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Speaker 1: Oh boy, welcome to It could happen here, and it

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Speaker 1: sure do feel like it's happening, don't it. Um, thank

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Speaker 1: you for surviving that last long, excruciating episode full of

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Speaker 1: basically just like a bunch of hate speech that we

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Speaker 1: were trying to be like, Hey, doesn't this look like

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Speaker 1: hate speech? This is bad. Maybe platforms like Spotify, YouTube

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Speaker 1: other podcast hosting platforms that I am somehow forgetting the

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Speaker 1: name of, but perhaps they shouldn't be hosting all of

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Speaker 1: this Daily Wire content that is explicitly calling for genocide. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: I think it is interesting what the Daily Wire is

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Speaker 1: trying to do here because they obviously saw what is

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Speaker 1: a Woman the documentary, the quote unquote documentary by Matt

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Speaker 1: Walsh last year get incredible traction online and boost their

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Speaker 1: subscription service. So now they're they're they're doubling dead on

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Speaker 1: this because this is how they're gonna try to make content,

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Speaker 1: and they are trying out as many rhetorical styles and

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Speaker 1: arguments as possible just to see what sticks. Like it

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Speaker 1: really feels like they're just doing like the shotgun method

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Speaker 1: of like throwing every single possible reason that trans people

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Speaker 1: are ikey up against the wall and seeing which one

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Speaker 1: like catches on like they're doing. They're doing a ban

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Speaker 1: and transgenderism entirely, what is a woman? Groomers? They can't

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Speaker 1: be genocided because they don't exist. Attacking transgenderism as a

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Speaker 1: cover for trans people. Right, So it's all these all

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Speaker 1: these various various tactics, all these different rhetorical strategies, calling

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Speaker 1: them demonic it's, it's, it's it's very much trying to

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Speaker 1: be like if we, if we, if we throw up

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Speaker 1: as much stuff as possible, attacking and demonizing trans people.

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Speaker 1: Some of these trends will catch on online, right, some

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Speaker 1: of these will will catch on, will be spread to legislators.

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Speaker 1: Eventually something will stick. And that that is that is

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Speaker 1: very much the tactic that they are trying to use.

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Speaker 1: And I think this is a point I wanted to

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Speaker 1: make last episode, but I think it's still it's it's

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Speaker 1: it's useful to hear now kind of in retrospect everything

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Speaker 1: all of the like extremism that you heard in the

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Speaker 1: last episode, all of these like very very fascist talking points.

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Speaker 1: This is what conservatism is now, right, Like this is

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Speaker 1: the mainstream new right. Sure you can call it fascist

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Speaker 1: because by definition it is but sometimes that term fascist

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Speaker 1: or fascism, it carries with it this false sense of foreignness.

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Speaker 1: It has like this, it has like this displacement in

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Speaker 1: the time. Right most people view fascism as something that

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Speaker 1: happens elsewhere or something that happened in the past. By

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Speaker 1: by by just referring to this stuff as fascist, it

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Speaker 1: creates a distance in people's minds. This this like um

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Speaker 1: exotic improbability. But this stuff is like the mainstream conservative

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Speaker 1: platform that the up and coming leaders of the conservative

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Speaker 1: movement are trying to normalize. That this was like the

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Speaker 1: main talking point at Pack, which is like the biggest

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Speaker 1: conservative convention in the entire country. It is this stuff

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Speaker 1: is is what the conservative platform is now. Um, and

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Speaker 1: I think it is. It is just as important to

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Speaker 1: emphasize that this is what the modern conservative mainstream is,

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Speaker 1: and it is it is. It is just as important

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Speaker 1: to say that as it is to tie it and

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Speaker 1: tie this rhetoric to the history of fascism, because the

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Speaker 1: Overton window is certainly accelerating. Right, Like, this thing can

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Speaker 1: both be heavily steeped in the history of fascist rhetoric

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Speaker 1: and also be like the new, up and coming version

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Speaker 1: of the conservative right that the Daily Wire and its

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Speaker 1: allies are trying to normalize. And I just think that

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Speaker 1: is that is something that I that I am trying

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Speaker 1: to focus on a little bit more when I when

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Speaker 1: I'm doing my writing and my research in these topics,

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Speaker 1: is that we often will use terms like fascist because

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Speaker 1: these things are are pretty fascist, and I want to

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Speaker 1: make sure that doesn't like create this false distance in

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Speaker 1: people's in people's minds when they when they think about

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Speaker 1: these bills, when they when they think about this rhetoric. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I think I think the way in which this

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Speaker 1: is simply what the modern right is demands a different

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Speaker 1: kind of response than a lot of what we've been

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Speaker 1: seeing so far. Yeah, you can't simply try to catch

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Speaker 1: them in their contradictions. You can't simply catch them in

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Speaker 1: their hypocrisy. Every every tactic that liberals tried to use

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Speaker 1: against Trump in the lead up to his election, and

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Speaker 1: even Republicans try to use those tactics aren't going to

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Speaker 1: be successful here because they weren't successful back then. Like,

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Speaker 1: you can't you can't like outthink them in that in

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Speaker 1: that in that way. Well, but the reason that you

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Speaker 1: like when you when you call out say the governor

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Speaker 1: of Tennessee or a lieutenant governor or whatever Tennessee for

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Speaker 1: about his hypocrisy and how addressed dragon stuff. It's not that.

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Speaker 1: The thing that that does to defend it a little

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Speaker 1: bit to that calling out is it doesn't make his supporters,

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Speaker 1: It doesn't change his mind, It doesn't expose him as

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Speaker 1: a hypocrite to his base, but it does expose him

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Speaker 1: as a hypocrite to his enemies. And I think it

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Speaker 1: is worth understanding that are the people who have declared

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Speaker 1: us their enemies. It's worth understanding that they are not

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Speaker 1: like um morally consistent actors. You know, it is worth

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Speaker 1: understanding that they don't believe the things they are saying.

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Speaker 1: A lot of their base does. But so I actually

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Speaker 1: do think that there is a point all of the

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Speaker 1: shit talk on Trump or whatever. I think might be

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Speaker 1: part of how Trump didn't get elected again is because

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Speaker 1: he as he got more and more defensive, he looked

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Speaker 1: more and more ridiculous, not to his base, but to

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Speaker 1: the middle, which is basically the Democrats at this point. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was able to recruit like a growing moderate oppositional force,

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Speaker 1: which was what beat Trump. Trump was not beaten because

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Speaker 1: people liked Biden. He was beaten because he didn't like Trump,

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Speaker 1: and I think you are you are right and having

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Speaker 1: that that is a point to focus on. UM. I

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Speaker 1: think it's it's important to mention that like fascists do

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Speaker 1: not believe in the absurdity of what they say, UM,

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Speaker 1: it is that that is not necessary to maintain fascism.

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Speaker 1: And I think I think so the position that we're

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Speaker 1: at right now is a very very strange one for

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Speaker 1: the left, which is that we are in a position

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Speaker 1: where you know, when when when the Republicans tried to

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Speaker 1: run on this ship in in in twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 1: they got destroyed. Right, this is actually have mass popularity.

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Speaker 1: This is what I wanted to talk about next. I

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Speaker 1: have this is this is the very last section I

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Speaker 1: have written is on this topic. Because yeah, this off

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Speaker 1: putting focus on like genocide and like the culture war

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Speaker 1: stuff seemed to hurt conservatives in the last election cycle

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Speaker 1: ly and yet again they are they are they are

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Speaker 1: still doubling down on it. Um. Voters in some swing

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Speaker 1: states were turned off by the focus on the regression

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Speaker 1: of queer rights instead of like actually addressing material conditions.

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Speaker 1: This strategy, though, is a core concept of the fascist

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Speaker 1: project right. Instead of addressing material conditions under capitalism to

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Speaker 1: improve people's lives, right wing populists will conjure up this

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Speaker 1: culture war bilgie Man to blame all of like society's

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Speaker 1: problems on and to to talk about the social war

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Speaker 1: that is contributing to degeneracy. I also think that they're winning,

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Speaker 1: unfortunately not winning in a broader sense, but in terms

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Speaker 1: of um Yes, this is a very unpopular issue that

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Speaker 1: they're doubling down on. But I think that you know,

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Speaker 1: I've I've seen studies where like a higher percentage of

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Speaker 1: the US population supports antitrans stuff than did two years ago.

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Speaker 1: It's still a minority thing to hate trans people, but

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Speaker 1: it is a growing minority, yes, which is why, like

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Speaker 1: we're talking about how in a lot of ways it's

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Speaker 1: easy to be trans in twenty fifteen than it is now.

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Speaker 1: And kind of on that point, I'm going to play

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Speaker 1: the very final clip of Michael Knowles. We will never

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Speaker 1: have to hear his voice again, fully, his annoying little voice,

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Speaker 1: but I'm gonna play a bit of a longer clip

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Speaker 1: from him, and this is from his initial like band

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Speaker 1: Transgenderism Entirely Rant and I'm only going to play this

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Speaker 1: because he actually makes a point that we ourselves have

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Speaker 1: made before when discussing this topic. The conservative right is

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Speaker 1: desperately trying to play catch up. Right, Us who believe

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Speaker 1: in like liberation and freedom have been winning historically, and

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Speaker 1: the rights getting very scared and desperate. So in response,

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Speaker 1: they're introducing all of these bills right, and they're they're

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Speaker 1: accelerating these types of eliminationist rhetoric. But in this clip,

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Speaker 1: Michael Knowles provides us with our pathway to victory. We

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Speaker 1: cannot simply hold our ground on these issues. We have

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Speaker 1: to keep pushing forward because as long as we keep

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Speaker 1: going forward and get on the offense, the right will

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Speaker 1: be stuck playing a ketch up forever. And it reminds

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Speaker 1: us of eight truth and politics that Republicans all too

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Speaker 1: often forget. You're either on offense or you're on defense.

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Speaker 1: You're either making gains in the culture or you're losing

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Speaker 1: ground in the culture. There's no standing still, there's no

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Speaker 1: status quo, there's no neutrality. And what the Conservatives have

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Speaker 1: screwed up on for at least fifty years now, probably more,

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Speaker 1: is the Libs make some crazy aggressive play and then

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Speaker 1: we try to dial it back by about five to

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Speaker 1: ten percent, or worse, we try to slow it down

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Speaker 1: by about five to ten percent. So the Libs attack

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Speaker 1: the family through feminism, the fundamental political institution. They claim

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Speaker 1: that men and women are basically the same. That takes

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Speaker 1: the culture pretty far to the left. And then conservatives

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Speaker 1: try to try to inch it back a little bit.

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Speaker 1: But by the time they're even thinking about inching it back,

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Speaker 1: the Libs push forward with the normalization of other sexual practices.

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Speaker 1: They agree with this possi And then by the time

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Speaker 1: the Conservatives are trying to dial all that back, they've

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Speaker 1: lurched much further to left. They're trying to redefine marriage.

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Speaker 1: Now they're saying, redefine marriage. Well, I don't know, I

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Speaker 1: guess we could come to some kind of terms with

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Speaker 1: a civil union. And by the time you say that,

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Speaker 1: who they lurched even further to the left. Now they're saying, actually,

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Speaker 1: we've got transgenderism. Actually, now a man can become a woman,

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Speaker 1: a man can become a woman, okay, but but maybe

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Speaker 1: we shouldn't do it till mine. By the time we

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Speaker 1: say that, whop, oh my gosh, we're now we're all

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Speaker 1: the way off the screen because now they're trying to

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Speaker 1: trains the kids, and there are many conservatives never were saying, look,

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Speaker 1: if you want, if you're a man and you want

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Speaker 1: to put on address, that's fine, but just don't do

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Speaker 1: it to children. Just don't make me pay for it. No,

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Speaker 1: that is such an interesting little cliff. No, I mean

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Speaker 1: it's funny because this is like kind of this is

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Speaker 1: what I've been saying for a long time, since about

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Speaker 1: twenty fifteen or so, like looking at the rise all

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Speaker 1: this shit and you know, Trump and all that, is

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Speaker 1: that we were winning culturally. I hate the word culture

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Speaker 1: war and now I means something different. It means arguing

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Speaker 1: about guns or whatever. But like we were winning on

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Speaker 1: a cultural front very dramatically, and like I would point

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Speaker 1: to Stephen Universe as the evidence that we are winning, right,

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Speaker 1: you know, And then they basically had to play to

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Speaker 1: their strengths, and he's talking about He's like, look, it's

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Speaker 1: funny that so much of this is happening on a

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Speaker 1: cultural front because it is not a conservative strength. They

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Speaker 1: have some cards in their hand when it comes to

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Speaker 1: cultural stuff, you know, the antimidarity stuff. When it does

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Speaker 1: weird anti semitic, you know, almost anti capitalism or whatever.

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Speaker 1: That's like a strong card they like pulling out all

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Speaker 1: the time. But conservatives overall are not very good at

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Speaker 1: the cultural thing. But they're good at is politics and violence.

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Speaker 1: And so they're playing to their immediate strengths as hard

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Speaker 1: and fast as they can because they're on their back foot. Yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: they are. They're they're defaulting to advocating physical violence and

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Speaker 1: enforcing their worldview with violence and advocate and doing stuff

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Speaker 1: on like the political legislative front, because they've realized just

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Speaker 1: screaming about transpeople isn't enough. They have to actually start

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Speaker 1: dedicating millions and millions and millions of dollars to pushing

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Speaker 1: these through state legislative cycles, which is why The Daily

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Speaker 1: Wire has spent the past month and a half harping

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Speaker 1: twenty three is starting to like ramp up. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: I think there's another thing here, which is the sort

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Speaker 1: of fundamental disparity, you know, the fact that they've chosen

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Speaker 1: this front, right, there's a fundamental disparity in what they

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Speaker 1: have to do versus what we have to do, right,

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Speaker 1: And and this this, this is a giant sort of

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Speaker 1: shift in a way that I don't think has we

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Speaker 1: don't I don't think the left really has much experience with, right,

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Speaker 1: which is, like, the thing that is happening in the

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Speaker 1: US right now is that we are the cylent majority,

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Speaker 1: Like this is this is true when when like consistently

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Speaker 1: over and over again, when you when you look at

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Speaker 1: polling on these issues, right, like just regular people are like,

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Speaker 1: what the fuck are you guys doing? Right? The problem

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Speaker 1: is that you know, we haven't those people haven't been mobilized,

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Speaker 1: and you know, it doesn't matter if you're a majority

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Speaker 1: as long as these sort of like you know, because

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Speaker 1: because again like who the actual majority is in the

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Speaker 1: US or like who actually what what what actual regular

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Speaker 1: people believe has very very little impact on the kinds

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Speaker 1: of policies that are that are that are sort of enacted.

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Speaker 1: But you know, but there's a second sort of issue here, right,

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Speaker 1: which is the conservatives have like, because of the fact

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Speaker 1: that we are right now of the sort of silent majority,

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Speaker 1: that we have a kind of I guess you know,

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Speaker 1: the gram syn thing would be like hegemony, right, but

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Speaker 1: like we have we have an advantage in just how

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Speaker 1: average people behave. Right, they have to kill us. They

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Speaker 1: have to fucking kill us. They have to make it

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Speaker 1: legal for us to exist. And they could do this

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Speaker 1: right there, there is a there is a real there

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Speaker 1: is a real possibility that they can win. Right. They

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Speaker 1: are winning on this rent right now. This is this

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Speaker 1: is what they are, you know, in the places where

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Speaker 1: they have power. This is what they are doing. All

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Speaker 1: we really have to do is survive. Because if if

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Speaker 1: we revive and we're able to stop them, you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean, even if we don't get sort of like

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Speaker 1: Argentina style, like we're gonna have like like hiring mandates

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Speaker 1: for trans people. Like even if we just hold the

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Speaker 1: ground that we already have, we will win inevitably. Right

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Speaker 1: Like the sort of march of where of where the

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Speaker 1: culture has been going will favor us. Trans people will

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Speaker 1: be able to sort of exist in public. Trans people

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Speaker 1: will be able to survive unless they kill us right now.

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Speaker 1: And that's that's that's sort of that's the sort of

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Speaker 1: the key thing that that Knowles has realized, right is

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Speaker 1: that this is the critical moments where either we win

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Speaker 1: and we in trans people get to continue our lives,

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Speaker 1: or they kill us I would argue that it's not

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Speaker 1: just kill us. I think that even though we're listening

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Speaker 1: to all this exterminationist rhetoric, I think that the odds

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Speaker 1: are that most of these people don't actually envision a

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Speaker 1: future where they're like rounding us up and putting us

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Speaker 1: in camps and gassing us. I think that overall, it's

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Speaker 1: a drive back into the closet. I actually I actually

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Speaker 1: take them at their word that they want to destroy transgenderism,

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Speaker 1: and if transgender people have to die along the way,

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Speaker 1: that's on us. But if we, you know, put on

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Speaker 1: appropriate clothing and shut the fuck up, like, I actually

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Speaker 1: think that that would suit them just fine. So I

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Speaker 1: actually think they have to kill transgenderism. I think that's

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Speaker 1: true now, but I don't know how true that is

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Speaker 1: as they keep actually having to implement. But there they

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Speaker 1: don't think being trans actually exists though, right like they

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Speaker 1: they think it just is people doing these things. So

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Speaker 1: as long as trans people are able to, for one,

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Speaker 1: maybe even not even realize their trans to like repress

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Speaker 1: that and just live their lives as if they were

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Speaker 1: as this person, that that that is all that that

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Speaker 1: that's what conservatives think trans people already are and I

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Speaker 1: think that that is a large part. That is a large,

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Speaker 1: large part of it is making us just not able

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Speaker 1: to be trans in public life at all in any capacity.

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Speaker 1: I think that's true. But I don't I don't think

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Speaker 1: they can. I don't think their political path allows them

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Speaker 1: to maintain that position. Like I don't. I don't think

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Speaker 1: they can, like I like, you know what, one of

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Speaker 1: the things that's happening with with right right now is

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Speaker 1: they're they're they're they're doing this feedback loop right where

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Speaker 1: they get you know, like like where where they're they're

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Speaker 1: sort of media people right or are continuously radicalized by

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Speaker 1: their base, and their base radicalizes them back. And I

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Speaker 1: don't I don't think they can maintain an equilibrium position

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Speaker 1: that doesn't involve like we have to hunt all these

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Speaker 1: people down to make sure they don't go after our kids,

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Speaker 1: like I know, I don't don't think they're gonna I

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Speaker 1: don't think they're doing that now. I don't think they're

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Speaker 1: planning that now. But it's it's I don't know how

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Speaker 1: they can keep up this cycle without eventually getting to

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Speaker 1: something like that. Well, it's worth it's worth being prepared

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Speaker 1: for that type of possibility, But The kind of thing

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Speaker 1: that I feel like, really strongly about with all of

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Speaker 1: this is to like really not like the sky is falling,

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Speaker 1: but it's not falling the way that we sometimes say

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Speaker 1: it is. And and when we say this guy is

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Speaker 1: falling in a way that people look around, they're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: just know how this guy is falling to me, then

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Speaker 1: people get like, well, actually, I think you all are

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Speaker 1: being hyperbolic, right, And so I think that we do

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Speaker 1: need to be really clear that they are open to

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Speaker 1: the possibility of mass murdering us, and they are actively

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Speaker 1: discussing individual acts of violence being very justified against us.

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Speaker 1: But currently I believe the thing that they are trying

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Speaker 1: to do is eradicate the concept of being trans as

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Speaker 1: a thing you can do in American society. And of course,

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Speaker 1: like there's a lot of people who believe in death

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Speaker 1: before detransition, and all fucking power to I don't even

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Speaker 1: know where I fall in all this shit. I'm not

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Speaker 1: trying to. I literally don't want to opine about it

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Speaker 1: because I don't want to give anyone. I don't want

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Speaker 1: to tell anyone to do about that shit. Right, Everyone

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Speaker 1: makes their own decisions about closeting, not closeting based on

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Speaker 1: their own positions, you know, But I think we do

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Speaker 1: have to be like careful about it. And I think

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons because from my point of view,

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Speaker 1: they have picked trans people not because they care so

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Speaker 1: much about us, but because we're a wedge issue. You know.

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Speaker 1: We saw this in like, um, actually I don't want

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Speaker 1: to name them because I don't want to get or whatever,

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Speaker 1: like different large coalitions of LGBT people were perfectly willing

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Speaker 1: to drop the T twenty years ago if in order

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Speaker 1: to get certain like equal rights ship passed. They just

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Speaker 1: like straight up like trans people did all this fucking

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Speaker 1: work organizing for this ship. As soon as it got

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Speaker 1: to like higher up level in the government, they were like, oh,

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Speaker 1: trans people, that's gonna be a problem. Well it, We're

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Speaker 1: gonna take them off of there, right And you know,

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Speaker 1: and because we are a wedge issue, and we always

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Speaker 1: have been, and I think the Nazis used us in

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Speaker 1: a very similar way. But even within US there's transit sory,

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Speaker 1: there's wedge issues within that, and so sports was the

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Speaker 1: first wedge issue. I actually believe I was reading this earlier,

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Speaker 1: but I wasn't reading it for this, So I didn't

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Speaker 1: take notes. I believe that the majority already of Americans

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Speaker 1: do not believe that trans people should be able to

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Speaker 1: compete in high school sports based on their preferred gender.

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Speaker 1: I'm under the impression that is a minority position to

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Speaker 1: be trans supportive of trans athletes in school, and so

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Speaker 1: that is the wedge issue that they used to open

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Speaker 1: up this divide in order to then come at us.

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Speaker 1: But we're still just a wedge issue. And one of

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Speaker 1: the reasons I think it's so important for people to

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Speaker 1: understand us as a wedge issue is so that people understand,

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Speaker 1: like really clearly that they are not fucking stopping with us.

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Speaker 1: You know, this is like absolutely about like you can

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Speaker 1: hear it and that guy talking because one of the

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Speaker 1: other things he's talking about is he's talking about like

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Speaker 1: women need to get back in the kitchen and be

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Speaker 1: obedient to their husbands and shit. And one of the

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Speaker 1: reasons that trans people scare them so much is because

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Speaker 1: we like, like it's so funny because like largely, by

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Speaker 1: and large, like trans men are left out of this

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Speaker 1: discussion and trans women are seeing these like evil monsters

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Speaker 1: or whatever, right, but trans men are absolutely part of

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Speaker 1: it because massive massive threat, absolutely, because it's stealing women

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Speaker 1: from them. It is stealing their fucking wives that they

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Speaker 1: want to have. They want to fucking own women, and

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Speaker 1: like so they can't handle the idea of anyway whatever.

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Speaker 1: I know a lot of a lot of the things

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Speaker 1: they get so mad about is when they see a

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Speaker 1: young transgai on TikTok and they're like, look, sorry, this

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Speaker 1: is going to be like gross, but like, look at

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Speaker 1: this potentially beautiful woman who's now been ruined, Like just horrible, horrible, horrible, right,

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Speaker 1: But that is we have so many grown men, like

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Speaker 1: thirsting over fourteen year old like a fab people who

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Speaker 1: are who are deciding that hey, maybe I want to

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Speaker 1: start HRT, maybe I want to use different pronouns, maybe

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Speaker 1: I want to have a binder and this they get

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Speaker 1: so so mad at that. And I think a big

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Speaker 1: part of not not simply I think I think it

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Speaker 1: is truly not enough just to hold our ground. We

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Speaker 1: have to keep going forward, and a big part of

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Speaker 1: that is having more intersectionality with transmasculine people. A big

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Speaker 1: part of that is having a much much more of

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Speaker 1: a focus on gender nonconforming people and non binary people.

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Speaker 1: Um because we have we have to keep pushing it forward.

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Speaker 1: We cannot simply hold our ground on this because if

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Speaker 1: if we simply hold our ground, they can pull out

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Speaker 1: the rug from from under us. UM. So I think

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Speaker 1: that is that is that is a massive part of this,

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Speaker 1: and I think I do believe that we will win.

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Speaker 1: I fundamentally do because if you look at if you

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Speaker 1: look at like the rights of which young people Zoomers

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Speaker 1: and even the generation younger than Zoomers, I do not

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Speaker 1: know what they're called, um, but if you look at

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Speaker 1: the aunt amount of amount of us who are who

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Speaker 1: who self identify us non binary, trans or gender nonconforming,

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Speaker 1: it is so much bigger than any previous generation people.

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Speaker 1: Once people experience a form of freedom, it is hard

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Speaker 1: to take that freedom away. There are so many people

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Speaker 1: who are entering their teens and are realizing they can

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Speaker 1: be so much more free and they don't need to

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Speaker 1: be limited to these weird, draconian like dualistic notions of gender.

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Speaker 1: And that's a If you look at a whole new

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Speaker 1: wave of like actors and actresses and people in the

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Speaker 1: entertainment industry, almost all of our non binary, like the

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Speaker 1: person who plays Ellie in the in the Last of

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Speaker 1: us is trans. Um. I believe they identify TRANSU, non

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Speaker 1: binary or some sort of of gender queer. But this

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Speaker 1: doesn't play Ellie like that too anyway. I just like absolutely,

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Speaker 1: but this is something that that keeps happening. We are

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Speaker 1: going to win this because there's so many of us

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Speaker 1: and we know that it rules to exist like this

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Speaker 1: and we're not going to let them take it away.

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Speaker 1: And I think that that is a big part of

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Speaker 1: not only standing our ground, but continuing to move forward

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Speaker 1: with the confidence that we will win in the long run. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I think that we can. And I think that

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Speaker 1: like a lot of the stuff, including myself, right um,

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Speaker 1: I'm famously armed. I'm someone who you know, believes in

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Speaker 1: self defense and um and all of these things, right um.

431
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,359
Speaker 1: But I think we always need to like focus on

432
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,960
Speaker 1: our strengths when it comes to being especially on the offense. Right.

433
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:08,800
Speaker 1: And so when I think about like strategizing how do

434
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,080
Speaker 1: we win the stuff that you're talking about about staying

435
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:13,680
Speaker 1: on the offensive makes so much sense. And I think that,

436
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,359
Speaker 1: to misquote the art of war, you attack your enemy

437
00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:19,439
Speaker 1: where they are weak and you are strong, you know,

438
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 1: and so like, and they are weak at cultural creation

439
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,240
Speaker 1: and I don't mean culture wars and culture war issues

440
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:32,040
Speaker 1: really like art, like creativity. Yeah, and so like we

441
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:36,280
Speaker 1: win because we say because our ideas are good, and

442
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 1: when we express them, people are like, oh that sounds sick.

443
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,400
Speaker 1: I want to be free right yeah. Um. Now, at

444
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 1: the same time, we need to shore up our weaknesses.

445
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 1: And I think our weaknesses at the moment are in

446
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 1: the political sphere, which we're at on a back We're

447
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:55,679
Speaker 1: on the back foot right now because of all the

448
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:58,399
Speaker 1: I guess I don't track this stuff as much, but

449
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:00,480
Speaker 1: like all the judges and shit that got put in

450
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:04,960
Speaker 1: under Trump, and we are also not at our strongest.

451
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to call us week here, but like

452
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,159
Speaker 1: far few of us, fewer of us are like weird

453
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 1: gun nuts and like no you know, militant strategy protect

454
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 1: e type people. And I we've seen us shoring up

455
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,680
Speaker 1: that weakness and that rules. But I think it's always important.

456
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:24,199
Speaker 1: Maybe not always, maybe there would be a time when

457
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 1: this would shift, but overall, I don't think that's our strength.

458
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 1: That's not where we go on the offense. That is

459
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:37,560
Speaker 1: where we stay, like protecting ourselves, yes, and no defense

460
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,320
Speaker 1: like drag defense, square defense that has defense in the

461
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:46,639
Speaker 1: name exactly, it is crucially important. Exactly. It also terrifies

462
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,960
Speaker 1: the fascist rights. The fact that the fact that like

463
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,160
Speaker 1: like that, on one hundred and forty pounds, Twink can

464
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 1: carry an aar and defend a drag show terrifies fascists.

465
00:24:56,119 --> 00:25:02,679
Speaker 1: It utterly destroys their brains. You know. For sequalizations a

466
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:07,639
Speaker 1: hell of a thing, Sorry, buddy. The trigger pole is

467
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 1: two and a half pounds. Yeah, you know what else

468
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 1: is a forkey force, equalizer swords, for the force of advertising,

469
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,919
Speaker 1: and pole arms. As long as we don't have an

470
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 1: ad for Rabbit Air, who has an office in Pasadena, California,

471
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:46,119
Speaker 1: I'm fine. So I think if you've listened to the

472
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,679
Speaker 1: show a lot, they're They're one of the sort of

473
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 1: sub themes of a lot of the writing that I

474
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:57,880
Speaker 1: do is thinking about what we owe the dead. And

475
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 1: on the face of it, it's a sort of nonsensical question, right,

476
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 1: you can't have any kind of reciprocal relationship with someone

477
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:11,399
Speaker 1: who's dead, because well, you know they're dead. And this

478
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 1: this question, this question of what we owe the dead,

479
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 1: is a question board of grief, of a kind of

480
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 1: sort of raw and immaculate anguish that comes to the

481
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,400
Speaker 1: memory of people who are like you in every way

482
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 1: except that you're here and they're not. And this was written,

483
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:31,160
Speaker 1: you know, this has written seven weeks ago. The people

484
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:37,119
Speaker 1: this is written for aren't even the same people that

485
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 1: you know that that that like that that is for

486
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 1: now right, The question in some sense becomes, what do

487
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,160
Speaker 1: we owe the people who have died and were thus

488
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 1: denied to live, denied the chance to live the lives

489
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,640
Speaker 1: that we do. You know what, what do we owe them?

490
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 1: What do we owe these people that we failed to

491
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,639
Speaker 1: keep alive? And this has an answer, this has this

492
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 1: has a very very definite political answer. We owe them

493
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 1: the destruction of the world that killed them. We owe

494
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:05,679
Speaker 1: them a future that we owe them the future that

495
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 1: they should have had. And we owe them, we owe

496
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 1: them a world where they never take another one of this,

497
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: another one of us. Again. The world is already fucking burning.

498
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 1: It is time to start the counterfire. Now. One of

499
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:21,400
Speaker 1: one of the things that you that you will hear

500
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,880
Speaker 1: a lot, and this, this is this has been this

501
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 1: has been one of the sort of dominant responses, for

502
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 1: better or for worse, from how people are thinking about

503
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 1: these laws, is that these laws you know these anti

504
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:38,679
Speaker 1: trans laws are unconstitutional and that does not matter. That

505
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 1: does not matter for shit, right like oh oh, our

506
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 1: old friend the constitution ha ha, Like I just, I just,

507
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,879
Speaker 1: I need. I need everyone to understand that the ability

508
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 1: of the Supreme Court to strike down a law is

509
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 1: not in the Constitution. None of this ship matters. They're

510
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 1: making all of it up. The only thing that actually

511
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 1: matters is power. And to understand why the law is

512
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,440
Speaker 1: about power and you know, and why legality is not

513
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,119
Speaker 1: actually a tool that we can rely. I want to

514
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 1: I want to tell the story. I'm not sure if

515
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 1: I've told this story on this podcast before, but I

516
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 1: want to tell the story of the worst mistake I

517
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:20,680
Speaker 1: ever made as an activist. So the year is two

518
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 1: thousand and seventeen. Donald Trump's Executive Order one three seven

519
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 1: six nine huocally known as the Muslim Ban, has prevented

520
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 1: people from Iran, Iraq before they drop a rock later, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria,

521
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 1: and Yemen from entering the country. Now, almost immediately after

522
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 1: the Muslim Ban is announced, um there is a spontaneous

523
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 1: wave of airport occupations that sweeps the country. And these

524
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 1: protests have two goals. Their immediate goal is to free

525
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 1: the people who have been taking captive by immigration authorities

526
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 1: before they can be deported, and the second goal is

527
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 1: to end the Muslim ban more broadly. This was this

528
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 1: was actually this is my first Irrel direct action. Um

529
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 1: I you know, I remember I was in this train

530
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,479
Speaker 1: car on the Blue Line to O'Hare, which is our

531
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 1: our airport in Chicago. And you know, I'm on this

532
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 1: train and it's packed and everyone is completely silent, and

533
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 1: you know, everyone thinks people are going to get off.

534
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 1: And as we get to this airport, we realized that

535
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 1: the entire train is completely full of protesters. Like everyone

536
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 1: on there's a protester, and it goes on and on

537
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 1: and on, and we get off the train right and

538
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 1: we're walking through the airport. And the way this airport

539
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 1: is structured is there's like this overpass that you walk

540
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 1: over where you can see the trains coming in and

541
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: every single train is full of protesters and the trains

542
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 1: keep coming and they keep coming in, they keep coming,

543
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 1: and you know, every everyone and every time a train

544
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 1: shows up, everyone starts cheering. It is like it is,

545
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 1: you know, like one of the most amazing things I've

546
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 1: ever been a part of and you know, and we

547
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 1: we start moving and there are just two. You know,

548
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 1: this is a fucking this is an airport, right like,

549
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 1: this is one of the most heavily policed places in

550
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 1: the world. There are not not enough cops to stop us.

551
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 1: And you know, they make this one token attempt to

552
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 1: try to clear us, and they can't do it. And

553
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 1: they pull back. And now we are holding the airport,

554
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 1: and we do it. We beat them, We win. The

555
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 1: airport releases the detainees. They've they've been negotiating with the

556
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 1: a CLU. The ASU have been trying to get me released.

557
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 1: And the person from the person from the ALU, like God,

558
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 1: comes on the mic and announced that they've they've released everyone,

559
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 1: and everyone chairs and then and then the person on

560
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 1: the ALU person on the mic says they're going to

561
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 1: beat the Muslim band in court and everyone goes home.

562
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 1: It takes a few hours, but by the end of it,

563
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 1: everyone goes home. And here's the thing. The a CLU

564
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: several years later lost that case at the Dream Court.

565
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 1: The Muslim band continued the entire fucking chump administration. Right,

566
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 1: it wasn't repealed until Biden took office. We could have

567
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 1: stopped it there, right, we held that fucking airport. Airports

568
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 1: across the country, like dozens and dozens of states were

569
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 1: being held by protesters, and we could have stopped them,

570
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 1: but we didn't, and we didn't because we trusted the courts.

571
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: Right we went home, We trusted the slu and they

572
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 1: lost because again, the law is not about the law.

573
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 1: The law is about power, and millions of people suffer

574
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 1: the consequences of that. And this is what's going to

575
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 1: happen if we if we leave this fight to the courts,

576
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 1: either either we actually sort of like stand up and

577
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 1: actually fight not in the courtroom but in the streets,

578
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 1: in schools, in salons and shop floors, in the places

579
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 1: where we have power, or we are going to die.

580
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 1: That is my intro to this, which is that we

581
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 1: cannot we literally like, if we try to leave this

582
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 1: to the people who have been acting right now, right,

583
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 1: if we leave this electorialists, if we leave this to

584
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 1: sort of legal institutions, and if we purely fight self

585
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 1: defense battles, we are going to lose. Yeah. So the

586
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 1: question from there is how do we hit them back?

587
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 1: And the thing that I specifically wanted to talk about

588
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 1: first is I wanted to talk about this thing called

589
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 1: power mapping. Now, Okay, the moment you went you say

590
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 1: the word map around leftists, people immediately start talking about

591
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 1: how the map is not the terrain. And that's true, true,

592
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 1: the map is not the terrain. They're different things. Nope,

593
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 1: but both are useful. Yeah, like, yeah, you still want

594
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 1: a map when your hiking, even though it's not. Actually

595
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 1: the rains spash the maps, spash the maps. Walk situation

596
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 1: is practice, walk around the city without a map, but

597
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 1: mess up the maps. It sabotaged the masks. Yeah, don't

598
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:38,479
Speaker 1: walk through the forest about a fucking map. The forest

599
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 1: is dispassionate and cruel and will kill you. So all right,

600
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 1: So what is power mapping? So there there is a

601
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 1: normal version. There is a version of this that gets

602
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's part of sort of like what

603
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 1: I guess you would call like the liberal version of

604
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 1: organizer training one oh one, which is this like pure

605
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 1: NGO thing, which is you know, I guess you could

606
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 1: you could argue it's from like a like like from

607
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 1: Salo Lynsky or whatever the fuck um and and this

608
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 1: this version about it is this this version is about

609
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: finding and pressuring quote unquote stakeholders. This is almost completely

610
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 1: useless to us. It's largely politically bankrupt, and tactically it

611
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:19,959
Speaker 1: is simply not going to work, right, Like, there is

612
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 1: some value in mapping out which specific like legislators and

613
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 1: which specific governors are going to like sign bills, right yeah,

614
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 1: but like, okay, NGO style pressure campaigns are not going

615
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 1: to stop this. This is simply not going to work. Um.

616
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 1: And the strategies that people have been employing to sort

617
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 1: of stop this, right which is you know, relying on

618
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 1: our suffraget our pain and relying on medical expertise that

619
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 1: that doesn't that doesn't work. It's weigh them. It lacks

620
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 1: the diversity of tactics. Yeah, the only language people understand

621
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 1: is power. So okay, having said all this, we can

622
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 1: strategically use other groups like NGOs or sympathetic lawmakers to

623
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 1: do their own pressure campaigns. But that that that is

624
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 1: not what I'm talking about here. We can leave. We

625
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 1: can leave those people in their terrain. They're paid to

626
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 1: do it. Don't get sucked up into it. But you know,

627
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 1: and I will say, like, okay, sometimes very strategically right, like,

628
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 1: you can you can show up to people's events and

629
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 1: embarrass them because you know who they are and what

630
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 1: they're doing, and then that that that can be useful sometimes,

631
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 1: like I I you know, I sci shame can be

632
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 1: can be a useful tactic sometimes. Yeah, Like I know,

633
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 1: I know people who've done union campaigns where like things

634
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 1: have turned around when they like showed up to like

635
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:35,759
Speaker 1: some NGEO person's fund raiser and they're like, hey, you

636
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 1: guys aren't paying us, and they're like everyone was like,

637
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: oh my god, But you know, what what what what?

638
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,319
Speaker 1: What are we? What are we actually doing here? And

639
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:47,879
Speaker 1: what what? What? What? What? What I'm specifically talking about

640
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 1: is powermapping in the context of direct action and in

641
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 1: the context a sort of offensive direct action. And when

642
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,279
Speaker 1: when you're thinking about power mapping here, there's two kinds

643
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 1: of mappings that are useful. One is physical mapping, and

644
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 1: this is something that people don't do enough. I don't

645
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 1: know why they don't do this more. But first of

646
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 1: one of one of the things that made the Hong

647
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 1: Kong protest work is that Hong Kong had really really

648
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:15,280
Speaker 1: detailed maps right they were you know, they had apps

649
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,359
Speaker 1: for this that were very very detailed maps of Hong

650
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 1: Kong City streets. They would map where the police were,

651
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 1: they would map where the police were moving to, they

652
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:28,839
Speaker 1: would map where protesters were. And you know, obviously there

653
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,439
Speaker 1: are sort of security and tactical considerations to this, but

654
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 1: if we know the terrain better than the police do,

655
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 1: we can do a lot of things. This is this

656
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 1: is something that people are successfully employing in the city

657
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 1: of Atlanta, yep, yep. And anyway, and this this, this,

658
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 1: this is the thing where we have we actually do

659
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,839
Speaker 1: have an a legitimate advantage in in large cities, which

660
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 1: is that like the cops who are in large cities

661
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 1: are not from like those those cities, right, you know,

662
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 1: And and I think I think we squander this advantage

663
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 1: a lot by just like in fucking Chicago, there's this

664
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 1: one plaza right like pretty close to Trump Tower where

665
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 1: every single protest starts. And that's like it's in the

666
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 1: middle of fucking downtown, so I guess people sort of

667
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,480
Speaker 1: know the way around there, but like, I fuck, nobody,

668
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 1: like nobody lives there who doesn't make like fucking seven

669
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars a year, right, Like you're you're you're

670
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 1: kind of squandering whatever tactical advantage you haven't. Also, you know,

671
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 1: and and another sort of another reason to do mapping

672
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 1: and stuff is is so you know, you can you

673
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 1: can plan things out ahead of time. Right, you can

674
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 1: plan out where your lines of retreat are. You can

675
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 1: figure out where choke points are so you don't get kettled,

676
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,359
Speaker 1: a thing that like I swear to God, no one

677
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 1: who arranges the protest in the US fucking ever does,

678
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 1: Like I mean, I know some people do it, but

679
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:49,360
Speaker 1: like Jesus Christ, you can you can figure out on

680
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:51,879
Speaker 1: a map where you're gonna get kettled, Like you can

681
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,839
Speaker 1: do this, yeah, and you know, and you you can

682
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 1: do other things too with maps, right, you can you

683
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,360
Speaker 1: can figure out where the locations are of infrastructure that

684
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 1: is particularly vulnerable. You can figure out what roads will

685
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:06,800
Speaker 1: will cause the maximum a matter of sort of economic

686
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 1: damage if you shut them down. You can figure you know,

687
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 1: you can figure out things like can you learn the

688
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 1: police into places where they can't use their numbers very well? Right?

689
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:16,359
Speaker 1: Can you spread them out over one hundred different areas

690
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 1: and neutralize their effectiveness? And this is a kind of

691
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:20,719
Speaker 1: These are the kind of terms that we need to

692
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,320
Speaker 1: be thinking about in terms and when when we're physically

693
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 1: mapping and physically trying to understand an area, which is

694
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 1: that we need to be thinking in very direct, tactical terms.

695
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 1: We need to figure out what kind of places you know?

696
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: And this also this also works defensively, right, we need

697
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 1: to be figuring out you know, okay, so we have

698
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 1: a drag show that's under attack, right, we need we

699
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:41,439
Speaker 1: need to figure out what kinds of places if people

700
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 1: are attacking, we need to figure out how we can

701
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 1: defend them. And we need to be thinking again not

702
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 1: not just like showing up to a place and being like, okay,

703
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 1: we're hearing these people across the street right like before

704
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:54,879
Speaker 1: that happens and be like before a protest stars, before

705
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:58,359
Speaker 1: an actually starts. There needs to be like work put

706
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 1: in to make sure that we that the actions that

707
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 1: we're doing are effective, are as effective as possible. So

708
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 1: that that's that Yeah, that that that that that that's

709
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 1: that's one part of this kind of mapping stuff. You know,

710
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 1: if if if you if you want more sort of

711
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 1: inspiration for this stuff, there's a bunch of oh my god,

712
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:18,879
Speaker 1: I'm not forgetting the name of every book, probably should

713
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 1: have actually written the books in here, but they're they're

714
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 1: some of the some of the Italian Autonomous will talk

715
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 1: about this stuff, and they have all of these like

716
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 1: really wild sort of tactical stuff about like things you

717
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:29,759
Speaker 1: could do in a city, like you can mess up

718
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 1: stop lights, you can like I don't know, like they

719
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:34,759
Speaker 1: they they they did a lot of stuff and like

720
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 1: moving signs around there. There's a lot of very weird

721
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 1: things in a city that you can do that we

722
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 1: don't think about because we've limited our tactical arsenal to

723
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 1: like people show up at a place and yell yes,

724
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 1: stand stand outside of a building and yell at a

725
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:54,359
Speaker 1: building end of protests. Yeah, and that that doesn't work.

726
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 1: Like we need to have tactics that are sort of

727
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 1: like that are beyond that. I guess, I guess part

728
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:02,239
Speaker 1: of the reason that I'm I'm starting here is that

729
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,919
Speaker 1: I want people to like literally go back very much

730
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 1: to square one of thinking about what our response needs

731
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:13,719
Speaker 1: to be before we start moving, because you know, like,

732
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 1: and I'm not this this is not a sort of

733
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 1: criticism of the people who've been doing dract defense, Like

734
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:21,400
Speaker 1: they've been doing a great job, right, but our standard

735
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:25,360
Speaker 1: protest arsenal is not enough. It has not been working,

736
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 1: and we need to reevaluate what we're doing. It needs

737
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:31,320
Speaker 1: to expand, and we need to see a better understanding

738
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 1: of what diversity of tactics means. I also think that

739
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 1: on this particular issue, until fairly recently, our primary threat

740
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:44,719
Speaker 1: vector was non state actors threatening physical violence, and so

741
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 1: the community defense model is actually a very effective response

742
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:51,760
Speaker 1: to that threat and has been incredibly effective on numerous times.

743
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:55,359
Speaker 1: Now that we are looking at the threat coming from

744
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 1: the state in terms of legislative at legislative action and

745
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:03,840
Speaker 1: all that stuff, it does open up a lot more

746
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:08,360
Speaker 1: tactical possibility. Like what you're talking about, um, and that's cool,

747
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 1: and people should realize that. Yeah, No, I think you're right.

748
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 1: We should go back and look from the ground up

749
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:20,799
Speaker 1: and like come to new conclusions, new ideas. And I

750
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 1: think I think the the the other thing of going

751
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 1: back to sort of like basics rights, going going back

752
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:31,240
Speaker 1: to the kinds of going going going back to changing

753
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 1: how we think about the world around us so that

754
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:37,399
Speaker 1: we can actually so that we can more effectively take

755
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 1: action in the other kind of thing that we need

756
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 1: to do is social mapping. It's figuring out the resources

757
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 1: that we have the resources that they have, where they are,

758
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 1: how they function. And this is something that Margaret, you've

759
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,400
Speaker 1: you've talked about in your in your threat about this,

760
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 1: which is very good. Yeah, but one of the things

761
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 1: that we need to figure out very quickly is what

762
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 1: skills do we have and what resources do we have?

763
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 1: And you know this this expands into a lot of

764
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 1: into a lot of different sort of fields, right, Um,

765
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 1: you know there's some of this is sort of territorial, right,

766
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 1: Like it's about thinking about like what kinds like what's

767
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,840
Speaker 1: physically what spaces are safe for us and which ones aren't,

768
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,440
Speaker 1: and how can we sort of leverage the spaces that

769
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 1: we have that are safe and you know, maneuver in

770
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 1: the ones that are How is this changing? There's also

771
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 1: something that I I want to sort of think about here,

772
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 1: which is this old this is old tradition. Do you do?

773
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 1: You do you know what workers inquiry is? I don't know? Okay,

774
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 1: So this is this is a very old Marxist tradition. Um,

775
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 1: it means a lot of different things to a lot

776
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:49,959
Speaker 1: of different people. Like Marx was attempting, So the origin

777
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 1: of this is Marx was trying to like send out

778
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 1: surveys to like workers to figure out what their conditions were,

779
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 1: and people over time took this into more interesting directions

780
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 1: of you know, but it turns into a kind of

781
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:05,840
Speaker 1: like like a worker's ethnography of you know, workers sitting

782
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 1: down and writing or doing interviews about just literally like

783
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:12,319
Speaker 1: what what their work day is, like, what the sort

784
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 1: of like labor processes they're involved in are, How does

785
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:17,680
Speaker 1: how does that work? Like? Who? Like, how do their

786
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 1: bosses work? How how are they being managed? How are

787
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 1: they resisting them? And you know, and you you there

788
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 1: there are other things you can sort of use this

789
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,240
Speaker 1: for that are very useful to us, which is, for example,

790
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 1: figuring out things like what does the what does your

791
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:35,360
Speaker 1: local economy depend on? What are the sort of important

792
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:39,319
Speaker 1: logistics lines in that local economy, you know, who is

793
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 1: physically doing the labor that the economy depends on, who

794
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 1: is doing the care labor, because that's another side of

795
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 1: this that gets sort of brushed over a lot. But

796
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:51,320
Speaker 1: for example, this this this is a large part of

797
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 1: why teachers are enormously powerful, because teachers are doing a

798
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 1: shit ton of care labor that is is necessary for

799
00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:00,919
Speaker 1: the necessary for the entire economy to function. But isn't

800
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:02,920
Speaker 1: really seen that way, right, and you know, and and

801
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 1: you you you can ask other questions like you know

802
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,799
Speaker 1: what what what like literally, what are the physical conditions

803
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 1: under which you and the people around you are working?

804
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:16,920
Speaker 1: A lot of this stuff's come to you, like person

805
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 1: who works a job, right, Um, there there is an

806
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:23,120
Speaker 1: advantage that we have as people who do this stuff,

807
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 1: which is that we we will understand the terrain of

808
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 1: our own workplace is better than the people who are

809
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 1: sitting at the at the top of the power structure,

810
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 1: because we're on the bottom of it, right the people

811
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 1: who are above us and and and this This is

812
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:36,719
Speaker 1: another thing that that's important about this kind of transphobia

813
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:40,480
Speaker 1: is that it's it's very much an elite thing. This

814
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 1: is I think especially noticeable in the UK, where like

815
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 1: you can literally track who is going to be a

816
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 1: turf by like what kind of like elite schools they're

817
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,880
Speaker 1: going to. But but like literally like if someone goes

818
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 1: to eat, like you know, it's like who goes to

819
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 1: eaton right, Like this is this is the thing. It

820
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 1: tracks who the ruling classes and who and who is

821
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 1: a turf and who's not going to be a terf?

822
00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 1: Right and then, but this is this is also true

823
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 1: in the US, where, like I mean again, if you

824
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 1: look at the media people who are pushing this, it's

825
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 1: a bunch of people sitting on like an unbelievable amount

826
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 1: of trust fund money and getting a bunch of sort

827
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 1: of writing billionaire money. Yes, my experience has been that

828
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:16,720
Speaker 1: since Trump's election, the random folks around me have become

829
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 1: substantially less favorable towards me. And I think antitrans stuff

830
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 1: is is popular across class, but I don't know, I

831
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:27,839
Speaker 1: think that's I think that's true, but I don't think

832
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 1: it matters that much because like, like the the the

833
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 1: ordinary person in your neighborhood who has become transphobic isn't

834
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 1: the person who has the capacity to get these laws passed. Okay,

835
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 1: that's fair. And the things that they know are not

836
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 1: the things that the actual people running these campaigns know. Yeah, okay.

837
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:47,799
Speaker 1: And and that that that that I think is what

838
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:52,839
Speaker 1: is sort of important about this, is that like legislatures, right,

839
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:56,319
Speaker 1: or like you know, the people who are funding who

840
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 1: are funding these campaigns, the people who donate to these

841
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:02,759
Speaker 1: who donate literally literally donate to sort of political campaigns, right,

842
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 1: These people do not understand what our jobs are. They

843
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:09,360
Speaker 1: don't understand what we do, they don't understand how the

844
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 1: economy works very well. What the version of reality that

845
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 1: they can see is a sort of bureaucratic image of

846
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 1: it produced by their subordinates. And you know that there's

847
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 1: a real problem with that, which is that a lot

848
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 1: of the time, right, the more powerful person is, the

849
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:28,279
Speaker 1: more likely it is that the version of reality that

850
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:30,279
Speaker 1: they're getting is the version of reality that is just

851
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 1: being told to them by the people by the people

852
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:37,480
Speaker 1: below them. And you know, and this this means, like

853
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 1: the more powerful the people we're dealing with, the less

854
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 1: capacity they actually have to understand. Is this is true

855
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:46,240
Speaker 1: even with for organizations to have like an enormous amount

856
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:48,960
Speaker 1: of raw intelligence that you know, they're sort of spy

857
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 1: and surveillance networks have assembled, right, they're you know, they

858
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 1: have all this information, but they don't understand and they're

859
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:58,440
Speaker 1: sort of buried in trying to like trying and often

860
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 1: failing to sort through all of the information that they have. Yeah,

861
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 1: and they try and map it to their worldview. It's

862
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 1: how you always end up with like we found the

863
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 1: like I have a friend who is investigated as the

864
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:12,320
Speaker 1: leader of international anarchism, and it took them a really

865
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 1: really long time before they were like, I don't think

866
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 1: that's a thing. Yeah, well, it's like they don't they

867
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 1: don't understand how our networks work very well because yeaheah,

868
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:24,800
Speaker 1: they have stuff like that. But but this is also true,

869
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:29,719
Speaker 1: especially like on the level of the workplace, right, Um,

870
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 1: there is a bunch of stuff that we know that

871
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:35,759
Speaker 1: cannot be replicated by the people on the top of

872
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 1: the org chart. And a lot of that stuff has

873
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:40,920
Speaker 1: to do with we know how to make things stop

874
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 1: working in ways that they don't, okay, and and that

875
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:47,760
Speaker 1: that is that that that is very sort of useful

876
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 1: information to have because if you know how something works,

877
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 1: you can make it stop working. And this is this

878
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:57,479
Speaker 1: is the sort of you know, this is a lot

879
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 1: of what the Marxist tradition sort of was, right. It

880
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:02,479
Speaker 1: was an attempt to understand like what workers are doing.

881
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:05,320
Speaker 1: The distinction I would make is they were trying to

882
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:07,160
Speaker 1: figure out what workers are doing because they were trying

883
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:09,920
Speaker 1: to figure out how capitalism works. And I don't care

884
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 1: about that enormously like that that's that's that's not a

885
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 1: thing that actually sort of like I don't know. Whatever

886
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:20,320
Speaker 1: I do, I don't I don't care about whatever esoteric

887
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:23,400
Speaker 1: value debates they were having. The decision I would make

888
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:25,640
Speaker 1: here is that, you know, the Marxist version of this

889
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 1: has a tendency to collapse and develop production into just

890
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 1: like incredibly bitter and minute debates about Marxism. We are

891
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:33,600
Speaker 1: not trying to do that. The thing we're trying to

892
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 1: do with our version of this is stop agendicide. Right.

893
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 1: Our our version of inquiry means attack and when when? When?

894
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,439
Speaker 1: When I say when? When I'm talking about this kind

895
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 1: of stuff, right, I'm talking about like you and finding

896
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:50,360
Speaker 1: the other people in your workplace who are supportive of

897
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 1: this stuff. And you know, I mean literally just on

898
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 1: like a very very basic level. And this is something

899
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:56,440
Speaker 1: that you get in union organizing, right, It's like just

900
00:47:56,480 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 1: figuring out what the fuck they do because like manage,

901
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:02,480
Speaker 1: it doesn't know what you do, right, Like I I

902
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 1: I have I have worked in a lot of of

903
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 1: of places. I have talked to managers a lot. They

904
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:10,759
Speaker 1: have no fucking idea what what anyone is actually doing.

905
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 1: And if if you if you can build up and

906
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:15,359
Speaker 1: this is this is you know, this is all going,

907
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:19,279
Speaker 1: This is all kind of abstract. But if if you

908
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 1: can figure out how your workplace works, and you can

909
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 1: figure out how the workplaces of the people around you work,

910
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:30,759
Speaker 1: and how how the workplace is that like actually genuinely

911
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:33,520
Speaker 1: matter to the people who are doing this stuff, you

912
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:37,560
Speaker 1: suddenly have. You suddenly have leverage that you normally that

913
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:42,080
Speaker 1: you know, a sort of like traditional like protest thing doesn't.

914
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:47,880
Speaker 1: And this means, for better or for worse, trying to

915
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 1: get unions involved. Um, there are upsides and downsides here.

916
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:54,319
Speaker 1: The downside is that there just aren't the many unions

917
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:57,200
Speaker 1: and there aren't the many people in unions as I

918
00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 1: just have like a middling faith in them. Yeah, working

919
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 1: on it. I mean yeah, I mean some of them,

920
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 1: I'm sure good and and I want to challenge all

921
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 1: of them too, and if they do, I will eat

922
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 1: my shoe whatever the saying is. Um, so yeah, I

923
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 1: mean it's like they're not going to do unless they're

924
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 1: forced to, right, Well, I depending on the I think

925
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:23,640
Speaker 1: some unions do. Now I'm like suddenly one eighteen, I mean,

926
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:27,359
Speaker 1: like talk on unions like that whatever anyway continues, So okay,

927
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 1: So the thing part of the the other reason that

928
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:33,359
Speaker 1: that I'm focusing specifically on unions, and I'm specifically I'm

929
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 1: focusing a lot and workplace organizing stuff. Is that Okay?

930
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:39,920
Speaker 1: One of the inherent problems of trans organizing is that

931
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:42,439
Speaker 1: trans people are not a large enough minority to enter

932
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:46,280
Speaker 1: the most sort of like cynical, like numerically determinist accounts

933
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:51,640
Speaker 1: of who matters enough to support right, like not not yet,

934
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 1: not right, But as as if right now we're like

935
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:57,920
Speaker 1: maybe two percent of the population now will change it

936
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:01,440
Speaker 1: is it is grown. If the Zoober numbers continue, we're

937
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:04,319
Speaker 1: gonna be We're gonna be quite quite the problem. I

938
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:07,399
Speaker 1: remember marching with my my first boyfriend, and this this

939
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 1: bashback march where we're chanting one in ten is not enough. Yeah,

940
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 1: And it's just funny because it's like there's more of

941
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 1: us now. Yeah. Yeah, And this is trans are really

942
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:21,280
Speaker 1: good at recruiting at LGBT because and literally, you cannot

943
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 1: think I'm cute and be heterosexual. There's no way of

944
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:28,759
Speaker 1: making that happen. True. No, this is like legit legitimately.

945
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:30,279
Speaker 1: One of the reasons that I figured out that I

946
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:33,240
Speaker 1: wasn't like a sistet straight dude was I was dating

947
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 1: an un binary person I was like, shit, Okay, it's um.

948
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:45,680
Speaker 1: There are places where trans people are like enormously overrepresented,

949
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 1: right and and and there are places where we exist

950
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 1: in numbers enough that we actually statistically matter. And unions

951
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:55,399
Speaker 1: are one of those places because the people to people

952
00:50:55,400 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 1: who are organizing unions, like trans people are so unbelieved,

953
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 1: pably fucking overrepresented in all of that stuff. And this

954
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:05,959
Speaker 1: is this is as much true of I mean, okay,

955
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:10,359
Speaker 1: so this this is true really, especially of any kind

956
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:12,719
Speaker 1: of sort of new unionism, like particularly things like grad

957
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:15,239
Speaker 1: student unions. Right, but it's also true of like like

958
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:17,360
Speaker 1: all all of the fucking service sector unions that are

959
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:19,720
Speaker 1: getting organized, and this has been true for like twenty years.

960
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:22,160
Speaker 1: All of the people organizing that, whether they realize it

961
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:26,279
Speaker 1: or not, are trans. And you know, but this this

962
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:28,920
Speaker 1: means that we actually have leverage there, right, because this

963
00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:31,839
Speaker 1: is this is a part of the economy where if

964
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:35,399
Speaker 1: we stop doing our job, shit will actually fall apart, right,

965
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 1: Like you know, actual sort of large scale union campaigns

966
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:43,439
Speaker 1: like cannot work without us. And that means that we

967
00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:46,640
Speaker 1: actually we have the ability to pressure them into doing

968
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:50,560
Speaker 1: shit in a way that's not necessarily true. And I'm

969
00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:53,839
Speaker 1: talking here, like specifically about like you the listener who

970
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:58,920
Speaker 1: is trans, which is like statistically statistically like you the

971
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:02,920
Speaker 1: listener is not trans. If you are, congratulations, Um, if

972
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:06,880
Speaker 1: you're not, I also suspect they are slightly overrepresented that

973
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:11,920
Speaker 1: definitely still probably not a majority. Well, I guess I like,

974
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:14,120
Speaker 1: I also want to say that, like, um, I mean,

975
00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:17,120
Speaker 1: it's funny because the way to define SIS allyship is

976
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:20,400
Speaker 1: literally just if you're willing to car yourself CIS, you know,

977
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:23,360
Speaker 1: because it's like not actually a slur, it's just a description.

978
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 1: It's just a you know, like the not trans word, right,

979
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:31,479
Speaker 1: and it's not bad at all. Yeah, and now that

980
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:34,680
Speaker 1: that's a battleground word, it's like pronouns and profile or whatever.

981
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:38,520
Speaker 1: You know, It's like it's actually fairly easy to make

982
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:41,880
Speaker 1: it clear where you stand on this kind of issue. Um,

983
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:45,399
Speaker 1: And I I will say, I mean, obviously trans people

984
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 1: do a lot of this organizing, but I think that

985
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:49,920
Speaker 1: we have a lot, an awful lot of SIS people

986
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:52,680
Speaker 1: with us, And so you, the CIS listener, we also

987
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:55,319
Speaker 1: fucking love and respect you because if you've made it

988
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 1: into an hour of us talking about how much this matters,

989
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:00,279
Speaker 1: it clearly matters to you too. You know, this is

990
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 1: probably our like three or whatever the fuck and both

991
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:05,760
Speaker 1: episodes and soon you won't be allowed to wear pants

992
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:09,359
Speaker 1: if you're a fab So you know this is gonna

993
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:13,719
Speaker 1: hit everyone. Yeah. Yeah, and I think you know all

994
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:16,080
Speaker 1: of the stuff that I've been saying right about, you know,

995
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:18,799
Speaker 1: And like another part of this also is is literally

996
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:21,560
Speaker 1: just like a thing that you can do that is

997
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:23,719
Speaker 1: organizing that will help in this stuff is literally just

998
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 1: talking to your friends, yeah, and being like, hey, here's

999
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:31,520
Speaker 1: my eight friends or whatever, here are things. How do

1000
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:33,719
Speaker 1: you feel about this? You know, and then and then

1001
00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 1: and then try and then you know, using using this

1002
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:39,239
Speaker 1: kind of stuff, using this kind of mapping stuff, and

1003
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:43,400
Speaker 1: you know, using using what you can learn about how

1004
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:46,560
Speaker 1: you know this this this this, this part of it

1005
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:49,799
Speaker 1: has been kind of abstract, but I think intentionally so

1006
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:52,799
Speaker 1: it's like we we we are, we are in a

1007
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:57,839
Speaker 1: place where we need to very rapidly build up capacity

1008
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:00,200
Speaker 1: for a kind of movements that can actually do things.

1009
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:02,880
Speaker 1: And I think this is this this is sort of

1010
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:08,960
Speaker 1: like the planning phase for that is Yeah, but you know,

1011
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:10,759
Speaker 1: like the these are things that are going down to

1012
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:12,920
Speaker 1: be created very quickly. These we're we're going to have

1013
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:16,600
Speaker 1: to very quickly figure out, you know what what what

1014
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:19,440
Speaker 1: levers can be like pushed. Right. And one of the

1015
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:24,440
Speaker 1: things about like the first bathroom bill in North Carolina, right,

1016
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:28,520
Speaker 1: it didn't get repealed, but it got like amended to

1017
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 1: be slightly less bad. Yeah, And it got amenaged to

1018
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:34,000
Speaker 1: because to be slightly less bad because the state it

1019
00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 1: very quickly ran into trouble with a bunch of corporations

1020
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:38,840
Speaker 1: who were like, you know, because an initial push that

1021
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:40,839
Speaker 1: they were like, We're like, Okay, we're gonna we're gonna

1022
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:42,680
Speaker 1: pull out of events in this state. We're gonna pull

1023
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:45,319
Speaker 1: out of like backing your giant Like we're gonna pull

1024
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:47,359
Speaker 1: out of having our giant like fucking sports tournaments here.

1025
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 1: We're gonna pull out of like advertising for like retails

1026
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:52,799
Speaker 1: off and that. And that got them to sort of

1027
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:56,239
Speaker 1: like run away very very quickly, right, And that's been

1028
00:54:56,280 --> 00:54:58,320
Speaker 1: the one big thing they've been actually scared of. And

1029
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:00,320
Speaker 1: I think this is part of why they've been pushing

1030
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:03,160
Speaker 1: this sort of like quote corporation like anti Disney stuff

1031
00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:07,640
Speaker 1: so hard. Is that like the kind of backlash that

1032
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:10,600
Speaker 1: can very quickly get these people to flip is the

1033
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 1: kind of backlash that starts actually hurting. If these kinds

1034
00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:16,920
Speaker 1: of bills start hurting their bottom line, these a lot

1035
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:19,120
Speaker 1: of these people will flip because a lot of a

1036
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:21,080
Speaker 1: lot of even the legislators who are voting for this

1037
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:24,400
Speaker 1: art as hardline as the sort of like daily wire people,

1038
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 1: and if their campaign funders are like, hey, you gotta

1039
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:30,839
Speaker 1: fucking turn this around so the economy can go back

1040
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:44,480
Speaker 1: to normal, like they they, they will flip on this stuff. Okay,

1041
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:46,359
Speaker 1: That's all I was talking about is about things that

1042
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:49,160
Speaker 1: you can do to begin to mount pressure campaigns and

1043
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:51,560
Speaker 1: mountain direct actions. I also wanted to talk about sort

1044
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:55,400
Speaker 1: of like just survival network stuff because that also was

1045
00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:58,480
Speaker 1: going to be a part of this. And yeah, Margaret,

1046
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:00,719
Speaker 1: you had a lot of very very good stuff in

1047
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:03,799
Speaker 1: a thread that you wrote about this. Yeah. I wrote

1048
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:07,360
Speaker 1: a threat a week or so ago about all this

1049
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:10,279
Speaker 1: stuff as I woke up and doom squirrelled for a while,

1050
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:12,359
Speaker 1: and you know, and I was just thinking a lot

1051
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:14,799
Speaker 1: back on the organizing that I know people are doing

1052
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 1: and stuff like that and trying to put things together,

1053
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:19,239
Speaker 1: and so some of it's just kind of like tips, right,

1054
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:27,080
Speaker 1: And I want to say like again, well again to

1055
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:29,719
Speaker 1: the threat not to something I've said here. I think

1056
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:32,120
Speaker 1: that we need to focus on what unites us and

1057
00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:33,920
Speaker 1: not what divides us. Right now, I think that this

1058
00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:42,040
Speaker 1: is not a time for public facing internal conflict. It

1059
00:56:42,160 --> 00:56:48,680
Speaker 1: is not a time for interpersonal conflict to be aired publicly.

1060
00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:52,359
Speaker 1: Not to say that interpersonal conflict doesn't matter, it doesn't matter.

1061
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:55,320
Speaker 1: We need to you know, I believe mediation is actually

1062
00:56:55,320 --> 00:56:58,200
Speaker 1: one of the most important skills. Actually, frankly, literally, if

1063
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:00,239
Speaker 1: you're listening and you have any mediation skills, I think

1064
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:02,000
Speaker 1: it is the thing that the revolution needs more than

1065
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:08,040
Speaker 1: anything else. Off the top of my head, but overall, basically,

1066
00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:10,759
Speaker 1: there's something that mc soul said, I don't know if

1067
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:12,359
Speaker 1: his own podcast might have been Twitter or a a long

1068
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:14,359
Speaker 1: time ago, and it's really stuck in my head, which

1069
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:16,240
Speaker 1: is that we need to focus on we need to

1070
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:19,200
Speaker 1: de escalate all conflict that isn't with the enemy, Which

1071
00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:21,680
Speaker 1: isn't to say that the conflict doesn't happen, is that

1072
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:23,640
Speaker 1: we need to look how to de escalate it and

1073
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:27,680
Speaker 1: bring it down in pressure, except when it's with the enemy,

1074
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:30,320
Speaker 1: like with someone who's trying to murder all the trans people,

1075
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:33,000
Speaker 1: or someone who's like a white nationalist or whatever right.

1076
00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:35,720
Speaker 1: We are not looking to de escalate that conflict. We

1077
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:38,680
Speaker 1: are probably looking to escalate that conflict. We are looking

1078
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:40,320
Speaker 1: to make it very clear the way in which we

1079
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:44,000
Speaker 1: are not that person. But and I'm as guilty this

1080
00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:46,440
Speaker 1: as anyone else. I have a lot of pet peeves

1081
00:57:46,440 --> 00:57:51,360
Speaker 1: that people who listen to my show are very aware of. Also,

1082
00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:54,040
Speaker 1: this fight will happen on multiple fronts, using multiple tactics.

1083
00:57:54,080 --> 00:57:56,360
Speaker 1: There's this magical phrase diversity of tactics, and we have

1084
00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:59,000
Speaker 1: to mean it. And diversity of tactics usually means like

1085
00:57:59,080 --> 00:58:01,480
Speaker 1: kind of like, no, it's just support my tactic. Like

1086
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:03,919
Speaker 1: especially if you're like tactic is like riots or something.

1087
00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:06,080
Speaker 1: You know, you often say diversity of tactics, and what

1088
00:58:06,080 --> 00:58:07,720
Speaker 1: you really mean is like my shit rules and your

1089
00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:10,240
Speaker 1: shit sucks. We actually have to straight up mean it.

1090
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:12,680
Speaker 1: We need to support the people who are focused in

1091
00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:15,640
Speaker 1: legislative action. Even though it's not where we are strong,

1092
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:18,600
Speaker 1: it is a place that needs to be shored up.

1093
00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:20,959
Speaker 1: We need to focus. We need to support the people

1094
00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:24,240
Speaker 1: who focus on community defense. We need to focus. We

1095
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:26,479
Speaker 1: need to support the people who are doing illegal things.

1096
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:28,760
Speaker 1: We need to support the people who are doing organizing

1097
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:30,760
Speaker 1: in all kinds of different ways, and if we build

1098
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:35,240
Speaker 1: organizations that accept diversity of tactics and don't expect to

1099
00:58:35,240 --> 00:58:38,880
Speaker 1: have a sort of hegemony over the movement, we can

1100
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:42,120
Speaker 1: create a very strong movement. Most of my personal infighting

1101
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:43,600
Speaker 1: is with people who do want to have a geminy

1102
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:46,720
Speaker 1: over a movement, and so you get I fall into

1103
00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:50,880
Speaker 1: this like trap where I'm like, how do we fucking anyway? Whatever? Okay,

1104
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:53,760
Speaker 1: other things that people can do if you are not

1105
00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:56,320
Speaker 1: visibility LGBT and you feel like it is safe to

1106
00:58:56,320 --> 00:58:58,000
Speaker 1: do so, or you feel like it is dangerous to

1107
00:58:58,040 --> 00:58:59,480
Speaker 1: do so, and you're willing to be a little bit

1108
00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:02,800
Speaker 1: fucking danger because we are in complicated fucking times, be

1109
00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:07,320
Speaker 1: publicly clear that you support lg LGTP, whatever us and

1110
00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:09,920
Speaker 1: like the day that I wrote the clear yeah, support

1111
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:11,880
Speaker 1: the queers, Like the day that I wrote this. I

1112
00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:14,200
Speaker 1: live in you know, I live in West Virginia. I

1113
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:16,760
Speaker 1: go to Lows and you know, I'm having a bad day.

1114
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:19,880
Speaker 1: I'm like fuck, I'm like, you know, at what point

1115
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:21,160
Speaker 1: is it going to be a crime for me to

1116
00:59:21,160 --> 00:59:24,960
Speaker 1: go to Lows? Right? And the like guy, just the

1117
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:28,760
Speaker 1: fucking metal head guy who seemed kind of like super

1118
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:33,200
Speaker 1: masculine metal guy tattoos, and he had his fucking like

1119
00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:37,360
Speaker 1: trans ally support pin on. And if we were in

1120
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:39,720
Speaker 1: like a big major city, it might have almost seemed

1121
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:43,240
Speaker 1: like cringey because it said like ally or whatever on it, right,

1122
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:48,040
Speaker 1: And I'm fucking overworrying about what's cringe e. I'm like, no,

1123
00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:50,880
Speaker 1: thank you. I I went up and I thanked him

1124
00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:55,440
Speaker 1: right because it like fucking helped my day. And that

1125
00:59:55,560 --> 00:59:58,000
Speaker 1: kind of shit is going to matter because it is

1126
00:59:58,040 --> 01:00:02,560
Speaker 1: now actually a fairly dangerous in some places to be

1127
01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:06,560
Speaker 1: visibly in support of us. And I absolutely appreciate the

1128
01:00:06,560 --> 01:00:13,560
Speaker 1: people who are doing it. And another thing that we

1129
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:14,920
Speaker 1: need to support this is the kind of thing that

1130
01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:16,720
Speaker 1: you've talked a little bit about, is that, Okay, we

1131
01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:19,280
Speaker 1: need to have support networks. We need to have networks

1132
01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:23,840
Speaker 1: that are protecting trans people, families that are leaving environments.

1133
01:00:23,840 --> 01:00:27,400
Speaker 1: There's so many families that want to leave these states

1134
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:30,520
Speaker 1: where their child is no longer safe, will be forced

1135
01:00:30,520 --> 01:00:33,280
Speaker 1: to detransition, will not be allowed to transition. There are

1136
01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:36,400
Speaker 1: transparents in Florida who might be at risk of losing

1137
01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:38,240
Speaker 1: their children. All of these things, people are going to

1138
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:41,280
Speaker 1: want to move. We need to support people materially who

1139
01:00:41,280 --> 01:00:44,120
Speaker 1: are trying to move, and there will be organizations that

1140
01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:46,040
Speaker 1: are doing this. If they don't exist yet, you can

1141
01:00:46,120 --> 01:00:48,440
Speaker 1: start them. And if you wait for them to start,

1142
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:51,080
Speaker 1: that's also sometimes okay. If you're played is full, you

1143
01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:54,439
Speaker 1: can support those organizations in a lot of different ways.

1144
01:00:55,440 --> 01:00:58,200
Speaker 1: We can also support and not shame people who choose

1145
01:00:58,240 --> 01:00:59,800
Speaker 1: to live in Red States as though, Like, as a

1146
01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:02,560
Speaker 1: state transperson, I think about this a lot about like

1147
01:01:02,560 --> 01:01:06,160
Speaker 1: because like I'm not planning on moving right. You know,

1148
01:01:06,200 --> 01:01:10,360
Speaker 1: it helps that I'm an adult. I'm like settled whatever,

1149
01:01:10,680 --> 01:01:14,120
Speaker 1: Like my mental health is strong, you know, but I'm

1150
01:01:14,120 --> 01:01:17,040
Speaker 1: not planning on going anywhere. And that's why we can't

1151
01:01:17,120 --> 01:01:21,760
Speaker 1: give up these spaces, right. I think that one of

1152
01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:24,080
Speaker 1: the things I kind of mentioned earlier but is that,

1153
01:01:24,120 --> 01:01:27,120
Speaker 1: like we are not in normal times. We need to

1154
01:01:27,120 --> 01:01:29,800
Speaker 1: take this seriously. We also need to not assume that

1155
01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:32,560
Speaker 1: all this is a foregone conclusion. We need to not

1156
01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:36,600
Speaker 1: assume that this will go down like Nazi Germany. However,

1157
01:01:37,160 --> 01:01:39,880
Speaker 1: we need to be aware that it might, and we

1158
01:01:39,920 --> 01:01:43,040
Speaker 1: need everyone This is not a trans people thing, This

1159
01:01:43,120 --> 01:01:46,600
Speaker 1: isn't everyone thing. We need to think about what that

1160
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:50,480
Speaker 1: actually means. You know, there's that cliche that is true

1161
01:01:50,560 --> 01:01:51,880
Speaker 1: right now. That is like, if you want to know

1162
01:01:51,920 --> 01:01:54,560
Speaker 1: what you have been doing in Germany in nineteen thirty three,

1163
01:01:54,760 --> 01:01:58,480
Speaker 1: it's what you're doing right now. And like that's true.

1164
01:01:58,640 --> 01:02:01,480
Speaker 1: This is a time for to be the kind of

1165
01:02:01,560 --> 01:02:04,600
Speaker 1: person that we want to be. We are in dangerous

1166
01:02:04,640 --> 01:02:07,880
Speaker 1: and complicated times, and it is times that we need

1167
01:02:07,880 --> 01:02:09,880
Speaker 1: to be brave, and we need to be brave for

1168
01:02:10,080 --> 01:02:14,520
Speaker 1: each other. Bravery is not the absence of fear. Bravery

1169
01:02:14,640 --> 01:02:18,520
Speaker 1: is doing things despite fear. Bravery is the presence of courage,

1170
01:02:18,600 --> 01:02:22,360
Speaker 1: not the lack of awareness that things are scary and bad. Yes,

1171
01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:26,920
Speaker 1: And that's kind of like my main thing is I

1172
01:02:26,960 --> 01:02:31,680
Speaker 1: want us to not panic, right, to not assume that

1173
01:02:31,720 --> 01:02:34,920
Speaker 1: we're going to lose, to realize that they are acting

1174
01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:37,880
Speaker 1: this way because they're on their back foot. This was

1175
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:43,000
Speaker 1: always going to happen in the fact that in a

1176
01:02:43,120 --> 01:02:46,280
Speaker 1: way we kind of started this fight by like existing

1177
01:02:46,360 --> 01:02:48,320
Speaker 1: and like coming out of the closet and shit. But

1178
01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:51,040
Speaker 1: we basically were like, no, we're allowed to be here,

1179
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:54,400
Speaker 1: and most people were like, yeah, okay, I guess that tracks.

1180
01:02:54,440 --> 01:02:56,240
Speaker 1: I guess you're allowed to be here. And then some

1181
01:02:56,280 --> 01:02:59,640
Speaker 1: small portion we're like these are demons from hell sent

1182
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:03,480
Speaker 1: to ripe tits off of the children I'd like to marry.

1183
01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:07,480
Speaker 1: The freaks like Matt Walsh are the ones who declared

1184
01:03:07,600 --> 01:03:12,920
Speaker 1: quote unquote war on trans people, right because we were

1185
01:03:13,720 --> 01:03:16,800
Speaker 1: coming for their way of life, not their way of

1186
01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:20,360
Speaker 1: life in terms of like heterosexual marriage, that gets to

1187
01:03:20,440 --> 01:03:27,160
Speaker 1: still exist, that's fine, like, but compulsory heterosexuality and compulsory

1188
01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:31,880
Speaker 1: sis sexuality is the thing that we are coming for.

1189
01:03:32,360 --> 01:03:35,160
Speaker 1: And their way of life is hegemony. Their way of

1190
01:03:35,160 --> 01:03:38,440
Speaker 1: life is being the only force of power. And so yeah,

1191
01:03:38,520 --> 01:03:42,080
Speaker 1: I guess the other stuff is that we just Okay,

1192
01:03:42,160 --> 01:03:44,000
Speaker 1: what would you do in Nazi Germany? That's what you're

1193
01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:46,160
Speaker 1: doing right now, and you should think about what skills

1194
01:03:46,160 --> 01:03:49,080
Speaker 1: you have and how they apply to different things. And

1195
01:03:49,120 --> 01:03:52,640
Speaker 1: then the kind of final point to a lot of

1196
01:03:52,640 --> 01:03:55,880
Speaker 1: this is as a specific issue and it's a pet

1197
01:03:55,880 --> 01:03:57,960
Speaker 1: issue of mind, and that could be completely wrong. I

1198
01:03:58,000 --> 01:03:59,960
Speaker 1: have a lot of bias about this, but I would

1199
01:04:00,640 --> 01:04:02,600
Speaker 1: fucking love it if liberals would shut the fuck up

1200
01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:06,960
Speaker 1: about guns. Right now. It is very hard for me

1201
01:04:07,040 --> 01:04:09,280
Speaker 1: to find a state that is not either in the

1202
01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:11,240
Speaker 1: process of trying to tell me that I can't wear

1203
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:14,000
Speaker 1: a dress, or to find a state that is trying

1204
01:04:14,040 --> 01:04:16,000
Speaker 1: to tell me that I can't carry the means to

1205
01:04:16,040 --> 01:04:19,160
Speaker 1: protect myself from the violent bigots who want to kill

1206
01:04:19,200 --> 01:04:22,480
Speaker 1: me because I wear a dress. It is incredibly hard

1207
01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:24,440
Speaker 1: to find states that are not pushing in one of

1208
01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:27,600
Speaker 1: those directions or another, and it is embarrassing. It is

1209
01:04:27,640 --> 01:04:32,000
Speaker 1: embarrassing that this, of all times, is the time that

1210
01:04:32,080 --> 01:04:35,640
Speaker 1: liberals are focusing so hard on gun issues, which is

1211
01:04:35,640 --> 01:04:39,400
Speaker 1: a culture war bullshit thing for them. They don't fucking care,

1212
01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:43,000
Speaker 1: They didn't fucking care about abortion. They just want your

1213
01:04:43,040 --> 01:04:52,280
Speaker 1: fucking votes. And we are probably entering a very bad

1214
01:04:52,280 --> 01:04:56,960
Speaker 1: and hard time. However, we can do it. We have

1215
01:04:57,040 --> 01:05:00,200
Speaker 1: done it in the past, and my reading of history

1216
01:05:00,200 --> 01:05:02,560
Speaker 1: it basically is this cycle I kind of don't quite

1217
01:05:02,560 --> 01:05:07,360
Speaker 1: believe in, like a forward progress. Everything gets better, things

1218
01:05:07,480 --> 01:05:14,919
Speaker 1: ebb and flow. And however, we will survive this, not

1219
01:05:14,960 --> 01:05:19,120
Speaker 1: necessarily all of us as individuals. Probably probably there won't

1220
01:05:19,160 --> 01:05:22,240
Speaker 1: be like large numbers of killings as a result of this,

1221
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:27,640
Speaker 1: but it is possible, right, But they it is impossible

1222
01:05:28,120 --> 01:05:34,360
Speaker 1: to stamp out homosexuality, It is impossible to stamp out transsexuality.

1223
01:05:34,920 --> 01:05:37,520
Speaker 1: We have always been here, we will always be here,

1224
01:05:39,760 --> 01:05:43,920
Speaker 1: and so yeah to to quote my final quote in

1225
01:05:43,920 --> 01:05:47,680
Speaker 1: that particular threat, I definitely went off threat. But we

1226
01:05:47,760 --> 01:05:49,800
Speaker 1: need to find each other. We need to stop fighting

1227
01:05:49,800 --> 01:05:52,800
Speaker 1: with each other about bullshit. We need to defend each other.

1228
01:05:52,920 --> 01:05:58,160
Speaker 1: We need to be brave. And then I will cite

1229
01:05:58,320 --> 01:06:01,760
Speaker 1: the anarchist's prayer, which is that I ask not to

1230
01:06:01,760 --> 01:06:05,280
Speaker 1: be safe from my enemies, but dangerous to them, because

1231
01:06:06,520 --> 01:06:08,920
Speaker 1: all right, this is what we're fucking doing, and like,

1232
01:06:10,520 --> 01:06:14,280
Speaker 1: we all want to be safe, but that's not something

1233
01:06:14,320 --> 01:06:17,640
Speaker 1: that we're guaranteed. What we are guaranteed is that we

1234
01:06:17,680 --> 01:06:20,840
Speaker 1: can choose how to handle the situation that we're in.

1235
01:06:21,640 --> 01:06:25,000
Speaker 1: And then almost done, almost done. You talked to earlier

1236
01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:26,840
Speaker 1: about what we owe the owe the dead. I really

1237
01:06:26,840 --> 01:06:28,520
Speaker 1: liked your way phrasing that. I really liked a lot

1238
01:06:28,560 --> 01:06:30,000
Speaker 1: of what you were talking about about all of that.

1239
01:06:32,920 --> 01:06:35,040
Speaker 1: And one thing that I think about we're talking about

1240
01:06:35,080 --> 01:06:37,960
Speaker 1: like the Catholic Church and shit, right, one thing that

1241
01:06:38,040 --> 01:06:40,480
Speaker 1: I owe the dead is I owe Sister Dominic, a

1242
01:06:40,520 --> 01:06:44,840
Speaker 1: Catholic nun, to not fucking go back into the closet

1243
01:06:45,600 --> 01:06:47,880
Speaker 1: because when my cousin came out as trans, this woman

1244
01:06:47,880 --> 01:06:50,640
Speaker 1: who is literally married to God. She died a couple

1245
01:06:50,640 --> 01:06:54,320
Speaker 1: of years ago maybe ten years ago now before I

1246
01:06:54,400 --> 01:06:57,320
Speaker 1: came out, but my cousin came out before me, because

1247
01:06:57,320 --> 01:07:00,000
Speaker 1: it's a contagion now because we were always fucking trans

1248
01:07:00,120 --> 01:07:04,120
Speaker 1: and she was completely supportive, completely and immediately in my like,

1249
01:07:05,120 --> 01:07:08,680
Speaker 1: you know, and just this is a woman who dedicated

1250
01:07:08,680 --> 01:07:15,680
Speaker 1: her entire life too well to God and Saul literally

1251
01:07:15,800 --> 01:07:19,240
Speaker 1: no problem, was the most immediately accepting person. Immediately said,

1252
01:07:19,280 --> 01:07:21,680
Speaker 1: you know, I bet she's always felt that way, and

1253
01:07:21,760 --> 01:07:26,280
Speaker 1: so I personally owe it to her to tell these

1254
01:07:26,320 --> 01:07:30,800
Speaker 1: Catholics to shut the fuck up, because fucking Jesus's wife says,

1255
01:07:30,840 --> 01:07:37,960
Speaker 1: it's fine. Fuck you, That's what I got. Thank you, Margaret. Yeah,

1256
01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:41,480
Speaker 1: that was fantastic. Where where can people find you and

1257
01:07:41,600 --> 01:07:45,720
Speaker 1: some of your other work across the across the web. Yeah.

1258
01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:48,680
Speaker 1: I just finished a four part series on Stonewall and

1259
01:07:48,840 --> 01:07:50,920
Speaker 1: the stuff that came before Stonewall, the riots that kind

1260
01:07:50,960 --> 01:07:53,640
Speaker 1: of brought us this movement, and how it was all

1261
01:07:53,760 --> 01:07:57,080
Speaker 1: different types of queers and even some hat people working

1262
01:07:57,120 --> 01:08:01,080
Speaker 1: together to bring us as far as we've got. And

1263
01:08:01,200 --> 01:08:03,240
Speaker 1: you can find that on my podcast Cool People who

1264
01:08:03,280 --> 01:08:06,360
Speaker 1: did cool stuff. It's with it could Happen here host

1265
01:08:06,520 --> 01:08:10,960
Speaker 1: Sharine as my guest and You can also find me

1266
01:08:11,000 --> 01:08:13,080
Speaker 1: talking about the end of the world on Live Like

1267
01:08:13,160 --> 01:08:15,720
Speaker 1: the World Is Dying as another podcast that I'm a

1268
01:08:15,760 --> 01:08:19,120
Speaker 1: co host of. And my most recent book is called

1269
01:08:19,280 --> 01:08:22,479
Speaker 1: Escape from Insel Island, and it is not non fiction.

1270
01:08:22,600 --> 01:08:24,960
Speaker 1: It is not something about how people should get better.

1271
01:08:25,000 --> 01:08:26,960
Speaker 1: It's literally about someone of the shot on new Lands,

1272
01:08:27,000 --> 01:08:28,720
Speaker 1: on an island full of insults and has to get

1273
01:08:28,720 --> 01:08:33,800
Speaker 1: out alive. Fantastic. Well, thank you for listening through all

1274
01:08:33,840 --> 01:08:37,720
Speaker 1: the way. If you are still here, hopefully, hopefully you've

1275
01:08:38,320 --> 01:08:42,519
Speaker 1: learned something interesting across these these these two pretty pretty

1276
01:08:42,560 --> 01:08:45,320
Speaker 1: heavy episodes. We will we will see you on the

1277
01:08:45,400 --> 01:08:51,960
Speaker 1: other side. It could Happen here as a production of

1278
01:08:52,000 --> 01:08:54,960
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. Well more podcasts from cool Zone Media.

1279
01:08:55,040 --> 01:08:57,680
Speaker 1: Visit our website cool zonemedia dot com, or check us

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Speaker 1: out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

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Speaker 1: listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.