1 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:08,559 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. What we saw yesterday 2 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: is a boost from private investment, from the likes of 3 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: Larry Frank of Blackrock. He was here at the G seven. 4 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 1: And what these in private investment funds are trying to 5 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 1: do is boost money going to the global South middle 6 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 1: income countries. And part of this is made possible by 7 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:24,279 Speaker 1: programs at the World Bank. And I'm pleased to be 8 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: joined by Anji Banga, Thank you so much for joining us. John. 9 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: There was talking about a big emphasis, especially on Africa. 10 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: This is to try one counter China from the US 11 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 1: point of view, but also European leaders are trying to 12 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: stem the flow of migration. How are you seeing this 13 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: public private partnership play out? 14 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 2: And so I think Africa. The real situation is that 15 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 2: Africa is going to get better than a half people 16 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 2: going to two and frankly, how can you not have 17 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 2: a continent of that contributing to future economic growth. That's 18 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 2: the other way of looking at why Africa And so 19 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 2: what I'm trying to talk about there is what creates 20 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 2: jobs for those young people. It's got a demographic dividend 21 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 2: coming through it. But if you don't give them clean air, 22 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 2: clean water, healthcare and education when they're growing up, and 23 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 2: jobs when they're older. We have a problem with that 24 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 2: demographic dividend becoming a liability. Can't do that only with 25 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 2: government money and multilateral money. That's why people like what 26 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 2: Laddier did yesterday Orsata was talking about, these are all 27 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 2: the ways to get private sector money as well to 28 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 2: come in at scale to help create the jobs in 29 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 2: that country. 30 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 1: How difficult are these conversations on the sideline of the 31 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 1: G seven when you see leaders here coming up wounded 32 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: by recent elections, mattered because what their electorate is focused 33 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:38,679 Speaker 1: on is rising prices at home and immigration coming into 34 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: their country. And meanwhile you have leaders talking about investments 35 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: in other parts of the world and also what's going 36 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: on of course with the war in Ukraine. 37 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, but if you're discussing private sector investing, this is 38 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 2: actually good for these leaders because it's a way to 39 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 2: enhance every dollar that governments and multilateral institutions put in 40 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 2: to add a little more and that's very, very helpful 41 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 2: to them. So it just depends how you approach this discussion. 42 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 2: My way of approaching it is it's not all about 43 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 2: the money you give. One on one bilaterally, it's about 44 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:09,360 Speaker 2: the leverage you get. So for example, if you give 45 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:11,679 Speaker 2: the World Bank money into what we call IDA, which 46 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 2: is the institution that provides grants and concessional financing to 47 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:19,919 Speaker 2: the poorer countries, a lot of which are currently in Africa. Unfortunately, 48 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 2: that gets the leverage. Every dollar you give me as 49 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:24,959 Speaker 2: a country as capital, I can make it four times. 50 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 2: So leaders know that too, and then if you bring 51 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 2: in the private sector, that four can become eight and ten. 52 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 2: So people are thinking about how to get a dollar 53 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 2: to go to ten, not just a dollar for a dollar, 54 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 2: And I think that makes for a good consation. 55 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:39,959 Speaker 1: But it's multilateralism harder, which I know you're a big 56 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: believer in. When you see the rise of nationalism. 57 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, sure. I've been saying for years when I 58 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 2: was in my old job private sector that a lot 59 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 2: of the biggest things that buries me you chauvinistic nationalism, 60 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 2: because it tends to create the absence of connectivity. But 61 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 2: I think if you look at the last few months itself, 62 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 2: we've managed to get capital and hybrid capital and portfolio 63 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,399 Speaker 2: guarantees into our institution and we are the one that's 64 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 2: working with this multilateralism. So let me give you an example. 65 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:09,839 Speaker 2: People keep asking me about the debt crisis in Africa, right, 66 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:12,360 Speaker 2: and if you think about the four countries from Africa 67 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 2: that entered the G twenty Common Framework, Zambdir, Chad, Ethiopia, 68 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 2: and Ghana. From the time they entered, we in the 69 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 2: Bank have given them sixteen billion dollars of money. Nobody 70 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 2: else has given them money. Of that, sixteen eight was 71 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:28,799 Speaker 2: concessional and eight was pure grants off. That sixteen nine 72 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 2: was net positive. So that's all multilateralism at work. People 73 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 2: just talk about one part of it. But multilateralism does 74 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 2: work with the leverage that institutions like the Bank provide. 75 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: We of course have a US election coming up, and 76 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: part of what you've wanted to expand and your approach 77 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: to the World Bank is not just poverty, but also climate. 78 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 1: Do you think that would be at risk if we 79 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: were to see a Trump presidency. 80 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 2: Not really. I remember that during his prior presidency he 81 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 2: was one of those who actually gave the capital increase 82 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 2: to the World Bank. He sees the value of this 83 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 2: leverage and the value value of this kind of institution. 84 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 2: Just to be clear, when I talked about a Liverpool Planet. 85 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 2: I want to make sure you know it's not just climate, 86 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 2: it's fragility, conflict, violence, it's things like pandemics and healthcare. 87 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 2: Because the whole idea of Liverpool Planet allows you to 88 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 2: expand the aperture depending on what's relevant in that country, 89 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 2: that region. In some cases it is climate. In some 90 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 2: cases it's fragility conflict that is driving things. In others 91 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 2: it is climate that is driving the fragility and conflict. 92 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 2: You have to get to the root cause and try 93 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 2: and go at it. 94 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 1: Well. There be more pressure, you think, whether or not 95 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: it's Trump or Biden, potentially to figure out what's going 96 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:37,479 Speaker 1: on with China. They're the biggest bilateral credit and many 97 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 1: say that what they are doing in a lot of 98 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:41,479 Speaker 1: these countries is called a debt trap. 99 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. Interesting, So I think where they are today it's 100 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:47,280 Speaker 2: quite different from what it probably was some years ago. 101 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 2: All the conversations we've had, the G twenty count framework 102 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 2: and the IMF in the World Bank run something called 103 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 2: this Global Debt Sustainability around table, and in that everybody 104 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 2: comes the multilateral So are there as the bilateral creditors, 105 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 2: the private sector creditors, of which there is a very 106 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 2: large amount, and then the so called earlier ones the 107 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 2: Paris Club. What's really changed is it's not just bilateral 108 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 2: credit that's an issue. It's also the private sector that 109 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 2: is involved in lending. So today, if you want to 110 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 2: do a debt restructuring for these countries, you have to 111 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 2: first know who's put what money on the table, what's 112 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 2: it costs, what's the covenants of its repayment, what's the 113 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 2: whole thing in it. Get that data on a sheet. 114 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:30,039 Speaker 2: Without that very hard to know how to adjust that 115 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,719 Speaker 2: money in. So that took time. But as you see 116 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:35,719 Speaker 2: it getting done and you can begin to see countries 117 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:38,719 Speaker 2: moving through the framework, I still think it's too slow. 118 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 2: I think it should be faster because if you make 119 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:45,119 Speaker 2: it faster, more countries will feel emboldened to enter into 120 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 2: the framework. And I think we need to work our 121 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 2: way through this. 122 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:50,919 Speaker 1: What you're offering, do you see as a viable path 123 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:53,359 Speaker 1: for these countries instead of say, turning to China. 124 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:57,239 Speaker 2: Oh yes, I think it's not either or by just China. 125 00:05:57,360 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 2: People are borrowing money from India, they're borrowing money from 126 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 2: the UN, United States, they're borrowing money from the UK. 127 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 2: Remember this bilateral creditors have been around for a long time. 128 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 2: It may be called oda in some cases maybe actual 129 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 2: lending through some countries. People there are countries borrowing bilaterally 130 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 2: as well. I don't think it's in either all that 131 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 2: has to be either multilateral or bilateral. I just think 132 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 2: it has to be done in a fair way, a 133 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 2: transparent way, in a way that we can all understand 134 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 2: what's going on, and then do it in a way 135 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 2: that the countries who are borrowing also don't use only 136 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 2: the borrowing as the resource, but also spend efforts on 137 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:34,039 Speaker 2: domestic resource mobilization, doing other things that enable them to 138 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:36,719 Speaker 2: free up the resources to do the right thing to development. 139 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 1: Aj Banga, thank you so much for your time.