WEBVTT - Determinative Decisions Before Birth: Genes and Names

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin. Welcome back to Risky Business, a show about making

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<v Speaker 1>better decisions. I'm Maria Kanikova, and today my co host

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<v Speaker 1>Nate Silver is gallivanting in Norway, I believe, and so

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<v Speaker 1>I have an amazing guest co host, an old, dear

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<v Speaker 1>friend of mine, brilliant writer, incredible thinker, David Epstein. David

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<v Speaker 1>is the author of two international bestsellers of the sports

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<v Speaker 1>Gene and Range Folks Are Incredible, highly recommend and a

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<v Speaker 1>book that will be out next year, Inside the Box.

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<v Speaker 1>And we'll have him back on when that comes out.

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<v Speaker 1>And I'm really glad to have him here today to

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<v Speaker 1>talk about a topic that he knows a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>about to day in the show, our first segment is

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<v Speaker 1>going to be about genetics and designer babies and the

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<v Speaker 1>ethics of it, the implications of it, what kind of

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<v Speaker 1>world we want to live in, and after that we'll

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<v Speaker 1>be talking about a different kind of determinism for what

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<v Speaker 1>ends up happening to you in your life, which is

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<v Speaker 1>does your name matter? Welcome to the show, David, Thank

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<v Speaker 1>you so much for being my co host today.

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<v Speaker 2>Nate's lost my gain. I'm glad to be here. Thanks

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<v Speaker 2>for inviting me.

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<v Speaker 1>Of course, of course. All right, So first up, we're

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<v Speaker 1>going to talk a little bit about genetics. So there

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<v Speaker 1>is a new startup, Orchid, that's been in the news,

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<v Speaker 1>and the Orchid pitch is that we can help you

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<v Speaker 1>determine all sorts of genetic things about your embryos so

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<v Speaker 1>that you can choose one that avoids the risk of

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<v Speaker 1>certain diseases, et cetera, et cetera. They are doing different

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<v Speaker 1>sources of testing, different types of testing. They don't really

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<v Speaker 1>their client lists, but it has been said that a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of them are among the elites of Silicon Valley

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<v Speaker 1>tech entrepreneurs, people who are kind of the movers and

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<v Speaker 1>shakers of the modern world. So first, David, what do

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<v Speaker 1>you just think in general about the whole concept of

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<v Speaker 1>being able to determine You know, you have tons of embryos,

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<v Speaker 1>and yeah, we can pick the ones that we want

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<v Speaker 1>based on certain factors. And by the way, like little caveat,

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<v Speaker 1>people have been doing this in terms of disease for

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<v Speaker 1>multiple years now. Right, if we can test for a

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<v Speaker 1>disease risk, if I have a family risk, for instance,

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<v Speaker 1>of schizophrenia something like that, we can try to mitigate that.

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<v Speaker 1>Somehow schizophrenia was actually a really bad one to choose,

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<v Speaker 1>because that's a polygrotic, very difficult one. But that's the

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<v Speaker 1>general idea originally as we as we have just said,

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<v Speaker 1>this goes further. So what are your initial thoughts on

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<v Speaker 1>something like that?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, in a very broad way, by the way, I

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<v Speaker 2>think this get it's an issue where like everyone's talking

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<v Speaker 2>about how AI is going to change our lives, and

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<v Speaker 2>I've thought genetics and gene editing and genetic selection in

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<v Speaker 2>the long term have the potential to more fundamentally change

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<v Speaker 2>our lives than AI does. But I think the issue

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know a lot about Orchid. I mean I

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<v Speaker 2>looked at a very little bit about them specifically, so

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know all the services they do. But obviously

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<v Speaker 2>they're emphasizing the health stuff, which I think is a

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<v Speaker 2>matter of degree difference from what people are already doing. Right, Like,

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<v Speaker 2>people already screen for chromosomal abnormalities, you know, down syndrome

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<v Speaker 2>being a familiar one, and then they have the choice

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<v Speaker 2>of whether or not to do anything about that or not.

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<v Speaker 2>Nobody's compelled so to the extent that what they're doing

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<v Speaker 2>is it seems that they have a technology that allows

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<v Speaker 2>them to amplify DNA really well, so they really really

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<v Speaker 2>early after conception, they can get a few cells, you

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<v Speaker 2>get a reliable DNA signal from it, and screen for

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<v Speaker 2>a whole bunch of potential diseases. So that I think

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<v Speaker 2>is just a difference in degree of things that are

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<v Speaker 2>already going on. And as someone who you know, I

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<v Speaker 2>got off of training to be a scientist and got

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<v Speaker 2>into journalism because I was a competitive runner and had

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<v Speaker 2>a training partner who died at the end of a

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<v Speaker 2>race from a genetic condition. So the idea that we

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<v Speaker 2>could prevent stuff from that, you know, these genetic mutations

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<v Speaker 2>that we know of that that like rip through families

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<v Speaker 2>like a forest fire. I think I think that's a

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<v Speaker 2>good option for parents to have. But I think there

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<v Speaker 2>are a lot of more difficult questions, right, Like you

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<v Speaker 2>mentioned polygenic traits, so a lot of the monogenic stuff

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<v Speaker 2>is more is easier. In some cases, you see a

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<v Speaker 2>genetic variant, you know it causes some disease, you can select,

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<v Speaker 2>you can take it out right people, you know, if

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<v Speaker 2>someone there may be moral questions about dispensing with the embryos,

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<v Speaker 2>but that's the case for IVF in general anyway. So

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<v Speaker 2>I think the I think the reason that this is

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<v Speaker 2>pretty controversial probably two reasons. One is that it will

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<v Speaker 2>be much you know, it will be wealthy people that

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<v Speaker 2>adopt it, right, So then you have this question of

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<v Speaker 2>are we like bifurcating the world into people who can

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<v Speaker 2>prevent diseases in their children and people who can't because

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<v Speaker 2>they have money. So that's one question, and that just

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<v Speaker 2>feels icky, right when it comes to health, like, no

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<v Speaker 2>nobody feels you don't feel as ichy about wealthy people

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<v Speaker 2>having nicer cars as you do about being able to

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<v Speaker 2>be healthy. But then the kind of third rail, I

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<v Speaker 2>think is when you start selecting for things that are

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<v Speaker 2>more traits than diseases, right, like intelligence or athleticism or

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<v Speaker 2>whatever it is. And in those cases, I think up

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<v Speaker 2>to now it hasn't been that feasible because those things,

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<v Speaker 2>unlike some diseases, most things are not caused by one gene.

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<v Speaker 2>Most things are caused by all sorts of parts of

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<v Speaker 2>your genes are the parts that code for specific proteins.

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<v Speaker 2>And now we know like maybe every single gene and

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<v Speaker 2>a bunch of other parts of your DNA that aren't

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<v Speaker 2>even genes that interact to create like you know, even

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<v Speaker 2>how tall you are, maybe every single gene that has

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<v Speaker 2>some influence in that, each one in a little way.

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<v Speaker 2>And it hasn't been very feasible since we have no

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<v Speaker 2>idea what most genes do to actually select for that stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>But there's now some work where you do this thing

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<v Speaker 2>called polygenic like gene scores. We have a huge database

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<v Speaker 2>a huge number of people, and you've sequenced their genomes

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<v Speaker 2>and you have their health information and you can kind

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<v Speaker 2>of score give them a score based on a large

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<v Speaker 2>number of genes that you may not even know what

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<v Speaker 2>those genes do. But this configuration looks like it might

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<v Speaker 2>change someone's cognitibility a little or their height a little bit,

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<v Speaker 2>or some other trade about them. And that's where you

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<v Speaker 2>get into these things that are not preventing someone from

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<v Speaker 2>dropping dead, but things that would just be nice to

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<v Speaker 2>have or bigger advantages for your child. And so I

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<v Speaker 2>think that that's like the third rail, right. So I

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<v Speaker 2>think the reason that it's so controversial is that people

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<v Speaker 2>see it as like the first domino to fall on

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<v Speaker 2>route to that which is something that is now you know,

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<v Speaker 2>even though I think if you selected for a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of those polygenic traits you'd only make a tiny difference.

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<v Speaker 2>But if you do that generation after generation after generation,

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<v Speaker 2>like that's how breeding works.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, No, for sure, that that is exactly how breeding works.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know, I think you've raised a few really

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<v Speaker 1>interesting points. One that we still like, we really don't

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<v Speaker 1>know how this shit works a lot of the time, right,

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<v Speaker 1>And sometimes you think that you might be selecting for

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<v Speaker 1>something really really good, but you are also like it

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<v Speaker 1>comes with a trade off, right, that you just do

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<v Speaker 1>not know about, right. Sometimes that is that's even true

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<v Speaker 1>of diseases, right, there are some things that make you

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<v Speaker 1>susceptible to one disease but are protective against other things,

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<v Speaker 1>and we don't actually know all of those genetic interactions,

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<v Speaker 1>that's right.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean a classic example, right, is that some of

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<v Speaker 2>the genes that cause sickle cell trade and sickle cell

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<v Speaker 2>anemia are protective against malaria, which is why people of

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<v Speaker 2>like recent West African descent have those that condition a lot,

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<v Speaker 2>even if they now live in the United States, for example.

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<v Speaker 1>Yep, Yeah, that was that was the one that I

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<v Speaker 1>was thinking. That is a very classic one that we

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<v Speaker 1>know but now we know, right, but we but we

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<v Speaker 1>didn't know before, So that I think that that's part

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<v Speaker 1>of it, right, that we a lot of this stuff

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<v Speaker 1>is just incredibly complicated. But I do think that like

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<v Speaker 1>once some is promising, okay, you know what, like I'll

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<v Speaker 1>make your kid smarter and more likely to be a

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<v Speaker 1>star athlete and more likely to be Mozart or whatever

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<v Speaker 1>it is, that there are ethical things on a few levels. One,

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<v Speaker 1>there's like the ethical the ethics of the promise right

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<v Speaker 1>of taking money for something that was something like schizophrenia. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>This was the example I used at the beginning, and

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<v Speaker 1>I said, this is actually a very bad example, because

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<v Speaker 1>schizophrenia is something that is determined by so many different factors.

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<v Speaker 1>We don't know really what causes it, and it's not

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<v Speaker 1>going to manifest for you know, eighteen years, nineteen years,

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<v Speaker 1>twenty years. It usually happens in the late teens, early twenties.

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<v Speaker 1>And so in the meantime, this company can be making

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<v Speaker 1>claims that we're screening for these things, not actually be

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<v Speaker 1>doing it successfully, and we have no way of knowing.

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<v Speaker 1>So there's like the ethics of promising something that you're

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<v Speaker 1>not really sure about. But then also if we can

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<v Speaker 1>like let's assume we can do that. I do think

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<v Speaker 1>that there are concerns both with the haves and have nots,

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<v Speaker 1>but also with the like I'm selecting now for blue

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<v Speaker 1>eyes and blonde hair, and I want someone who's a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit taller. And it's so funny to me, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>there are people who are now quoting Gatika the movie

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<v Speaker 1>as this wonderful thing, like, oh, yeah, we're making Gatica babies.

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<v Speaker 1>So I was like, that movie was not was not positive. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>this kind of technology that was a dystopia, like that

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<v Speaker 1>is something that we absolutely don't want.

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<v Speaker 2>That's like Selman Kahn's book Brave New Words, which is

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<v Speaker 2>obviously referencing Brave New World, which I didn't really think

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<v Speaker 2>of as kind of a good connotation for children in

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<v Speaker 2>their schooling necessarily.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's that's not a book that I have very

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<v Speaker 1>positive associations with in terms of the kind of future

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<v Speaker 1>we want to be living in.

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<v Speaker 2>Totally, And I think, you know to your point, like

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<v Speaker 2>I don't want to compare this company in particular to

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<v Speaker 2>twenty three and me, but like twenty three in me,

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<v Speaker 2>I was since I was writing a book about genetics,

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<v Speaker 2>I signed up for a bunch of direct consumer genetic

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<v Speaker 2>testing companies in the early days before the FDA was

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<v Speaker 2>really paying attention to them, so you could get all

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<v Speaker 2>kinds of information, and like I remember, there'd be say

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<v Speaker 2>it would say, you know, am I allergic to gluten

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<v Speaker 2>or something like that, and it would show some of

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<v Speaker 2>my gene variations compared to the population. It would say, oh, well,

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<v Speaker 2>people with your genotype, are you know your your ODDS

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<v Speaker 2>ratio is like one point oh two or something. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>you're like slightly more So one would be if you

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<v Speaker 2>have the same risk of getting this thing as the

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<v Speaker 2>as a typical person, so you're slightly slightly increased risk.

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<v Speaker 2>And then a month later they'd find some other associated

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<v Speaker 2>gene variant it'd be like, well, now you're actually a

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<v Speaker 2>slightly decreased risk. And then there'd be like three more

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<v Speaker 2>found and they'd be like, you're at elevator risk. He did, right,

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<v Speaker 2>So this is this question of you don't know what

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of stuff is doing. And so it was

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<v Speaker 2>like depended when I checked in if I were at

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<v Speaker 2>increased or decreased risk. And again that was some pretty

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<v Speaker 2>unsophisticated stuff. My like motto for genetics is genetics more

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<v Speaker 2>complicated than we thought, you know, because people used to

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<v Speaker 2>think we'd have like one hundred thousand genes, and then

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<v Speaker 2>it turned out we only have like twenty twenty three thousand,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, and onions have way more DNA than we do.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's kind of disappointing, like we're not that complications.

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<v Speaker 1>Onions are smarter than we are.

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<v Speaker 2>It's no, I mean, who would argue with that. That's

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<v Speaker 2>why so many people don't like them. They're just jealous.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm allergic to them. What does that say about my.

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<v Speaker 2>You're allergic to onions?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'm allergic to raw onions, all raw onions, onions, shallots, scallions, chibes.

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<v Speaker 2>And you shouldn't say stuff like that in public. Your

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<v Speaker 2>kryptonite is now like out on the internet, right, I know,

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<v Speaker 2>I know.

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<v Speaker 1>So this is this is genetic. This is actually something

0:11:38.844 --> 0:11:41.684
<v Speaker 1>that you can look at in your genes. And my

0:11:41.804 --> 0:11:44.244
<v Speaker 1>body doesn't have the enzyme that can break them down.

0:11:44.524 --> 0:11:46.524
<v Speaker 1>So soon as they're cooked, I can eat them, but

0:11:46.644 --> 0:11:49.604
<v Speaker 1>in any raw form I'll become incredibly incredibly sick. So

0:11:49.724 --> 0:11:52.484
<v Speaker 1>this is potentially actually, you know, bringing it back to

0:11:52.644 --> 0:11:55.324
<v Speaker 1>our topic at hand, this is something that Orchid or

0:11:55.444 --> 0:11:59.564
<v Speaker 1>what or whatever company could potentially test for and then

0:11:59.964 --> 0:12:01.964
<v Speaker 1>I might not exist because they'd be like, oh my god,

0:12:02.084 --> 0:12:04.204
<v Speaker 1>onion allergy. No, we can't have this, might not.

0:12:04.324 --> 0:12:06.044
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I think we can all agree that we

0:12:06.044 --> 0:12:08.004
<v Speaker 2>would get rid of that embryo f and the onion allergy,

0:12:08.044 --> 0:12:10.444
<v Speaker 2>for goodness sake, changes the whole conversation.

0:12:10.484 --> 0:12:11.924
<v Speaker 1>If it that it does, it does?

0:12:12.044 --> 0:12:13.724
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but yeah, I mean so I don't want to

0:12:13.724 --> 0:12:15.404
<v Speaker 2>compare them because I think some of the disease stuff,

0:12:15.404 --> 0:12:17.404
<v Speaker 2>I think is just a more powerful version of things

0:12:17.444 --> 0:12:19.364
<v Speaker 2>that people already doing. And and by the way, I mean,

0:12:19.404 --> 0:12:21.804
<v Speaker 2>I guess that's true to some degree for genetic selection.

0:12:21.924 --> 0:12:25.764
<v Speaker 2>Like I wrote in article years ago about height in

0:12:25.884 --> 0:12:30.084
<v Speaker 2>sports for ESPN, and I was like, it turned out

0:12:30.124 --> 0:12:34.164
<v Speaker 2>that in most almost every uh, like sperm donation clinic,

0:12:34.244 --> 0:12:36.084
<v Speaker 2>like I couldn't donate because I'm not tall enough. Right,

0:12:36.124 --> 0:12:37.804
<v Speaker 2>I was a Division one athlete and all this stuff.

0:12:37.804 --> 0:12:38.724
<v Speaker 2>You know, it did well in school.

0:12:39.004 --> 0:12:39.844
<v Speaker 1>Wait are you serious?

0:12:40.004 --> 0:12:42.484
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah absolutely. But so it's like when

0:12:42.564 --> 0:12:44.844
<v Speaker 2>push comes to show if people do do this stuff, right, yeah,

0:12:44.884 --> 0:12:48.124
<v Speaker 2>that's crazy. And so I guess the question is, you know,

0:12:48.164 --> 0:12:51.484
<v Speaker 2>if it becomes widespread though, that's yeah, that's the thing.

0:12:51.644 --> 0:12:53.844
<v Speaker 1>Well, you know, it's it's interesting that you say one

0:12:53.884 --> 0:12:57.644
<v Speaker 1>push comes to show because people do already like if

0:12:58.124 --> 0:13:00.644
<v Speaker 1>you know, so, I don't have kids, so I and

0:13:00.724 --> 0:13:04.764
<v Speaker 1>I've never gone through IVY fertility treatments, et cetera. But

0:13:05.524 --> 0:13:08.404
<v Speaker 1>if I were to do that and I was looking

0:13:08.564 --> 0:13:11.684
<v Speaker 1>for a sperm donor, I could go through binders, you know,

0:13:11.844 --> 0:13:16.404
<v Speaker 1>of backgrounds of people and choose who I would want, right,

0:13:16.844 --> 0:13:19.884
<v Speaker 1>and it would say things like you know, height and

0:13:20.484 --> 0:13:23.324
<v Speaker 1>eye color and all of these things where you went

0:13:23.404 --> 0:13:24.964
<v Speaker 1>to school, you know, So I'd be like, I want

0:13:25.004 --> 0:13:26.964
<v Speaker 1>someone smart, I want someone from the IVY League.

0:13:27.084 --> 0:13:28.964
<v Speaker 2>Did you look at the I'm sure in your college

0:13:29.004 --> 0:13:33.844
<v Speaker 2>newspaper there were advertisements for egg donors like crazy, right, absolutely,

0:13:33.884 --> 0:13:35.604
<v Speaker 2>and it would say like and they would advertise and

0:13:35.804 --> 0:13:38.924
<v Speaker 2>like the Harvard Crimson for a reason, right.

0:13:38.924 --> 0:13:41.924
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Oh no, I was hit up for egg donations

0:13:42.164 --> 0:13:43.004
<v Speaker 1>so many times.

0:13:43.044 --> 0:13:44.924
<v Speaker 2>But they didn't know thri allerg to onions as they

0:13:44.964 --> 0:13:45.764
<v Speaker 2>did not they did not.

0:13:45.884 --> 0:13:48.364
<v Speaker 1>Know maybe the two about No, they don't balance out,

0:13:48.404 --> 0:13:52.764
<v Speaker 1>do they. The onionology is much worse, I understand, damn.

0:13:53.084 --> 0:13:55.404
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, that that is absolutely true, and you could

0:13:55.444 --> 0:13:58.564
<v Speaker 1>have you could make a lot of money right by

0:13:58.644 --> 0:14:01.484
<v Speaker 1>being an egg donor like that sperm donors don't make

0:14:01.524 --> 0:14:04.244
<v Speaker 1>that much. Egg donors make a lot of money.

0:14:04.324 --> 0:14:07.884
<v Speaker 2>I imagine why, but fair unfair pay gap, this pay.

0:14:07.764 --> 0:14:11.404
<v Speaker 1>Gap be addressed, yes, underpay up gender pay up for sure.

0:14:11.764 --> 0:14:15.684
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, so these types of things have been available

0:14:15.844 --> 0:14:18.524
<v Speaker 1>in some way, shape or form for a long time.

0:14:18.924 --> 0:14:21.844
<v Speaker 1>But I do think that you know, the if this

0:14:22.044 --> 0:14:27.164
<v Speaker 1>becomes the norm, then it becomes problematic in many respects.

0:14:27.644 --> 0:14:30.804
<v Speaker 1>And one one other issue that we haven't talked about

0:14:30.924 --> 0:14:35.444
<v Speaker 1>that people have raised is if this becomes the norm, right,

0:14:35.924 --> 0:14:39.004
<v Speaker 1>and then people who don't actually have fertility issues, who

0:14:39.764 --> 0:14:43.964
<v Speaker 1>don't need IVF end up doing this so that they

0:14:44.124 --> 0:14:48.044
<v Speaker 1>are not kind of the same way that people opt

0:14:48.084 --> 0:14:50.244
<v Speaker 1>sometimes to have c sections when they don't need them

0:14:50.324 --> 0:14:53.644
<v Speaker 1>because they don't they don't want to give vaginal birth right.

0:14:54.044 --> 0:14:57.124
<v Speaker 1>If people then make that choice just simply because they

0:14:57.204 --> 0:15:00.124
<v Speaker 1>want that selection, that is also kind of an interesting

0:15:00.204 --> 0:15:06.924
<v Speaker 1>ethical area and has repercussions for a lot of society

0:15:06.964 --> 0:15:09.004
<v Speaker 1>in the sense that so ORCD and we're not picking

0:15:09.044 --> 0:15:10.844
<v Speaker 1>on organ it just happens to be one that is

0:15:11.004 --> 0:15:15.124
<v Speaker 1>like in the news topical for the issue exactly exactly so,

0:15:15.284 --> 0:15:20.324
<v Speaker 1>but or get specifically charges twenty five hundred dollars per embryo.

0:15:21.084 --> 0:15:23.964
<v Speaker 1>Now you would be you need to make multiple embryos,

0:15:24.284 --> 0:15:26.444
<v Speaker 1>and it can become much more expensive if you want

0:15:26.804 --> 0:15:30.084
<v Speaker 1>other testing, et cetera, et cetera. So there is kind

0:15:30.124 --> 0:15:33.804
<v Speaker 1>of another There are more issues that keep piling up here,

0:15:39.844 --> 0:15:41.244
<v Speaker 1>and we'll be back right after this.

0:15:52.724 --> 0:15:56.844
<v Speaker 2>I don't think that it is particularly difficult to envision

0:15:57.324 --> 0:16:02.764
<v Speaker 2>a scenario where IVF becomes like basically the norm, because

0:16:02.884 --> 0:16:05.164
<v Speaker 2>you want to be able to do embryo selection, right.

0:16:05.364 --> 0:16:08.164
<v Speaker 2>I'm not saying that I think there'd ever be an instance,

0:16:08.364 --> 0:16:11.684
<v Speaker 2>well at least in the foreseeable future, that where everybody

0:16:11.884 --> 0:16:13.804
<v Speaker 2>would make that choice, because there are a lot of different,

0:16:13.924 --> 0:16:18.644
<v Speaker 2>obviously ethical considerations. But I don't think it's that hard

0:16:18.964 --> 0:16:20.444
<v Speaker 2>to see that, And I think you could end up

0:16:20.444 --> 0:16:22.484
<v Speaker 2>in a kind of collective trap where because some people

0:16:22.524 --> 0:16:25.604
<v Speaker 2>are doing it, you know, and if it turns into

0:16:26.044 --> 0:16:29.004
<v Speaker 2>real advantage, maybe there's pressure for insurance companies to then

0:16:29.084 --> 0:16:32.524
<v Speaker 2>cover it or or or you know, just for moral

0:16:32.604 --> 0:16:35.964
<v Speaker 2>reasons like it shouldn't be limited access. So I actually

0:16:36.364 --> 0:16:38.164
<v Speaker 2>I don't know which way we're going to go, but

0:16:38.284 --> 0:16:40.644
<v Speaker 2>I don't think it's like sci fi to imagine that

0:16:40.764 --> 0:16:44.244
<v Speaker 2>IVF would become like the standard mode of procreation.

0:16:44.804 --> 0:16:46.764
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and people say, you know, oh, but it's still

0:16:46.764 --> 0:16:50.604
<v Speaker 1>a personal choice. Well, what you said about pressure, kind

0:16:50.644 --> 0:16:52.964
<v Speaker 1>of pure pressure to do it, I think is actually huge.

0:16:53.244 --> 0:16:56.404
<v Speaker 1>So when I just graduated from college, moved to New York,

0:16:56.524 --> 0:16:58.604
<v Speaker 1>wanted to be a writer. It's really hard to make

0:16:58.644 --> 0:17:00.044
<v Speaker 1>a living as a writer. You don't make a lot

0:17:00.084 --> 0:17:02.204
<v Speaker 1>of money. So I tutored. I did a lot of

0:17:02.284 --> 0:17:06.724
<v Speaker 1>private tutoring for very wealthy families, and you know, people

0:17:07.244 --> 0:17:09.964
<v Speaker 1>that becomes something that like, if you don't do right,

0:17:10.084 --> 0:17:13.524
<v Speaker 1>you are disadvantaging your child and you're a bad parent.

0:17:13.644 --> 0:17:16.084
<v Speaker 1>At that point, everyone expects that, like, oh, well, you'll

0:17:16.124 --> 0:17:18.084
<v Speaker 1>get tutoring in all of these you'll get USA TEA prep,

0:17:18.124 --> 0:17:20.204
<v Speaker 1>you'll get this, you'll get that. And if you're one

0:17:20.244 --> 0:17:22.524
<v Speaker 1>of the people who don't get it, then you're like, oh,

0:17:22.844 --> 0:17:25.964
<v Speaker 1>my parents don't care enough right that they're not giving

0:17:26.004 --> 0:17:27.804
<v Speaker 1>me that extra step. Now, by the way, I never

0:17:27.924 --> 0:17:29.924
<v Speaker 1>got any sort of tutoring when I was a kid.

0:17:30.004 --> 0:17:33.284
<v Speaker 1>I didn't get SAT prep or anything like that. But

0:17:33.484 --> 0:17:36.404
<v Speaker 1>it was I was shocked at the fact that some

0:17:36.564 --> 0:17:38.484
<v Speaker 1>of the kids really did need it and others like

0:17:39.124 --> 0:17:42.684
<v Speaker 1>it was just something that I was being paid basically

0:17:42.884 --> 0:17:45.244
<v Speaker 1>to act as a tutor, and to kind of be

0:17:45.404 --> 0:17:48.804
<v Speaker 1>a tutor one technically, I was like, this is a

0:17:48.844 --> 0:17:52.364
<v Speaker 1>smart kid who could do this by themselves, but no,

0:17:52.644 --> 0:17:55.404
<v Speaker 1>because this is something you're required to do. And so

0:17:55.484 --> 0:17:59.044
<v Speaker 1>I think that people might feel pressure to select even

0:17:59.084 --> 0:18:01.364
<v Speaker 1>if we don't know if it works right, just on

0:18:01.524 --> 0:18:04.324
<v Speaker 1>the off chance that it might work, and that this

0:18:04.524 --> 0:18:06.844
<v Speaker 1>sort of stuff might be testable and that you might

0:18:06.924 --> 0:18:10.244
<v Speaker 1>be giving your kids minute advantages. Now, one of the

0:18:10.324 --> 0:18:13.084
<v Speaker 1>themes of risky business is that minute advantages matter, right,

0:18:13.164 --> 0:18:15.684
<v Speaker 1>small percentages matter. As a poker player, you know that

0:18:15.764 --> 0:18:18.324
<v Speaker 1>if you get an extra one percent edge, that's huge.

0:18:18.764 --> 0:18:22.324
<v Speaker 1>So even if we know that things like intelligence, you know,

0:18:22.404 --> 0:18:25.204
<v Speaker 1>things like height, that they're determined by so many different

0:18:25.964 --> 0:18:29.564
<v Speaker 1>variables that nothing is well with few exceptions. Nothing is

0:18:29.724 --> 0:18:34.564
<v Speaker 1>all genetics like one gene. And even if you can

0:18:34.684 --> 0:18:38.764
<v Speaker 1>eke out an extra percentage point, right, an extra tiny

0:18:38.844 --> 0:18:41.484
<v Speaker 1>bit for your kid, that could be huge. And are

0:18:41.564 --> 0:18:45.244
<v Speaker 1>you negligent if you don't make that choice? If you say,

0:18:45.324 --> 0:18:47.444
<v Speaker 1>you know what, I just want to have sex to

0:18:47.604 --> 0:18:48.924
<v Speaker 1>see what happens.

0:18:49.164 --> 0:18:53.444
<v Speaker 2>So quaint, yes, I think, and I think you know,

0:18:53.924 --> 0:18:57.164
<v Speaker 2>like parental neuroses is like a bottomless well of spending, right,

0:18:57.244 --> 0:19:01.004
<v Speaker 2>so there's a lot of business opportunities there. But I

0:19:01.084 --> 0:19:02.724
<v Speaker 2>do think there is now and I wouldn't have said

0:19:02.764 --> 0:19:05.124
<v Speaker 2>this not that long ago, that there's real reason to

0:19:05.204 --> 0:19:07.724
<v Speaker 2>believe that some of these traits could be select could

0:19:07.764 --> 0:19:11.924
<v Speaker 2>be accurately select for in a small way. Again, that

0:19:12.204 --> 0:19:15.564
<v Speaker 2>doesn't say anything about are you accidentally then getting something

0:19:15.604 --> 0:19:18.484
<v Speaker 2>you don't want? Right, There's a lot of unknowns. But

0:19:18.604 --> 0:19:20.844
<v Speaker 2>I think for the first time some of these other

0:19:21.404 --> 0:19:24.844
<v Speaker 2>non disease traits, we could load the dice a little

0:19:24.884 --> 0:19:26.964
<v Speaker 2>a little bit, a little bit, and then over multiple

0:19:27.004 --> 0:19:29.724
<v Speaker 2>generations that could become more and more and more. But again,

0:19:29.764 --> 0:19:32.684
<v Speaker 2>I think those are separate from the issue of making

0:19:32.844 --> 0:19:38.764
<v Speaker 2>the screening for disease better, much earlier, and more extensives.

0:19:38.804 --> 0:19:42.004
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no, I think that just to put this out there,

0:19:42.044 --> 0:19:44.244
<v Speaker 1>I think that the screening for disease is great, you know,

0:19:44.324 --> 0:19:46.884
<v Speaker 1>I think that that is. I think that's a very

0:19:46.924 --> 0:19:47.364
<v Speaker 1>good thing.

0:19:48.204 --> 0:19:50.444
<v Speaker 2>I think that, you know, being I don't know that

0:19:50.484 --> 0:19:52.644
<v Speaker 2>everyone would agree with that, right because maybe you're still

0:19:52.684 --> 0:19:53.604
<v Speaker 2>like selecting for.

0:19:54.484 --> 0:19:57.204
<v Speaker 1>Oh for sure, I think that's less controversial. I think

0:19:57.324 --> 0:19:59.724
<v Speaker 1>I think that a lot of people won't agree with that, yeah,

0:19:59.804 --> 0:20:01.804
<v Speaker 1>because they don't think you should be able to select

0:20:01.884 --> 0:20:05.604
<v Speaker 1>for anything. But you know, I'm an Ashkanazi Jew. Ashkinazi

0:20:05.724 --> 0:20:08.604
<v Speaker 1>Jews have predilections you know, for a lot of different

0:20:08.644 --> 0:20:13.284
<v Speaker 1>genetic condition and you know, if we can reduce tays acts, right,

0:20:13.324 --> 0:20:16.204
<v Speaker 1>if we can reduce Huntington's, if we can reduce the

0:20:16.564 --> 0:20:20.964
<v Speaker 1>risk of some of these really devastating conditions, yeah, that

0:20:21.004 --> 0:20:26.204
<v Speaker 1>would be amazing, right, I think, I think personally, But

0:20:26.884 --> 0:20:32.044
<v Speaker 1>you know, related to this, we also do have emerging

0:20:32.124 --> 0:20:36.484
<v Speaker 1>technologies Crisper, you know, that can edit right, so that

0:20:37.004 --> 0:20:40.684
<v Speaker 1>it's slightly different, right, you're not choosing embryos. But we

0:20:40.844 --> 0:20:43.804
<v Speaker 1>have technology that is becoming better and better where we

0:20:43.884 --> 0:20:48.684
<v Speaker 1>can actually go into the genome and say, okay, snip, snip,

0:20:48.804 --> 0:20:52.044
<v Speaker 1>let's let's try to let's try to fix this, and

0:20:52.204 --> 0:20:54.364
<v Speaker 1>let's try to not literally, by the way, people, you

0:20:54.404 --> 0:20:55.804
<v Speaker 1>don't actually go in with scissors.

0:20:56.564 --> 0:20:58.524
<v Speaker 2>It's not that different though. That's a that's a pretty

0:20:58.524 --> 0:20:59.084
<v Speaker 2>good analogy.

0:21:00.844 --> 0:21:05.884
<v Speaker 1>But so we have technologies like that that don't require IBF.

0:21:06.324 --> 0:21:09.324
<v Speaker 1>You know, it's it's interesting, like it's very very complicated

0:21:09.924 --> 0:21:12.804
<v Speaker 1>because there are certain things about this that I think

0:21:12.804 --> 0:21:15.884
<v Speaker 1>are amazing. There are certain things that really give me pause,

0:21:16.324 --> 0:21:18.284
<v Speaker 1>and then there are things I actually am kind of

0:21:18.364 --> 0:21:21.244
<v Speaker 1>scared of the unknowns. And I know that, yes, we

0:21:21.284 --> 0:21:23.724
<v Speaker 1>shouldn't be afraid of a technology because we don't know

0:21:23.804 --> 0:21:26.644
<v Speaker 1>the side effect. But you know, there are certain things

0:21:26.804 --> 0:21:31.444
<v Speaker 1>like maybe when you are trying to kind of control

0:21:31.644 --> 0:21:35.924
<v Speaker 1>for the schizophrenia cluster genes, you're also getting rid of

0:21:36.244 --> 0:21:40.204
<v Speaker 1>artistic talent. Just because I say that as like a

0:21:40.284 --> 0:21:43.924
<v Speaker 1>cliche thing that often goes together, but like maybe we're

0:21:43.964 --> 0:21:48.204
<v Speaker 1>actually getting rid of some good things and some natural

0:21:48.324 --> 0:21:51.644
<v Speaker 1>variation mutations that we have no idea what they do,

0:21:51.884 --> 0:21:54.404
<v Speaker 1>and they might have existed in this embryo and we

0:21:54.564 --> 0:21:55.244
<v Speaker 1>just will never know.

0:21:55.604 --> 0:21:57.724
<v Speaker 2>That's an interesting point on two counts. One. I mean,

0:21:59.044 --> 0:22:02.124
<v Speaker 2>we know there are things like to give a sort

0:22:02.124 --> 0:22:06.244
<v Speaker 2>of extreme example, years ago, this was with earlier forms

0:22:06.244 --> 0:22:10.444
<v Speaker 2>of gene therapy, but there were some tests on boys

0:22:10.484 --> 0:22:13.204
<v Speaker 2>with what I think it's called X linked combined immuno

0:22:13.284 --> 0:22:16.444
<v Speaker 2>deficiency syndrome. People commonly know it as bubble boy syndrome

0:22:16.724 --> 0:22:20.484
<v Speaker 2>because the boy has so it's linked to an X chromosome,

0:22:21.004 --> 0:22:24.164
<v Speaker 2>and because boys only have one, there's not another copy

0:22:24.204 --> 0:22:27.244
<v Speaker 2>to correct it. So some X link diseases are in

0:22:27.364 --> 0:22:30.644
<v Speaker 2>boys and so bubble boy syndrome, meaning they basically have

0:22:30.764 --> 0:22:33.444
<v Speaker 2>no immune system, so they can't go anywhere. They have

0:22:33.484 --> 0:22:36.164
<v Speaker 2>to like live in a bubble. And the gene therapy

0:22:37.324 --> 0:22:39.484
<v Speaker 2>this was a more rudimentary form. It wasn't crisper like

0:22:39.604 --> 0:22:42.444
<v Speaker 2>gene editing, but using a gene created in the lab

0:22:42.484 --> 0:22:45.444
<v Speaker 2>and it gets like shuttled into the cells with a

0:22:45.724 --> 0:22:51.524
<v Speaker 2>deactivated virus. Basically it cured some of them, which is incredible, right,

0:22:51.644 --> 0:22:54.204
<v Speaker 2>but then like a number of them got leukemia. So

0:22:54.284 --> 0:22:57.164
<v Speaker 2>there was like this incredible cure but also this incredibly

0:22:57.204 --> 0:23:00.324
<v Speaker 2>devastating effect, and so you don't know, right, some of

0:23:00.404 --> 0:23:02.564
<v Speaker 2>the stuff that's going on. And to your point about

0:23:04.564 --> 0:23:08.204
<v Speaker 2>that example you mentioned, like schizophrenia and artistic talent, I

0:23:08.244 --> 0:23:11.124
<v Speaker 2>think there have been some studies showing that you don't

0:23:11.164 --> 0:23:15.084
<v Speaker 2>want mental illness to be creative, right, because that incapacitates

0:23:15.084 --> 0:23:17.964
<v Speaker 2>you in all these ways, But that that tends to

0:23:18.044 --> 0:23:21.804
<v Speaker 2>be more in the family of people who are extremely creative.

0:23:21.844 --> 0:23:23.844
<v Speaker 2>And it's like, if there's all these genes that have

0:23:23.924 --> 0:23:25.924
<v Speaker 2>a small effect, some people will have too many of

0:23:25.964 --> 0:23:28.044
<v Speaker 2>them and they'll have mental illness. And some people have

0:23:28.084 --> 0:23:29.444
<v Speaker 2>a bunch of them that make you kind of an

0:23:29.524 --> 0:23:32.564
<v Speaker 2>unusual thinker, but not so many that you're incapacitated. I

0:23:32.604 --> 0:23:35.444
<v Speaker 2>remember some years ago after I wrote about genetics, a

0:23:35.884 --> 0:23:39.844
<v Speaker 2>like a psychiatrist who served Harvard students coming to me

0:23:39.884 --> 0:23:42.324
<v Speaker 2>and saying, like, they definitely are overrepresented, and all these

0:23:42.364 --> 0:23:46.444
<v Speaker 2>conditions that are like borderline mental illness. You know, so

0:23:46.604 --> 0:23:48.244
<v Speaker 2>like you and your peers, you know, it's not just

0:23:48.324 --> 0:23:52.124
<v Speaker 2>your n allergies, like you're weird in other ways that

0:23:52.244 --> 0:23:53.524
<v Speaker 2>might also be useful.

0:23:54.164 --> 0:23:57.964
<v Speaker 1>This also happens obviously with like new drugs, like for instance,

0:23:58.124 --> 0:24:00.244
<v Speaker 1>you were saying the bubble boy, they end up dying

0:24:00.284 --> 0:24:02.804
<v Speaker 1>of leukemia. We know that there were some drugs that

0:24:02.844 --> 0:24:05.844
<v Speaker 1>showed an amazing promise right and then ended up like

0:24:06.364 --> 0:24:10.044
<v Speaker 1>devastating your liver and kidneys and you die or something

0:24:10.164 --> 0:24:14.044
<v Speaker 1>like that, where like oops, we had no idea, or

0:24:14.244 --> 0:24:17.844
<v Speaker 1>you know, causes horrific birth defects or whatever it is.

0:24:18.124 --> 0:24:22.964
<v Speaker 1>Those types of horrible moments, unfortunately, are all too common

0:24:23.084 --> 0:24:27.564
<v Speaker 1>in medical history. But I think the difference there is

0:24:27.644 --> 0:24:31.044
<v Speaker 1>you were trying to cure a person who was incredibly sick,

0:24:31.684 --> 0:24:35.284
<v Speaker 1>and here you have someone who's healthy and potentially in

0:24:35.324 --> 0:24:38.524
<v Speaker 1>the future someone who is perfectly fertile, doesn't need IVF,

0:24:38.604 --> 0:24:40.924
<v Speaker 1>doesn't need any of this, and is choosing to do

0:24:41.124 --> 0:24:46.124
<v Speaker 1>something which might then introduce these sorts of yeah, downstream effects.

0:24:46.204 --> 0:24:49.164
<v Speaker 2>That's a whole you know, like a saying among doctors.

0:24:49.204 --> 0:24:51.724
<v Speaker 2>It's like, it's very hard to make an asymptomatic patient better.

0:24:53.244 --> 0:24:55.084
<v Speaker 2>You know, there are cases where that's true, where you

0:24:55.284 --> 0:24:57.364
<v Speaker 2>catch stuff ahead of time, but as a general rule,

0:24:58.084 --> 0:25:03.084
<v Speaker 2>if someone doesn't need medical intervention, it's usually better to

0:25:03.164 --> 0:25:06.164
<v Speaker 2>avoid medical intervention. So I think you're hitting on an

0:25:06.164 --> 0:25:08.364
<v Speaker 2>important point. I mean, I wonder what do you think,

0:25:09.484 --> 0:25:11.604
<v Speaker 2>Let's say, because we've talked about how there may be

0:25:11.724 --> 0:25:13.804
<v Speaker 2>sort of off target effects that you don't want when

0:25:13.844 --> 0:25:15.404
<v Speaker 2>you try some of this stuff, Let's say we had

0:25:15.524 --> 0:25:17.404
<v Speaker 2>we get it all figured out. So I mean, I

0:25:17.404 --> 0:25:18.804
<v Speaker 2>don't think we're ever going to get it all figured out,

0:25:18.804 --> 0:25:21.684
<v Speaker 2>because this is this complex interplay between all these environmental

0:25:21.804 --> 0:25:25.924
<v Speaker 2>stimulus and genetics. So there's no like to the extent

0:25:26.004 --> 0:25:27.404
<v Speaker 2>that no two lives are the same. We're not going

0:25:27.444 --> 0:25:31.924
<v Speaker 2>to have it all figured out. But theoretically if we did,

0:25:32.044 --> 0:25:33.844
<v Speaker 2>and then it's just a matter of selecting for stuff

0:25:33.884 --> 0:25:35.444
<v Speaker 2>you want the way that you would with like a

0:25:35.564 --> 0:25:38.764
<v Speaker 2>dog breed what then Like then it's like just kind

0:25:38.804 --> 0:25:40.884
<v Speaker 2>of how do we want society to be a question? Right?

0:25:40.964 --> 0:25:43.964
<v Speaker 1>And that's that's that is quite dystopian if we also

0:25:44.124 --> 0:25:47.924
<v Speaker 1>consider that it might be if we pair that with

0:25:48.044 --> 0:25:49.884
<v Speaker 1>what you said at the beginning, right, the divide between

0:25:49.924 --> 0:25:52.324
<v Speaker 1>the haves and have nots, where some people can afford

0:25:52.364 --> 0:25:55.564
<v Speaker 1>this state of the art technology and others can't, and

0:25:55.724 --> 0:25:58.284
<v Speaker 1>so we have a very specific type of person selecting

0:25:58.444 --> 0:26:03.324
<v Speaker 1>for what they want. And yeah, to me, like that

0:26:03.484 --> 0:26:06.764
<v Speaker 1>is dystopian, and that's kind of that's kind of frightening

0:26:06.884 --> 0:26:10.684
<v Speaker 1>because we know from psychology that people will, you know,

0:26:10.804 --> 0:26:13.964
<v Speaker 1>select people who are like them quite often, right, we

0:26:14.404 --> 0:26:20.164
<v Speaker 1>like people who look like us, and it becomes eugenics

0:26:20.244 --> 0:26:23.524
<v Speaker 1>is a bad word for a reason, but it becomes

0:26:23.844 --> 0:26:27.684
<v Speaker 1>very eugenics, like where you are saying, you know, these

0:26:27.764 --> 0:26:32.284
<v Speaker 1>traits are inherently superior. But even I'm actually curious from

0:26:32.404 --> 0:26:35.004
<v Speaker 1>your standpoint of someone who was a Division one athlete

0:26:35.244 --> 0:26:39.444
<v Speaker 1>who knows a lot about sports, Like even with you know,

0:26:39.724 --> 0:26:45.324
<v Speaker 1>sports genes and things that we know are really cool mutations,

0:26:45.844 --> 0:26:48.484
<v Speaker 1>they're sometimes like you will find an athlete who doesn't

0:26:48.484 --> 0:26:50.484
<v Speaker 1>look like other athletes who ends up being the best

0:26:50.644 --> 0:26:52.404
<v Speaker 1>or who ends up discovering kind of a new way

0:26:52.444 --> 0:26:56.284
<v Speaker 1>of doing something that absolutely changes a sport or or

0:26:56.284 --> 0:27:01.804
<v Speaker 1>a way of a way of competing. And are we also,

0:27:01.924 --> 0:27:07.564
<v Speaker 1>like when we select for kind of this one ideal

0:27:08.364 --> 0:27:13.084
<v Speaker 1>that whoever has in their mind, are we potentially homogenizing

0:27:13.164 --> 0:27:16.164
<v Speaker 1>society to the point where that's going Those types of

0:27:16.484 --> 0:27:20.044
<v Speaker 1>breakthroughs are actually going to become quite rare if they

0:27:20.124 --> 0:27:20.684
<v Speaker 1>happen at all.

0:27:21.164 --> 0:27:26.124
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean variation is necessary for both natural selection

0:27:26.204 --> 0:27:28.284
<v Speaker 2>to happen, but I think also artificial selection or whatever

0:27:28.284 --> 0:27:30.084
<v Speaker 2>you want to call it. And I mean maybe artificial

0:27:30.124 --> 0:27:34.684
<v Speaker 2>selection is not the right word, but for new stuff,

0:27:35.084 --> 0:27:36.924
<v Speaker 2>like new ideas and all those things. So I think

0:27:36.964 --> 0:27:39.884
<v Speaker 2>that's way way down the road because there's a ton

0:27:39.924 --> 0:27:43.524
<v Speaker 2>of variation. But if we really start going down this path,

0:27:43.884 --> 0:27:45.844
<v Speaker 2>then I think those are things to think about way

0:27:45.884 --> 0:27:48.844
<v Speaker 2>ahead of time. And you can imagine, you know, I

0:27:48.844 --> 0:27:53.804
<v Speaker 2>think it's already like troubling enough some of the ideals

0:27:53.844 --> 0:27:56.644
<v Speaker 2>of perfection that you have on Instagram or whatever. And

0:27:56.764 --> 0:27:59.764
<v Speaker 2>so if that's then being applied to like all the genomes,

0:28:00.364 --> 0:28:03.404
<v Speaker 2>I think you have started asking questions of like maybe

0:28:03.444 --> 0:28:06.364
<v Speaker 2>there are things where we could be better at certain

0:28:06.404 --> 0:28:08.284
<v Speaker 2>things we know about, but how do we want life

0:28:08.364 --> 0:28:10.324
<v Speaker 2>to be? You know, I think that's an important question

0:28:10.404 --> 0:28:14.364
<v Speaker 2>with technology that should be asked, Like I'm I'm I

0:28:14.564 --> 0:28:17.644
<v Speaker 2>like innovation. I think invention technology is like really cool.

0:28:17.684 --> 0:28:20.124
<v Speaker 2>You know. I started playing with AI immediately as soon

0:28:20.164 --> 0:28:23.484
<v Speaker 2>as I could. At the same time, I don't think,

0:28:23.884 --> 0:28:26.644
<v Speaker 2>you know, we should always just forge a head on

0:28:26.724 --> 0:28:29.564
<v Speaker 2>everything without asking like, how do we want life to be?

0:28:29.804 --> 0:28:30.884
<v Speaker 2>An unfold? Right?

0:28:31.524 --> 0:28:35.124
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think that's really important, And I will just

0:28:35.204 --> 0:28:40.004
<v Speaker 1>add one less thing to that, which is that we're

0:28:40.124 --> 0:28:45.364
<v Speaker 1>also ignoring a potentially huge mental health crisis if this

0:28:45.764 --> 0:28:47.844
<v Speaker 1>ends up happening. You know, how do we want life

0:28:47.884 --> 0:28:50.244
<v Speaker 1>to be? Well, what happens if you know, you like

0:28:50.404 --> 0:28:53.644
<v Speaker 1>you're a designer baby that your parents selected these certain

0:28:53.684 --> 0:28:56.124
<v Speaker 1>things for and you feel like you would have liked

0:28:56.164 --> 0:28:58.844
<v Speaker 1>to be something else, You feel like things were chosen

0:28:58.964 --> 0:29:02.004
<v Speaker 1>for you. I mean, I think that, you know, from

0:29:02.044 --> 0:29:05.284
<v Speaker 1>a psychology standpoint, there might be a lot of issues

0:29:05.364 --> 0:29:07.364
<v Speaker 1>with that, and we might have kind of a crisis

0:29:07.644 --> 0:29:11.764
<v Speaker 1>in the generations of children who are subjected to this. So, yeah,

0:29:11.844 --> 0:29:13.964
<v Speaker 1>a lot of things to think about. This is a

0:29:14.084 --> 0:29:19.044
<v Speaker 1>really really complicated thing. You know, it's a really morally, ethically, medically,

0:29:19.284 --> 0:29:22.684
<v Speaker 1>just every single level complicated topic, and I think something

0:29:22.724 --> 0:29:24.604
<v Speaker 1>that people should really give a lot of thought to

0:29:25.204 --> 0:29:28.644
<v Speaker 1>for the long term, because you know, as with much

0:29:28.764 --> 0:29:31.284
<v Speaker 1>so much technology, just because we can doesn't mean we

0:29:31.364 --> 0:29:32.204
<v Speaker 1>should know and.

0:29:32.964 --> 0:29:35.164
<v Speaker 2>Like people, I think it's been pretty good. The discussion

0:29:35.164 --> 0:29:38.284
<v Speaker 2>about AI has been vibrant, and the potential positives and

0:29:38.364 --> 0:29:40.844
<v Speaker 2>the potential negatives, the ethical concerns, et cetera, what we

0:29:40.924 --> 0:29:43.764
<v Speaker 2>want the future to look like. Again, I think genetic

0:29:43.804 --> 0:29:46.724
<v Speaker 2>technology in the long term has a potentially large, much

0:29:46.804 --> 0:29:50.484
<v Speaker 2>larger impact than AI does on fundamental aspects of our life.

0:29:50.844 --> 0:29:53.244
<v Speaker 2>And those conversations have been kind of one note. You know,

0:29:53.324 --> 0:29:55.204
<v Speaker 2>it's every once in a while something like orchid pops

0:29:55.284 --> 0:29:58.604
<v Speaker 2>up and there's a discussion, But I don't think it's

0:29:58.684 --> 0:30:02.724
<v Speaker 2>been diverse and constant to the extent that it has

0:30:03.164 --> 0:30:05.764
<v Speaker 2>with AI, even though I think it's at least equally

0:30:05.764 --> 0:30:06.284
<v Speaker 2>as important.

0:30:06.804 --> 0:30:10.444
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think that this is very important note of

0:30:10.684 --> 0:30:14.044
<v Speaker 1>caution and also call to action, that these conversations are

0:30:14.084 --> 0:30:21.684
<v Speaker 1>important and need to be had. Let's take a quick

0:30:21.764 --> 0:30:25.404
<v Speaker 1>break and then we'll talk about a pet psychtopic for

0:30:25.804 --> 0:30:29.524
<v Speaker 1>me and David nominative determinism.

0:30:29.164 --> 0:30:31.804
<v Speaker 2>A much more deterministic aspect of your life than genetics.

0:30:39.604 --> 0:30:42.564
<v Speaker 1>David, for a number of years you and I have

0:30:42.764 --> 0:30:48.444
<v Speaker 1>been exchanging text messages about names that we come up with,

0:30:49.324 --> 0:30:51.604
<v Speaker 1>that we see in the news, and that make us

0:30:51.644 --> 0:30:57.724
<v Speaker 1>both giggle because they are examples of nominative determinism, which

0:30:57.804 --> 0:31:02.004
<v Speaker 1>is a psychology concept which means that your name doesn't

0:31:02.124 --> 0:31:06.484
<v Speaker 1>just matter, but is in some ways deterministic. It determines

0:31:07.684 --> 0:31:12.364
<v Speaker 1>your career path or over jeans, move over jeans. It's

0:31:12.444 --> 0:31:15.284
<v Speaker 1>not the genes that matter, it's the name that matters.

0:31:15.764 --> 0:31:19.124
<v Speaker 1>And you know, the most simplistic example is something like

0:31:19.284 --> 0:31:22.284
<v Speaker 1>someone with the last name Baker is going to go

0:31:22.564 --> 0:31:26.084
<v Speaker 1>on to become a Baker. And this would be, you know,

0:31:26.204 --> 0:31:31.364
<v Speaker 1>a hilarious joke if it didn't happen so incredibly often.

0:31:32.244 --> 0:31:34.324
<v Speaker 1>And some people take it a little bit further, like

0:31:34.404 --> 0:31:37.164
<v Speaker 1>they'll say, oh, well, it's just the first letter that matters.

0:31:37.284 --> 0:31:39.284
<v Speaker 1>So like, if your name is lindsay, you are more

0:31:39.404 --> 0:31:42.084
<v Speaker 1>likely to become a lawyer. I'm like, yeah, no, I

0:31:42.124 --> 0:31:45.564
<v Speaker 1>don't think so. But so there are people who take

0:31:45.604 --> 0:31:48.804
<v Speaker 1>it to an extreme, but basically the idea is your

0:31:48.924 --> 0:31:50.364
<v Speaker 1>name matters more than you think.

0:31:50.884 --> 0:31:53.044
<v Speaker 2>Yes, and so people have funny names that associate with

0:31:53.044 --> 0:31:55.084
<v Speaker 2>their jobs, and I think the idea well, before we

0:31:55.124 --> 0:31:56.444
<v Speaker 2>get to the idea of if there's any like real

0:31:56.484 --> 0:31:58.924
<v Speaker 2>psychology behind this, I have a quiz for you, if

0:31:58.964 --> 0:32:01.204
<v Speaker 2>you're willing to take it. All right, I went back

0:32:01.244 --> 0:32:04.724
<v Speaker 2>through some old of my favorites. I don't think I've

0:32:04.804 --> 0:32:07.484
<v Speaker 2>told you these ones. You may not because you're an enthusiast,

0:32:07.524 --> 0:32:10.484
<v Speaker 2>a collector, a connoisseer, a collector of names as I am. I.

0:32:11.484 --> 0:32:12.924
<v Speaker 2>So I'm gonna give you the name, and you're gonna

0:32:12.924 --> 0:32:16.164
<v Speaker 2>tell me their job. Okay, Okay, okay. Burt Beverage.

0:32:17.524 --> 0:32:20.564
<v Speaker 1>He works in the beverage industry.

0:32:20.204 --> 0:32:24.364
<v Speaker 2>Created Tito's vodka. Oh god, yeah, big okay, Tito's.

0:32:24.484 --> 0:32:26.724
<v Speaker 1>Tito's creator's last name is Beverage.

0:32:26.764 --> 0:32:29.924
<v Speaker 2>Burt Beverage, I did not know. I tell you. Okay,

0:32:30.124 --> 0:32:33.324
<v Speaker 2>I've got some more for you. Okay, Keith Weed. This

0:32:33.404 --> 0:32:34.084
<v Speaker 2>one has a bonus.

0:32:34.204 --> 0:32:39.124
<v Speaker 1>Keith Weed does Keith Weed work in the pot business.

0:32:39.324 --> 0:32:43.604
<v Speaker 2>Head of the Royal Horticultural Society. Mother's maiden name Hedges.

0:32:44.724 --> 0:32:48.404
<v Speaker 1>Oh no, double layer, double So I went the wrong

0:32:48.484 --> 0:32:49.084
<v Speaker 1>kind of weed.

0:32:49.164 --> 0:32:51.284
<v Speaker 2>But this one, you know you were in the in

0:32:51.364 --> 0:32:53.244
<v Speaker 2>the I was, yeah, Joshua, but.

0:32:56.604 --> 0:32:59.004
<v Speaker 1>Is he is he? Is he a fitness trainer?

0:33:00.244 --> 0:33:04.124
<v Speaker 2>I love that you guessed that gastro enterologist? But finished

0:33:05.484 --> 0:33:15.564
<v Speaker 2>sue you lawyer, Yes, correct, probably Lieutenant Les McBurney. We

0:33:15.724 --> 0:33:16.324
<v Speaker 2>may have done this.

0:33:18.604 --> 0:33:20.564
<v Speaker 1>Yes, Les McBurnie is a firefighter.

0:33:20.644 --> 0:33:23.524
<v Speaker 2>That one you and I? Okay, okay, last one. This

0:33:23.604 --> 0:33:28.044
<v Speaker 2>one kind of up your alley. Walter Russell Brain otherwise

0:33:28.084 --> 0:33:32.164
<v Speaker 2>known as the Right Honorable Lord Brain. Is he a psychologist,

0:33:32.284 --> 0:33:35.404
<v Speaker 2>the world famous neurologist. Close enough score for that one.

0:33:35.764 --> 0:33:36.644
<v Speaker 2>Those are some good ones.

0:33:37.804 --> 0:33:41.044
<v Speaker 1>Those are some good ones. One of my favorites that

0:33:42.324 --> 0:33:44.364
<v Speaker 1>I actually, I mean, I think you said that it

0:33:44.484 --> 0:33:46.604
<v Speaker 1>was a hoax and I had to look up the

0:33:46.684 --> 0:33:51.164
<v Speaker 1>whole biography to make sure it wasn't. Nick Burns Cox

0:33:54.044 --> 0:33:58.684
<v Speaker 1>he is a urologist, and he invented something that is

0:33:58.804 --> 0:34:00.844
<v Speaker 1>called the pee in pot.

0:34:02.084 --> 0:34:05.124
<v Speaker 2>That is, that's like a little too on point right.

0:34:05.444 --> 0:34:07.724
<v Speaker 2>We had a doctor doctor recently, We did have.

0:34:07.804 --> 0:34:10.964
<v Speaker 1>A doctor doctor, and I thought that that was very funny.

0:34:11.884 --> 0:34:15.164
<v Speaker 1>But the question is, so, now that we've entertained you

0:34:15.284 --> 0:34:18.804
<v Speaker 1>with some of our famous, famously funny names, the question

0:34:19.004 --> 0:34:23.644
<v Speaker 1>is is there actually anything to this? And so the

0:34:23.724 --> 0:34:25.844
<v Speaker 1>science on it is all over the place, Like, this

0:34:26.004 --> 0:34:31.044
<v Speaker 1>is a hard thing to study because even though there

0:34:31.084 --> 0:34:34.004
<v Speaker 1>are these hilarious examples, like there are billions of people

0:34:34.084 --> 0:34:34.284
<v Speaker 1>in the.

0:34:34.364 --> 0:34:37.964
<v Speaker 2>World, right, what's the chances there wouldn't be a doctor doctor?

0:34:38.444 --> 0:34:40.724
<v Speaker 1>And what's the chance that there wouldn't be a urologist

0:34:40.764 --> 0:34:42.124
<v Speaker 1>whose last name was burns Cox?

0:34:42.444 --> 0:34:43.804
<v Speaker 2>That I think the chances are very high that that

0:34:43.844 --> 0:34:46.644
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't happen. That's a I'm glad we live in this

0:34:46.764 --> 0:34:49.164
<v Speaker 2>one of the multiverse where we got doctor burns Cox.

0:34:50.524 --> 0:34:54.804
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, and we also have base rate stuff, so

0:34:54.964 --> 0:34:56.884
<v Speaker 1>like if your last name is Baker, like and you're

0:34:57.204 --> 0:34:59.444
<v Speaker 1>happened to be in the baking industry, like, come on,

0:34:59.604 --> 0:35:03.444
<v Speaker 1>how many bakers are there? Like? So there are lots

0:35:03.484 --> 0:35:06.044
<v Speaker 1>of confounding factors, and it's not like people have looked

0:35:06.084 --> 0:35:10.084
<v Speaker 1>at lists of every single profession, every and name in

0:35:10.124 --> 0:35:14.284
<v Speaker 1>the world and tried to do any sort of comprehensive studies.

0:35:14.364 --> 0:35:16.964
<v Speaker 1>So all of the data I could find, some find

0:35:17.004 --> 0:35:20.564
<v Speaker 1>evidence of it, some don't. I think it's a wash, right, Like,

0:35:20.804 --> 0:35:24.084
<v Speaker 1>I don't think that there's hugely strong evidence for it.

0:35:24.404 --> 0:35:26.804
<v Speaker 2>But on the other hand, it being that these people

0:35:26.844 --> 0:35:28.724
<v Speaker 2>are actually more likely to go into professions.

0:35:28.804 --> 0:35:33.324
<v Speaker 1>Yea, yea, exactly exactly. But on the other hand, there

0:35:34.164 --> 0:35:38.164
<v Speaker 1>are some reasons to believe that this would be a thing. So,

0:35:38.444 --> 0:35:41.524
<v Speaker 1>for instance, if your last name is Baker, like, chances

0:35:41.604 --> 0:35:44.764
<v Speaker 1>are you are descended from a family of bakers, because

0:35:45.244 --> 0:35:46.924
<v Speaker 1>you know, there is and this is true not just

0:35:47.004 --> 0:35:50.404
<v Speaker 1>in English, so in the Russian language, this is true

0:35:50.404 --> 0:35:52.884
<v Speaker 1>of last names. And I know in a lot of

0:35:52.924 --> 0:35:57.964
<v Speaker 1>different cultures this is true. Names were given to families

0:35:58.084 --> 0:36:03.524
<v Speaker 1>based on the family's professionals directs exactly. So Carpenter, you know,

0:36:03.804 --> 0:36:07.884
<v Speaker 1>was a family of carpenters. And it's really interesting because

0:36:07.884 --> 0:36:11.244
<v Speaker 1>we were just you know, we're talking about genetics, and

0:36:11.444 --> 0:36:15.204
<v Speaker 1>so if you are in a family that wasn't a

0:36:15.324 --> 0:36:19.684
<v Speaker 1>certain kind of craft, so to speak, then you might

0:36:19.764 --> 0:36:23.124
<v Speaker 1>have a genetic predisposition for it, a talent for it,

0:36:23.164 --> 0:36:26.564
<v Speaker 1>et cetera, et cetera. So then exactly it's reverse causality

0:36:26.644 --> 0:36:28.884
<v Speaker 1>that you were named this. You still have a family

0:36:29.004 --> 0:36:32.564
<v Speaker 1>name because it's something that your family has been good

0:36:32.564 --> 0:36:33.844
<v Speaker 1>at for multiple generations.

0:36:34.164 --> 0:36:36.004
<v Speaker 2>And what do you think about I don't know, you know,

0:36:36.044 --> 0:36:39.484
<v Speaker 2>I've never really done a deep dive in this literature

0:36:39.564 --> 0:36:41.804
<v Speaker 2>because I just desperately want it to be true, and.

0:36:42.084 --> 0:36:44.764
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know that's that's fair. I don't think you should.

0:36:45.244 --> 0:36:47.804
<v Speaker 2>But what do you think about the idea? I mean,

0:36:48.004 --> 0:36:49.484
<v Speaker 2>I seem to recall when I read a little bit

0:36:49.484 --> 0:36:55.044
<v Speaker 2>about it, that there was the theory was that people

0:36:55.084 --> 0:36:57.324
<v Speaker 2>are like one, just more aware of jobs that might

0:36:57.324 --> 0:36:59.084
<v Speaker 2>be related to their name or people tell them like,

0:36:59.164 --> 0:37:01.404
<v Speaker 2>oh you should be you know sue you oh you

0:37:01.444 --> 0:37:04.884
<v Speaker 2>should be a lawyer, or they're like more positively disposed

0:37:05.084 --> 0:37:07.404
<v Speaker 2>to those things because kind of people like things with

0:37:07.444 --> 0:37:09.644
<v Speaker 2>their names on them, right, Like that's why like puts

0:37:09.684 --> 0:37:11.404
<v Speaker 2>people's names on a body, Like I see my name,

0:37:11.444 --> 0:37:13.004
<v Speaker 2>I like it. And then maybe they have like a

0:37:13.044 --> 0:37:17.044
<v Speaker 2>little more positive association with some of those professions if

0:37:17.084 --> 0:37:19.244
<v Speaker 2>it feels like related to their name, like they find

0:37:19.284 --> 0:37:20.164
<v Speaker 2>it fun just like we do.

0:37:21.164 --> 0:37:23.484
<v Speaker 1>Oh, I think there's actually evidence for all of these things,

0:37:23.724 --> 0:37:26.364
<v Speaker 1>because that does happen all the time, right Like people

0:37:26.444 --> 0:37:28.804
<v Speaker 1>do say, oh you should do X or Y if

0:37:28.844 --> 0:37:30.964
<v Speaker 1>you have a funny name, if you have a memorable name.

0:37:31.164 --> 0:37:33.364
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So so, like as crazy as it sounds, there's

0:37:33.364 --> 0:37:38.004
<v Speaker 2>some actually like not very insane theories for like why

0:37:38.124 --> 0:37:40.004
<v Speaker 2>like maybe there's some realiti it's just like more salient

0:37:40.044 --> 0:37:40.164
<v Speaker 2>to you.

0:37:40.644 --> 0:37:43.404
<v Speaker 1>And as we've talked about with genetics, you know, what

0:37:43.564 --> 0:37:46.204
<v Speaker 1>kinds of traits are you more likely to select for?

0:37:47.204 --> 0:37:51.084
<v Speaker 1>You do tend to gravitate two things that are familiar, right,

0:37:51.204 --> 0:37:54.484
<v Speaker 1>and that are comfortable, that remind you of you, of

0:37:54.724 --> 0:37:56.644
<v Speaker 1>you know, your parents, of people you know. And these

0:37:56.684 --> 0:38:01.804
<v Speaker 1>sorts of biases manifest themselves incredibly early on right. We're

0:38:01.884 --> 0:38:05.724
<v Speaker 1>talking infants right that are ten months old already shows

0:38:05.804 --> 0:38:09.324
<v Speaker 1>some of these preferences for faces that are same skin

0:38:09.564 --> 0:38:12.764
<v Speaker 1>color as their parents. It's not something that happens at birth,

0:38:12.804 --> 0:38:17.124
<v Speaker 1>but it does actually start manifesting incredibly early, just because

0:38:17.164 --> 0:38:19.524
<v Speaker 1>you know it is familiar, right, it is what you know.

0:38:20.084 --> 0:38:23.044
<v Speaker 1>And so if you do have a name that is Coxburns,

0:38:23.284 --> 0:38:30.844
<v Speaker 1>then then maybe you know, you end up subconsciously consciously

0:38:31.284 --> 0:38:34.804
<v Speaker 1>on some level thinking more about those types of things.

0:38:35.084 --> 0:38:37.084
<v Speaker 1>Maybe if your last name is Judge, You're like, haha,

0:38:37.124 --> 0:38:39.364
<v Speaker 1>wouldn't it be funny if my name was Judge Judge,

0:38:40.444 --> 0:38:43.284
<v Speaker 1>or you know, if I'm doctor doctor or something like that.

0:38:43.924 --> 0:38:46.044
<v Speaker 1>So you know, on the one hand, this is just

0:38:46.284 --> 0:38:49.844
<v Speaker 1>hilarious and it seems like an artifact, and we collect

0:38:49.924 --> 0:38:52.884
<v Speaker 1>these funny names. On the other hand, there are both

0:38:53.124 --> 0:38:59.924
<v Speaker 1>psychological and historical reasons why this effect might actually be

0:39:00.844 --> 0:39:04.724
<v Speaker 1>an effect. And obviously it's weak, right, And like with anything,

0:39:05.724 --> 0:39:10.724
<v Speaker 1>things are multiply determined, and it's not like, you know,

0:39:10.884 --> 0:39:16.164
<v Speaker 1>you end up doing something just because of this one thing,

0:39:16.684 --> 0:39:21.564
<v Speaker 1>and you might have a last name that's incredibly salient

0:39:21.684 --> 0:39:23.524
<v Speaker 1>and yet do nothing.

0:39:24.164 --> 0:39:24.924
<v Speaker 2>Yeah with that.

0:39:25.604 --> 0:39:27.964
<v Speaker 1>My last name in Russian, by the way, is related

0:39:28.004 --> 0:39:32.524
<v Speaker 1>to horses, and I'm allergic to horses, so you know, definitely.

0:39:32.524 --> 0:39:34.644
<v Speaker 2>Definitely not going to be doing anything else with you

0:39:34.804 --> 0:39:36.404
<v Speaker 2>the horse line I was singing of Russian, there was

0:39:36.404 --> 0:39:39.324
<v Speaker 2>a Russian, a great Russian hurdler named Maria step on Nova,

0:39:39.564 --> 0:39:41.964
<v Speaker 2>which is sound sounds like step on over, you know,

0:39:42.084 --> 0:39:44.844
<v Speaker 2>like a hurdle, But I don't know what it means

0:39:44.884 --> 0:39:47.564
<v Speaker 2>in Russian, so that probably wouldn't be it means of

0:39:47.764 --> 0:39:51.684
<v Speaker 2>Stephen of Stephen. Okay, Yeah, I wonder if the fact

0:39:51.764 --> 0:39:55.164
<v Speaker 2>carries if you're sort of named for someone, too, right,

0:39:55.204 --> 0:39:59.244
<v Speaker 2>because then you'd have those associations like name for some

0:39:59.364 --> 0:40:01.324
<v Speaker 2>prominent person for sure.

0:40:01.364 --> 0:40:04.204
<v Speaker 1>For sure. And I'm thinking now back to kind of

0:40:04.284 --> 0:40:07.244
<v Speaker 1>early colonial days, right, think of the names, like, think

0:40:07.284 --> 0:40:11.324
<v Speaker 1>of your early US history where people were named virtues

0:40:11.564 --> 0:40:14.564
<v Speaker 1>or things that they were that you wanted them to exhibit,

0:40:14.964 --> 0:40:21.204
<v Speaker 1>you know, chastity, virtue, grace, like all of these absolutely yeah,

0:40:21.644 --> 0:40:25.844
<v Speaker 1>crazy names. Some of them are just absolutely temperance, these

0:40:25.964 --> 0:40:29.644
<v Speaker 1>names that just sound completely insane to us now, But

0:40:30.044 --> 0:40:32.284
<v Speaker 1>I think that was one of the reasons they thought

0:40:32.324 --> 0:40:35.844
<v Speaker 1>that maybe if that's your name and you're constantly temperance,

0:40:36.284 --> 0:40:39.284
<v Speaker 1>don't are you sure you want another drink? Temperance.

0:40:39.484 --> 0:40:41.044
<v Speaker 2>I feel like that could go either way. Like my

0:40:41.124 --> 0:40:43.284
<v Speaker 2>parents name me Temperance, So I'm going off the rails

0:40:43.364 --> 0:40:44.044
<v Speaker 2>like forget them.

0:40:44.724 --> 0:40:48.244
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And as I kind of, as I casually mentioned

0:40:48.244 --> 0:40:51.404
<v Speaker 1>at the beginning, you know, base rates are also important here,

0:40:51.764 --> 0:40:53.884
<v Speaker 1>right if we if we're looking at this, you need

0:40:53.964 --> 0:40:57.084
<v Speaker 1>to look at it from a statistically savvy as opposed

0:40:57.124 --> 0:40:59.524
<v Speaker 1>to kind of this name just stands out more, right,

0:40:59.644 --> 0:41:02.164
<v Speaker 1>So I gravitate toward it, and I pick and choose

0:41:02.284 --> 0:41:05.844
<v Speaker 1>the ones that I say, see nominative determinism. Yeah, So

0:41:06.284 --> 0:41:08.844
<v Speaker 1>I think that that's that that's important, And that's an

0:41:08.884 --> 0:41:11.644
<v Speaker 1>analysis that's really hard to do because where are you

0:41:11.724 --> 0:41:12.844
<v Speaker 1>going to get those data sets?

0:41:13.044 --> 0:41:17.124
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Right, you can't really randomize people to life, you know,

0:41:17.364 --> 0:41:20.964
<v Speaker 2>and see give them different names and see how things turn.

0:41:20.804 --> 0:41:22.364
<v Speaker 1>Out, right, That would be funny.

0:41:22.644 --> 0:41:25.164
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So basically the bottom line is I'm just going

0:41:25.204 --> 0:41:27.844
<v Speaker 2>to continue to believe that it's completely deterministic and text

0:41:27.924 --> 0:41:30.364
<v Speaker 2>you every hilarious name that I see in the news, and.

0:41:30.484 --> 0:41:32.364
<v Speaker 1>I will laugh every time, and I will text you

0:41:32.484 --> 0:41:35.724
<v Speaker 1>back other hilarious names. So yeah, I think for now

0:41:35.804 --> 0:41:38.484
<v Speaker 1>we can just keep on thinking this is funny for

0:41:38.604 --> 0:41:41.564
<v Speaker 1>anyone listening and wanting tips on whether what they name

0:41:41.604 --> 0:41:44.644
<v Speaker 1>their kid matters, Yes, it does, but don't please don't

0:41:44.684 --> 0:41:49.204
<v Speaker 1>name your kid temperance. That will probably backfire. Yeah, that's

0:41:49.284 --> 0:41:51.524
<v Speaker 1>probably That's probably not not what we're going for.

0:41:51.884 --> 0:41:53.524
<v Speaker 2>Name the me YouTuber instead.

0:41:53.684 --> 0:42:00.164
<v Speaker 1>Yes, exactly, exactly. Influencer, influencer, TikTok star. I'm actually officially

0:42:00.564 --> 0:42:02.484
<v Speaker 1>changing my name to TikTok star.

0:42:02.724 --> 0:42:05.444
<v Speaker 2>I feel like I feel like there's a strong chance

0:42:05.484 --> 0:42:10.204
<v Speaker 2>this has already happened. Yeah, Like when I was I

0:42:10.244 --> 0:42:12.284
<v Speaker 2>have a son, and when we were naming, I like

0:42:12.404 --> 0:42:14.564
<v Speaker 2>downloaded a bunch of data from the Social Security Administration

0:42:14.724 --> 0:42:17.444
<v Speaker 2>on naming and it was I think it was like

0:42:19.124 --> 0:42:21.604
<v Speaker 2>they gave you every name that was used at least

0:42:22.404 --> 0:42:24.404
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, three times or five times whatever, it

0:42:24.524 --> 0:42:26.524
<v Speaker 2>was you didn't They didn't include in the data names

0:42:26.524 --> 0:42:29.564
<v Speaker 2>that were only used once, and so these the names

0:42:29.564 --> 0:42:31.484
<v Speaker 2>that were used the least but three or five times

0:42:31.524 --> 0:42:33.524
<v Speaker 2>were like literally someone hitting their head on a keyboard,

0:42:33.804 --> 0:42:36.644
<v Speaker 2>and those were used like three to five times in

0:42:36.764 --> 0:42:40.644
<v Speaker 2>a given year. So there's for sure somebody has been

0:42:40.684 --> 0:42:41.284
<v Speaker 2>named TikTok.

0:42:42.004 --> 0:42:47.524
<v Speaker 1>Well, apparently there is a baby that was born this

0:42:47.764 --> 0:42:52.404
<v Speaker 1>year who was named after chat GPT. So it's a

0:42:52.444 --> 0:42:55.964
<v Speaker 1>baby girl and her name is chat Yept. It's a

0:42:56.004 --> 0:42:56.844
<v Speaker 1>Colombian baby.

0:42:57.604 --> 0:43:00.604
<v Speaker 2>So seriously, we are yes. Is this like angling for

0:43:00.644 --> 0:43:03.804
<v Speaker 2>an endorsement or just in technological enthusiasm or like what

0:43:04.004 --> 0:43:05.524
<v Speaker 2>what's find what's going on there?

0:43:06.524 --> 0:43:10.804
<v Speaker 1>I'm not sure, but on August fifteenth, chat Ept Bastidas

0:43:10.844 --> 0:43:14.364
<v Speaker 1>Geta was registered at the local National Registry.

0:43:14.684 --> 0:43:16.964
<v Speaker 2>How they used GPT five though, I don't really like

0:43:17.044 --> 0:43:19.484
<v Speaker 2>it that much. Maybe they should rename the baby cloud

0:43:19.604 --> 0:43:20.884
<v Speaker 2>or something or anthropic.

0:43:21.084 --> 0:43:23.524
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know, well for the company, you know, you

0:43:23.564 --> 0:43:30.804
<v Speaker 1>can perplexity, perplexity Gemini. Yeah yeah, but what if Gemini

0:43:30.884 --> 0:43:33.484
<v Speaker 1>isn't a Gemini. I mean that's going to be incredibly.

0:43:33.364 --> 0:43:34.364
<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of considerations.

0:43:34.404 --> 0:43:37.884
<v Speaker 1>This is serious, this is a serious business. So listeners

0:43:38.204 --> 0:43:42.364
<v Speaker 1>please consider choose wisely before choosing a name. But yeah,

0:43:42.444 --> 0:43:44.524
<v Speaker 1>this is this is you know, something that I will

0:43:44.604 --> 0:43:47.324
<v Speaker 1>continue looking at the literature and see if any interesting

0:43:47.404 --> 0:43:50.244
<v Speaker 1>studies come out, because I do. I can't help but

0:43:50.324 --> 0:43:52.284
<v Speaker 1>feel that there might be something to this, right, because

0:43:52.284 --> 0:43:54.684
<v Speaker 1>there are so many reasons why, and because there are

0:43:54.804 --> 0:43:57.684
<v Speaker 1>some data sets that show that, yes, there there is

0:43:58.284 --> 0:44:00.284
<v Speaker 1>kind of a some sort of an effect.

0:44:00.364 --> 0:44:04.524
<v Speaker 2>And it's interesting. You're something kind of ridiculous. It's probably

0:44:04.644 --> 0:44:07.924
<v Speaker 2>not true in psychology in this case. Behind this ridiculous thing,

0:44:07.964 --> 0:44:10.764
<v Speaker 2>there are actually some pretty sort of almost common sense

0:44:10.804 --> 0:44:12.764
<v Speaker 2>like ah, someone's just more aware of this profession, or

0:44:12.804 --> 0:44:15.604
<v Speaker 2>people say you should do this, you should look at that, right, Yeah, yep,

0:44:15.724 --> 0:44:17.244
<v Speaker 2>which is not that hard to understand.

0:44:17.764 --> 0:44:21.764
<v Speaker 1>So there you have at people, whether it's genetics or names.

0:44:21.884 --> 0:44:27.724
<v Speaker 1>Today's episode is all about things that determine your future

0:44:27.924 --> 0:44:31.204
<v Speaker 1>and the future of the world. Thanks so much for

0:44:31.324 --> 0:44:35.124
<v Speaker 1>being such an amazing co host, David. I hope you

0:44:35.364 --> 0:44:37.764
<v Speaker 1>will come back both as a guest and as a

0:44:37.804 --> 0:44:41.924
<v Speaker 1>guest co host when Nate inevitably ends up in Norway

0:44:42.124 --> 0:44:43.244
<v Speaker 1>and can't host the show.

0:44:43.604 --> 0:44:44.364
<v Speaker 2>And I would love to.

0:44:52.124 --> 0:44:54.004
<v Speaker 1>Let us know what you think of the show. Reach

0:44:54.084 --> 0:44:57.204
<v Speaker 1>out to us at Risky Business at pushkin dot fm.

0:44:57.804 --> 0:45:00.044
<v Speaker 1>And by the way, if you're a Pushkin Plus subscriber,

0:45:00.284 --> 0:45:03.004
<v Speaker 1>we have some bonus content for you that's coming up

0:45:03.164 --> 0:45:06.084
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<v Speaker 1>that premium content and add free listening across Pushkin's entire

0:45:15.364 --> 0:45:19.044
<v Speaker 1>network of shows. Risky Business is hosted by me Maria

0:45:19.124 --> 0:45:22.924
<v Speaker 1>Kannakova and by my fabulous co host Nate Silver. The

0:45:23.044 --> 0:45:26.404
<v Speaker 1>show is a co production of Pushkin Industries and iHeartMedia.

0:45:27.204 --> 0:45:30.844
<v Speaker 1>This episode was produced by Isabelle Carter. Our associate producer

0:45:30.964 --> 0:45:34.084
<v Speaker 1>is Sonia Gerwit. Sally helm is our editor, and our

0:45:34.124 --> 0:45:38.724
<v Speaker 1>executive producer is Jacob Goldstein. Mixing by Sarah Buguer. If

0:45:38.804 --> 0:45:40.964
<v Speaker 1>you like the show, please rate and review us so

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<v Speaker 1>other people can find us too. Thanks for tuning in.