1 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: On March twenty fourth, nineteen ninety four, a man named 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: Carl Voltz dropped off his friend Kenneth Hayes at twenty 3 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,719 Speaker 1: two point fifty Annabel Street in Detroit, Michigan. As he 4 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: got out of the car, a gunman came out of 5 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:17,080 Speaker 1: the darkness, fatally shooting Hayes as he struggled up the driveway. 6 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:21,599 Speaker 1: Neither Carl Volts nor anyone in the house had seen 7 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: the shooter's face. However, a car in the area belonged 8 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: to a young man named Jay Clay, which led investigators 9 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: to another young man named Larry Smith. The victim's landlord 10 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:35,240 Speaker 1: said that Hayes's grow friend identified Larry, and the landlord's 11 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: son thought the assailant walked like Larry as well. Then 12 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: Shell Casings allegedly founded the scene with the same size 13 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: as one allegedly found in Larry's laundry hamper. But this 14 00:00:48,479 --> 00:01:04,679 Speaker 1: is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. Today's episode 15 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: is an episode well of full circles. And when I 16 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:11,959 Speaker 1: say that we have somebody who listeners the show will 17 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 1: probably recognize one of my great heroes, Jared Adams, whose 18 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: full circle involved going from being wrongfully convicted himself, from 19 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 1: serving over a decade in a maximum security prison to 20 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 1: becoming a lawyer and helping other wrongfully convicted people get justice. Jarrett, 21 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: so great to have you back on the show. 22 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 2: Thank you. Jason, always a pleasure man. 23 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: The other full circle here is the star of our show, 24 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:41,400 Speaker 1: a gentleman named Larry Smith Junior. We're glad you're here. 25 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 3: Thank you very much. 26 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: When I say full circle. This is a man who's 27 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: working at a rec center now in Detroit, Michigan, helping 28 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 1: senior citizens as well as youth. And it is Detroit 29 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 1: that he was snatched out of when he was just 30 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 1: a kid himself. But before we get into all of that, 31 00:01:56,920 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: what was your life like growing up? Did you grow 32 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 1: up in a Detroit. 33 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 3: Yes, sir, I was the only child my mom. 34 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 4: She had me and then my siblings would come later, 35 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 4: like basically through it. I had adoption more or less. 36 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 4: But we was family. We grew up in the same 37 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 4: house and life was cool. My mom always told me 38 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 4: long as I worked, as long as I put forth 39 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 4: that effort, as long as I did well in school. 40 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 4: At the times was tough, but it was gonna come 41 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:21,359 Speaker 4: a time when they wouldn't be so tough. She was 42 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 4: gonna have those degrees that she was going and working 43 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 4: so hard for, and that our life was just gonna 44 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 4: be different. 45 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 3: Great. 46 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 1: So right, I read here that your mom was studying 47 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:33,399 Speaker 1: for her masters in sociology. Do you have similar aspirations? 48 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 1: I mean, you're just an eight year old kid at 49 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: the time. What did you have in mind? What did 50 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 1: you want to do with your life. 51 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 4: I was working and I was going to school, and 52 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:43,639 Speaker 4: my attent was to become a respiratory therapist. 53 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:45,119 Speaker 3: I think my future was promising. 54 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, and your nickname, I understand, was butter how'd that 55 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 1: come to be? 56 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 2: My mama? 57 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 3: Some with my mom when I was born? 58 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: My complexion And this is the Michigan story. And we've 59 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 1: heard a lot of Michigan stories on this show, and 60 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: this was aticular time and place when people were being framed. 61 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:05,799 Speaker 1: It's call it what it is like. It was day 62 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 1: in and day out. 63 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 2: You got to think about where Detroit was in the nineties, 64 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 2: just like a lot of the inner city neighborhoods dealing 65 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:17,080 Speaker 2: with the crack epidemic and drugs and gangs and things 66 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 2: like that. So Detroit was dealing with a bunch of homicides, 67 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:25,080 Speaker 2: you know, And what they would do is try to 68 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 2: find ways to resolve unsolved homicides, and they would do 69 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 2: it in a way that would just downright be violating 70 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 2: people's constitutional rights. 71 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: So Larry fell into the cross hairs somehow, and it 72 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: didn't make sense because you were a kid who wasn't 73 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 1: on the radar, shouldn't have been on the raidar of 74 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: the police at all, which must have been tricky just 75 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: to avoid that life in the area and that time 76 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: and place that you were growing up in. But somehow 77 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: or other, you were navigating these challenges and then everything 78 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: went crazy. So Jared set the stage for the whole 79 00:03:58,840 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: situation if you. 80 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 2: Would, well, I think the best place to start with. 81 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 2: Set in the stage is Ralph Cartwright, who was addicted 82 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 2: to drugs along with his mom, Sondra cart Right, lived 83 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 2: together in a house that they used to rent out 84 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 2: rooms to drug dealers to have a supply of drugs. 85 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 2: And in this case, the victim lived in one of 86 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 2: those rented rooms because he sold drugs and rob drug dealers. 87 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 1: Which is dangerous behavior to say the least. So the victim, 88 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:34,600 Speaker 1: Kenneth Hayes, was shot around five thirty am March twenty four, 89 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: eighty four, in front of the Cartwright's house at twenty 90 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 1: two fifty Annabel Street, Detroit, Michigan. 91 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 2: The victim was called out of his house at the 92 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 2: middle of the night to do a drug deal. He 93 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:50,359 Speaker 2: has someone drive him to an apartment complex. We assume 94 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:53,720 Speaker 2: he makes a purchase or not he comes back. When 95 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:56,159 Speaker 2: he's coming back and he's getting out of his vehicle 96 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 2: is when someone is lying in wait and runs out 97 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 2: of the bushes and fire shots. The victim takes off 98 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 2: and runs across the front of the car from whether 99 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 2: a person dropped them. 100 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: Off and the driver was mister Hayes's friend, a guy 101 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 1: named Carl Voltz, and. 102 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 2: Mister Volts saw the shooter and said, I couldn't see 103 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 2: anyone's face, but he gave a description, and it did 104 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 2: not match Larry at all. He described the man as 105 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 2: being heavy set. If you see any picture of Larry 106 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:30,039 Speaker 2: from back then Larry is then you would not mistake 107 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 2: him for being heavy set at all. 108 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:36,720 Speaker 1: Right, But Carl Voltz's description was disregarded, as was the 109 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: statement of another witness, the victim's girlfriend, who was in 110 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:41,840 Speaker 1: the house at the time of the shooting. What did 111 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:42,799 Speaker 1: she tell the police? 112 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 2: She said exactly what she said to the Conviction and 113 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 2: Charity unit. Years later, she says she never saw anyone 114 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 2: shoot the victim. The victim was her boyfriend, so she 115 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:55,720 Speaker 2: would have been honest about that. She said she was 116 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 2: still in the bed sleep and didn't see anything but 117 00:05:58,600 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 2: herd the shots. 118 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 3: No. 119 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: No one knew about that statement until years later. Rather, 120 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: there was a statement from the landlord, Sandra Cartwright, who, 121 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:10,039 Speaker 1: as someone involved in drugs, she and Ralph were vulnerable 122 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: to police coercion. Well Cartwright attributed the following words to 123 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:18,040 Speaker 1: the victim's girlfriend quote, I looked right in his face. 124 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 1: It was butter unquote and as we mentioned, that was 125 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 1: Larry's childhood nickname. 126 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 2: That same person denied ever saying that she saw Larry. 127 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 2: And she also told police the very same day that 128 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 2: they were investigating, that someone had came up to her 129 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 2: in a social club and told her that they were 130 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:40,919 Speaker 2: going to kill her boyfriend, and she gave them the 131 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 2: name of that person. And they never went to go 132 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 2: talk to this guy investigate this guy. 133 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 1: So instead of just an open and shut case, they 134 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,479 Speaker 1: chased down a far less compelling lead than a drug 135 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 1: dealer who was recently robbed, and who knows what kind 136 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:59,280 Speaker 1: of relationship that drug dealer had with law enforcement. So 137 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: this much less compelling lead was that one of the 138 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 1: witnesses had said that they saw a car that belonged 139 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:09,160 Speaker 1: to a friend of Larry's name, Jay Clay, who delivered newspapers. 140 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 1: But it was five thirty am, the typical newspaper delivery time, 141 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: and this was on his delivery route. 142 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:19,239 Speaker 2: Larry's friend has identified his vehicle driving past around the time. 143 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:23,559 Speaker 2: He has a legitimate reason why. Now, something like that 144 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 2: in most cases isn't uncommon to be reported and followed 145 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 2: up on, But in Larry's case, they didn't follow up 146 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 2: on it to investigate it, to find out if it 147 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 2: was any truth of whether his friend was involved, well, 148 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 2: whether he was involved. They investigated to make them involved. 149 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 2: They apply pressure to Sondra Cartwright and made her come 150 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 2: up with a version of events that has been found 151 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 2: to be untrue, and the police knew because they had 152 00:07:56,280 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 2: a police report from the young lady said she never 153 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 2: told Sandra cart Write anything about identifying Larry Smith as 154 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 2: shooting because she says she was never. 155 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 1: Up And then Ralph Cartwright supported his mother's narrative saying 156 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: that he didn't see Larry's face, but he recognized him 157 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: anyway in the area before and after the shooting. No, no, no, no, no, no, Like, 158 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: what does that even mean? 159 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 2: Larry was never identified ever at all by eyewitness. They 160 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 2: got the witness to say that the person that they 161 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 2: saw around the crow six, the way they walked was 162 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 2: similar to how that guy named Butter, you know, a 163 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 2: couple blocks down walked and also his freeend drives the car. 164 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 2: So you can see how if you want to make 165 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 2: that narrative fit, you can make it fit. 166 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: So we have Sandra cart Writ's secondhand identification even though 167 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 1: the alleged eyewitness said she never saw anyone, and then 168 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: Ralph making an identification of Larry's walk which sounds like 169 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 1: some sort of like that's almost junk science to the 170 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 1: nth degree. But this was just a precursor to actual 171 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 1: junk science later when a Hancho brand footprint was allegedly 172 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: found at the scene. Now, Larry, this was in your neighborhood. 173 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: Your friend Jay had probably overheard the shots. When did 174 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 1: you hear about it? 175 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 4: Well, my mom she called me at work, said she 176 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 4: wanted me to go to the police station. I ain't 177 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 4: asked no question, like okay, mama, I ain't did nothing, 178 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:30,079 Speaker 4: I ain't involved in nothing. So I got my car 179 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:33,079 Speaker 4: from work and I drove down there to me twenty 180 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,439 Speaker 4: six years, ten months in seven days actually to come 181 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 4: home from that ride. 182 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 2: So as they're investigating the case, they've already gotten out 183 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 2: ahead of their skis. They've charged both Larry's friend and 184 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 2: Larry with this murder based solely off of this guy 185 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 2: who says he saw the vehicle and he's seeing a 186 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:11,079 Speaker 2: guy running away who appears to walk like Larry, and 187 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 2: the third party statement of a lady who says someone 188 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 2: told them they saw, you know, Larry do it. So 189 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 2: the case immediately starts to fall apart because Jason it 190 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 2: wasn't true. On the day that Larry was arrested, the 191 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 2: police go inside of his house and they come out 192 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:37,839 Speaker 2: and say, we found some shellcasings and these shellcasings, mattch 193 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 2: some shellcasings that are over at the crime scene right right. 194 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:44,440 Speaker 1: They said forty caliber bullets were used, and then they 195 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: allegedly found an empty box of forty caliber bullets in 196 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:50,199 Speaker 1: Larry's bedroom, as well as a spent shellcasing in his 197 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: laundry hamper, which was then said to have been fired 198 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:54,680 Speaker 1: by the same weapon. 199 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:58,239 Speaker 2: But then the autopsy report comes back and the autopsy 200 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 2: says the victim was not with the shallcasings that you 201 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 2: got from the crime scene or that you got from 202 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 2: Larry's house. He was shot with a smaller caliber weapon 203 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 2: and the bullet was left inside of him. 204 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 1: Jesus Christ, it gets worse, It. 205 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 2: Gets, it gets worse. 206 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:20,320 Speaker 1: Listens to it to keep from crying sometimes, I know. 207 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 2: But this is gonna really blow your mind. Now. So 208 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 2: as the weeks are going on and they're turning into months, 209 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 2: and they're realizing that they got the wrong guy right, 210 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 2: the wrong two guys. 211 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: But they still tried to square this circle. So let 212 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 1: me guess they accused Jay the paper boy of firing 213 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: at thirty two. 214 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 2: The cold defendant is able to produce a lady, and 215 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 2: this is an older lady, very credible, no dog in 216 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 2: this fight. She says that that boy was on my 217 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 2: porch handing me the paper when we both heard the shots, 218 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 2: and so that definitively places the cold defendant delivering papers. 219 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 2: So they dissed the charges against the co defendant, And 220 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 2: now said Larry did this all by himself and had 221 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 2: to be shooting with two guns and got away on 222 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 2: foot there with. 223 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:13,439 Speaker 1: Two guns, like the wild West, like boo boom. 224 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:15,959 Speaker 2: Boom with the wild West. It gets worse, Okay, when 225 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,559 Speaker 2: they investigate further, they find out that the person who 226 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 2: dropped off the victim, mister Votes said, I couldn't see 227 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 2: anyone's face, but the guy was only firing from one gun. 228 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 2: So literally every step that they took to frame Larry, 229 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 2: it was unraveling. So what they did was they reached 230 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 2: to an old trick and they produced a jail house 231 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 2: informant who put together a false story and he had 232 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 2: never even met or seen or was even housed with Larry. 233 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,320 Speaker 1: So Larry, back to you. So now you're caught up 234 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:54,320 Speaker 1: in this vortex. I mean, describe to us what it 235 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: was like. You go from the police station, they interrogate you, 236 00:12:57,600 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 1: they took you straight to jail. From there, they kept. 237 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 3: Me in jail like three days, and they put me 238 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 3: in a county. 239 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: How long were you in jail awaiting trial? 240 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 3: Eight months or something? 241 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 1: Did you get to sign a public defenders trash? 242 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:11,679 Speaker 3: My mother, she took her last money and got an attorney. 243 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 4: He didn't do very well more or less like did 244 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 4: you ever heard the term somebody swap somebody out or 245 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 4: they don't do a great job. And I say that 246 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 4: because the guy who testified against me, the jail house person, 247 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 4: he had testified against other people as well. 248 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 3: He had a history and if. 249 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 4: Somebody would when it did some type of investigation, it 250 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 4: was records that was in there, but the police and 251 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 4: the prosecutors had them. 252 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:34,679 Speaker 3: They was in eight files, and. 253 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 1: It's possible that they never made those records available to 254 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 1: your attorney, just like the statement from the victim's girlfriend. 255 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 1: But had you known about this repeat offender snitch, that 256 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: could have crumbled their whole house of cards. But still, 257 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 1: even without that, this snitch, Edward Allen, his story was 258 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:56,559 Speaker 1: full of holes. He alleged that you had bragged about 259 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: how you killed Kenneth Hayes with a glock nine millimeter 260 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: guns right while J. Clay had a forty five caliber. 261 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,959 Speaker 1: So he got the calibers wrong and the number of 262 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 1: assailants wrong. Pretty important details. But nonetheless, the state went 263 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 1: to trial in November of ninety four, presenting the cart rights, 264 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: this erroneous snitch testimony, as well as the forty caliber 265 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: shell casings, which allegedly served as this connection between Larry 266 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 1: and the crime scene, even though the victim was killed 267 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 1: by a thirty two caliber weapon and the only actual eyewitness, 268 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 1: Carl Voltz, said that the shooter fired only one gun. 269 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, the police tried to frame Larry. 270 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 2: It was a plant of forty caliber shalecasinges at and 271 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 2: around the scene of the shooting, and that these showcases 272 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 2: were recovered from Larry's house, and when the ballistics came 273 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 2: back from the autopsy, it clearly was not the same 274 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 2: caliber and there was some explaining to do. 275 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 1: Yet they still presented a police technician and a detective 276 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 1: that testified about the forty caliber bullets found at the 277 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 1: scene in Larry's house, followed by a medical examiner who 278 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 1: testified about the thirty two caliber bullets found in the 279 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: body of the victim. 280 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, and the bullet is so much bigger on a 281 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 2: forty caliber. 282 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: They even presented a police firearms expert, David Pouch, who 283 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 1: testified to that fact, but he also testified that the 284 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: forty caliber casings found at Larry's house were fired by 285 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: the same gun as the casings from the scene, So 286 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: in other words, just doubling down on the two gun theory. 287 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 2: Even though the only real eyewitness, Carl Votes, has said 288 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 2: he never saw anything but one person shooting with one gun. 289 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 2: Carl testified that as soon as the victim got out 290 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 2: of the car, someone ran out of a gangway and 291 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 2: opened fire on him, who he described in detail, and 292 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 2: the description did not match Larry at all. 293 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 1: While Carl Bowles exonerated Larry, if the jury were to 294 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: believe him over law enforcement, it would have meant that 295 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: those shells had to have been planted in Larry's house, 296 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 1: which was something it seems like they were not willing 297 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: to accept. It would have also meant that two more 298 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 1: officials who took the stand and claimed that Larry had 299 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: made incriminating statements to them while in custody, had actually 300 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: perjured themselves. 301 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 2: They did purged themselves, I mean, point blank period. 302 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 1: They lot, but somehow they had muddied the waters enough 303 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: with the casing allegedly found at Larry's house and the scene, 304 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 1: in addition to a bootprint that was found at the 305 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 1: scene that they matched with the Hancho brand boot taken 306 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 1: from Larry's house. When the shoe print analyst took the stand, 307 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: the prosecutor asked, quote, and these are a mirror image 308 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 1: of that pattern, end quote to which the expert agreed. 309 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 2: If I found a pair of prints for air Jordans, 310 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 2: what does that mean nothing? 311 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 1: There are other Air Jordans, just like there are other 312 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: Hancho brand boots. I mean right, It's like, did they 313 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 1: only manufacture one pair? It's insane, which is one reason 314 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 1: why shoeprint analysis is such bullshit, especially when there's no 315 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: other corroborating information. 316 00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 2: The boot was a boot that his cousin had a 317 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 2: bag full of other clothes. They never provided any context 318 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,440 Speaker 2: to this boot. They never said they saw any mud 319 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 2: on the boots, that the boots had looked like it 320 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 2: had been worn at all. There was never any pictures 321 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 2: matched up to the prints of the boots. The shit 322 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 2: was all made up. 323 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 1: And you can hear the shoe print analysis episode of 324 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction junk signs that we're gonna have linked in 325 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: the bio. I just listened to it again myself. It's 326 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: it's mind boggling. So now we get to our witnesses. 327 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: Let's start with Sandra cart Right, who testified about the 328 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 1: victim's girlfriend's alleged identification. Quote I looked him right in 329 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 1: the face. It was butter end quote. 330 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, I looked him right in the face. And Sandra 331 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:43,359 Speaker 2: cart Wright had an open case against her, and she 332 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:46,119 Speaker 2: didn't come to court to testify. On a day that 333 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 2: she was called, the police issued a warrant for her arrest, 334 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 2: and in exchange for her testifying, they dismissed the charges 335 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 2: that were pending against her. 336 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,440 Speaker 1: So incentivized to say the least. But this statement was 337 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,440 Speaker 1: a second hand account. What about the girlfriend herself? 338 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 2: She was never called to court. It was some trickery. 339 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 2: And you know, there were some shortcomings of Larry's defense. 340 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 2: I'll just say that a fast one was gotten over 341 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 2: on them, and this witness was never called. I don't 342 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 2: believe that the defense team ever had the police report 343 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 2: that was taken the night of from the witness who 344 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 2: says that she never saw anyone. I believe if they 345 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:26,159 Speaker 2: had that they would have called her. Because we know 346 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 2: that Larry himself didn't learn of it until after his 347 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 2: post conviction lawyer had obtained it. And this was already 348 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 2: a decade later. 349 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 1: Wow, So the judge, jury and defense were completely unaware 350 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 1: of the girlfriend's actual statement just Sandra cart writes secondhand 351 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 1: testimony to the contrary with no opportunity to cross examine 352 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 1: the actual eyewitness. 353 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 2: And not only can they not cross examine this person, 354 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 2: but now you have a jail house in Foreignert coming 355 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 2: in and you know, he's like, yeah, he told me 356 00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 2: he did it, and things like that, and so you 357 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 2: put that together, it's the perfect storm. 358 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: And I understand that the inconsistencies between the guns and 359 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 1: the snitch testimony and the thirty two caliber bullets pulled 360 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 1: from the body of the victim that was never pointed out. 361 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 4: I didn't know nothing about this guy testified that gives 362 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:16,679 Speaker 4: me doing what he had a history of doing. Like 363 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:18,919 Speaker 4: I just knew I didn't say nothing to him. I 364 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 4: knew I didn't say nothing to no police, that I 365 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 4: didn't commit no crime. 366 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: So the fabricated evidence appears to have overcome the only 367 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 1: actual eyewitness, Carl Voltz, as well as your mother who 368 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:35,400 Speaker 1: testified about how you were in your basement bedroom all 369 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 1: night long. 370 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 2: She knew Larry was in the house because she was 371 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 2: in the front room finishing up their dissertation to complete 372 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 2: her Masters and it was only one way Larry could 373 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 2: get out of his room. He would have to come 374 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 2: up the stairs and go out the front door. 375 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 4: When they said guilty, man, do you know that? 376 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 3: My lawyer? 377 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 4: When I asked him, I said what they say. He 378 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,400 Speaker 4: pushed away from me like he was scared. He didn't 379 00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:59,439 Speaker 4: even want to talk to me. He wanted to be 380 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:02,680 Speaker 4: separated from me. And it was like, you got my life. 381 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:19,120 Speaker 4: Man helped me, you know, helped me. Goodness, man, I'm sorry. 382 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 4: I went to Riverside quarantine. First, they brought us off 383 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 4: a bus, all of us together, and they had a 384 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 4: woman strip searchers like they had a man tell us 385 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 4: take all our clothes off, and they had a lady 386 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 4: inspectors like we was cattle. This introduction into institutions, it 387 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 4: was like experience and the closest thing that I could 388 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 4: see slaves having. My second day in general population, I've 389 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 4: seen a guy get raped. I walked in the shower 390 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 4: on the guy was getting raped. Eight months seeing I've 391 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 4: seen a guy get killed. 392 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 3: I stayed there about ten months. 393 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 4: From there, they send me up north to u RF 394 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 4: and that stand for you are fucked. 395 00:20:57,560 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 3: They had on KKK. 396 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 4: Belt buckles, tattoos and that you would have to fight 397 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:05,359 Speaker 4: with the guards period, and if you didn't fight the guard, 398 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:07,360 Speaker 4: you had to go to the hole for a year. 399 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 4: If you whooped the guard, then you was the man. 400 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 4: If you didn't whoop the guard or you was refused 401 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 4: to fight. If you lost, it was okay. But if 402 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 4: you didn't fight, you had to go to a hole. 403 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 1: For a year like some gladiator shit. 404 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:23,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure, they tell you fight fuck a lock up, 405 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:27,360 Speaker 4: and that's what it was. So to go through that experience. 406 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 4: In the whole time, all I'm saying is, damn God, 407 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 4: why you do this to me? Like I ain't dead nothing, 408 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 4: So now like I'm going through process of okay, ain't 409 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 4: no God, ain't no, this, ain't no that. Like Mama, 410 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 4: I'm trying. Every phone causes eight to ten dollars to 411 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 4: call home everything. I'm just a purity burden on everybody. 412 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:48,880 Speaker 4: I need help. The only help I got his meat. 413 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,639 Speaker 4: I just got testified against by somebody who I don't know. 414 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 4: And then I'm back in nineteen ninety five. I'm finding 415 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,120 Speaker 4: out that the guy who testified against me, the jail 416 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:00,200 Speaker 4: house person, he had testified against other people as well. 417 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 4: He had a history. Well how do I find these people? 418 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:05,919 Speaker 4: And that's put off a whole nother rat race because 419 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:08,160 Speaker 4: now I'm going through the process of learning to live 420 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 4: inside of this environment. But I got to ask people 421 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 4: who they call killers, that I need to find out 422 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:15,360 Speaker 4: what the hell is going on with me in my life. 423 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 1: So you were navigating this horrendously violent situation while not 424 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:24,399 Speaker 1: knowing who, if anyone, you can trust, but still desperately 425 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: in need of information on this snitch Edward Allen, who 426 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 1: was a prolific jail house snitch, and he wasn't the 427 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: only one by far. Rather, Wayne County had a snitch 428 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 1: system where they were sort of routinely incentivizing these guys 429 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: not only with lenient sentences, but they took it several 430 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:47,360 Speaker 1: steps further. I'm talking about drugs, women they would provide. 431 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 1: They basically turned part of the police station into a flophouse. 432 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 2: Just going to say that too, Jason, where you can 433 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 2: come and have girls come in and go out. And 434 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 2: really what they were doing was this. They had a 435 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 2: couple men at a time who were housed on a 436 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 2: ninth floor lockup. And let me explain what the ninth 437 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 2: floor lockup is. If you're suspected of a crime, the 438 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 2: police could hold you for up to forty eight hours, 439 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,719 Speaker 2: but at that point they have to either release or 440 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 2: charge you. So anyone on the ninth floor is only 441 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 2: supposed to be on the ninth floor for up to 442 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 2: forty eight to seventy two hours. You know, at most 443 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 2: they had a couple men at a time who were 444 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 2: living on the ninth floor who were Michigan Department of 445 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 2: Corrections inmates who were ritted out and housed on the 446 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:43,159 Speaker 2: ninth floor and given jobs as tear tenders, and they 447 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 2: would grab a broom, sweep past your sale, start a 448 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 2: conversation up with you, and he go out the next 449 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 2: day and say I talked to him what you need 450 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:53,160 Speaker 2: me to do? 451 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: And that was the scheme. If I understand this correctly. 452 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: They were giving these guys on the ninth floor like 453 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: papers to read so that they would know what to say, 454 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 1: right because they obviously nobody confessed to these idiots when 455 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,679 Speaker 1: they were sweeping along the thing like, I mean, just 456 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: thick for a second, how ridiculous that is. Some guy's 457 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,360 Speaker 1: sweeping along. It's like, hey, Larry, how you doing. Oh 458 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:17,640 Speaker 1: I'm doing great. I just killed this guy at five 459 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning. How you doing? What's your name? Again, 460 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 1: it's so stupid that it's like, I mean, nobody's gonna 461 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 1: do that. Yeah, but somehow or other they were able 462 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:25,160 Speaker 1: to sell it. 463 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 2: And one of the alleged culprits who was in this 464 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,639 Speaker 2: informant thing, he had done this upwards of twenty cases 465 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,919 Speaker 2: and no alarm bells go off none. This goes without saying, 466 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 2: but I have to say it. This was happening to 467 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 2: young black men in the city of Detroit. This would 468 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 2: have raised alarm beals if this took place in an 469 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 2: affluent neighborhood or county. They were only doing this to 470 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 2: people who had very little resources to afford a defense. 471 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,640 Speaker 2: And you say this all the time, Jason. The justice 472 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:00,399 Speaker 2: system is what you can afford, which. 473 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 1: You can't absolutely and it starts with cash bail, because 474 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 1: let's face it, if you have money for bail, you 475 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: don't go through the same experience in the criminal legal 476 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 1: system as those who don't. Guilty not guilty, it doesn't matter. 477 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: Only money matters, and not having it can leave you 478 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 1: in a situation or an informant has an opportunity to 479 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 1: trade false information on you, as what happened in this case, 480 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 1: that can then be spun to appear truthful in court. 481 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 1: And this Edward Allen and countless other snitches have worked 482 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,679 Speaker 1: the system with their allies in the prosecutor's offices around 483 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,680 Speaker 1: the country, and who knows, we'll never know how many 484 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 1: lives they've ruined. 485 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 4: By the admission of the guy testified against me, not 486 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 4: only did he lie, he was weaponized by them. They 487 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 4: taught him what to do when he was a minor 488 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 4: and then became an adult, and then made it all 489 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 4: the way to do it to me. Matter of fact, 490 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,400 Speaker 4: it's a guy named Charles Wilson one seven two six 491 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,919 Speaker 4: eight eight. The same guy testified against me, testified against 492 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 4: him thirteen years before. 493 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 2: Why he's still in prison. 494 00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 1: He's still in prisons. 495 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 3: Yes, he's in prison right now, twenty some years. 496 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 1: And that's Charles Wilson. I'm just gonna write that name 497 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 1: down right now. I got it our producer Connor, who's 498 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 1: of course listening in. It sounds like we're gonna have 499 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:09,920 Speaker 1: to cover this case. 500 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 2: We're representing mister Wilson. We definitely need a push. I'll 501 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 2: discuss to you. You know what our strategy. 502 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,679 Speaker 1: Is, well, you know my number. So this guy, Edward Allen, 503 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 1: Larry was definitely not his only you know, victim, Let's 504 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: call it what it is. In fact, he gave an 505 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,239 Speaker 1: interview edbro Allen gave an interview in twenty seventeen in 506 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,639 Speaker 1: which he spilled his guts on everything, which ended up 507 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:36,120 Speaker 1: being very helpful in freeing Larry and several others. 508 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 2: When the informant was interviewed, he said he had never 509 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 2: seen Larry before. He didn't even know what he looked like. 510 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 2: He says that he was fed the information by prosecutors 511 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:52,440 Speaker 2: and by police officers and told what to say, who 512 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 2: to point out, and how to get around the questions 513 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:57,880 Speaker 2: of the defense attorney. This was not an accident. This 514 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 2: was deliberate. Larry and his mom were ill prepared to 515 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 2: fight against this because Larry had never been in any 516 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,879 Speaker 2: trouble before. His mom at the time that this was 517 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 2: going on, she was so adamant that Larry didn't do anything. 518 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 2: And do you know whose testimony they found not credible 519 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 2: and whose testimony they found credible? I can guess they 520 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:23,640 Speaker 2: found mom's testimony not credible. But somehow a lifelong informant 521 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 2: who had not even met Larry didn't have any of 522 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 2: the details correct. Somehow the court in the jurors found 523 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,880 Speaker 2: this got to be more credible than the person who 524 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 2: gave birth and raised. 525 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: Larry credible until, of course, he was no longer useful. 526 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,879 Speaker 1: And as I understand it, before the twenty seventeen interview 527 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 1: and all this information came out, Allen had actually written 528 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: a letter to Larry in two thousand and three admitting 529 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,639 Speaker 1: that he'd lied. But the judge denied your motion for 530 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,399 Speaker 1: a new trial anyway, saying that she didn't find Alan's 531 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:59,680 Speaker 1: recantation credible. How convenient, then your new attorney, Mary Owens, 532 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 1: filed habeas in two thousand and seven. The following year, 533 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: the Michigan State Crime Lab was shuddered after widespread errors 534 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 1: and firearm testing and ballistics evidence were exposed, including in 535 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,159 Speaker 1: cases involving the expert in your case, David Pouch. So 536 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,439 Speaker 1: when Mary Owen sought to retest the forty caliber casings 537 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 1: allegedly found at the scene and in your basement, the 538 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: crime scene casings were saved, but the one from your 539 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 1: basement had been destroyed. Again quite convenient. 540 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,280 Speaker 4: So I had just jumped from two thousand and seven 541 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 4: to twenty and thirteen, right, I'm transferring from prison to prison. 542 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 4: So a guy by the name of Jesse agnew He 543 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:35,919 Speaker 4: asked me to see a brief of mine. He said, hey, man, 544 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 4: I'm gonna introduce you to Claudia Whitman. She came from 545 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 4: Colorado and she went to bat for me for like 546 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 4: twelve years. She fought for me pro bono, her and 547 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 4: Mary Owens, and come be known all the guys who 548 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 4: got released based on this what happened to me. Claudia Whitman, 549 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 4: she ended up knowing all of them. 550 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,960 Speaker 2: There were four guys whose convictions were reversed that were 551 00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 2: tied to this ninth floor allegation in a certain set 552 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 2: of homicide detectives, and. 553 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 4: They had what they call our Conviction Integrity Unit in 554 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 4: Wayne County. That's what opened up and that's what freed me. 555 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 2: So when Val Newman and the Conviction Integrity Unit started 556 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 2: investigating these cases, they saw that the same allegations were 557 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 2: being made. And Jason, you know how that goes, right, Like, 558 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 2: if one person, yeah, two persons maybe, but if three, 559 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 2: four people, five people are saying the same thing, then 560 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 2: it deserves some credit and also some deeper dive investigation. 561 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 2: In Larry's case, they went to interview the witnesses again, 562 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 2: and sure enough, the young lady said again she never 563 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 2: told anyone she saw Larry shoot anyone because she wasn't 564 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 2: even looking out outside. She said she never said it. 565 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 2: So at that point is when I believe Val Newman 566 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 2: and the Conviction Intergrity Unit acknowledged the corruption that was 567 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 2: so blatant in the case. I took my cap to 568 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 2: the courage it took from that office to would turn 569 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 2: his conviction, because if it was left to Larry filling 570 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 2: the motion in court, we would be doing this interview 571 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 2: off of a prison call, because no court really designed 572 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 2: to take such courageous acts. They are more so designed 573 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 2: to preserve finality than they are to deliver justice. 574 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: That's true across our entire criminal legal system, unfortunately, and 575 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court of the United States actually ruled that 576 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 1: way and said that even in death penalty cases, that 577 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: finality is more important than actual innocence. And people find 578 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,560 Speaker 1: that shocking, and it is shocking, and it should be 579 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 1: shocking to anybody of good conscience or just anybody at all. 580 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 1: But that's where we're at. And of course the system 581 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 1: is designed thanks to the awful EDPA Act back from 582 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four and other factors. Yeah, we need to 583 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 1: repeal edput exactly. And these things make it virtually impossible 584 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 1: for somebody to dig out of that quicksand that you 585 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 1: found yourself in. And luckily there was a conviction of 586 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 1: you unit, and luckily there was somebody there who was sincere, 587 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 1: and that's a big part of why you're here. 588 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 2: Man. 589 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 4: It's heavy, and I think every day like I love 590 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 4: al Newman because if it be one for her, I wouldn't 591 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 4: be out of prison. She said that one wrongfully convicted 592 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 4: was one too many. So you know, I'm just hopeful 593 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 4: that they hear this and they hear the pleat for 594 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:18,960 Speaker 4: that man, Charles Wilson, so that I can get that 595 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 4: stuff for all my conscience because I know that guy 596 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 4: lied on me. And every time I talk to Charles Wilson, 597 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 4: I'm telling him, Bro, it's gonna be all right. And 598 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 4: it's making me feel like I'm a liar, because it's 599 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 4: not all right for somebody to wake up for forty 600 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 4: years plus in prison for a crime to commit. 601 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 3: It's not all right. 602 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, we're in that fight together and that's for sure. 603 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 1: And we got Jared, you know, And for me, it's 604 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 1: such an honor to get to know you and to 605 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 1: see people like yourself who've been through hell and come 606 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 1: out carrying buckets of water for the people left behind. 607 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think there's anything better. You know, 608 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 1: you could be doing and taking this horrible, horrible, unimaginable 609 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 1: experience and transforming it into positive good, just as Jarrett 610 00:31:57,760 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: has done and has so many of the other ex houneries. 611 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:03,800 Speaker 1: So okay, so let's get to the good stuff. So 612 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 1: ultimately you prevailed. So take us to that series of events, 613 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 1: because I you know, we've had a lot of doom 614 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 1: and gloom on this show, but I want to hear 615 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: the good stuff. 616 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 4: Well, they had let Ramon War go, they had a 617 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 4: little Sino Hamilton go, they had let Banara Hower go. 618 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 4: So watching these people go, my attorney told me that 619 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 4: she felt like they was going to do something. So 620 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 4: I was in the in there sleeping and guys come 621 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 4: and hit the door. 622 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 3: Boom boom boom boom boom. I jump up, like, man, 623 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:32,320 Speaker 3: what's up? 624 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,720 Speaker 4: Go to the door. They're like, man, you going home tomorrow. 625 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 4: You're going home tomorrow. And it's people all I'm talking about, 626 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 4: like prisoners. They all in the hall way and I'm 627 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 4: coming out. I'm looking like what's up? And the security 628 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 4: guards people they clapping. 629 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 3: Like, bro, you're going home tomorrow. I'm like what They're like, Yeah, 630 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 3: I go to the TV. I see it on the TV. 631 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 3: I get up there. 632 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 4: I started passing my stuff for a whund because they 633 00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 4: say I'm going to court tomorrow where they saying they're 634 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 4: going to drop the charges. So the next day came 635 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 4: and I didn't go to court. I just walked straight 636 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 4: from back in the day room with a prison to 637 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 4: the control center to the street where I read a foreigner, 638 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,560 Speaker 4: half paid statement about other people in it semitically frail 639 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 4: over sentenced being incarcerated, asking the governor to take a 640 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 4: look at what had been taking place. And that's just 641 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 4: what happened, man Like. It wasn't no big long. It was, oh, 642 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:23,960 Speaker 4: you're going home to Maryland, and I was to it. 643 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: I must have seemed like a dream, especially since you 644 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 1: were woken up out of a deep sleep and just banging, 645 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden everybody's cheering. I mean, 646 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 1: you must have had that dream before and now it 647 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:33,720 Speaker 1: was real. 648 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 4: I'll just say this for anybody who've been through what 649 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 4: we've been through. Right, they gonna understand this. It's times 650 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,239 Speaker 4: in my life that I still think I'm dreaming. But 651 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 4: I'm not gonna do nothing to mess it up. See, 652 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:45,720 Speaker 4: I ain't gonna do nothing to mess it up long 653 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 4: as I keep putting out good energy, long as I 654 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 4: keep giving the love that was bestowed on me. 655 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,320 Speaker 3: See, I ain't get a second chance. This was really 656 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:54,200 Speaker 3: my first chance. 657 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 4: But for a lot of people our experiences, they considered 658 00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 4: to be a second chance. They say stuff like, don't 659 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 4: do that no more. Right, So you're right, I won't 660 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 4: go down to the police station. Like, you're right, I 661 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 4: won't do that no more. But as far Red just 662 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 4: loving it being a part of giving energy and advocating 663 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:13,880 Speaker 4: on behalf of innocent people, medically frail people. Oh but 664 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 4: since people like I'm gonna do that every day and 665 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 4: a day gonna go by, I ain't gonna do that. 666 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,319 Speaker 1: Larry, is there anything you want people to do? Is 667 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:24,880 Speaker 1: there a website you think they should go to? Is 668 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 1: there another person besides Charles Wilson you want to shout 669 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,319 Speaker 1: out and bring attention to their case? And what can 670 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 1: people do to help? 671 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 4: So out of Wayne County we got Tamara Washington, She's 672 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 4: going through what I'm going through. They say her file 673 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 4: is missing. So she talked to Dwayne County prosecuted. She 674 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,400 Speaker 4: told us that she would do what was needed in 675 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 4: order to help her out, but she never did. So 676 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 4: I want to shout out to Merraa Washington four A 677 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,879 Speaker 4: six three six y four Wayne Duve sixteen forty four 678 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,319 Speaker 4: ninety eight, again innocent, but he been in prison over 679 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:55,680 Speaker 4: forty some years. So I want to ask you guys 680 00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,719 Speaker 4: this question. When a person is innocent, right and they 681 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,759 Speaker 4: got natural life, when you say that over and over again, 682 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 4: what is the next step? Is there any formal relief? 683 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:06,279 Speaker 4: Is there any formal relief with a person with a 684 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 4: death sentence inside of prison? Is there another option that's 685 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,200 Speaker 4: made available for that person too? So you serve forty 686 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,319 Speaker 4: forty one, forty five years, when is enough enough? So 687 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:18,400 Speaker 4: I just want to point that out that in this 688 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 4: country where you don't have no self gates and then 689 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,920 Speaker 4: how you pronounce it the ADPA atput so then you 690 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 4: got something as such, it don't allow us to file 691 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 4: our appeals. So I'm hopeful that us is on the 692 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,799 Speaker 4: reads as a collective can march down on DC, and 693 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,840 Speaker 4: that we could talk to these administrations about what's taking 694 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,719 Speaker 4: place in this country. Because without getting our friends at 695 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,319 Speaker 4: the top to help us on our local levels and 696 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 4: getting our people on the local levels to work with 697 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:45,120 Speaker 4: us people on these levels. 698 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:46,720 Speaker 3: We done, man, We done. 699 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 4: So that's all I just want to say, is innocent 700 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 4: medically frail over sentience It When you get old and 701 00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 4: you innocent, you're going to die in prison. That means 702 00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 4: you're gonna become medically frail because you over sentenced. I 703 00:35:57,480 --> 00:35:58,560 Speaker 4: just want people to learn that. 704 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,680 Speaker 1: With that, we now turned to my favorite part of 705 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 1: the show, which of course is called closing arguments or 706 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:08,840 Speaker 1: I again thank YouTube guys, Jared Adams, Larry Smith Jr. 707 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,680 Speaker 1: For being here with us today and sharing your stories. 708 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 1: And then I'm going to turn my microphone off and 709 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 1: kick back in my chair, close my eyes with my 710 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 1: headphones on, and just listen to any other thoughts you 711 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:25,320 Speaker 1: want to share with me and our amazing audience. So, Jared, 712 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 1: we always do it the same way. You go first, 713 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 1: and then we turn it over to our future guest. 714 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,239 Speaker 2: I would love for us to find a way to 715 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:39,719 Speaker 2: implement both strategies that prevent wrongful convictions collectively as well 716 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 2: as tackle issues of reintegration. And I say collectively again, 717 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:47,799 Speaker 2: and I'm speaking to the entire innocent world when i 718 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 2: say this, the innocence world, the movement, the network, the organizations. 719 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 2: We need to start moving as one body because it 720 00:36:55,560 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 2: is way too difficult to deal with one case alone. Collectively, 721 00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 2: if we move in the same direction, the same accord, 722 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,880 Speaker 2: same beat, it allows us to fight this giant a 723 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:12,120 Speaker 2: lot more effectively. I say that along with tackling the 724 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:16,160 Speaker 2: issue of government entities such as cities like the City 725 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:20,240 Speaker 2: of Detroit, who has decided not to compensate mister Smith 726 00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:25,160 Speaker 2: but instead find a way to limit their damages and 727 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:29,440 Speaker 2: continue to drag mister Smith through this anxiety field roller 728 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:32,960 Speaker 2: coaster that has not sopped since he went down to 729 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,239 Speaker 2: the police station willingly because his mama called him. 730 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,840 Speaker 4: I'm just going to say that for every person that's 731 00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 4: got a family member that's incarcerated, some people saying they innocent, 732 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,280 Speaker 4: other people, you know, they're just there for a long time, 733 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:48,719 Speaker 4: don't give up on your people. If if my people 734 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:50,120 Speaker 4: would have gave up on me, I would have died 735 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,239 Speaker 4: in prison for a crime ie commit. And it was 736 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:54,160 Speaker 4: that energy that allowed me to carry on to our 737 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,399 Speaker 4: community in which I stay here and to be able 738 00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,520 Speaker 4: to put forth these actions. So I just call on 739 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,240 Speaker 4: every person out there to put forth they good effort, 740 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:05,120 Speaker 4: put forth they good heart, because it's something good and everybody. 741 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:06,160 Speaker 3: I'm hopeful anyway. 742 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 4: So free William Wiley, Free Tamia Washington, of course, free 743 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 4: Charles Wilson. And thank you for having us, Thank you 744 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,279 Speaker 4: for having Jared and myself, and thank you for doing 745 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:20,120 Speaker 4: what you do. Oh freeda innocent freedom medically frail Fredo 746 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 4: over since we cannot lead it out. 747 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,600 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrong for Conviction. You can 748 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,120 Speaker 1: listen to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts 749 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 1: one week early by subscribing to Lava for Good Plus 750 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our production team 751 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 1: Connor Hall, Andy Chelsea, and Kathleen Fink, as well as 752 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:46,400 Speaker 1: my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Cliburn. 753 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:48,799 Speaker 1: The music in this production was supplied by three time 754 00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 1: OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us 755 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,080 Speaker 1: across all social media platforms at Lava for Good and 756 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:57,920 Speaker 1: at Wrong for Conviction. You can also follow me on 757 00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,520 Speaker 1: Instagram at it's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is a production 758 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:04,840 Speaker 1: of Lava for Good podcasts in association with Signal Company 759 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:09,120 Speaker 1: Number one