1 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to a new year of Drilled and our sister 2 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 1: show Damages. I'm Amy Westervelt. Next month we'll be bringing 3 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: you a new narrative season across both shows that is 4 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:28,639 Speaker 1: all about the new wave of oil colonialism underway in 5 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: the global South. Fossil fuel companies can see the writing 6 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: on the wall, and they are raising each other to 7 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: tap all of their reserves. No one wants to be 8 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: the one left standing with the most unsold barrels of oil. 9 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: So we're seeing this explosion of development across Africa, the 10 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:53,480 Speaker 1: Caribbean and Latin America. A lot of these projects fall 11 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 1: into what reporters for The Guardian described as carbon bombs 12 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: last year. I don't know if you're remember reading that 13 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:04,319 Speaker 1: story about how all these companies had committed to emissions 14 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: reductions but also had plans on the books for these 15 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: major fossil fuel developments. Here we are, the carbon bombs 16 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 1: are being built, and there are some efforts underway to 17 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 1: diffuse them. We're going to tell that story through a 18 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: deep dive into what's been happening in one small South 19 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: American country that's gone from being the world's top eco 20 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: tourism destination to one of its largest oil producing states 21 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: in just a few years. That country is Guyana. It's 22 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 1: the only English speaking country in South America. It has 23 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:43,319 Speaker 1: a population of just under eight hundred thousand people, and 24 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: today it is the fastest growing economy on Earth. That's 25 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 1: thanks to a major oil boom led by Exxon Mobile. 26 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: This is a fascinating story with a lot of twists 27 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: and turns. Today as a special preview of what's to come, 28 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 1: bringing you an interview with attorney Melinda Jankie. She's filed 29 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 1: six different lawsuits over the last few years in an 30 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: effort to curb oil development in her home country. As 31 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: you'll hear, Jankie grew up in Guyana, but went to 32 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: university in England and actually worked as in house counsel 33 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 1: for BP before moving home and getting into environmental law. 34 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: Many years before filing her recent cases, Jankie helped to 35 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:28,359 Speaker 1: write the country's constitutional right to a healthy environment, as 36 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: well as some of the bedrock environmental policies in Guyana. 37 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 1: Here she walks us through what's been happening since Exon 38 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: first discovered oil in twenty fifteen. You'll hear our senior 39 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 1: producer and editor Sarah Entry in this interview too. We 40 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 1: are very excited to bring you the full story next month. 41 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 1: Make sure you're subscribed so you won't miss it. I 42 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 1: would love to have you tell me about where in 43 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 1: the country you grew up and what you remember Guyana 44 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:05,799 Speaker 1: being like when you were a child growing up. 45 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 2: I grew up in Sabrianville, which is very close to 46 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 2: the sea, and so every night for the first few 47 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 2: years of my life, I went to bed with the 48 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:20,799 Speaker 2: sound of the sea in my ears, and Sabrianville was 49 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 2: very quiet. We lived with our neighbors basically, so all 50 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 2: the children were in all the houses all of the time. 51 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 2: And I would say I was obviously brought up by 52 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 2: my mother and father, but I was also brought up 53 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 2: by all the other parents in the neighborhood. 54 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 1: Yeah that's so nice, okay, And how did you wind 55 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: up working for BP? 56 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 2: So I basically became a lawyer. I didn't actually want 57 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:54,119 Speaker 2: to be a lawyer. I wanted to be a vet, 58 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 2: but I didn't think I was clever enough to be 59 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 2: a vet. So I thought, well, I'll do law instead, 60 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 2: and discovered that I liked it, and I went to 61 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 2: work for what they call one of the Magic Circle firms. 62 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 2: In London at the time it was called Levels, and 63 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 2: enjoyed it very much, but I thought that there ought 64 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 2: to be a bit more to this, and so I 65 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 2: left and then went to work in industry. And at 66 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:24,039 Speaker 2: the time it seemed like BVP was a good place 67 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 2: to go, and indeed it was. The work was very interesting. 68 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 2: I had far more responsibility than I would have had 69 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 2: if i'd stayed in the law firm. I met some 70 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 2: very interesting people, and I traveled, and you know, when 71 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,480 Speaker 2: you're young, the idea of seeing the world is very attractive. 72 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 2: You want to go to other places, you want to 73 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 2: meet other people, you want to experience other cultures, and 74 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 2: you just want to learn. 75 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And what was it like there? What kinds 76 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: of things did you work on to the extent that 77 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: you're able to say. 78 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 2: Some of the work that I did towards the end 79 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 2: of when I was there was on refinancing, so on 80 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 2: bonds and swaps, and that involved me going to a 81 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 2: lot of capital cities in Europe, which I enjoyed enormously 82 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 2: because that's where we were doing the closings. 83 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 1: And what did you learn about sort of how the 84 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 1: oil industry operates seeing it from the inside. 85 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 2: I think we just take these things for granted when 86 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,840 Speaker 2: you work in the industry. But of course, the purpose 87 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 2: of an oil company is to make money. They have 88 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 2: no other purpose. And I think sometimes people don't realize 89 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 2: that the purpose of the oil company is to make 90 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:41,559 Speaker 2: money and they have no other purpose. They're not there 91 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 2: to promote human rights, they're not there to protect the environment. 92 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,279 Speaker 2: They're there to put the share price up and to 93 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 2: give big fat dividends to their shareholders. The other thing 94 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 2: I think I learned was that they're very efficient, very 95 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 2: very effect at what they do. They're very good at 96 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 2: what they do, and they're very good at telling people 97 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 2: a story about how beneficial this is for the world. 98 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 2: So the oil industry always tells you how good it 99 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 2: is for you to have them, how your life is 100 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 2: much better because they're there, And that has the way 101 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 2: of removing every other narrative. So we have a situation where, 102 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:32,039 Speaker 2: for example, they say, well, we power the world, we 103 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 2: are the energy that keeps the economy going, we heat 104 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:41,719 Speaker 2: your homes, were enable you to cook, and people say, oh, yes, 105 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 2: that's wonderful. They don't say we're frying the planet so 106 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 2: that we can make money, and we are going to 107 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:50,720 Speaker 2: make sure that renewable energy doesn't get anywhere, because that 108 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 2: will put us out of business. So in a way, 109 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 2: I think you sort of understand that oil companies capture 110 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 2: the public mind. I think they capture the political sector 111 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,479 Speaker 2: of society, because I don't think that the fossil fuel 112 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 2: sector would survive if it wasn't for politicians who are 113 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 2: prepared to prop them up, no matter the cost to 114 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:14,119 Speaker 2: the earth. 115 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Okay, what prompted you to leave BP? 116 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 2: I don't think that there is any one thing that 117 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 2: prompted me to leave BP. I suppose the question I 118 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 2: often ask myself is why am I still doing this? 119 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 2: And I think, you know, if you keep doing something 120 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 2: and you get good at it, and then you become 121 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 2: very comfortable, and comfort is a kind of trap, it 122 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 2: makes it more difficult to leave and to grow and 123 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 2: to do different things. But really, also, I was in 124 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 2: a meeting and it was a meeting about swaps, and 125 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 2: one of the people at the table turned to me 126 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 2: and he said, as we were discussing swap, he said, oh, 127 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 2: this is such sexy work. And I thought to myself, 128 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 2: you know, this is really time to leave. 129 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: Okay, And what did you do next? What happened at 130 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:19,239 Speaker 1: that point? When you left? 131 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 2: I left and I had an offer to join a 132 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 2: firm in Guyana, and I decided that this would be 133 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 2: a good time to take up that offer if it 134 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:35,679 Speaker 2: was still available, and I became a partner in the firm. 135 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 2: So when I came back, I had something to go to, 136 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:42,599 Speaker 2: which was extremely fortunate. 137 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:45,319 Speaker 1: And what kinds of things did you work on there? 138 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 2: I worked on generally commercial stuff, because really all my 139 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 2: training and everything that I'd been doing was commercial work, 140 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 2: hard nosed commercial work. 141 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: And how did you get involved with right legislation? 142 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 2: So that started in nineteen ninety four or ninety five 143 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 2: when there was a meeting at the Pegasus Hotel, which 144 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 2: is this big was this big hotel in Man, it's 145 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 2: even bringher now. I wanted to go to the meeting, 146 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 2: but I had no way to go to the meeting 147 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 2: because I was just this completely unimportant individual and the 148 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 2: meeting was by invitation only, and then there were some 149 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 2: press passes. And the other partner in the firm was 150 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:40,239 Speaker 2: someone called David Decareys, who was the owner and publisher 151 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 2: and editor of Stabreick News. And I said to him 152 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 2: that I wanted to go to the meeting, and he said, 153 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 2: I'll give you a press pass. So I went and 154 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 2: it was interminably boring, but in the break I was 155 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 2: able to talk to one of the government officials and 156 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 2: say to him that I had looked at their draft 157 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 2: Environmental Act and I thought that it was inadequate. And 158 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 2: he didn't brush me off. He said, oh, well, send 159 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 2: me something about it. I mean, I suppose that was 160 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 2: the brush off, but I didn't think it was a 161 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 2: brush off. I thought that it was actually really a 162 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 2: really exciting opportunity. So I wrote a paper explaining why 163 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 2: I thought this Act was inadequate. The next thing I 164 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 2: knew was they asked me if i'd like to actually 165 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:29,960 Speaker 2: work on this as a consultant, and so I said yes, 166 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 2: and I was hired. I think the IDB paid for 167 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:36,959 Speaker 2: it because they had a team working on it at 168 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 2: the time, and so that's how I became involved in 169 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 2: drafting the legislation. And I worked with the rest of 170 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 2: the IDB people, none of whom were lawyers, and the 171 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 2: result was this completely completely changed piece of legislation. I 172 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 2: put in all the stuff on the environmental impact assessment. 173 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 2: I put in the impact on the climate the impact 174 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 2: on the atmosphere. And this is nineteen ninety five, ninety six, 175 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 2: This is at a time and nobody really was thinking 176 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 2: about those things. And I put in principles of environmental management, 177 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 2: so things like the pollutera pays that you have to 178 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 2: take action to the precautionary principle. And I put in 179 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 2: principles of natural capital, which again people really weren't talking 180 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 2: about and even now seems to be unknown again even 181 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:31,439 Speaker 2: though it's been in the legislation since nineteen ninety six. 182 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:35,199 Speaker 1: How did you get interested in this stuff? Like you were, 183 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: you know, a commercial lawyer, worked in industry. How did 184 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 1: you start to learn about environmental legislation and or was 185 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:46,680 Speaker 1: this like something you'd always been interested in and just 186 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:48,559 Speaker 1: hadn't been able to work in. 187 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 2: Well, I think when you grew up with nature, then 188 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 2: you have a relationship with the world around you, and 189 00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 2: then if you're a lawyer, you sort of at some 190 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:05,079 Speaker 2: point I suppose that to connect. And I wanted to 191 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 2: protect Guyana's environment. I wanted to protect the nature that 192 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 2: I grew up with and that I think everybody should 193 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 2: have a chance to grow up with. 194 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,839 Speaker 1: How did the constitutional rate to a healthy environment come 195 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:21,680 Speaker 1: about well. 196 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 2: This was just another one of those opportunities. The government 197 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 2: decided that they would look at the constitution and that 198 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:33,679 Speaker 2: they would begin a process of constitution reform, and they 199 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 2: set up different committees and subcommittees and it was all 200 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 2: terribly exciting. I wasn't on any of the committees, but 201 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 2: I was interested in the constitution bit of it, and 202 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 2: I decided that I would write something and send it 203 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 2: to them as a sort of background paper that would 204 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 2: add to the discussion. So I looked at constitutions around 205 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 2: the world that at that time had the right to 206 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 2: healthy environment, and then I put forward the arguments for 207 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 2: having it in the Constitution and I sent it to 208 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 2: the committee. I happened I didn't know two of the 209 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 2: people on the committee, so I think that helped to 210 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 2: get people to read it, and they decided that it 211 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 2: was worth paying attention to, and they said to me 212 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 2: that they would use it and that they would recommend 213 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 2: that the right to a healthy environment went into the Constitution. 214 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 2: And actually what they did was to adopt entirely the 215 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:37,439 Speaker 2: provisions from South Africa, which I think was a good 216 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 2: move to do at the time. 217 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 1: Coming up after the break, Exxon finds Oil and Melinda 218 00:13:45,960 --> 00:14:03,959 Speaker 1: starts filing cases. Stay with us. Talk me through the 219 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 1: path from working at this firm. You're getting involved in 220 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 1: some of the legislation. How do you then start filing 221 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 1: cases around environmental issues. 222 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 2: Well, I had left the firm to become a consultant 223 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 2: and that gave me a lot more freedom to do things. 224 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 2: And then I actually I went away and then came 225 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 2: back again. And at the time, nothing much was happening 226 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 2: until suddenly in twenty fifteen, ex All announced that they 227 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 2: had found oil, and my heart just sank because I 228 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 2: know oil is a disaster and it's the worst possible 229 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 2: thing that could have happened to Geana. And people just 230 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 2: began to go crazy at the idea of all this 231 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 2: oil wealth. They were talking exclusively in terms of oil wealth. 232 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 2: But I thought that we were really heading for trouble. 233 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 2: And sure enough, the first thing that we saw was 234 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 2: that they changed. They entered into a new agreement which 235 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 2: was secret. They wouldn't release it to people. When they 236 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 2: finally released it, it was atrocious. The previous government had 237 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 2: signed an agreement that was very much in favor of Exon. 238 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 2: The next government which came in took that agreement and 239 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 2: made it even more favorable to the oil companies, so 240 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 2: you can see why the government wanted to keep it secret. 241 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 2: They had also taken eighteen million dollars which they hid 242 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 2: in a secret bank account instead of putting it into 243 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 2: the consolidated fund, so right from the beginning this was problematic. 244 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 2: Then they ESSO, which is the low subsidiary. You see, 245 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 2: this dealer is not with Exon Mobile Corporation, the big 246 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 2: company that has billions of dollars worth of assets, albeit 247 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 2: assets that may well be stranded assets, but nevertheless assets. 248 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 2: This subsidiary is registered in the Bahamas and doesn't have 249 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 2: anything anything like the assets that Exon Mobile Corporation has, 250 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 2: So you're dealing with somebody who is thin on the ground. 251 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 2: SOSO started to do this environmental impact assessment. It was 252 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 2: absolutely atrocious. It was done by erm who have Exon 253 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 2: Mobile as their clients. Anyway, you are supposed to have 254 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 2: the environmental impact assessment done by an independent consultant. Now 255 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 2: independent obviously means independent of the person for whom you're 256 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 2: doing it. That rule was breached from day one. But 257 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 2: people were so excited about this oil that no one 258 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 2: was focusing on this, and the environmental Impact Assessment has 259 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 2: things like ESSO will be allowed to put four thousand 260 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 2: barrels of sewage into the sea every day. They carried 261 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 2: out studies of birds using bird lists that are very 262 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 2: old from the nineteen sixties. They went out into the 263 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 2: sea and they looked at the fish, and they came 264 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 2: back and they said the most common fish was the 265 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:38,440 Speaker 2: unidentified flying fish. And the regulator, the Environmental Protection Agency, 266 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 2: raised no objections to any of the stuff that they 267 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,920 Speaker 2: had put into the Environmental Impact Assessment and issued a 268 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:50,640 Speaker 2: permit on the first of June twenty seventeen, in which 269 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 2: they said that ESSO was authorized to carry out the 270 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 2: laza I project in accordance with the Environmental Impact Assessment 271 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 2: also dated the of June twenty seventeen, and the Environmental 272 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 2: Management Assessment dated the first of June twenty seventeen, and 273 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:14,159 Speaker 2: various other documents dated the first of twenty seventeen. These 274 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:18,400 Speaker 2: documents run to fifteen hundred pages or more. So it 275 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 2: is a mystery as to when exactly the Environmental Protection 276 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 2: Agency read these documents, if in fact they did read. 277 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:32,439 Speaker 1: Them, Wow, what was the first case you failed? 278 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:36,920 Speaker 2: So this is happening in twenty seventeen and it's becoming 279 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 2: increasingly obvious that the sector is going to do whatever 280 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 2: it wants to do. So at this event, the advisor 281 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,360 Speaker 2: to the President on oil was telling people that they 282 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 2: didn't really know the oil industry and they had to 283 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 2: trust the oil companies. I was utterly outraged by that, 284 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:59,440 Speaker 2: particularly as it was coming from someone who was very 285 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 2: close to the president. And I began talking to someone 286 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 2: there and he said he would like to do a case, 287 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 2: but nobody would do the case for him to challenge 288 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 2: the oil and I said, I'll do it now. I 289 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 2: had not done litigation for a very long time, and 290 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,919 Speaker 2: I thought I'll get someone else to help with this, 291 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 2: but in fact I couldn't get anybody to help with 292 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:28,439 Speaker 2: it until a senior council who was based in Trinidad 293 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:31,679 Speaker 2: agreed to take the case and to do it with me. 294 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 2: And the case was completely unfunded. We had a little 295 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:38,400 Speaker 2: crowd justice thing, a little crowd justice page, and some 296 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 2: of the Guyanese diaspora gave us one thousand dollars and 297 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 2: that's how we started. I had no clerk. I had 298 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 2: to go and line up at the Court Registry with 299 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 2: the documents and wait. My turn, and everybody would push 300 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 2: in front of me because they know how the system 301 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 2: works and I don't. And eventually I got the documents 302 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 2: stamped and filed, and then so on the other side. 303 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:02,439 Speaker 2: And then the case began. 304 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 1: And what case was that? 305 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 2: The case is Raymond Gaskin against the Minister of Natural 306 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:12,160 Speaker 2: Resources in the environment and then the judge added, so 307 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 2: exploration production gay and limited, Hess gan A limited and 308 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:20,160 Speaker 2: se next in petroleum gayanulimited. So the three oil companies 309 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,639 Speaker 2: that are part of the petroleum agreement that was redone. 310 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 2: And the case is very simple. So so has an 311 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 2: environmental permit, the same permit that I mentioned that was awarded, 312 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 2: but Hess and s don't. However, the minister who was 313 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 2: the respondent in the case, the minister gave a petroleum 314 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 2: production license to all three of the oil companies. Our 315 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 2: argument is that you can't do that. You can only 316 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 2: give a petroleum production license to someone who has already 317 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 2: met the requirements of the Environmental Protection Act and has 318 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 2: obtained an environmental permit. And we say that's exactly what 319 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 2: the Act says. Now its opposing counsel has stood up 320 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 2: in court and given a different interpretation of the legislation, 321 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 2: and I can say it's a little frustrating for me 322 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:14,680 Speaker 2: because I wrote those sections and I know exactly what 323 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 2: they mean, but you can't really say that in court. However, 324 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 2: the case went to the Chief Justice and we waited 325 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 2: a year for a decision. She ruled against mister Gaskin. 326 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:36,400 Speaker 2: We appealed the case within two days. It was heard 327 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 2: earlier this year, and we are now waiting for the 328 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:44,440 Speaker 2: Court of Appeal to give their decision. Under the Time 329 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 2: Limit for Judicial Decisions Act, the Court of Appeal is 330 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 2: required to give their decision within thirty days. That thirty 331 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 2: days expired some time ago, and we have written to 332 00:21:56,119 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 2: the court asking them for their decision, king them to 333 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:01,360 Speaker 2: give their decision. 334 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: Can you walk us through the constitutional case, the case 335 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 1: that invokes Guyana's constitutional right for a healthy environment? How 336 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:10,920 Speaker 1: did that begin? 337 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:17,439 Speaker 2: Definitely? So, as oil production, as zoil activities in the 338 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 2: country continue, it's becoming increasingly apparent to people that deepwater 339 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 2: drilling is extremely dangerous, but also that the result of 340 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:33,399 Speaker 2: this activity is killing the planet. And so I was 341 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 2: talking to d De Troy Thomas from the University. Now. 342 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 2: Dr Thomas had at that stage already filed a case 343 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:46,679 Speaker 2: against es SO, and I was his lawyer on that 344 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 2: case along with Sinasjirahm, who had also been the senior 345 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 2: council in the Gaskin case, and that in that case 346 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:57,200 Speaker 2: we cut SOS permits down from over twenty three years 347 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:01,159 Speaker 2: to five years. So Dr Thomas had already been in 348 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:04,199 Speaker 2: court once on this and decided that he would like 349 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:10,640 Speaker 2: now to continue and do something else because fossil fuel 350 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:17,159 Speaker 2: production and greenhouse gases are killing the future basically, so 351 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 2: he decided that he wanted to do the case. I 352 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 2: said that I would do it, and Cordad Defratus, who 353 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,880 Speaker 2: is a young Wapachan youth from the South Roupernuni, said 354 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 2: that he also would like to be in the case. 355 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:34,160 Speaker 2: So we have those two litigants. In essence, the case 356 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 2: is very simple, and it says that when you burn 357 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:43,920 Speaker 2: fossil fuels, they emit greenhouse gases, and those greenhouse gases 358 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 2: cause global warming, which results in the breakdown of the 359 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 2: climate system, extreme weather, rising sea levels, melting polar gaps, 360 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,359 Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera. We we've just put all of 361 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 2: that under the umbrella of climate change. But the case 362 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 2: very specifically talks about greenhouse gas pollution. We treat climate 363 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 2: change as a symptom of the problem, not as the problem. 364 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 2: The second part of the case is the other bit 365 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 2: where the greenhouse gas pollution goes, and that's the ocean. 366 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 2: And we say that it's making the greenhouse gas pollution 367 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 2: is making the ocean acid, and that the ocean is 368 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,399 Speaker 2: already understress because it's becoming warmer as a result of 369 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,919 Speaker 2: the increasing global temperatures, and that there are also definite 370 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:40,239 Speaker 2: trends of deoxygenation in the ocean, and that all of 371 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 2: this is having a very bad impact on marine wildlife. So, 372 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:50,400 Speaker 2: in essence, the case has two prongs. One the impact 373 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 2: on the atmosphere and then the results of all of that, 374 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,159 Speaker 2: and the impact on the ocean and the results of 375 00:24:59,200 --> 00:24:59,640 Speaker 2: all of that. 376 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 1: And then taken together, those things threaten the right to 377 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: a healthy environment. 378 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 2: Taken together, those things, in my view, and we argue 379 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 2: this in the case, are a violation of the rights 380 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 2: to a healthy environment. And therefore we're saying to the court, 381 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:21,160 Speaker 2: will you please make a declaration that when the government 382 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:26,399 Speaker 2: will the state authorized esso to extract oil, the state 383 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:30,359 Speaker 2: is violating the right to a healthy environment, and that 384 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 2: right to a healthy environment includes the rights of present 385 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:43,439 Speaker 2: in future generations, And we point out that greenhouse gas 386 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 2: pollution has an awful habit of sitting in the atmosphere 387 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,439 Speaker 2: and the impacts are felt for a very long time 388 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:57,120 Speaker 2: after you've stopped the emissions. So there is a burden 389 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:02,360 Speaker 2: on future generations, while the benefit, so called benefits, are 390 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 2: apparently being experienced by the present generations in the sense 391 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 2: that people say they're getting some money now and they're 392 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 2: kicking the problem down to future generations. That's the violation 393 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:16,679 Speaker 2: of the Constitution. 394 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,199 Speaker 1: And where is that case now? What stage is it at? 395 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 2: So the case was filed under a very simple procedure 396 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:26,960 Speaker 2: called the fixed state application, where there is no dispute 397 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,880 Speaker 2: on facts, and it was filed against the Attorney General 398 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,360 Speaker 2: as a representative of the state of Guyana. The judge 399 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 2: then decided that he would add es as an added respondent. 400 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 2: So the judge converted this statement of case and told 401 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 2: es So and the Attorney General to just respond to 402 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:51,640 Speaker 2: the fixed state application as if it was a statement 403 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 2: of claim and to ignore the affidavit in support they 404 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 2: put in their defenses. Then we put in another affter. 405 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 2: David responded to that the Attorney General has not, and 406 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 2: then ESSO decided to find an application to strike out 407 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 2: statements in Dr Thomas's AFFI David of Witness statement, according 408 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 2: to ESSO, climate change is a matter of scientific opinion. 409 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 2: Climate change is not fact. According to ESSO, ocean acidification 410 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,639 Speaker 2: is not fact. It's a matter of opinion. And throughout 411 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:30,400 Speaker 2: their application, throughout the Affidavid put in by ESO, they 412 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 2: say that all of these things need to be proved 413 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 2: by experts, and that Dr Thomas is not an expert 414 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 2: and therefore cannot say that climate change exists, or that 415 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:45,679 Speaker 2: ocean acidification exists, or the extreme weather exists, et cetera. 416 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, I didn't realize that they were that they 417 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 1: were going there. 418 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 2: So in addition, we have quoted extensively, of course, from 419 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 2: esso's own documents, including the Greenhouse Gas review that came 420 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 2: out I think round about nineteen eighty nine or sometime 421 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,200 Speaker 2: around then. They say this is hearsay and they want 422 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 2: to take it out. Their own documents are hearsay. They 423 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 2: say that their own document is hearsay and has to 424 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 2: be taken out. We have also referred to Darren Woods's 425 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 2: testimony on Oath to Congress last year in October twenty 426 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,880 Speaker 2: twenty one, when he said that excellent Mobile has long 427 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,479 Speaker 2: known about climate change and they say that this also 428 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:28,880 Speaker 2: is hearsay and should be taken out. 429 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 1: Wow, okay, and I know you have six cases altogether. 430 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:35,400 Speaker 1: Now what are the other cases? 431 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 2: So I've mentioned three so far, the Gaskin case, the 432 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 2: permit's case with Dr Thomas, and the climate change case. 433 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 2: December twenty nineteen, SO announced that they had begun production. 434 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 2: They call it first oil, and at that moment the 435 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 2: then president, President Granger, was so completely over excited that 436 00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 2: he wanted to declare that day a national holiday. So 437 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 2: this is when they say that they began production. The 438 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,720 Speaker 2: environmental permit says that the associated gas, which is the 439 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 2: gas that comes up with the oil, is to be 440 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 2: used as fuel on board the FPS, so the floating 441 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 2: production storage of floating vessel, and then any gas that's 442 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 2: not used is to be reinjected. In January twenty twenty, 443 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 2: fishermen reported seeing this vast fire in the sky, and 444 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 2: it turned out that ESSO was in fact flaring the 445 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 2: gas and not reinjecting it, but they had not said 446 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 2: so to the Environmental Protection Agency. The Environmental Protection Agency. 447 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 2: The EPA has no presence on board the fpso it's 448 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty miles offshore. The EPA has absolutely 449 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 2: no idea what's going on there, and they rely entirely 450 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 2: on ESSO for information. So they are all self reported. 451 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 2: It's all self reported, and the regulator no attention to 452 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 2: its statutory duties. Now, obviously, people again are not fools. 453 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 2: They may think we're stupid, but we're not. People took 454 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 2: great exception to ESO flaring and harming the environment, and 455 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 2: if you look at the press for twenty twenty and 456 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 2: twenty twenty one and so on, there was great outrage 457 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 2: in the country at this flaring. And then they were 458 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,479 Speaker 2: told that they had to cut back on production in 459 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 2: order to reduce the flaring, and that was done by 460 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 2: the then head of the EPA. So the head of 461 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 2: the ep at this time was very different to the 462 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 2: person who was the head of the EPA in twenty seventeen, 463 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 2: and he took a much stricter line. This is Dr 464 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 2: Vincent Adams, and he was very experienced in dealing with 465 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 2: oil companies and he had worked at a very senior 466 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 2: level in the United States. It turns out that the 467 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 2: reason that ESO was flaring was that their gas compressor 468 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 2: wasn't working. So the reason for flaring was defective equipment. 469 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 2: This gas compressor went all the way to Germany and 470 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 2: then it came back again and it's still wasn't working. 471 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 2: So we decided that this needed to be taken a 472 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 2: bit more seriously, and I was approached by three women 473 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 2: who said that they wanted to do something about this flaring. 474 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 2: One is a university lecturer, Seneca Henry, one is an 475 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 2: environmental activist Selina Nagere, and one was a student at 476 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,960 Speaker 2: the University Andrisk Tarrington. And so the three of them 477 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 2: decided to file this case basically saying that the Environmental 478 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 2: Protection Agency acted wrongly because it changed the environmental permit 479 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 2: to allow ESO to flare, and in returnes SO would 480 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 2: pay to FLAREESO says that they were allowed to flare anyway, 481 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 2: and the EPA said is that they are entitled to 482 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 2: do this under the legislation. That's the case that's in 483 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 2: front of the judge. The case was brought against the 484 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 2: Environmental Protection Agency, but the judge added so again, so 485 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 2: we are waiting for a decision on that case. Now 486 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 2: earlier this year says permit expired and the EPA renewed it. 487 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 2: As far as we can tell, they didn't inform anybody. 488 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 2: SOO did not apply for the permit. If they did, 489 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 2: the application is a secret and it is supposed to 490 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 2: be publicly available, and there was no environmental impact assessment. 491 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 2: So two women decided that they would challenge this. One 492 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 2: is Seneca Henry, who is a litigant in the flaring case, 493 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 2: and the other is Denuto rad Zig, who is a 494 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 2: human rights activist. And they say that the Environmental Protection 495 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 2: Agency acted on lawfully when it issued this new permit 496 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 2: to so SO and didn't carry out an environmental impact assessment. 497 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:09,480 Speaker 2: I mentioned earlier the flaring. I mentioned the faulty equipment. 498 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 2: In fact, esso's local boss has sworn an affy David 499 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 2: in court, saying that the reason that they are flaring 500 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 2: is because of this failure of their mechanical equipment and 501 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 2: that despite multiple repairs, it's still not working. Now, when 502 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 2: you have equipment that is not working in oil production, 503 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 2: that is a very serious situation. Then we hear that 504 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 2: they are operating above the safety limits of the floating 505 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:46,680 Speaker 2: production storage of floating vessel. Dr Vincent Adams, who was 506 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 2: the previous head of the EPA and was then removed 507 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 2: when the new government came in, has been warning that 508 00:33:53,800 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 2: this operation poses significant danger. These systems' failures can lead 509 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 2: to a well blowout. Little things were what caused the 510 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:10,360 Speaker 2: Bpmcondo well blowout and the BP Macondo well blowut happened 511 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 2: in the Gulf of Mexico. The United States of America 512 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 2: has more experience, more resources, more expertise, more technology, more boats, 513 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 2: more everything than anybody. And that happened in just in 514 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 2: the Gulf of Mexico. And yet it was devastating. 515 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 1: Okay, and then there's one more sixth case. 516 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 2: So we have a very very difficult situation in Guyana. 517 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 2: The cases are taking a long time to get through 518 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 2: the court. I mentioned the Gaskin case one year to 519 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:46,239 Speaker 2: get a decision from the judge, another year while we 520 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,240 Speaker 2: wait for it to be heard by the Court of Appeal, 521 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 2: the Flaring case where we're waiting for a decision, the 522 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:56,360 Speaker 2: Permit's case where we have to wait two months before 523 00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 2: the judge even has a hearing. In the mean time, 524 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 2: Guyana is in grave danger. Now. Guyana has nothing. This 525 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 2: country knows nothing about oil and even less about oil 526 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:14,400 Speaker 2: danger and oil spills. There's not a single person in 527 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 2: this country that knows what to do if there is 528 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 2: a problem. The risk to Guyana is incredible. This oil production. 529 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:30,320 Speaker 2: This is a reckless gamble by the government of Guyana 530 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:35,319 Speaker 2: with the future of Guyana. It's a reckless gamble by 531 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 2: the government of Guyana for the entire Caribbean. The maps 532 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 2: show that if there is a well blowout, that oil 533 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:47,720 Speaker 2: is going to end up in Caribbean countries. Caribbean sisters 534 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:53,880 Speaker 2: and brothers, and they depend on tourism for their economy. 535 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 2: A lot of the Caribbean economy is based on tourism. 536 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:01,920 Speaker 2: They depend on the fishing. So you have a situation 537 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:08,600 Speaker 2: where Guyana's oil production could potentially destroy Caribbean economies. We 538 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 2: are talking about billions of dollars worth of loss in 539 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 2: addition to devastating the biodiversity of the region. And you 540 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:23,360 Speaker 2: can't put a price on that. It's all very well 541 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 2: to say, well, we can compensate the tourism sector, but 542 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,239 Speaker 2: you can't walk into a shop and buy a new 543 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 2: sperm whale. The wildlife that is in this part of 544 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:39,080 Speaker 2: the world is incredible. We have rare species and all 545 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 2: of this is at risk because of this oil drilling 546 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,400 Speaker 2: has a permit. Now, if essays in breach of that permit, 547 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,879 Speaker 2: who's liable? Well, of course we would say that ESSO 548 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,200 Speaker 2: is liable. But I already told you this is an 549 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,920 Speaker 2: offshore company that doesn't have billions of dollars worth of assets. 550 00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 2: It's going to come back to Guyana because it's Guyana. 551 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 2: Oh right, Caribbean countries want to sue someone. They're going 552 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:03,320 Speaker 2: to suit Guyana. 553 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:05,040 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, and here's why. 554 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:08,319 Speaker 2: So doesn't have the billions of dollars that it could 555 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:12,720 Speaker 2: compensate people for. And what happens then, well, the Caribbean 556 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:18,759 Speaker 2: countries could come to Guyana and ask Guyana to pay compensation. Now, 557 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 2: under international law, you can be liable for trans boundary harm. 558 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:28,280 Speaker 2: Ghana is not doing its due diligence. It's not ensuring 559 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:33,560 Speaker 2: that ESO adheres to the Environmental Protection Act. It's not 560 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:37,600 Speaker 2: ensuring that SOO is running its operations properly. Why on 561 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:40,440 Speaker 2: Earth would you allow somebody to continue producing oil when 562 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:45,080 Speaker 2: you know that their gas compressor is defective. What sort 563 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:49,920 Speaker 2: of government allows an oil company to operate above the 564 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,879 Speaker 2: safety limits? There have already been spills, so SO has 565 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:57,680 Speaker 2: been fined for those spills. Obviously, this is a dangerous operation, 566 00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:02,600 Speaker 2: and obviously the government is not doing its due diligence 567 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 2: and it's not enforcing the law, and therefore the government 568 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 2: is at fault. And that means that Guyana could end 569 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 2: up liable for billions of dollars if and I hope 570 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 2: that this will never happen, if there's any kind of 571 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:23,040 Speaker 2: well blower or oil spill. The oil industry calls these 572 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,880 Speaker 2: things unplanned events, and they tend to use these horrible 573 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:31,280 Speaker 2: Weazley terms to pretend that actually they're not destroying the planet, 574 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:35,080 Speaker 2: but that is exactly what they're doing. And this graverust 575 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:40,440 Speaker 2: to Guyana financially. So the next case is a case 576 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 2: where the plaintiffs are saying to the court there must 577 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:50,239 Speaker 2: be an unlimited parent company guarantee. There is a provision 578 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:54,719 Speaker 2: in the Environmental Permit for insurance and for something called 579 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:59,440 Speaker 2: financial assurance. Insurance obviously is bog standard industry insurance, and 580 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:03,600 Speaker 2: it will cover things that oil industry insurance usually covers. 581 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:08,120 Speaker 2: But there's something else, which is financial assurance, and the 582 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 2: permit says that SO must provide a parent company indemnity 583 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:16,400 Speaker 2: for all of the liability that might be imposed on 584 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:20,560 Speaker 2: Guyana as a result of their activities in the stab 585 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:24,000 Speaker 2: Rick Block. The activities in the Stabric Block are the 586 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:28,279 Speaker 2: oil drilling and the oil production and the impacts of that. 587 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:32,680 Speaker 2: If there is a system's failure, those impacts could be 588 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:36,040 Speaker 2: very costly and it is for the oil companies to 589 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:40,560 Speaker 2: bear those costs. So basically, the case says Ghana is 590 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,840 Speaker 2: not going to have to pay that money, ESO have 591 00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,160 Speaker 2: to pay that money, And because we know that you 592 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:50,719 Speaker 2: don't really have that money, we demand a parent company 593 00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:59,200 Speaker 2: guarantee an indemnity, a legal undertaking that Exon Mobil Corporation 594 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:04,359 Speaker 2: is on the hook for whatever those costs are, and 595 00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 2: there is no limit to that liability, an unlimited indemnity 596 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:14,000 Speaker 2: from Exonomobile. And that's exactly what it means. It means 597 00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:19,759 Speaker 2: that however much the damages Exonmobile Corporation has to pay, 598 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,839 Speaker 2: that we don't know what it could be. It could 599 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,959 Speaker 2: be a small amount of their value, or it could 600 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:30,040 Speaker 2: be a large amount of their value. Given that Bpmcondo 601 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:34,319 Speaker 2: roughly cost about seventy billion and the cleanup is still 602 00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:39,040 Speaker 2: going on, Given that that was ten years ago, and 603 00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:42,799 Speaker 2: given that there were no other countries involved, I think 604 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:46,200 Speaker 2: we can say that seventy something billion is the minimum. 605 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:48,880 Speaker 2: I think we can be sure that if there is 606 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:54,799 Speaker 2: a well blowout or a spill, then the costs will 607 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:59,560 Speaker 2: be far in excess of anything in the Macondo well blowout, 608 00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:06,360 Speaker 2: over one hundred billion, maybe even higher. We simply don't know, 609 00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,400 Speaker 2: but there is no way that Guyana is going to 610 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:13,600 Speaker 2: be on the hook for that. And that is what 611 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:17,160 Speaker 2: this case is about. It's saying you, Excell Mobile Corporation, 612 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:22,319 Speaker 2: are responsible for the damage done by your subsidiary. So 613 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:25,600 Speaker 2: the case has been filed. The papers were served the 614 00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:29,160 Speaker 2: day before yesterday. Now the case was filed as urgent. 615 00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:32,040 Speaker 2: Obviously it's urgent because every single day that they're out 616 00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,240 Speaker 2: there drilling and they're using defective equipment, and they're operating 617 00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:37,600 Speaker 2: above the FPSO levels and they're saying that there's a 618 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:41,080 Speaker 2: spill every single day is a risk that something terrible 619 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:44,960 Speaker 2: could happen. So we've said this case is urgent and 620 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,279 Speaker 2: we hope that we can get a hearing date as 621 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,760 Speaker 2: soon as possible. Analyticans in this case are Frederick Collins, 622 00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:55,040 Speaker 2: who is an insurance professional now retired and a colleague 623 00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:58,000 Speaker 2: of his, Godfrey White. All the cases are brought by 624 00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:02,560 Speaker 2: citizens of Ghana. There is no civil society organization involved 625 00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,480 Speaker 2: in any of the cases. And it's one of the 626 00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:10,400 Speaker 2: interesting aspects of Guyana that the so called conservation organizations 627 00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:14,960 Speaker 2: do not criticize Exon Mobil, do not criticize the oil. 628 00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:18,760 Speaker 2: WWF has been saying it's possible to protect the ocean 629 00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,840 Speaker 2: and drill for oil. I have no idea what planet 630 00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:25,320 Speaker 2: that's possible on, but anyway, that's what they say. Conservation 631 00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,680 Speaker 2: International took ten million US dollars from Exon Mobile. They 632 00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:32,200 Speaker 2: say that they've given it back. The Gana Marine Conservation 633 00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:36,239 Speaker 2: Society has four government agencies on its board and so 634 00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:37,160 Speaker 2: on and so forth. 635 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:40,839 Speaker 1: Wow, that's interesting, because yeah, I feel like a lot 636 00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:45,680 Speaker 1: of the litigation of this kind in the US is 637 00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:49,120 Speaker 1: being mostly funded by NGOs. 638 00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,799 Speaker 2: Yeah. In general, civil society in this country has not 639 00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:58,280 Speaker 2: stood up against the oil in order to protect Guyana, 640 00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:04,160 Speaker 2: and so it's come down to courageous individuals who are 641 00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:07,200 Speaker 2: prepared to say no, I'm not putting up with this. 642 00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:10,920 Speaker 2: It has also been very difficult to get lawyers in 643 00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,120 Speaker 2: Guyana to work on these cases, but that is beginning 644 00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:14,760 Speaker 2: to change. 645 00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:17,320 Speaker 3: Why is it that it's been hard to get lawyers 646 00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:18,440 Speaker 3: to work on those cases. 647 00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:23,440 Speaker 2: Many lawyers are uninterested because they see the oil work 648 00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:27,600 Speaker 2: as potentially extremely lucrative and they obviously would like to 649 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:31,479 Speaker 2: earn the money. Some think that this is just about 650 00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:33,520 Speaker 2: the environment and the human rights and that we should 651 00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:36,040 Speaker 2: be focused on the economy. And I think some are 652 00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:38,680 Speaker 2: just afraid of standing up to the government and the 653 00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:39,360 Speaker 2: oil sector. 654 00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:41,279 Speaker 1: And what does that. 655 00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:44,040 Speaker 3: Mean for the individuals or sundown is what against a 656 00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:47,239 Speaker 3: case like this like the if lawyers are afraid to 657 00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:50,279 Speaker 3: stand up to it and NGOs aren't standing up to it, 658 00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:53,080 Speaker 3: and it's left to these individuals to put their names 659 00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:55,000 Speaker 3: on these cases, like what kind of a risk is. 660 00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:56,919 Speaker 1: It for them? 661 00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:01,400 Speaker 2: Generally in Guyana, it's been individuals who have been standing 662 00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:05,680 Speaker 2: up and saying no. So I think all of the 663 00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:11,359 Speaker 2: litigants decide for themselves whether that is a risk that 664 00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:14,640 Speaker 2: they want to take. And I would say that, you know, 665 00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:20,600 Speaker 2: these are amazing people, and there are very few people 666 00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:23,520 Speaker 2: in this country so far who have been prepared to say, 667 00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:27,319 Speaker 2: you know what, I am going to stand up. I'm 668 00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:30,880 Speaker 2: not just going to sit back and accept this. And 669 00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:35,480 Speaker 2: what's really encouraging is that two of the litigants are 670 00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:39,120 Speaker 2: at the University of Guyana as lecturers. One is a dean, 671 00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:42,440 Speaker 2: Troy Thomas is a dean, one is a student at 672 00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:47,040 Speaker 2: the University of Guyana. And yet oil money is going 673 00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:48,400 Speaker 2: to the University of Guyana. 674 00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:51,480 Speaker 1: I just watched a speech that the President gave it 675 00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:55,680 Speaker 1: the Woodrow Wilson Center to this effect that Guyana is 676 00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:58,600 Speaker 1: going to be an oil for just a short amount 677 00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:02,680 Speaker 1: of time to get enough money to fund its low 678 00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:08,000 Speaker 1: carbon development plan and green transition, and then it's going 679 00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:11,000 Speaker 1: to get out. So, like, you know, don't worry, and 680 00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:14,160 Speaker 1: I just would love to hear your response to that story. 681 00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:18,000 Speaker 2: Well, I think it's self serving bullshit and economic insanity. 682 00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:20,799 Speaker 2: There is no way you can say that you're going 683 00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:24,799 Speaker 2: to do oil for a short time. By definition, when 684 00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:27,959 Speaker 2: you start doing oil, it's for the long haul. That's 685 00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:32,719 Speaker 2: why ESSO has been given permits for twenty years. We 686 00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:36,760 Speaker 2: know perfectly well that all across the globe now fossil 687 00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:41,760 Speaker 2: fuel assets are rapidly becoming stranded assets. So that tells 688 00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:46,239 Speaker 2: me that the government really has no grasp of the 689 00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:51,200 Speaker 2: global energy market, has no grasp of the way the 690 00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:55,239 Speaker 2: world is moving. Everybody is moving to renewable energy. The 691 00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:58,200 Speaker 2: countries that are struggling to remove the renewable energy the 692 00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:01,200 Speaker 2: ones that are locked into fossil fuels. And that's why 693 00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:05,040 Speaker 2: the global North is now looking to shift all of 694 00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:10,160 Speaker 2: those interests to African countries and places like Guyana. You know, 695 00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:13,680 Speaker 2: it's a bit like the smoking. New outlawed smoking and 696 00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:18,160 Speaker 2: then suddenly cheap cigarettes began to appear everywhere else. So 697 00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:22,480 Speaker 2: ghan is an extremely rich country and for fifty five years, 698 00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:27,160 Speaker 2: the political parties, the PNC and the PPP and then 699 00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:31,719 Speaker 2: more recently they're sort of offshoot the AFC, have run 700 00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:36,080 Speaker 2: this country into the ground. Where are Guyana's gold reserves? 701 00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:37,840 Speaker 2: Where is the money from the gold? Where is the 702 00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:39,560 Speaker 2: money from the box side, Where is the money from 703 00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:42,319 Speaker 2: the diamonds, Where is the money from the sugar, Where 704 00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:44,319 Speaker 2: is the money from the agriculture, Where is the money 705 00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:47,920 Speaker 2: from the fishing, etc. The list is almost endless because 706 00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:53,359 Speaker 2: we are so full of wealth and yet the people 707 00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:56,319 Speaker 2: in this country are poor. We have people sleeping on 708 00:46:56,360 --> 00:47:00,680 Speaker 2: the streets and eating out of the bins. Point in 709 00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:03,799 Speaker 2: anybody saying oil is going to make Guyana rich. We 710 00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:07,440 Speaker 2: have had year after year after year of resource curse, 711 00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:10,160 Speaker 2: and now we have something that is infinitely worse, which 712 00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:14,040 Speaker 2: is the oil curse. And there's not a single government 713 00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:19,120 Speaker 2: official in this country that is prepared to do what 714 00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:21,160 Speaker 2: is in the best interests of Ghanna. 715 00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:37,240 Speaker 1: Drilled and damages our original critical frequency productions. Our editor 716 00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:41,200 Speaker 1: and senior producer is Sarah Ventry. Sound design and mixing 717 00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:45,200 Speaker 1: by Peter Duff, who also composed our original theme music. 718 00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:50,200 Speaker 1: Fact checking by Anna Poujol Mazzini. 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