 barrels of sewage into the sea every day. They carried 0:17:18.560 --> 0:17:23.280 out studies of birds using bird lists that are very 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:27.359 old from the nineteen sixties. They went out into the 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:29.600 sea and they looked at the fish, and they came 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:32.240 back and they said the most common fish was the 0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:38.440 unidentified flying fish. And the regulator, the Environmental Protection Agency, 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:42.440 raised no objections to any of the stuff that they 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:45.920 had put into the Environmental Impact Assessment and issued a 0:17:46.000 --> 0:17:50.640 permit on the first of June twenty seventeen, in which 0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:53.720 they said that ESSO was authorized to carry out the 0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:58.280 laza I project in accordance with the Environmental Impact Assessment 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:03.480 also dated the of June twenty seventeen, and the Environmental 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:08.920 Management Assessment dated the first of June twenty seventeen, and 0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:14.159 various other documents dated the first of twenty seventeen. These 0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:18.400 documents run to fifteen hundred pages or more. So it 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:23.320 is a mystery as to when exactly the Environmental Protection 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:27.720 Agency read these documents, if in fact they did read. 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:32.439 Them, Wow, what was the first case you failed? 0:18:32.960 --> 0:18:36.920 So this is happening in twenty seventeen and it's becoming 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:41.040 increasingly obvious that the sector is going to do whatever 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:44.200 it wants to do. So at this event, the advisor 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:47.360 to the President on oil was telling people that they 0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:49.760 didn't really know the oil industry and they had to 0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:55.560 trust the oil companies. I was utterly outraged by that, 0:18:55.920 --> 0:18:59.440 particularly as it was coming from someone who was very 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:04.280 close to the president. And I began talking to someone 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:06.320 there and he said he would like to do a case, 0:19:06.720 --> 0:19:10.000 but nobody would do the case for him to challenge 0:19:10.040 --> 0:19:13.840 the oil and I said, I'll do it now. I 0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:17.720 had not done litigation for a very long time, and 0:19:18.000 --> 0:19:21.919 I thought I'll get someone else to help with this, 0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:24.800 but in fact I couldn't get anybody to help with 0:19:24.840 --> 0:19:28.439 it until a senior council who was based in Trinidad 0:19:28.960 --> 0:19:31.679 agreed to take the case and to do it with me. 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:34.720 And the case was completely unfunded. We had a little 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:38.400 crowd justice thing, a little crowd justice page, and some 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:42.320 of the Guyanese diaspora gave us one thousand dollars and 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:45.720 that's how we started. I had no clerk. I had 0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:48.639 to go and line up at the Court Registry with 0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:52.240 the documents and wait. My turn, and everybody would push 0:19:52.240 --> 0:19:54.040 in front of me because they know how the system 0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:57.280 works and I don't. And eventually I got the documents 0:19:57.359 --> 0:20:00.960 stamped and filed, and then so on the other side. 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:02.439 And then the case began. 0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:04.240 And what case was that? 0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:08.320 The case is Raymond Gaskin against the Minister of Natural 0:20:08.359 --> 0:20:12.160 Resources in the environment and then the judge added, so 0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:16.320 exploration production gay and limited, Hess gan A limited and 0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:20.160 se next in petroleum gayanulimited. So the three oil companies 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:23.639 that are part of the petroleum agreement that was redone. 0:20:24.080 --> 0:20:27.040 And the case is very simple. So so has an 0:20:27.119 --> 0:20:30.240 environmental permit, the same permit that I mentioned that was awarded, 0:20:30.560 --> 0:20:36.119 but Hess and s don't. However, the minister who was 0:20:36.160 --> 0:20:39.359 the respondent in the case, the minister gave a petroleum 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:43.520 production license to all three of the oil companies. Our 0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:47.800 argument is that you can't do that. You can only 0:20:47.960 --> 0:20:51.320 give a petroleum production license to someone who has already 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:55.280 met the requirements of the Environmental Protection Act and has 0:20:55.320 --> 0:20:59.040 obtained an environmental permit. And we say that's exactly what 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:04.520 the Act says. Now its opposing counsel has stood up 0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:08.600 in court and given a different interpretation of the legislation, 0:21:09.280 --> 0:21:11.520 and I can say it's a little frustrating for me 0:21:11.880 --> 0:21:14.680 because I wrote those sections and I know exactly what 0:21:14.720 --> 0:21:20.080 they mean, but you can't really say that in court. However, 0:21:20.680 --> 0:21:26.280 the case went to the Chief Justice and we waited 0:21:26.359 --> 0:21:31.280 a year for a decision. She ruled against mister Gaskin. 0:21:32.160 --> 0:21:36.400 We appealed the case within two days. It was heard 0:21:36.640 --> 0:21:40.000 earlier this year, and we are now waiting for the 0:21:40.240 --> 0:21:44.440 Court of Appeal to give their decision. Under the Time 0:21:44.560 --> 0:21:47.800 Limit for Judicial Decisions Act, the Court of Appeal is 0:21:47.840 --> 0:21:51.520 required to give their decision within thirty days. That thirty 0:21:51.600 --> 0:21:56.080 days expired some time ago, and we have written to 0:21:56.119 --> 0:22:00.520 the court asking them for their decision, king them to 0:22:00.520 --> 0:22:01.360 give their decision. 0:22:01.880 --> 0:22:06.040 Can you walk us through the constitutional case, the case 0:22:06.080 --> 0:22:10.280 that invokes Guyana's constitutional right for a healthy environment? How 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:10.920 did that begin? 0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:17.439 Definitely? So, as oil production, as zoil activities in the 0:22:17.480 --> 0:22:22.600 country continue, it's becoming increasingly apparent to people that deepwater 0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:28.280 drilling is extremely dangerous, but also that the result of 0:22:28.320 --> 0:22:33.399 this activity is killing the planet. And so I was 0:22:33.440 --> 0:22:37.840 talking to d De Troy Thomas from the University. Now. 0:22:38.119 --> 0:22:42.600 Dr Thomas had at that stage already filed a case 0:22:42.680 --> 0:22:46.679 against es SO, and I was his lawyer on that 0:22:46.760 --> 0:22:51.280 case along with Sinasjirahm, who had also been the senior 0:22:51.320 --> 0:22:54.080 council in the Gaskin case, and that in that case 0:22:54.119 --> 0:22:57.200 we cut SOS permits down from over twenty three years 0:22:57.240 --> 0:23:01.159 to five years. So Dr Thomas had already been in 0:23:01.200 --> 0:23:04.199 court once on this and decided that he would like 0:23:04.400 --> 0:23:10.640 now to continue and do something else because fossil fuel 0:23:11.200 --> 0:23:17.159 production and greenhouse gases are killing the future basically, so 0:23:18.280 --> 0:23:20.119 he decided that he wanted to do the case. I 0:23:20.160 --> 0:23:23.520 said that I would do it, and Cordad Defratus, who 0:23:23.640 --> 0:23:26.880 is a young Wapachan youth from the South Roupernuni, said 0:23:26.880 --> 0:23:29.560 that he also would like to be in the case. 0:23:30.119 --> 0:23:34.160 So we have those two litigants. In essence, the case 0:23:34.240 --> 0:23:38.200 is very simple, and it says that when you burn 0:23:38.280 --> 0:23:43.920 fossil fuels, they emit greenhouse gases, and those greenhouse gases 0:23:44.280 --> 0:23:50.080 cause global warming, which results in the breakdown of the 0:23:50.080 --> 0:23:55.480 climate system, extreme weather, rising sea levels, melting polar gaps, 0:23:55.480 --> 0:23:58.359 et cetera, et cetera. We we've just put all of 0:23:58.400 --> 0:24:02.240 that under the umbrella of climate change. But the case 0:24:02.400 --> 0:24:07.520 very specifically talks about greenhouse gas pollution. We treat climate 0:24:07.640 --> 0:24:12.480 change as a symptom of the problem, not as the problem. 0:24:12.800 --> 0:24:15.560 The second part of the case is the other bit 0:24:15.680 --> 0:24:19.040 where the greenhouse gas pollution goes, and that's the ocean. 0:24:19.800 --> 0:24:23.720 And we say that it's making the greenhouse gas pollution 0:24:24.359 --> 0:24:28.080 is making the ocean acid, and that the ocean is 0:24:28.119 --> 0:24:31.399 already understress because it's becoming warmer as a result of 0:24:31.440 --> 0:24:34.919 the increasing global temperatures, and that there are also definite 0:24:35.000 --> 0:24:40.239 trends of deoxygenation in the ocean, and that all of 0:24:40.240 --> 0:24:45.600 this is having a very bad impact on marine wildlife. So, 0:24:45.760 --> 0:24:50.400 in essence, the case has two prongs. One the impact 0:24:51.480 --> 0:24:55.600 on the atmosphere and then the results of all of that, 0:24:56.080 --> 0:24:59.159 and the impact on the ocean and the results of 0:24:59.200 --> 0:24:59.640 all of that. 0:25:00.320 --> 0:25:04.000 And then taken together, those things threaten the right to 0:25:04.040 --> 0:25:05.000 a healthy environment. 0:25:06.160 --> 0:25:10.399 Taken together, those things, in my view, and we argue 0:25:10.400 --> 0:25:14.080 this in the case, are a violation of the rights 0:25:14.119 --> 0:25:17.720 to a healthy environment. And therefore we're saying to the court, 0:25:17.760 --> 0:25:21.160 will you please make a declaration that when the government 0:25:21.240 --> 0:25:26.399 will the state authorized esso to extract oil, the state 0:25:26.520 --> 0:25:30.359 is violating the right to a healthy environment, and that 0:25:30.520 --> 0:25:38.600 right to a healthy environment includes the rights of present 0:25:38.680 --> 0:25:43.439 in future generations, And we point out that greenhouse gas 0:25:43.440 --> 0:25:47.320 pollution has an awful habit of sitting in the atmosphere 0:25:47.760 --> 0:25:51.439 and the impacts are felt for a very long time 0:25:51.640 --> 0:25:57.120 after you've stopped the emissions. So there is a burden 0:25:57.320 --> 0:26:02.360 on future generations, while the benefit, so called benefits, are 0:26:02.400 --> 0:26:06.840 apparently being experienced by the present generations in the sense 0:26:06.880 --> 0:26:09.440 that people say they're getting some money now and they're 0:26:09.520 --> 0:26:15.800 kicking the problem down to future generations. That's the violation 0:26:15.880 --> 0:26:16.679 of the Constitution. 0:26:17.600 --> 0:26:20.199 And where is that case now? What stage is it at? 0:26:20.640 --> 0:26:24.440 So the case was filed under a very simple procedure 0:26:24.480 --> 0:26:26.960 called the fixed state application, where there is no dispute 0:26:27.000 --> 0:26:29.880 on facts, and it was filed against the Attorney General 0:26:29.920 --> 0:26:33.360 as a representative of the state of Guyana. The judge 0:26:33.720 --> 0:26:39.960 then decided that he would add es as an added respondent. 0:26:40.640 --> 0:26:44.720 So the judge converted this statement of case and told 0:26:45.480 --> 0:26:49.320